The Kevin Sheehan Show - My Favorite Interview Of '26...So Far

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

The show today is a listen-back to Kevin's favorite interview of the year so far with the backstory of why it took so long to get it done. Kirk Cousins appeared as Kevin's guest on February 13th and talked extensively about his days and memories of playing in DC.   For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. The show's presenting sponsor is always Windonation. If you need new Windows, I highly recommend calling Windonation. 86690 Nation is the number.

You can also go to Window Nation.com. During the month of July, they're offering 50% off everything, all Windows styles, with no money down, no payments, and no interest. two full years. If you've been thinking about new windows, at the very least, give them a chance to come out and give you a free, no obligation in-home estimate. 86690 Nation, window nation.com. All right. I am off the rest of this week, Tuesday through Friday. I did a show yesterday with Tommy. That shows available. But I'm leaving you with one more show for this week, or easy access to a show that ran back in February of this year.

And the reason I'm leaving it for you today is this was my favorite interview, my favorite conversation of the year so far. We still have half the year left or nearly half the year left. So I may find a better conversation, a better interview. But many of you really, really enjoyed this. So I'm just going to leave it for you to listen to instead of having go back and find it if you never listen to it in the first place. And if you did listen to it in the first place, maybe you want to listen to it again. But this was the show back in mid-February when I had

Kirk Cousins on the podcast. It was Kirk's first appearance on any show that I've been involved in since 2014. That was the year before he was named full-time starter by Jay Gruden in 2015. He had come on the radio show that Tommy and I did together, the sports fix, a few times since being drafted in 2012. And then in 2015, our competing station, WJFK 1067, the fan, actually offered Kirk Cousins before he was named the starter in 2015. They offered him a regular appearance on their station on, I don't know, if it was Monday or Tuesday mornings.

I think it may have been Monday mornings after the game. With Grant Paulson, and I forget who was doing the show with Grant. It may have been Danny Rui at the time. I think it probably was. And just a little bit of a backstory about this. I think I've shared this with you guys before, but perhaps you don't remember, and maybe I have not shared this. But in the spring of 2015,

Tommy and I were doing the sports fix together. We'd been doing it at that point for seven years, something like that. And every year in the spring, early summer, our program director would come to us and say, hey, tell me who you'd like to have as a regular guest during football season. You know, the coach is going to appear on Doc show with Coach Thompson and the quarterback may be appearing here. Tommy and I had the coach a couple of times. I know we had Zorn for two years. We had McNabb one year.

But that particular year, I remember, the coach was, Jay Gruden was going to appear, I think, with Steve and Andy, with Zabe and Andy in the afternoons. And the quarterback going into that year, we all thought would be RG3, and he did not do a regular weekly appearance. and the program director suggested, I remember Ryan Carrigan and a few others, and I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I and Tommy will back me up on this. I actually threw out, and this was like in the spring of 2015, I said, you know, if we can't get the coach or we can't get the starting quarterback, why don't we get Kirk Cousins to come on with us? And the program director looked at me like I had four eyes and said, why? and I said, well, there's a possibility after Robert Griffin III's season last year,

that he might be the starter before too long. And even if he isn't, he'll have great insight as to what's going on with the offense and with our G3s play, et cetera. And they said, no. And they said, no, come up with somebody else. And I remember, I said, fine, I want DeAngelo Hall. And I think that was the year we ended up with Pierre Garcone. who came on the show, and that turned into a bit of a disaster.

But anyway, at the same time, WJFK, and I think Grant Paulson himself, had the same exact idea. Their program director said, sure, let's go for it. And Kirk committed to doing a weekly appearance on that station, and then he was named starter right before the season started. So it was, you know, it was great anticipation. It was great vision. I don't think they could predict that he was going to be the starter. I wasn't predicting that he was going to be the starter to start the year.

But I thought there was a chance that he could certainly be the starter at some point during the 2015 season. And the rest is history. And he appeared on their show for the three seasons that he was the starting quarterback before he signed in Minnesota. And he remained loyal to that. I mean, he and I have had many conversations over the years and I many times. I asked him and he said, don't want to do it. I still feel a loyalty to the station that gave me the first regular appearance. And I, by the way, totally respected that.

Totally respected it. And I stopped asking him four or five years ago to come on. Because I knew that that was what his answer would be. And I think really he was avoiding DC in general. I don't know how many times he went on with the other station over the years. but we stayed in touch. We continued to text back and forth occasionally have a conversation here or there. He knew and is always known that I was a huge fan and a big supporter of his when he was here.

He always appreciated that, no doubt. And then when Atlanta released him, when the season, you know, shortly after the season ended, I guess had he been released, I think he knew he was going to be released. No, he had been released at that point. I just said, hey, I want you to come on now. It's time that maybe, you know, it's been a while, it's been forever, and he just said, great, I'll do it. And so we ended up having a conversation about a lot of what went on during his days in Washington.

And I told all you guys this before, I'm telling you, one of the highest quality people that any of us have ever dealt with with any athletes in town. and there have been lots of great ones. It's not like he's the only one. But just, you know, first-rate person, super, super humble, super ability to sort of read the room and know what to say and what not to say. And that's why I love the fact that he opened up about a lot of things. And there were some things that he was not as willing to open up about.

And some of those things I've had conversations with him and others about some of those early days when P&RG3 were here together as young players as rookies and as second year players, etc. But anyway, with that said, let's get to it. I'll let you listen to the way it sounded back in mid-February of this year. Also want to just mention, if you want to bet the World Cup, do it with MyBooky. my bookie.ag or my bookie.com promo code Kevin D.C for a betback bonus. That means your first World Cup wager up to $500. If it hits, you get paid. If it doesn't hit, you get your money back.

So there's no risk in the wager. If you're betting the World Cup somewhere else or if you just want to bet the World Cup, mybooky.ag or mybooky.com promo code Kevin D.C. All right, Kirk Cousins, as it was delivered back on February 13th of this year, we'll get to it right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Joining me right now as promised, former Skins quarterback Kirk Cousins. No long introduction necessary for you, Kirk. You know, mostly because everybody listening remembers your six years here,

but also in part, and you know this, been a huge fan, and my listeners, whether they've desired it or not, they've been getting a semi-regular dose of Kirk Cousins talk since you left here, which, by the way, has now been eight years. Can you believe it's been that long? You know, the years go fast. The days have been long in pro football, but the years go really fast, and I think each year goes a little faster than the one before it, so I'm grateful to have been able to stack up 14 years in this league, but it doesn't feel like that long ago. I was quarterbacking in Washington,

and, you know, Julie and I were just kind of getting started. So it's been quite a journey. When people ask you about your time in D.C., what do you say? Tremendous memories. We loved the city. Julie and I went back. We played the commanders just after Christmas in the 2024 season. I was just backing up.

And commanders wanted a last play of the game in overtime. And we were staying at the University of Maryland, and we were kind of the night game, so I was sitting around the hotel, and I just called my wife, and I said, you know, we got to come back here, and we got to go down memory lane, we got to see all the spots, see some of the people that we knew here. And so we made it a point last off season to come back, and I had been back for a couple things here and there in D.C.,

but not to be intentional about going back to all the old places. And so that was a really good trip for us. We loved it, and it just, again, affirmed how much we loved D.C. and the memories we made, and just a difference it made in my life, not just my football career, my life to be able to be drafted there, be around the coaches I was around, the teammates I was around. It took my life on a whole different trajectory than what I otherwise was going to get to do. I remember that you used to say that after games, you and Julie would actually drive back through the city. Yeah, we would go, rather than go 495 around south or north, we would just go

right through. And it would take us around RFK. It would take us in view of the capital. And it was just, I mean, it had to be one of the prettiest drives you could. have coming home from a pro football game. And I'm so thrilled that the commander's new stadium is going to be at the old RFK site because it just seems like the perfect place to put it and to kind of be in the shadow of the Capitol and the National Mall. Just a really cool, really cool deal. So great memories of that, especially driving in the conversion van, you know, some games.

Right. You know, some of those years we hadn't had kids yet, so it was truly just a simpler time. And just a special city, I think really an underwark. rated metropolitan area. When you look at, you know, I've traveled a lot, I've been around a lot of other communities over the years. I just think D.C. doesn't get the credit it deserves. I think it's as good as city as there is in our country. All right. So I think you have been one of the more interesting players of your era from this perspective. You've obviously been a very good player, and you've been a player that's been incredibly well-liked, highly respected from peers and those in football. But when it

comes to fans, you've been one of the more polarizing players, I think, of the last decade. Do you have a theory as to why that is? Yeah, I think there were a few variables that were kind of all coming together to the degree that that happened that created that. I think one, being a fourth round pick, you know, if you're a top five pick, it would seem you're kind of given the benefit of the doubt, you're somewhat innocent until proven guilty. I think when you're a fourth round pick, there's a little bit of the opposite. You know, I think it was something that while, you know, we had success, it tended to be, you know,

it wasn't 15 and 2. It wasn't 14 and 3. It wasn't so much success that, you know, I'm holding up a Lombardi and there's really no, no room left to criticize. I think if you go 9 and 8, 9 and 7, you know, you're still giving yourself that room to be, to be criticized some. So, you know, and I think it's a little bit of all of that combined. And then I think when you do, you know, go on franchise tags and you don't go the traditional path of just signing a five-year deal, it probably led for more time to discuss it than if you just sign the five-year deal, everybody else signed, maybe it, you know, the conversation doesn't linger as long as you.

if you're going year to year. Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that, you know, the franchise tag process that started, you know, in 2016 and went a second year in 2017 tied with what you described. You know, it's one of the things that I've always loved about you is I consider you to be really self-aware, even though I don't think you pay attention to a lot of the conversation about you, but the lack of like significant postseason success or, you know, you had the 11-win season in Minnesota, but, you know, consistently. And, you know, one of the things, and I've been sitting here making excuses for you for years,

and I really haven't had to stretch to do it, but man, the number of seasons that you have played where it's come down to a kick here or a fumble here, not necessarily by you, and it's like one game. I feel like you were on teams and you played at a level that should have at least put you into the postseason more than it did? Well, yeah, I mean, it's a team game, and, you know, that's what makes football so great. And there are moments where it helps you, too, where you don't play great, and you come away with a win because people may play around you. It can also go the other way.

But, you know, I do think that, you know, if you can have a bunch of 13 and 4 seasons, it does help because winning is what it's all about. I'm grateful that in my year starting, I've also been able to avoid the 4 and 13 seasons. that a lot of good starting quarterbacks have had when they get on teams that maybe don't have the pieces around that they need. Really good quarterbacks can go 4 and 13. And so I'm proud of the fact that we've kind of been able to avoid those types of years by just being resilient and playing through things and always find in a way to still be in the

conversation near the end. But yeah, for whatever reason, several seasons where I've been playing, you know, we either missed the playoffs by one game or one play. And, you know, that's always been tough to swallow. Yeah. Dustin Hopkins missed a kick in London, Daniel Carlson missed three field goals in a game at Green Bay. I've got your list here. You don't have to go through it. You know, I know that you were surprised when Mike picked you in the fourth round of the 2012 draft,

especially after they picked Robert at number two. Do you remember when you first started to realize that getting drafted here by Mike and having Kyle as your offensive coordinator and the other coaches that were on the same? staff at that time. Do you remember when you started to realize actually this is going to be a good thing for me? My dad would not be considered a football guy, but he does have an ability to just have a sense of where things are going, maybe just a sense of human nature or a sense of leadership. And about a couple hours after I was picked, my dad said, because I was a little bit disappointed, it felt like a dead end being picked by Washington. And my dad said, Kirk, Mike Shanahan picked you.

and he not only picked you, he kind of went off the reservation to pick you. So that means he really believes in you and was willing to kind of stick his neck out to believe in you. And he coached John Elway. He coached Steve Young. He worked with people like Mike Holmgren, and he's in a system with Bill Walsh. And so everywhere he's been, there's been offensive success. And I think if he's like doubling down on you, that's a really good sign, even if it is a dead end. That's a really good sign.

And then he pulled up somebody who's, I don't even know who it was, but someone who was fairly knowledgeable about systems and offenses and coaches and players had made a comment before the draft that Kirk wouldn't likely go to Washington, but that would be the perfect place for him from a system standpoint, knowing Kyle Shanahan and the system he coaches, that would be a great fit for Kirk's style of play. And so my dad sent me that comment as well to make the point that, it may be a dead end, but it is a really good fit.

And time proved him right. And it did change my entire trajectory of my career, the fact that I went there, even though at the time I thought it was a dead end. So I want to flush some things out about your time here, because, you know, many have had very different opinions about a lot of different things involving you, because you were. You were polarizing here, just like you were in Minnesota. And I'll start with this.

I think people have had the impression over the years that the quarterback situation during those years was chaos. You know, Dan and Bruce loved Robert. Mike and Kyle loved you. You and Robert didn't necessarily get along. What's the truth about those days? Well, I don't know that I was necessarily ready to play right away. So I think it was in my best interest to be able to be a backup. And the opposite is true for Robert.

I mean, he showed he was ready to play right away. never forget. Week one, rookie year at the Superdome, on the backup. My lockers next to Robert as we're getting ready for the game. I mean, I was a playaway, I guess you could say, but I wasn't exactly disappointed that I wasn't starting in the sense. I felt like this the big stage. We're going up against Drew Brees. Probably best for me to ease into this thing. And then to watch Robert do what he did that day and that entire season, I was really in awe of the no fear and just the fierce competitiveness. editor and his ability to go out there with confidence as a rookie and play like he belonged

and like he had been there for a long time. And I took a lot from that. And you talk to Kyle Shanahan or Matt Lefleur to this day. They'll tell you that, that it was really impressive what he did with a lot of pressure, a lot of expectations on a big stage. It was not too big for him. And so we'll always say that. And so I look through it as really he was such a larger-than-life player and person

and brand that I kind of just wanted to stay out of the way. I didn't want to be someone who was pulling on him or asking for things from him. And so I just tried to not be a distraction and just tried to kind of stay in my lane and make sure that I wasn't trying to be someone who was getting things from him because I'm sure he had plenty of those people. And so it was also really helpful to come into meetings. And they have Kyle and Matt and Mike, they have to teach to a rookie as a starting quarterback. So everything was getting taught at a pace that enabled me as a backup to learn it alongside the starter.

Whereas if you go into a room with Joe Montana in his 12th year as a starting quarterback, it's going to feel like you know, you're just getting talked right over your head because they're not trying to teach to you. They're talking to a guy who's been there for a decade. So it did me a lot of service to be able to have it taught to us at a pace that we could learn it the right way. And then when Robert got hurt, that also afforded me the opportunity in the offseason. get so many reps with the starting offense and get a lot of experience your LTA's and training camp.

So there were a lot of things out of my control that just kind of fell in place that helped me behind the scenes to develop and get some of the things that you need as a quarterback to make it in this league long term. Really interesting point about the benefit of being in a situation where there are two rookie quarterbacks and the coaches have to teach to two rookie quarterbacks versus, you know, a longtime vet and a rookie. That makes total sense. You know, despite you saying you weren't ready when the season began,

you did get called on very late in the season and very late in a must-win game against the Ravens. When Robert got hurt initially, you threw the touchdown pass, I think to Pierre, then you scored on a quarterback draw two-point conversion. You guys won that game in overtime. And then the next week, you were the starting quarterback. and I know you remember the Cleveland game. Tell us about it. Well, I remember driving home from the Baltimore game, excited about it we were able to win, but also kind of unsure if I'd be playing that next week. And it was all week it was kind of unsure,

and we didn't really make a decision until Saturday that Robert was going to sit. So it was kind of getting practice reps throughout the week and talking in meetings. It wasn't too clear. but I remember Mike on maybe Friday afternoon or Saturday morning I met with him and there was no concern from him. I mean, we couldn't afford to lose a game to make the playoffs and I didn't feel any tension for Mike and that was really calming for me. I mean, he just spoke very matter of fact. He said, Kurt, we're going to put you in a good position. We're going to be not asking you to do too much. We'll run some bootlegs.

We have a good plan for him. You just stay within yourself. I mean, it was very like he knew the future before it was going to happen. And that was calming for me, but there was a good way. was also like, how can you be this call, Mike? And then sure enough, in the game, Kyle called 11 bootlegs. And it just put me in a position to be successful. He didn't ask me to be a 12-year veteran. He asked me to be a guy who was making his first start. He called a game to put the wind at my back. And it helped that it was 50-some degrees that day in Cleveland in December.

Right. Again, certain variables, it just helped make that day go well. And so it was a pretty special way to start, you know, your NFL career as a starter. And I had had a tough outing when I first went in against the Falcons when Griff got hurt. Right earlier in the year. Yeah, through two interceptions. Yeah, through two interceptions, wasn't able to bring the team back. So I had already kind of been punched in the mouth. And so it was nice to, you know, have a game where you felt like, okay, I can do this.

You know, we're building something. And that was a great shot in the arm for me. Well, you know, Mike's talked about that game many times with me on, on the show over the years. and the real hullabaloo started after the game because those 11 bootlegs without any zone reeds being called at all was not a popular choice among the griffins apparently. Do you remember that part or that aspect of post-Cleveland? Yeah, I don't remember all that. I do remember late in the game.

We kind of got a lead and we were trying to run the clock and he did call his own read. It's just that the read made me hand it off. So Kyle told me when he was let go, he said, Kirk, I will always. carry the zone read with me. Everywhere I go, no matter what the quarterback's ability is, he said, I have learned with Robert and with his zone read, how effective it is. Will it be my main staple play? Probably not, depending on the players.

But he said, there's a place for this. It really puts a defense in a bind. And so he did call it with me on occasion. And even after Kyle left, we would occasionally call it in the high red zone. And I'd get a 20-yard run for a touchdown. So we had some success with it. And he did call it in that game. It's just that I handed it off.

so it didn't look like he called it. But it was a big part of our staple plays and identity and had a lot of success with it. A lot of our play actions were built off of that same action, making it look the same. You know, the key is just being able to, if the ball is in your hands, just trying to avoid the hits. But I've learned that inside an NFL pocket

can be just as violent as when you're running. So it's violent no matter where you are in the field, and you just kind of have to be smart about avoiding those hits best you can no matter where you are. Such a great point. I remember Mike and Kyle both saying it's one of the best play action sort of looks, and it's probably more protective than a normal dropback, which proved to be true, and it never did go away. It's still a big part of the game.

I think it was very impressive. You know, that Kyle didn't really have a ton of background with it. Mike did, because Mike was an option quarterback when he was in college, but to be able to kind of create that on the fly and trial and error and see what worked and kind of make it work for what we had personnel-wise, not just the quarterback position, but on the whole team. it was a bit of a master class in coaching and adapting and being inventive and innovative. It was really good. And I guess I kind of got a front row seat to just seeing it unfold as we went. Well, yeah.

And add to that, you know, Kyle introduced the pistol into the NFL. That formation had never been a formation used in the NFL. He got it from Chris Alt at the University of Nevada. So, Kirk, the Seattle playoffs. game. You know, a game that honestly lives in infamy around here. You were there for all of the drama, you know, a big lead early, RG3 limping around the field. What are your memories of the Seattle playoff game that early January afternoon in Landover? I remember getting a 14-0 lead and just going right down the field on a good Seattle defense. Kyle's, you know, first 15, his plan and

Robert's execution of it with the offense was just outstanding. And then Robert's, it kind of tweaked his knee. I believe on one of the last plays of that run, like the 14-0 run. It was one of the last couple plays of that run. He tweaked his knee, and then the rest of the game had kind of, it kind of had been re-agravated. It was obviously tender going in, which so many guys deal with a lot of different things when they're playing, but he kind of retweaked it. And then we just weren't able to kind of grasp it. Seattle started to kind of figure out how to defend us and it's a distant memory now, but it did get away from us. And that was a tough loss because it felt like we had it at home. And it was, you know, from there then, you know,

kind of trying to figure out, you know, what is what is your two look like? Did you think at halftime of that game that you were heading out to start the second half? You know, the conversation really started like the week of the Cleveland game, you know, trying to get a gauge on was Robert ready or not. And I remember he definitely wanted to go. that Cleveland game and Mike made the decision like, no, we can't do that. It just doesn't look strong enough yet. And so, you know, he's a competitor and he's tough. And he was a warrior that whole year. And so then the next week we go to Philly and to his credit, he wanted to be out there. And there was no fear and he was going to do all he could to be out there. I believe our head trainer was going

over to his house to get extra treatment. I mean, there was no stone unturned. He was putting in all the work he could. And he went out there at Philly and while he wasn't feeling 100 percent, he wanted to be out there and he played great that game, got a huge win on the road in Philly to keep us in the playoff hunt. And then at Dallas on Sunday night, same kind of thing. He wasn't feeling great, but really wanted to be out there, campaigned to be out there. And he had just played so great against Philly, even though he was less than perfect health-wise. And so did it again. You know, we did a great job. And that came too. Robert played great, ran the ball great and made the plays we needed him won. So the thought was, you know, every week the passes, he's going to get

stronger. And then I think he just retweaked it in that game. And, you know, his same kind of thing. He wanted to be out there. And so it was unfortunate how it all turned out. All right. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back with Kirk, we'll get to 2015, his first full season starting and the you like that game. We'll get to that and a lot more after these words from a few of our sponsors. 2015, Washington 31, Tampa Bay 30, the legendary. You like that game. This segment of the show is brought to you by Window Nation. If you've been thinking about new windows, all I ask is give Window Nation a chance to come out and give you an in-home estimate.

It's free. They're not going to obligate you to anything. They won't pressure you into making a decision. If you choose to move forward with Window Nation, right now they're offering buy four windows get for free. Plus, don't pay anything for two full years. No down payment, no monthly payments, no interest charged for two years. And if you act now, you'll get an extra 10% off for Valentine's Day. Don't wait to put an end to your window problems. Schedule a free in-home estimate today. Call them at 86690 Nation or head to windownation.com. So glad to have Kirk Cousers. on the show today. It's been a long time since Kirk has been on, and he is being very generous with his time. It's much appreciated. So let's fast forward to 2015. You win the job in training camp.

Jay's always said you can't fool the locker room. The decision was easy. You guys start out two and four, a little bit rocky, and you've got Tampa coming to town before a bye week. And on the other side of the by week, Kirk, if you remember this, it's the Patriots in Foxborough. Now, Jay's told me that he believes his job was on the line that day. Did you think you were playing to keep your starting job? I don't know that I said that to myself in the moment. My wife will tell you that she knew that because she was listening to the outside noise because she loves it.

She loves the entertainment, and she has an ability to hear all the criticism and not let it ruin her day. So she loves it. She engages with it because it doesn't get her down. So she had heard, you know, basically that, and she still uses the term to this day, that it was a quote-unquote code red. It was. That's what Jay called it.

Yeah. It better play well or we're done. So, you know, you have a bye week after the game. And looking back now as a season veteran, you know what that means. At the time, I think I was ignorant enough to just take it one day, one week at a time. But yes, looking back, I would have probably been benched had we, you know,

not come back in that game. So I remember fumbling to go down 24. nothing. They returned it for a touchdown. I'm pulling grass out of my face mask as I walk back to the sideline and getting booze from our home stadium, which were deserved booze. And just sitting down the bench, I remember the thought of cost of my mind that maybe I've surpassed my level of competency. Maybe I am a backup in this league, and I've found my ceiling, and by failing as a starter, it tells me that I'm not good enough to do that. And so I'm grateful to be able to be a backup maybe in the years ahead, and that's my ceiling, and it's

nice to at least know that. And in a way, that probably just took the pressure off. kind of let go, thinking that if I'm a backup, I'm a backup, and that's okay. And we went out there and we scored the next drive and just 24-7 and then we scored again in the third quarter. And now it's really within reach and our defense is getting stops. And next thing, you know, we win the game 31-30. And for whatever reason, you know, at the time going the by week, I just thought that was one win.

You know, we got to do it a whole lot more up ahead. But for whatever reason, it felt like that game kind of put the wind at our back and changed the tone of the season, the course of the season and gave us the confidence we needed to go on a run. By the way, correct me if I'm wrong. I think the first score was actually a zone read that you kept and scored on. It was. Yeah.

So to the point earlier we were talking about, it still was a play call that we used. I ran for probably two or three touchdowns in Washington on zone read from relatively far out from the – it wasn't like on the one-yard line. Detroit. But it was always a very effective point call in the high red zone. And it's – you know, if you're a drop-back passer like me, no one's looking for it. So if you do call it, odds are the D&'s going to close and you've got a chance to an explosive. Yeah, I think you had a lot of.

long one against the Lions. So from that moment on, I mean, the offense really took off in 15, 16, and really in 2017, if you don't have all those injuries to the offensive line, it's going to be another prolific offensive season. Do you have a favorite game or two, in addition to that you like that game, which was super memorable? Do you have a favorite game from that three-year stretch? Yeah, I think at Philly to win the division on Saturday night, when.

and I inexplicably took a knee instead of spiking it at the end of the half. You know, Jay doesn't blame that on you. He blames it on Pierre. Yeah, I think it goes a lot of different directions. Colt McCoy made, Colt McCoy made the best point. We were at practice later that next week, and he said, Kirk, one time in practice in Cleveland, when Eric Mangini was our head coach, we were repping a situation like this, and I knew to go spike it, but we huddled. The clock was already stopped, and so we huddled, and I came out of the huddle, and because we weren't,

rushing. When you spike it, you're always in a hurry and you never huddle. The reason you'd be spiking it is because the clock is running. Right. And so it's really odd to spike it out of a huddle. And so he said, I think you just did it because your motor, your instincts as an athlete and natally are to calmly walk out of a huddle and just take a knee.

So you were just doing it on autopilot when really, you know, spiking it would only ever be on a non-huddle. So that made sense to me and would kind of explain why I did such a silly thing. But to win that game and play the way we did with so much at stake on the road, was a big one. I think beating the Packers on Sunday night football the next year,

but they, you know, Aaron Rogers was Aaron Rogers that night. So, you know, it's not like he had a bad game. So to go toe to toe to toe with him and play at a level that enabled us to win was a really fun one. And, you know, the London game was tough that year at the Bengals. It was so fun to go out and kind of spread it around and light it up and move the ball up and down the field and just compete. And I always remember winning at Seattle in 17. We were pretty thin down on the O line and finding a way to win there, even though it was ugly. So a lot of fun games and, you know, it really built the foundation for me as a player to have those experiences. Yeah, I had the Dallas Thanksgiving Day game, which you guys did not win, but I think you had just an outrageous day.

And I think Dustin missed a couple field goals and the defense couldn't get off the field. But that was an electric atmosphere on Thanksgiving Day. But the Seattle game was the other one I had written down because you guys basically went in with like three or four offensive linemen that hadn't played. Do you remember your two big throws who they were two on that final drive? Yeah, I remember throwing to Brian Quick. Right. It was like a little inside slant and then a double move to go out to the red line. And then Jay Gruden gets a lot of credit because we called Seams,

and then the outsider series were supposed to run comebacks. And I look over the sideline as Jay's giving me the signals, and he says, or maybe he said in the headset, he said, give Josh Dox and a go ball. So basically, you know, audible to Josh to change his route from a comeback to a go. and that was such a great call by Jay. He had such a good feel in game for how to do certain things based on how they had been defending us.

So sure enough, I had the line of scrimmage changed it quickly to give Josh a go ball, and then he made an unbelievable catch to get it down to the one yard line and then we ran it in. So we loved it when Jay would have those little, you know, subtle changes to make that were the difference maker. Yeah. So what about, you know, I've watched you over the years, you're very hard on yourself, and you remember sometimes the worst more than the best.

I mean, you've already, you know, the Philadelphia game that clinched a division where you threw for 360, and you're talking about the play at the end of the half. So hit me with a game or two that were the roughest for you here. Yeah, I think the first one far and away would be the Giants at home at the end of the 16th season. Just we didn't play a great game. We, you know, didn't seem like we were attacking the same way we had been during the season. I didn't play well. Steve Pagnola's pressures kind of unsettled us,

and then the final drive of the game still had a great chance to win it. Our defense played awesome that day. And then throwing interception versus two-man, leaving the ball, you know, didn't lead Pierre Garcone enough across the middle. And that one still haunts me to this day. It was a difference in making the playoffs or not. And it was just a difficult, difficult ending to what would have been a really special season.

So, you know, it's plays like that and moments like that that I think then left the door open for a lot of criticism. And if you go out there and go down and score in that moment and win that game, you know, maybe it's different. So that's where you say, hey, the ball's in my hand. And I made the player, didn't make the play. And I got nobody to look at it by myself. That's fair.

But here I go again. Although I've got backing on this one because Jay's mentioned this a few times over the years, a painful game for him too, obviously. But your defense was terrible that year. And on that given day, they gave up like, 175 yards on the ground to a giant team that had nothing to play for and played pretty vanilla. It doesn't change the ending. It doesn't change that the offense that day didn't put up enough yards and enough points,

but Jay's always referred to that as a team loss. I wonder if that game had gone differently, if it would have turned out differently for you. I'm going to ask you about that when we come back. more Kirk Cousins after these words from a few of our sponsors. Cousins on second down to the outside. It's complete. First out and one. Reed for a Redskins touchdown.

Kirk Cousins is thrown 298 career touchdown passes, 19 of them, to Jordan Reed over a very short period of time. I'll ask Kirk about Jordan and some of his other Washington teammates coming up. If you get a chance to rate and review this podcast and you haven't done it already, it's really easy to do, especially on Apple and Spotify, and it helps us out a lot. They both give you a chance to give us up to five stars if you think the show deserves it. Also, following the podcast, hit the plus button or the follow button. That helps us out as well. So we continue with Kirk Cousins. I'm wondering if you guys beat the Giants at the end of 2016 and go to the playoffs, even if you lose in the first round of the postseason,

rather than the season ending the way it did in very disappointing fashion. I'm wondering if you think there would have been a better chance that Dan and Bruce would have come to you with a better offer that would have led to you signing it and staying in Washington. Maybe. Honestly, if we're doing that, I can take a different route. I think 2015 after that season was probably more when they were still kind of trying to figure out if I was worth it. And that's fine. I basically had done it for 10 games, and so I understood their concern. And my agent said, we're happy to play on the franchise tag. I don't think that's a negative for us. So if it's kind of a way for both sides to kind of have some time to figure this out, this could be a really good thing. So that's how we viewed it in 16.

My agent did call in May of 2017, and he said, Kirk, the offer they just sent is an offer that says they're ready to do this. So he said, if you want to do it, they're ready. You know, there is no low-balling anymore. Those days are over. Like, they're ready to do business. So if you want to, you can. And that was when then in July, I went on the sports talk and did the show to explain why I wasn't ready to do business because I said, you know, Sean McVeigh is left. And there's a lot of unknowns.

and I don't know that it's best for me to lock myself in with a lot of changes happen right now. Let's see how this year goes and kind of go from there. And so I don't really do it as they didn't give me the offer. It was more the year before where they were still unsure. Right. Everybody understood at the end of 2015 that that offer was a low-ball offer and anybody that could do second-grade math understood why you decided to play

on the franchise tag in 20. But after 2016, the offer that got reported anyway was $53 million guaranteed from Washington. And that was an offer that ultimately was $30 million less than what you would get a year later from Minnesota. Yeah, and that's again, every year it's going to go up. So, no, I didn't really take that too personally. I think Bruce was trying to make the point that, hey, we're here to do business now and he doesn't want to. And that was true. I basically said, yeah, I appreciate your guys willingness now to do this,

but I'm at a place now with Shaw McVeigh leaving where I'm better off just kind of playing this out and seeing where it goes. I still thought that meant that Washington would be there for me after the season, not realizing that they can't just wait on me and wait on me and wait on me and be left at the altar. So what I do regret about the Giants game as much as anything, and Shaw McVeigh would disagree is I felt if we win that game and we're in the playoff, Sean McVeigh doesn't become a head coach. Oh, we're still...

So we're still playing. He's not available. The Rams don't interview him. They don't have the ability to, you know, spend as much time doing their homework on him. And now they don't take the risk of hiring a 30, 31-year-old head coach. So my thought was if we win that game, Sean's back for 2017. Because Sean's back for 2017, I sign a long-term deal. And yeah, maybe Sean becomes a head coach after 17, but we have another year together.

And who knows where that goes. Who knows where that goes for Jordan Reed? Who knows where that goes for a lot of people? So, you know, that's, that's a lot of people. this. So, you know, that's the part I regret is that I, by losing that game against the Giants, I gave Sean the chance to go interview in L.A.

and the rest of history. That's interesting. You know, remember, Kyle has admitted that he wanted you, you know, in that first year and was going to wait for you the next year. Why do you think ultimately, you know, with you

on that second franchise tag? I mean, I'll tell you as much as I loved you, I advocated, well, if you're not going to sign him long term. He's going to hit unrestricted free agency. You should trade him right now. Jay probably to this day, Jay says that same thing. Exactly. And why do you think you weren't traded? That's a great question. I don't have a good answer. I'm confident at the time they probably weren't going to trade me to Kyle. I think that was probably off the table. That was where I would have wanted to go if possible.

And so, you know, maybe they didn't have offers that made sense to them. I don't know the answer to that. I guess it's not a question that I really could speak to. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head on that one. All right, I want to talk about some of the players that you played with and even some of the coaches that you played for. I'm going to mention names, and I want the first thing that comes to your mind. The first one is Jordan Reed.

He's a Hall of Famer if he stays healthy, and if he can be in a system that's, you know, where they're able to get in the football and all that. And by system, I guess I mean all the pieces around you that you need. But he's as talented a player at his position as I've played with, and I play with Justin Jefferson at X receiver. But when you talk about a Y or an F receiver and a tight end and what you're asking to do,

it was so unique his ability and the mismatches you could get because Justin Jefferson is getting covered by the top corner on the defense. So while Justin's special, the guy covering him is usually pretty good too. What really helped with Jordan Reed was he's being defended by safeties, by linebackers, and so his unique abilities are even more glaring because the guy covering him is not the top corner on the team. So just the mismatches and the favorable looks we got was just a difference maker. It was hard with the concussions and keeping him healthy, but he was so fun to play with. He's truly, I think, you know, after Sean Taylor, he's probably the greatest what-if in franchise history.

You're not the only person to think that he would have become. And I believe one of his last concussions was a preseason. It was. And so when you look at, you know, why are guys sitting in the preseason? It's like, well, things happen like Jordan Reed. Things happen like Michael Vic breaking his legs. So it's just not worth it with how much of a difference maker, guy like George. and reek and be. You know, you've played on some teams that haven't been necessarily good on defense,

and even you've had kicker issues on the teams, but you've really played on teams with very good skill position players in particular. I mean, Deshawn Jackson, what comes to mind? Just elite, elite downfield, and it wasn't just the speed. The speed is what people talk about. Sure, he was fast, but there probably were guys in the league who were a little bit faster. What he did was track the ball like a baseball outfielder. And so you could be inaccurate, underthrow, overthrow, and he had a way to track it and go find it like he's a center fielder.

And then he played bigger than his size down the field. So even if it was tight coverage, you had to throw it like he was a megatron, which was tricky on the eye because you saw him being smaller, but you had to believe that he would play bigger because he kept showing it again and again in practice where he would just go get the ball as if he was this big receiver. And so the statistic of him having, you know, more 50. plus yard gains or taxes anybody else. That's real.

Like that, that is deserved, and he should be the greatest of all time in that status, in that statistical category. But it wasn't just his speed that did that. It was more than that. It was his ability to track the football. And so he was just like an instant explosive offensive offensive. He gets you back in a game at any moment. In Minnesota, Adam Thielen.

Just an all-around player. I mean, he could block in the run game. He was 4-4. Kevin Sifanke, when I first got there, I said, let's go through the whole roster, and you've been here for a bunch of years. So just tell me about each guy, strength, weaknesses, kind of at the risk of you giving me your biased opinion, give me your opinion. And what really stood out to me about Adam was he said, you're going to think because he was undrafted, because he's a Caucasian, that he's probably a 1B or a 2 receiver. And he said, I'm here to tell you, he is a 1. So whoever your ones are that you've played with, when you picture those guys, top guys in the league, that's Adam.

and you have to get out of your mind that maybe he's a one B or a two. And so that was really helpful for me because I look back and I say the same thing that while outside he may have been viewed as a guy who was like a one B or a two, he was a one, a true one. And we just had Stefan Diggs as well. And so we had the luxury of having two number one receivers. But he was the real deal and was so complete, similar to Pierre Garcone, where he could do so much and you didn't feel like he had to kind of keep him

in just a specific skill set. The reason I asked about him first is I was going to ask you, do you think the most clutch throw you've ever made was an overtime against New Orleans in the playoffs to feel? I just think it was the biggest opportunity, and you kind of started a conversation asking about, you know, being a polarizing player and needing to have those big playoff wins. And so when you think about the moment and needing to find a way to pull out that win, that call came in from Kevin Safansky, and it was a simple play action play that I remember Kyle Shannon installed to me my rookie mini camp basically. I mean, it was a pretty straightforward play.

It was not a complex one. And Adam, you know, there was a lot of trust there and had seen him so many times beat guys in man coverage. And it was single high man. And I thought, I'm just going to throw this with confidence to the spot that I need to put it. And Adam's going to run underneath it and use his speed to beat a really fast corner. And he did and made a great play. And I would have loved for that to be the walkoff and not fall down at the one. But Kyle Rudolph got us in a couple plays later, and that was the walk-off. So yeah, I agree with you. That was a big, big moment in my career, and one that I'm grateful to share with Adam. I was convinced that when they went to the replay, remember, that rule that year, they could go back and rule an offensive pass interference

or defensive pass interference with replay. And I thought, with your luck, they were going to overturn the game winner, because he did push off. Sure. Oh, yeah. Sure, and always hands are on him. Yeah. Kyle's a very savvy player. So if there was a ever a guy who could use his body and do it in a way that would not be flagged. That was Kyle. He was so good at knowing knowing how to, you know, use his body to create space. So that was a big play, but you're right. It was kind of a hold your breath moment after your body making sure that it truly was over and there wasn't something on the field. Jefferson or Diggs?

You know, people ask like who's the best guy you've ever thrown to? And I say, well, that's like picking your favorite kid. Like, I can't do that to the guys I played with. They were all good. They were all special. I'm grateful for all of them. I used to say that, and then I play with Justin Jefferson, and I found myself saying after that, yeah, he's probably the best I've been around. And I can say that and quote unquote pick my favorite kid. He's really special. My challenge to him was always, you know, can you do it again? Can you do it again? Because I didn't want him to get complacent or get him to think that he had to do something different or better. It was, no, you just got to do it again, and you'd be surprised how hard that is to do. You know, Jerry Rice did it for 20-plus

years, but not many guys can. So I kept challenging him to, make sure he could do it again and again and again. But he probably stands out the most. But what Diggs had was just incredibly strong hands, incredibly sound movement skills, great competitor. And he was another guy like Pierre or like Adam where he could do everything. You could give him reverses. You could give him down the field stuff like Deshaun.

You could give him short, quick game. You could have him run through traffic. You could have run intermediate routes to have to break down, have to stay on the move. I mean, he could do it all. Of all the coaches you've been around, And you've been around, you know, the list has been put out there so many different times about all the guys that were in Washington. And, you know, you've touched on, you know, even recently with Zach Robinson, who's part of the Sean McVeatree and Kevin before that, Mike, Kyle, Matt, Sean, Jay Gruden, you know, and Jay and Kyle worked together years ago in Tampa. Yep.

Like, in the shortest way you can do it, we don't know really the differences of all of the Shanahan tree. guys, but they all kind of seem the same. Like, is there a big difference with one versus the others or not? Yeah, I think what happened is you really have two trees. You have Mike Shanahan and you have John Gruden, and both of them kind of came from the Bill Walsh tree. So you have Bill, Mike and Kyle, you know, were then around different people in those trees where Mike was more in the San Fran space with George Seaford and those guys.

But John goes to Green Bay and he's with Holmgren who had been in San Fran. and he's with Andy Reed, and so John kind of sees it from there. And then they intersect again when Kyle Shanahan gets hired as a QC in Tampa to work for John. So Kyle kind of sees how John does things after having grown up with his dad and being around Denver. And then you kind of get that again when Sean McVeigh, who had then been trained by John and Jay Gruden, he then crosses over to the Shanahan's in Washington, and he kind of brings his Gruden knowledge over to what the Shanahan's are doing. And so you kind of saw this cross-pollination, if you will, between John's philosophy and Mike's philosophy. which had some pretty unique differences,

where I wouldn't put them in the same category, but then their disciples, if you will, have crossed over with each other to where they kind of now have cross-pollinated, and you get a little bit of John Gruden stuff and a little bit of Mike Shanahan stuff from each of them, and it's just a question of where do they fall on that spectrum as to they tend to Peter more towards John Gruden

or more towards Mike Shanahan, and all those guys fall in a different spot on that spectrum, but they all have been influenced by both sides of the spectrum. That was really interesting. You explain that very well with a good sense of NFL history, and why wouldn't you know that? I mean, in your career, you've touched a lot of what you just laid out. Yes, yes, I've worked with guys who are much closer to Mike Shanahan on the spectrum, and I've worked with guys who are much closer to John, and I still go see both of them.

I go down and see John in Tampa every offseason and sit with him for at least a day, if not more, and talk ball with him and hear his perspective on what he's observing, and then I've been over to Denver to sit with Mike and talk football with him. ever since he's been, quote-unquote, retired. So I go to both of them, and you notice the differences, and the differences in philosophy and what they want to do and how they want to attack people. But both are good, both are effective.

And so then you get their disciples, and you also see where a Sean McVeigh or a Kyle Shanahan is going to pull from John Gruden, and then where they're going to pull from Mike Shanahan. And it's really interesting to see kind of how they each have their own way of doing it. And then they have their own innovative ways because football keeps evolving. And so then they add their own wrinkles, and then they steal from each other.

And so it's a moving target, but so blessed to have been with so many guys who were in that world and then have gone on to great success. You know, David Blow just got elevated here to the OC job. He actually mentioned your name, being around you in Minnesota. What do you think Washington's getting with David Blow is the next OC here? Yeah, it's funny because the quarterback room in Minnesota was David Blow and Sean Manion, and Sean's now the OC in Philly, and David is OC in Washington.

So it's funny because I've worked a lot of coaches who have gone on to, success, but now I've worked with a lot of quarterbacks in the room or going on to great success in coaching, so it just continues. But in both cases, like really, really sharp guys who have great football minds, understand people, very perceptive. But it reminds me of these other coaches we've talked about, where the downside, if you want to call it that, is just that they're young. They haven't done it before as much. They don't have as many skins on the wall. But when it was Kyle and Sean and these other guys, no problem. Like, you just got to let them, go because they have the ability and the work ethic and the, you know,

skill to innovate. And I think Sean and David had that as well. And David was around Ben Johnson, a guy I haven't been around. But I do think Ben is another one that is really special. And to get around him and be a part of history, I think that will start to grow in the years to come. And I think that's where David has a lot to offer that I can't speak to is what he learned from Ben. And I think what he learned from Ben will be a big part of what they do going forward in Washington. By the way, they hired DJ Williams. You just made me think of that.

He was your quarterback coach in Atlanta. So tell me real quickly about DJ Williams. Well, I remember meeting DJ when he was still in college playing, and we had hired Doug Williams to come back and help out personnel, and DJ came out to a practice in OTAs or minicamp, and I got to meet him, and you could just tell then even as Doug had raised the great son. He was personable for a kid who was only, you know, 20-21 at the time, personal, mature, and love football.

And so he came around and was able to watch our practices those few days. And then he worked with the team in 2016 and 17 doing the low-level tasks. And then he worked with the Saints for many years and saw what it looks like in the quarterback room from Drew Breeze and from Sean Peyton and from a lot of the big-time offenses they had. So getting with him in 24, I was constantly asking him about the Saints and what they did so well for Drew Breeze's final years. And he really knows ball. And then he and I worked together a lot in 25 this past year, and I really enjoyed him.

I think he's another coach that's up and coming, knows football, is hungry to learn, has good self-awareness, good emotional intelligence. So I think he'll work great with David, and the two of them are coaches that I think Washington should be really excited about this year, but also in the years to come. I think they got some talent on their staff. They could really become something special. All right. Let's finish this up. What's next? Great question. I'd like to play. So I'm kind of waiting around this time of year, which we always used to do. I mean, even when we were in, you know, the famous contract discussions,

it was always kind of quiet in February and then you wait for March. So that's where we are again. We'll see when we get to March. I expect to be released by Atlanta. But I have a lot of excitement about playing again. I think getting back out this fall and being able to play and go four and O down the stretch. And, you know, the joy of playing really returned. And it kind of galvanized me to want to get back on the field in 26.

So we'll see what options are out there in March and try to stay available and ready. And hopefully we don't have to worry about what's next for another year or so. Well, I hope there's a fit that's a good one for you because I'd love to see you play next year. You played very well this year in Atlanta when Pennix went down. And I've told you this before. You are excellent on television. So that's obviously a potential future for you as well. I hope it comes, you know, a few years from now.

But you mentioned the quarterback room that you were in in Minnesota with Sean Mannion and David Blow behind you. They've become offensive coordinators pretty quickly. Does coaching interest you? You know, it truly is when people say it's a grind. No one really knows what that means. Yeah. But, I mean, in some places, there are bunk beds built in the facility and coaches with kids in middle school and high school, as they have at home. they're staying at the facility 30 to 40 nights a year.

You know, Joe Gibbs is famous sleeping in his office back in the 80s. And Joel will tell you that that was a mistake looking back. But I think the grind of coaching when you've got kids at home and you afford yourself the opportunity to have the freedom to be there and be available and be involved in their life, to push that aside to stay in the game and be around coaching. As much as I would love to do that, I just think that the lifestyle of it would be,

it wouldn't match. It just isn't going to work. Now, if there was a way to do it and have quality of life still be there for me and my family, I would love the coach. But I haven't cracked the code on how to do that without, you know, giving the 100 hours a week that it takes. And so I'm still trying to crack the code on that, and maybe we will someday. But that's kind of the rub for me with coaching. All right.

Tell everybody about great clips. Great clips. Yeah, it's my haircuts. You look, you know, I showed up in the Netflix deal. So we had fun with it And you know, they've been a great partner. They're based in Minnesota. And I still go there every time for my haircut.

The quarterback room always laughs when I come in with a haircut. And they say, you got a great clip again. I say, yeah, man, I don't need to go to some fancy salon. I just go to great clips and it works. So, yeah, big fan. Well, you're a big fan of great clips. And as you know, I am a big fan of yours. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time that you spent with me today.

it's much appreciated, and I wish you the best of luck with whatever comes next. Well, thanks, Kevin. I don't necessarily keep receipts. I don't know if that's the best way to live, but what I do do is take note of people who believe in me and people who have my back or people who think I'm going somewhere and stick with me. And that was Mike Shanahan, and that was Kyle Shanahan, and that was Sean McVeigh, and that was Kevin Stefanski and Clint Kubiak. And so I would add your name to that list, Kevin.

I appreciate the way you said, no, you know, I think I'm going to follow this guy. I think there's something to him. I think he's got something to offer at a time when that wasn't the norm. And so I'm grateful for that. And appreciate your support. Well, we'll go down together if we go down. Yeah, right. But I'd love to see you get back out there next year, and I hope it's the right fit.

Wish you the best, and I'll be in touch. Great. Thanks, Kevin. Kirk Cousins with me from earlier this year.