The Megyn Kelly Show - The DEFINITIVE Deep Dive on Every Michael Jackson Allegation From 1993, 2003, and 2013, with Andrew Hammel | Ep. 1327

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

Megyn Kelly is joined by Andrew Hammel, lawyer and journalist, to talk about the need to explore all sides of the allegations against Michael Jackson, the Jordy Chandler story which started the questions about Jackson's relationship with children in 1993, the circumstances of the first civil and criminal case against Jackson, the shocking and disgusting discovery during the 1993 search of Neverland, the evidence of Michael Jackson's pedophilia, the relevance that Jackson wouldn't settle at first and went to trial, what happened with Michael Jackson from 1993 to 2003, his two marriages to Lisa Marie Presley and Debbie Rowe, the damaging Martin Bashir interview showing disturbing interactions with Jackson's own kids, the significance of Michael Jackson's accusers all taking monetary payouts, those who haven't taken money and say Jackson wasn't an abuser, the problems for prosecutors in the 2005 trial, the latest allegations against Michael Jackson from Wade Robson and James Safechuck, the way their stories changed and the holes in their allegations, the outstanding questions about Jackson and his treatment of children, and more.   More from Hammel- https://x.com/andrewhammel1   Birch Gold: Text MK to 989898 for a free info kit and to see if you qualify for up to $10,000 back through May 29. SelectQuote: Compare top‑rated life insurance options. Visit https://SelectQuote.com/megyn to get the right coverage at the right price. Cozy Earth: This Memorial Day, visit https://www.CozyEarth.com & Use code MEGYN for up to 30% off ARMRA: go to https://tryarmra.com/MEGYNto get 30% off your first subscription order     Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKelly Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShow Instagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShow Facebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow  Find out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East. Hey, everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show. Michael Jackson was once one of the biggest stars on the planet. Virtually everybody to this day knows who he was, whether they were alive when he was or not. If you're of a certain age, you hear a song of his, and it transports you back in time immediately. And likely with some foot tapping and some body jamming, it's just fun music. that tends to be upbeat and great to listen to.

It once again is at the top of the charts after the release of the hit, and I do mean hit movie Michael, starring his own nephew, Jafar Jackson, as him. He worked for two years to learn the dance moves and to get the singing just right, and ultimately his dad Jermaine, who's an executive producer,

cast him in the movie, or at least approved of it, and it was not nepotism. Maybe it was a nepotism, but it was a great choice because if you watch the movie, this young Jafar, who's, I think, 27 years old or so, nails it. I mean, my gosh, he's got Michael to a T. The fans are packing the theaters.

I mean, it's the biggest hit we've seen in a long, long time that doesn't have a superhero in it. And in some cases, the audience reportedly standing up and cheering at the end of these things, they're turning into, like, mini dance parties in places. There's a scene in this movie where Michael defies his very abusive father, Joe Jackson, and begins his solo career. Just watch one audience's reaction to that.

It's crazy. I have to say that Jafar Jackson is very charming, too. There's something sweet about his face. And it kind of reminds you of the early Michael Jackson before he'd had all that work done and got to be very freaky looking. They go there, too, in the film eventually. But the point is that cultural moments like these, they just don't happen that often anymore. You know, it's not like the 1990s when we're all watching friends together.

And you had to like talk about what was on the latest Seinfeld around the water cooler, even like Letterman. You know, like there were certain things we all did. We all watched and everyone had to talk about them. And it was something that bonded us. And this movie is starting to do that. I mean, it's expected to make a billion dollars. It's up to 800 million already. I mean, think about that.

It's up to $800 million in a month. And it only tells like the first, you know, 60% of Michael Jackson's life and the remaining 40 is left off. It came quickly. But nothing about the abuse scandal, et cetera. And now next week, Netflix is going to get in on the action too. There are no dopes. Netflix is going to release a three-part series on his 2005 criminal trial, the only criminal trial he faced, featuring jurors, courtroom insiders, reporters, and witnesses.

And that's certainly going to have a different feel from this movie, which featured nothing, nothing about the multiple allegations against Michael Jackson. And there's a reason for that. Basically, it occurred to them after they had reportedly shot some scenes taking on the abuse allegations that they had signed settlement agreements with whatever young men were depicted in film,

agreeing never to speak of them. And the estate is bound by those agreements. So they had to lob off the last quarter of the movie. And most have agreed that that was actually the greatest thing that ever happened in this movie because it allows you to just feel good about this other version of Michael Jackson that we all came to know and love in the music. You know, it's fun. It makes you feel good.

And you're proud of him. You know, he's like a Steve Jobs character, American-born, American-raised, who goes on to do something, to change the world. You know, Michael did that with his music and his dancing, Steve Jobs with the iPhone, but Bill Gates, we could keep going. But that's how many of us fell in love with Michael

and want to remember him. And so the movie kind of benefits from the fact that they didn't even go there. Well, it's more complicated than that, unfortunately. That's the reality. And we're already being told that they're going to release a part two of this movie. And they said relatively soon.

So, like, at some point, they're going to have to address it, and I'm sure they're going to whitewash it. I guess I shouldn't say that. I don't know that they're going to whitewash it. I think they think they've got the better end of the arguments. So we'll see what they do. But we hear on the show are very into the story because everybody wants to know. All these years after his death, which was 2009, people still ask each other when the news comes up, did he or didn't he? what do you think you know everybody when we've covered on on the show everybody said what was he or wasn't he

they want to want to know and i think for some they want to know because it will help make them make a decision about how they feel about his music like can you enjoy the art and not the artist um is it forgivable repedophilia against god knows how many kids i'm okay so you want to know And here on this show, we're going to try to get as close to truth as we can. And we're very, very committed to bringing both sides. Now, we recently had on Mark Garagos. He was Michael Jackson's attorney for a time. And we both discussed how we have some strong concerns about whether a couple of these accusers are credible.

The stories they're telling whether they're credible. And in particular in that so-called documentary that was done called Leaving Neverland, whether the filmmaker did the audience a disservice by not raising the very clear credibility questions of the two witnesses who were the main players in that movie. The problem for this story and making up your mind is that everyone who has publicly accused Michael Jackson, everyone, save for the last four who just came out the Cassio family like a month ago, because we just haven't really, no one's really looked into them. But everyone has serious credibility problems.

And everyone, including those four Casios, has had their handout for money, which makes it additionally complicated. Okay. So Garagos and I talked all about it. And, you know, we were both torn because he had also interviewed the Casios. It seemed to me, though we didn't say so, that they had considered hiring him potentially for a civil suit. And it didn't go that way. But he even said they, my God, they seem so sincere. and authentic and, you know, suggested that would have been a tough case.

But, okay, here's the thing. Before you can present the defense in any way or ask yourself, if you believe or disbelieve the witnesses who have come forward against Michael, you got to look at what those witnesses are saying. And I don't, I've never felt comfortable just re-airing the claims of Safe Chuck and Robson. Those are the two guys featured in Leaving Neverland, the so-called documentary. not a documentary. It's not. I've never felt comfortable just slapping them on the air because I do know that there are a lot of things that undermine their stories. And yet I haven't found the credible

presentation of the case against Michael Jackson in a way that lends itself to narrative form for, like, the show that we're doing now. Until now. I read a very compelling, fascinating, deep dive on the long-forgotten moments of the Jackson investigations, the one in 1993. That was the one that first broke it open as a story, this Jordy Chandler. And then just about 10 plus years later, when Michael was criminally charged with sexually abusing a different boy, this is a little boy who had suffered from cancer. And that's the only case that ever actually got brought against him in the criminal arena. and he beat the charges.

This piece, which is in Quillette, it's by a guy named Andrew Hamill, goes into great detail about how the investigations first began, how the search warrants were issued, what the searches performed as a result of the search warrants found in Michael Jackson's bedroom.

And I'm sorry, but we're going to go through it, and it's, disturbing. Now, this is not based on the credibility of a witness who's looking for money. This is, what did the police report finding in his bedroom? And our guest, Andrew Hemmel, knows the answer. The article is titled, Never, Neverland, the new Michael Jackson biopic and the campaign to whitewash the King of Pops reputation. You can read it in full on the news website, Quillette, which I recommend to you all, the author of the book, the piece, Andrew Hamill joins me now.

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of up to 10,000 bucks. Andrew, thank you so much for being with us. You're welcome. Glad to be here. What a piece. First of all, how long did it take you to research this? Actually, about three months, I would say. Because, I mean, I'd watched Michael Jackson's trial in 2005, or the coverage, and read it,

because I'm a lawyer, and it interested me because they had great lawyers on both sides. And then Claire Lehman, the editor of Coilette, asked me to take a look at it, given the new biopic. And so I spent a lot of time really intensively research a case. Okay. So had you been into the Michael Jackson story or cases prior to that in any meaningful way? Not really. Not since 2005. Okay. Fair enough. So this is kind of how I came to it too. I mean, I was a Michael Jackson fan, like most people. I heard about the allegations. I didn't know what to make of them. And it wasn't until that, again, air quotes,

came out in 2019, that sitting on my couch in between jobs, I, too, am a lawyer, and said, I actually would like to know whether this is real. Because when Oprah got on there and really just kind of like put the period at the end of the documentary and really just went to the victimy Oprah plays. And again, she's supposed to be a journalist without testing. I mean, I think you or I, just as lawyers, would have asked those two at least a couple of pressing questions. Again, I don't want to beat up on these guys. If they were actually the survivors of molestation, That's the last thing you want to do, but you have an obligation in telling the story, you know, to look at the other side, at least if you're going to call yourself a documentary. So you decide to take a hard look at the whole story.

And am I correct that the very first we, first whiff we got of this was Jordy Chandler. And how did that come up? And who was Jordy Chandler? Sure. So Jordy Chandler was born in 1980. and he first, he actually met Michael Jackson in a restaurant sometime in the late 1980s, but just very fleetingly, because they lived in L.A. And Jordy Chandler's father was Evan Chandler, who was, he called himself a dentist to the stars.

So he was a dentist in Los Angeles, and his mother was June Chandler. And in 2000, I believe it was 1992, I'm sorry, Michael Jackson's car, broke down in LA and he pulled into a rent-a-rec car rental agency and that rent-a-wreck agency was actually run by David Schwartz, who was the new, you know, the new husband of June Chandler. So Jordy Chandler's stepfather. And so an employee there said, my God, we've got Michael Jackson here. And we, you know, everyone knew that Jordy Chandler was a huge fan. So David Schwartz called up Jordy and said, said, you know, go meet your idol. And he leaped in a car and went out there.

And, you know, they met. And Michael Jackson was very nice. And they exchanged phone numbers, contact details. And then Jordy Chandler began hanging out with Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson had already been hanging out with prepubescent boys for years by this time. You know, during the 1987 tour for his album Bad, he was accompanied the entire time by an Australian boy named Brett Barnes. So it was known that, you know, Michael Jackson liked the company of young boys. So Michael Jackson and Jordy Chandler struck up a relationship. Michael Jackson,

of course, went first to Jordy Chandler's mother, June. And, you know, he was extremely nice and extremely helpful and very gracious and very complimentary. And he sort of invagled himself into the family. and Evan Chandler, the father, found out about this. He found out that Jordan Chandler had begun actually sleeping in the same bed with Michael Jackson, with the approval of June Chandler, Jordy Chandler's mother. And so Evan Chandler at first, and I think it's appropriate to point out, that, you know, none of the accuser's parents ever went to the police first. they all went to lawyers,

they all looked for money in settlements first. And so Evan Chandler finds out that his son is sleeping in the same bed with Michael Jackson, and he goes to civil lawyers. And they refer Jordy Chandler to child psychologists to determine whether, you know, Jordy Chandler admitted to his father in June of 1993 after a dental operation that Michael Jackson had taught him. touched him inappropriately and had performed sexual acts on him. That's what Jordy Chandler said to his father.

And then Evan Chandler went to lawyers, looking to hire the most aggressive ones he possibly could. Those lawyers referred Jordy Chandler, who was then 13, to child psychiatrists who interviewed him. And under California law at the time, they were mandatory reporters. They had to report, you know, credible accusations of child abuse to the authorities. So that started both a civil lawsuit and a criminal investigation of Michael Jackson. The civil lawsuit was filed for $30 million with accusations that Michael Jackson fondled and masturbated and performed oral sex on Jordy Chandler. And the criminal investigation resulted in a search of Michael Jackson's body in December of 1990. his body, of his body, you said.

His body, yes, his genitals, his torso, his buttocks, because Jordy Chandler had told investigators that I can tell you what Michael Jackson looks like nude. And I can identify red spots on his buttocks and a brown splotch on his penis when it's in an erect estate. And Michael Jackson complained about this loudly. You know, he hired satellite.

time, four minutes of satellite time to complain about this search. We actually have some of that, we have some of that, Andrew, where he spoke out about this in December of 1993, upset about what had happened. I mean, it was under court order, so he really had no choice. But here's a little bit of that here in SOT 5. I have been forced to submit to a dehumanizing and humiliating examination by the Santa Barbara County Sheriff Department and the Los Angeles Police Department earlier this week. They served a search warrant on me which allowed them to view and photograph my body including my penis, my buttocks, my lower torso, thighs, and any other error that they wanted.

They were supposedly looking for any discoloration, spotting blotches or other evidence of a skin color disorder called Vidalico, which I have previously spoken about. The warrant further stated that I had no right to refuse the examination or photographs, and if I failed to, cooperate with them, they would introduce that refusal at any trial as an indication of my guilt. It was the most humiliating ordeal of my life, one that no person should ever have to suffer. And even after experiencing the indignity of this search, the parties involved were still not satisfied and wanted to take even more pictures. It was a nightmare, a horrifying nightmare. if this is what I have to endure to prove my innocence, my complete innocence, so be it.

You point out of the piece, and it's true, Michael is wearing very long eyelashes, fake eyelashes in the piece. I mean, he's already looking bizarre when he issues the statement in 1993. But, yeah, there's also an effeminate thing to Michael that happened as he continued changing himself. I said on the air when we covered the movie two weeks ago, you know, he's got the song, Black or White, right? And it's Michael Jackson was neither black nor white. Michael Jackson appealed to neither black nor white. He appealed to everybody. Michael Jackson didn't seem straight or gay. He almost kind of seemed asexual. This discussion is probing whether it was something even went far more disturbing than that. He wasn't political. He was, it was just, one of the reasons

he became such a huge star is because he was nothing in every. everything all at once. And here you see he's like kind of neither male nor female. You know, it's like you don't know what he is exactly, but he was indignant for sure as a result of that search. And Jordy, so then what happened next? So the police, the search of Michael Jackson's body, and then what happened? So they did the search of the body. They also performed a search of his home, his ranch in Neverland, well, the ranch called Neverland, which was near Los Olives, California, in Santa Barbara County. He bought that ranch in 1988 and transformed it into an amusement park and invited children to it and also lived there. So the police also searched his master bedroom and his library at Neverland and also his condominium in Los Angeles.

And one of the, I think, very, very strange pieces of evidence they found in 1993 during the Search of Neverland were two books that are actually even now extremely famous among male pedophiles, adult male pedophiles. These books were published in the 1960s. One is called Boys Will Be Boys. The other is called The Boy, a photographic essay. And both books contain many pictures of naked young boys with their genitals exposed. These books were found in 1993 in a locked drawer of a file cabinet in Michael Jackson's master bedroom. One of the books was inscribed from a fan from Chicago in 1983. So a fan in 1983 thought that Michael Jackson would be interested in a book filled with pictures of news.

boys with their genitals exposed. And Michael Jackson wrote an inscription on the book saying, roughly, look at the joyful, playful freedom of young men. This is what I never had, and this is what I want for my children. So we know Michael Jackson received these books either as gifts or one of them he may have purchased and had them in his master bedroom in a locked file drawer. And these books are important because they came up in a later criminal trial in 2005. Now, back in 1993, the negotiations for a settlement went on. But wait, wait, before we leave the books. Because to me, the books was, that was huge.

When I was reading this piece, that was just a huge moment. It was, I don't want to say a game set match, but it's getting very close. No non-pedophile has books in a locked drawer in their bedroom with naked pictures of little boys. there is zero legitimate purpose for having such a thing for clearly he knew it was there. He had written in one of them celebrated it. And when I read who was behind the books, it was like, oh, God, because I spent years on Fox News. And this is back in the day when O'Reilly was calling attention to this thing called Nambla, the North American Man Boy Love Association.

And as soon as you got to Nambla in your piece, my jaw dropped. That is a pedophile organization. They're trying to normalize pedophilia. There's, you know, man, boy, love associate. That's not a thing. That's pedophilia. It's another word for pedophilia. And what you write in the piece, I'm just going to read your paragraph exactly.

You write, these books were particularly popular with, quote, boy lovers worldwide. You put it in quotes because that's what they call themselves, since they could be purchased legally in most Western countries. But the two men responsible for them were, in fact, pedophiles. George St. Martin was the pseudonym of Martin Swithenbank, a British photographer from a prestigious family who had relocated to the United States to study business administration at Harvard on a Fulbright scholarship from 1950 to 52. In 78, he co-founded Nambla, according to other accounts you say he was merely its trustee, and contributed to its bulletin. In July of 81, he was convicted in a New York court of sodomizing young boys. Forgive me, audience, for no viewer of warning

here, but you know it was coming. We said Michael Jackson and sentenced to between seven and a half and 15 years in prison. Ronald C. Nelson was the pseudonym of Ronald Drew, a New York teacher, this is on the other book, a New York teacher indicted for distributing pornographic images of children in 1980. The 1993 Neverland Hall also yielded a nude photograph of a boy. and another photograph of a boy holding an umbrella and wearing only a bikini bottom, which was partially pulled down. That is just so devastating. I cannot think of any possible reason a non-pedophile would have that material in his file,

his locked file, in his bedroom, Andrew. I have a real difficult time getting past it. And so do I. And the interesting thing about these books, books is if you look at FBI statistics on pedophiles, the ones who've been convicted and there's no doubt of their guilt, only 25% of them have explicit child pornography because they know that that's illegal and extremely dangerous and many avoid it. But an incredible amount have literally these two books in their collection because these books are legal. They are considered to have. artistic merit and so you can buy and sell them if you want to buy one now they cost over a thousand dollars and you can only get them in private auctions to pedophiles so you do have to kind of out yourself yeah they so this is not the kind of you know just you can't find this book in your

local library uh and they probably wouldn't stock it because it contains extremely explicit photos of young boys with their legs spread exposing their prepubescent jubescent genitals. And although it's legal, it is clearly the thing, the kind of thing that, you know, would be of interest to a very specific clientele. And Michael Jackson had these in his bedroom and inscribed one of the books himself. So knowing that they had those books, that the cops found those and that they were in the possession of the prosecutors, I mean, just as lawyers, you and I both know, his legal team understood there was zero chance he could go to trial on that. I mean, like zero chance. And yet he did. Ten years later, when he got accused by the next child,

he did go to trial on it. Like, I don't, that's kind of where like I, the whole thing confuses me, you know, because it's like a lawyer would be saying, Michael, you are toast. Like, cop a plea, do something. They're going to introduce those books and the jury is going to convict you. And yet he wasn't convicted at that trial. I don't know if these books came in as evidence. It's possible they didn't for some reason. They may have been excluded as too unfairly prejudicial. Do we know? No, they did. They did come in. Oh, my God. And they still acquitted him? But actually, that's not even the whole story. Not only did the books come in, the prosecution also made a motion under California

evidence rule 1108, which was passed in 1995, to make it easier to convict child sexual abuse cases. And that law said, you can introduce other evidence of sexual misconduct with children

or any kind of sexual misconduct even if it didn't result in a conviction. And so... We just, just for the audience, because we've been following many cases, and we've been discussing on the show, how that same rule exists in New York State. It was passed after the Me Too movement that you can allow in other women to testify in a sexual harassment or abuse case. That's how Harvey Weinstein got

convicted the first time. And then it got overturned because the Court of Appeal, which is our highest court in New York, said, this is unfairly prejudicial. You cannot have a parade of witnesses who are not identified victims in this case. Take the stand. And now you can't do that. But this same thing was in place in California when it came to people accused of child abuse, child sexual abuse. And so that did happen at Michael Jackson's 2005 trial. Okay, but wait, we're getting ahead of ourselves because I did, I don't want to leave a Jordy Chandler and we'll get to the next case, the trial.

But you were saying, okay, in addition to finding those books in his bedroom and then you were going to give us a meantime update on Jordy Chandler, what he was saying, I mean, one of the things that jumped out at me from your article was that. Jackson was in regular contact with June Chandler, Jordy's mom, and that at some point, she found out that he was sleeping with her son, like in the same bedroom. They had, he had, they'd all been at Neverland. He showered them with compliments and gifts, you say. He took them on a trip to Las Vegas.

And then after June Chandler went to her bedroom with her daughter, Jordy and Michael Jackson watched the exorcist together. and then Jackson invited the frightened child to sleep with him. When his mother June found out about this, you write, she put up some initial resistance to which Jackson responded with tearful entreaties. So tell us what she did and what Michael Jackson did as a result of her alleged upset in that moment. Sure.

So they were all staying in a large luxury suite in a hotel in Las Vegas. I believe it was the Mirage. And June Chandler and her daughter, Lily, were sleeping in one bedroom. And they went to sleep. And then Michael Jackson and Jordy Chandler watched The Exorcist. Jordy Chandler was terrified. Michael Jackson invited Jordy Chandler into his bedroom and I believe his bed. And they slept together.

Nothing happened during that night. But June Chandler, the next morning, said, you know, what's going on? you know, I didn't sign up for this. And Michael Jackson was crying and saying, we are a family, and we're all together, we must trust each other. Nothing would ever happen. I would never do anything. And then June Chandler relented, and Michael Jackson bought her Cartier bracelet worth, you know, probably $20,000 or $30,000. And from that time, as Jordy Chandler said in his interview with a child psychiatrist, you know, Michael Jackson got my mother to agree to let us sleep in the same bed, and we were in the same bed together until the end of our relationship. For the price of a Cartier bracelet.

Yes, and even some other pieces of jewelry, too. So June, it's not a surprise that after all the legal events of 2004 settled, Jordy Chandler sued to be emancipated from his parents at the age of 15, both of his parents. And that was granted because he claimed in court they were not properly taking care of them. And the judge agreed. And honestly, if you look back on this story and you believe that Michael Jackson is a pedophile, was a pedophile, shame on that set of parents. Because had they actually, if we're in the lane of this is true, he did it,

had they actually just dealt with the police, conducted a criminal case or pushed all their resources into a criminal case, not a money grab. Who knows how many boys could have been saved in the future? But they didn't. They went civil. Michael actually didn't pay right away. He was like, no, I'm not paying this. He resisted. And that is one of the reasons why many of his supporters say he didn't react like a panicked person who was guilty. You know, he reacted like, who are you grifters? No, I'm definitely not giving over a bunch of money. This is outrageous. And ultimately, though, he did settle for a reported $20 million, they couldn't make a criminal case because you tell me what happened after he did that payout. Sure.

The payout occurred. The settlement occurred in January of 1994. It was negotiated hard by lawyers on both sides. And the ultimate amount, we don't know the exact ultimate amount, but we know that $15,300,000 was paid to Jordy Chandler in a trust account. and about $1 to $2 million to his parents. And the terms of that settlement say, Jordy Chandler can never say anything negative about Michael Jackson ever anywhere. And Michael Jackson cannot mention Jordy Chandler ever for any reason,

which is why the Michael biopic that's currently being released had to be cut. And after the settlement came, now, you know, the Santa Barbara and Los Angeles district attorneys were invest. investigating Michael Jackson still in 1994. But Jordy Chandler indicated to them that he would not willingly testify against Michael Jackson. And so they convened grand juries. And you can only get that if the person's in the jurisdiction. I mean, the truth is that even a settlement or a non-disclosure agreement can be overridden by a demand in a criminal case, potentially or by government officials that you testify, that kind of thing. Like your non-disclosure obligation. from a settlement agreement would be vitiated. You would not have to get back the money. But that's a separate matter from whether they can actually get a subpoena on you to force you to appear.

And generally, you have to be within the jurisdiction. And he wasn't. And he actually threatened to leave the country altogether if they wanted to try to wrangle him in by subpoena. And then as a prosecutor, you're like, okay, even if I were going to go do all that, I have this extremely reluctant witness. What am I going to get? I'm not going to get what I want. So they decided not to pursue the criminal charges in 93 on the Jordy Chandler allegations.

That's true. And actually, in 1990, Georgie Chandler did say in 2005 during the criminal trial, I'll flee the country to avoid a subpoena. Yeah, sorry, that's my mind. Exactly. He was still there and he could have been subpoenaed. But he indicated that he would not cooperate. And, you know, of course, the subpoena can, overrule a civil settlement, but he strongly indicated, I'm not going to cooperate, I don't want any part of this. And so the prosecution would have had to call a reluctant witness that, and they had no idea what he might say. And it's also important to understand that we don't really understand what Jordy Chandler's attitude toward Michael Jackson was at this time. When he originally

told his father, Michael Jackson abused me, he also said, Daddy, please don't hurt Michael. Don't go public with this because that will be really bad for Michael. And I don't want anything bad to happen to him. He's a sweet and kind person. I don't agree with what he did to me, but I don't want to destroy his career. So we don't know exactly what Georgie Chandler thought, but he might have still had very fond feelings to Michael Jackson. And who knows what he might the possibility that Michael never touched him and that he, you know, his defense was always that I'm a child, I hang out with children, there's nothing wrong. What could be a nicer expression of friendship and love than sleeping in the same bed? You know, I mean, two young girls, having been

a tween and teen girl, you'd sleep in the same bed as a girlfriend any time. Like, that's not unusual for two, like, 10-year-olds who are having a sleepover. Yeah, a 30-year-old man with a 10-year-old boy is a very different scenario and should never be allowed. It just shouldn't be. But anyway, so it's possible that Georgie Chandler never accused Michael Jackson and told the dentist father he didn't. And the dentist father came up with this story that, no, no, Jordy said he did. You told me, Jordy, right after I gave you the anesthetic for your dental work, you told me that he did. And now, you know, there's a big dispute. And it's possible that the parents manipulated him either to make false allegations or that they were making the false allegations because it seems

pretty clear the parents are disgusting. The mother's disgusting. I'm willing to say it. And this father seemed very focused on getting a payout from the moment the idea occurred to him, either because his child made an allegation or because he just got the idea. And I think that was also part of the prosecutor's calculation. You know, like, okay, the boy's not going to testify. Are the parents credible? Do I like my witnesses? Like, how is that? going to play. And it was very clear that they were not going to play well. And so from that standpoint, they did the right thing of the prosecutors. Because, you know, you can't go through all this only to have a fall apart. Just ask the ones who brought the case in 2005 where they had yet another

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So he pays Jordy Chandler that money. They go away. The family goes away. And now we have a 12-year period from 93 to 2005, and the next big thing would be the criminal charges for another boy. But what happened in between that time, Andrew? Like, was the pedophilia thing quiet? Did no other boys come forward? Do we know what was going on? Well, during that time, from 1994 to 2005, there was a sort of a conservative.

effort to try to repair Jackson's reputation. So in 1994, he married Lisa Marie Presley in I think the Dominican Republic. Forgive me, forgive me, because I love to do it linearly. I think the audience gets it better. So right before Lisa Marie, and while

this whole nightmare with Jordy was about to wrap up or in the process of going there, Michael's sister Latoya came out and stuck the knife in. And as far as I know, she's the only family member who's done this, but she stuck the knife in and twisted it. And here is what she said.

She was in Tel Aviv for a concert, Sot 4. I must tell you that this is very difficult for me, that Michael is my brother. I love him a great deal. But I cannot, and I will not, be a silent collaborator of his crimes against small, innocent children. And if I remain silent, then I mean that I feel the guilt and humiliation that these children are filling, and I think it's very wrong. I have seen checks payable to the parents of these children. And I don't know if these children were apparently brought to the parents by Michael or not. But I have seen these checks, and I've seen these checks through my mother.

She's shown me these checks that Michael have written to these children, and it's for a great amount. and I'm not speaking pennies. The sums are very, very large amounts. And this is my first time talking about it. And I never want to speak about it. I never want to say anything about it. But I think it's sad because I am a victim myself and I know what it feels like.

And these kids are going to be scarred for the rest of their life. And I don't want to see any more innocent small children being affected this way. Very damning. But it didn't stand. She wound up taking it back, Andrew. Yes, that's true. I think that interview was given in 1993, and it was very damning. It was reported worldwide. And she also said in a book she published in 1991, she described that, you know, the Jackson family matriarch, Catherine, was extremely displeased with Michael's behavior when they were living in the same home in Encino, California. And she called him, you know, an anti-gay slur. And she showed him, and she showed.

Latoia these checks. Now, later, LaToya took it all back, and she said that when she made these statements, she was under the influence of her abusive ex-husband, who actually was almost certainly abusing her at the time, and that none of what she said was true. At the time, she said, I can prove evidence, you know, I can provide evidence Michael Jackson abused kids for $500,000 to a tabloid, but, you know, they inquired and she didn't have. any evidence of that. So she took it all back, but still, you know, it took a lot to repair her ties with her family after her coming out and saying that. And also one other question on the Jordy Chandler case before we move forward. The search warrant and the pictures of Michael's genitals and his body,

they were looking for something in particular to see if it matched up with the description. I guess they got from Jordy. There appears to have been some sort of a birthmark on Michael Jackson's penis, like some sort of dark spot. I don't know if it was a birth marker. It was the Vidaligo, which makes your skin darker in some places and whiter and other places. And what did Jordy Chandler accurately say that that existed? Like, how did that whole matchup go? Do we know? Yeah, that is still to this day extremely controversial, as with almost everything in this case. Jordy Chandler gave a description to police

about Jackson's torso and genitals, and he claimed that underneath Jackson's penis, which is, you know, you could only see this in an erect state, there was a dark splotch possibly caused by, you know, you know, maybe Vitiligo had affected other parts of the genitals and this was unaffected. And according to law enforcement officers, you know, When Jackson was photographed, he made a big stink about it.

He was extremely upset. And he also had his own photographers there also taking pictures. These photographs have never been released. And that is why there's a debate until this day. Law enforcement officers say that, you know, they have seen the photographs, and the photographs were consistent with what Jordy Chandler said. However, to be fair, Jordy Chandler also said that Michael Jackson had a circuit. and at his autopsy in 2009, the coroner said his penis appears uncircumcised.

So we still do not have full clarity about whether Jordy Jack, Jordy Chandler's descriptions were accurate, but law enforcement officers have said they were, and there's many people think that that was one reason that Jackson settled. Now, Jackson had his own photographs taken. He has never released those. He has never asked for the sealed photographs to be released during his lifetime. So, unfortunately, we'll never know the truth. But, you know, law enforcement officers say it did match generally. Okay.

So now we're back to Jordy and family go away. Now we're in this period from 94 to 2004 or 5 when he goes on trial. What's happening? What's happening is at first, I mean, damage control. So there was the marriage to Lisa Marie Presley, which lasted two years from 1994 to 1996. It's pretty well documented that they didn't stay together very much at all. And I believe she had her own home for most of the marriage, and it dissolved in 1996. Jackson also released an album during this time in which he attacked.

Let's spend a minute on Lisa Marie, because she was asked, by Oprah, did you consummate the marriage? And it was one of those, like, famous moments where Lisa Marie was like, Oprah, and Oprah kind of shamed her audience who were like ooing an eye and saying, you know you want to know the answer too. And she was not wrong.

I have to ask you this. Was it a consummated marriage? Oh, my God, Oprah. I have to ask you that question. And you all know damn well you want to know. I mean, it was a real marriage like between the husband and wife. It was a consummated marriage. Yep.

It was. Okay, that's all. So that happened. And she gave a couple of interviews, and she ultimately revealed that her mother, Priscilla Presley, had urged her not to marry him, saying, you're being used. He's being accused of molesting a little boy. And he's using you to make himself look like a strong. normal guy, so don't do this. But Lisa Marie did marry him. They had a lot in common because they

both grown up with no childhoods, like a completely under the scrutiny and glare of the bright lights and the media, which gave neither one of them a moment's peace. Lisa Marie through no fault of her own, Michael, originally through no fault of his own. His dad made him become this star, but eventually he chose it. And it does seem that they developed actually a very close friendship, though it didn't look anything like a marriage to most people. I think Lisa Marie would later say that they did consummate the marriage or that they at least had sex in the course of the marriage. But who knows, it seems like they were really just more friends.

And here's a little bit of the two of them at the MTV Video Music Awards. This is the opening of September 1994. Here it is. They walk out together. It's not 11. Please welcome Mr. and Mrs. Michael Jackson. Welcome to the MTV Video Music Awards. I'm very happy to be here and just think. Nobody thought this would last.

And yeah, she said it was a complete marriage. Yes, it was a complete marriage. So that happened and it didn't last actually, Andrew. No, it only lasted two years and there were no children as a result of the marriage. It's amazing though when you see that beautiful face looking exactly like Elvis, right? It's like Lisa Marie was the spitting image

of her equally famous dad. I mean, it's tough to say that Elvis was more famous than Michael Jackson. It's like, has anyone been more famous than Michael Jackson? Like, who's ever the most famous? Like, Princess Diana, Elvis, the Beatles, he's tied at least. Here's just one more, Norm MacDonald.

You know, one of the greatest social comments. and political commentators to have lived in the modern era, just underappreciated while he was alive, but posthumously has been celebrated many times by new fans. There he was on Saturday Night Live in 1996 after the divorce was announced with the following. Sot 12th. The nation is still reeling from Thursday's bombshell announcement that Lisa Marie Presley was filed for divorce from Michael Jackson. According to friends, the two were never a good match. She's more of a stay-at-home type, and he's more of a homestead. sexual pedophile.

So there's a little flavor of what the populace was doing, which is not buying it. They did not buy what he was trying to sell with that kiss and with the marriage to Lisa Marie. Sorry, now, keep going. Sure, Ed. So after that marriage dissolved, Jackson also released an album in the late 90s in which he attacked the prosecutor of Santa Barbara County, Tom Sneddon, in a song that actually had anti-Semitic lyrics.

mentioning kikes and Jews, which is also something. Michael, Michael did a song with that? Oh, yes. He did a song attacking Tom Sneddon and the press. His prosecutor. And the lyrics to the song go, kick me, kike me, sue me, Jew me.

And he had to apologize for this. To, you know, and he apologized in a groveling fashion. but, you know, that was something that really stunned me. Well, he really got that push swept under the carpet because, I mean, I guess, you know, if you're going to choose your controversy, you'd probably choose, like, I said something anti-Semitic over, I molested a bunch of little boy. So I can see why the one drowned out the other. But I was not even aware that he had done that.

Okay. So he's got, he's clearly bitter over his prosecutor. Yeah. And then he went on to marry a woman. called Debbie Roe, who was a medical assistant to his own dermatologist. And they were married for a couple of years in the late 1990s. And that marriage produced two children. So Paris Jackson and Prince Michael Jackson, the first. And of course, they're still around. And frankly, especially if you look at Paris Jackson, she looks like a Swedish bikini model. There's no way she is the biological

child of Michael Jackson? I don't think so at all. And, you know, Debbie Roe has, of course, everyone who had, you know, close associations with Michael Jackson has signed in DAs and has also agreed to never really go into detail truthfully. So we'll never know exactly what happened in that marriage. But that marriage also collapsed after producing two children. And then in the early 2000s, like in 2000, 2001, Jackson was.

really, you know, in the doldrums, career-wise. His latest album hadn't really hit very well, and, you know, Pepsi had canceled their contract with him, and he was getting more and more into debt. And so then he decided on a really huge gamble. He invited a British tabloid journalist to accompany him for eight months, just to make a documentary about his ordinary private life. And that documentary came out in 2002, and it was called Living with Michael Jackson, with Martin Bashir. And the documentary, you can find it online, but it's hard to find it online. Lots of sources about Michael Jackson exist only in, like you can only find this documentary in 10-minute-long YouTube clips from beers ago. So, you know, lawyers and fixers have definitely been trying to take care of this.

Very it. Because the documentary is incredibly damning. I mean, it shows Jackson at Neverland Ranch, and he goes buying expensive things at the Faberger store in Las Vegas. He attempts to bottle feed his child Prince Michael Jackson the first, but that doesn't go well. Oh, I think we have that. We have that. Let me show that. That's SOT 7.

I love you. Here he is. But I love you. It's a bottle. Wait, wait. Here's a bottle. It's okay, just get this off. Oh, please don't try, blanket.

Oh, my lord. Okay, okay, come on. Abu, abu, abu, ha, ha, boo. Yes, abu. Plankus, blak it, blanket, blanket. Blanket. I love you, blanket. Yes, yes, yes.

I love you. I love my children, very much. Why would I put a scarf over with the baby's face and I was trying to throw them off the balcony? We were waiting to thousands of fans down below, and they were chanting they wanted to see my child. So I was kind enough to let them see. I was doing something out of innocence.

Thank you. All right. All right. Jackson's behavior was beginning to alarm me. It looks like he has never encountered a baby before in his life, never mind held or fed one. That was shocking. And that's also the baby that he held over the balcony of the Hotel Adlon in Berlin. to cheering fans, which also caused a lot of, you know, frankly, horror and anguish among observers.

It was so strange. The crowd down below was cheering him, just like we've seen them do, like the famous Marilyn Monroe moment. Only Michael had his baby and decided, rather than just like even kind of gesturing, here's my baby, to literally put him on the opposite side of the railing of a balcony. I mean, like, it's, I don't even know what to say. say, but I remember that moment because it went everywhere. Then this was the cleanup he tried to do with Martin Bashir, where he doesn't, he's got the kid for listeners covered in a, like a green veil, like a green scarf, allegedly so we can't see the baby's face. Well, you can see right through it, and you can see what the baby looks like anyway. The baby hates the veil, not surprisingly,

especially when he's trying to get his bottle and Michael can't get it in his mouth and doesn't look like he's familiar with babies or with his baby or comfortable. Poor Martin Bashir, who must have been a father. I mean, just the way he, he, like, jumps in is basically like, please stop torturing that baby. This is awful. If you are listening to this show, I urge you to go to our show about an hour in and look at this video.

My God, go on YouTube and check this out. Good gracious. So the Martin Bashir interview didn't go well. I think we have one more from that exchange. Yeah, okay. Is it SOT? Okay, here's SOT 8, a little bit more. Watch.

How do you write a song? How do you write a song? How do I write a song? Well, if I sat down with this piano. What would happen? If I sat here and played some chords, whatever, and say, I'm going to write the best song ever written, nothing happens.

Something in the heavens has to say, look, this is the time that this is going to be laid on you, and this is when I want you to have it. Now, I remember when I wrote Billy Jean, I was writing in my car down Ventra Boulevard. All I said to myself beforehand, I want to write a song with a great bass hook, you know, and I just let it go, really,

and then several days later, you know, um, do, um, do, um, do, um, do, um, do, um, you know, where did that come from? From above. So that's just another flavor from the documentary. You got to know him, the good and the bad. Like, okay, yeah, that's the kind of thing we're tuning in for. Tell us.

How did Billy Jean come about? You know, it's like, I've had these conversations with Richie Sambora of Bon Jovi, and they're fascinating. Like, how did that rhythm come to you? Like, where were you when wanted dead or alive popped into your head, and he can tell you that story? And yet, we had a lot of the dark moments, too, last week or when we aired this right after the movie,

we played the sound bite where he tried to defend what could be more natural than sleeping in the bed together with a little boy. It's loving. It's the most loving thing you could do, which would haunt him for the rest of his life. And then here's a little bit where he was filmed with Gavin Arvizzo. And this would be the next boy to accuse him publicly. The Bashir thing was, what, 2000? Two, two thousand right around there?

Two, I think, yes. Two, three. Okay, three. And the criminal charges against him would be filed in 2005 by this, as a result of this boy, who he features. He's 12 years old. He's a cancer survivor. And he chooses to expose Martin Bashir to this boy, Gavin Arvizzo, in the documentary. When people hear that children from other families have come and they've stayed in your house,

they've stayed in your bedroom well very few but you know some have and they say is that really appropriate for a man a grown man to be doing that how do you respond to that? I feel sorry for them because

that's judging someone who wants to really help people why can't you share your bed the most loving thing they do is to share your bed with someone you really think that yeah haven't you got a spare room

or a spare house here where he could have stayed? Yeah, but no, yes, we have guests, but whenever kids come here, they always want to stay with me. And Gavin's head is resting on Michael's shoulder while he's saying that. Like, they look like lovers, or you could put an innocent explanation on it and say, you know, your own child might lean on you like that, you know, especially if you were under some sort of stress or attack, like they might lean on you like that, but this was not his child. This was somebody else's child, and this child would accuse him of molestation within 24 months. What does it feel like when your clothes actually feel good? This spring, cozy earth,

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at a foundational level to fortify gut health, support immune health, fuel recovery, and promote whole body vitality. Strong gut integrity can support metabolism, skin and hair health, and even performance and recovery, which is why cholesterol has long been very very. valued by some elite athletes as well. If you're looking to take back control of your health from the inside out, consider Armra.com. Consider Armra.com. Go to armra.com slash Megan. That's Armra.com. And enter that code, Megan, when you check out to get 30% off your first subscription order. Armra.com slash Megan. Hey, everyone. It's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on

Sirius X-F. It's called the Megan. Kelly Channel and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered with no agenda and no apologies. Along with the Megan Kelly show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halprin, Link Lauren, Morin Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics and many more. It's bold, no BS news only on the Megan Kelly channel, Sirius XM 11 and on the Sirius XM app. He got to know the Arvizos because, I mean, Gavin Arvizu, who you saw in that clip, he had a, he had a tumor that was, almost the size of like a grapefruit removed from his body and had stage four cancer and was right near death. And miraculously he recovered. And fortunately he's alive right now.

His mother is named Janet Arvizo. And Gavin had two siblings, Star, a brother and Davelin, a sister. And they appeared in the Bashir documentary. And Jackson was very close to the family. As always with families, he showered them with gifts and, you know, attention and, you know, I think I'm certainly paid for parts of Gavin's medical treatment was very generous and invited them to Neverland, et cetera. And at this point, you know, when the Bashir documentary was made, there was no accusations of abuse between Gavin Arvizo and Michael Jackson. But then after the Bashir documentary, came out, the Jackson camp went into damage control, and they invited the family up to Neverland

to create a rebuttal video in which the family was supposed to give long interviews praising Michael Jackson and saying nothing happened, everything was fine. Now, these interviews were never aired. The rebuttal video was aired with outtakes of the Martin Bashir documentary that showed Jackson in a more positive light. But allegedly, during the time that Gavin Arvizo and the Arvizo family were at Neverland doing the rebuttal video, that is when Gavin Arvizo alleged that Michael Jackson sexually abused. Arvizo alleged at the 2005 trial that Michael Jackson had given him wine, which Jackson called Jesus juice. And other, you know, James Safechuck also says Michael Jackson gave him wine.

Gavin R. Vizzo also said that Michael Jackson had shown him pornography to get him aroused. And in fact, Gavin R. Vizzo's fingerprints were found on copies of Hustler, barely legal, hardcore. So his fingerprints and Michael Jackson's fingerprints were both found on an issue of that magazine. And so Gavin Rives, once again, Gavin Rvizo's allegations were not given immediately to the police. He went to a child psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist reported the potential abuse. And that's what started the ultimate 2005 trial rolling.

And there was another search of Jackson's home and apartments in L.A. And they found yet more legal nude child erotica and also explicit adult homosexual pornography and explicit adult heterosexual pornography. A lot of it. And also porno DVDs, and much of it was in Michael Jackson's master bedroom, which he shared with children,

and it was accessible to them, perhaps not laying out, but in bookcases or in drawers. And that also became a part of the two, 2005 trial. And so Gavin Oviso accused Michael Jackson of abusing sexually abusing him during the filming of the rebuttal video. And that's what led to the 2005 trial. And there's other testimony around this same time. I don't know if it was at the trial, but about how now in the corridor leading to Michael's bedroom, they've added all these security alarms, like basically down a

25-yard hallway, like, lights will go off and alarms will sound if you get anywhere near Michael's bedroom, which has some six locks on it, including dead bolts, multiple dead bolts. Now, I mean, I understand as a public figure, you do need to feel safe in your bedroom. So, like, there's that defense there, but that sounds like a lot. So there is a question about whether that was there so that he could have a warning if anybody was coming. And there have been over the years a bunch of security guards and maids and other servants who have worked at Neverland who have come out to say he was doing it. Like I never saw him actually molesting somebody, but I saw him in his bedroom or I had to clean his bedroom with

like incriminating underwear, you know, boys underwear. Or, you know, I saw him pick up young boys and, you know, take him home to his bedroom, not like strangers, but like testimonies like that. But in every case, again, they were money grabs. These people wanted money. They either sued Michael for money or they took big tabloid payments to say these things. This is the thing that's so infuriating about this case, Andrew, right? It's like everybody had their handout. All I want is one, the few witnesses who come forward who didn't take money defend Michael,

like McCauley, Culkin. like Brett Barnes, they have never taken a dime and they defend Michael. I want one person who has not taken money who comes out to say, this is real. He did it to me and I don't want a dime. I just want you to know this is real. That would make it so much easier, you know, but like the fact that all these accusers took money is just so despicable in my view. I just, they've muddied the waters. Anyway, back to you. Yeah, that is, that's the argument that won the trial in 2005.

So Michael Jackson's lawyer, Tom Mezzaro, veteran criminal defense attorney, extremely good lawyer. He cross-examined all of these. They were all allowed to testify as sort of like pattern and propensity evidence to show that Michael Jackson had a tendency to abuse young boys. But Mezero tore them all apart in cross-examination. and the argument that he consistently made is if you really saw a child being abused with your own eyes by Michael Jackson, as you claim, or something that's extremely incriminating, why didn't you just immediately go to the police? And they didn't have a good answer for that. And they all had to admit they'd taken tabloid money, they had threatened to sue Michael Jackson, many of them were disgruntled employees who had been fired for cause. as Mesero was able to show.

And so the attempt to show this broad pattern fell apart because basically every one of the accusers had their handout or had a grudge or had changed their story. And so that is, you know, I say in the article that I think the jury's verdict was reasonable. They could have gone the other way, but acquittal was appropriate under the circumstances because there are so many,

holes in the prosecution's case because of these witnesses. Yeah. Here is Tom Mezzaro in 2019 speaking about the Jackson case, SOT 21. Do you think he's remotely or could have been remotely capable of doing any of those things? The things he's been accused of doing? Absolutely not. I am 100% convinced. Michael never abused a child, never harmed a child, certainly never molested a child. I think this is hogwash. Do you think if he was a child? Do you think if he was still alive, do you think these people would now be coming out and saying the same thing that he molested me? I just don't know.

I mean, I think I have to believe these are financially motivated accusations. I have to believe that because how else can you explain it? I take that into account too. But I personally am not involved in their civil lawsuits. I've not represented anybody in them. I've not been present for any of the proceedings. I don't know who said what in those cases. I just know the evidence that I saw.

And that leads me to a very powerful conclusion that Michael Jackson never abused a child at any time, never tried to hurt a child. We had testimony in the trial that he said he would slit his wrists before he would hurt a child. So, okay, that's Mesero. He believes his client. But in that trial, while he did a very good job

defending Michael Jackson, it was the cross-examination of the mother of the victim, the alleged victim, who sunk the case. So she sank the case. So what was so bad about the mother's testimony, Andrew? Like, why did she do so poorly? Well, I believe she was on the stand for something like five days. And the reason she was important is because the prosecutor had sought to sort of like up charge. the child molestation allegations by also saying that Michael Jackson and his employees had

essentially kidnapped the family and forced them to stay at Neverland Ranch to make these exculpatory interviews. And that was a bad mistake by the prosecution because, you know, Janet Arvizo took the stand. She snapped her fingers at the jury. She lectured. She went on long, rambling excursions. She had to be reprimanded by the judge over and over. And, you know, the defense attorneys kept pointing out, you could have left at any time. And, you know, you even left the ranch and came back to it voluntarily because you wanted the favors and you wanted the free lodging and, you know, the possibility of gifts from Michael Jackson. You weren't kidnapped. You weren't held against your will. And she was also, you know, she engaged in fraud, welfare fraud,

and perjury that she was convicted of after the trial. But there was already indications that she had basically applied for welfare, even though she had already gotten a $150,000 judgment in a lawsuit against J.C. Penny. You know, allegedly, one of the security guards attacked her in the parking lot. And she had all that money. the $150,000, and then she applied for welfare and got it and concealed that settlement, which she certainly did. And so she was completely non-credible, and Meserow painted her as sort of a grifting con artist willing to do anything to extort money from the Jackson estate. Now, it's true she didn't sue him before the criminal trial, but as we both know,

if had Michael Jackson been convicted, then the civil judgment against him would have been just, you know, a matter of pure form. You know, she could just sue him for civil damages and automatically win because he'd already been convicted. I do feel they need to say that we see this pattern oftentimes, whether it's a pedophile or a serial rapist of women or a harass or abuser, they, these victimizers choose their victims wisely. They don't usually choose somebody from an intact home with a loving set of present parents. and financial means, you know, they look for someone who's vulnerable, who might be, you know, in a difficult family situation, and whose credibility, the family as well, would be easy to destroy.

So I do feel the need to say that because is it possible he did that with these families? Yes, it is. It's possible. It's one of the possibilities that's out there. Okay. So he wins that trial and we go forward. Now, you point out in your piece that there's a journalist named Diane Diamond who worked for hard copy. And she's one of the people who busts this case wide open to begin with. She busted it open because she was given back in the 93 time frame a police report about him allegedly being a pedophile. And with the admonition, she said from somebody saying, this can't keep happening, as if there had been multiple reports. to authorities of Jackson being a pedophile.

So she's been on this for a long time, and she wrote a post script to, she wrote a book in 2005, but then she updated it after that Neverland documentary, again, in air quotes, came out. And she wrote the following, a highly placed law enforcement source once revealed to me the results of a forensic deep dive into Jackson's financials. The source said that that examination concluded that over the years, leading up to the 2005 criminal trial, the entertainer had doled out about two. $200 million worth of gifts and hush money to young boys and their families. This astonishing figure, you write, appeared to be confirmed by attorneys representing Wade Robson

and James Safechuck, who of his accusers featured in that Finding Neverland or Leaving Neverland, during civil litigation against the Jackson State in 2015. $200 million. If that's true, you say it's confirmed by attorneys representing these two, who would have had access to those kinds of numbers. It also does dovetail with what LaToya said in her later retracted soundbite about her mother showing her the checks that he'd written to multiple families, not just Jordy Chandler, it sounded like. And it would explain his financial ruin because on the day he died, the New York Times of the Daily just did a deep dive under this. On the day he died, his state was valued at zero given all the debt he was in and lack of income because these allegations,

had taken their toll. Yes, absolutely. Now, I mean, we can't really, of course, we can't completely verify the 200 million, but we know that at least 25 million is accounted for because he paid the settlement to Jordan Chandler and also to Blanca Francia, one of his former maids who accused him of abusing her son, Jason Francia. He settled that lawsuit for about $2 million, over $2 million, in the mid-1990s. And, you know, the other thing is that, you know, we all know how things work in Los Angeles,

if you're a lawyer, you have fixers who, you know, when a demand letter comes in from a potential plaintiff, the fixers come around and they make it go away. And if you have hundreds of millions of dollars, you can make a whole lot of things go away before they even hit the airwaves. And so it's not just the hush money payments and settlements and also gifts. He bought a house for Jimmy's James Safechuk's family. And he bought an incredible amount of expensive bling and incredibly expensive paintings and artworks. Yeah. So he was broke at the end of his life. And that's why after he, you know, after 2005 he was really broke, he couldn't pay his lawyers anymore. And that's when we almost had the pro-pedophile documentary from the makers of RuPaul's Drag Race.

What? Oh, this is, yeah, this, that they had to cut it out of the articles because the article was already too long, but in 2019, okay, the guys who make RuPaul's Drag Race, they're called Barbato and Bailey, and they're now very famous, they have a production company called World of Wonder productions. Now, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, they were making gay-themed schlacumentary, sort of like tasteless over-the-top movies about, you know, a gay drug kid murderer called Party Monster. And in 1996, World of Wonder Productions from Rupal's Drag Race, they tried to option a book about Michael Jackson, which contained explicit

descriptions of sex between Jackson and Jordy Chandler. This book is called Michael Jackson was my lover, the secret diary of Jordy Chandler. And the book was, it had private information from the Chandler's like bank receipts and medical records, etc. And so World of Wonder Productions, the Rupal's Drag Race People, wanted to make it into a documentary about the loving romance between Michael Jackson and Jordy Chandler. And in 2006, when Jackson was, yeah, when Jackson was broke, they finally did get the rights

to the book. They wrote four screenplays for this movie. The movie was going to be called Michael Jackson was my lover. There's a 2006 article in British GQ about this movie that was about to come out. They had raised $4 million for a pro

pedophile movie about the erotic romance between Michael Jackson and Jordy Chandler. This article is extremely hard to find. I had to, you know, you have to really work hard to find it, but I found it, and it's up on my YouTube channel now. I have a video about it. And so they were about to release in 2007, and even Barbato and Bailey, the guys behind Roald to Wonder Productions, they said, this shatters all expectations of what, you know, anybody can make. This is completely outrageous. And that's why we had to do.

to go to Europe to get funding because in America, the eke factor about a positive portrayal of pedophilia is so high. So we had to go to Europe. And they said they had raised four million dollars to make this movie. Of course, it never came out, but it was about to. A movie that portrayed Jordy Chandler and Michael Jackson as a sexual erotic couple who were deeply in love with each other without any hint of adverse judgment. Oh, that is sick. That is unbelievable. So Rupal didn't make the movie,

but he owned the company that was going to make the movie? No, the company is owned by two guys in Hollywood. You know, they make a lot of LGBTQ gay-themed content. Barbato and Bailey, and they own the company World of Wonder Productions, and that company now makes Rupal's drag race. If you go to the company's website, it says, we're bringing the underground into the mainstream

with, you know, uniqueness and extravagance. So now they're very mainstream. Back then, they were on the, you know, extreme cutting edge of what was tasteful. I don't think they are mainstream. I mean, honestly, I don't watch RuPaul's drag race, but I saw Kamala Harris went over there. And we had done a segment two weeks before Kamala Harris went over there to launch, like was one of her early campaign videos, was showing some crazy trans person, like a man walking down the runway with fake breasts in like bloody breasts in a bag around him with blood dripping down his chest, you know,

fake blood. It was so dark. So no, they really haven't cleaned up their act much. I mean, you can't go lower than glorifying pedophilia. But okay. So, all right. I don't want to keep you too much longer. But I do want to spend a couple minutes on the two names that we've been mentioning over and

which is Wade, Wade Robson and James Safechuck. Those are the two men who are featured in the, again, air quotes, documentary, leaving Neverland. And that was in 2019 at revived this whole debate, you know, in a massive way about what he was and what he wasn't, because these were, without question, two boys who, when they were young, 100% knew Michael Jackson and spent a lot of time with Michael Jackson. One, I think it was Wade won a dance contest. He was like a lookalike.

And one, James Afechuk was in an advertisement with Michael and did get to know him. And both of them testified at the trial in 2005 that Michael Jackson never laid a hand on them. Because we had the witnesses coming in, like the extras saying, like the maid's son, he molested me too. But we also had the character witnesses for Michael. Like these two, like McCauley Culkin, who went to that 2005 trial and said he didn't, he's never laid a hand on me. He's a, he's a very good guy. These are lies. But these two have come out in that so-called documentary to say, I was lying.

I was lying under oath then. McCauley Culkin, all these years, Emmanuel Lewis, too, the kid who played Webster, all these years, never, never laid a hand on me. I would tell you. Like, McCauley Culkin has said, like, it's kind of. fashionable these days to say, like, you've been a victim of something. He's like, trust me, if I had something to tell you, I would tell you, never laid a hand on me. So these two boys said the same, but then in 2019, cooperated with this filmmaker. And there are all sorts of credibility problems, especially with Robson, especially with Wade Robson. What's your view on it,

Andrew? Yeah, and even after, so Wade Robson testified at the trial in 2005, said, never laid a hand on me. I think Safechuck gave a deposition or a statement but didn't testify, but certainly they both over the years, over and over and said there was absolutely nothing going on. And even after the

2005 trial, they said there was absolutely nothing going on. And Robson especially was in contact with Michael Jackson and was trying to sort of like work angles to build his showbiz career with Michael Jackson's help.

after 2005. And he claims that he changed his view of Michael Jackson after he became a father. That's what James Safechuck also saved after he became a father, which, you know, that is sometimes a factor in cases like this, but certainly, and they both sued Michael Jackson's estate and his companies in 2013 and 2014. And they had to sue the estate in the companies because Michael Jackson was dead and the alleged abuse was long past the statute of limitations. So the theory of their lawsuit was that Michael Jackson's companies had been negligent in failing to prevent Michael Jackson from abusing them. And because the companies still exist and the estate still exists, that was a theory of the lawsuit. It was an extreme stretch. And the lawsuits were actually both dismissed. I believe

that Wade Robson initially claimed something at $1.5 billion from Mike. Michael Jackson's estate and companies in his lawsuit because he claimed that the abuse had made it unable, had made him unable to launch his show business career, which otherwise would have been extremely successful. So the lawsuits are a real stretch, and they are a money grab, and they were eventually dismissed. Now, California has updated its laws and changed the statute of limitations, so Robson and Safechuck's lawsuits have been revived and may now go to trial. And so then, you know, they told their story in 2019 in the, you know, documentary or the interview series. And the thing is, and, you know, it's not a documentary because it doesn't even attempt to provide any sort of balance in that part in that documentary. They're not cross-questioned. They don't go into the timeline.

They don't go into all the statements that they made supporting Michael Jackson over the years. But, you know, when I watched it at the end of the documentary, I thought, you know, these guys are, you know, they are flawed and they have questionable motives. I'm not sure if I can completely trust them. But the pattern that they described was consistent with the statements of many other accusers. Right. But. But all those had been public. prior to 2013 and 2014, or 15, when they filed their lawsuits.

So it, they absolutely could, like the Jesus juice, you know, you could study that. You just go back and read Jordy Chandler's account, read the, I always forget the second boy, Gavin's, read his account, you know, read the earlier accounts that were out there and you could come up with a credible story. I'm not saying it didn't happen to them. I really don't know, and I don't, I have no wish to traumatize little boys who were molested and then grew up and found the courage to talk about it. I'm just trying to be fair to Jackson,

who's dead and unable to defend himself here in pointing out you would be able to tell a credible story because the earlier allegations were not under seal. You could steal heavily from them and craft a story. And these two, I mean, apparently Wade Robson at Michael's 2005 trial was a star. Like he wasn't just a witness. He was a star.

and the prosecutor really tried to rattle him and get him to admit he did get molested that there was, Michael wasn't this upstanding, you know, never touch a child figure. And he was unrattelable in a way, it's been very hard for some people to believe a little boy would have been capable of, you know, that they believe the under oath testimony

where he said nothing happened. And they don't believe the current Wade Robson, who didn't make these out. until he thought he was going to be cast as the choreographer of the Cirque de Saleh, Michael Jackson show, and he wasn't. He wrote a book about his alleged experiences with Michael, and he reportedly lied about having done that. When asked if he had written anything under deposition in his civil case, he lied and said no. And it turned out he had. And I'm told, this is my own reporting, that they actually wound up getting the metadata on

that book by going to some of the publishing houses who had received electronic submissions. And it showed inconsistent testimonials from him. Like his story, even in the old drafts of his book on what happened to him changed dramatically from version to version, which is very devastating. You know, it's like, what do you mean? The abuse is the abuse. Like, why would it be changing from version to version? And he needed money.

You know, so there's a bunch of things with Wade Robson. I'll go into it in another episode in more detail because I do know a lot about these two in particular. And Save Chuck, we talked about this a couple weeks ago, but he also needed money, was facing some legal, some litigation when he filed his claim. And also on top of that, alleged that he was abused by Michael Jackson through 19, 94, sorry, sorry, that it ended in 1991 or two, the abuse of him. And he claimed that it happened repeatedly in this train station on Neverland, like a fun Disneyland type train station.

And after that so-called documentary came out, it was revealed that that train station wasn't even built until 1994. The application for the permit is public, and it was not filed in 93, and it's a public record that that train station didn't go up until 94. so there's no way James Safechuck was abused in that in 1991, no way. And the filmmaker who put him out there with that story said, oh, well, his date of the abuse must be wrong. It must have ended later than he thought. Well, that's not how his documentary presented it.

And Safechuck hasn't explained that three-year difference when he said in 91 or might have been two, but the reason it stopped was he had aged out. He's got, you know, a pedophile, as I've been trying to tell the audience for months now and related and unrelated stories, a pedophile is somebody who is attracted to pre-pubescent children. Prior to 13 is what the literature says, prepubescent. And all these kids have alleged that they did age out. They aged out of his attraction. And this is, Safechuck said that as well. And if it really worked, going on into 94 into that time frame, he would have been, I think, 16, which is aged out by his own description. And on top of that, Michael Jackson, by that point, was spending his time in New York, not at Neverland. So again, under, I don't know whether these guys are telling the truth or not. All I know is they too have serious credibility problems, which are coming as news to most viewers

who haven't been tracking the coverage really carefully that looks critically at some of the the allegations. That's wrong. You were meant to walk away from leaving Neverland thinking, I believe them. The whole thing was crafted to drive you to that belief as opposed to just presenting a fair both sides case from which you could walk away with an educated opinion. Yeah. And in fact, Dan Reed, the director, he just released in late 2025 a follow-up. it also has Neverland in the title and I watch that and that is a much much more conventional and totally unconvincing

follow-up documentary like traces how these lawsuits proceeded and in that documentary we see Robson and Safechuck with their families and they complain about how terribly traumatized they are but most of the new documentary is you know sort of sleazy Hollywood lawyers explaining how they were trying to maneuver the lawsuits

against Michael Jackson's estate. And so you see the lawyers, I don't want to call them sleazy, but they're kind of, you know, they're very lawyery in the way they, oh, my God, this, this and this. Yeah. And it makes it really, yeah, very slick and very unconvincing. And you also see that their lawsuits initially went nowhere

because the legal theory was basically invented. And then in this documentary at least, Dan Reed, the director, does give some time to the other side to people who defend Jackson and dispute Grobson and Safechuck's claims. I mean, after he completely poisoned everybody in 2019 with his original piece, it's like, okay, great. And it's no accident to me that these guys didn't come out until after Michael was dead. Like, and the same with the Cassios.

Those four children who are, that story is so bizarre. They're like three sons and a daughter of a guy who were. worked at the Hounsley Hotel in New York that Michael Jackson would swing through. And their dad was a hotel worker. And somehow he connected Michael with his children. And before they knew it, he was regularly visiting them in their New Jersey, very modest home. And Michael Jackson moved in with the family for three months after 9-11. Who's, wait, Michael Jackson's on the couch.

Michael Jackson's living with us back at our house. Okay. I'm like, the kids' school must have been. He's done that before. Yeah, he did that with Wade Robson. He moved in with, I mean, he moved into Jordy Chandler's house, and Michael Jackson would, like, when Jordy Chandler was going to school, Michael Jackson would show up at the house at like, you know, 5 p.m. after Jordy came home from school, sleep in the same bedroom with Jordy Chandler.

And then in the morning, Michael Jackson would leave while Jordy Chandler was at school. And then when Jordy Chandler come back, Michael Jackson would come and stay and sleep in the same. bed with Jordy Chandler. And that went on for at least a week. And it also went on with the Robsons. I mean, actually the Safe Chucks. The Safe Chucks also report, and there's evidence to back this up from like chauffeurs and documents that, you know, first of all, he bought them a house. And he also lived there for a long while. He called the Casios his second family back in 1992 and lived with them on and off for various times. Now, I also have a lot of doubts about the cashio allegations, because first of all, they've already been paid off. They received a

settlement of $16 million in 2020, and now the money's run out, and now they're saying Michael Jackson abused them all publicly for the first time. Exactly, same thing. And they all along had been defending him saying never, never, never. But now Michael's dead. Then they said that the leaving Neverland documentary in 19 led to an aha moment where one was like, I've got to. to tell my siblings, I really was molested. And then all the others are like, me too, including the girl. She's the only girl to ever come forward and say that she's been molested, as far as I know. Like, I'm not sure that tracks. There's one more. There's another girl? There's one more. Yeah, she's called Jane Doe. And she claims that, so she's never been, she didn't sue,

and her identity is not known. She claims Michael Jackson abused her in the late 1980s and early 1990s. And the only reason there is anything to this story is that, you know, she provided checks of, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars that Michael Jackson had made out to her, which apparently are authentic. But that doesn't prove anything about her claims or allegations, and there's no other corroboration. I mean, I'm interested in it because if you didn't sue, then it's good, but why is he giving her big checks? I mean, like, she must have threatened the lawsuit, otherwise he wouldn't have been writing those. But okay, so in any event,

so this family now suddenly after he's dead and the gravy train is getting back on track because right around that time, we were seeing the Cirque de Salee and the Broadway musical was launched, which actually turned out to be a hit, like everything related to Michael Jackson, the Cirque de Salé was a hit,

the Broadway show was a hit, the movie was a hit. The music is coming back. There is a very, very strong, appetite for Michael Material and they realized it and suddenly they've had an epiphany. I don't think their lives are going that great. They didn't look like they were living large. And, you know, they're like, what could it hurt? That's my own assessment about them. Could be wrong. I don't know. But that was, they're awfully late to the story. Okay, I want to finish with where you finished in the

piece because I thought it was a, it was very well done. You know, you spent a couple of good pages on like, what is a pedophile? What do pedophiles do? And like in general, if you, if you zoom out, does Michael Jackson's behavior that we know he did match? And you write about something called the preferential pedophile. And you write that a preferential pedophile. Okay, so, well, first you say this, citing a book from 2010 study, child molesters, a behavioral analysis. say preferential child molesters, typically proceed by seducing their child target, much in the same way that adults seduce one another. They tend to focus on attention-starved children from broken or dysfunctional homes. At first, the pedophile wins over the child's parent or parents by

offering them support, advice, services, or gifts, and showering them with praise. You mentioned he bought some houses. Once the parent's guard is down, the pedophile, or maybe cardi A bracelet. Once the parent's guard is down, the pedophile turns out. The pedophile turns out. his attentions to the child. Spending time on things adults and children can do together without arousing suspicion, such as visiting an amusement park or sporting event, playing games with them, giving them gifts, and smothering them with attention and praise. I mean, it's just when you think about the Neverland Ranch through this lens, it feels plain as the nose on your face. Preferential pedophiles are often noted to be very good with children, able to talk to them easily

and understand their worldview, perhaps even better than their parents. Their homes will often feature interests or items of interest to children, such as game consoles, toys, puppets, or figurines. What did we hear in the movie, Michael? You know, we saw his room with all the stuffed animals and brings the Twister game home. And we've heard from Mark Garagos that he had a two-story arcade at the Neverland Ranch that was like, you know,

something out of the 80s where, you know, we all used to go and hang out and play space invaders. the kids loved it. Not to mention, you know, the ferris wheel and the rides and on his front lawn and the trains and so on. So game consoles, toys, puppets, figurines, pedophiles, writes Lannning, the author of that study, often referred to children using words like clean, pure, innocent, or impish. The homes of some pedophiles, writes Laning, have been described as shrines to children or as miniature amusement parks. After the pedophile has created a situation in which he and the target child can spend time alone, he must convince the child to keep secrets. To this end, the pedophile often encourages the child to engage in naughty behavior,

such as smoking, drinking, cursing, or viewing pornography. My God. This creates a bond of shame and secrecy. Some pedophiles resort to outright threats or violence, but that is rarely the case with those who follow a seduction model. I mean, Andrew, this is like I don't, it's like

we're 10 for 10 here on the matchups. And that's, you know, the author of that that I relied on, among others, is Kenneth Lanny, who was a child sexual abuse specialist for the FBI for decades

and, you know, participated in thousands of cases and interviewed thousands of pedophiles. And the behavior pattern just fits so closely. You know, Neverland was an amusement part. If you look at the faxes that Michael Jackson sent away drops and it's love bombing. You know, Michael Jackson spent, you know, five or six hours on the telephone to young boys just talking about how wonderful his ranch was and everyone he met on the tour and the great things they were going to do together. And, you know, Michael Jackson,

even, you know, he refers to you share your bed with somebody. It's the cleanest, purest in a sweet, innocent thing to do. Because pedophiles, they don't think that what they're doing is wrong. They believe that they are showing love to another human being and helping a young

boy blossom and they're providing him with or her, you know, with attention and advice and material assistance. And occasionally they have a little play doctor session, which both of them enjoy.

That is that the, and as Lannin says, the first time they're accused, pedophiles always, always deny. They say, of course not. I would never do something like that. And then only when they're confronted with the evidence, you know, with the hard drive full of pictures or, you know, surveillance photos. Then they say, okay, well, maybe we did that. But, you know, I understand this kid, this kid comes from a broken home. He had nothing going for him. His parents were abusive and neglectful, and I provided him with love and attention and gifts.

And that's supposed to be wrong. That's supposed to be immoral. Who else was going to take care of this? So to clarify, in the mind of a pedophile like this, this preferential pedophile, because I guess there's another type that's like, I don't know, whatever, but for purposes of our discussion, that's what we think Michael might have been, that that person genuinely doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. Like, he recognizes society has a judgment on it, but in his mind, he genuinely is like, this is okay. He's not like, this is so wrong what I'm

going to do it anyway. Yeah, that is, you know, that's the pattern. It's also the pattern in that weird book I was talking about that almost got made into a movie. The book about Michael Jackson containing this explicit description of sex with Jordy Chandler was positive toward that relationship. And when you ask pedophiles, you know, the smarter, many of them are very intelligent and very social and educated. They'll say, you know, look at ancient Greece. It was always accepted then. Look at Oscar Wilde.

So they have historical parallels to it. And they believe that it's just some people have a natural preference for members of the opposite sex or members of their own sex. And some people have a natural preference for children. And some children. And this is the sinister thing. as you know as I pointed out as the that movie in 2007 that almost got made from people behind ruPaul's drag race that movie was going to portray jordy chandler as the initiator of this sexual relationship with michael jackson that was going to portray him as wanting to have sex with michael jackson as being a young gay boy who who who was absolutely floored by his idol and now had the chance to become intimate and erotic with his idol and took it. So he's the one who seduced Michael Jackson. That was going to be the theme of the movie, you know, as far as we know, according to the reports. And that's what pedophiles

also say. A big question for a lot of us, you know, covering the news these days. Do we have any idea how widespread this is? Do we have any idea like, you know, they say, who knows if this is true, but they say like one in every four person is a sociopath? Do we have any idea like how wide spread pedophilia is or there's just no way of knowing because the vast majority of them understand this needs to remain underground or they will lose their freedom and possibly worse. Sure. And I mean, the prevalence, it's very low. It's probably well under 1%. Thank goodness. And the one thing that, you know, if Kenneth Lannning, the FBI guy and other researchers were here right now, what they would say is if you're thinking of pedophiles as a weird

nasty guy at the park in a dirty overcoat or something like that. That's completely wrong. The people who are convicted of child molestation, first of all, half of them are married, only a quarter of them have any kind of hardcore child pornography, and the vast majority are in positions of authority and respect where they can have contact with children, like in churches, schools, and youth groups. And so don't look for pedophiles at the park or in a dark alley. Look for them as being, like weird, older men who have a very unusual interest in children who get along with them really well and who show them a lot more attention than most males do and who are in a position to get access to children in like a school or a church or a Boy Scout group. Those are the

people who are most likely to be pedophiles. So at the end of the three months and the article, and I know these things go through so many drafts and so much editing, so you've become deeply familiar with this subject matter at this point. What's your judgment? What's your takeaway on Michael Jackson? I think Michael Jackson was a pedophile, which doesn't necessarily mean he was a tribal molester. But I think that, you know, looking at the forest and not the trees.

So the trees are all the individual accusers, all the rumors, speculation, gossip, and all of that. But when you look at the forest, there is a consistent pattern of him seeking out inappropriate contact with young boys and engaging in clear grooming behavior with young boys. And there are numerous accusations of him moving on. And also pedophiles don't just randomly go after every child they meet. And Michael Jackson loved children, and he also treated young girls very well and took them to Neverland. and, you know, foreign friendships with them too. He loved children, and he was in many ways an extremely decent, kind person and a humanitarian. But when he saw a certain kind of beautiful

young boy that he was deeply attracted to, that's when he went into manipulative grooming mode. And after, you know, a long selection process determining how close he could get, how many red lines he could cross, how much the child would be willing to tolerate in an unknown number of cases. I believe he did cross that line and sexually abused children, not in a violent way. The distinction you're making between you believe he was a pedophile and maybe not a child molester, but you believe yes, is that you could be a pedophile without acting on it, you're saying. Yeah, they call themselves virtuous pedophiles. And so there are support groups for, it's almost always men, of course,

who are attracted to children and who have committed to never acting on it because they know it's wrong and it's immoral and it's harmful. And they call themselves a virtuous and I know I have to hand them credit. If they don't act on it, then nobody is harmed. And, you know, I think that's what Michael Jackson should have done. He should have gotten help, tried to redirect his impulses. And if he couldn't redirect them to, you know, maybe young, 8.000. year old men, you know, which is, you know, what they call twinks in the gay community. I'm not gay, but, you know, I know the term. You know, if he couldn't do that, then he had a more responsibility

to not act on those desires. And I believe he did. We did talk about before, there's tape of Michael Jackson talking about how Joe Jackson, who is without a question abusive of his children, but I don't know about sexually abusive, but physically abusive. But there is a little bit of, but there tape of Michael Jackson saying that his father, before the beatings, used to make him get naked and used to rub oil all over Michael before he beat him with the cord of an iron. Now, that's just bizarre. I mean, it's just, I've never heard of the most abusive dads we've heard of in the news, forcing a child to get naked and oiling him up. So that's strange. That's definitely strange and you know sometimes with child abuse sexual abuse it can perpetuate itself like if it was done

to you there seems to be a higher likelihood that you're going to do it to somebody else um there's no allegation he beat any children but i i mean the possible possibility of sexual abuse unconfirmed but it was something that was really jarring to listen to uh joe jackson was not a good man and it seems like the entire family admits that because they're all behind this movie and he's portrayed terribly in it. So clearly everyone, including Catherine Jackson, who's Joe Jackson's wife and Michael's mom, who's still alive, she was fine with him being betrayed as a complete abusive bastard, too. So like, this is not a good person if we're looking for the wise. And look how Michael died. You know, look how he died. He was, he became a drug addict long before he actually

died. Now, he'd been through a lot. You know, he's got that terrible burn. He'd been, you know, dragged through the criminal courts. And if you were innocent, that would really stress you. But like, you have to wonder what was haunting him so badly that he needed propofall to get any rest at night, to fall asleep at night. Like what kind of demons were in there? And I'm not sure we'll ever have a definitive answer, you know, without like a videotape or a photo. We're going to be left to figure it out ourselves. And then the next question, as I said, to then ask ourselves whether it matters when it comes to our ability to enjoy the art as opposed to the artist.

I don't know. Have you thought about that, Andrew? Somebody who's been, like, neck deep in this. Are you able to, like, enjoy a Michael Jackson song or watch the movie and admire the dancing? Yeah, I watched the movie and I really enjoyed it. I mean, it's not something deep or profound, but it's fantastic entertainment. Michael Jackson was an absolute musical genius. And, you know, he had a lot.

He was also an incredible humanitarian who gave millions and millions. to charity. And the music is fantastic. I think of it as, you know, do you like the music of the Rolling Stones? Well, the Rolling Stones had sex with 13-year-old groupies all through the 1970s. You know, Roman Polansky is a great director, and he also raped a 13-year-old girl in 1977, and probably did... Jerry Lee Lewis. Jerry Lee Lewis. I mean, the list goes on and on. Wasn't it the girl he married 13? Yeah, exactly. And that was a huge scandal back then. It was technically legal. And, you know, if you look at contemporary artist, Picasso was a bastard. And all through history, you know, Leonardo da Vinci was a pedophon and a pederast in his time. And so I think you can enjoy the art, you can enjoy the music, but always with an asterisk. And the asterisk must mean that no matter how rich you are, no matter how gifted, no matter how famous,

if you abuse your intelligence and gifts to exploit children, then you must, that must always be a part of your legacy. It must always be mentioned. And anything that doesn't mention it is a whitewash and dishonest. Totally fair. I love the way you said that. And I completely agree with you.

Andrew Hamel, thank you so much for writing this piece. Again, it's at Quillette. If you Google it, you'll find it, but the name is Never, Neverland, the new Michael Jackson biopic and the campaign to whitewash the King of Pops reputation by Andrew Hamill, H-A-M-M-E-L. Thank you. Thank you. This is an important conversation.

We really appreciate it. You're very welcome. I really enjoyed it. All the best to you. Thanks. Wow. Wow. Gosh, I'm like, I couldn't stop reading the piece.

I sent it to so many people because there's even more detail in the piece if you read it, which maybe you will now. I first listened to the audio. You know, I love my audio news, and then I printed it out because I was like, I know I need to lay eyes on this piece and actually read it, which I did multiple times. Well worth your time because there's even more details in there, and it's well written too. I'd love to know your thoughts because I feel like you guys have been through this with me now. We've done several in-depth looks at this.

And at some point, I will do the deeper dive into Wade Robinson and James Safechuck with you because I do know a lot about those two. What do you think? What do you think? Those two questions, was he and does it matter to you when it comes to your ability to enjoy the art? I mean, I know it matters to you. But like, does it matter to you when it comes to the ability to enjoy his songs, his dancing, this movie, the rehabilitation that's underway of his image? What do you think about it? Email me. It's Megan, M-E-G-Y-N at Megan Kelly.com. Back live with you all on Friday. See you then. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

No BS, no agenda, and no fear.