Fugazi with Brandon Stosuy
00:00What's with this band anyway?I don't get it. Can you please explain?Wait, like, Bansplain?Welcome to Bansplain.I am your host, Yasi Salek.This is a show where experts come on to explain cult bands to me and to you.Today's episode is about Fugazi.If you've never heard Fugazi and you were a patient boy,
00:56and you wait and wait and wait.And wait, you will.Here is what Fugazi sounds like.My guest today is author Brandon Stosi.He's the founder of the creative independent and the co-founder of artist management company Zone 6.Welcome to the show Brandon Stosi, the king, the legend.Thanks so much, Jossi.Thanks for having me.
01:23And I have to say that it's been cool that you invited me to do this because I kind ofrediscovered Fugazi through the process of thinking about, you know, the conversation ahead.because they're one of those bands that, you know, I listened to forever and thought about forever,but then they kind of disappear and come back.So I've been doing nothing but listening to Fugazi for a few days,and I've been jogging while listening and going so much faster than I normally was going.So you finally paused Death Heaven on your runs to switch over to Fagasy?I got to be honest.
01:55I stopped listening to Def Heaven a while ago for my runs just because I got burnt out.So I'm listening to very slow music.This is very unpunk, but I'm listening to it's.listening to destroyers kaput when I run.Oh, okay.Doesn't feel like it would make me run faster, but maybe the point isn't speed.It's endurance.Yeah, I think it's endurance and feeling good and detaching from the internet.
02:18It's meditation.I fucking hate the internet.Here we are on it, everyone listening to us.I hear you, and every week that's the gift of this show for me is that I may be in a unhealthy way.dive back into bands and spend like weeks at a time immersing myself and like reading everything and watching everything. And it's usually joyful. Like for example, right now I'm like deeply obsessed about hot chili peppers. Still, it's enduring. But I love Fugazi. I'm excited to talk to you about it. I found Fugazi at like 12 or something. Producer Dylan, watch this. We're not even.We're not in five minutes in and Nirvana is going to enter the chat because I was obsessed with Nirvana.You know, it was like 1993 or whatever.And I bought this book called Route 666, The Road to Nirvana by Gina Arnold.
03:15I mentioned it almost every episode of this show because it's where I found all the bands that I still love to this day.Because I didn't, A, I was too young, but also I was living in Torrance.And if there was a scene around that kind of music, I didn't know about it and I wasn't part of it.They talk about Fugazi in the book.And so I went out with my little allowance money.and I bought Steady Diet of Nothing, I think was the first album I bought.And I would just privately listen to Fugazi by myself.I never went to a show.
03:42Just nothing.Just being a weird kid by myself listening to Fugazi in my room.It's funny.Earlier I was talking to my friend Katie, who used to be in a band priest, so now she's doing other stuff.And I was saying to her I was about to go on a podcast about Fugazi because she's from D.C.,so I thought I would mention it.And I said to her that Fugazi were kind of my nirvana because,I'm older than you.
04:03And so I feel like in 1991, I was like 72, 73 at the time.I was like, I feel like I was the end of high school, beginning of college.Yeah.And so like in 1991, when study of diet, steady diet of nothing came out,that's like around the time that Nirvana was coming out with Nevermind and all that stuff.And everyone was really excited about Nirvana.I remember being in like this radio station, WRSU, RECR's radio meeting.They were talking about Nirvana.
04:31And I was like, yeah, I don't need this shit.Like, I've already kind of found the stuff that I'm into.And I love Fugazi.I love Jesus Lizzard.I love, like, all these kinds of things.And I was just young enough to be a jerk about it, but old enough to feel like I waslike very cool, you know, because I was probably like 18 or something like that.But it was something where in retrospect, I'm like, yeah, Nirvana was incredible and like an
04:51important band.But at that time, I was just, yeah, just at that age where I thought I knew better.And so I was more into Fugazi.I don't want to speculate, but I feel like Kurt would have agreed.read with you. You know, those were his also bands that hevenerated over his own. Okay, let's get this popping.Sure. Because there is like kind of a rich history ofother bands that the members of Fugazi were in that I think, you know,
05:17is important to understanding the context of Fugazi. Let's talk aboutwho is in Fugazi and then we can sort of chart each of them back to theirformer projects. For me, the entryway to Fugazi was Ian McKay.because I loved minor threat.And they were an important band for me,but one of those bands that I was slightly too youngto go see live and all that.I wasn't quite that hip to kind of find them,
05:44you know, at that time period.I saw Bugazzi live a million times,but minor threat, I did not.And I think Ian's whole ethos,and, you know, he co-founded Discord Records,which is a label in D.C.,where they had a really ethical approachto things keeping prices down,
06:01cutting out the middle person.They never had a manager.Like all those kinds of things.They just sort of did everything on their own.And I was really inspired by that.And there was a point in high school where my friend Moss and I had gone to like a march on Washington to support.It was sort of for affordable housing for the homeless.And we tried to find the Discord house, which was this kind of legendary house that Ian Markeye supposedly worked out of.
06:26And on the cover of the Saladay seven inch, you see them sitting on the steps.We never found it, but it was like that whole idea of us like trying to find it and trying to have like some yeah level of like connection to that was super important.So they were also straight edge and I think that's an important part of that whole time was with the idea of not drinking, not smoking, not having like promiscuous sex, all these kinds of things which really paved away within this scene and kind of ended up becoming like a ridiculous thing honestly and people kind of.you know morphed into something less interesting but at the time that also felt inspiring to me justbecause I was in high school and all people really did was drink and uh you know live a specific wayand I was like cool this is like a way to kind of step outside of that so that was really how I gotinto Fugazi was just like following the path from Ian to that but before Fugazi he had actually had a bandembrace as well that kind of hinted at maybe where Fugazi was going whereas minor threat was super like
07:28hardcore and just like screaming, you know, in fact, there's a song screaming at a wall.Very angry, very abrasive.Embrace kind of started suggesting maybe something slightly mellower and something slightlymore expansive.Yeah, like maybe a little more emotional.Emotionally emotional.And embrace often got associated with emo as well because of that, because of like this moreemotional thing.
07:58I read in my thrasher the other day.that in fact what my band along with other bands in the city was playing was emo coreshout out ofima um around the ethos of minor threat which i you know kind of did continue thatthat was carried through with fagazi where did that come from like do you have any likeunderstanding of like was it following in any tradition that existed before it or was thatjust like kind of wholly a thing that ian mackay was like i just don't want to do thisand I think it's stupid.I mean, I think that's the sense I always had of it.
08:34One thing I was thinking about while thinking about this podcast is that it's interestinggetting into a band before the internet and having them in your formative years.Like you were saying you learned about Fugazi from reading a book.And so for me, I would discover it in this really piecemeal way.And I worked in a record store.And I remember some kid came in and was like, hey, do you have any Fuggizy albums?You even know how to pronounce it.And I was, and you couldn't even, you were just sort of like, oh, Fugazi.
08:58Like, you sort of would quietly say what it was.without making him feel bad, but it was like, people just didn't have access to anything.So for, in my mind, as like a teenager, I thought that it was like Ian Mackay's thing.And who knows if that's like historically accurate?Because then there reached a point where I was no longer straighthead, so I didn't really think about it anymore.But at that moment, that's what I thought.And like, when I've interviewed Ian a few times over the years and talk to him like outsideof interview contexts.
09:23And one thing he's always said is that he just has always said no to things.Like that's been his approach.And he grew up being, you know, he was very good friends.with Henry Rollins growing up from Black Flag.And when I interviewed Henry Rollins, he was like, yeah, the main difference between Ian andI is I always say yes.And Ian always says no.And Henry's like, that's why I've been in like terrible movies and done all this
09:43ridiculous stuff.Wow.Ian has like a much different ethics where he's like, but Henry is basically like, I figurewhat the hell, why not?I'll try it and how bad could it be.And I think Ian was just much more dogmatic.And you'll see that in interviews.That's something that carried through with Fugazi too, where when the band in their full
10:00blown days at live shows, they didn't want people to mash or slam dance because part of Fugazi's thing was,you know, they were like, hey, let's mix like post hardcore and reggae and dub and all these things.And so they just saw it as like a macho, ridiculous way to kind of, you know, interact with their music.They would stop the shows and kind of talk to people, hey, you know, stop slam dancing.What are you doing here?And this whole kind of thing.So I always saw it as part of Ian's ethics.And even to this day, like when I started the creative independent, the first.
10:30The first event I did was an interview with Ian, like a public interview.And we spent so many weeks just planning it because he kept being like there's going to be no banners, right?Like you're not promoting anything.I was like, no banners.There's no sponsors.Ian McKay.No, he's really careful about it.And I appreciate it.
10:47I was like, wow, he's still like super hardcore about that.So I just always thought it was part of his personality.And the idea of like shows, if people weren't drinking, you could have all ages shows, more people could have access and made it more accessible.they kept prices down, so more people could see it.So, yeah, I think it was just part of his whole overall ethos.And I think where, as I was saying before,and it kind of got maybe into a different territorythat was less interesting,
11:13was when people just became overly dogmatic about itand, you know, started getting way too,pardon the pun, but way too hardcore about it.Yeah, they became cops.Mm-hmm, yeah.If you didn't conform to what was considered punk,then, you know, you're not punkand I'm telling everyone.
11:30What does punk mean?Punk means just fucking going out,don't give a shit about nothing and just having fun.Playing good music, man.That's all there is to it.Or like whatever the dude from Mexican rock and roll had to say about it.Or like if you did this, you're like ousted from the community where it was like wasn't the whole point that it was like inclusive of like all kinds of things.I remember thinking a long time ago when I was maybe when I was in my teens when I didn't know much history at all.
11:59like thinking that the straight edge thing was like reactionary.I mean, way pre minor threat to hippiness, like to the drug-takingness of hippies andpunks thought that was like lame.I have nothing to back that up.I don't know how that entered my brain, but it made sense to me at the time.Yeah.Yeah, I think it's probably true.Like it's sort of funny.
12:19That's like one thing I was thinking about with Fugazi and with all this stuff.I was like, man, I was so historic as a teenager.And I just kind of, you just liked this stuff.And I think that was in a way, like that's an interesting way to experience music before the internet, before Wikipedia.When you live in a town of 800 people, which is where I grew up, you would just kind of be into this stuff.And then you would kind of, oh, wow, the new records out.And you would listen to that record nonstop.Oh, wow, the other records out.
12:45Then you go see them live and feel like, wow, I'm part of a community.Everyone is so into this.But it was less like now where, you know, Stereygum has, like, their top 10 albums of, you know, top 10 reggae albums or, like, pitchworks, like, the 20 best albums.so far and everything is so ranked and everyone is such an expert on every little thing.Totally. Why don't we hear a minor threat song just to start it off? And then we'll come backand talk about how Fugazi eventually sprang from this band plus a couple of other bands.What minor threat song would you want to hear? How about straight edge? Since we were talking aboutstorytelling so much. All right. Let's do it. You are listening to a music and talk episode where full
13:27songs and talk segments live together in gorgeous harmony only on Spotify. Guess what? You can also createyour own music and talk show for free with Anchor Spotify's podcasting platform. Get started at anchor.fm slashmusic and talk. That's anchor.fm slash music and talk. Okay, that was straight edge by minor threat.So while Ian Mackay was minor threading around with his bandmates,Where were the other members of Fugazi?Well, the person who's always sort of a foil to Ian in Fugazi is a Guy.And when I was a kid, I thought his name was pronounced guy.Same.
14:16And then found out it was Ghee.And his voice is much different than Ian's.And it's sort of one thing I think that's interesting about Fugazis,is they have kind of, for bands in that zone,they don't always have like a sexiness or like a,a sex appeal or like that kind of thing andGuy definitely did and the way he would like sort of dance on stagethe way his voice works and it's begged to differ
14:38because Guy is hot.So he brought that intoFugazi had that element which a lot of bandsin their zone did not and so if you look at like minor threadyou're saying dag nasty didn't have sex appealis that way you're saying?A little sex appeal a bit of it.And there was also B theater which is a little bit sexy feel
14:55but it's like yeah minor thread is just likeyeah I like just sort of this yelling as you just heardand you know straight edge and with the instruction of gee who kind of comes in as like you know there'sthese anecdotes of oh yeah he was they were into the idea of like the flavor flave like hype man a publicenemy and the band kind of already existed and he was sort of the last one to join and he was likehey you know he wanted a way into the band and initially he started out that's what he did beforehe played guitar as well but he was just like the foil in a way and he would add this kind of extravoice to the mix, but he was in a band called Rights of Spring, which is also very often associated
15:32with emo.There's a different kind of emo than people would think of emo now, a different iteration ofemo, like less of the pop punk emo and more the way embrace would be seen as well.It's coming more from a much more like punk or hardcore background, but just having this morespace for emotion, because as you heard in the minor threat song, you know, there wasn't a lot ofspace for emotion. And minor threat did have some songs like that, you know, where theyhave the song Saladay's or like, good guys don't wear white, like a cover song where theykind of would allow a little more space for feeling, but largely it was just like barking orders,
16:12whereas Ian was kind of the drill sergeant. And Guy was kind of the, the crooner, but in thislike very interesting way, because voice is just really, really, yeah, an interesting voice.And the drummer from Rites of Spring became the drummer ofFugazi, Brendan Canty, is that right?Yeah, Brendan Canty.Who's also, I mean, the thing you'll see with Fugazi, too, is, like, the rhythm sectionis just amazing.And that's, like, a huge part of the band.
16:39So often you have, like, Ian and Gee in the front, and they're, like, the focus, butyou have Joe Lolly and Renan Canty in the back just kind of holding down these amazing rhythms.And, like, what I was saying before were, they really were inspired by, like, reggae anddub and funk and all these different kinds of things.and like, you know, Jolali sort of had this kind of joy division baseline kind of thing.So they're bringing in all these different elements where it comes from this starting point of likehardcore, just like screaming at a wall kind of thing.And then they just started allowing all this other space to kind of bring in these different sounds.
17:13Yeah.And it melded in a really cool way.There's so much going on in Fugazi that again, as like a 12-year-old, I certainly didn'tunderstand or contextualize.I just liked it.And I later realized as like an adult that like, my,immediate attraction to music tends to be to bass lines.It makes sense for me why I loved Fugazi, because, like, they really do lead a lot of the time
17:35with, like, what you're saying, that sort of swinging baseline.Totally, yeah.This is not that different of ingredients, but a different meal was made as Red Hot Chili peppers.Well, I mean, they're both kind of considered early days anyways, punk funk, right?And it was like, they kind of were tapping into very similar.inspirations, you know, like very famously. Red Hot Jali Berbers talks about seeingblack flag and, you know, being inspired by that hardcore music of L.A. And obviously,fully, was in fear. And but then they loved reggae and they loved funk and they have George
18:15Clinton. It's just like, what a different fucking outcome. I think, I think you're right. And I thinkpart of what it is is like, Fugazi was always interesting where they really stuck to this like specificethics. Again, like it comes back to that where like, you know, they weren't into merch. And soRight.People made these shirts that would say this is not a Fugazi shirt,which I actually owned as a child, you know, like as a teen.And the idea that when they played shows, they didn't have set lists.They were just kind of like, they had the first song they were going to play.
18:43Then they would kind of just like figure it out as they went along.As we sang before, like not into mashing, kind of with this interaction with the audience.It was very like, no shirts.They did wear shirts.Sometimes.They took them off to them.There's another, there's another parallel.One of my favorite videos of all times, like this old video of Fugazi performing waiting room in this space where it's just so crowded and everyone's just dancing and just going for it.
19:09And when I was seeing them, I'd see them at Maxwell's most often in New Jersey, having grown up on the East Coast.But there was always that feeling of like the entire room moving as one.And I think that was interesting too, where it was like, whereas Moshing was always like you're battling each other.Right.And that's like one person at a time.this was like this sort of this whole feeling of everyone doing something at once, which I appreciate it.Yeah, because the music is, again, like having listened back for the last couple of days,like, it's not aggressive in the way that I'm thinking that music that inspires moshing is aggressive.
19:43It is more like cohesive and unified and like lends itself to that sort of like swaying of a crowd where they're just like vibing.But it is heavy.It's a heavy vibe.But it's not an aggressive vibe.Well, it's interesting too because, I mean, they're using guitars and like really basic instruments, but they do so much with them.And they kind of really almost like scientists, like we're going to study the guitar and figure out how we can like make these different sounds from it.Like listening back to all the records as I was doing too.At the time, I don't think I appreciated what they were doing.
20:14And like you were saying, I think for me, some of that music was just over my head when I was listening to it at that age.I think some of the topics they sing about were over my head.I mean, like, for instance, like I never knew who Casabades was until they had.you know, sing about him.Yeah.And I was like, oh, cool, who's this?And I like Google, you know, I didn't Google it because there was no Google.I just kind of figured it out.
20:31Oh, it's like a filmmaker.Right.So I was like learning.I didn't know what Exunta meant.I had to look it up in the picture.And to this day, I know it for no reason.There's a lot of things like that where I was like, I didn't know about this or, you know,they would kind of have a song.
20:44I'm like, oh, this is like, you know, this song about whatever, like some topic orsome political, you know, moment.And then I'd look it up and be like, oh, wow, this is how I, this is this thing.Cool.So I think I was learning from Fugazi, and they definitely were above my head.And I think their music was probably weirder than I would have listened to when I was a teenager.But because I loved Minor Threat and Rites of Spring and these other bands, I was like, oh, cool, this is this other band that's associated with these guys and then kind of figured it out.And I mean, also, like, Waiting Room, which is like the first song that they had in, like, 1988, such an incredible song.
21:21It's like one of the first songs that my kids who were now eight and ten that they kind of knew the words to and would sing along to you. It's like such a good song. And I feel like for a lot of people maybe that's like the one Fugazi song we know. Yeah. And it's worth it's worth knowing. Like it's one of the best, I feel like one of the best songs ever written where it's just like so, so much stuff going on. It feels so modern too. The fact that it could have come out yesterday and been pitchfork's best new track. Why don't we hear it? Let's hear a waiting room by Fugazi, which is off of, um,of their first release in 1988.Is that right?That's all the time.It's called Fugazi.Yeah.Okay.So here's a waiting room.
22:02That was a waiting room.You guys, I'm so sorry.I'm literally screaming.And I did, in fact, I was like,what if,wouldn't it be crazy of red hot chili peppershad covered this song?And low and fucking behold,
22:14you guys,they have.This song is by Fugazifrom Washington, D.C.See, you need to get Red Hot Chili Peppers on here and Fugazi on here.Together to discuss.The old times.1996, there's a cover.
22:31We'll drop a little clip right here.Hot Damn.I love it when things come together.Have you done a Red Hot Chilipers episode?Yes, babe.It's four hours long.All right, I got to dig that up.Somehow I missed that.
22:50Waiting Room is like too good of a song to be on, like, the first EP of a band.Do you know what I mean?I would agree, yeah.I mean, I think it's because they had all these other bands before they started Fugazi,so they were kind of coming together.But I think part of one thing I've always liked about Fugazi as well,as you hear these stories of like they would practice five hours a day, many days a week.They kind of had this really like super serious approach.
23:15Oh, they were disciplined, you mean?They were disciplined and they cared.But also it's like when I did that event with Ian, who's, you know, one of my heroes when I was a kid,there's a point where he called me so many timesto figure out details that I was like,oh shit, it's Ian again.And I'm like, I'm just not going to get it at this timebecause it's like too late.
23:34But I appreciate that careand that kind of commitment to a song.So you can imagine if they're going to put something outit's going to be good.And that's the insane thing about Fugazi in my mindis like, you know, end hits maybe,which came out in 1998,is maybe not the greatest record.
23:49But by and large, they didn't put out any stinkers.It was just like every record felt like they committed to somethingthe atmospherematched that record perfectlythe songs are always surprisingthey don't really you'll hear some echoes herein there but the waythat they kind of kept experimenting
24:05and incorporating new things and like longeryou know instrumental stretchessort of these different kinds of vocalsalmost pop kind of stuff here and thereit's really you know it's compellingand it's also it is discipline I think that they justkept rewriting things and didn't want to repeat themselvesAnd I think, too, when they come together, the four of them, they created something really special.
24:29And post-Fugazi, like anything else they did on the side, to me it was less interesting than Fugazi itself.That felt like the ultimate kind of accomplishment.And the last record, the argument was amazing.Like to sort of go out with that, you can see why maybe they've gone on indefinite hiatus, because it's kind of a hard thing to top.Totally.Well, maybe they'll reunite for Coachella.Yeah, that's what it was in their remember.I think, too, like, they are so disciplined that they're just like, yeah.
24:59I remember, like, one time I wrote Ian Mackay when I lived in Buffalo.And I was like, hey, there's like this little local place called Squeaky Wheel that might go out of business.Would you guys come and play a benefit?And he actually, like, he's like, this was, you know, before 2001, I guess, before they went on hiatus.But he actually took it seriously and figured out, like, what it would cost, how to get there.He's like, you know, I think if we did it, we just couldn't do an affordable show.for people to come, so it wouldn't make sense.But I think that's the other thing about Fugazi is like they get the rap of being,
25:30you know, assholes because they don't want people to dance at their show or mashof their shows and that.But I think at the end of the day, to write someone like that randomly, and, you know,we'd overlaps here and there over the year, so it wasn't completely random, but for themto consider it and think about it and get back to you directly.Whereas now in like 2021, you have bands who have like one seven inch out, who have like seven,managers and four booking agents and like a rider and just like would never get back to you.And it's like no, this is like Fugazi and they're getting back to you.
26:01That's I think that's what makes them different too.Brandon, we're going to play another song from this release because again, like I said,no business being so good.I'm going to go ahead and even say further that I think their two best songs are on their firstrelease, which is kind of insane.It is kind of insane.I did read somewhere that they practiced as a band for a full year before they, like, recorded music or played a show.Because I guess the intention was a little bit, like, not to play or something.
26:34It was like, we just want to play music together.And then, you know, all roads led to playing music and touring.I was saying, like, there's this thing that supposedly Amakai said where he was like, he didn't want to be in a band anymore.He wanted to just, like, make music with people who wanted to make music with him.Like that kind of idea of like, yeah, we're just kind of making.music together and then it took the pressure away or whatever or the you know the idea of having toget together just to do touring or something like that and then that's how they kind of got this verygood chemistry that's funny that you said that because I also read a quote from I can't remember
27:08it was Ian or Guy in the Washington Post from like 1993 about the $5 shows and he I think it washe was flat out like yeah if we charge $5 it doesn't matter if we suck so the pressure is off and I waslike God I love that for them how do II find a way to incorporate that into all aspects of my life because I'm a very anxious person.I want to hear, and I know that it was on your list too, but I want to hear a suggestion becauseI think it's a really important song, just like any which way you slice it. This is a reallyimportant song in the context of this scene, but also just like in the context of like humanity.And it was so early on that a song like this was being put out that it's kind of shocking.
27:52let's hear a suggestion. That was suggestion.I think I was to say too, it's interesting about that song like you were saying,is that they sing it from the point of view of the woman who's being harassed.She walks down the street in general.And you're right, that is like for the time 1988 in the scene.That's like a pretty revolutionary approach to a song.Yeah, and I think Ian got some guff.That's right.
28:19That's a cool word.about like, oh, you shouldn't.There's police everywhere all the time.But like, oh, you shouldn't presume to know the experience of a womanwhere it's like, he was, from what I read was writing from the lived and told experienceof a female friend of his.And also it's like, why not?Why can't he like put that into a song?
28:41He's a writer.Totally.And I think too, I mean, Fugazi, for being as political as they are,were definitely not PC in a way that, like you're saying,there is this kind of like scene policing everywhere.And they definitely pushed against that.I think the other song that Ian got a lot of guff over from the minor threat dayswas guilty of being white.
29:03And he's sort of written that as like being one of the only white peoplein a largely school of mostly black kids.And he just felt like separate.But also you can see, wow, this song came off really wrong, Ian.But it's like, you know, he pushed into that and tried to figure it out.And then he's gone back over that over the years and like, yeah, that song didn't come out the way I intended it and, you know, owns up to those kinds of mistakes.But I think he's always pushing against politics as well.So it's not like they're towing the line.
29:31They're like attempting to like, yeah, make people uncomfortable and not like a way of being like provocateurs.But just like sometimes politics aren't comfortable.And it's like sometimes you can make the wrong statement or the wrong song.But it's better than just like being middle of the road and saying nothing.Totally.I mean, this song made people uncomfortable suggestion.I think the most interesting part of the song is that it shifts perspective kind of back on to the we that is like men, right?Who don't do anything to stop this stuff.
30:09And like a line from this album or this song that always sticks with me.is the suffer your interpretation of what it is to be a man.Like,it's really fucking powerful.Yeah,I think there's an interesting combination where it's like,even,you know,
30:31having done these talks or things with Ian here and there is,they are such brash people where you've seen like someone try to interviewGhee,like these things are on YouTube,you know,where it's like,like easy,easy answers for you.
30:43Why do you think people like it?I don't question that,I just play it.They definitely like don't,pull punches.You want me to say this is the 90s?Go ahead.All right.
30:54You're watching the 90s.Great.But it's never in like an asshole way.It's more of just like...I can't give you much more than that.I really can't.I'm very tired.An honest way.
31:03Like I'm not really,don't want to do an interview right now.I don't have the time.Like I'm sorry.And I think that's in a way more interesting and more honest than just kind ofdoing the half-assed approach to it.And the same thing with the politics.About the inventive boundaries is what you're saying.
31:16Yeah.Yeah.Just kind of being like, oh, well, okay, maybe I'll do this thing.But it's sort of.It's just very passive and whatever.And yeah, they definitely push things constantly in that way.But they also were just smarter people to kind of do it in a way that was interesting.It wasn't just coming off like as sloganeering or like empty gestures.
31:35So yeah, I agree.That's a very good song.So I put it on my little list.I like that also that they kind of like famously also refused to explain their lyrics.Like they're very much just like, okay, we wrote the song.figure it out. Like, we're not going to hold your hand through it. You don't get to know them as muchthrough interviews or whatnot, so you've got to take them with face value of the music. It's interesting,like, going back through all this stuff, I was thinking, too, about why I cared about music in the first
32:07place was because of, like, the community around it, and people felt like they were kind ofremoving themselves from popular culture in a way in creating their own zone outside of it. I thinkFugazi stuck to that.And nowadays, it's almost like the lobster in the water where the water keeps boiling.You get used to the water boiling.I kind of got so used to like social media and Instagram.I kind of was like, oh, wow, yeah, this is like such bullshit and so ludicrous so much.It's so performative.
32:35It's like people just saying stuff to get retweeted.It's like, wow, it's so nice.There was a time.There's footage of a Fogazi performance in front of the White House that I was watching the other day.Keep your eyes.I was like, oh, yeah, that's when you go to shows and nobody had cameras or, like, nobody had phones.And you're just kind of chilling and, like, not even chilling.You're just, like, going crazy at a show.
33:02And not so you can then, like, put yourself in a picture and be like, hey, I was at the Fugazi show.I think it was just a different time, but they just kept stretching it on and doing it even into the early 2000s.And when you were talking about, like, the Red Hot Chili Peppers and how they kind of diverged.I think it's like a good thing where, like, the Red Hot Chili Peppers kind of adapted to the time.Yeah.Fugazi kind of just stayed stalwart, you know,they were just like, no, we're not going to reunite,we're not going to do this, we're not going to do that.
33:27Not to diss the Red Hodgeley peppers at all,but it's just like they just kind of took different paths, you know.Yeah, I mean, you said it earlier, even about Henry Rollins.Like Fagasy was a band that said, no, bands like Red Hot Towers always said yes.Yes, I'll inject cocaine into my arm.Yes, I'll, you know, lots of yes.For better or for worse, and it led to different things.I have a question.
33:47Okay, so at this time, you know, like,minor threat started it or Ian started it with minor threat and you know obviously they also always puttheir own music out through discord um they had their very specific policies about we said it beforeshows can only be five dollars all shows are all ages did this affect the rest of the scene around themlike did the rest of the bands and i know a lot of the bands in their scene were also on discord um did theysort of pick up the same policies or like were there bands that were sort of like, no, wewon't booze at our shows or like, no, we're not straight edge.Like, because I don't really, I'm, I don't think I'm very familiar with like what was going on
34:29in that scene at that time.What's interesting is I feel like a lot of people have influenced who just weren't as interestingas Fugazi.Like I think a lot of the like hardcore bands or post-hardcore bands I liked, you know,when I was younger, workplace shows, New Jersey or something who were really into minor threatin Fugazi.They just didn't make as interesting music.And I think what makes Fugazi so compelling is, and this will sound ridiculous, but it doesn't sound like the music of people who don't drink.
34:52You know what I hear you.It fucks.It's like, yeah, it's like it's like the bass lines.It's like sexy.It's like this.It's like all these things.And it's like, whereas you normally think of like the dudes with the X's on their hand and just playing really rudimentary like screaming, hardcore.And like Fugazi was so much more expansive and interesting.
35:09And like I was saying, I think they're more interesting guitarist than like Thurston Moore, for instance.And they were just these dudes who came from this hard.core thing and stuck to this very specific rule. And it's almost to a point where I, you losetrack. Like, are they even still straight edge? Like, what's the deal? Like, who knows? But it just gotabsorbed so much into what they were doing that they did it in like the most interesting way possible.So I think it did influence people. Like it definitely influenced me as a teen where when we startedputting on shows, we're like, we need to keep it the prices down. We need to do this. We're not going tohave drinks. So like definitely that area of influence. But I feel it's like in the bigger situation of
35:46the music industry and stuff.You know, the music industry is so, such a mess.And I feel like as live shows come back, it just, like, amplifies that.And a big part of it is that the bar makes more than the band often.People need to have, like, liquor sponsors.There's all these things that are, like, the economics of the music industry that Fugazikind of refused a part of.You know, there's, you know, all the stories of, like, they were approached by this
36:11major label offered millions of dollars.They didn't take it.I was actually saying to my kids one time, I was like, they didn't take it.They said no, and they actually ended up with more money in the end because I think a lot ofpeople didn't get the idea you had to recoup in advance.It wasn't just free money.Then you would never get royalties.And they own their masters.
36:29They own everything.They dealt with the distribution.They weren't giving a percentage to a manager or a booking agent.So they just did it themselves and they ended up, you know, making more money in the end.But they were the most interesting to do it.I think a lot of people did it.in a very ham-fisted way, you know, of like,where this hardcore band, where this or that.
36:50And it's just, yeah, it's like hard to explain,but they just were so much more interesting about it.So it influenced people, but it influenced a lot of, like, bad imitators,I think the same way like Nirvana, when Nirvana got signedand Grunge became a big thing,suddenly all these other grunge bands popped up,and some were good and some were completely terrible.And then we eventually got Nickelback.
37:10And that's just how it goes.I was struck because I was.talking to my friend Rick Rodneywho was in another strange bandformer straightge band Strifeand he was, I was just asking him, I was like, you musthave some Fogazi stories like you were aroundand he was like yeah like
37:25I, one of the best, the best showI've ever seen was Fugazi, theyopened, I think they opened for beathappening or maybe beat happening open for them.Yeah, yeah. Which is likethat was the thing I was struck by. Like the rest of it wasjust like it was a great show but I was like, what a weirdbill like
37:40and think, but then thinking it's likeK Records is one of the only other, like, outfits in the industry that I can think of that, like, mirrors in a way the ethos of Ian McKay in Discord and sort of, like, kept that to whatever extent it did.Do you feel like that K was inspired by a minor thread?Or, like, is it just sort of like one of those, like, cultural zenith things that the same thing was happening in two different scenes in two different parts of the country?I think they overlapped.I think I was definitely into K Records.at that time.I really into beat happening
38:15and later, you know, unwound,who was more kill rock stars,but like that kind of stuff.I think there was like an overlap.I think that's the thing is where like oftenif you got really,if someone who ended up being into Fugazi,you're like, you're into bad brains.
38:33But they're also into lungfish.Right.Who felt like they took this like minimalist thingto an amazing end.And there are a lot of things around it,but it was all part of a politicsand part of an overall ethos.And back in the day when I used to work at pitchwork,
38:54there was a time when everybody was getting really fascinatedwith like pop music and like mainstream pop music.And it was funny to me because I was like, oh, wow,like when I was 20 something or whatever,like our whole thing was to kind of, you know, like kill rock stars.Like the whole idea of just kind of like removing yourself from that worldwhere it wasn't very interesting.And I think so that ethos spread across.
39:13But it was like making shows accessible is the whole DIY thing.Like the K Records thing was like,anybody can play guitar or anybody can do this.and, you know, beat happening were pretty rudimentary.What is that cheerful sound?Rain falling on the ground.Yes.And they were really effective at what they did,
39:32and I really loved them as a band.But I think that's the thing about Fogazithat still makes them so interestingis, like, just how good a musicians they are.And, like, they're just, like, super amazing musiciansdoing this thing that not everybody can do.And I feel like, you know,Beat Happening launched a million love rock bands
39:50that, you know, had something in that zone and contributed where it's, like, very hard to sort of replicate what Fugazi was doing.And I think that made them stand out because it was the politics and the ethos could sort of branch across things.But, yeah, not everybody could sort of make these kind of super technical drum parts and baselines and connect everything together.Totally. That makes so much sense.Okay. Back to our Fugazi timeline story.So the first EP comes out in 88, and then they put out another EP right away, right?Mm-hmm.Wait, is it the same year?
40:29In 1989, yeah.1989, okay.Should we hear a song off of Margin Walker?Sure, I feel like, did I put Margin Walker itself?You put Margin Walker itself.Cool.This is Margin Walker.That was Margin Walker.
40:44So these two EPs get mushed together to become the first.the first album, which is 13 songs, came out in 89.Right. One thing I wanted to note before we moved on was that 13 songs, for me, was like one ofthe greatest records ever made, even though it was a compilation. And I think that's like somethingthat really stood out about it. It was like, yeah, this was not a proper record. It was thesethings smushed together like you were saying, but it really stood out as such a unified vision.Yeah. I think when I, that was the second Fogazi record, I got.got my hands on it. Somehow they carried it at the warehouse music. But I don't think I understood.
41:25I was like, how do they already, is this a greatest hits? I'm so confused. Again, could not lookit up. How was it received or like was it received outside of the community of, you know, people like youand like other like kind of kids who were already in on the minor threatness and the other stuff? Like did 13 songsextend past that in any way. It probably did. I mean, I think at the time when it came out,I wasn't paying attention, so I don't know. But I think they were a band that definitely gotbigger and bigger over time. And when they would play, more more people would go to the shows.And they were, I mean, the shows were always sold out. But more people you would know would be like,oh, yeah, I'm trying to go to the Fugazi show, but it's sold out or whatever. So it became like
42:12a bigger thing. But that's sort of the weird thing about it is, yeah, in retrospect.it definitely did and a lot of people bought that recordand it's like a really high sellingas far as their records go it sold a lot of unitsbut at the time I didn't noticeyou know like it was just kind of coolhere's an easy way to have both thingson one handy CD versus like the little cassettes
42:37that we had there were a lot of bandsthat there's like some velvet sidewalkor like um later on you could hear itin like heavens to Betsy and like Slater Kinneyand all these things that came, like,having the best seed,insulator, Kenny, but like, yeah,these things have definitely shared that kind of vibe
42:55and that feel of, like, what Fugazi was doing.But then you could also hear it in, like, you know,dub music and other kinds of things.So it did cross a lot of different areas.And I was thinking, too,listening back to these,some of the later songs,you start hearing, like, Jawbreaker and other kind of stuff.
43:11Yeah, I think it's interestingbecause Fugazi didn't really have to contendwith even the major label questionuntil after, you know, quote unquote, the year that punk broke, right?Like, so 91 comes and goes, and then all of a sudden it's like this major label feeding frenzy.Like there's like eight A&Rs at every fucking punk club in America.And Fugazi with Repeater in particular, because Repeater performed really well, I think, due to what we sort of hinted at before, like, they're like sort of like grinding endless, like 280 shows a year touring.it sold like 300,000 copies or something like unheard of for an independent release.
43:52Yeah, I think the thing too, I think the context of Fugazi having been doing, been in bands for a while and having this moment with repeater, they just knew better than a lot of people who are younger and just kind of got caught up.And there's always that feeling of like, if I just open for that one band, we're going to make it.If we just make that one deal, we're going to make it.Yeah.If Fugazi hadn't sort of lived long enough as a band and as other bands to realize, no, the one thing is not going to save you.And in fact, if you have the slow and steady build and maintain your masters and, like, own all your stuff, it's just a better call in the end from like a flash in the pan, major label thing.And like you were saying too with Jawbreaker, it's interesting.Like if Fugazi had said, you know what?
44:36What the hell?We're going to sign a major label.Yeah, they probably would have like imploded the band.You know, people would have been like, what the hell?I think people, and this is just based on the documentary that I rewatched, there was, like, kids in that doc, like, saying Fugasi sold out anyway, and you're like, babe, how?Like, I don't, like, if that, if you think that band sold out, like, what, what are you asking for?What are the standards?It's just more mainstream.
45:02More like how many people will buy our album because we're going to conform to what they want to hear.See, I don't believe that.That's bullshit because they pretty much say the same except for their music got faster.Yeah, I mean, it's always, like, I always say it's like people who are.still in their parents, friends and family plan, like they can't talk about selling out.You know, it's like if you're still getting your bills paid by someone.Still, my cell phone bill is still paid by my parents.But it's like, you know, it's hard.
45:23If you're paying your bills and stuff, some people have to make those decisions.I'm like, all right, cool.We're going to do this thing we weren't intending to do.But hey, we got to pay the bills this month or something.But it's funny.Different people have different levels of like viewing what a sellout is.Like we're saying before, you know, more mother who I manage, just signed an anti.And she would joke was like, yeah, this is my sellout.
45:41out record. And it's like anti is not really sell out.Anti is a subsidiary at the top.But in her mind, she's like, you know, this is, and she sort of said it tongue and cheek,but it's like, no, you know, people could view it that way. And I think there's different,so people could say, yeah, Fugazi sold out because they, you know, whatever, just like a documentaryabout them that Jim Cohen made. That's, you know, what, this or that. But people view that kindof thing you can never do right. And something's always going to be wrong. And people have theiropinions of Fugazi, too. And I think the thing that, you know,
46:11I've thought about when we're rediscovering, like sort of revisiting them for this was thatpeople often would sort of say that Eamaki was kind of childish or like, you know, the fact thatyou're still straight edge or this or that.It's sort of like a babyish thing.But I was thinking like how they just seem like such grown ass people the whole time, evenwhen they were super young.And they just kept seeming like that, you know?And it's like, yeah, the way they handle it is so different than people who, it's kind of
46:39like you can put the same ingredients in a thing.But if you're like a crappy chef, it's not going to taste right.But if you know what you're doing, it comes out perfect.Somehow Fugazi just did all these things that could have been so cheesy, could have come off so wrong.And they're just like so good.Like I was thinking back with, you know, when Ghee was trying to get the crowd to chill.And it's like this famous thing.It sucks to have to tell people to behave themselves.
47:01But there's other people here too, all right?So try to be a little more kind.Right.There's the one where Gie is just like, dude, you're trying to be so tough.But I saw you eating ice cream before the show.Like I saw you guys.You were eating ice cream.Don't deny it.
47:15Just ice cream eaters.I saw you two guys earlier at the Good Humor truck.And you were eating your ice cream like little boys.And I thought, those guys aren't so tough.They're eating ice cream.What a bunch of swell guys.Yeah, they were just so good at like kind of diffusing things, but also just like really funny.And I think the funniness is something they didn't get a lot of credit for because people saw them as such like, you know, they're not letting us dance.
47:37We're not doing that.So there's always going to be the person who says,out or like they're unfun. But you know, the shows were really fun and they themselves were likefunny people. And I think they just have like an ethical thing they stuck with. And sometimes if you,if you don't shift comes off as like stodgy or dogmatic or whatever. It's so true. Let's hear asong off repeater. What song do you want to hear? I think I chose a few, but let me see. Sorry.We can hear like. Yeah, I think you're like repeater. It's.itself is a great song because it's one of those like songs you would hear live.
48:13That's a big shout aloud sort of shout along too.But I think merchandise is great because it's very much like we were talking about thisidea of like you're not what you own.The band doesn't know you anything.They can like if they end, they're over.It's like a lot of their stuff I feel like they set very early on.Like here's what we are.Here's what we're doing and here's our ethos.
48:34And you can like be in or you can be out.But I think, you know, many times like the artist is like,last one to be considered in situations.Like we were saying before, like, often a venue makes more money off the bar than the band.I think Fugazi was really trying to say, like, hey, these are the, you know, we're the peoplemaking the work.We're the artists.Like, we deserve respect.
48:53We deserve, yeah, an audience is going to pay attention.Like, I was singing this other day, and it's a very different thing.But, like, after a Nets Celtics game, you know, members of the Nets, someone got, you know,someone threw a bottle or something on one of the Nets players.The toss right there.It just misses.They were just basically saying like, you know, we're not like animals.We're not here just entertain you.
49:17We're like people and we're here because you're paying to see us and like we're the focus.We're the ones that have like worked hard to get here.If we've got like a very, that's like really simplifying things.But these are what a lot of these songs were saying.I think merchandise is a very good example of that.All right.Let's hear merchandise off a repeater.Okay, that was merchandise.
49:37You know, as a tourist.who likes things. I have a hard time contending with this. I'm never having made merch band because I lovemerch. I love t-shirts. And I hear them. They're like, you know, we don't see you as simply aconsumptive entity. And perhaps I should not also see myself as a consumptive entity. But I loveconsuming. So that's maybe something I need to work on within my own soul. I think too. I mean,I like merch too.And I think that's the thing about Fagasy that I'm sort of like I'm beating a dead horse,but it's like for them it does make sense not to have it.
50:17You know, and like it's like, you know, not part of the show.And I've been talking to Ian a couple years ago about doing an even show,which is like, you know, this other project.And part of the thing was he was like, yeah, we don't like to have opening acts.And like we bring our own sound system.And it's just like very specific things.And you're like, cool.And somehow it makes sense.
50:36where in most cases people want an opening act because they kind of help to like bring people in or like they make the show start a little bit later.They don't want to really necessarily lug their entire sound system around because it's easier just to kind of get there and plug in.But they set these kind of rules or like these kinds of ideals.In a way it's kind of like Fugazi in some sense is almost like a manifesto in band form.But in a way that's not annoying.like they do these things and somehow they make sense.But if someone else did it, you would just be like, dude, what are you trying to prove?It just feels like it comes from like a very honest and pure place and not in like a performative place.
51:18I mean, I think there was like nobody on Fugazi is really on social media.You know what I mean?They're not like out there like Instagram and pictures of their vacations and stuff.They're just like a different kind of zone.So it comes off as authentic.And they're like, cool, I get it.It makes sense.It's like Thomas Pinchin didn't do readings, and he made it work.
51:37You know, and I think Fugazi's that way over these.Somehow they made all these things work that in the wrong hands would just be incrediblyannoying for the wrong band.Well, luckily they did play one gazillion shows.That's true.Merch or no merch.And, you know, I think no one could say that that's not part of the way, if not wholly,the way that they got bigger and bigger.
52:01because like we talked about a couple of times.This is pretty rudimentary internet time.So it's not like, you know,stereo gum was existing or talking about them.So they were just road dogs and they toured all over selling out these like, you know,decent sized venues.I mean, we're not talking to arenas.We're talking like clubs or more likely a VA hall is not clubs since there's no alcohol.
52:27Repeater comes out in 1990.So we sort of said it's like.like right before the year that punk broke.But the like selling of the albums,because they didn't make another record for like three years,kind of continued.They kind of continued touring off of this album for a while,and it just got bigger and bigger.
52:47And then that's when these labels came knocking.But I also read, and we know that they said no every time,I also read that like the bands that did become the big grunge bands of the 90s,you know those bands loved Fugazi like they were showing up at Fugazi shows and also did you know I this was like in my deep Googling but like early on Dave Grohl like was briefly considered to be their drummer.Isn't that funny?Yeah.Yeah. I haven't been not funny at all. I think too like I think that's the thing is like this music all exists in the world.And I remember once going to City Gardens when I was I feel like maybe I was in high school or maybe high school and I was interviewing all.
53:30like A-LFor my zineAnd they were kind of complaining aboutHow Green Day had taken offAnd they had you know what I meanAnd they were just like man this Green DayBut then you'd see Green DayAnd they were like yeah we love the descendants
53:42We love allAnd I think there just always was that thingWhere everything was circulating in the real worldAnd then certain things took offAnd certain things didn'tAnd I was actually talking toKathy from Sergeant House a few weeks agoShout out Kathy
53:54Shout out to KathyAnd she was saying likeIt's interestingSometimes bands will both have the same exactingredients, the same exact kind of record, the same everything, and then one takes off and onedoesn't. You know what I mean? Like one becomes the thing and one doesn't become the thing. And it'salways hard to know why. But so certain bands have their moments and certain bands take off and theydisappear quickly. Some kind of go slowly. And like we were saying, they just saw no reason to sign
54:22to these things. And so they just toured a lot. And that was their way they made money. And becausethey toured without a booking agent and without managers and stuff. And, like, we were saying, they just saw no reason. Andhave, yeah, they were to kind of maximize the profit on those things versus like if you're paying, yeah, manager, tour manager, this and that.They just did it all themselves, which cut out so many different commissions.I know, but doesn't it sound tiring?It does sound tiring.I think it is tiring.I read some interview with Ian McKay, like, look, it was like a reflective, you know, they weren't really doing interviews at the time.
54:54It was like probably very recent.And he was just like, yeah, there was days where I was making 50 phone calls a day.and then like going to practice.And I'm like, go off King, but I'm also like, babe, that sounds so not fun.Like, what about the part about being in a band that's fun?Right.Yeah, I think, yeah, there's definitely an intensity.And I think that's what I was sort of saying before even when we were organized on that event.
55:16And he kept wanting more details.And I respected it.And I was like, this is cool that you're being so thorough.And it's also like, man, this is like a lot.And I think in that same interview I had with Henry Rollins where, you know,I think he and Ian are very similar in a lot of ways, even that they're very different.And Rollins was saying how he just has so much energy all the time.He himself does.
55:34Henry Rollins, he's like, yeah, I need to, I can't fall asleep at night.So I'll play a seven-inch.And then each time I have to flip it over, I do like 25 push-ups or something.I was like, man, that sounds like a cool thing to say, but that's exhausting.And that's just like a lot of energy.So I think there's a certain, and like Black Flag, of course, also like super well-knownfor doing these massive tours or just like hundreds of shows.Yeah.
55:55So, yeah, it is exhausting.It's definitely like they were.feeling it. They were into it.I guess I have a question herebecause I'mwe're going to move on to in on the kill takerwhichI think it's fair to say that the
56:11records are getting progressively not as goodbut that's okay. They're so good.This intendstouring.I know that Fugaziagain we've talked ad nauseum about their ethosbut were they concerned with successon any level like
56:27as defined by themselves? Like what wassuccess to them.I feel like they would be, I can't speak for them, but my guess would be like if you make agood record, you know, or you're like, hey, cool, this feels like it stands on its own.This thing feels done.It's like one of the things I've learned with the creative independent is like a questionthat people often ask the people being interviewed is like, how do you view success?Someone's like, well, I view success when I decide something is done or like when I can't add
56:58anything else to it and I feel it's complete or like even if I think people might hate it,I still think it's, I can't do anything else. So it's just like out of my hands. I think with Fugazimaybe they just kind of pushing themselves and expanding and trying different things and incorporatingdifferent things. Maybe that was success. But you also see them play live and they clearly loved it.Like they're definitely into it. They're not like mailing it in or like just sitting back.Like they're all so into it. So I think maybe success for them was just getting to play the music all thetime. And obviously, like, as purest as you can be, you want people to buy your music. And if theywere selling one copy of each record, they wouldn't keep going. Right. They needed something.
57:39They needed some feedback. They needed an audience to scold or they needed an audience to, like,dance with. And so, yeah, you had to have a crowd too, which I think is why they were always so receptiveto people asking them for, like, you know, hey, can you do the show or do that? Because they did,like the community around them and the scene around them and they cared about D.C. And I remember one thing,when I asked in like during some interview thing if they would ever unite he's like you know we'd only you know we're all friends still it's not like we have like some acrimonious breakup we just kind of went on hiatus but if the right thing happened we'd go back together and maybe if something like you know this dc needed us or it was some kind of thing like that like if there was some kind of thing in the city maybe they would do it so I think they were always much about very much about the community around the music and the scene of it but a big part of that is actually being successful I think if forFugazi had like four albums in order that everybody hated.I can't imagine they would keep going.Totally.
58:31I mean, they did seem maybe not doing push-ups to seven inches restless, but like pretty restlessbecause, you know, that exhaustive touring for a repeater lasted like a year and they went rightback into the studio, like at the end of it to make steady diet of nothing, which had to have been,like, that's kind of a breakneck pace.Do you feel like steady diet of nothing starts to sound a little bit different?I think so.I think they start being okay with like longer pauses and things.I mean, there's always pauses.
59:01There's obviously the pause in waiting room,but,you know,which supposedly came about because they made a mistake when they were doing the demo.We decided just to kind of like keep that space there.But I think they started being more intentional about itand more like soundscapes and instrumental passages,like different approaches to vocals,
59:19less screaming,more like some more crooning.Like there's definitely things happening and things being integrated into the overallsound for sure. And just, I mean, because there are people who listen widely to different kinds ofmusic. So you start seeing more of that music just becoming much more visible in what they're doing.Whereas, you know, with Repeater, it's an amazing album, but like the song Repeater merchandise,these are, they have elements of other things, but they're still like these super anthemic,like scream along, shout along songs. They start making songs, I think that you can actually like
59:47sing to, or I use the word before, but yeah, like, crew into or whatever. These things startpopping in more and more. And Repeater,was still produced by Ted nicely, but when we got toSedi-dive nothing, they produced it themselves.Yeah. I think they worked with Ted Nicely on it too, butthey, yeah, they started kind of getting more comfortable maybe with doingthings on their own. Like, I don't know like what the breakdown was of like percentagewise, but yeah, I think they started knowing how to do stuff more, making the sounds
01:00:18they wanted to make. Like we were saying before, like within on the kill taker,when they tried to record it with Albini, I think they realized, all right, this isn't,doesn't sound the way you wanted to sound. So they kind of took it back and sort of went backto what they were used to doing. Well, let's hear a song, Off Study Day of Nothing, most famously,the first album that Yossi acquired as a teen, but also the self-produced for Ghazi album. What songdo you want to hear? How about Long Division? Okay, great. This is Long Division. OffI studied I have Nothing. That was Long Division. You know, it's like a bizarre.Zara World Police song.
01:00:58You know what I mean?Sure. Yeah, totally. Yeah.Was that Guy singing or that?That was Ian.That was Ian. But he's starting to change. He's starting to maybe yell less and sing more.I mean, he never was quite as flexible, vocally, as key. But I was actually just thinking while listening to him sing. I was thinking there's something about Ian's voice that is very soothing.Like that he doesn't shift it up too much. I feel like the changing.and comes more from his counterpart,
01:01:27but there's something about it that he's not, like, technically, like,what you would think of as an amazing singer,but he somehow is an amazing singer.Much like Anthony Kitos.I'm so sorry.I'll see myself.Except he enunciates more.I feel like Anthony Kedis sometimes you can't tell what he's saying exactly
01:01:44when he starts doing the, like, you know,the scatting kind of thing.Yeah, but I feel like Ian, like enunciates so much.It's just like, don't, don't, don't.It's very, very clear.or what he's saying.How do you imagine that they decided who sang which songs?I don't know.
01:02:06I feel like they would workshop them together,and they probably would come with some level of like,here's an idea I have,and whoever ended up being the fit forwardor whoever maybe wrote the most of it.Right.I don't know.I feel they knew their limits
01:02:18and they were like what they were good at,and they found a way to kind of work together.And I go back again to waiting roomand just how, if you listen to that even now,you're like, man, this is such a good thing.good song and the use of the different vocals is so incredible and so radical for like the scenethey were coming out of and there's just like a sense of composition there that's really reallyinteresting okay so you mentioned earlier on and on the album in on the killtaker which was from
01:02:441993 it was first regarded with steve albini i find that really interesting i know that they didnot release that version but i want to know like do you have any sense of like what even because i havelike a smallburgeoning theory here that I'm likeoh Fugazi started to swaynot sway but I don't know there was likesomething in the water where they were likemaybe
01:03:10like shift starting to shiftcourse but then completely didn'tlike what was the impetusto work with Steve Albini? Because at this pointhis like kind of pedigree before this waslike very in the wheelhouse oflike the Jesus lizard andhelmet and John Sensor
01:03:26Blues explosion andand, you know, a lot of really interesting and not major label bands.Like that didn't really, like, kind of take off until actually after Fugazi was like,we don't want this, thanks.It was like 94 or something.It was 93, but they recorded with him in 92.Yeah, it's interesting because he's like, you know, his whole ethics was like,I just set up the mics and you record and like, that's what I do.
01:03:50Like, it's just like capturing the sound.He never really, he would not really produce.He would kind of just like record it.Anybody who could book the time and, like, pay, Albini would record them.You know, it's not the same kind of thing of like a producer who's like, like,Rick Rubin, who's like, no, I want to, like, we need to get together and like walk togetherover hot coals with their shoes on and, like, do trust falls and stuff.Steve Albini will record anyone.
01:04:15I think he's gone on record.Yeah, so he just kind of like, I'll do it.And I kind of have a really pure vision where we just record what's in the room.And he's, like, amazing at knowing the right mics to use and, like, how to capture the sound.But he's not sitting there, like, adding, like, you know, all kinds of overdubs and stuff.It was just kind of, like, his vibe.So I guess as they went there and, yeah, maybe you're right.Like, maybe they were thinking, hey, this Albini guy, we share, like, an ethos with him.
01:04:41And, like, you know, Albany had his background in the scene from, like, you know, bands like,Raith Man that could never exist in this day and age and, like, Big Black and just, like,really, like, number-pushing kind of music.So he himself had a background in music and coming out of, like, touch.and go and all that kind of stuff.And who knows?Like maybe there's just an overlap in that zone.But maybe two, they were like, hey, let's try something different.
01:05:03Let's shake it up.Okay.So did it ever get leaked?Those Albany sessions?I think they exist.Yeah, you can find them online, I think.Or parts of them or something.We should probably, I want to clip them here.
01:05:16I'm interested to see how they sound different.Okay.It's just Nirvana song.It just sounds like a Nirvana song.Yeah, exactly.I, in On The Kill Takeer is also really interesting.interesting because it was the first Fugazi album to chart. And I don't, like you said, it's notthe best Fogazi album, but it's definitely heralded as their breakthrough album. I'm curious how
01:05:50much of that had to do with the fact that they finally acquiesced to adding barcodes. They neverhad barcodes on their records before this. And on in on the Killetaker, they were like, okay,will allow barcodes, but only on the outside of the packaging,instead of as part of the art.And then now they could be in like warehouse music and Tower Records and stuff,which before, you know, those chains wouldn't usually accept your musicif it didn't have barcodes.So do you feel like that also added to like the bigger sales of the band?
01:06:22It was just more accessible to more people?Probably, and you probably just keep better track.But yeah, it probably was more accessible.But I think also like when bands around long enough,more people hear about them and get curious.Right.I think sort of that time period too, when I feel like you would just go out and buy a few records and listen to them over and over again.This podcast is just two old men yelling at the clouds.
01:06:45But I do.I really grieve for the time of like walking into a store and buying a thing because you heard of the band or because you liked the album cover.Right.But yeah, I just, I do. I feel sad for that that's not a thing. But I, you know, it doesn't matter.Like, it's like every new generation has their new experience with how they experience music and they don't have a point of comparison. So it doesn't matter to them. But like, I don't know if you relate. But like, because I did now, like nothing sticks the way those first albums stuck. And it's partly that you're a teenager and you're like a, you know, open wound for music. But it's partly that like, you found it.Like I found it.Totally.Yeah, like you were saying when we first started that you heard of Fugazi through reading something.
01:07:35And like, like I was saying, I learned about like John Cassavetti's from a Fugazi song.Or like I learned about Raymond Carver from reading Sonic Youth liner notes.I'm like, oh, what's this thing?I'm going to go check it out.But to check it out and have to go to the library, then look through the book.So here's this book.And then I get that one book, go home and read it.So it was like it was harder to find things.
01:07:56So when you found them, I think you just.just kind of, this is very old man, but like sort of a treasure it more and just like,here's this thing and I'm going to like absorb this. But it's also just less stuff.Yeah, you were forced to engage with it more, I think. Not forced, but like you felt compelledto engage with it more because it was like the one thing you had. And like you're not going to justlike go drop another $15 or whatever. Like that's my allowance money.I remember saying to someone once. I was like it wasn't like I was so disciplined or like somelike very smart teen or something. It was just like I lived in the woods. There wasn't that much to do.
01:08:27So I'd go get some books and I'd read them because what else was I going to do?We got like two TV stations and I could get like the college radio station if I stuck tinfoil on my antenna and I had my records.But there was just less access to things.So you just kind of focused more.It wasn't like printers going off behind you, people calling you while you're trying to do a podcast.Like all these things that have happened to me and even just like the last, you know, hour we've been here.It just wasn't that.Like before we even got on, I was like making sure all this stuff was logged out.
01:08:55So nobody could like slack me.It's just like there's so many different.ways to distract you or at the time there was less.Throw my fucking computer in the ocean.Okay.Everyone's paying attention to Fogazi now, including press, who is calling them the onlyband that matters, which is kind of really interesting.I'm assuming it's because besides the fact that it's a good story, you know,
01:09:23it's also like we talked about earlier.It's like the biggest bands in the world at the time that were just taking off the nirvana's and the pearl jams.You know, Pearl Jam especially, I think, like, very famously was idolized Fagasy.Curricobain famously idolized Rites of Spring.I remember from his, like, notebook.But, yeah, I mean, then the press is paying attention, and it's just interesting, like, nothing changes, right?Like, Fagasy's like, that's cool.Anyways, back to touring for $5.
01:09:55and putting out our records for $8 and archiving.I guess the archive game of the shows hadn't happened yetbecause there wasn't such a robust internet.I think there's a thing where with certain bandsor certain things you kind of reach your pinnacle early on.When you were saying before, like what were they,what was success to them?Maybe they achieved it early on.
01:10:14The success was just being able to do the shows,making these records, putting them out the way they wanted to put them outand having an audience.And so when they did have this opportunity,they weren't like, cool.Now it's our chance to play,late night or now it's our chance to do this or that. They were just like, you know what,we already had what we wanted to have and now we can kind of can just keep doing that.
01:10:32And I think I feel that too in my own life. I did read an interesting quote from him though thatI was like, something about this is like the lady is too humble here. That's the lady Doth protesttoo much. I just mixed it up with two things, but where he was like, you know, everyone was likesaying, you know, this is amazing, but only Fugazi could do this. But that wasn't the point. The pointwas to show that everyone can do this.Like, anyone can do this.Like, they didn't get it.And it's like, babe, that's not true.
01:11:01Like, that's a nice thought.And, like, I hear you.But, like, actually, not everyone can do this, you know?And that's okay.No, I agree.I mean, that's sort of, like, what we're saying before with the idea of, like,Love Rock and DIY and, like, K Records was the idea that, like,international pop underground.
01:11:19We can all do this.Like, we can kill rock stars.We can try to our own course.But I think if Fugazi was doing something that was very hard to do and to pull off with such authority and with such a big audience and it wasn't something everybody could do.And I also think, like, they were coming from a place where they had established themselves.So they had the privilege to say, no, we're not going to sign here.No, we're not going to do this.And they did it because I think that was their ethos.
01:11:42But they came from a place where they could do that where another band might be like, hmm, this actually will help us.And we can like pay the bills and keep going.But they had the foresight of this label that really worked.They had everything kind of, you know, cooking around them.So it gave them a little bit of flexibility.Also, like talent aside, although obviously they're extremely talented, like that self-assuredness, that early on, is not common.You know, and like it's very cool and very valuable, but it is not common.You know, like young people are not known for, you know, having their full ideas of the world and sticking to them for the next 40 years.
01:12:22It's like that's not usually the, you know, course of life.And I think, like, to me, it's super impressive because, like, not this guy.This guy was always like, I don't know, I have no idea who I am.Like, what should I be?You tell me.And to have that sort of like baked in with unflinching, you know, knowledge of self, like, that's another thing that, like, no one else had.Yeah, that's something I was saying really on too.It was like, Ann McCah, I felt like one of those people that you know who,
01:12:52when they're young, we already look old.But then when they get old, they kind of look the same, you know?And it's sort of like, he's like this dude who was like an old man from the beginning.You see interviews, even from minor threat days, you're like, yeah, it's like a young, old guy.But then now he kind of looks and he feels the same.And he kind of aged into what he was always saying.But he doesn't seem like a cranky old man.He just seems like, oh, yeah, Tia and Marquis is like doing the same thing he was always doing.
01:13:16Okay.So in on the killtaker is the follow-up to study diet ofnothing and it came out in1993. So this is thealbum I think that we've sort of likeside chattedabout in the earlier in the episodethe album that they
01:13:34first recorded was Steve Albiniand then they said, I don'tlike it. I'll think it again.When we were talking about themkind of becoming this perfectionist bandand I think that's something that you wouldn'talways have from a group coming out of punkand I was thinking about how
01:13:50Ian Mackay isa bit underrated as far as being a guitaristand how he really haslearned his instrument.A lot of other bands that came from thattime period,they kind of just got to their point and settledand just sort of stayed there and they kept playing the same
01:14:06songs. I think maybe that's part of the whole ideatoo of Fugazi not beinga band that reunites because they kind of just keptshifting and getting better.And I think it's a pretty, yeah,it's a prettyboss move too to go record with Albiniand then just be like, yeah, this isn't working.
01:14:22we're going to re-record everything ourselves.And it speaks to that perfectionist approach,but also just continuing to get better and betterand not settling for anything.Totally.Because I'm sure that's more of a headache to have to re-record everything.But if you're the kind of band with that mindset,that the headache is worth it to get the thing you're going for.
01:14:42I listened to In On The Kill Taker again recently,and I forgot actually how much I love this album.And I think I didn't.at first when I was like deep diving into Fugazi catalog when I first, you know, found what was going on.But now it's such a cool and interesting album and it has like so many clear and varied reference points.Let's play the song that you picked, which I think is Smallpox Champion.And then let's talk more about the album.Cool.
01:15:16Okay, this is Smallpox Champion off in on the Kill Taker.That was smallpox champion.Brandon, tell me why you chose this song in particular off this album.I chose because I was thinking how I went to pretty bad schools most of my life and didn't know a lot.And I feel like I learned certain things from the music I listened to.And I think Fugazi, for instance, would have a song that could talk about American colonialism or exploitation of, you know, indigenous people.And this could be my way into certain subjects.at the time or a reminder to dig more deeply, I think.
01:15:54So I chose it for that, but also I was thinking how they use silence in a cool way and spacein a cool way and just have these moments of pausing and then things go louder again.And that sounds very obvious, but I think they do it in a way where they often extend itlonger than you'd expect.And yeah, I just like the different levels of sound in that song, but really becausebe thinking back to how.I learned a shocking amount from listening to music that I didn't know otherwise,just from going to this very bad small town public school kind of thing.
01:16:28Yeah, totally.Well, I think that's probably still happening to this day.But I guess people are learning from Fugazi as we speak.Yeah, or from infographics on Instagram.Dark.Yeah, okay.I hear what you're saying about the like sort of unexpectedly long negative space,which I really like.
01:16:46And yes, obviously the subject matter of this song is about,you know, the evils of the colonizers and their smallpox infected blankets.They passed around.You know, a song, and we don't have to hear it, but maybe we could just hear a clip that I forgot that I loved so much on this album is Cassavetes.Oh, yeah.Because I feel like it's, like, kind of unexpected.Like, it's so jingly and fun, like, for a Fugazi song.Yeah, I just, I feel like this album was really interesting because like they may be more clear than ever, like you said, like they had become really, really skilled musicians.
01:17:39And also maybe that skill is what allowed them to kind of explore further into like different styles of playing.And it's really cool.Like you hear it and you're just like, oh, this is not what I would think of when I think of like punk band Fugazi.But there's really good stuff on there.Totally.And I think the Cassavetes is also a good example of me being an idiot as a child and not knowing anything.Oh, yeah, I remember you said that earlier.This album...
01:18:05I'm admitting I don't know anything.Oh, I mean, I don't...I just admitted to someone that I learned about the Ramones through my so-called life.When Jared Lotto's band plays, you know, I want to be sedated.20, 24 hours to go.I want to be sedated.Real ones will remember real people who were 12 years old.at that time we'll remember.
01:18:27This album was reviewed by Rolling Stone,which is kind of cool to think of there was a timewhere Rolling Stone was like pretty cooland did review bands like Fugazi.Yeah, I think by that point,like their mythology and lore had like, you know,hit pretty, you know, the height of what it was going to hit.And so, like, there was no ignoring this band, you know,
01:18:55even buy like a mainstream media outlet like Rolling Stone.I was reading something the other day.Someone sent me a book and it was an older book about like quote unquote alternative musicfrom the 90s and early 2000s.And there was a little like two page chapter on Fugazi.And something they were talking about was just the idea that there was that lore goingaround of Ian being on a phone call with a major label and him saying, well, we'll sign to youif you give us $5 million and kind of just like really upping the ante.
01:19:24and the label person not quite getting the joke or not getting the fact that it just would take, you know, he's basically like, we'll give you nothing. We own the masters, but you give us $5 million and making these like impossible deals. And I was thinking that's the strength in that band is they actually meant the stuff they said. Because often you have these moments in music where people put up a front and they're like, oh yeah, we would never do that. And then, you know, you add another $10,000 and then they're doing it. And then Honda commercial, here we come.exactly yeah I think of Shavasi they actually just stuck to her like yeah we're not going to do this thing and thenyou would know they weren't going to do it and so that led to this kind of mythologyit always was interesting when when the band was reviewed in those kind of publications because they oftenwould talk about the mythology as much as the music you know it would be hard for them to kindof explain Fugazi without being you know minor threat writes the spring discord like all those kindsof parts of it so it's a band that had so much baggageTotally.
01:20:20But then they managed to kind of like transcend that baggage, which I think is the interesting thing.Like if minor threat didn't exist or rights of spring didn't exist, these people would still have contributed notably to music.And that's just that adds to it that they do have that kind of backstory and precursor.Yeah, the ruling story interview says, in an age of corporate sponsored alternative music, Fugazi are the real deal.Remaining staunchly independent, Fugazi managed to sell in the hundreds of thousands while maintaining their incendiary politics anda raw difficult sound born out of the DC hardcore scene.It's much longer than that, but, you know, but, well, it's mentioning something, by the way,this was also, this album was also reviewed by like Spin and Newsweek.
01:21:04This album charted, that's why.Like, it was in the Billboard charts, which is, again, insane.And they were asked to play Lollapalooza that year, too.They said no.Here's some of my hot takes that I've been brewing here in my little crock pot.This might have been, again, I was too young or like not participating, but like, do you feel like this is the time where like, I don't want to say backfired, but like that it almost stopped working, like the aggressive ideals?Like, okay, for example, because Fugazi wouldn't do certain things, they could only play small venues.But they're a huge band now, which means people couldn't access them anymore.
01:21:50And like, because your shows are $5, they sell out in one second and you're playing a small venue.So, like, at a certain point, what they wanted to be was accessible to everyone, but it becamethat they became accessible to, like, very few people.I don't think so.I feel like there was a moment where they were so staunch with their decision-making and havingother ideals, having, like, talked to them about putting on some shows here and there.And when we played, man, we were overrife.ready to play. We were fucking about to explode from not playing. So we played these shows that
01:22:21were like explosions, man. We just destroy everything. As they grew, there was definitely thisthing where they were like, we need to play in a spot that can at least fit a thousand people.We need to do this. So I think it took a while maybe for that to catch up with them, you know,to have this like growth happen exponentially. And then suddenly you're like, oh, wow, we actuallyare being counter to what we wanted to do as far as accessibility and all that. But I think theyeventually figured it out and started having these rules for what's,size venues they would play.When I tried to put on an even show, which is, you know, Ian's post-Fugazi band,
01:22:54there was also the idea that he was like, we don't play with openers, we bring our own PA.They had like very specific rules, but I think part of that was knowing they would get thecrowd they needed with just that band themselves.So I think Fugazi, there was definitely moments.I think there's also plenty of people.I'm looking like in 1993 because I just turned 80 this year.I was in college at the time.And there was definitely people even then who were like, you know what, fuck these guys.
01:23:21Like they're too hardcore about all this stuff, just have fun.Like, what are they doing?I hate that.They say no dancing, blah, blah, blah, that fucking PC shit.I hate that shit.I mean, it is hardcore.There definitely was that line.And for people, for me, I was like such a fan of them that I was kind of like, they can do no wrong.
01:23:39I'll just get up earlier to get my tickets or whatever.But I think there was definitely people who felt that and people who couldn't get in.And there was.I felt frustrated.Yeah, and I think one thing with them.I mean, this is also, I was too young and not cool enough to get on guest lists of that time, I don't think.But I kind of feel like they were the sort of band that probably would not have a massive guest list either, you know?Like, who knows?
01:23:58They made all those rules for themselves.But they ended up doing better financially than a lot of bands.Totally.Because they did cut out all these, like, I think a lot of capitalism is ego.And I think a lot of bands grow.Then suddenly they're like, we need an entourage.We need a booking agent.We need five different PR people.
01:24:15They need all this stuff.And because Fugazi, like, you know, Discord had an in-house person.They booked themselves.They didn't have a manager.They kept things in control.They owned the masters.They've just done so much better than a lot of people who did maybe think,we're going to grow and we're going to be like a, you know, a huge band.
01:24:36So it's sort of like a counterintuitive thing where it felt limiting and somehow they actually maximized profit by cutting out all this other stuff.Totally.Yeah, I think at that time, people were more stressed out about major labels.Like, I do think now there's a different attitude to them, and people can be like, oh, cool, this person's on a huge label, but we love them.And, like, I think of King Princess.Like, she's giant.She's on a big label.But she's very cool and people really like her.
01:25:03And it's seen as, like, a cool thing.Whereas I feel like there was a time in the mid-90s where if you signed to a major, people were just like, all right, this is lame.Like, unless you started out that way or you were like Nirvana, or maybe people were kind of discovering you through that release.But if you've been on an independent and suddenly you jumped, people were very hardcore about it.Totally.I mean, let's never forget the fans that sat cross-armed and with their backs to Jobbreaker after.Dear you.Okay.
01:25:32So, and on the killetaker is like, I don't, I'm not going to use the word puts Fugazi on the map because they were clearly on the map.But like, I think did expose them to like a greater.Swap of the population who maybe wasn't part of the scene or part of punk through, you know, things like fucking Newsweek magazine and the billboard charts.Yeah, peak exposure is what producer Dylan says.But of course, they did what they do, which is go and make another album, right, almost right away.In 1994, they started writing it, which was Red Medicine.So Red Medicine comes out in 95.probably because of what we just talked about,
01:26:15peak exposure, riding the wave of in on the killtaker,this is the band's most commercially successful album to date.That's a cool fact.Yeah, that's what I do here.Arcane factoids called from the internet.How do you feel about red medicine?I mean, I love that record.And I think, too, one thing you were saying about peak exposure is interesting,
01:26:37where I was, like, I remember I used to work at pitchfork.and I'd like, oh, cool, we have like 2 million Twitter followers.Wow.Then you would see Kim Kardashian.Like, oh, shit, she has 20 million.And you sort of realize there's like a level of exposure that's just very different.Oh, my God.Sorry, quick side question.
01:26:56Do you think Travis Barker has played Fugazi for Courtney Kardashian?Oh, wow.I must know.I think the chances are probably likely, actually.Really, that gave me a little boost in my heart just thinking about it.Yes, but exposure.Yeah, but I think so I think there is like.like a different level of exposure where there's always this idea like, yeah, everyone knows about this
01:27:14thing. But then it's sort of like you might have had this in your own experience. Like,I've done a million interviews in my life. But until I interviewed Paul McCartney, then my dad was like,oh, wow. Sure. Like he suddenly got what I was doing. I thought it was really cool.My parents still don't know what I do for a living. So I don't get it. Can you please explain?And not that Fugazi's, you know, Paul McCartney level, but it's like, I think they did have a momentwhere they crossed it and more people.But yeah, I think Red Medicine is a great album.But I think there's just so many songs on it again that are just like pushing the envelope,
01:27:47but also that are just so catchy.And they just get, they're getting like better and better at their own form of hook,you know, making hooks.Yeah.And you see this kind of happening throughout.Like I think if they get more experimental and parts,some of those songs are just like straight up pop songs just with more distortion.So yeah, I think you see them just becoming better and better songwriter.
01:28:09and just like squeezing more and more out of this like very core group they have,but finding ways to kind of just keep expanding it and keeping it surprising.But not changing.Did you have to play some songs from this?Yeah, I was going to say, but they did not change their tune, if you will,about what they liked to sing about.Because I did see you have Target on here, which is classic Fugazi Amphi.and thumbs on.
01:28:41Yeah, I think that's the thing, too, is somehow, like,they're, and that's a good point that you make where, like, their core interests as faras lyrics stay the same, you know, like, we're not going to sell out, we're not going to bemerchandise, you know, we have our politics, but the music around it just keeps shifting.So it's like there's this core belief system, and that stays solid, but they're not afraidto kind of just, like, screw up everything around it, which I think is there's a point, too,where some people, definitely, like, some of the earlier people who maybe followed these bands in from their original groups,do start to maybe lose interest to some level.
01:29:17It's like, wait, this is too weird now.Like, what the hell is going on here?Like, there's too much happening.This is no longer punk music.This is like some crazy, complicated deconstruction of post-punk or something.Totally.But no, it's a good point that the core to it, like what they're talking about, never really differs.Like, you're not going to be surprised.
01:29:35Like, it's not like Ian's going to suddenly write a.song about, you know, how he's really into watching Survivor or something like that.Like they sort of stick to this, these main ideas.Oh, shout out Survivor.I guess never say never.Lost was on during that time.Yeah, I remember like the like super hardcore punk dudes that I somehow befriended at 13 years oldthat were in high school that were like subhumans patches and stuff on their jackets.
01:30:01They were not fucking with Fogazi at this time.You know what I'm saying?Yeah, I think they start, people start thinking they're like two and two.intellectual and like haven't like I grew up in a really small town and when I was a kid and I would read books I would get a lot of flack for reading books because it was this idea that people thought I thought I thought I was better than them you know and so I think which I did not yeah I just wanted to read books but it's like with Fugazi people are like oh whoa these guys they think they're better than us they can't just play three chords one no like why are they doing all this stuff like why is why do they keep reinventing themselves what are they trying to prove I think there is definitely there's that part of punk that stillexists, but I think which Fugazi very happily left behind and never really was a part ofnecessarily. But it's weird. There's that like, you know, live Fugazi waiting room video thatalways gets served around. And even today, my friend Caleb sent it to me for some random reason.I don't even remember why. He was going to meet a friend or something. He sent it to me.
01:30:58And in that in that video, you see like lots of punks, person on the Mohawk, all this kind of stuff.But I do think as they go on, they start getting more of the like audience that's like, you know,the chin stroking indie rockers as well kind of start coming into the fold.Modest mouse hype.Okay, let's, why don't we hear Target?Sure.I want to talk a little bit more also about this evolution, but here is Target.That was Target.
01:31:29I forgot that that song sounds like a talking head song to me.I think it's a very fair thing to say, for sure.There's definitely some talking heads.Compliment.In Fugazi.Okay, two, I think two things I'd love to talk about.One is like, while I was listening and like, yes, the talking headsness and how like inventive sort of like the vibe of this song is musically.Do you think that Fugazi's intentions from the beginning were always sort of like this sort of music and maybe they were just restrained by their capability as musician?
01:32:12and as they, like we've talked about,like improved and learned and, you know,got better and were able to do things,they just were suddenly able to achieve their original vision?Or do you think it was more like their vision just kept evolving?I would say I feel like it's probably a bit of both,but I think there's probably ideas,because I know early on they were definitely influenced by dub
01:32:37and all that kind of, and reggae and these other kinds of sounds.And the rhythm section has always been incredible.but I feel like maybe Ian had toplay a little catchupbecause he really also justsort of changed the way he sang here and thereand shipped that up.And I think initially when
01:32:52when Guy was doing morejust kind of like the sideman thingwithout a guitar.So I think they just kind of added more to it.But I think it probably just kept evolving.I feel like it's one of those thingswhen you have a project.People respond to it.
01:33:05You finish something and there's like,hey, maybe there's some ideas we left behindwe didn't get to.Let's like try this out now.Let's do this now.I think when you play as muchthey did in practice as much as they did, you're going to get better.But I think also that gives you more ideas because you realize you can accomplish this stuff
01:33:19and you can expand on the vision more and more.So yeah, it's hard to say.I'd be curious to know we should hit them up and ask.Yeah, get them on the horn.Target is arguably the most straightforward song of this album.Like, wouldn't you say?Like, I think it gets much weirder than Target.Yeah, I think it's pretty straightforward.
01:33:41I chose the song because it is.is just like a railing against the corporate music industry and corporations and all that.I feel like it's just such a like a tried and true Fugazi thing.Totally.And it's also really ahead of its time.Don't you feel like?I mean like the lyric for marketing the use of the word generation, like bin and still,they're still doing it.
01:34:05It's never going to end.Every generation will be marketed as the generation that they are.Right.I think that's the thing.that's what I keep coming back to it. I always feel that because I was listening to a lot of thismusic for the first time when I was much younger, I think they just had, and they were older,they had deeper insights into certain things where like when you get into punk as a kid,you're just like, yeah, we're railing against this or that, but maybe you don't have a concrete
01:34:27thing you're railing against. You just know generally there's like this side versus that sideor like you see things in a binary way. And yeah, they have these kind of truths that when you getolder, you realize, oh yeah, this is like a marketing thing. This is that. This is this. This is whatthey meant. But I think it can get you on different levels. You still know something's beingrebelled against. And when you're young, that can feel good, even if you don't have the specifics.But that's why they're an interesting band. You can listen to them now and still get somethingout of it, whereas maybe like a band like Propagandie or something that was much more like hamfisted,you're like, all right, all right, all right. They have their jams. You won't be, you will be surprised
01:35:05to know that this is the second time we've spoken of Propagandia on this podcast.They have some great songs.They really do.I fucked with propaganda pretty hard in high school and my deep fat records days.Okay.I want to hear another song off this album that is maybe like closer to the other end of the spectrum of not straightforward.Like when they get like let's let's hear them getting weird.Cool.
01:35:33Like forensic scene or something?You're a call bit.You're the expert.Let's do a bit for the scraping.Okay.great.This isBed for the Scraping.
01:35:42That was Bed for the Scraping.I'm really glad you chose this song because it dovetails just gorgeously into the next thing I want to talk about, which is refused.Who did cover this song.And who I think, I don't know, I just, I happened upon in my deep Googling a DennisLison interview where he just kind of like really pays.so much lip service to Fugazi of how like refused probably you know wouldn't exist withoutthat band and how much they've taken from both their ideology and their music how do you feelabout that I would agree I think something I hadn't really thought of but now I just thought of
01:36:28well one thing I thought of first was I was thinking how the guitars in that song actuallyremind me of Lenny Kravitz then the other thing I thought of was that um with refuse I thinkjust like a theatricality.And I feel like for all of Fugazi's non-theatricality,they have such a theatricality.And like these things they're known for,like stopping the shows,talking to the audience,
01:36:53geese dancing,like all these things.And I think that is something you can see and refuse to.Is this kind of like massive performance,this kind of like vision of the live show.And before I was thinking,part of me was wonders too.Like when Fugazi was writing these songs,
01:37:08were they thinking about the live show?because so many of these songs you're like, yeah, this would be great live.This pause will be amazing live.Like all these kinds of things.And that was such a big part of what they did, such like their bread and butterof going out on the road and kind of like carrying the gospel to different cities.Yeah, I wonder when you, as a band, when you start writing to like the live thing.I mean, you're writing for a record, obviously, making a collection.
01:37:33But like that song, you can say, wow, this is incredible live.And it's a weird song too.It's just like these repeated guitar riffs.and G.C. shouted vocals, and it's so super minimal in its presentation, but there's so muchgoing on with it as well. But yeah, definitely Lenny Kravitz, which I had never really thought of.It's a hot take. It's a piping hot, and I like it. I think you brought up something interesting.I think that there's like a misconception or maybe like a bad faith take on theatricality,which is that it's always inauthentic. Whereas like theatricality can be very,
01:38:10very purely authentic as an expression where it's like you look at, again, like someone like Fugazi,like you can't say they're not performing, you know, in a theatrical way. Yes, the Red Hot Chili Pep agenda.That's a band, I think, is super theatrical, but also like there's no doubt in my mind or anyone's mind.I don't think that that's not like coming from the pure, true soul of who they are. Orville Peck is a good modern day example, you know, like,that's pure theater right but like it feels extremely authentic to like the creator and i think thatis makes for like these kinds of artists that become mythological i would agree and over the weekendmy kids wanted to hear something what was it oh yeah they wanted to hear like the british like whatthe national anthem is and great britain your kids are the coolest and weirdest kids alive besides jess
01:39:21Hopper sons. Shout out to the four coolest kids.But yeah, they were, they asked about Godsey of the Queen.I was like, oh, have you heard the Sex Pistles song called God See of the Queen?So I played it for them.And then it kind of just rolled into some like, this will be my shout off to Spotify.Some kind of Spotify playlist were just kept coming up with other kind of songs from that time period.And the thing that I was saying to the kids was like, wow, this is so weird.This music is just like so straightforward and just like pop music or something.
01:39:46But then I was realizing with like the sex pistols, you know, it was a theatricality.It was like Sid Vicious doing it something.People like, you know, Gigi Allen bleeding on himself or whatever.Like, I'm fucking bashed my nose open again, ain't that good, eh?Yeah, that's really crazy.So much is about the theater of it.And the people who perfected that definitely, like you said, became legendary.And Fugazi has a theatricality as well.
01:40:14It's just like those live shows were intense.And there was so much charisma and just so much like the whole thing.Like, hey, we're going to talk to the crowd.We're going to play without our shirts on and be really sweaty and do crazy dancing.It's all part of the thing.If they were just staying there and nodding and we've all seen those bands where you go and see them,we're like, wow, this band doesn't need to be seen live.But Fugazi really was a band that experienced live was an incredible thing.
01:40:38And the people who can have that, there is a theatricality because who wants to see them to be on a stage with no theater at all.It's not like you need to have the theater of Def Leppard or something or whatever.but just having, you know, there needs to be a reason to keep watching,and you put an effort into performance.And these people definitely put an effort into performancebecause when you're practicing, who knows?I've never been in a Fugazi band practice,but you can't imagine they're dancing quite as hard
01:41:04as they are in practice as they are on the stage.If they are, that's incredible and thumbs up to them.But you sort of reserve some stuff for the stage.It's just hard.It's certain things like the adrenaline,being in front of people is much different than what you're doing at home.See, I just feel like Ghee is just constantly, that's his like life vibe.He's just like flailing around the house, death drops.
01:41:27Like, that's how I like to think about him.He's at Whole Foods right now, just going up and down the aisle.Yeah, it's splayed out.I don't know if he would go to Whole Foods.Although, again, I did watch the Fugazi documentary on Amazon Prime.So, yeah.It's impossible to control everything.That's a capitalist.
01:41:46Eventually, I think they realized that, you know.It's a bully.Okay, so end hits, deceptively not the last album, despite the name.True.End hits came out in 1998.The last two Fugazi albums don't get talked about as much.Why do you think that is?Well, it's funny.
01:42:13When you invited me to come onto your podcast, I was thinking back to Fugazi andlooking over the discography and I was thinking in my own life, this is probably the one that Ilistened to the least.And part of it was what came out in 98.At the time, I was living in a very small town in Canada.And I was mostly listening to like Smog and Leonard Cohen and being very deep, you know,just kind of my own zone.My vibe had changed a bit.
01:42:41But I also think that it is kind of like the most experiment.It's like pretty experimental and they did a lot of like weird stuff in the studio.It's like parts of it feel like cinematic and weird.I don't know.It's a cool record, but somehow it just never, because I love the argument.Like I think the argument's incredible.And I don't think this record is bad, like not at all.But for some reason, yeah, it's just one that I didn't super connect with.
01:43:06But then you see, like people did love it.You know, like there was definitely plenty.I was just looking through this thing and it's like, oh, yeah, pitchwork gave it a nine.You know, so it's like it was certainly not a record that people thought was terrible.But for me personally, like it was one that I didn't connect to emotionally as much as I did with some of the others for whatever reason.I think maybe it's just the time of when it hit for me personally.But I think for other people, it is like a changing time.The late 90s, you know, maybe people have moved on.
01:43:34It's been a long time since the first record.You know, it's been like basically a decade.And who knows, people can get burnt out.And sometimes maybe they experiment a little too far.far and people like, yeah, whatever, this is like wanky and not interesting, like, where for me,the argument feels so solid and composed and specific. And I remember, too, like the argumentbeing around, like, I forget when I came, what the exact date it came out, but I remembersomehow, like 9-11 being in the air. And it's just feeling like this really heavy message from
01:44:09like somehow like this super momentous thing from them. Yeah, it came out like a month after9-11. Okay, yeah. And this one just felt like you kind of snuckpassed basically. Also, I'll say pitchfork may have given it a nine, but not in real time.And famously, Pitchfork loves to retroactively love albums. But Rolling Stone gave it three and a halfstars, if you're wondering, because they did. They did review it. They give everything three and a halfto generally speaking, right? Or three. It's like, that's like the joke of Pitchfork gives music a seven or sixpoint seven or whatever. It's fine. It's derivative. Do you want to play a song off end hits or we don'thave to if you don't think it's important. Cool. Let's do it. Let's do five corporations.
01:44:53That was five corporations. Brandon, I'll be honest. I don't care. I'll tell the truth. I never reallylistened to this album. It's the one not to listen to, I think. Yeah, I'm surprised to or not surprisedthe synapses in my brain firing.It might be because I've been thinking a lot about modest mouse for reasons undisclosed.And this album came out in really that time of, like, while it wasn't part of the genre,you can hear like a bit of what's going on in music at the time.Like I was thinking like, okay, Franz Ferdinand core, like a little bit.You know what I mean?
01:45:35It was much better, obviously.I know she had to Frans Ferdinand and then.But like.sure that sort of like the modestmodest mouse did it a bit like the darkness like yeah yeah yeahstuff that kind of started to come around there and the like block party like thatjingly yeah you could see like Nick's inner like like doing that guitar riff totally and I alsohonestly thought of Lenny Kravitz again and now this is a terrible thing that I'm afraid of but
01:46:01now I'm going to somehow associate Lenny Kravitz with Fugazi oh Ian McKay is phoning you afterhe had this is going to be like sorrywhat, Lenny Kravitz, really?But there were a couple of riffs in there. I was like, waita second. But no, I heard you're saying, like, you can hearthe France for any, he's kind of like jaggy guitar riff kind of things.But same thing. For me, like, it's a record I've listened to,but it's just not the one that I've connected with for whatever reason.
01:46:24And I'm curious in general, maybe it is the record thatmany people have not connected to. Or maybe there's, like, one guy out there right nowclutching his chest and screaming at us because it's like his favorite record.Oh, don't worry. He'll come to the D.S.He won't scream into a void.He'll make sure he's heard.Okay, so no end hits erasure, but moving on to the argument, I mean, you've already said a couple of times, like, you love the argument.How do you feel the argument is ranked amongst like Fugazi purists or like Fugazi diehards?
01:47:03I don't knowYou guys don't have like a club meetingLike once a monthLike a summitI'm just looking here like atAnd I'm seeing that pitchfork gave it an 8.5Which I have to disagree withI feel like
01:47:15Certainly deserves a better score than a end hitsBut I don't knowI think at least in my circle of friends and stuffPeople were really into thatInto this recordAnd it felt likeSuch a strong album to bow out onYou know and sort of to be like
01:47:29All right now we're done for a whileI think I do think this is a great recordAnd I think in general people probably would like it.I would guess to say, I'd venture to say that I feel like it was a good,a good record to go out on.And I feel like maybe that's part of also why they haven't made another recordbecause maybe it felt like a hard record to top in some ways.Or where do you go next after this?
01:47:51You've sort of done so many like experiments, so many curveballs,perfected your craft so much.Like what's the next record going to be?I think now, too, it would be such a no-in situation.And like 20 years later, like, what the hell can you release?That's going to be worth waiting 20 years.Like, who knows?Totally nothing.
01:48:07I was talking to someone earlier about Mercury Rev.They were saying how they just spent like eight years between every record.And they're just kind of like taking their time.But I think Mercury Rev can do that because there's like a leisure to their music and kind of like a spaciness.But there's such an urgency to Fugazi that would be like, all right, what is this thing that took you guys this long to do?Well, this album took three years, which is long.for them to come out in 2001.What do you like about the album?
01:48:38What is it in particular?Do you feel like it kind of kept with the pattern of Fugazi continuing to like experiment further and further out into music?Or is there something else about it that you find pleasing or special?You know, there's cello and there's like piano.there's all kinds of different instruments.There's like some of the songs have like multiple drums happening,like different kinds of percussion, which I think is interesting.I feel like there's all kinds of people adding,
01:49:14there's like different kinds of vocals on it, you know,like Kathy from McKinney Kill and Bridget Cross from Unrest.And there's just like, I don't know,and Unrest was a band I always loved and felt like didn't get their due.But yeah, it just felt like a real coming together of a lot of different elements.So it feels like a community record in some ways.It hasn't really aged in my mind.Well, I can't say anything to add on to that because you said all the things.
01:49:39Why don't we hear a song from it to really drive your gorgeous points home?Let's see.How about, I really love an argument, but I think maybe like full disclosure, I think is the one that's like the bigger crowd pleaser.Okay.Let's hear full disclosure.that was full disclosureBrandon I have one questionand then we're going to get to a very special part of the show
01:50:08I'm afraid to even open this Pandora's boxbut and we don't have to be we don't have towe don't have to be a completest about thisbut like well who couldn't have existed without Fugaziwhat are or like who are like what arethe different lineages that came of Fugazi, because I think there's a lot, right? And I think it's kind of,I think that's maybe besides obviously the music and the ethics, their biggest legacy is like howdeeply they influenced bands that then sprouted into like five different genres of rock music.
01:50:51Right. Well, it's funny. I mean, for myself, like on Father's Day, I made a tweet where I said,Happy Father's Day and I posted pictures of Ian Mackay and, um,Robert Smith. And I was thinking like those were two, two important father figures to me, if you will,like as a kid that sort of influenced who I was personally. So I would say I probably would exist in adifferent way, if not for the band. I would say Thursday would be good since I know you werementioning Jeff will be on here. And I feel like Jeff is quoted in this book that I made that's not outyet. It's about like how to fail and like how to keep going kind of thing. It's how to fail successfully.and in that he talks about how people would often say his singing was too wordy and like he was trying to fit too many words in and too many ideas
01:51:35and how his initial idea for a band was like kind of almost like a grind core thing or something but he realized he was making something quite differentand I think he was making something that was in that zone of like sort of intellectual not the grind core can't be intellectual but I feel like yeah there's something about his approach as well that's super considered super thoughtful about language and message and all that I thinkthey could not have existed probably.People else could not have existed.Hmm.It's so hard because I feel like there's so many bands that exist alongside Fugazithat were probably influenced by what they were doing.Totally.
01:52:13You know, like the chili peppers.Yes.Influence by Fugazi.Fu fighters.Yes.Influenced by Fugazi.Nirvana.I would say, I think they're one of those bands that like
01:52:27It's funny, it's like there's so many people that are kind of those like Grammy-level rock bands that if you were to say Fugazi, you're like, oh, yeah, I really respect Fugazi.I think they have that.Then you also have all of the kids, you know, in much younger people who are making bands now that hold them up as heroic and contemporaries who probably saw what they were doing.And it forced them to like push themselves a little bit harder too.I would say like the dismemberment plan, who I haven't thought about a long time, probably couldn't exist without Fugazi.Propaganda.propaganda for sure.I think it's interesting because you could have the bands that are like the punk bands that have like the political part.
01:53:05Right.Maybe wouldn't exist in the same way.But then you also have the experimentation.That's why I thought of this memorandum of a group that's more in that kind of zone.I would say maybe like death cat for cutie.Yeah, totally.I mean like you were saying we were talking about modest mouse earlier.I think modest mouse falls in that bucket.
01:53:22You know, I think there's yeah.I mean, again, I don't want this is like the endless game of like we could.six more hours of just listing bands because, like, I would argue that, like, most rockbands, like, that I can think of or that I love, I think that that post-dated Fugazihave a bit of Fugazi in them or were in some ways guided by Fugazi.And I think that's like, that's a pretty fucking epic legacy, you know, to, like, leave on theworld.Speaking of Jeffrey Rickley of Thursday and also Richard Rodney of Stripe, a band that did not
01:53:56predate or post date Fugazi but did kind of live alongside them and I think was influenced by them.Those are two of our gorgeous fan voices we're about to hear.Let's roll that beautiful fan voice footage.It sounds really ridiculous to say that a band gave you the model for how you live your lifeethically, but you can say that about Fugazi and it's not ridiculous.Those guys, in addition to being an awesome band, were cool and relatable and down to our people.Their seriousness and intention about what they were doing, their sense of purpose was really something to witness even then.The best word to describe Fugazi is authenticity.
01:54:49They remind me of living by these ethics and having, you know, these thoughts and ways about how you want to,occupy the world and how you want to live in the world. They made me think about how I, you know,consume and participate in the world beyond music world, but also especially in music world.Am I a consumer? What does it mean to be a fan? What am I supporting? From how little theyconstrained themselves musically, lyrically to like how much they chose to stick tight with theDIY ethos they helped create.It's undeniable how much these guys were independent spirits and justfree thinkers. And now is the thing that got me interested in DIY culture.
01:55:39You know, it was like $6 shows. Let's Not Mosh.Records are postpaid from the label for $10 or $11.I forget out what it was now.You know, why would they do that?So I investigated it and I found, you know, the local zines around me.I found basement shows.I found garage shows.I found donation-only shows.
01:55:59I found why it's important to have all-ages shows.They really pushed this ideal was a woman who was close to the band saying,you know, there's not really safe space and hardcore for women.And you need to look at what you're doing and work to include people.They took that really seriously.And, you know, they really rejected the macho violence of hard.hardcore and punk that was considered, you know, the defining factor of punk.They were vehemently uninterested in receiving any kind of special treatment based on their
01:56:37history. They really wanted to start fresh like any new band without any baggage or hypeor laurels. And they were serious about it and earnest.Stuck to their guns and had actual integrity. And that's, you know, that's everything that I want.on a Thursday to be. When we started the band, we didn't like the same music at all, but we all agreed on Fugazi.Fugazi came on, and they opened with Joe number one, and I started to cry. It was pretty amazing.They made saying no to so many things cool, and they made caring about things cool.Gorgeous. That was gorgeous. I think what's interesting in those voices is thatSo many of the people talk about the ethics and the framework that we were talking about earlier,
01:57:33like the way the Rolling Stone interview starts out.And what makes Fugazi to me so special is they have that framework,but also the music that keeps it interesting.If they were just the framework, it wouldn't be that interesting.The fact that they can back it up.Then the other thing is the fact that the framework is needed that having ethics is something to point out is it's true.they have the ethics, but it's also kind of depressing that it needs to be reminded that, yeah,you can actually have ethics and navigate this industry in a way that you stick to your ideals
01:58:08you had when you were a young person to the present. And there's like, there's actually thistattoo I have that says FTK and my friend Jed Pelley has it too. Like we both got them when I wasleaving pitchfork. And the idea is, it was like means for the kids. And the idea was doing things nowfor the same reason you did when you were a kid or like a punk just coming up, keeping that kind ofphilosophy in mind. I think that's very Fugazi and definitely influence my point of view, but I thinkthat it does need to be a reminder at times that, yeah, you can actually navigate the worldethically and still be a success. And that's something great that Fugazi did. But yeah, if you don'thave the tunes to back it up, then it's just like, yeah, then I don't know. It's a little, it's like
01:58:49not as interesting, but they had both sides of it. Are you saying capitalism is depressing?Is that what I'm hearing you say?It can be when done wrong.Hello, Wells.Okay, well, this was just a fucking beautiful and moving and meaningful episode to me.And I hope to a lot of people, will I stop buying T-shirts?The answer is no.Brandon, thank you so much for coming on and talking about Fugazi with me.
01:59:25and all the other things that we got to talk about.It was truly a pleasure.Yeah, thanks for having me.It's always an interesting and fun thing and a weird thing.We're like, oh, wow, the stuff that I was just listening to, you know, as a youngster is now something I'm thinking back on and talking about.It's fun.It's fun to reinvestigate it.And it's also fun to be old and not to feel like I've left Fogazi down.
01:59:48I feel like I sort of have modeled my approach after a lot of what was in their, uh, even.And yeah, so it's cool. I haven't become a hedge fund guy or an investment banker. Maybe after thepodcast has gone and aired, I will, but for now, I haven't. So yeah, it's always a good reminderthat you can do these things according to this very simple philosophy of just being honest andapproaching things in a community spirit. So thanks for reminding me, Yasi. You're so welcome.I mean, I don't know if you did Ann Mackaye Proud because you did liken him to Letty Kravitz two different times on this episode.Yeah, you have to kill your idols as well.That's part of the whole thing.
02:00:33Brandon, can you pick a song to end the episode with, to leave the listeners with?Sure.Can be from any album.How about we do Blueprint?Because I feel like that's a good one because, you know, you build from a blueprint.It feels like a nice way to end.It's almost as if you're a writer.That's the thing has been built.
02:00:55Okay.Well, thank you again, Brandon.Yeah, thank you.Come back next week for a new episode of Bansling.And here is Blueprint.If you liked what you heard today,subscribe for more episodes of Bandsling, only on Spotify.Our enlightening guest today was Brandon Stozy.
02:01:15Follow him on Twitter at Brandon Stozyand check out The Creative Independent at thecreativeindependent.com.Huge thanks to the Fagazi mega fans who heard on this episode.Jeff Rickley, Daniel Littleton, Rick Rodney, J.P. Alvesz, Darcy Wilder, and Jessica Hopper.Bansplane is a Spotify original show.This episode was produced by The Patient Boy to My Waiting Room, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and edited by Michael Hartman, with help from Casey Simonson and Tari Miller.Executive producers for Bansplane are Gina Delvac and me, Yossi Salak.Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cozantino and Jennifer
02:01:56Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos Delagarsa in Los Angeles, California.Special thanks to Felipe Ghihermino, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Meyerson,Jessica Hopper, and the framed drawing of Dave Matthews I Got on Deepop, whose spirit continuesto guide this entire show.Come back every Thursday for a new episode of BandSplain, only on.Spotify. We did it, Joe.
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