Are You A Charlotte? - We can’t Waithe! Lena Waithe joins the conversation…

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

Lena Waithe encourages rewatching Sex and the City in your 30s and 40s because it remains as relatable as ever.  The actress and producer joins Kristin for a fascinating look at the series that has stood the test of time.  She also presents a theory on Mr. Big that hits the nail on the head.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart podcast. Being able to say, I feel like crying, so I will cry. Today, I'm a little depressed. May is Mental Health Awareness Month and deeply well is a sanctuary for your healing. I'm Debbie Brown, healer, wellbeing expert, teacher, and fellow seeker. And each week we explore what it means to become whole through soul expanding conversations and practices. Each week, we explore what it means to become whole through sole expanding conversations and practices.

Today, wow, I feel really powerful and ready to serve and use my skills. And it's like, that's the heart of what it is to be an authentic woman. To hear this and more ways to prioritize your piece, listen to Deeply Well from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T, connecting changes everything. I want you to ask yourself right now, how am I actually doing? Because it's a question that we rarely ask ourselves. All of May is actually Mental Health Awareness Month, and on the psychology of your 20s, we are taking a vulnerable look at why mental health is so hard to talk about. Prepare for our conversations to go deep.

I spent the majority of my teenage years and my 20s just feeling absolutely terrified. So this mental health awareness month, open the free iHeartRadio app, search the psychology of your 20s and listen now. Hi, I'm Radhida Vlukya and I am the host of a Really Good Cry podcast. I had the opportunity to talk to Davy Brown with women, any kind of thing where there might be this underlying edge of self-sacrifice as martyrdom. If you're never feeling, you're telling yourself a story and you're actually avoiding what you should be doing.

You got to get in, you got to get your hands dirty. Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why is a soap opera western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan

Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes, but there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad.

Listen to Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, there and it's bad. I have an incredible friend on, the one and only, Lena Waithe, who is an incredible actress, producer, and screenwriter, and director. She created a Showtime show called The Shy, which is now in its seventh season, which is amazing. She wrote and produced Queen and Slim, the film, and when I first really, really became aware of her, as most people, is when she starred in Master of None. She became the first African-American woman

to win the Prime Time Emmy Award for Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series. And she's also in that series, and it's so incredible. It's about her own coming out story. I love her so much, and she knows so much about television. I think you guys are really gonna enjoy this. Alina Waite, yay, yay, yay! Thank you for joining us.

Thank you for having me. I've been dying to have you on. I've been dying to come on. I texted Lena right away. Yeah. When we got this podcast. You did. Saying you will have to be on, please, please, please.

And I said yes. You did, thank God. Just say when. Thank God. I'm so honored to be here. I am honored to have you, and I'm honored to have you for many reasons. Number one, I just like to see you.

I love to see you. Number two, to have you for many reasons. Number one, I just like to see you. I love to see you. Number two, Lena, in case you guys don't know, is a multi-hyphenate. I'm gonna tell you your whole resume later when you're not in front of me. But the thing that's important is that her knowledge of film and television is so expansive and deep. And this is partly why I love her.

Like when we first started and just like that, you left me the sweetest, sweetest voicemail. I don't know what panicky thing I had sent to you or whatever, but you're just very grounding. Your knowledge is very grounding in terms of what has happened before, how things develop in our culture, on television, in film, what it means, and as you just said to me when you sat down, we were talking about this episode,

you said, I think television has a timestamp. Yes. Tell me more, what do you mean exactly? Well, I think sometimes when people look at TV from say 10 years ago or even 20, it can feel in moments uncomfortable or icky even because you're thinking, oh, well, no one would make that joke today, or you couldn't do that now.

And what's interesting about that is what I believe art is, it's a time capsule, really, and it's a timestamp of where we were at that time and what was happening in the world then. And so I think of, even though yes, these are fictitious characters, in a way, this is sort of giving us a sense of what New York was at that time,

what it was for women at that time, what the limits were at that moment, and what could and couldn't be talked about, and what barriers you guys were pushing up against. And so, I'm really grateful that I got to grow up with it. I was like, I was a teenager when it first came on. And so I was learning so much about what it meant to be an adult friend by watching you all. And I think I was more interested in that than the

love stories per se. But the love stories were there as well. We told you about something about self-love and how you see yourself. But watching it now as a 40-year-old person, revisiting the episode. For a lot of us who are my age, we feel a little confronted by now, Sex and the City, because we are now the ages that you guys were then at that time. And we're seeing ourselves play out some of these storylines. And that I think is saying that the show, you may point certain things out and say, oh, you can't make that joke now, but I do think the show is aging well.

Thank you. Because the fact that I can see myself in it as I get older and understand things better. Right. It's work that I've gotten to grow up with and I still get to sit with now. But now it's not, a lot of us are saying it's not just fun on the background now.

Now it's, okay, I'm in this stage right now. Or I'm going through a divorce. Or I'm about to get married. Or I'm about to have my first baby. And so now it's as if you guys are still there. I think of art as an inheritance. And so we have inherited this, this work. And that's why I think within Just Like That

is a continuation of the life of the work. And so when I go back and revisit in Just Like That, I will be, as I get older, I will then start to understand these stories even more in due time. I love that, thank you. Yes. That's part of the reason I wanted to do the podcast

is because I do feel also for myself. Right, you're there. Right, I was there, but also I was the age I was to do the podcast is because I do feel also for myself. Right, you're there. Right, I was there, but also I was the age I was when we started, right? And now I'm the age I am now, and I have such a different perspective, and as I was telling you when you sat down, I had never really rewatched,

because when they would come out in the beginning, we would be so excited to see them, because obviously we were kind of doing this fresh, totally different thing, and we were always like a little scared also, you know, about whatever we had done. As you know, because you act as well, it's like scary. You don't know how it's gonna turn out.

No. And you guys are taking a lot of risks. A lot of risks. We still are. Like wait till you see the first episode of Injustice like that. I could not. Wait, I'm ready, okay? I'm ready. I know, I'm ready too.

But I was like, oh my God, I forgot about that. But that's how we used to feel too, like, you know, what do we say, what do we do, how's it gonna seem, are people gonna be just, in the beginning we thought people would just be outraged. You know, because there was nothing else like it. You know, and we weren't out there talking about sex freely as women at the time, in 1997 when we filmed the pilot,

right, it was a different time, right? So then, over time, the first time that they syndicated the show, they edited it. Do you remember this? It was on E. Of course I was actually thinking about that. Right. And so they took a lot of stuff out. And if you'd be walking by a TV and a V on, I'd be like, ah!

It just seemed so weird to me. Like, to first of all have it be out in a mass way, right? We never expected that. Sure. And then to have it kind of altered, which was weird. So like whole storylines would be gone. And then also I felt like, well, I just don't want to relive it and like live in the past.

Sure, that's true. Right? Because the past and future don't exist. Right, exactly. There's only the now. But then when it came on Netflix and all these younger people started discovering it. Absolutely.

And I think because we're still together working. So it's not that thing where it hurts you to look at it, you know, because we're still really very vibrantly together. Exactly. And, you know, love what we're doing still. So then I felt like I so want to see what storylines still resonate, what still is true, what isn't true, you know, what culturally, where are we at?

Because so many things have changed and then certain things not changed at all. Super fascinating. Absolutely, I mean, well, I remember when it did come to E and I remember, because obviously I watched it on HBO and loved it, I used to watch it with my mom, which is like crazy, you know. But I think when it came to E,

I think some people were kind of nervous about how was this going to translate? Because the whole thing about it is that it's HBO, it's premium, it's different. But I think what was happening was it had become such a cultural point in our society that I think it was actually really smart for E to grab it, obviously, for a lot of reasons. Because then it became this sort of thing where anyone could have access to it.

And the truth is, because Sex and the City is such a premium type of entertainment, it was nice for people to have access to it. And I think that was cool. And I think now when it came to Netflix, because now it's everywhere, it's exactly as it was, they aren't taking things out. Which is crazy to think about. But now it's happening in a way where like when somebody gets sick or you're chilling at home

Whatever now you can just have it on but you're not it doesn't feel mindless though It's sort of it's almost this new rebirth and if you think about it how it aired in its original then it goes to eat Now it's on Netflix What it's telling you is this is the kind of thing every television writer, creator, person wants to make. Something that can live in different mediums. You know, it can be on a streamer, it can be on a basic cable. You can go to HBO Max still, I think, if you want to find it.

And obviously still find the latest. It means that there is a desire for it. There is something about these characters, something about dating, something about friendship, something about trying to balance career and family. These are just universal things, you know? And look, you deal with the race element, yeah, it's like for women, but at the end of the day,

it's like, it's something very universal about it. Very universal. And that was cool as well. Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, we live in a white leaning society. We live in a patriarchal society. We live in a capitalist society Those are just facts right and when you accept that there's a level of okay

This is what's happening But what I do think within just like that does is where you guys have brought Black women to the table now and so but what you kind of find is that there's cultural differences But not when it comes to love and balance and trying to raise kids and you keep a husband and they have a sense of self right and so what that also reminds us is we have more in common than we think and to love and balance and trying to raise kids and keep a husband and have a sense of self. And so what that also reminds us is we have more in common than we think. Absolutely.

And, but what's interesting about these characters is a black woman could say, I relate to Charlotte. Of course. You know what I'm saying? A black woman could say, I relate to Carrie. An Asian woman could say, I'm a Samantha in my crew. Because it's really more about these characters sort of types.

And also, I mean, there are people that break down sex in the city in much deeper ways than I do but there are people that say they represent they they make up one woman. I know. Sarah Jessica says this. Yeah okay, hello, hello. She knows. I did push back though Lena. I did push back. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes.

He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community. She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing. No. How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done? You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future. This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception,

lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yo, Kebabs fans, it's your boy, Bom Han, and I'm bringing you something epic. or wherever you get your podcasts. From producers and choreographers to idols and trainees, we're bringing you the real stories behind the music that you love. And yeah, we're keeping it 100, discussing everything from comebacks and concepts to the mental health side of the business. Because K-pop isn't just a genre.

It's a whole world, and we're exploring every corner of it. And here's the best part. Fans get to call in, drop opinions, and even join us live at events. You never know where we might pop up next. So listen to the K Factor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This isn't just a podcast, it's a movement.

Are you ready? Let's go. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck. This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser-known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and best-selling author and meat-eater founder Stephen Rinella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here and I'll say it seems like the Ice Age people that were here didn't have a real

affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time.

Have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops call this Taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley, comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company

dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st, and episodes 4, 5, and 6 on June 4th. Add free at Lava two and three on May 21st and episodes four, five and six on June 4th. Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple podcasts. The number one hit true crime podcast, The Girlfriends is back with something new, The

Girlfriends Spotlight. Our first two series introduce you to an incredible gang of women who teamed up to fight injustice, showing just how powerful sisterly solidarity can be. And we're keeping this mission alive with the Girlfriend Spotlight. Each week, a different woman sits down with me, Anna Sinfield, to share their incredible story of triumph over adversity. Like Tracy, who survived a terrifying attack. I remember that feeling of, okay, this is how I die. And turned that darkness into the most incredible journey. I want to take over the world

and just leave this place better than I found it. Which took her all the way to Paris for the Paralympic Games. Oh my gosh, this is amazing. So come and join our girl gang. Listen to The Girlfriend Spotlight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It also depends on where you are in your life.

Definitely. Because sometimes you're in the Charlotte era, where you're like, I really want to be married, I want to have a kid. Right. And other times you're in the Samantha era, where you're like, I'm cool here, I want to do this. And rightly so. Yes, exactly.

So I think what's also interesting about this show is as you grow, and there's that whole argument online is that everybody says What Miranda was right, you know, we were kind of we're almost taught by society to think Oh Miranda is so uptight and she's so cold and she doesn't she's not as you know Frolicky as the other girls. Yeah, and but then you kind of grow you kind of realize in your life Oh, she's a person with a lot of discernment She doesn't trust easily She's not as like warm and cuddly and I think that's because the world especially a corporate world where she lives in you don't really

Get to be that you know I'm saying also Charlotte is a person who was in the art world and she's a curator and all these different things So I think you get to be a little bit more at leaning to your feminine in a way that maybe other people can with Samantha Working in PR you get to be a little bit more leaning to your feminine in a way that maybe other people can't. And with Samantha working in PR, you have to be tough, but there's also a level of using her feminine wiles to get what she wants. And Carrie's a writer, so she has to live in order to do her job.

If she's not dating and having sex, what's her column gonna be about? Oh yeah, I forget that. Yeah, so there's just so many things about it. And also it's so interesting because of course the press or critics, you look at old reviews, they say, oh, it's gay men writing these women. Oh, I hate that.

I hate that so much. Or it's man-hating or they have all this sex or where they got this money from. Look, at the end of the day, what the show is actually doing is confronting all of us about what it means to be a woman in the world. And I really think to me what's so fascinating about the show really covers is motherhood.

You know, and about, you know, have you gotten an abortion? Did you think about getting one? Yes. I love the Shoulda Coulda Woulda is one of my favorite episodes. Oh, it's a good one. We're not here to talk about that one. It's fine. But, you know, but yeah, just kind of, I know, come back.

But it just sort of covers, and that's how I learned television writing really from watching Sex and the City and listening to Michael Patrick King's commentary is about making sure you have everyone's opinion in the room. And those writers were so great at making sure whatever the topic was, all four of you, none of you agreed. And I think that was, and it was,

that's what makes the scene, those obviously those iconic lunch, dinner scenes so amazing because you all are going to have a different opinion. You know, I knew what I love in the episode. I'm here to talk about Miranda. Actually, she has to leave the table. Oh my God. I know. I'd forgotten about this. She leaves the table because she's like, I'm tired of talking about men.

I know, which I think Michael Patrick, because Michael Patrick wrote this episode. It's called, Take Me Out to the Ball Game. I leave out all the details. No, it's all good. Where Carrie was season two opener. Where Carrie is mourning her relationship. Exactly.

Mourning her relationship, living in that horrible fear that you're going to run in to your ex. Somewhere in the world. Which of course happens, especially in New York. You're out there on those streets. You are. And I'm of course Charlotte saying you have to be sad and be inside and go through, which I actually agree.

I kind of agree, I agree with Charlotte there. I agree with myself as well. I agree with my character. And Miranda's like no. Which I don't always, I know. Miranda's like no. But Miranda's like don't feel those feelings. Just, you're fine.

She's on a roll in this one. You gotta go, let's stop talking about it. And the truth is, when I was watching, and I was like oh my God, that's our lives right now. Like somebody's going through a separation and some of us are saying girl, you gotta move on. And others are saying, you need to mourn. And as I was watching that, I was like, oh Jesus,

this is my life being reflected back. But I think that we're both right. In some ways I do believe in, maybe I'm their friend saying, I was in a voicemail, give yourself grace, be gentle with yourself, take your time, it's okay. But then others are saying, girl, it's time, you got to move on and let it go. Because this is one thing Charlotte talks about,

is there a limit? Because I do think, I do think with myself certainly, and I haven't been through a breakup in a while, thank God. But you know, there comes a time where it maybe goes too long. You're laying on that couch too long. True, I mean, well I think that's the interesting thing is I think, well, I also believe everything is temporary. Good feelings as well as bad.

And so if you're feeling sad for a really long time or it feels like, hey, what's going on? Then, I mean, if Elena character is there, I'm saying, then it might be a time to talk to a therapist. For sure. And kind of get to the root of what's going on. Because now this person is more a representation of something. You've projected onto this relationship in some deeper way.

This is triggering something. You've got to get to the root of it. Definitely. And looking at it in retrospect, because we ultimately know what happens with Carrie and Big, the question then becomes, if you can't get over someone, are you actually meant to get over them? Is there something going on? Will that person come back?

Or, you know, there's a season, you know? It's like, maybe it's time for that person to go away and you come back. But I think also the writing is just so beautiful because she does bump into big, of course. She looks great, she's with the hot guy, you know? And he, of course, is a little burned by it. And it's season two, so.

Right, we got a long way to go. Yeah, and it's setting something up, which I think, you know, Sex and City does a beautiful job of creating these romances that can come and go, which I also learned about in terms of relationships. They can blossom for a season, and then they can close, and they can come back. I mean, that happens with your character as well. You have gentlemen that come and go, and then they find their way back can come back. I mean, that happens with your character as well. You have gentlemen that come and go and then they find their way back into your life.

That's true, and that is true too, I think, with in the beginning, and again, I wasn't really thinking very objectively when we were doing it. Whatever they wrote, I was like, let's try to make this work. You know, that was my thing, right? Like, I never examined it very hard, right?

So when I'm looking back on it, sometimes I'm like, I know Charlotte believes in love, but like, why was she so into Big? Because Big really puts Carrie through it, you know? True. Right? But I was always like, yay, Big, you know what I mean? That's interesting.

And I never thought about it, but I also think it's because I'm my age now, versus my age then, do you know what I mean? Well, it's interesting because I think she believes in them because for Carrie, she's thinking like, this is the one. I think for sure she's thinking that because Carrie is thinking that. Right, and she wants Carrie to have what she wants

and she wants the guy that she's going for. And I think at the time, I don't know if we had the emotional intelligence to say, well, he's not really committing, or like what's going on, or what should we do? And also he was, all the things that they talk about now, like bread crumbing, the things that people talk about online, he does all that.

Gaslighting, all that stuff. We never thought those things in the 90s. No, you didn't. No, we didn't. But it's so interesting because I was around, like, you know, my mom or her friends, they would say, I haven't missed her big, I haven't missed her big.

And so I think everybody kind of has one. And I think, but now what Mr. Big represents is someone who is just unattainable. Definitely. And someone you kind of can't have. And that's why I think, you know, within Just Like That, people get so in their feelings, because in a way, Sex and the City is like the sort of fairy tale for adult women.

True. And so, well, the movie then also kind of gave us, it continues the chapter where, oh, it was a mess up, and they got married, and then the second movie, okay, she cheated on him. Okay, now, and just like that, okay, he's gone. It sort of takes you through all these stages of a relationship, you know?

And then, I mean, not to get too deep, but you know, when his character dies, in a way it's that part of that little girl of hers also died. Like she doesn't need to chase a Prince Charming anymore. That's so true. And I feel like she really embodies that so beautifully. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast, Betrayal.

Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community. She said you left bruises, pulled her hair,

that type of thing. No. How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done? He said you left bruises, pulled their hair, that type of thing. No. How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done? You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future. This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything

they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yo, K-pop fans. It's your boy, BOMHAN, and I'm bringing you something epic. Introducing the K Factor, the podcast that takes you straight into the heart of K-pop. We're talking music reviews, exclusive interviews, and deep dives into the industry like never before. From producers and choreographers to idols and trainees, we're bringing you

the real stories behind the music that you love. And yeah, we're keeping it a hundred, discussing everything from comebacks and concepts to the mental health side of the business, because K-pop isn't just a genre, it's a whole world. And we're exploring every corner of it. And here's the best part, fans get to call in, drop opinions, and even join us live at events. You never know where we might pop up next. So listen to the K-Factor on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This isn't just a podcast. It's a movement. Are you ready? Let's go. Let's go. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck.

This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and bestselling author and meat eater founder, Stephen Rinella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here and I'll say it seems like the Ice Age people that were here didn't have a real

affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this Taser the revolution.

But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season One, Taser Inc. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes one, two and three on May 21st and episodes four, five and six on June 4th.

Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. The number one hit true crime podcast, The Girlfriends is back with something new, The Girlfriends Spotlight. Our first two series introduce you to an incredible gang of women who teamed up to fight injustice, showing just how powerful sisterly solidarity can be. We're keeping this mission alive with the Girlfriend Spotlight. Each week, a different woman sits down with me, Anna Sinfield, to share their incredible story of triumph over adversity, like June, who founded an all-female rock band in the 1960s. I might as well have said we're going to walk on the moon. But she sure showed them who's boss and toured the world. They would just be gobsmacked

and they would rush up after the set and say not bad for chicks. So come and join our girl gang. Listen to The Girlfriend Spotlight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, people complain about Carrie online, which I find weird. I don't know who could, why would anyone complain about Carrie? I know, Lena, I know. What? What's the issue? People complain about Carrie. They think she's self-centered, I think. Well, aren't we all?

I mean, yes. My feeling is this, and you as a writer are going to have some insight into this. My feeling is that partly, I mean, if she was perfect, it wouldn't have been interesting. Exactly. No, she has to be flawed. Right? I don't, what I was talking about some of the other day, we were getting really deep about Sex and the City, I thought I was coming on this. They never really dealt with Carrie's daddy issues. This is a good point.

They glance at it with the Vogue episode. Yes. You know, when you see the photo, because there is the older gentleman who's helping her. Ron Rifkin, yeah. Yes, and who thinks that there's something between them and she for her, it's not. It's more, oh, this is a paternal figure.

Even though Mr. Big is older than her, it's enough of an age difference where it's sort of like, you know, Spencer Tracy type energy. But I think, you know, I think as I learn and grow and do read books and go to therapy, what you realize is how you show up in your romantic relationships is a direct reflection of how you were loved by your parents.

So true. What you didn't get from your parents, you try to get from your love. Yeah. And so you have to kind of look at your parents and ask, what was I missing? What was I getting from you? Because what she says is very clear in the episode

is that her dad had abandoned her and her mother. He was gone. And so she, in a way, is looking for a man to validate, to accept, to be present. And... Oh, Lena, oh my God. You are solving these questions for me. Yes, it's so true.

I had not thought about this clearly. I mean, it's literally something... I just had this conversation with someone. Wow. They were like, what are they ever going to carry his dad's stuff? I don't really know if they talked too much about her mother. No, we didn't because Michael Patrick. But that's on purpose.

Right. He wanted them to exist outside of their parents. Right, and he didn't, he felt like when people go to New York City, no one ever talks about their background. You know, you're just there. True. Like present in the moment, creating whatever you're trying to create, right?

Yeah, absolutely. You're your own person. Right, and he had reminded me at one point that there had been a scene that they ended up not using where she had in her bedside drawer a little picture of her father and she had looked at the picture and closed the drawer and they ended up cutting it.

From which episode, the Vogue episode? Early on, no, I think first season, I wanna say. I know, I had totally forgotten about this. Well, yeah, it's never explained. Well, I do remember him saying something about that, like saying, I didn't want to go into the whole parents stuff, which I get, because with TV in the 90s, that was always an episode.

It was like, here come the parents, you gotta clean up, and who am I dating, and da da da da da. And so give you insight more into the characters. And so what was great about it, which obviously it clearly worked, because we see you all as individuals, and now it's about like what you're starting your own dynasties in a way. It's about like, who am I going to marry?

What kid am I going to have? But as we as just people out here watching it, what I found, who I am in relationship is a direct reflection of what I grew up witnessing. Or didn't have. Or what I missed. And I'm telling you, it's like the dad conversation is like who was Mr. Bradshaw? Because that's more important than who was Mr. Big.

Definitely, that's so interesting. And it's also interesting because people talk about the Aidan versus Big. Obviously they're so, so different. And it is interesting that she still, I mean when I talked to Sarah, Sarah was on the podcast and I said, you know, what would you like to share with us insight into this? And she also, no matter what she says, can't separate, right? She has played Carrie for 30 years, right? Of course.

You know, it's crazy, it's crazy. Yeah, 29, whatever it is. Wow. But she explained Big in a super interesting way that I never thought about. Of course, because she's so smart. Right, and I was like, no, I'm trying to ask you about Carrie. Like, let's talk about Carrie. Why does Carrie want Mr. Big? Do you know what I mean?

Because she said so many interesting things that I would never have thought of. And also, this is what I love about talking to people, is that everyone has their own, first of all, experience, and second of all, thoughts and memories, and knitting it all together is super fascinating. But what she, the thing I took away from her thoughts about Carrie and Big was that in the initial pilot,

do you remember, I really hated the pilot previous to rewatching it. Oh my gosh. I know, I'm very hard on myself. Pilots are hard, pilots are hard. You made so many. I mean, have you ever heard my theory of pilots? My theory of pilots is this,

a pilot needs to be like 75% good, but not 100% good. Because you have to have the elements there, but you don't want it to come together too good, because if it comes together too good, then when the show goes, it might, it might, it might, vroom. That's kind of true.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it needs to have something, it needs to be rough around the edges a little bit still. Right, but it's gotta have that, zh, zh, zh, zh, zh, zh, that energy, the thing, that's kind of intangible, but not be all the way there. No, that's true. Right? Yeah. And that's how I feel like our pilot was. Fair, fair's that energy. The thing that's kind of intangible, but not be all the way there. No, that's true.

Right? And that's how I feel like our pilot was. Fair, fair. Thank you. But I think the one scene in our pilot, and when I went back and watched it, it was way better than I remember. Okay.

Because I'm hard on myself and my memory, whatever. Sure. But you know the final scene where he drives her, they keep running into each other, and he drives her in that crazy old-fashioned town car, and she gets out, and she says to him, or whoever says, have you ever been in love? And he says, absolutely.

And the lights are all glistening in the background. She basically said that in that moment, the die was cast. That's good. Because when I was trying to get her to explain, why'd you put up with all the stuff you carry? Yes, yes, not Sarah, yeah. She was just basically saying that the die was cast. And that she, it wasn't necessarily something

that was thought out, it just happened. Yeah, I get that. Super interesting. I think that's fair. I get that too. But also, I think, because I hear what you're saying, it's an iconic last scene, and it's the beginning of this journey that we had no idea would last, like you said, almost 30 years. But I think it's also that Casablanca moment.

It's that moment of us falling in love with them. And this sort of like push and pull. And I think what you learn about TV couples is that they can never just be happy. Otherwise you don't have a show. Totally. You know, that's why Big had to die. Totally, I know.

Because they had the house, they had the thing, they figured it out, and now once you learn the lesson, you go. That's right. And so now it's a new why Big had to die. Totally, I know. Because they had the house, they had the thing, they figured it out, and now once you learn the lesson, you go. That's right. And so now it's a new lesson for her to learn. That's exactly right. The other thing I think about Carrie, in terms of people criticizing her, is that because she is the writer and because she is driving everything and you're hearing her thoughts,

of course she's going to seem self-centered. You're hearing her thoughts. But here's the thing. Yeah. What I love, love, love, love, love about Sex and the City is they engage the audience because she's always asking a question. That's true.

That's how every column begins. Yeah, I wonder. Yeah. Or like, you know, should you say, look, or should you do this? Or da, da, da, da, da, da. And it makes you question. She's wondering. And so now you're wondering, do I get over things quickly or do I wallow?

Like which am I? Or like do I do this or do I that? And so now what I love, what I feel we love, Carrie, and she very much is sort of, I think, a Mary Richards for her time, is that we now are on this ride with her. Now we're dating, that's what we're saying, it should be big, it should be Miss Aiden, da da da da.

And my old lesbian ass is sitting there thinking like, who do I want to be? Am I Mr. Big or am I Aiden? And I always wanted to be an Aiden. I want to be Aiden. You want to be, yeah! You know, I want to be the one that's like making furniture, breaking down the wall.

But the sucky thing is, is that a lot of us feel like if you're an Aiden type, you're probably going to get cheated on. Oh no! You know, a lot big. But then I also have Mr. Big qualities about myself. I think some people really say like, okay, I know there's a little bit of a suave energy.

I don't know, but I'm looking at both of them just like, huh, okay. They represent different things. Definitely they represent different things. Okay, let's talk about the breakup rules for a second because when you're talking about the question, that's her question of this episode. So this is also so funny to me.

So in my mind the pilot was really bad and really dark right which it is really dark. It is dark. Now I look back on it and I love that it's so dark. Yeah it's new. It's cool. It's different. I mean you can barely see us sometimes. I know. But where are we? I know but then it gets super light. I know it really does. It's like as we get more. Right, okay, the clothes get a little fancier. Most definitely, we had, Sarah Jessica told me we had $10,000 for costumes the first season. Can you believe that?

That didn't even cover the shoe budget the second season. No, I know, I know. But that was when we had to get people to lend us stuff. Jeez Louise. Yeah, that's the only way we did it in the beginning. So anyway, here we are, this is the second season, and in my mind, I also love season three, as we briefly discussed.

I really like season three in terms of where everything's just sort of gelling. Oh my god, magical. But I like season two, the season two opener, because what's interesting about it is there's an energy of you guys feel a little confident. Yes. There's a confidence in all of you.

Definitely. I think because you guys are all here for a second season. Do you feel that way when you're doing a show? Yeah, I think the actors, because sometimes, you know, if I'm the creator, I'm on the opposite side of it, the actors feel a little bit more settled. Because in the first season, you're just trying,

okay, hopefully we get picked up. Yeah. You get picked up for a second season, it means, all right, well we did last time, it worked, it worked okay, so we're not too bad. And then now you're like, okay, now we're on these journeys, and who are these people?

Who are these characters? Definitely, I feel that way. But they're like, you guys are like, it's great. It's beautiful. Right, and we have the coffee shop set. So we actually, cause like first season, you're like, where are they? And like we're in weird places along Long Island City.

Yeah, it's crazy. So we finally got the coffee shop set, which is great. And we have a scene that is a coffee shop scene, which is the one where Miranda gets up and literally says, don't talk about men. And Michael Patrick wrote this episode and I think that he was actually using criticism of the show.

Yes, all you guys do is sit around and talk about men. Yeah, I could feel that. Right? And yes, and I've done that too. When you write it, it'll kind of work. I like that. I like that when writers do it. It's like a run toward it, address it, address it.

Run toward it, definitely. I have the sweater that Cynthia's wearing in that scene in my house. Oh my gosh. Sometimes I would take Miranda clothes home because you can wear them in normal life. Oh my gosh, right. I know Miranda's like the real girl.

She's like, look, I gotta be a real person. Relatively normal as we go. Anyway, so this is the whole, we go out to the baseball, we're gonna talk about it in a second. But the big question, which I love because it does come up from Charlotte, where're gonna talk about that in a second, but the big question, which I love because it does come up from Charlotte,

where Charlotte says that to get over a breakup, it takes half the time of the relationship. What do you think? I've always heard that, and I always loved that theory. Yeah, here's the deal. I love that they're so classic about it with you. You take, they give the number of how long you were with the guy and how long to get over but I mean if

you if you set an intention for yourself where you're like okay David for my three years all right you're in a house I'm gonna give myself you know that's all I'm gonna give myself that's good um but some you know you could date somebody for like six months and it could be super intense good point and you might need a little bit longer that's a good point you know so it just all depends because some people can linger with you. Yeah. It just depends on the person.

Yeah. Some people are easier to get over than others. I think that's so true. Yeah, it's case by case. I'm not going to say more, but I think it's so true. I won't say more either. We'll both keep that, yeah.

We'll keep that. Lena, you are dropping the wisdom every which way, and we're just gonna have to come back for another episode. So you guys come back later in the week. ["Spring Day"] Being able to say, I feel like crying, so I will cry. Today, I'm a little depressed. May is Mental Health Awareness Month,

and Deeply Well is a sanctuary for your healing. I'm Debbie Brown, healer, wellbeing expert, teacher, and fellow seeker. And each week, we explore what it means to become whole through soul-expanding conversations and practices. Today, wow, I feel really powerful and ready to serve and use my skills. And it's like, that's the heart of what it is to be an authentic woman. To hear this and more ways to prioritize your piece, listen to Deeply Well from the Black Effect Podcast Network

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T, connecting changes everything. Hi, I'm Radhita Vlukya, and I am the host of A Really Good Cry podcast. And I had the opportunity to talk to Davy Brown. With women, any kind of thing where there might be this underlying edge of self-sacrifice as martyrdom, if you're never filling, you're telling yourself a story and you're actually

avoiding what you should be doing. You got to get in, you got to get your hands dirty. Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want you to ask yourself right now, how am I actually doing? Because it's a question that we rarely ask ourselves. All of May is actually Mental Health Awareness Month and on the psychology of your twenties, we are taking a vulnerable look at why mental health is so hard to talk about.

Prepare for our conversations to go deep. I spent the majority of my teenage years and my 20s just feeling absolutely terrified. So this Mental Health Awareness Month, open the free iHeartRadio app, search the psychology of your 20s and listen now. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun?

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Why is a soap opera western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater podcast network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.

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