Bandsplain - Madonna: The Movies With Amanda Dobbins and Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

Yasi is joined by Amanda Dobbins and Sean Fennessey of The Big Picture to reconsider Madonna’s life on film, including her breakout role in Desperately Seeking Susan, box office hits like Dick Tracy and A League of Their Own, polarizing works like Body of Evidence, and of course her most critically acclaimed film work, Evita. They discuss Madonna the cinephile, the vulnerability required to be a great artist, the unfair criticism that followed Madonna the actress, and what they think her best film is. CREDITS:Host: Yasi Salek @yasisalekGuests: Amanda Dobbins @akdobbins and Sean Fennessey @seanfennesseyProducer: Rob SundermannEditor: Adrian BridgesAdditional Production Supervision: Justin SaylesTheme Song: Bethany Cosentino Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain. Oh, and welcome to Bansplane. I am your host, Yossi Salik. This is usually a show where I invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist. Today's episode is about the filmography of the one and only Madonna. You guys, my guest today?

The esteemed hosts of the Big Picture podcast. Amanda Dobbins. and Sean Fantasy. Thank you so much for joining me here. Thanks for having us. I needed people who understood movies, cinephiles. Sure.

Critics. I don't know if you actually did for this filmography, but that said, I'm thrilled to be here. I want to do some renegotiation of history here. All right. I think people have been wrong and wronged. Interesting. So you're going to reclaim roughly the entire filmography of Madonna?

There's some parts where they were right. Okay. I was having a good time prepping for this. until yesterday morning when I was going through a couple, like, I don't want to deal with that right now. Save it for later. Save it for later. And then I was texting you a little saltily. But that's okay.

I wanted to be a part of Madonna on Bansplain in any way that I could be. And when you do, you have to take it all. I did. Yeah. It's all the good and some of the not so good. Yeah. Not her fault. Madonna innocent, as far as I'm concerned.

My wife, Eileen, wandered into the bedroom last night. night while I was watching who's that girl, which I'm sure we'll talk about. And she was looking at the screen and she said, why did she want to do this? And I don't, she didn't mean this movie. She meant try to become this in addition to what she already had. I have answers. And I figure we'll dig into that. Tell her to tune in to this podcast.

That was what I told her. This is something we're doing here just for now. The gloves or the gloves were Susan. Yeah. Yeah. Why are you going to take them off? I don't know. They're a little, like, hot.

Everything right now is a little hot. I might have to, like, strip down. Are they, they're a little itchy? I mean, I don't know. I think, I'm sure Madonna's were, like, quite higher quality than these that I got from Jeff Bezos's online shop. What's that URL? It's Amazon.com.com. U.K.

Amazon.org. I get a student discount. We talked about this a little bit before on our group text, and I was like, me, wild-eyed. just like my heart open. I was like, we'll do a Hall of Fame. And then I was like, oh. And then you said there's not enough good movies. I mean, she's only made 16 movies as an actress,

so that's not a lot already. Doesn't mean there couldn't have been 10 to make the Hall of Fame. I think even for the greatest actors of all times, if you only had the first 16 to choose from, it'd be tough to build a real hall, right? I think Daniel Day Lewis, which we did a Hall of on the Big Picture, probably is like in the 20s, but it's not, you know, Merrill Street numbers. He was a choosier.

And well, but still, we were like rooting around for 9 and 10. Yeah, he made some dogs too. So he's got that in common with Madonna. Listen, we've all had a checkered creative output. That's what it means to be an artist. If you've only ever made good things, you haven't made enough things, is how I feel. I agree with you. I think about this in the experience of podcasting.

Like everybody has a bad pod, right? Like I've had many a bad pod. The trick is when you know the pot is bad and you can feel it mid-pod, you have to kind of lean into the badness to the badness to make it kind of an active acknowledgement of the ridiculousness of what you're doing. Oh, okay. And I'll say like sometimes it seems that Madonna as a performer is on that wavelength that other times she doesn't, maybe hasn't gotten the memo,

that something isn't going well. Well, I do think it's so different. Not that I have, you know, a huge amount of experience. with filmmaking, although you know that I have directorial experience. Yes. We do know that. You don't always know. You don't always know until the end. Sometimes you do. And sometimes

you're like, well, I thought this was going to be great. And then you're like, oh man, this is bad. I hope as the director like over time, you do know and you learn. But as the actor in a film, you don't always have full control over the production or everything's

going on or even how you're going to be used or what take they're going to pick. So we'll give her the benefit of the doubt, at least until Filth and Wisdom. And W.E. Or we? W.E. is what we're calling it, right? I think W.E. Yeah. I didn't see Philth and Wisdom.

That's, like, the one that I missed. I'm sorry. I think it's an interesting challenge for any pop star when they try to make this pivot because no one tells you the truth as we learned in Charlie XX as the moment. It's very hard to find a good confidant who can tell you, like, This movie's not going well, or maybe you should do this, and that can be shared with honesty, sincerity, and trust and vulnerability. And that's why a lot of times this sort of thing goes very badly for pop stars. It's a very hard pivot to make.

Does that happen to you now, too, because you're so famous? Do you feel like Jack Sanders won't give it to you straight anymore? I feel like I'm constantly being told what an idiot I am. So that's not an issue for me. You have Amanda to be like, that's my job, yeah. Okay, no, okay, I can't do it anymore. Okay, we made it for us. I was repping for Mickey Mouse, though.

Well, you know, I felt inspired by your trip to Disneyland yesterday with Alice. And also, I have maybe four to seven Mickey Mouse T-shirts, and I find that they look good on me. You're pro-Micky? Yeah, of course. You're writing for Disney and Amazon on this discussion thus far. I'm a techno-fascist, and everyone knows that about me. I work at Spotify, as do you guys. Here we all are.

How should we do this? Should we take it from the top? Let me ask you this. Did she always want to be an actress? Was that always? Yes. It was, right? Yes.

So when she was, at first a dancer, that was her, like, primary thing. And then when she moved to New York City in the late 70s, she was dancing. And when she got a little, I think she got a little over dancing after a while. And she started to do music and acting at the same time. She was going to, like, you know, backstage magazine auditions and stuff. stuff, which is how we end up with the film a certain sacrifice, which I didn't see. Did you guys watch it? I did watch it.

How was it? It was quite raw. And clearly, like, an independent film and kind of an exploitation film and a bit upsetting at times. I've seen clips of it, but I didn't sit down and watch a little bit. Interesting artifact of sort of, like, what you do when you're not quite at the seat of power, you know, but want to have. And, you know, she, I'm sure you've talked about this on other episodes, but she exists

in this interesting terrain of, like, She's kind of this like outsider artist, but also pursuing the highest levels of pop stardom. Yeah. And her background in New York and downtown and in the dance and club scene, it feels like it's happening kind of concurrently to the punk rock scene. So there's something about this being like the safe haven or refuge for a certain kind of life lifestyle point of view. Madonna was in like post-punk bands. She dated the guy Michael Jira from Swans. Right.

Like she was actually much more in that world than I think. people understand her give her credit for. But this was, it was like filmed... This was filmed so long ago, it was 79. Right. The man ran out of... Totally. And then it comes out, like, in 85, once she's...

Because the man ran out of money. Yeah. And the film was, like, basically never completed. But I think once Madonna was a star, he was like, oh, we better capitalize on this. It reminded me of, do you remember the scene from Notting Hill where Julia Roberts shows up at Hugh Grants's house with the blue door? because some pictures that she, like, did when she was, like, young and broke are published in the tabloids, and it makes it look like she did a, you know, which happened to Madonna as well. Right.

Exactly. With Playboy. Yes. And Pan House. So it's, you know, but it was of that moment. It's also, look, I'll say, again, I've seen the, like, relevant scenes. I respect you guys for taking in the full, the cinema of it. Just like she said, I think, about her Playboy shots, because she did nude modeling, too, to make money.

she was like, I'm not ashamed. And I don't think that, you know, I don't think she was ashamed of it. If anything, I think she might have been ashamed of how poor the film turned out, but not that she was, like, nude in it. I mean, there's just, like, a really upsetting rape sequence in the movie

that you would do differently, I think, if you had a little bit more agency at that time in her career. It's also pretty fucked up because somewhere in that time frame, like, I don't know if it was, before or after the filming of that, but within like a year, Madonna was raped in New York and she just talked about this publicly.

So that kind of adds like this whole like extra layer of horror to that situation. She does, you know, have rape scenes later in her acting career as well. I think it's more just like this is kind of a grungy exploitation movie and it's not really handled very sensitively. Yeah. I don't, that movie probably should never have come out with respect to or maybe. Maybe not respect to the filmmaker. All right, let's talk about a movie that I always saw for the first time the other day,

which is 1985's Vision Quest. Okay. And you did the whole thing. We used to be a proper country is what I just needed to say about that. What a film? What a movie. Wow. So what was keeping you from Vision Quest all these years?

It just never occurred to me to watch it. I don't know. I knew about it because of the songs, but. Right. I feel like Matthew Modena is giving a little Sean Fentz. Did you feel that when you're watching it? It's huge news. Has people told you that.

We share the New York Knicks. Obviously, one of the all-time Nix fans, Matthew Boney. You have like a similar like smirkiness. Yes. I see it. Matthew Dene is another one where he obviously, he peaks mid to late 80s. And so I like came of watching age like slightly later. And so I never really caught up on everything.

I mean, I've seen Vision Quest many years ago. But it wouldn't have occurred to me that you, yeah, I can see it. I say thank you. It's a wonderful film. Linda Fierantino, one of the hottest women to ever exist. I believe it's her first film. Playing a very similar part to the part she plays in After Hours too, where she's like an aspiring kind of avant-garde artist.

Totally. I loved it. This is not really a Madonna movie, but it's notable in the sense that it's her first real appearance in an actual film that isn't like a weird downtown arts stuff film. And it sets a template that is present in the rest of the career. which is just her doing a musical performance in a cinematic setting, which is sometimes the best way to use Madonna.

I think if people are going to use Madonna, often they want that to. Until she has enough power to say I'm not doing that anymore, you know, which does happen later. I think it's an artifact of its time for sure, but it's also like it's directed by Harold Becker. It's written by Daryl Ponickson who wrote the last detail. Like it's got some class to it as well. I just like that kind of like simple sports movie about pushing for your dreams. You know, it just warms my heart. And also, we don't get a lot of wrestling content.

Jake Ryan, whatever that actor's real name is, so hot. He plays chooch. Is that his name? Is it Michael Shuffling? Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, great, in it. Cosplaying as a Native American. Can we situate Madonna in 85?

Yeah, she's... Second album? Yeah, we are second album has come out. Yeah. and is doing gangbusters, babe, like multi-times platinum. So that's like a virgin. That's like a version.

She filmed this a little prior to that. Okay. Because I was going to say, this is kind of a weird, like little bitty thing to be doing. Yeah. Because she is on MTV running shit by this point. Like she is at the center of controversy.

But this is filmed in like 83. So she hadn't, she had like her first album had come out. The singles were rolling out. And she gets this like small part. thanks to John Peters, who was her producer famously. Welcome back to him.

The greatest thing about this movie in terms of Madonna is crazy for you. It was a song she wrote for the film, which is one of the best Madonna songs of all time, and The Gambler, which is a little bit forgettable. There's a hilarious episode of The Rwatchables about Vision Quest featuring Ryan Rissilo encouraged people to check that out.

Was Ryan Rissolo a wrestler? I don't think so. Do you mean despite his physique? Yeah, I could see that. I wasn't commenting on his physique. That's just for him to do. Yeah. It's a personal pride. Wow, so there is a chance that rewatchable is Desperally Seeking Susan featuring Yossi Sal Lake is in the future.

I'm not really empowered to make that call. Do you think Bill is a fan of desperately seeking Susan? I don't know. I mean, how could you not be? How could you not be? It's a wonderful movie. But yeah, that's why it makes no sense. But they like they bet on the right horse. Because then when it comes out, it's like she's like the biggest star, one of the three biggest stars in the world.

It's Michael Jackson, Prince and Madonna kind of dominates. all of 1985. I haven't seen this in a long time like Amanda, and so I think I probably just forgot she was even in it. It doesn't feel like a notable part of the movie, really. It's not. I just want to talk about because I hadn't seen it.

You do the work. I did it. Well, I certainly, some things I didn't do the work, but okay, let's talk about my fucking, my heart, desperately seeking Susan. Sean, I know you've gone on record that you don't think women should make films, but don't you feel that this is sort of

something that goes against your personal beliefs about that? I never did it and I never will say that. And in fact, I continue to platform female voices on a consistent basis throughout my career. You almost do you're too much where it's like the lady dot protest too much. Oh, so you're platforming us right now? No. Oh, okay, that's how it is. No.

Sean did actually platform me. Sorry I have to say. There you go. No, I mean, Susan Sidelman, one of the most interesting, important directors in the 1980s. this is kind of her rising to the mainstream. Why don't we get more movies like this? I don't know. If Madonna wasn't in this movie,

I wonder what the legacy of it would be. That's true. Because even though she is, you know, effectively a side character who doesn't really have like a tremendous amount of influence, like it's a Roseanne Arquette's movie, right? Yeah. It's not a huge arc that she has.

And she's also used perfectly where she doesn't have to carry any of the dramatic tension No. She just has to be herself, which is incredibly charismatic. And she brings an energy and she's also an object of fascination to the characters in the movie, which she does so naturally. I mean, that is her greatest gift in pop music and movies and just in life. So it uses her really well. Part of the reason we don't get this is because this is like a deeply 80s of its like moment movie in a great way. It's like when I think about like, oh, wouldn't it have been fun to be, you know, in New York or thereabouts in the 80s. with all of these people, you know, before New York got cleaned up, quote, unquote. Yeah. This is what I'm imagining, which is obviously like a very shiny, beautiful cleaned up version of it, even though there are, you know, crimes and mobsters in it. There's mobsters.

Sure, but like... They stole some Egyptian earrings. Yeah, but like everybody, you know, all its stake is in earrings, and you know everyone's going to be fine, and it's just, and it's people living out their dreams. and escaping things in a, like, in a, like, slightly gritty but not scary way. Yeah. So we don't really have, we never had this dream version of the 80s, but part of it is that it's just, it's 2026. I feel like this is like one aspect of what it was like back then, you know, like, I don't think it's, like, untrue in that sense.

It's just, like, doesn't, it's not showing the totality of what it was like to live in New York and the 80s. It's just showing the fun part. I think it communicated to people who were not close to New York what it seemed like New York could be like. I think the lasting legacy of it is like you were just wearing those lace gloves and her style and there's all that incredible imagery of interviews outside of arenas before Madonna played of teenage girls dressing up like her in that time.

The wannabe is. I feel like this was the first look of hers that people really glommed onto and copied and made like, like mega. There probably were other things from the first record that, but because that, because like a Virgin sells like 10 million copies and this is such a massive album.

And she's basically playing herself in the movie and using her own personal style in the movie and then that is like being ported over into the movie into the Rosanna Arquette character. Like this like twinning quality that they have. It's a little bit of a tough beat for Roseanna Arquette though, you know, because she's on the precipice of a certain kind of fame. She kind of gets blotted

out of her own movie because Madonna's getting so famous at this time. Yeah. She is so charismatic. You can't not look at her. Roseina Arcette's amazing. I love her. And she's so great in this part.

And the part is just also not as like covetable. You don't like, she's cute and she's just kind of like. Frustrated housewife. A frustrated housewife was amnesia. You know, like it's not. And I think she was a little upset about it. There's some quotes where she, uh. She's very good in it.

But then Madonna outstrips were in this one. And then this movie, reminds me a lot of or married to the mob reminds me a lot of this movie but that's Michelle Pfeiffer in the Rosanna-Arquette like you know category or character

and it's tough when you're going up against Madonna and then when Michelle Pfeiffer comes to you know eat your lunch three three years later yeah yeah but this is the step two in the after hours triangulation for Madonna where she gets to work with Arquette now

and we'll get to the part three shortly. I just, I love this movie. I think, like you said, Susan Siedelman, but on the right horse with this because I think she wasn't originally, there was some real actresses

that were up for the part. I think Ellen Barkin was one of them. I can't remember the other names. They would have good together, Rose Anarchy. Yeah. They had the same kind of, and Ellen Barkin had also had a real vibe,

a real tractor beam quality back there. Totally. But she, Susan Salleman pushed from Donna because she knew her from like around town and Dan Satria and stuff. and it worked. And this movie made all its money back in like three days because Madonna was so famous. Like to your point, it might not have even been remembered at all if it hadn't have had Madonna.

And particularly if it hadn't had into the groove in it, which is something we talk about in the first Madonna episode. But like that was not meant, that song never lived anywhere originally. It was just a demo floating around that they were going to sell. into the groove, like, on the floor somewhere, being like, we don't need this. The version that lives in the world and is in this movie was a demo. It was recorded in an apartment in the East Village, and they never redid it. So crazy. I mean, good for her.

Yeah. Fantastic. Have you seen smithereens? Yes, I love smithereens. I was going to say, it's a very Yossy-coded movie. Yeah. I think she's just so cool. Also, this is a thing I'm obsessed with, and I should look up their name.

And I didn't catch it until I saw the film again, like, a year or two. ago, because I'd seen a bunch when I was a kid, but I hadn't revisited. There's like a scene where I think it's Rosanna Arquette's character's husband and sister, played by Aunt Jackie from Roseanne, a wonderful actress. Sure. Lori McHath. Yeah, sure. And they're coming to, like, get her out of prison or what, or jail.

And the camera stops and pans across three triplets in exactly the same outfits. Those are the triplets from that documentary. about the triplets that were separated at birth. Really? Isn't that not insane? And I reckon, I was like, oh my God, it's those guys. But that documentary didn't exist yet. So they were just like probably New York fixtures that hung out.

And Susan Seidel. Three identical strangers? Exactly. And they are in desperately seeking Susan. Wow. Isn't that a fun little tit? I screamed when I saw it. There's a million great camey.

John Lurie is in this film. Richard Hell is in this film. Anne Carlyle, Rockets Red Blair. That's great. What happened to Des? Aiden Quinn. Hayden Quinn to me, by the way, is one of the hottest men that's ever existed. Especially in this iteration.

And when I watched it, I was like, you know, I don't think the first time I saw this movie, I really appreciated what was going on there. Hot cinephile works, runs a, runs the thing at a movie theater. Projector. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul. Harry Chess, we don't see that anymore. That doesn't exist anymore. Do you think he's in practical magic too?

I think so. Oh, thank God. Well, he was, you know, Legends of the Fall. I'm not seeing it here on Aidan Quinn's Wikipedia. Tough beat. I'm seeing City from the Sea starring Dominic Cooper or Cry from the Sea. Sorry, City from the Sea. I don't know what that is.

City by the sea is, no, that's just by the sea is the Brad Pitt Angelina film. Challenge film. This goes into something that's just a small through line that doesn't have to do with Madonna that I would love to talk about throughout this, which is that like we don't have men like this in film. anymore. Irish Americans? No, just like a Matthew Mondean is a good example when we get to White guys, what are you saying? No, like Skinny white guys? Not Chad.

Right. Yeah. Skinny white guys. Like a sort of like Thank you, yes. My people. Skinny, but like a little off, like a little unusual. Like Griffin Dunn is a great example when we get to who's that girl. Like these are like really interesting looking and I find them quite attractive. But they're not. used all of them and then... You didn't make any more?

Yeah, then they didn't make any more. They are making any more. That's true. I'm like, not everyone can be Jacob Allorty. Where, can we have some normal guys? Why is everyone six, six and yoked? Right. I don't know.

It's all just Austin Butler. I wake up and I do actually say why is everyone six six and yoked. I don't think Lewis Pullman is kind of a good example. But he is yoked. I just met him and he was large. And Timothy Chalamee is too confident. He's like the closest, at least build wise.

Yeah, he's pretty, though. He's like James Dean, you know? Yeah, yeah. You're talking about this is a sort of like more ordinary guy. Griffin Dunn, I think, is a perfect example. But like we don't. To lead a film. Right.

When's the last time you saw a man like that lead a film? Now they're all just like the S&L boyfriends, you know? They're all S&L writers and married to Emma Stone and... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we've lost something. With that and with everyone fixing their teeth, we've absolutely lost something. I agree. Well, yeah.

I mean, Griffin Dunn in particular, like a lot of imperfections, but just incredibly charismatic and charming person. So, so funny. like can I thought I think can dolly lead a movie some of my favorite films I think you popping up in a lot of her movies for some reason these skinny guys? Over the regular guys

yeah even honestly and I'm this going to sound like even Sean Penn while like obviously a commanding and hot presence highly kind of a fucked up face like an interesting face no he was I mean his you correct me if I'm wrong but I think his attractiveness is born with like a crazy

confidence I mean he's just so in command when he's on screen and feel like he has a secret that no one else is ever going to learn. And so it's a different kind of thing. But you're right that he is like a little unconventional looking. And just we don't, it's like not allowed anymore. And now that we have older Sean Penn and Sean Penn over the decades to watch him again in the 80s, I'm like, you're a little young and a little scrawny.

Yeah. Fully young and trony. Yeah. Not like now. Right. Sure. A piece of hide leather, you know, you really. God bless him.

Again, they don't make him like that anymore. No, he's living hard. He's living real. best friends with Bukowski. Yeah. Like, this guy really, like, lived, he was about that life. He's, you know, ripping American spirits and flying

to Cuba. I mean, he's literally in war-torn countries, like, with his own hands. He was in Haiti and, he was the mayor of, like, an establishment in Haiti to, like, rebuild. He donated his Oscar to Ukraine, to make more bullets. To be melted. Yeah.

I think it's fucking cool. We didn't follow up on that. I don't actually know whether the bullets have been made. You want to know if they've been fired? Have they killed any Russian soldiers? Is that what you're asking? No, I just. I don't, you know, much like Tom Cruise sent his Golden Globes back, but like I never

saw the tracking number. I see. You thought you got the UPS? Yeah. Like, I don't, like I didn't see any smelting. So we don't totally know. It's fair. You think Sean should have made a TikTok?

Is that how you burn things now? By the way, I don't really know. What is smelting? It sounds like it's melting and you can mess up. I'm using the word like I definitely know. That's what you would do to melt down an Oscar into bullets. I don't know. The implication also that they would be gold bowl.

Bullets are Oscars made of gold? No. They can't be, right? They're way too valuable at this point. Gold prices way up there. I see. You want to go back to the gold standard? No, I think many people do.

An Oscar can't be made of gold. I don't think it's actually made of gold. I don't, it's not maybe not even plated. 14-per-old. If that was, they'd be like, oh, sorry. Hair and makeup. Is this what you wanted on Bandsplane? This is everything I always want on Bandsland.

Solid bronze. Okay. Can you, and plated in 24-carat gold, according to AI. Okay, well, gold does not make good bullets as far as I know. I'm not like a weapons expert. I'm happily not an expert on that, nor do I want to be. Sean Penn might be, we should ask him. Okay.

Speaking of Sean Penn. He's got three of them, or he had three until he started smelting them. Well, he's still hot. You can't take them away from him, just he's physically doesn't own them. You mean like emotionally? Just, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a achievement. Smelting is a process of applying heat and a chemical reducing agent to an ore to extract a desired based metal product. I feel like we need to get Jack Sanders to drop in, even though he's not working on this episode.

Science Corner? And engineering. Maybe we should rebrand it to Women in STEM. Yeah, Amanda's Stem Corner. I think it's a little alienating for all the men. You know, I feel like we want to participate. We want to be able to... Are they here listening to this podcast?

Are they in this room? Maybe not on this episode. I believe in my audience. I think they can roll with it. Okay, we are speaking of Sean Penn. Yeah. So we will speak of Sean Penn because the next film. Yep.

It's a tough one. It's Shanghai Surprise, 1986. Sure. I'd never seen this before. I watched this for this episode. I hadn't either. I hadn't either. I can't say I'd read it. I think there's a reason why, right? You know, I watched a documentary last year about handmade films, which was this production company that George Harrison started, which was a great production company. Did they mention? Excuse me? Do they mention Shanghai? Surprise in it? I believe it comes up. I can't remember. There's a lot of time I've spent on

like the Python films and a lot of the more interesting film like with Neil and I was one of my favorite movies of all time you know how to get ahead in advertising the other god what is the actor's name Richard E. Grant yeah I love him they had this kind of I think a Long Good Friday the Bob Hoskins movie was produced by handbag him also they had this incredible stretch of movies of producing British films in the 1980s and Harrison just like bankrolled it it was just his money paying for everything and is he the best beetle do we did we all agree. Well, he had such a cool age.

And this was one of the things that he did. He's the best beetle for you. And I think that that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You are, you are George Coen. I'm not like other girls. But George was super cool. Super cool.

Also love his solo work. And he produced this movie as well and he wrote music for this movie. But I think afterwards he was like no idea. Yeah, exactly. Well, so I had also never seen Shanghai surprise. I knew that it wasn't, I knew there was a reason that I had. seen it. So when I sat down and I was not expecting one of the great works of cinema,

I did not know that George Harrison was a producer on it until the credits started rolling. And I just was like, oh no, George, no, I don't want you, like, you know, wrapped up in this. But his name is in the credits about 14 times. It is. You were five songs for this movie. Okay, this is going to come up for me a bunch of times in Madonna's filmography. Like,

it could have been good. I don't think it could have been like a great work of cinema, but it could have been like a fun time at the movie is, and it's just really not. And that's confusing to me. She, while maybe not like the world's greatest acting performance here, she's so beautiful. Like that made the very, very pretty. That made the watching for me at like doable because she's so stunningly beautiful on camera.

It's just like the blonde hair and the looks and everything. Sean Penn is absolutely phoning it in from 17 states away I believe he was... And they charged for long distance then. They did. I believe he has confirmed that he was drunk almost the entire time. I feel like it's not that he's phoning it in. I feel like he's just off.

He's giving like a very messy performance. They both made some big choices with the characters in terms of their performance styles. And they're going for this kind of... It's very similar to the next movie that we'll talk about where it's a very old-fashioned kind of comedy. Well, that's what she wanted to do, right? She wanted to do like 1930s screwball.

She loved Carol Lombard. That was like her North Star. Which I think is like a great idea. Yeah. And on paper makes a ton of sense. And even to your point, I agree, she looks like very beautiful in Shanghai Surprise. And even in like who's that girl because that styling and that, you know, that era of physical presentation really, really. works on Madonna fits on

what she's playing with in her like music and specifically her tours and it's like a great reference point but they don't have whatever magic it is to bring it and they're also mismatched. I'm going to make an argument that I think who's that girl

is good. I genuinely think it's a good movie and we'll get that. Shanghai Surprise is bad. The performances are not great. There's no chemistry somehow even though you're married to each other I am not buying that you like each other at all. Sean Penn's beard is put on with mascara. Yeah.

I was like, where was the budget for? He looks insane. The story makes little to no sense. Correct. There's high-key racism. It is just... Quite alarming. Yeah.

And I know that this is one where, like, they had a horrible time making it. And, like, it's bad because everyone hated each other besides Sean and Madonna. Like, the crew and the director hated Madonna and Sean. Madonna and Sean hated the crew and the director. It was freezing cold. it was supposed to be summer, so she's always wearing these, like, little dresses. And, like, again, she's not a seasoned actress, so, like, add that to the situation.

Sean Penn, again, drunk. Like, it's just, it's a recipe for disaster. Yeah, I mean, Jim Goddard, the director, like, didn't really make a lot of feature films. You did a lot of British television. Yeah. And so, like, it doesn't really feel like the steadiest hand is there either. Totally. That's what I'm saying, Madonna Innocent.

Also, I feel like they could have put a few other, like, bigger actor or better actors in it. They're not, they're supporting cast is. amazing either, you know? There's some familiar folks, like Victor Wong, who's in a ton of Carpenter movies in the 80s and is really funny. Like, he's a kind of actor who fits this tone well. You know, Paul Freeman, who's the bad guy from Rid was the Lost Ark. There's some memorable British figures here.

It's just like this movie and Who's That Girl, both, are totally doing the thing you're describing where she's trying to do a Carol Lombard, kind of like ditsy blonde that's smarter than everybody else's move. But that feels a little bit closer to Judy Holiday movie. to me from the 1950s. And the reason those characters are the way that they are is like that that was a kind

of contemporaneous style of performance and she's trying to bring a very old fashioned performance style which she really loves and admires and put it into, this is a period piece, but the pacing is more modern and then who's that girl?

It's a contemporary movie. And you're like, why are you acting like somebody who was born in 1908? And it's never really explained, you know? Like we're just kind of hoping that her charisma will carry.

Well, I thought, okay, so I'll say, I think who's that girl work. I think that people are like unfairly harsh on it. I think it is absolutely super fun. I think Griffin Dunn is amazing. I think the story is interesting.

It's just like to me like a fun 80s movie that like has all the best parts of like what I like about this kind of film where they're like, oh, we don't have CGI. We trained a panther and we put diamonds around it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Its name is Murray. I think the screwball Carol Lombard thing she's doing here

works a lot better than the Shanghai Surprise one because it is closer to who she is, at least, like, stylistically. And she's just being, it's not a real person. It's not supposed to, like, she's a cartoon character, you know? Right. And it's kind of charming to me. I don't know, some people would put off by it, but, like, it's a very nice, like, it's a very old trope, right? Like, the, like, manic pixie insane woman and this, like, stayed, like, lawyer who's, like,

trying to do the right thing. I thought it was, I thought, I really liked it. I don't understand why it was so. I think Shanghai's surprise. as ill will bled into this film. That's how I feel. Yeah, I wish who's that girl

were really, really good. And I don't dislike it. I like it. But it is borrowing, you know, I like Madonna, really love all those screwball comedies. This, in the Panther has a direct reference to bringing a baby, which is probably my favorite of

the old-time romantic comedies. And it, you know, it's a similar structure of daffy all. the wall, a woman coming in to disrupt the state social structure of, you know, of a man. Yeah. And the problem is that the Madonna movie and then the Griffin Dunn movie, again, they're just in different movies. And it is supposed to be like sort of a world colliding or like a two fish out of water being flipped structure, but they don't ever actually meet. You know, they're almost like just acting against each other on split screens.

And that's why, I don't know. I like the two halves of the movie. They don't meet. And that's what makes me sad about it. I think it's a really hard tone to hit correctly. And it's, so James Foley directed the movie. He directed a bunch of really good movies. But not here.

He had only done the Sean Penn movie. At close range, yes. And I wonder if that's why he got this job. He did. had just worked with Sean Penn. So the kind of the context here, which is interesting, is Madonna's extremely powerful now. And this is a Warner Brothers film, and she's a Warner Brothers artist. So she got this film made, like a wholesale.

She got the script. She chose James Foley as the director because that was Sean's best friend. And she trusted him. He had done a couple of her music videos at this point, too. She changed the name of the film. It was supposed to be called Slammer. And she, like, was writing music. And she's like, that doesn't work for a song.

I wrote Who's That Girl. This movie is called Who's That Girl. And they were like, Warner Brothers was like, whatever you want, babe. You're one of our biggest artists. Yeah, it's just if you look at, I really, really like James Foley. He directed Glenn Garragal. He directed After Dark My Suite. He's kind of in, he's kind of like a subfincher.

He was friends with Fincher. And he worked on House of Cards. And, you know, Fincher obviously is a huge figure in the Madonna image making history, which I'm sure we'll get into a little bit. And he didn't make any movies that were even. Not a drop like who's that girl Like every movie he made was a hardboiled throw Yeah it was probably just like a bad

Like she wanted him because she felt comfortable But perhaps this is not his Wheelhouse yet But it's like not anyone specifically's fault It's just like sometimes the The cream doesn't rise You know and this one just kind of feels like it's just like Unfinished I will say Havelin Morris who plays

Griffin Dunn's fiancee is like one of my all-time movie crushes She's also in Gremlins too And she's the blonde from 16 Candles But I love her as a red-olynous bedhead. Of course you do. Of course, yeah. She's great.

And also the little subplot of her is like so great. I just, I get it. It's not a wonderful movie, but I think it was very harshly criticized. Like, it was just, it was like just a fine normal movie that wasn't as bad as people made it out. Right. I just think they were, they were like taking on the Shanghai subpoena. But it's also, so.

It wasn't amazing. Madonna in 87. Yeah. Where are we? We have put out True Blue, which is a fucking smash. It's like 11 times platinum. She's married to Champagne. That's what True Blue is about.

Okay. She's huge. She'd done live aid. You know, like, she's a massive, massive star. Right. So is any of it just that, you know, she's, like doing these things on the side. Oh, I'd forgotten Lived Tettel was in at close range. I totally forgot about that.

Yes. We didn't talk about it because she's not in it. Right. Lived to tell also a fun. She wrote it, like, it was supposed to be a song for a different movie. And then she, her collaborator brought her daughter, and she, like, I was like, oh, we can put it in James's movie. She wrote the lyrics in, like, five minutes. And that was it.

True Blue is. crazy. One of the best albums of all time. Is it like a little like stick to music? You know? Okay, that's what I was going.

I think it's a hundred percent that's being like, oh, like you can't do it. Like, Madonna gets this her whole career. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's never just like on the basis of what she's doing.

It's like, don't get too big for your britches. I think also don't try to be a movie star too. I think post Papa don't preach she takes on a very like fiery valence in the culture, right? So like every time she does something, people are like, hold on.

Maybe not this. nude photos have come out because they come out right after LiveAid and that was like a huge scandal that she has like 18 pages of nude photos, which by the way are like so tasteful. They're for art class. You know? Yeah. Do you have them at home right now? No. I've seen them though.

And like a virgin was incredibly scandalous. That performance, you know? Yeah. I think Annie Lennox called her like a horror or something. Like it was like really it was all everything she's doing. That Annie Lennox wants to take that one back. Yeah. But that was.

I mean, here's. the thing with Madonna. I remember this very well because my mom was a huge pop star fan and she hated Madonna. Really just hated her. Oh no. My mom didn't really hate a lot. So it was always very memorable to me that she was

just not into it. And I think that there was something about people who were raised Christian who like Madonna just got under their skin and that she was trying to provoke them to call her a slut. Like that was like a thing that Madonna very, I think, can't very wisely.

She was playing with. She was like confronting people with their discomfort. I think, yes, but I think like, also very funny how different. My mother was obsessed with Madonna and that's why it's like the first artist I was ever aware.

I was like raised only knowing Madonna music. But I think her thing was that she was very authentically entrenched in religion herself. She was raised very Catholic. And so what she was doing was working out her own stuff and it just happened to really trigger some other people. Of course, she's very savvy. she knows what she's doing.

Yeah. She was very good at getting a reaction. Like a prayer. But she wasn't doing it inauthentically. She was getting a reaction while working out her own art. But she is also, at some point, like, the machine becomes self-aware. Not that Madonna is always very self-aware, but she's doing it a little on purpose by the time you get to like a prayer, which is when I logged on and my family logged on. And I remember Madonna being one of the great early taboos that I was just absolutely obsessed with.

and then being told, like, well, do you know what, like, a prayer is really about? And, you know, all the way. And you were, like, a six and you're like oral sex. Low jobs. It's actually not. It's about religious ecstasy, but sex-war ecstasy. She's trying to provoke. That's part of her artistry.

This is, like, was I raised by wolves? Because my parents were like, this is fine. We love Madonna. You can have, like, the Madonna naked smoking poster on your wall. They were like, we're going to watch, like, one of the best. We're going to watch. I don't remember. It wasn't they.

They sold that poster Tower Records. And I was like, How is this legal? It might not have been. It might have been smut. My parents let me watch like full R-rated. I think we watched Basing Instinct together. I think it was like 10.

Like my parents were just not, so whatever reason, like, it didn't. It was an outlier for me that my mom was not into it. I was not allowed to watch R-rated movies too. You know, it was a fairly permissive experience. I think she just, something got under her skin about her. And I do think that that's kind of,

that's been true of Madonna for decades. I think that's part of why she's one of the most important artists of our lifetime because she made people, think in a way that pop music hadn't done before. She pushed people to have to like reconsider things and whether that meant they didn't agree or agreed. Like that wasn't really happening much with pop, especially female pop musicians before that, you know?

Yeah. Love her. I read my ride or die. Who's that girl innocent? Love who's that girl? Okay. James Foley probably would rather forget. Also, did you notice Stanley Tucci is in the movie for like one second?

He doesn't speak. I did not notice that. He's the other dock worker. Or maybe he does talk. He's the, when they get the panther or the wildcat or whatever. All right, Bloodhounds of Broadway, 1989. Directed by Howard Brookner. Were you familiar with Howard Brookner's work?

No. He didn't do a lot because he died before this film even came out. He had done a couple of things before, and one was a documentary about William S. Burroughs. He was kind of part of the Andy Warhol crowd, so Madonna knew him from. I've seen Burroughs the doc. Yeah, it's a good film. He was great. And he already had AIDS while they're making this film.

And he basically like went off of medication because it was so important for him to just finish the film. And he finished it, but he died before it came out. Also, I think it was pretty heavily recut. This is a black and white film based on four Damon Runyon stories. Sure. Yeah. I would say it applies to this. my general theory on short stories,

which is, you know, write a novel. I love short stories. But maybe don't make a film. Yeah. Unless it's forward. They're not totally, they don't come together. I just found it hard to follow. I was like, I'm not, it's really hard for me.

Maybe it's my diminished attention span, but I was like, I'm not totally sure what's going on here. Who is that again? Why are, he sold his feet to the scientist to pay his gambling debt? I didn't revisit this. seen us before for the episode. You remember Randy Quaid selling his feet to science. I don't.

I remember. You understand. You've done that yourself. I remember Rutger Hauer trying to do 1920s New York comedy. You know, like old style gangster comedy. Yeah. And to me, it's like for Madonna's purposes, it's the same problem that these other movies have, which is like she keeps trying to be a comic actress instead of an actress who

can bring comic levity to dramatic circumstances. which she figures out later in her career. But trying to be like the funny dame, which is the persona she keeps going for. I don't know if she was trying to do that. That's what she was into. Yeah. Well, yeah.

I mean, she's picking the parts. You said she's got all this power. You're right. And it's interesting that she keeps being led to this because to me, it feels like the cultural inverse of what makes her such an interesting presence as a musician. Right. Where she is like kind of on the cutting edge of something, or at least it feels like it.

Or, you know, there's much discourse about how much she was sort of adopting other cultures. and shooting what they had built through her prism. But this is all this like old-fashioned stuff that it's cool that you like it, but there's nothing really modern about what she's trying to do with it. And so I think these movies, these kind of early stage films, all have like kind of lousy reputations because it's like she's trying on clothes that don't quite fit her. Yeah. I mean, the only thing I like about this, but it's not like terrible.

It's fine. I watched it. I was like, oh, Matt Dillon. She did it at like scale because she loved this director and his work and it was kind of like a favor, I think, which is quite kind, you know? And I think she was at his bedside when he died. That stuff is nice, you know? I don't think she's like, this is my proudest moment as an actress. And I don't think this is her proudest moment as an actress either, 1990s Dick Tracy.

Sean, speak on it. Well, I've worked on me. Yeah. She's great at it. She's good. She's, you know, it is the best use of her. trying to recreate 30s, 40s, you know. You know why?

Because the whole, the movie is not just reheating it. It is a, it's an adaptation of a comic book, but it's also referencing a lot of noir from, and knows how it is using the references and knows how it is using her and puts her in a position to succeed. I think it's just that she, this character has like a sinister, not the right word, a transgressive streak, which so does Madonna, and it really works here.

Whereas I don't, these characters before where she's trying to be this sort of like 30s thing didn't quite have that like darkness. Yeah. And she has that. So it like works kind of perfectly here. Yeah, I totally agree. I think it's her realizing that instead of Carol Lombart

she should be trying to be Barbara Stanwick, that like there's a femme fatale quality to Madonna, that she's so alluring and she seems so intelligent that that that is the, That's the archetype for the femme fatale. You need an actress who conveys a kind of like sensuality and an allure to a dumb guy to kind of bring this guy into your web and then spin the web around him and get what you really want. And she as like a popular figure, I think, sometimes communicated that really well.

And Warren Beatty knows a thing or two about getting spawned in a web, you know, like he... Or spinning a web. Well, yeah. They spun each other a little bit. Do you think of femme fatale also has a quality of... vulnerability or is that not part of the character? I think she brings it in this. I think that might be a little bit of a flaw of the movie is that it's trying to be a little

too PG at times and so the movie doesn't really totally follow through on some of its more kind of noir shading. It's trying to have what Amanda was saying. It's trying to be both. It's trying to be this comic strip thing and it's also trying to be a really hard-boiled story. It's trying to have guys with like lots of weird makeup and funny names but also people being shot in cold blood. I don't know, I love this movie

because when I was eight when this came out, I saw in theaters and I was like the colors and the comic book stylings and, you know, the dashing quality. Like I didn't realize that Beatty was way too old for the movie when I saw it. I was like, that guy's cool. You know, I couldn't really read it.

And so it just kind of sits inside a very nostalgic place for me. But Breathless Mahoney is probably along with Jessica Rabbit, one of those like activating agents in my mind of like, what am I drawn to? What am I attracted to? And she is, she's, even though she's riffing on something that happened 50 years earlier For me it was the first time I ever saw it

Right, right and it is a riff rather than just a X-Rox copy Which is what makes it successful That's like when I saw a material quote video And I was like, this is gentleman prefer bombs Because I don't have never seen that film And this is what that is now I don't know what that is but this is that No, same thing

Warren Beatty a little too old Or in the same time where you could get actors of this caliber To like put on like insane ways prosthetics and look like full clown show and come and do like Al Pacino looking like that. Nuts. Yeah, it was an amazing act of autorship. Yeah. At what point does their relationship start?

Is it before filming during, after? Like, are they... It's before filming. Okay. Just before. It's basically like right after she divorces Sean Penn. Okay. And gets cast in this and then they pick up.

It's kind of like, from what I read that was like Warren Beatty's sort of like thing. Like he would like I mean I yeah he had many things But I believe that that was one of them 13,000 is what the book I read said So they're dating Madonna has talked about this That she had a horrible time making this movie

That Warren Beatty would like sort of push The scenes too far And like there's like some She has some memories of like Al Pacino like really like laying into her And and Warren Beatty being like Again again until she like started fully actually crying on set

which is actually really crazy thing about because that's what Al Pacino looked like while he was doing it. Also, she said that he insisted that she gained 10 pounds and would take her to the costume store and kept being like tighter, tighter, cut it lower and she was like, I felt like a piece of meat. Like she didn't have a nice,

she didn't have a nice time making the film. Okay. She also did this for scale because she wanted the part so bad but she negotiated a percentage of the proceeds of the film and the soundtrack. She made quite a bit of money in the end because she's very smart. Very smart. Good job.

Movie was a big hit. Big hit. And one small important thing is that for just the Madonna arc is that because three of the songs she has to sing in the film are the Stephen Sondheim songs, she had to get a vocal coach. Oh. And so this is like the first iteration of her sort of elevating her voice to another level. Okay. Because she had to, like, she couldn't. The rhythmic changes and like the melodic changes of Stephen Sondheim songs were like so complicated.

that she needed help to do that. She needed a different training. Yeah, and then she made her inspired by songs. This is not technically a film in the sense of it being a movie, but I think we have to talk about truth or dare. No, that is a film. It's not like a scripted. It is a future documentary.

I just say that because this is probably the only one we're going to talk about. She made a couple more of these, but they're right. Yeah, they're good. If you want to see your boy Guy Ritchie, he's in the next one after this. I want to tell you a secret. This is a great movie. I think this is the greatest music documentary. I agree.

This is absolutely classic. And I did a similar thing where I did all of the, when we do these big rewatching projects, I save something special for the very end. And so I went out with some friends, had several drinks and then came home and was like, I'm watching Truth or Day are in full. And it was, I mean, it's a delay.

I was so jealous. I was like, I should have done that. I should have done. I think it's a perfect blend of like stage management. moments, real moments, and performance footage. Like the blend of those things where like there's something she wants to accomplish that she's kind of

performing for the camera. There's other moments where you're like these people are clearly just hanging out. And the fact that they're hanging out means you're getting this ferrette gold. And then I think a lot of the performance stuff from the tour is really, really good. It's really, really, really. And you're seeing her kind of, this is

really her, I think, at the height of her powers. She's got like a 10-year catalog. She is the biggest pop star in the world. she's a better dancer and like stage show person, I think, maybe than I had remembered. She's a trained dancer. She's an athlete. Like, once you start watching, you're like, this is an incredible feat that she can do this. But there's not a lot of, God, how to frame this?

Like, this is before the kind of boy band and Britney craze where those people were sort of like dancers first in some ways before being vocalists. But it's not quite, you know, like Whitney Houston couldn't do this. You know, like there's kind of a middle ground here where. She has some vocal chops. She's never, like, best known for that, but she has so many good songs at this point. She's got, like, 12 or 14 songs. You're like, I desperately need to hear this tonight. And she's just, her and her crew of dancers are so good that it's just so visually compelling and great material for a concert video doc.

As opposed to, like, watching the Eagles perform or something where you're like, oh, guys playing guitar. This is the tour that I think created the blueprint for all pop tours going forward. Like this was not a thing, really, or, like, you'd have multiple worlds and, like, all these, like, costume changes. And there was, like, an art to it where you're, it was theater, you know? Like, this was very Madonna sort of, like, minted that. She had done it a little bit up to here, but this is when she had money and ability to do it. Right, and resources. She was, she wasn't the first person to use the wireless mic.

That was Kay Bush, actually. But she made it, like, a thing. Like, people called it the Madonna mic. Yeah. So she could move it. and go freely. I thought it was really interesting that this was supposed to be

directed by David Fincher. Yes. But he was hired to do David Alien 3. Okay. Interesting sliding door. I think, as much as I love David Fincher, I'm a big Dave Stan

over here, I don't think it would have been as good if he had made it. Do you completely disagree? I don't, I just, I think that, I think Madonna had a different relationship with him, which would have yielded. She was, like,

impressed by him and sort of, maybe even a little Intimity. Yeah. So I don't know if you get the candor of all of the... That's what I'm saying. And I think they might have had a very intimate relationship. You know what I mean? And I just think it would have been so different.

And the kid that she hired was like 23 years old. Alex Cichin. Yeah. She had been... She's so good at this. Like one of her greatest skills Madonna is identifying collaborators and plucking them from like very early on. She had seen his senior thesis at Harvard, which was like a pop opera version of Wuthering Heights.

Okay. Cool. Which actually was going to be made at some point, and there's Rain, Madonna's Rain song, was for that adaptation that never got made. But anyways, and she was really intimate. She'd been following his career, and so when David Fincher couldn't do it, she was like, I want that guy. Which is an incredible leap of faith for... But so when it starts, is it just the concert doc?

No, they did want to make a concert doc, and then she was like, no, that was going to be on HBO. Got it. Okay. It was kind of a regular document. And then she was like, I want to do something totally different. So the HBO is like, no. There was an HBO, a totally separate HBO concert film that was like an incredibly huge hit. So then she has Alex Kachshian, who's like, I want a film, which I think works so incredibly well, having the black and white and the color be like the BTS is black and white.

The concert footage is color and putting in these two different worlds. But New Line Cinema was like, we're not paying for anything in black and white. And they pulled their money. and so Madonna funded it with her own money $4 million. Well, good job. Good job. I mean, so many iconic moments.

Obviously, Kevin Costner, that was neat. That was really neat. You know, just like, oh. Good shit. But also just a really good snapshot of Costner at that moment and what the 90s were like. She apologized to him publicly at a concert many years later. What does she do?

Sure. Yeah. I mean, she's right in the moment. She was like, I'm literally up there, like, bearing my soul. And you called it neat. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, also just like read the room, sir, which, you know, I don't know other Kevin Kockner could do then or now. Just like corny white guys be corny.

You know, what's he going to pretend to be cool? It's not cool. It made a great moment in the film. It did. At the very beginning when she's giving, when the sound isn't working. And she's like, if we can't get someone up here to fix the sound, I'm not doing the show, which I think about a lot. I'm like, I need extreme Amanda energy in there. And then paved the way for Beyonce, what is the point of giving more notes until I see my notes?

until I see my notes applied, you know? But this is it all started. Madonna, choose, or dare. I found it very inspiring. Sure. I've been trying to bring more of that into my life. How do you accomplish greatness? Yeah.

You don't actually see that much live footage of women of any kind giving feedback. Sure. So, and this is where it started. Yeah. It's great. She busts her ass to make this thing and there's her mic cuts out. I will fucking burn this place down. Yeah.

So that's at the beginning. But then there's the mic that. cuts out during the show. And they're just like, well, we don't have any answers. And she's like, but the, she just, like, why? Why is this happening? This way. She's not mean. She's just kind of.

She's direct. Yeah, it keeps asking. I really appreciated it. The dancers are incredible. They were cast, I think, specifically for their personalities. So you see that kind of shine through. This is one of the first, I mean, this is a hallmark of Madonna's career in general. Like, we said it on the first episode, but she was the first person to distribute printed material about safe sex in relation to AIDS before the government, like a full year before

the government. But like showing gayness in a film like this in this way where like not only was it shown, it wasn't the point. Like it wasn't like, oh, we're making a big deal out of it. It's just people are gay and that's part of what happens in life. It was so major. And I know to a lot of young gay men who saw this like really important. Yeah.

I think she was an incredibly inclusive performer who already, I think, in some ways very fortunately for her because she was so comfortable being confrontational, never worried about people saying like, oh, well, this is for these people or this is for that. Like she felt very comfortable bringing it in. I think that both the safe sex and queer identity and its relationship to pop stardom, she's like probably the central figure in that story from a pop culture perspective. And I think we're all the age, too, where all of those things, we all felt like maybe more comfortable. I think we were scared out of doing a lot of things because of some of the way things were communicating to us. But also we felt like very situated and more comfortable culturally around those ideas because there were these sort of avatars who were showing it in a way that it had really not been shown in a cultural way at such scale in the 70s or even the early 1980s. So, you know, I don't know if she claims credit for something particularly, but she. kind of makes the world like just a tiny little bit safer for some of this stuff because of the incredible platform that she had.

And she just wouldn't be talked out of it. Another great scene is when I believe it's in Toronto where the police show up and are like, we're going to arrest you if you perform like a virgin with the masturbation. And she's told this by her brother. And she's like, so what is that? Like, what are they going to do? They're going to like book me. And she's like, how are we defining masturbation? and she's like taking it seriously

but also is like you shouldn't have told me like I'm going to do it I don't care I found that part really savvy too because I think that's probably one of the parts that was a little more manufactured yeah but it's only 35 years ago that it's like indecency laws in Canada are potentially threatening her ability to do what she wants It was still anti-sodomy laws in like 30 states at this point

you know like yeah it's also just no one's ever looked more beautiful in the history of the world than Madonna looks at this time in her career in this just one of the best. One of the, like, more controversial moments, but, like, now that I've seen it a couple times, I feel like I've, like, come around to a different person I don't want to, is the part with her hairstylist. Do you remember this part where she comes and says she was drugged?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Why is it controversial? Because she was raped and everyone kind of laughs. Oh. It's, like, a very awkward, like... Yeah, but Madonna is, like, we need to figure out what happened, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. initial reaction.

Sure. But then like it's so authentic because that's what it really is like when something like that happens. Like it's not a after TV movie or whatever where like everyone is suddenly like, oh my God. Let's call the police. Let's get a rape kit. It's like nobody knows what to do with the information. So the more times I've watched it, I've been like, wow, it's incredible.

They left that in because it is so real. Anyway, it's just one of the greatest things that's ever existed. I like it when all the moms come to visit. When the dad who hadn't seen him He hadn't seen in like five years Comes to visit with it. It's so nice. Grame, truth or dare is iconic. Do you think it's her best movie?

Yes. I was thinking about this last night when I was watching it. With her in the center. I didn't finish it last night, unfortunately. Oh, that's your loss. Well, I had a 14-hour day at Disneyland, so, you know. I don't, well, we choose our choices. I'm not going to disrespect for a film career like that,

and I'm going to say no, because this is a document. Henry and she's had some great films. Okay, let's find them. I'm gonna say it. Shadow's in fog. It's not this one. No. 1999.

I actually had not seen this one, so I did watch it. I liked it. It was fine, but when we started talking about Bloodhounds of Broadway, I was like, wait, this isn't the Woody Allen one. She keeps doing this. Not her best performance.

She's in a tricky spot. She's barely even in it. Only a couple of scenes, right? She's up against Malcovich. Malcovich, really just the god. And, like, they don't have chemistry. No. She's trying to do another old-fashionedy thing.

Yeah. And he's doing his kind of, like, flip, removed Malcovic thing. I don't know. He's doing like, do these people ever fuck? Like, they didn't. He's in a play. She's in the circus. I don't know what's happening there.

Yeah. I mean, once again, Carnies, I sort of turned off. Yeah, that's not your thing. Yeah, no, my thing. Is it kind of a nice. Are you into carnivals? No. Circuses?

Well, carnival performers are fascinating people. Yeah. You know, I'm very interesting. I love freaks. Okay. So I think maybe yes is the answer. Let me put it another way. I don't like theater kids.

Nightmare Alley, Guillermo del Toro. I've not seen it. Okay. You should check it out. You might like it. Okay. Is it about a monster who just wants to be loved? Yes, but the monster is a carty played by Bradley Cooper.

Oh. Yes, that's right. It's a remake of a 1940s. Yeah. Okay. Is he like the ugly man or something? No, he's handsome. They let him stay handsome, right?

Sort of. Well, but, you know. material rates over time. Exactly. I'll check it out. He's like a, what's the word? Not a medium, but, um, a mentalist. He's a mentalist, but then things take a turn.

Keith Planchett has a very beautiful art deco office. Okay. I'll check it out. I think it's a wonderful movie. Yeah. I think it's, I think you're right. Now that you've made me think about it, I do like Carnies. I think it's better than, than this Woody film.

Than Shadows and Fogg. I agree with that. This is a very small, little nothing. I can see the appeal of just she wants to be in a Woody Allen movie. Yeah. And this is, it's just, it's just. like a Woody Allen thing where he's just like, I'm going to make a couple jokes and put my then wife in it. You know, like, I love seeing John Cusack. It's just, it was a fun artifact for me,

but I wasn't like, oh, this is Madonna's best and most memorable. Okay. What about a league of their own, though, 1992? Maybe this is her best movie. Yeah, I think this might be her best movie. It's definitely her best performance and the best integration of Madonna into a movie. She actually has a real character. She gets to be herself. She gets to be funny and because it's set during World War II it is kind of like that throwback you know, old Hollywood era.

She's very funny. She has great chemistry with Rosie O'Donnell. Are they friends? Does this start the friendship? That's so beautiful. She's dating vinyl ice at the time, just a fun. Oh, okay. Well, you know. Rob van Winkle. Famously featured in the sex book. Yeah, that's why because they were dating. along with Big Daddy Kane

They were not dating but he's in that Hard to not be in love with her in this movie I mean she's the best May is the best Also I remember seeing this movie in theaters With my mom And me being like mom Come on you know

She's so good Your mom is still carrying the hatred She was never let it go I remember sitting on the couch watching Grammy performances To her and her being like Ugh But this is really good And I feel like her befriending Rosie weirdly helps her performance.

Like she just seems really comfortable in this movie in a way that she doesn't often feel comfortable. They have chemistry. Yeah. She doesn't have chemistry with many other people on screen, including some husbands and, you know, current boyfriends. I wonder what if it's the thing of like, I think to be a good actor, and I don't know anything about it because I don't act, but like you can't be a perfectionist. You have to be messy and loose and vulnerable. And I just don't think that's her orientation towards the world. She is an achiever and a perfectionist.

And I think that might kind of stand in the way of what could be a great actress, you know, because she does have a lot of the, like, other parts that you would think, you know, she has the charisma, she has the star power, you love looking at her on screen. But she's just missing that thing where you have to, I believe, leave, like, just completely let go. And here it's different because when you're yourself, you kind of can let go, right? Because you're kind of being yourself.

And her best performances are when she's able to play a character that is very similar to herself, which is not Carol Lamarred. Right. It is Maibu, or it is Evita, which we'll get into later. It's interesting. She, I mean, she only worked with two women, two female filmmakers over her.

This is the second of the two. Yeah. And this is really the only, I mean, She was mostly working with women. Yes. Big female ensemble. It's really the only time. By the way, Gina Davis.

Can you even believe people look like that? No. She had like the original Instagram face before we even had Instagram face. It's like modeled on her natural. What do you mean by that? It's just like so the lips, like everything. What do you mean? You don't know about Instagram face?

Am I really explaining this to you? Just like give me the specific details that define Instagram face. Yeah, it's like really full lips, high cheekbones, like sort of like, lifted eyebrows. Yeah, like a sculpted, seamless, plain face where the... You can never achieve what she has because you can never make it look natural.

Is that considered her most desirable? According to Instagram and then, thus the plastic surgeons who receive people asking for Instagram face. It's sort of like a Kim Kardashian-Minted thing, if I had to pin it back to a patient zero. Kim Kardashian and Instagram computer filters. You know, that smooth everything out. Also, like, contouring.

Do you know about contouring in makeup to give you the, you know, the right, you know, some places you want shadows and some places you really don't. Should we give you a little contouring later? I have missed it with me. No. No, okay. So that's something I need. Anyway, it's just an absolute stunner. This, some of the funniest things in my young childhood were from this movie when, when May and Mabito was like, what if, like, when the camera comes out, all of a sudden, my jersey pops open and then my baby.

And then my bosoms come out. I'm doing all those characters like, I think there's a man in America who ain't seen your bosoms. Also, the John Lovett's character, just perfect. Every minute he's on screen, I'm like crying, laughing.

When she's teaching, what's the other, the teammate to read on the bus, but with the romance novel, really funny. Milkie, wide. What are you teaching her maid? Don't worry about it.

She's learning. He's very supportive. Yeah. And also the end, I just weep every time. Listen. The older versions coming. It's just to be my playground, you know, the final needle drop, right?

So wonderful. Jimmy Dugan. Tom Hanks, what a guy. Yeah. Really. Really, again, always a delight. It's so funny, like, what comes after this in her career, because she really does not take the note that everybody was like, Madonna was so winning in this film.

Like, she got great reviews. You know, she's part of this big ensemble. The tone, she finally figured out the movie with the right tone for her, right? Which is kind of what I was saying before, which is, like, this movie is a drama. that has really great comic moments and very memorable comedy. And she fits right in. It's never weird that Madonna is on this team, that she's like amongst these people. She's not, no one is more famous than the other in the scenes.

And then she never makes a movie even close to this ever again. I don't know that she was allowed. So where is she? What's 92? Okay, 92 is incredibly important. Okay, but at this point, so like a prayer is out, she's been chastised. The Pope. Vogue has come out because if you'll remember Vogue was actually from

Dick Tracy. Nobody really remembers that. Vogue was, they made it and it was so amazing. It was supposed to be a B-side of a single but it was so good and they had to put it somewhere so it could exist in the world and they put it as one of her original songs on Dick Tracy. But it's a huge hit. The Immaculate Collection has come out. That's a huge hit.

This used to be playing around. And then Erotica and the Sexbook. Which completely changes the course of the public's perception of Madonna. This is the thing. It's July 1st, 92 for... This used to be my playground.

For Olegal Their Own, and this used to be my playground. And then it's October for erotica. Okay, and that's how quickly it turns. Okay. The paradigm of Madonna changes. And then she's like the most hated woman in America. Like, she is... So much of this is so manufactured, though.

It was such, like, daytime talk show bullshit. Yeah. You know? Yeah, but it had real implications. I mean, she lost, like, a chunk of her American fan base. It had, like, monetary implications. I don't want to neg too much, but it's like, is part of that just because erotica is not as good.

Erotica is amazing. But it is not the pop bonanza that any of those previous albums are. But it's art. Actually, if you look at it's not the same. And it's been re-evaluate. Like, okay, yes. You know what I'm saying, though. Sure.

It's not, it doesn't appeal to the bass. Yeah, it's not as. I shouldn't say the base. It didn't appeal to like the wider public in the same way that the previous albums did. Sure. But like, I just feel like I get really, I get really heated about this because erotica is such a good album. Again, it doesn't, it's not. as like legible on a pop radio scale, but it's an incredible work of art.

This is just the challenge though of being a pop star. Like she's being measured against all the big hits that she had previous to this. And I mean, there are albums that come after this that have huge hits on it. This is the one though where like it gets real quiet for a minute because people don't love these songs as much. I mean, deeper and deeper was a pretty big hit. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm looking at the track list now.

I'm 10 years old. Yeah. Rain was a pretty big now. No, I'm eight years old. Went to see League of Their Own. in theaters. I know everything from the 80s, like Immaculate Collection has been handed down even though the, you know, the Pope and everyone is like, tisk, tisk.

And I don't, I'm not jamming out to these. Age, eight or night, which is not to say that they are good or that they are Or not. What you're saying makes total sense. It's not like a prayer. It's not express yourself. And it just is also, you know, a league of their own is a huge, huge hit and just very mainstream pop star. Like everyone in the world knows who Madonna is. And she doesn't double down on that level of mainstream radio pop. She goes in a toilet.

Which is like why I stand her forever? I guess like the thing that is so interesting to me is like if it was just the album was mid or whatever, you're not as pop, she would have been ignored. That's what happens to pop stars. They get ignored. Yeah. She was vilified, and it was because of the sex book. It was the one-two punch. If Erotica had just come out and there was no sex book, nothing would have really happened.

And she would have made another album, and it would have been fine. She was, like, public enemy number one. I think what I was thinking about when you first said that, though, is if Erotica had, like, a Papa Don't Preach on it, it would have been different because it would have been like, you have a chart-topping song, but you're stoking controversy with the sex book and you just come off a legal. It's just one of those things that were, like, the album is just like one song short where, if, if, you have been. put her in a very vulnerable position to your point about losing some of the juice. It just never would have had a song like that because it's not the orientation of the album. Totally. Like she went in a completely different direction.

Honestly, like the leap between like a prayer and erotica is so insane. Credit to her for taking an artistic chance. That's not really what I'm trying to say. And I shouldn't have said not as good. It's more like. No, I get what you're saying. She kind of jeopardized her centrality as a pop star by making an artistic choice, which is a good thing for her.

Which is what she does over and over and over. And it could have happened with like a prayer, you know, like, or like a virgin. as well. You know, just didn't. It is also, it is, it's the first time that she does that. And so it is just like a turning point for the first decade that we've been talking about now. Like, Madonna is just, Madonna and Michael Jackson are the pop stars. And like, she's on empty all the time.

Faded away, obviously at this point. Sort of. Yeah, please, you know. No, but like. Dangerous is 91. Dangerous 91. But it's, yeah, yeah. It has hits, but it's not quite as like.

Yeah. And then after that. what happens after that? I mean, remember the time was on TV. It's a wonderful song. Nonstop. In 92, he was still big, but it was, it's interesting that they both go into a little bit of a lull in this time.

And Prince is in a little bit of a lull. Springsteen's in a little bit of a lull. A lot of these icons of the previous 7, 8, 9 years. Because what happened in 92? Rock and roll, babe. Grunge music. Nirvana comes around. That's what it is.

But so I do feel like we think of reinvention when we think of Madonna. And like now she's trying this and now she's trying this. and now she's trying this. But this is the first reinvention, right? Like, this is the... Well, I mean, she's obviously doing slightly different things and doing costumes and characters and set. The first reinvention, I would say,

would be Papa Don't Preach, because it's the first time where she's doing, like, subject matter that is not frivolous. Right, right, right. And she has a new look and stuff. So that's, like, really the technical first one. Yeah. And then, like, A Prayer is the second one

where she's brunette and she's playing with... You know, this is, like, probably the third one. Yeah. But, I mean, like, now when I think of, like, the Madonna, that I know. Yeah. Sure.

Like, there are lots of visual references, but I'm like, there's, you know, mega pop star Madonna. Then there's sex book Madonna. Then there's Kabbalah, Madonna.

I don't really know where that comes in along with moves to London and has a British accent. Yeah. Madonna. You know, there's the, there's sampling ABBA Madonna.

Like, you can think of all... That's kind of the fourth. Yeah. Right. There are different phases of her life. And this feels like a new face.

It's funny because I think of, yes, I think you're totally right. And I think it's, I mean, and maybe that's just what I'm paying attention to and what I metabolize. I think there was multiple changes between the 80s and 90s.

It's just maybe we were a bit young to like clock them perfectly. But this is a huge deal. And as it has to stand with her films, it's a huge deal because she thinks of things in a grand scale. You know, every part of what she's doing is always connected to everything else she's doing.

360 degree. So, like, you're putting out erotica, putting out the sex book, and of course you're doing body of evidence. Of course you are. That fits perfectly in with what you're doing. And I'm going to say something. Body of Evidence is a good movie. You guys are wrong. Not you guys.

The royal you guys. It's really not. It's really not. Go ahead. I didn't revisit it for this, but I did watch it. I think for the first time in, was that 2020 or 20? No, it was 2020. Yeah.

when the big picture in the depths of COVID, not even, I think it was the summer of 2020. We did an erotic thrillers episode, and there wasn't much else to do, so I did spend a lot of time watching erotic thrillers at, you know, not what I consider to be erotic thriller hours of the day. Again, it was COVID.

We weren't going outside very much. Just broad daylight. Yes, body of evidence at like 2 p.m. is when my husband walked into the room and was like, what's going on here? Right. And is this, is this appropriate?

And I was like, it's only you and me here. There were no children yet. This is professional. We had no children at our lives. What do you mean? Is it appropriate? I don't think.

I think he was more just like, could I also be a part of this? Which, um, but it is, it's bracing and there, it's a real. They go for it.

They do go for it. And are they going for it on the same team? Is there any exploitation? Is there, I, you know, her tits look great. And there is a little bit of like, you gotta do it and put it on film while you still have it.

The only person I think might have been... You do. I agree. I don't think Madonna was exploited. I don't think she's... Maybe Julianne Moore, because I know she's come out and said that she didn't feel that her nude scene was like necessary and it was like sort of gratuitous. But I think Madonna is like fully in.

I don't know if I'm the most of the right person to speak about all of this stuff. The thing about this movie is it's coming in this, like really in the wake of basic instinct. And basic instinct, you've got this Dutch filmmaker Paul Verhoven who comes to America after, you know, making a handful of films in Europe that have all these transgressive qualities. And he makes Robocop and he makes total recall. And he makes basic instinct. And he's kind of throwing in America's face all of these kind of grisly, sexual, violent ideas that are right on the surface of our culture and kind of almost like making fun of us in real time. And in basic instinct, there's a sort of like male panic.

about the woman who will take everything from you, who will, you know, suck you dry and then stab you in the chest. And that movie is a huge hit, and it's also like a really interesting work of art. And it launches Sharon Stone into the stratosphere. And then six months later, you get Madonna handpicking Uliadale

who's made like Christian F. Yeah. Incredible director. Last exit of Brooklyn. Like really good films, like really more of like an art house filmmaker, for lack of a better word. and trying to apply the lessons of the erotic thriller boom. And to me, the script is just not good.

The script's a little wooden, but I kind of like, I just feel like this is a bit camp, which is why I like it. You know, like, I feel like through the lens of a bit of camp, it's kind of... I don't think that that was how it was intended at the time, though. And it was really pilloried at the time. I agree that Madonna is so hot in this movie,

And it was really mind-blowing for me to see this as a teenager. Like, honestly, mind-blowing. I was, I think her performance is really good. It's okay. I just think when you get the reveal of the character at the end, and I don't want to spoil for anyone who hasn't watched Body of Evidence, I feel like once the character was revealed in the twist, I was like, oh, wow, now every acting choice made a lot of sense to me.

I think that she does this thing over and over again in her career where, well, let's take who's that girl as an example. Opposite Griffin Dunn, she's pretty good because he's a fairly light actor. Yeah. You know, his, he, he, he leans on comic mannerism. And so when she wants to do that, they feel comfortable. But in her serious dramatic works, you know, she's going opposite John Malkovich and Sean Penn and in this film Willem Defoe. Yeah.

Like these really weighty, intense, masculine powerhouses. And she's just not as skilled an actor. Right. As they are. And, like, you can really see some of the vulnerabilities in her work when you, she's up and against these figures. But when she's up against somebody, you know, in Dick Tracy, it works a little bit better because the tone of that movie and the performance style

that everyone's doing is a little bit lighter. So I feel like she suffers because of that. I thought, like, her whole, the whole problem, if you will, with her acting performance series, it's a little inscrutable. But then once I realized, I was like, oh, it makes sense for this character to be inscrutable. I don't know if that was a choice, but whatever it is, it worked for me. I just, the only weird part about this movie is why is it in Portland?

None of these people live in Portland. Good question. None of you feel ever lived in Portland. What are you talking about? Really good question. This doesn't happen. And also I love Joe Montagnan. Joe Montagnan for president.

The ending is wonderful. That last line. I can't remember what is uttered. When Willam Defoe is like, you should have convicted her. And Wilm DeFoev or Joe de Metanio goes, I did. As they're wheeling her body, her lifeless body out of the houseboat. Sorry, spoiler. Damn.

Why she had like a dramatic fall from a, like through the plate glass? She's killed, yes. She's like shot at by the doctor that she conspired with. in order to, like, win the case about how she, like, did kill the rich guy she was aiding. I'm just going to take a moment and do a dramatic rating. Go for it. Of my friend Patrick Sandberg's letterboxed review of this, because I feel like he puts it more eloquently. He said, everyone was wrong about this movie.

Madonna's performance is perfectly calibrated and compulsively watchable. The sex scenes have a performative outre quality that makes sense within the context of the film's central erotic mystery. And it all comes across unusually chic due to Uliadel's directing, which is utterly phenomenal and drenched with noir references. while maintaining a visceral grit. This is a much better shot film than jagged edge, for example, which commits many of the same supposed sins, but in a less cinematic approach. Back in the old days, the term vanity project

used to be thrown around as an insult against films that were financed by a star's involvement for their own personal careerist reasons. It's funny how that now becomes the de facto business model for filmmaking across the entire spectrum of financing, because it's a good thing. People with taste, artists, should be making the decisions. The fact that Madonna wanted to make an erotic legal thriller

in the vein of basic instinct and selected the director behind Christian F and actors like Willem Diffoe, Julianne Moore and Frank Langela not to mention full metal jacket cinematographer Doug Milsom to do it with is fucking cool. Could the script have been better?

Yes. Should they have shot in Seattle instead of Portland without question? But is it a nasty, fabulous enthralling pop artifact? It's museum worthy. Apologize now. And I stand behind that.

That's how I feel. I like the house and Jagged Edge better. Not that anyone asked me. But it's a really good house. I'm going to say what I said before about every one of these Madonna films. It is unfairly criticized. Fine. Is it better than Sliver?

Yes. To me, you know, like, and no one was like Sliver's the worst movie I've ever seen in my life. This should be buried in the ground and never thought about it again. These movies very quickly went from being like, isn't this so exciting that it's happening to like these are all getting picked on and punished publicly? And a lot of it was coded in like middle-aged white male critics who didn't necessarily understand. some of the creative choices that were being made. To me, the movie is like, it's witness for the prosecution, but what if Marlene a Dieter got naked in the movie?

Which is a cool idea. And also at this point in Madonna's career, you know, like I am glad that erotica in the sex book are immortalized, like, on cinema. That is art. Her body is a gift to us. It is actually art in this in this particular. And it's a sort of interesting movie about that.

The parking lot scene? I'm sorry, not to be candid, but that's... I don't know. That's one of the hottest. sex sex scenes in movies fucking lame and awful 99% of the time. I'm like nobody does it like that. I'm bored. I'm going to get some popcorn. I was riveted. I was like, edge of May Cete. I was like, this is actually really cool.

I vividly remember rewatching it with Eileen during COVID for that episode that Amanda described and we were just laughing at the movie. We were having fun. We had fun. Yeah. It's fun. Was that when Julia I'm almost like, what is that? That was really good. Yeah. Okay, well, we'll agree or disagree. I'm glad you're caping for it. I really enjoy, I just genuinely enjoyed it.

I also enjoy maybe, like. I do own it on 4K for the record. Yeah, of course. I'm not a critic, so my litmus test for, if a film is good or not, is do I, did I enjoy it or not? I forgot Anna Archer is in this. Yeah. Not another one of my gals. I know.

It's interesting. I find her completely forgettable. Dangerous Game, 1993. Yeah, so I was thinking about this when you were describing some of the challenges that she had on Dick Tracy because this feels like she took this part to channel some of that. Yeah, yeah. Right?

Yeah. This is a fucking amazing film. Yeah. It took me a second. It takes this. I had to metabolize it. It's in the middle for me with Abel Farah. I'm obsessed with Abel Farah, the filmmaker.

And this is one of his collaborations with Nicholas St. John, the screenwriter, and like pretty much every movie they made together to me is like four or five stars. Like, I really love Abel Faris movies. This movie is a little rough. and it's a little jagged story-wise more so even than some of the

crime movies that Ferraro made Yeah you can You really see the pieces creaking around on this one It's not as like It's not as tight as the other Ferrar movies but it's a really interesting Madonna movie

I think she's really good at it And I guess it is because to your point she's borrowing a little bit from real experiences and then the like the movie within a movie and the meta quality of it probably helps her feel more comfortable

or more natural in the setting and also then makes her performance just read more naturally because they're like kind of layers to the consciousness of what you're watching but I think she's good in it I think it's a credit to Able Fara who like is such an unusual filmmaker

and I think definitely crafted entire like context and scenarios that pushed her to how, to access parts of herself that she couldn't before. I mean, there's that scene where Kytel is trying to direct her into that performance and making her repeat her lines over and over again, which is like you can see Ferraro doing that to her through hand.

What does he call her, like a commercial actress? Yes, yes. You stupid commercial. Also, James Rousseau was one of Sean Penn's best friends. So like to put your ex-husband's best friend opposite you as your love. So crazy. There's a scene where he cuts her hair, which obviously very clearly a wig, But that was like a reported thing that had happened within Sean Penn and Madonna's relationship

on one of their last fights is that he had threatened to cut her hair. And it's like putting that in. It's like, I don't know. When I first sat after I watched it, I was like, oh, I didn't like, what? I didn't like this. So what? And then I was like, let's just sit and think about it. And then I was like, oh, actually, this is absolutely a work of genius.

They're like kind of meta commentary on Hollywood, the meta commentary on what it is to make a film. I had never seen this and I liked it. Yeah, it's a cool movie. It comes right in the middle of like some extremely formative movies for me. It's Bad Lieutenant or King of New York, Bad Lieutenant, Body Snatchers, Dangerous Game, The Addiction, The Funeral. That was when I was really getting turned on to like New York crime movies. Tarantino was a huge, huge for our fan and cited him all the time. We eventually did King of New York on the rewatchables with Quentin.

And this was always the one that was like a little bit of the outlier. Like it was not like Guy with a gun movie. it was a different kind of a thing. Women's interests always get pushed to the back burner. Well, I don't know if I would say this is a women's interest movie. It's about like being a maniac film director. Well, yeah. Okay.

You know the wife character is actually Able for Ars' wife. That's his actual wife. I didn't know that. Well, then not now. Then, yeah, yeah. But that's also so interesting? Yeah. Also, what a time where Harvey Keitel with that haircut could be considered like a hot leading man?

Again, a different time. Yeah. Coming off bad lieutenant, he had a unique energy in the culture. It's a full-track haircut. He has a director, no. But I loved it. Unfortunately, again, the ill will towards Madonna was at an insane peak, and this home was basically not seen and then buried.

And I guess Abel Farrar blamed Madonna for that. Not the most commercial of filmmakers in general, though. No, yeah, it's not like it was going to have, like, a blockbuster. So it was an illegal run. Yeah. I don't think Madonna thought it was good, actually, in the end. She's kind of been quoted saying that... I think it's some of her strongest acting.

Yeah, I know. I agree. She said that he turned it into the bad director, which is not untrue. But she doesn't really seem to be interested in doing naturalistic, like, personal work. She wants to be highly stylized. So, you know. Which she kind of is both in this film. She has, like, highly stylized moments where she's playing the actress character.

It's like, she looks cool. She's wearing glasses. She's smoking cigs. And then she's also. Oh, yeah. Thank you. About the bar scene. I definitely spent a while.

Reverse image searching. the exact sunglasses that she's wearing in the... Did you find them? No. If you guys are listening... Yeah, if anyone can source those from... It's 33 years ago.

It's almost me. Sure. And not very... How long have raybans been made been? They could still be out there. I don't think they're rapids. Maybe they're... I'm just saying. There's enduring. They could be sourced.

I didn't see blow in the face, so if anyone has anything to add. I've seen it before. Wayne Wong movie. Part of this like duopoly movies he made with smoke about people coming into a smoke shop and just shooting the breeze. She's in a super short, like super quick moment. Yeah, her cameo.

She's a singing telegram girl. So back to the me-assie. It's kind of cool that she decided to chip in on this. It's a lot, there's a lot of cameos. It's kind of like a lot of small parts throughout the film. I think just what you just said, important to think about throughout. Madonna could have made a lot of different movies. She chooses really interesting projects.

She pretty much only does cameos for this three-year stretch, you know, these like small parts. Well, she was completely devastated and, like, knee-capped by how people reacted to erotica and the sex. But she just talked about it. It, like, took the wind out of herself. Like, it really made her. Like, it devastated her. It was horrible for her. So I think she kind of lost a bit of confidence and wasn't, like, trying to also have, like, ten more bad.

Can I ask a question you're not supposed to ask? Especially, yeah, when talking about women. But I'm just interested in. At this time. Yeah. 38? Yeah. Okay.

Like 35, 36 around. Inching up to a tricky time, right? Well, yeah, it's certainly like in a pop star's phase of life. In 92, she was 34. So she was still, you know, pretty young. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yes, of course. And also, don't forget.

But you can also sense her doing all this stuff, doing Body of Evidence, doing the sex book, doing erotica as like, I may never look this good again. You know, like, there's something about just like, let me just radiate at my highest power. I don't know if it was like I'm like the thought of I may never look this good again. I think it's like a kind of a known thing that like women come into their sexual power and prime around that age. She talked about that actually.

Wasn't that like a part of the pitch for the book? I think so. Yeah. That's just like a true thing. Like I think men hit their sexual prime at like 18 and women hit it like 35, you know? Yeah. Sheesh. So she is, she's really peeking.

I love four rooms. Four rooms, 1995. Really an artifact of my youth. I saw you log this on letterbox is something you love. I love it because. I was there. I was there when it happened. Listen, it is obviously uneven and weird or whatever, but I love that you just got

movies like this back then. Like, you would just be like, wow, I want to watch something fun and weird. And it's four short films United by Tim Roth being an absolute face actor to the max as this insane bellhop. And you get these like four different directors, like having the best time of their life, making some weird little short. and it has like huge stars in it. I just thought it's fun, you know.

We used to be a country. Yeah. But you hate short stories. I do. Again, and I've watched this, and my response was, like, I like Yossi like when people try things. This is not what I would have tried with my budget and time. It's certainly uneven. I don't, Alexander Rockwell's I found, like, so bizarre, like his, which I watched back

then, but I was like, I don't know what's happening here. I think this is a case where the accepted wisdom is a right wisdom, which is the man from Hollywood, the Tarantino segment, the last segment of the last segment the movie is a lot of fun. It's basically a remake of a TV show. Right. But, you know, it's got Bruce Willis in it. It's got a really funny story. It's really brief. Everything else. I love Allison Anders. The part of the Madonna's. I think it's like, it's fun. It's fun. And it's like, it's really visually arresting. I think you have all these like incredible starlets of their time looking so beautiful. And it's like a funny, cute little witchcraft story that has like a lot of sexual

innuendo that you almost would think a man would have made, but a woman made it. a Madonna looks fucking incredible in that latex dress Yeah I saw this in theaters Like if you were in on the Sundance wave like it was a huge deal I was like oh Miramax I'm on my way babe

What you got for me Mr. Weinstein But it bombed It bricked I mean you could see it also nobody wants to see short Short films period You know I enjoyed it I have a great affection for it and I love Tim Roth I would follow Tim Roth to the moon

What a great actor This was Miramax's big Christmas release Of my Christmas They were like, here you go, take your family The ending Makes the whole thing worth it That last moment And his little like

D-Doo do you dancing out of thing I hadn't seen girls six In 20 years And I got to watch it last night Because I have my ways I think this is one of the best movies It's ever been made in the history of movies It's a pretty strong statement

It is, yeah I haven't seen it in a long time Time. So, Better Man. Is that what the Robbie Williams movie is? I do love. Girl 6, number 2. Girl 6.

And Testament of Annalia. And what was the Allegraziah? Lagraziah. I would put that in my top four. Hot Frosty. These are only the ones I've been allowed to talk about on the big picture, but I have, I have various. I would say invited to talk about. I'm not allowed to talk about.

I love the before trilogy. There's a lot of movies that I love. Okay. Girl 6th I remember being fun. It's an awesome. that movie for Spike Lee to have made. Well, this is why I find it so interesting. I love, I realize that when I saw it originally, I wasn't old enough for it to

hit me properly. I would recommend watching it again, Amanda. It's like actually such an incredible meditation on what it is to be sexualized as a woman and what it is to like exist in the patriarchy, sorry for putting on the pink pussy hat. It's phenomenal. And the fact that Spike Lee did it so deftly, I mean, he didn't write it, but a woman wrote it. Oh, it's Suzanne Laurie Parks.

It's Susan Laurie Parks. It's a top dog underdog and, yeah, famous playwright. I think we watch, if you haven't seen it. And because it's, he does something really special and he's able, like, I walked away from feeling really like, wow, like this was, like, profound. So. And it's fun. It's both. Like, he does it both.

And it has obviously, like, wall-to-wall prince music. It's visually incredible. Like, the outfits, the. It's the colors, like the saturation of the colors. It's like Disneyland Naomi Campbell and those movie Debbie Mazars and something. Obviously Madonna has a cameo. Probably like a repeat cameo. She comes back twice and she looks great.

This is one of the most frustrating unavailable on physical media movies, like, of all time. Like, it's only available on DVD and it's like $500 on eBay to buy it on DVD. If you're about that life, be about that life. The only Spike movie all the way up until like he starts doing the streaming movie is that you where you can't really find it. Why is that? It's not really streaming. Is it the Prince music?

And it's ironic because the, like, the Madonna scenes in the movie, there's a moment when Madonna is, like, talking to Teresa Randall over a Prince song that is, like, Spike Prince Madonna meeting. And it's like these kind of iconic figures of this decade of our lives intersecting in one little two-minute period of the movie that is so cool. I remember liking the movie. I don't, I probably just need to rewind.

Yeah, I don't know. Again, I don't want a pink pussy hat, but like, it might be like a woman, like, more impactful if you're a woman. Like, it's just, there's something really special about the way and it's so light touch. It's not so heavy handed as often these stories are, you know? It's satirical. It's, well, or it's like a black comedy. Yeah, it's a dark comedy.

And it's, yeah, it's just like, it's really. So it's not too po-faced about anything. Exactly. Yeah. And the actress, Teresa Randall, is incredible. She's terrific in the movie, yeah. John has a lot of really funny little people in it. Like Michael Imperiole is in it.

Halliberry. Hallibary, as herself. It's wonderful. Anyways, Madonna has a very small part of it. But she's great. She's good. I rewatched her scenes. It's very hard in that era, too, because she's playing a mistress, you know.

Yeah. But she's funny. Yeah. She's great. This is, now we're getting to a really momentous thing where I'm going to need you guys to help me out here. I did not rewatch Evita. I did. I will never rewatch Evita.

With love and respect. So I did rewatch it and you had never, you had not seen it. And you and Sean and I both remember going to the theaters to see this. Like it was a cinematic and pop cultural event. I went on a school trip to see this movie when I was in high school. So you answered my question. You had to. And you were like, I love musicals.

I didn't totally love musicals, but I was 12. Right. And I, and it was madame. And so getting to go to the movies was just, you know, a treat. And it was also despite the backlash after Erotica and the sex book, like Madonna was still Madonna. And this was like a big Christmas movie in 1996. We were both Oscar nerds and reading Entertainment Weekly at this point. It was it was a thing.

It was a moment. By 95, she just put out something to remember, which if you guys remember at all, it's the compilation of all her ballads. And that's a huge hit It has a new song on it Take a bow Oh sure Big big hit Yeah huge

So this is like the rehabilitation of Madonna In the eyes of it She's she's she has It's her very purposely Classing herself up Right Not even class yeah but reminding people

Like I'm still America's You know pop star Like I still have I'm not just like The woman with her vagina Out and the sex book Like don't forget

You know Right And yeah she's rehabilitating So that's 95 And I will do that by playing an Argentinian woman. Right. By, yeah, by playing a film

where I don't get naked and it's a really dramatic high, you know, I don't know, high what value, high touch, I have no idea. I did not enjoy this movie. But I also famously hate musical, so it's like really difficult for me to like a musical.

I'd like to interrogate what was going on with Andrew Lloyd Weber, which I feel like every time every time I watch a movie, adaptation, Andrew Lloyd-Weber film. I'm like this, or musical, I'm like, this film isn't very good, but also, like, what were you on? Is it his? This started?

Why, why did we need to make, like, a concept album, which is how this started, about the life of Ava Peron? I think he's a very eccentric artist. I also do not like his film adaptations, except for Jesus Christ Superstar, which I think is really cool. Yeah. But I think, like, Jesus Christ Superstar, another good. example of his eccentricities as a writer.

It's also, you know, Tim Rice wrote it with him. Tim Rice coming off of, I think he had just come off of the Lion King at this point. Good one. And it's directed by Alan Parker, who, you know, started out like Pink Floyd's the Wall, but has become this sort of more hallowed Oscar-type figure with stuff like Mississippi burning in the 80s. And it's a weird mishmash of a lot of different kind of competing, very strong figures all working.

The script is co-written by Parker in all. Oliver Stone, who of course is well known for his films of revolution. And also parachuting to South America and or Central America and inserting his own opinions. That's right. Something he does. Sean Penn and him should get together and go on a trip. They did. They did.

Here's my thing. I don't know whose decision this was or whose inflexibility it was that was like there will be no talking. Every piece of understanding in this film. will be through song. Yes. No, thank you for me. I need a little more connective tissue. I'm sorry, I'm not an Argentinian history scholar.

I had to look at Wikipedia the entire time. I actually think Ander Lloyd Weber, kudos to you. Ava Peron's a fascinating figure. It's a cool story. I get why you were interested in it. I totally get why Madonna was interested in. If you look at Madonna's understanding of her own life path, and Ava Peron's life path, there's a lot of similarities.

Like, came from nothing. You used your feminine wiles and your looks and your skills to ascend to another level. We're demonized for being just a entertainer. You know, I think she saw a lot. And she's, for her whole life, been whatever you want to say about it, a philanthropist. I mean, she has, she's raised more money for Amfar, I think, than anyone during the 80s or whatever. she's always been like interested in the well-being of the world in whatever ways she was. If I could see why she'd want to do it.

I just don't understand why we can't know what's going on in the movie. With more dialogue. Right. You don't respond to Antonio Banderas narrating through the lens of the every man. I mean, this is what Andrew Lloyd Webber does. This is the musical. He does sung through musicals. Cats is this.

Jesus Christ. Superstar is this. popular film. You know, Miss Saigon never adapted, The Phantom of the Opera. These are all songs for musicals. They don't have dialogue. But the Phantom of the Opera is like esoteric.

Like you don't really need to know what's going on. You feel your way through it. This is a historical story. I have seen at least three, maybe four Andrew Lloyd-Weber musicals staged. And there are these like kind of set piece dominated, kind of sweeping, chaotic, big, grand eloquent stories, right?

And so you'd think that they would pour it over nicely to cinema, but because of the song through style, something feels very unnatural. It's grandiloquin a word, or did you just make that? That is a word, yeah. I love that. Thank you. Can I use that?

It belongs to the English language, so dig in. And so, yeah, I mean, I agree with Amanda. I feel like they very rarely translate to something. This movie's not as kooky as I find some of his other adaptations. Like, cats is just weird. Yeah. Which... Well, it's about talking cats.

Sure. Singing cats, which I do ultimately think is part of the problem, because this is an adaptation that is taking... A real person's... Well... It's situated in a real political environment. Yeah, it's situated in a real world. And so when they are recreating it,

I mean, I was amazed at rewatching it. It just, you know, how many real people there were in the crowd scenes because, you know, now, you know, my kingdom for one crowd scene filled with real people instead of AI. We have not figured that out. It was very moving. But there's parts that are just so moving

where you're like, the people are crying and responding to this figure. And, like, also, mimics a pop star. Yeah. I mean, that is interesting as it is a scrubbed, just deconstruction of fame. But just, like, the production value and the recreation of this era of Archeon and her costumes.

Beautiful. Smooth shot by Darius Conjee's. Exactly. So it looks good and real world. But when you've taken that out of the theater and the kind of fantastical sitting of we're all on this adventure together, and so you're recreating events,

much like you would at, like historical epic, And we did see this. This was released at Oscar season in the 90s. And so you're expecting something. And then Antonio Banderas is just switching into rock opera, narrating the political situation in Argentina. And it is so still not silly, but fantastical.

And it feels a little camp. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's a mismatch of tones. And I think that she's not bad in it. I was going to ask you. Listen, I mean, don't cry for me, Argentina with her doing this and the hairs was very, very important to me. And were you telling me that Rachel Ziegler is doing this now in London?

Yeah. And I think she just won the Olivier. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's coming to. That casting makes sense, I think. Because you also, I feel like the challenge with the movie is, I think she sings well in this movie, but it's a, it feels like it's written for a belter. And Madonna is not a belter. She's not a to the rafter singers.

did, you know, the fandom has a lot of opinions about it, but she underwent intense vocal training for this. And it kind of permanently changed her voice. So all the albums that come after this have a new Madonna voice. Okay. What's different about it? It's just bigger. It's like she's able to access more.

Again, yes, she's not like, you know, Patty Lepone. She's never originated the movie. Yeah, that's on Broadway in 79, yeah. But, you know, I think Tim Rice said that they wanted her because she's a brilliant interpreter of song. And I will say her best acting to me is in her own songs. That's what makes Madonna's music so compelling to me is that when she's singing her own lyrics,

you really feel the character and the story in it. She is able to bring that. And I can see what Tim Rice meant is like, I need someone who can interpret song in a dramatic way because that is the whole story. I thought she was good. I thought she was really good. It's not bad.

There's just something a little bit awkward about. I don't know how to judge how good a person is in a musical. So as like an actor, that's like a little difficult for me, again, as someone who doesn't really understand a musical. It's definitively not a fiasco, which it could have been. Right. It performed well, right? Did it do a business. She won a golden globe.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Back when they really meant something. Well, you know what? Jennifer Lopez never won one. And she was upset about it. She beat Glenn Close and Francis McDormand and Debbie Reynolds. Okay.

And Barbara Streisand. That was the lineup that year. that's kind of impressive sure yeah does she be debby reynolds for mother yeah and francis norman for fargo yeah that's yeah that's a great that's called she went the Oscar for that

she did yes yeah yeah which madonna was her first of three how many Oscars does Madonna have she does well does she have does she have one for a song a song was you must love me it didn't win you must love me it was nominated it would it be her Oscar anyways

I think it did win but it did win but she didn't write it so she doesn't get the Oscar she just never been nominated for an Oscar No. Wow. She has performed at the Oscars twice. Yeah. She performed sooner or later from Dick Tracy,

and you must love me. Both of which are not her songs. I think sooner or later might have also won. I'm happy to, I think she got to have... Did the costumes win for Vita? The costumes are... They were really great. I think it only won that Oscar.

Okay. Five nominations total. One won for You Must Love Me. Yeah. Was not nominated for costume, but was nominated for Art Direction. And cinematography. Costums were great.

This is the end, I think, of Madonna movie star. She appears in movies after this. She makes more movies. But weirdly, even though she did pretty well in this movie, she won a Golden Globe. People went out and saw the movie. People you can still remember. Don't cry for me, right?

That's a moment. I think he really understand, or at least get a whiff of her psychology from this, because Madonna's an achiever. So, like, she achieved it. I think in her estimation, I don't want to, like, psychoanalyze the person I don't know, but like, I can, looking back from the arc, like, okay, you made a movie that was unquestionably good. You won an award for your performance. Everyone said you were good, you know? And it's like, okay, also she's, you know, she's pushing on 45 now.

I don't know. That's crazy. Yeah. She just doesn't have her Purple Rain. she doesn't have her a star is born. She's just missing. She's made some really good movies. But she's missing that one iconic movie

that when you think Madonna and the movies, that's just truth or dare, you know, but that's really just her. Or maybe Stets really is seeking Susan. Even though she's not the main thing, she kind of is the main thing. You know what I mean, though. And like Beyonce doesn't have to see it, though.

Like, Beyonce tried with Dreamgirls and Austin Powers. I think Beyonce and Madonna have a very similar thing, which is, again, their perfectionist achievers. That is not the same as being an actor. That's the thing with Purple Rain is it's just the best parts of Purple Rain are him performing on stage, but they like make the movie something iconic and unforgettable. And I don't know if she could have pulled that off.

I mean, she does have it with truth or dare where she's performing in that movie and you get that. I think it just, I think if things had played out differently made with different collaborators or different like, you know, situations. Also, you know, she's quite busy. Like, it's during that time. She's not like she's just making movies. It's a sideline. Right.

Going on like six-month world tours or whatever. I was unable to watch the next best thing because it is, for whatever reason, completely unavailable anywhere to watch. And Sean was at Disneyland and couldn't loan me as DVD. Yeah. But you didn't re-watch it. I didn't re-watch it.

I saw it. I might have even seen it in theaters. It's directed by John Schlesinger, who made a cowboy, which is, like, fascinating that they, and, you know, I'll tell you one of the reasons why they enlisted him. This is obviously a story. to your point about gay men and gay friendship

and her close relationship with Rupert Everett's character in this movie and their desire to... They were also best friends in real life. Yes. And that's why the movie exists. And John Schlesinger was a gay man. And I think, as I recall, having watched the movie, there is something a little like rom-comy in a good way.

I like comforting about the movie? I was 18. I loved it. I loved Madonna. It was a fun rom-com. I think it's critically not... Not well-liked. Yeah, I don't think people were kind about it.

I remember seeing it, I think, also in theaters, because this was also after my best friend's wedding. Yes. So I was familiar with her. Yeah, exactly. One of the first actors to come out is gay in Hollywood. I mean, one of the only men who could be the first face on a poster. We were talking about this, maybe off-mic about Jonathan Bailey recently, right?

And we were like, how it still does not happen. The movie is fine. It's fine. It's fine. Feels like she did it just because she really wanted to. I think she did it because Robert really wanted to. And she really loved Ripper Ever, and she was like, I'll do this for you.

There was a funny tid about, there's two funny tits because John Schleshing girl is like 75 years old this point or something. Is that a 50 year career making movies at this point? Apparently Madonna like had completely shifted in how she was, she was married, I think she was either with Guy Ritchie or married to Gary Ritchie at this point. And she like couldn't, she wouldn't do a heterosexual sex scene.

She was like no heterosexual sex scenes. John Schlesinger, or probably not John Schlesinger, obviously. The studio wouldn't do a homosexual sex scene. So there's no sex scenes in the movie. And even when she had to make out with Benjamin and Brat, one of the hottest people ever, she had to drink. And so apparently she would keep having a few drinks and then ad-libbing, and John Schlesinger was getting increasingly agitated with her ad-living.

And at some point there was like some scuffle and he fell and broke his coxics. Oh, no. So he kind of hated the experience, I believe, of making this fall. Tough one. Tough one. I didn't see Star. Did you see it? No.

No. You know what it is? It's a short film that she directed and appeared in. Okay. She's getting ready to start directing her own features. Yeah. But first we have to do something abominable. 2002 is swept away.

Do you know it was Stephen Weber's idea? You did because I put it in the dock. Stephen Weber, who one of the hot guys of my youth from Wings. Sure. Him and Tim Daly. He was friends with them and said, said that they should remake the Lena Wurtmuller, 1974.

Have you seen the original? Certainly have. John Carlin, Gianni. Me, meant to watch it before so I could see the good version, but I didn't. We did a 1976 movie draft that's coming out later this month,

and Lena Vertmuller's Seven Beauties was nominated for an Oscar, like a couple years after this, after, this swept away was really like her breakthrough, I think, to audiences beyond Europe. Madonna was actually, I guess I should have brought it earlier, but it's worth bringing up now. She was kind of a deep centiphal, like since college.

She loved film and films of like, you know, every, like, prominent filmmaker and art house filmmaker. I mean, you can see that in the tour direction and the music videos and everything, like every other iteration of what she creates as a pop star and all the visual aspects of being a pop star that she has control over. Like have immense film references. Honestly. German expressionism, old style Hollywood. To answer your question, her greatest film is her music videos. Yeah, of course. As a whole.

I assume that's where we're, that would be the end of this conversation. Just look at Vogue. Yeah. I mean, that's it. It's a great film. Bedtime story, Frozen, Chris Cunningham. I mean, like, she has made some of the best music videos that have ever existed.

Yeah. Anyway, Swept Away is not one of them. Swept Away is just insane. It's an incredibly indean. annoying. I would say it is it is probably the worst performance from Madonna. You know what? It is uniquely bad.

She's very unpleasant. And they, and has made a choice to be really aggressive, but the aggressive tone is not matching with anything that's going on in the movie. And no one says it. No one fix it. Fixes it. No one pulls her aside.

It's given what's the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory character, the spoiled girl? Veruca. Baruka salt. Like her whole tone the entire time is... Super braddy. I want it. You, me.

You're bad. I hate you. Give me this. And I'm like, dude, Guy Ritchie, were you not there? Were you asleep? Is not your job to direct and tell her to be different? It's consistent with the performance by the actress, Mary Angela Milato, who plays the character in the 74 film. Like, they are doing the movie.

It's just, it's not a good version of the movie. It's a tough one. You know, you had some unkind. things to say about guy and like this was really weird that this happened like and it kind of fascinatingly like derails him as a filmmaker for a minute too because he's unlocked away or that they got married well i'm i'm not sure about that part but i mean he makes lockstock in two smoking barrels and and snatch and if you were in the crime movies when these two movies hit like a bomb they were just like this is the coolest fucking thing i've ever seen they're obviously riffing on a lot of shit

from the 70s but his dialogue was really funny and fast moving he was immediately pulling in the Brad Pitts and Beniso del Toro was like right away. He was a real phenomenon. You know why? Because he's not a kid from the East Side who was poor his whole life as he purported to be. He was a boarding school kid with two parents who married aristocrats. I got no thoughts on his personal life or his background. I don't even know that much about it.

I do know that what after Snatch, we were like, is this like British Scorsese or something? And obviously wasn't even close to what it turned out to be. And I think he has actually redeemed himself in the last five or so years with like a certain kind of movie that he's gotten really good at. But this is so far away from what people thought he was good at. And he did it obviously because he fell in love with someone, right? It's so unclear to me like why this film was made. One assumes she wanted to make it. And he, I mean, everyone had to want to make it.

But like immediately if this movie's over, he goes right back to making crime movies. From my study of Guy Ritchie, he doesn't do a lot of things he doesn't want to do. So, you know, he had to want to make it too. He lights her beautifully. Sure. Sort of. She looks stunning in this film. Again, much like Shanghai surprise, I'm like,

I hate every minute of this film, except that she looks so stunningly beautiful. I do think that this is when I started to Google, like, Madonna PEDs. What's that? Like performance enhancing drugs. Oh, because she was so bad. Because, yeah, and it's when, you know, obviously, she's getting older. We as older women know you have to start doing your strength training. Like some of it is just, it's about, she's an athlete.

She's always been really ripped. And bone density is important. But then, like, you can start seeing, like, the veins a little. And this 2002 is also, like, the. This is Tracy Anderson method, though, I think. So, right? Yeah. I just, like, there were, there were some.

You think she was doing a stintry? You know, I was just kind of like, I don't, I think I could work really hard. Yeah. And it wouldn't look like that. I don't know. It's worth noting that Guy Ritchie literally knows. never made another movie again that centered a woman, period. Every single movie he makes is about men.

Yeah, it is worth noting, though. It's one of the reasons about the movie doesn't work. It's like he doesn't understand how to make a movie like this. It's not something that interests him. So that's why it's such a weird choice. I think part of it, from my understanding, I didn't see the original, but I read up on it, is that part of, you correct me,

part of what makes the original work is the political aspect of it and the, like, really heavy leaning into the classism and the fact that the woman is, like, a fascist. Yes. They come, not completely, but like, they really neuter that in this movie. And all it comes down to is, like, a few, like, loose chats about capitalism that are, like, completely forgettable. And you don't, also, there's a, there's a scene of sodomy in the first one that is, like, kind of driving that point home of, like. How you get fucked by the rich.

Yeah. But, like, but inverting it, that's completely cut out because Guy Ritchiech didn't want to do that, allegedly. So I just think the premise is neutered. It's not going to work anyways. That guy was hot, though, the son of the original actor. He's okay. They don't have any chemistry. They don't, but he's quite good.

She's in London at this point. Yeah. And she's friends with Gwyneth Paltrow. She's friends with Gwethro? I think so. I was just, I was prior to this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Stella McCartney.

This is a fun, Guinethara. There's a really, I mean, a fun, Guantithera, but a fun Madonna era. Great era. Yeah. There's a really weird commercial that also comes around around this time. a BMW commercial that Guy Ritchie directed. Do you remember this? I don't.

Which also, I was like, do you hate her? Like, because the premise is like, she's like, again, this like really bitchy pop star. That's like a massive cunt. I feel like she was very comfortable leaning into some of this stuff, though. That's sort of what I was saying where she's kind of, she provoked. Yeah. Well, I think it fits back into her, like, comedic thing. She's like, oh, this is a funny one-note comedic actress.

Okay, oh, Clive Owen is in it. So it's her up against Clive Owen. and he's like the driver and the whole thing is like he drives like a psycho to like beat her up in the car like she's just like flying or flopping around the car and at the end he like ejects her onto a red carpet and it's like shown that she pissed herself and I was like why would you make your why would you have your wife do this this is crazy they didn't stay married so no you did he did take 92 million dollars of her money though when he left thanks and that's what funded all your favorite movies $92 million all every

League of or club of extraordinary gentlemen or group of extraordinary gentlemen. I don't think he's badros himself. There was a Guy Ritchie profile. My friend Patrick was like, I was like, what's Guy Ritchie? He's been making movies and Patrick started listing films and I was like, wow, I have an entire

Baron's Day and Bear's situation with Guy Ritchie where I did not, I've never heard of any of these films. And he's just been cranking out two films a year for 20 years. And also TV shows at this point? And TV shows. I did see the Sherlock one, which I did quite enjoy, but I didn't know. The Sherlock film? I just love Sherlock Holmes and I love.

Was it that's because it didn't say Guy Ritchie's The Cumberland. I love Robert Downey Jr. And I love Sherlock Holmes. What could go wrong? I don't know what to say. Guy Ritchie makes a lot of good movies. I don't know. I don't know about it.

I've been talking about him for 20 years. I'm open to it. It's really good. Aladdin, famously, one of the big pictures. Remember when you started crying because the genie fucks? Well, that was an unusual choice to give him a romantic of love interest. I'm sorry, I've just chosen my person and it's my daughter. There's a crazy, a really funny

Esquire profile of Guy Ritcher from 2009 that Tom Chiarla wrote back when Esquire would, like, write these really abrasive chatty kind of profiles that really, I think, shows you what was going on with Guy at post-Madonna. You know what, to be fair to both of them, I just think it's a crazy pairing. Like, I think it would be difficult for any male mortal

to be with a woman like Madonna because it's the classic thing. Like, she's so powerful and such a, like, luminous, iconic rich like everything that emasculates a normal man and then you're a director on top of it and you need control like it's not a good pairing

I think they were very much in love though I had guy on the big picture early on in the show yeah and it was for the King Arthur film that he made don't know about it never heard of it where King Arthur is like a samurai swordsman's weird movie with Charlie Hunter I kind of enjoyed it been men in blacked about everything the guy rich was everything I don't know anything about it

but he came in and honestly it was really cool I don't know what to say. He was extremely polite. He was funny. It worked on you. He was dressed like he was going to go hunting with his dogs immediately after the pod. You know, he was given British estate lad. And I enjoyed it.

I had a nice time. Hopefully they're on good, nice terms. I think they are. Okay. I think they are. Swept away should just be. Deleted. Delated.

Not a good film. I enjoyed her in Die Another Day as Verit. Did you watch this? I rewatched. I mean, I've seen Die Another Day. The Cameo. Yeah, it's pretty funny. Yeah.

I totally forgotten it's Rosamond Pike. Me too. She's so young. Yeah. She was great. It's a great movie, actually. No, it's not. I loved it.

And it's a very, very dumb Bond movie, but it's entertaining. Are they not supposed to be dumb? They are, but not dumb. Maybe I don't understand films. I had such a fun time. I was like, this is fun. I think that's actually exactly what it's supposed to be. You were the correct audience.

And also, Madonna showing up in a Bond movie is kind of the right way to use Madonna. She's great. Yeah. Well, also, that was the first ever bond theme that wasn't a ballot. done by Madonna die another day It's an electronic song It's awesome Interesting

Yeah She's pretty good Opposite Brousman Do I not understand Good films? Is it not good What is a Bond film Is it supposed to be like more elevated?

Well he doesn't like The Bond films So that's part of it Yeah and sometimes But you like Mission Impossible Which is different why Because they jump out of planes They did some cool

They didn't have The Stephen Hunt is American Oh okay That's yeah No I like the Bond movies That's not sure I was not raised on them though So I don't have the same

emotional connection. Sean Connery is my bond. Also, I was explaining to my roommate because she had never, she's never seen Finding Forrester. And I was like, you're the man now, dog. The way we used to say that to each other,

all the, I remember the movie's about nothing. I remember there's like a basketball playing teen who is befriended an old reclusive author who's like based on J.D. Salinger, is that right? You've just nailed the film. Yeah.

Oh, damn. There you go. See you do you know films. What I remember the most is, you're the man no dog. Yeah. It's in every trailer and commercial for the film. Wonderful.

Another day is it's not the greatest bond movie. What's the greatest bond movie? You say casino royale, I say Skyfall. No, that's not what I say. I do like Casino Royale quite a bit. I think it's from Russia with Love is the best one. Okay. That's Roger Martin.

I'm more of a Skyfall person than a Casual. Oh, you are? Oh, that's nice. I don't think that's always been your tune, but welcome. It's not true. We were on the Skyfall rewatchables together. I know. And that was beautiful. But even then you were like, well, the real people think it should be Casino Royal.

Have you noticed that they are keeping us apart on their rewatchables? When's the last time we did a rewatchables movie together? You would be too powerful together. I think it's called every single episode, you know. Yeah. Maybe we don't, they don't want to replicate the big picture. Wait, so what, desperately seeking Susan would be your number one pick? If we're not, if we can't pick truth or dare.

Wow. That would be interesting. I don't think a documentary has been done on the rewatchables. Oh, no, for the rewatchables? Yeah, for our watchables. Oh, you know what would have been and they already did it is John Cusack at the record store? High fidelity. High fidelity.

I know. I wasn't on that. Respect to the people that were on it because I love Joanna and I love Rob, but that should have been me. Who's more suited to be able to? I mean, the ringer exists because of high fidelity. It's a bunch of people who are high fidelity people, even if they're not, even if like I hate high fidelity, but they have their own, you have your own version of high fidelity stuff. You know what would be my number one, gross point blank. That's an amazing movie.

That's probably my favorite movie of all time, or at least top four, and I know it inside it out, and I love it, and I can speak to deep lore about it. It's a five-star classic. It's a five-star classic. And I think I unconsciously based a good deal of my personality on Debbie Newberry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Bill Simmons, if you're listening.

He's not. He's not. You don't have to say that. We could just let an air of mystery for the listeners. We don't listen to the big picture either. Don't worry about it. We don't know. Did they do a Casino Royale, rewatchables?

Yeah, we did it. I was, I don't know. Maybe it was me and Chris. Yeah, no. See, that's the thing. Do you didn't do it? You did it, I thought. Oh, I did do it.

Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Hi, Bill. Thanks for having me. It's literally not listening. Sean, allow some mystery for the listeners who believe that we're all friends and we all listen. People want to hope that Bill is listening to hour three of the Madonna filmography pod.

In the sauna. I mean, I would be listening. I listen. Yeah, I need it on triple speed. Two acts. Listen, I listen to all the big picture episodes, even the Star Wars draft to which it was pure ASMR for me. It was just my friends' voices bathing my brain. I have no idea what the fuck y'all are talking about.

Have you seen a new hope? I haven't seen, I've only ever seen the first Star Wars movie. That's a new hope, yeah. Is that the first one? Star Wars, colon, a new hope. But you know what? Is that what it's called? It is now.

I have found myself explaining that to like other non-Star Wars nerds. But people who know about Star Wars and know a lot of stuff, they just aren't of the generation where they caught on to the rebranded. But was it in the beginning, too? No. Oh, yeah. So I only saw it when I was 18 and that was the only time I saw it. I saw Space Balls first.

So I came to Star Wars being like, Oh, that's... Spaceballs 2 coming out next year. Oh, my God. Thank God. One of my favorite movies all the time. That's another rewatchable as I would do. I know every Melbrook's movie inside it out.

Oh, can she come on the Mel Brooks episode? Yeah, we're doing Mel Brooks' episode. My parents raised me on that. That's like our shared love language. Okay, well, I've seen every single. We're going to rank every Mel Brooks movie on the big picture. You're booked. Oh, my God.

That's exciting. That's great. There's only 12 movies. Oh, that's so great. Oh, my God. Blazing Saddles. I can't wait. Okay.

I didn't see Philadelphia's, I'm sorry. I thought we weren't going to really talk about directorials stuff, but I do want to because I did see W. I haven't seen it either. Do you look? Filth and wisdom? No, no, no, no. I haven't seen it. Because you couldn't. You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. I think it's not accessible. We are at best. Like, I couldn't even find it on like,

like, archived site. Like, I couldn't find it. Interesting. Maybe it is out there. I do want to talk a bit about W.E. to wrap it up. Sure. Okay. I really wanted this to be good. I mean, you wanted this to be good. I've also, I recently read three books about the Duchess of Windsor. Sure.

And what did we learn? From this movie or from the three books? Not a lot. Okay. I think that we did learn that they were both and he particularly, he being Edward. The former, yes, they were Nazis. In this film, they sort of try to soften that by saying they just had dinner once when they didn't know that Hitler was bad. Right.

And Madonna tries to. Hasn't had dinner with a person that we found charming, but ended up to be really a bad person. Yeah. So the movie spends a lot of time being like, well, they were misunderstood and we don't really know. And we know. We do know. In fairness, there's quite a bit of chatter around Ava Perron and her husband and some questionable political. I don't know about it because I'm not a historical scholar, but I believe they also had some comings and goings with Mussanina.

I would believe that Andrew Lloyd Weber and Tim Rice's musical, Evita, is not the truant. representation of Argentinian history. I'm not an expert. I have done a little bit more reading on Wallace Simpson and Edward, the Duke of Windsor. And they were not... But this was so... It's so weird. I'm like...

Abby Cornish is a great actor, but then... But she's given nothing to do as issues. And it's like built around the auction of their stuff. The transitions are so exactly what I did when I first started even directing a little pieces of content where you're like, this is so clever if I just transitioned from this

gloves on sale at the auction to her hands in the gloves. But it does that like 25 times. It's Julia and Julia or Julia and Julia but applied to this setting where it goes back because her name is Wally.

She's named after Wallace Simpson. Yeah. And she understands what happened between them as like one of the most romantic things of all time. Which again you can see that. I mean for I get, I think that is not questionable. Like for a king to abdicate his throat.

because he loves you so much is like that's pretty peak that's not what it is this is and like why do we keep telling this story in movies this is the fucking king speech too like why do we why is this interesting for a man to give up power for a woman because he was also a nazi and so if he hadn't given up the throne then there would have been so real issues we should thank her well we care about the future of britain and defeating nazi germany well i know that i know that i know you're irish we came through yeah we did but i think that there were some concerns that if it not I think we should be reconinized. If it had not been Colin Firth on the throne.

Remember in the physical media draft when Tim was like, I went to the Claremont Lounge with the guy who was in the King's Beach. What was his name? Colin Fur? Which is definitely how he's identifying Colin. Yeah. Mr. Darcy. We need Chris Ryan here for this particular part about the war and the Nazi.

I agree. But so, anyway, Megan, Markle. Yeah. And that whole situation and Harry have been compared a lot to Wallace. No, but I do think that both stories of the popular imagination underrate, like, how lame the man is in the situation. Wait, do you think? Those are real problems going to there? Do you think Wallace Simpson was a CIA agent?

Well, that, it could be. That would be a cool movie. Yeah. Like, oh, actually the CIA sent Wallace Simpson in. You want to want to watch that. And honestly, can I tell you my favorite piece of Wallace Simpson related pop culture? is the second, hold on, I got to, okay, Spy War Red. Sean, you have to say it until the end.

So it's this second book in a series, the Spy War Red series, which are written by, oh, sorry, we don't have time for this now? No, Sean doesn't care about, much like Guy Ritchie, Sean doesn't care about women's interests. Okay, so the Spy War Red. Nazi royal family members is not in my interest said. The Spy War Red is the first book, and it's written by Aline Countess of Romanonis. And she was a CIA agent, like before it was even the CIA. CIA. OSS. And then she gets trained.

She gets sent to Spain. She does some spying. Then she marries a Spanish count. And so she becomes the countess of Romanones. And then she's reactivated by the CIA and gets sent to Wallace Simpson's house. And I think Wallace, this is after they've advocated there in France. So now she's the Duchess of Windsor. And they're doing like light CIA work together.

So there is historical. Anyway, Debbie is not good. The point is that the story, despite it, Sean's belief is an interesting one, which is why they've made much content about it. It's not really that interesting. They were just like Nazis and not great people. But it is not a love story. But what's cool in this film is Oscar Isaac is in it. Yeah. Very early Oscar Isaac movement. And the costumes are nice. The spy wore red. It's pretty good. That's all I have that's all I've got for you. I mean, this is it. This is the end. She doesn't do, it's been 15 years since W.E. and no movies. Oh, well, they always cast 60-year-old women in movies

10 times a year. She is incredibly wealthy. You're talking about funding movies. Maybe she's not interested anymore. People's interest changed. She fell out of love. She didn't stick with the game. You know, like this is,

are you a real one or are you not? Madonna? Make another movie. I guess she didn't want to. I guess she left that and Guy Ritchie behind and is focusing on the music. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

I mean, look, there are some of the best films, short films of our lifetime that Madonna made and they're called music videos like we said before go watch some of David Fincher's greatest work

Oh Father is an underseen David Fincher directed Madonna video that's quite good and quite weird It's true Really good stuff What's your favorite Madonna video? I mean Vogue But hung up really

made an impact on me phenomenal And I liked your recreation Thank you so much I thought I nailed the outfit You nailed the outfit and the editing on that one was, it was spot on. Corey McHawnell really nailed that.

Yeah, I mean, there's so, the one with Ali G. Where he's the limo driver. I mean, it's funny that it just her skills in the music video and the image making, and she obviously works with like other great directors on those, but Jonas Ackerelund can be like collaborative and make something so visually memorable that just does not really seem to translate. to feature scripted films at all. It's just a different thing.

I think it's probably notable that Evita was so successful for her and that she got good notices for it because it's her applying the same rules. This kind of like over-dramatized style of performance, which works so well when you're singing, express yourself. And doesn't work as well when you're asked to portray like a kind of quiet nuance in certain dramatic movies or comedy. You know who's a great example of someone who's a big, loud performer

and an incredible actress. Corny Love. Okay, I thought you were going to say Lady Gaga. You know, and a lot of her best acting is not necessarily in the mode of how she's seen as a star, too. That's what I'm saying, like, People v. Larry Flint, she's incredible. A man in the moon, she's 200 cigarettes. I mean, she's made some really great films, and she's actually a really, really good actress. I think it's, she maybe should have or could have had a bigger and longer Hollywood career.

Probably. If people didn't hate women. I love it. Is that what it is? Welcome. I love women. It must be nice for you. I do.

Just alighting through the world. Dada to the AMC. Hello, Mr. Fennessee. Welcome. That's not because I'm a man. It's just because I'm there all the time. It's true. And also because his name is on the Stubbs membership.

That's right. Yeah, they have to address people by name. They check your ID on us. I once saw them trying to check a truck. 12 year old's ID for the AMC stuff. He gives his library card? They were like, he has to have an ID. I'm so angry. I intervened.

I was like, let this child experience the great works. The great works were which film. It was probably like, I don't know. Not Jumanji, what was the other movie with Jack Black and Paul Rudd? Anaconda. Anaconda, probably. Anaconda, don't want. Yeah.

I'm really jealous you guys are. seeing sheep detectives without me. That's how I'll close them. We're not going to the same theater now. We need to go to a different theater. Okay. I'm sorry to tell you. It's okay.

I have to go to the west side. Yeah, that's the choice that you made. It is. Well, I feel good about it. Okay. How many movies are you doing now in a row? I'm seeing three movies today right after this. I'm going to see the sheep detectives.

I'm going to see pre-screen a can film that I can't reveal. And then I'm going to see Mortal Kombat too. That sounds really harrowing. Yeah. I'm going to see one. Wait, too. What are you saying? Sheep detectives.

And then maybe I'll show my sons some of the great Madonna works in the form of songs. Show them the truth or derisina where she gives fellatio to a Evian. It's not an Evian bottle. It's a French mineral water. Vichy. Sorry, I want to be correct about that. Okay. You guys, what an absolute July and pleasure this has been to spend this time with you

and talk about the filmography of Madonna. Thank you for coming on the Bandsplain podcast. and for watching some, if not all of these films, to do this with me. Thanks for having us. It's an honor. Come back next week for a new episode of Bansling. If you liked what you heard today,

subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine. Our guests today were Amanda Dobbins and Sean Fennessey. This episode was produced by Rob Sunderman and edited by Adrian Bridges with help from Justin Sales. Video production by Sarah Reddy. Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delvec and me, Yossi Sala. and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Costantino and Jennifer Flavin,

and graciously recorded by Carlos Delagher in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to our producer emeritus, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and also Sean Fennacy and once again, My King, Goop Kitchen. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bansplain, on Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Yeah, we did go really, we went fast into that.

I was like, wow. I thought we were like wasting time. I thought they were waiting for us. Okay, now the green light is on. Okay.