All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg - Are Psychedelics the Key to Living Forever? (ft. Bryan Johnson)

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

(0:00) David Friedberg intros Bryan Johnson (0:54) Why Bryan Johnson did 5-MeO-DMT (12:56) What brain scans actually show (18:36) Psychosis, bad trips, and life-altering decisions (26:23) The next frontier: organoids and gene therapy (33:26) GLP-1s, abundance, and human optimization (35:35) The longevity drug nobody's talking about? Thanks to our partner for making this happen! The Pod by Eight Sleep cools your bed to 55°F and uses Autopilot to optimize your sleep, all night. Use code ALLIN at https://www.eightsleep.com/allin for up to $350 off. Follow Bryan: https://x.com/bryan_johnson https://www.youtube.com/BryanJohnson Follow the besties: https://x.com/chamath https://x.com/Jason https://x.com/DavidSacks https://x.com/friedberg Follow on X: https://x.com/theallinpod Follow on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theallinpod Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theallinpod Follow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/allinpod Intro Music Credit: https://rb.gy/tppkzl https://x.com/yung_spielburg Intro Video Credit: https://x.com/TheZachEffect

Brian Johnson, thanks for being here. Yeah, it's good to see you. How are you feeling? Maybe just share with us what you did a few days ago. Yeah, I did five MEO DMT, which is the most powerful psychedelic on the planet. It's somewhere between five and ten times more powerful than DMT. And so, yeah, it's, so it's been 48 hours. I'm still learning how to talk about it.

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Go to 8Sleep.com slash all in and use code all in for up to $350 off your pod purchase today. Before we get into your experience, why did you choose to do it? Two things. One, mostly as a longevity experiment. So when I started this project five years ago, the approach we had was go through all the scientific evidence ever published on health and longevity, try to find the interventions that have the best evidence for effect size. And we just went down on the list from top performing on down.

So of course, you start with exercise, nutrition, sleep, and you work your way down to things like hyperboric oxygen therapy and sauna and then rapomycinmine. And so we never actually had on our radar psychedelics. They were always either ancient medicine, you know, being used in ritualistic practices or being pointed at things like depression and anxiety in certain trials. But it was never understood as a rejuvenation protocol, something that was for anti-aging. And so we found a pre-clinical evidence in mice on psilocybin. We thought, that's interesting. And so we did the world's most studied, the most quantified experiment doing psilocybin,

three doses at 25 milligrams of psilocybin. Which are pretty high doses. Yeah, it's a clinical dose. A very, very close to a hero dose. And we found that we think it's a range of a longevity therapy. Let's get to that data in a minute. But then you decided to try 5MEO this weekend. Yes.

Walk me through the experience because you televised the whole thing. It was live streamed. You looked amazingly calm going into it and going through the process. Walk us through your experience. Yeah, I think those who have done 5MEO would probably relate with me that it feels like an impossible task to explain what it's like. So that caveat said, I'll give it a go. I'm stunned, absolutely floored, speechless. You basically experience raw consciousness and raw intelligence.

It's this. So whatever, when I say these words, take these words that I commit to you, take that idea, multiply it by a thousand, and then move out infinite depth, infinite width, width, and depth, and then dimensions. And like, that gives you kind of like a rough map of like the size and space that you deal with. And it was incredibly hard because you, you get blasted into this space that is so foreign, you don't even know what's happening. It happens very quickly. Like, you inhale it. I did nine milligrams of and then 18 of vaporized and it hits you within 10 seconds.

You're just out. And so, but what happens is you get in that space and then you visual changes. Very little visual. Like you see on DMT, it's very visual. You'll meet the, you know, like the elves or whatever else. This is not a visual experience. But you get in this world and you lock in to basically, you know, you, you know, you, you either panic because you feel like the gates of hell are going to open,

that the stream of existence is going to just tear you to shreds. It's going to shard you. And if you give up. Like break your brain. Yeah. You feel like it's going to like threaten your sanity. Like is it going to chop you up into little pieces? And so in that moment, you have to say, do I try to wrestle this?

And I need to just like wait it out until it's over. Or you just relent. You say yes. And you have to, in that moment, you have to say yes so thoroughly. You have to release all attachment, all preconditions, all want, all desire. You have to release self, ego, control. You just have to just relent entirely. And then when you do that, it opened up this unimaginable bliss and euphoria.

And again, this is like a V1 of trying to explain. this, but if I list out the most dynamic experiences I've had of a human, you know, like certain accomplishments or getting married or having a child or overcoming a difficulty or like, you know, state your list of things, this is without question the most dynamic experience I've ever experienced as a human. Does the internal chatter, the internal monologue of the ego turnoff? Does. So you can't hear your sense. self-speaking, how do you rationalize what's going on if you don't have a dialogue going on? It's this visceral feeling.

Like, you're hyper aware of what's happening. It's not like you block out in the first, like, we think a very high dose. You don't really know what's happening in the first few minutes, but then you kind of come to and you're hyper aware of everything. It's not visual, but it's this, you're in the depths of existence. Like this, it's just the most majestic experience achievable by intelligent life. I just can't imagine anything more miraculous. You've studied the biology, the biochemistry.

What goes on in the brain as this molecule hits your neurons? Yeah. I mean, like, it, I mean, one, it completely dissolves your default mode network. Describe what that is. So, like, this is the engine that constructs self and ego. And so as you ruminate, you know, like you're going through thinking through your day, what's next? Exactly. How am I feeling?

Yeah. What should I be doing right now? Constant conversation. Yeah. Do I feel bad about myself? Do I feel, you know, like I, I am I shy? Am I, like, do I feel bad about whatever? Like, you're doing this rumination stuff.

Kids don't have this rumination loop. Their default mode network is, is quiet. And as you age, you basically build up this default. mode network into more stiffer patterns. And so as you age, your experience of reality becomes increasingly narrow. You have these big ruts that form. And so you can just see people in their patterns, like how open a child is to say like very random things.

And as adults, you're just very, you're shut in. Like when I did psilocybin, one of the reasons why we did it is because it does have this effect where it dampens the default mode network. And we can pick this up with kernel, the brain interface. You can see how the default mode network weakens. So basically, like think of the brain like a globe. with airports scattered about, and you have certain traffic patterns

like New York to London. You have a certain number of flights every day. That's like a very strong connection. But New York to some small town in Arkansas has a very low traffic map. And so when you do something like psilocybin, it basically takes the airports, picks them up, and then repositions it around the world,

so it's all scrambled. So the traffic patterns aren't the same. And then over time... The neurons don't physically move, but the activity shifts around. Exactly. Right. The neurons are a little bit more random than they normally would be, which arguably drives neuroplasticity, causes those neurons to reach out for new connections. And when new connections are made, new behaviors, new ways of thinking emerge coming out

of these therapeutics. Is that a fair way to describe it? Exactly right. So when you look at my brain on psilocybin from Kernel, you see my patterns before, like the New Yorkshire London connection. You see my brain afterwards, and it's exactly what you said. New patterns are emergent. The old ones have quieted down. It's like a new map of connectivity. And so we saw that happen and that does generate a lot of neuroplasticity. And obviously this neuroplasticity

rewiring these connections in the brain is what allows trauma victims or folks that have a certain wiring that they keep repeating in their brain, which causes the trauma and the anxiety in their lives to get rewired. And then that trauma and that anxiety feels like it dissolves or melts away.

Is that a fair? Exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. And so this has been, documented in psilocybin. It's kind of well understood. How did you connect that psilocybin data to an effort in longevity? Or was this just like a random idea? Let's try it out. So we saw some mouse data that it had these effects. It also showed reduced inflammation.

So we said like this is interesting because most longevity therapies do something with inflammation, right? Like inflammation is the killer. So if you can lower inflammation, a very good sign. if you can do something that makes the brain more youthful and takes down those big ruts, that's also useful. What we found at Silo Cibon, though, is we found a first in human observation. It had this metabolic reset in the brain

where my blood glucose before this was in the top 99.5 percentile of all the population. After, it went to the top 99.9.9 percentile. To move my blood glucose from that level is very, very hard. But basically, like, not like, metformin where you're doing something in blood glucose, this just had a reset across the body, also changed my microbiome.

So we saw a full-on effect. So then we said, okay, if that had that consequence, 5MEO may have some similar characteristics. So no one had done this in 5MEO before. Exactly. So there's like, there's potential animal evidence.

But it's the similar dynamics of like, can you take the brain and can you basically like smooth out the barnacles that accumulate? And 5MEO DMT, compared to psilocybin, just absolutely like blasted clean my default mode network. It felt like psilocybin dampens it,

like it softens it, but this thing just annihilated my default mode. Turned it off completely. Yeah. It just doesn't run the same way. Like, for an example, like this morning I woke up, catching myself laughing in a dream. I have not laughed in a dream.

I don't even know what I've ever laughed in a dream. But that is, after I woke up, I was like, that's really weird. Like, I don't remember laughing. I looked it up. And like, that is a characteristic of a child. Right. And so you are restored to this childlike state. And, I mean, the past couple days, I have felt childlike.

You know, yesterday morning, I felt that, you know, that emergent excitement, the bubbling of like today is so exciting. I'm going to do new things. I'm going to have new experiences that you're just excited about all things. I haven't felt that. I don't even know when, you know, for so many years. So, like, it really was profound on every layer. And I see it. I'm stumbling too because I didn't even have to talk about it yet.

During the day, you're hanging out, you're walking around. Is your brain having the same normal chatter that it did before? Or do you think that there's a persistent change in that default mode network? Yeah, definitely a change. Like, I was with my partner, Kate, yesterday. And we, I did something that made her up. set. And so like in that situation, you know, like when, when couples are in that moment, you have like this negotiation. How do I sort this? And it all just became so clear to me,

like, when children have a fight, you have it out and then it's just like done. Yeah. And you move on. But then adults take that and they like package it up and like they want to weaponize it. Be like, I got something on you. And I'm like move it. I'm going to move the chest pieces and like try to leverage this. And or they stored up like a snake in one of those things that pops out all the snakes later. You know, it's like. like package it all up. Exactly. And so like we had this and I just felt absolutely like no need to escalate or to defend or to

like it was just easy. And it was a breakthrough in our relationship where I was able to communicate with her in a way. And so it's like laughing in my sleep. It's how I deal with my partner. When I walk around, I just feel so much. I feel so much more funny. You know, like my ability to make quick.

whips that are just immediate. You know, like, so yeah, I just feel renewed as a person in a way that I just really didn't imagine. Have you tried hallucinogenics before you started your longevity path a couple of years ago? Yeah. And did you do that recreationally or therapeutically? It was mostly therapeutic in that I had sold my company, Branch of M.O., I got a divorce. I left the Mormon church.

And I was trying to remap, like, what is life? Who am I? What do I do? So it was in that rebuilding stage where I just dabbled of like, you know, I did ketamine at Kernel. So one of our first studies at Kernel is we said ketamine was an up-and-coming therapy for depression. And we posed a question, what happens when you do ketamine? And so we did the world's most extensive measurement of ketamine with kernel before, during, and after. And so that was interesting.

And it had some kind of, you know, transient effect. But that's like a like a little league relative to 5MEO. And so as you've gone through this, maybe share a little bit of the MRI data that you're gathering and the other data mapping neurological effects. Yeah. And tell us a little bit about what you've learned. So far, nothing. I have my subjective experience to share, but we have a structural brain MRI. We have a functional brain MRI. We did kernel, which is like an optical interface. And then I did real-time EEG capture. And we should just talk about, I think it's important. Structural, you can see the physical brain. Functional, you can see. You can see.

the activity in the brain. So neurons firing and neurons that are not firing. Yes. Right. Yeah. And then electrical actions that are measured by an electrical device. So we basically like wanted because the brain is very, so we've had a lot of success rejuvenating my heart and my lungs and muscle and body fat. But rejuvenating the brain is very hard. Right. And so we, this is why this is such a problem in therapy. So we wanted to look at the brain through every modality possible. We wanted to look at blood flow, structural, molecular, you know, the wave pattern form. So it's a very high fidelity quantification. And so we'll see what the data comes out. I'm very excited. You did this on psilocybin as well, right?

You mapped the brain over time. What did you learn there? Dramatic restoration of youthful brain patterns. Yeah, right. Yeah. And what comes after 5MEO? I mean, how far do you take this? Yeah. Honestly, I am so encouraged by psychedelics. I, you know, like in the community where I hang out, psychedelics have always been understood as, you know, it's like a retreat or it's like a ritual. You go to like do various explorations, but never in the world of longevity. It's never been understood as that thing. And now after seeing the data, now I, I, um, And, first, you have to be very careful when talking about psychedelics because they're extremely powerful. It's not like, go out and do them, everybody, right?

It's like, it needs to be done properly with a licensed professional. It needs to be done carefully. The person needs to be in the right state. Like, it is not to be taken lightly. But I am more interested than ever in psychedelic compounds. They're just uniquely powerful. There's some arguments to be made that psychedelics can induce permanent psychosis. Yeah.

Cause functional changes and drive some people. that might be predisposed into schizophrenic states. That's right. How did you get over those risks? Because for a lot of people, that would turn them off to trying psychedelics. And it's not a non-zero percentage of people that suffer these consequences.

Yep, I agree. And also people who have really bad trips that leave them scarred. So it really is. And I think part of it is what could be contributing to this is people who, for example, who have tried magic mushrooms,

you know, it's in a social situation. Someone's got a bag. You pull out some mushrooms. It's like, yeah, like weighs blank. And they pop it in, but they have no idea what kind of mushroom strain they're eating. They don't know what the dose of psilocybin is. So it's like unquantified, unsupervised, wrong set and setting.

And so much of it, I think you can, the risk persists, but I don't think we've approached psychedelics with the appropriate rigor that we should to make it safe. And so it's not to say that we can solve for the safety issue for all people. Some people, which may not be the appropriate candidate for it. But I think if we do create a safety structure around it, they could deliver the benefits people want without, you know, with less of the risk. But definitely I agree with you. Like it's, again, it deserves all the caution in the world. Do you think it's like neurogenic, neuroplasticity, trauma resolution? I mean, what is the

way that this is going to be allowed to become, call it a medical therapeutic that can be more broadly trialed and then eventually figure out how to bring it to people? without it being carrying all the risks and burdens that it goes today. I mean, if I just subjectively compare my experience with 5MEO to having a better diet and exercising every day and sleeping well and doing the sauna and doing hyperbric oxygen therapy, this was more efficacious than all of them in terms of the reset of me as a human. It just is incomparable. And I guess I'm really left pondering. for this molecule to have such a gigantic impact.

Now, like, how long will it last? What's the decay curve like? You know, will I find I become the former brine within 30 days, 60 days? So I have to repeat this again. I don't know. But it really is, you know, when you sleep well, you feel great. You exercise, great. But like nothing like what 5MEO did in terms of like the reset of me as a human.

So let's just talk about the consequences outside of the physiological, which is life. Yeah. There are lots of stories and friends that I have that and people that I know that have tried a heavy psychedelic, like an ayahuasca or something. They were the CEO of a company, and then they quit their company and they go off to the jungle, leave their family, divorce their partner, make such dramatic life changes because their perspective has been shifted so much that they reevaluate what matters in life to such a degree that they give up a lot of the things that mattered before. Yeah. In the wake of that, there are people that feel they're a victim of that behavioral shift, the investors in the company, the employees, the family members, et cetera. Can you just talk a little bit about those broad risks? Because we've seen it, and I don't know if you've seen the same, but friends that have kind of like said, I have this new perspective, I'm giving up my life. I've seen the same thing. And one investor told me that he even put it in the deal docs,

that if we invest, you're not going to do these psychedelics. Because they wanted to minimize the risk profile. It's a thing. In your deal, in an investment in you? No, I just spoke because I've been doing this, people bring this up as a topic of conversation. Right. And so they say, like, I see you're doing this for longevity,

but, you know, like, I've seen so many examples where people put money in, then you lose the founder. Like they're off. Everyone's high and dry. And so they were telling me that they put into Dill Docs that they can't do this for the duration of the company. So it is a thing. And I have nothing to say about it other than I know what happens. Also, I would say that most people in the tech world that I'm familiar with, again, they've done this in retreat centers or in social environments.

It's not quantified. It's not set in setting. So it's a different thing. will say like, you know, I guess me as a person, what I'm trying to focus on, I came back even more motivated to do what I'm doing now. I don't have a desire to go off in the woods, you know, and like, and live that kind of life. It, it emboldened me to work on these things, but no question about it. You, you do have a dramatic shift in perspective. And it's very hard to It begs a very important philosophical question. Who am I? Yes. If I'm defined,

by my experiences, it roughly equates to my neurons are wired in a way. That's a consequence of my experiences. And if I go in and take a drug and in a few hours, rewire all my neurons, am I the same person? Yeah.

What makes Brian Brian? You can maybe recall some memories of Brian prior to taking the psychedelic, but Brian as a person has been rewired. Yes. Are you a different person now? And what does that say about are we ever a persistent person? Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Your question is spot on. Probably the most dramatic reconstruction of your 60 plus trillion cells than anything you can do in life. You know, maybe like a near-death experience, you know, would maybe be close, but it's a dramatic rewiring of you as a human. Your values can change too. That's right. And you could judge the values pre and post, right?

You could judge values ascribed to you by a religion. or perhaps values ascribed to you by responsibility to family members, children, spouses, partners, what have you, you abandon them after you go through this change. So your values have changed. Is it right or wrong? That's right. I think it's another important question that comes out of all this.

I agree. And like you now, like you now think about that. That's with through the frame where the world changes a certain speed. Now you take the world where it's changing faster. So we now know that it's hard to predict what's going to happen two weeks from now. or a month, right? Like, things are changing very quickly. And so now you come up with this practical question,

can humans change fast enough in the world where AI is the dominant engine of innovation? And so in that case, you may want psychedelics as your ally to say, as a human, I'm struggling to move with the change. And so there's potentially where it flips from a liability to an asset, where now I do want that restructure changing, even though you have some tell risk of, like, maybe my priorities will shift. I think you have profound what I would call psychoflexibility. And I think most people don't.

They have either a disinterest in changing who they are overnight or they're fearful of the ramifications or the experience and that they wouldn't go through it. How far would you take it? Would you wire yourself up to a neural link or a neural enhancement device that would give you the ability to have information on demand and maybe change your person, and capacity as a human through an implant, would you consider doing something like that? You would. Would you consider a transgenic system where you basically take a plasmid,

which would then express a set of proteins in your body and change gene expression profiles and cells in your body and basically could rewire you as a different person? Yes. Yes. Is there a limit to what you would try? No. Interesting. Where do you think that comes from? I think I find it to be the most exciting configuration of life. The ability to play. play on the frontier. A novelty and expedition and challenge. That's really my... Did you always have it, or are you responding to

childhood suppression of those... It's probably an overcompensation of trauma response, like most things are. And so, you know, as a child, I lived in a very structured religious environment where things were cemented. Like, here's the story, here's the plan, here's what you do and what you don't do. Yeah.

And so, yeah, maybe it's probably just... I'm now flipped in the... opposite. And so, I mean, that's like probably true that I really, I don't trust my internal generation of reality. You know, I know I'm always making things up. I've got 188 chronicle biases, like all humans do. So I'm just, I'm generally suspicious of all things all time. And I don't take myself very seriously. So I just find the frontier play space to be like, right now, I mean, you know, what you're doing in building a company is like, you just open up a toolkit and say, like, what can I build? And how do I modify? And so I agree with you.

I do have a strong proclivity towards openness play. Do you find that you've been challenged in maintaining, I would call it external responsibility as you explore and enhance yourself so much, do you give up the responsibility to others around you who maybe are dependent on you or in need of you? Yeah, I have three kids. And so I do think about them a lot. And being a father is a really important thing to me, and it's an important part of my identity. And so that has not changed.

So I've never vacillated on that or changed my disposition towards that. For those around me, I guess fortunately I have a social group that just says go and play. There's really no one in my life that tries to claw me back. There's no Velcro. It's just all encouraging. And so that I guess I feel very fortunate that everyone around me. And they're willing to take the risks. I mean, this is, when I sat down for 5MEO, my partner Kate, like she's got a ton of risk.

Like, what if it goes poorly? What if I change my perspective? What if something bad happens? Well, one could make an argument that taking that degree of risk where something could have gone wrong, the people around you are enabling versus being supportive, right? That's right. That's right.

I mean, that's a consequence. But let's shift topics to other modalities for longevity. Yeah. What else is on the horizon? So you've had this profound set of experiences with psychedelics. you've documented in a very extraordinary and exquisite fashion, all of the other things that you've been doing at the interventions, other other things that are on the horizon,

that you're either excited about or that you're considering yourself. Yeah, I mean, two of the ones that we've spoken about, cell therapy and gene therapy. Yeah. Yeah. They're all in the pipeline. So they're not ready yet. We've knocked out all the stuff you can do today.

Like we've gone through it all, done it all. The next-gen therapies are just not there yet. So we're looking at mitochondrial rejuvenation. I think that's incredible. I think mitochondrial augmentation therapy, and there was a paper I saw where in order to get the mitochondria in the cell, they coated the mitochondria in effectively a red blood cell envelope, which made it more transportable into cells and less attacked by the immune system. Yeah, exactly. Which is incredible. And I'm a big, big, big believer in this course of therapy.

I mean, it's going to be a whole therapeutic modality that no one has even recognized. I agree. We have our first mitochondrial therapy lined up. How are you going to do it? You're like 99.9%. You need someone who's like 48.7% to try the mitochondrial. I agree with you. Particularly like, you know, I think they tried it in Parkinson's patients.

Yeah. Alzheimer's patients. That's where you can really see profound shifts in, in certain metrics. For you, it's like 99.9 to what? Like, yeah. I have the mitochondria, you know, of a 48 year old. Right. So like, what if I, what if I? Yes. You could go to your siblings child because the mitochondria has passed maternally. Yeah. So it's in the, it's in the egg cell. Yeah. So it's the mother's mitochondria. So if you go down in the mother's line maternally, if you have a sister who has a kid,

they're going to have very young mitochondria. You can take a little blood sample and then grow their mitochondria extensively and use that as a biological match to you. This is a perfect extension. I've had a blood boy as a son. So now I'm just going to go to the extended family and be like, guys, it's a family project. Yeah, family project.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, that one's super interesting. We also have one that we're doing, I'm now building. Are you going to do your own mitochondrial transplantation? You're going to build a bioreactor or you're working with one of the third parties.

Yeah, a third company, yeah. So I'll do a blood draw in the next week or two. They'll spin up. They'll do it. Yeah, I'll do it. Okay. So you're going to get your mitochondria, which have some, you know,

the problem with mitochondria, as you know, is mitochondrial DNA degradation over time, right? It accelerates for certain people. But that way, if you go back to a young person, you have young mitochondria. Then you're going to multiply yours out. Yes. And probably select a little bit or for a healthier ones?

Yeah, right, okay. And then put it back in. It's very, I mean, exploratively, like, we don't know. We're one of the first. They're in phase two now. Do you sprint? Yeah, I do. So you could probably score, if you did it intramuscular, like mitochondrial therapy,

you could sprint to see your score. That's a great idea. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that would be a great way to measure it from a rather than just a basic biomarker perspective. Yeah. It'd be really interesting to see. Yeah.

Sprinting is one of the most underappreciated longevity therapies. Yeah. I don't do it. Oh, man. I've got the, um, the age of a 70, four-year-old, roughly. Probably. I am definitely not keeping track with you. Would you consider, or have you looked at any plasmids where you take a gene as DNA put

in your body and then that gene makes a protein in your body that does something? Like the one we were looking out in the Foxhole 3 expression. Yeah, exactly. So the mesocomal stem cells packaged up with the Foxo 3 delivery, that showed that over 50% of tissues getting that rejuvenation. It's unbelievable. It's like the best demonstration in the entire world. That's perfect for tissue regeneration.

Like as a particular application said, tissue regeneration, using that sort of system, seems like a no-brainer. It's safe, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, yes, I reached out to that Chinese professor. I'm really interested in seeing it replicating. I would love...

You reached out to the Chinese professor? Yeah. It's awesome. Yeah. We sent that paper back in the way. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. So...

Did you respond? Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Good. So we... I'd love to do that. I'd love to actually build it ourselves.

Yeah. But that's like a two-year project. So AI can help. That's true. Yeah. Actually, that's true. AI as a project manager for these sorts of programs is... You know, that's true.

We spoke about this six months ago. Yeah, things are so different. So different now, six months later in terms of stand that up. So that was cool. So I think that's a good option. But also I'm doing Brian Johnson organoids. So we took my IPSEs. We now have them...

In youth pluripotent stem cells. Exactly. So you took yourself, turn them into stem cells. Yep. Yeah. So now we're doing in dish. So now we have like a Brian Johnson heart, liver, lungs. and now we're going to try molecules on me and in dish.

So let me just walk the audience through this. So you take cells off of your skin or something. Blood. Blood. And then you put these Yamanaka factor proteins on those cells, causes those cells to become stem cells, which means they can then turn into any other cell. Yeah.

And then you put other proteins on them to turn them into a heart cell or a eye cell or what have you. And now you've got a store of these tissue-specific Brian Johnson cells. Yes. That you then used for... Like you can say, okay, what if you get Brian Johnson blank, you know, drug? What happens?

Is it good? Is it bad? What are the side effects? In the petri dish? You put the drug in there. Exactly. See what happens. Yeah.

Okay. You can simulate all these experiments. So now you get the advantage of time of acceleration of like what to take why, what dose. That's awesome. What combinatorial things to consider. Yeah. And so we have the organoid stood up. We haven't done our first takes yet.

Yeah. So that's interesting because now I have to do this old school methodology. Like put it in my body. Wait to see what happens. Is it good? Is it bad? add what, you know, how does it affect everything else? Yeah, totally.

That's a good one. But, I mean, I don't know. We'll see it. It's cool in concept. I mean, TBD if it actually works. So we'll see. Have you tracked any of the alternatives to Yamanaka factors, the factor discovery work that's going on?

And do you think there's anything worth testing at this stage? Yeah. I'm an investor, new limit. So I've talked to them about the where they're at. Blake and Brian's company. They've done, I mean, they've made remarkable progress. Yeah. They figured out how to computationally solve the,

discovery process. And so they're much faster than they initially thought. And so that's very encouraging. You know, the big challenge with the Yama Anaka factors is always dosing. If you overdose a cell, a one cell, that cell can become a cancer cell and take off as a tumor. Yeah. So the sensitivity that you need to have to get the right number of the factors, which is a protein into the cell, needs to be perfectly tuned. So I have a theory that this will end up being solved by cellular switches that will end up putting machinery into the cellular. the cells that can turn on or off the protein synthesis at the right dosing based on the measurement of gene expression in the cell.

That's my theory on where this will end up. That makes a lot of sense. Any other control mechanism will be inadequate. That feedback loop just all you need is one error and you're in trouble. But it is it is the most profound, I think, technology that humanity is dealing with today besides AI. We're not quite there with fusion, which I would argue is probably a distant third, but it is very powerful.

I agree. What's possible? In the future, like I think we'll look back and we'll see GLP, as the first big drop. Yeah. Like what? I can just inject myself and like it solves hunger. Totally.

Yeah. And then the second will probably be something like New Limit or one of these phoxone based foxel3 therapies where it will show real life like dramatic changes. Yeah. Totally. And then humanity will shift as like longevity being a vision of sci-fi, you know, rich people pursuit to like something that is truly jamming. Go back to like the conversation on on the temptation towards socialism.

right? Like if you can feel robust in your ability to pursue life and be healthy and vibrant and in control, I think these things that have dramatic changes to society, not just in health, but like, well, any form of abundance, whether it's abundance in food, in energy, in housing, in mobility, in lifespan, the more abundance people get the happier they are. Yes. And the more you're improving abundance in the world, the better we are going to live as a group of people together on planet Earth. Exactly. The happier we will all be with each other.

I think honestly, like a lot of the... External conflict only comes from internal unhappiness. 100%. So if you look at the general malaise of like American society, like no wonder things are shitty, right? Like you've got... 84% of people have metabolic disorder. 40% of people are obese.

Like we're just in really poor health. Nobody's sleeping. Everyone's on their phone. Totally. We have mental health issues. Like, no wonder you have the proclivity towards these kinds of outcomes. So if you could get the health and check, it changes the psychological distinction of you, your community, your country.

Like, you have much more of a can-do attitude. Like, I can take on the world and I can do hard things. But when you're not feeling well, like, it's just everything is just so much harder. Yeah, 100%. And so in light of all of these new therapeutic modalities and these new opportunities that seem to be biologically proven and have these profound effects, why continue to tinker with psychedelics? Like, are they as profound or are they a compliment?

Or like, how do you think about fitting all of this portfolio of the, things that you're looking at together. Yeah. I mean, I guess the question is, I forget on the Foxo 3 study, I don't know if they saw brain rejuvenation. Didn't see that.

Yeah. I did not see that. And I don't, I don't remember. I mean, it is a very complicated organ. Yeah, exactly.

And it's insane. It's very hard to reach. You know, you can grow muscle tissue back and you can grow skin tissue back. And it's kind of like, okay, I grew a little like, like if you grow the,

the neurons back maybe in the wrong way, like, we don't know. Yeah. Because it's never been done before. Yeah. So, understanding the consequence of neuro regeneration is like.

So I wonder like if the role in my play, like, you know, maybe Silocybin and 5MEO won't be, um, you know, meaningful for like basic functions of the body. But maybe it's the, uh, the outperformer in youthfulness of your, of your disposition towards reality. Like one thing I'm apprehensive about is, you, I'm 48. And so as you start climbing to your 50s, you do really narrow. Your ambition goes from I can do anything

to start narrowing down further and further. And I worry about losing losing a youthful disposition of a can-do attitude of anything as possible. Totally. And maybe that's the role of psychedelics, but just get a wash of like the snapback of like, I can and I can bounce. That's definitely been the case for me.

So I think they do probably play a really important role of like they're probably a set of things that for certain people that will, um, basically like, I mean, I felt like it was like 30, 40 years of psychological rejuvenation. Like, you know, it's like to transform me back to a childlike state. Yeah. That is insane. I don't get that from the sauna. Yeah. Or from eating well or from stupid. Well, like, I'm still.

Right. So it's just, just unique. Yeah. Amazing. Well, listen, I'm going to go drink alcohol and eat carbs and stay out late. I don't know. What are you going to do? I'm going to go to bed on time. Yeah, I'm going to do my wind-down routine.

Yeah, you do you. Yeah. And you let you as well. Enjoy it. I appreciate it. This has been great. Brian Johnson. Thank you.

Thanks. Yeah, that was awesome. That was great.