When Folklore Meets Colonial Horror: Mathilda Zeller's It Looks Like You in the Dark
00:00 This week I got to talk with Matilda Zeller about her new horror. It looks like you in the dark. It's very creepy. It is very unnerving. And it's also a really good example of both environmental and ancestral horror. Here's like a short synopsis. In a remote and Yupiat village in Alaska, Tapisa must infront both an ancient legend and the threat of a new mining operation when her sister mysteriously disappears. As she searches the dark main Arctic for answers, she unconscious. covers terrifying truths about colonial exploitation, family secrets, and a deadly creature that takes the form of those we love. If you thought Leviticus was just like such a fascinating concept, it is very different than that movie, but it is that same concept of like, what do you do when an
00:49 entity or when a horror takes on the look of someone that you trust? So there are just levels to the word and creepiness going on in this book and she shared a lot about some interesting family lore that kind of inspired this story so let's hear from my telva so when i was first pitched it looks like you in the dark um i had just seen a movie called leviticus where and i think they even use that as a comp where these two boys are found having a relationship and they kind of try to exercise it out of them. And so it was horror with this idea of the horror entity comes to you as someone you love and trust. And that is terrifying. And so then I got the pitch for this book. And I was like, oh, yeah, give me more of that. So I am so excited to talk about this book. I feel like there are so many
01:49 different things we could talk about. And yeah, I'm just thank you for coming on so we can. Oh, thank you. I'm really excited to you. I think this is going to be a lot of fun. Yeah. So before we totally dive into the book, I always do want to get to know about you a little bit as a writer as well. So what was your journey to writing like? Did you always know you wanted to write a book? Is that new for you? Yeah, I always wanted to write. I always did write for as long as I've been able to write. I've been writing fiction. I've written about a novel a year since 2008. Mostly like while my kids have been sleeping. Yes. So it's just really exciting to be breaking out right now. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. How has your writing process developed over time? So do you, I mean,
02:55 it's the typical plot or pants or question, but also just in general, like, is there, is there a common thread for every book for how you write, or is there a book different for you? So it has definitely been a learning curve, right? The first novel I wrote, I just thought I could just sit down and make things up as I go, and it was a little bit of a train wreck. And I also just realize that if I don't plan at least somewhat, you just have so much more work in the revision process. You try to make it make sense.
03:35 But then, you know, you can go to the other extreme as well where you outline everything and then it's kind of boring. And then when you get other ideas, you feel like you can't diverge because this was the plan, which also doesn't work. Right. So over the course of, I guess, almost the last 20 years, I've, you know, I've figured out how to strike a balance that works for me between having a good idea of, you know, where we're going and how we're going to get there and being okay with getting a lot of extra ideas along the way and leaving comments on the margins, like, go back and set this up in the first two thirds of the book. Right. Right. right?
04:19 I think what you were doing all along. Yes. Yes. I always wonder about that. I'm like, surely at least some of, I've also heard authors say like, oh, I didn't even realize I was setting it up. It was in my subconscious. But like, they'll be like, but some of the things I did like proactively go back
04:36 and add in. And it is always fun as a reader, like getting to the end and being like, oh, so that's why that little thing was in the first chapter, basically. Right, right. That gun on the wall. Why did we spend? Yeah. Yeah.
04:52 That's a really exciting thing is when you're in the last half or the last third of a story, and you get an idea. And when you go back to set it up, you realize that a lot of things are already setting it up. But you didn't realize worse. Yeah. That has to just feel entirely magical. Yeah, it really is. And I think that we don't give our subconscious enough credit.
05:18 for the that it is that, you know, is happening in the background. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Do you do anything with, like, getting to know the characters beforehand, or do you kind of, like, dive in and get to know them? A little bit of both. Yeah. Sometimes a character barrels in fully formed because it's either an individual or a lot of individuals we know like that.
05:49 So we feel very familiar with who they are and how they would behave in any given situation. Right. Or you're writing and you have to take a step back and, you know, weigh things out and figure out what, you know, how would they actually respond here? So what was your inspiration for, or like, what was your first, like, idea moment that started this book?
06:21 I mean, there's definitely the short story. Yes. So with the short story, I really wanted to write an indigenous story for Never Whistle at Night. And my grandfather, my Inupac grandfather that I had lived with in elementary school and in high school and had told me all these stories, he had been dead for 10 years. And so I went online. It was always a bad idea.
06:50 I wanted to back check things online against my memory. And one of the first things that came up was an article by a Jim Vandergriff in the Heritage of Kansas. And he had gone to my mother's hometown of Cotsabue, Alaska, for work. and just casually tells the reader that he extracted the story of the Kushduka from a local girl from the high school that he was driving around in his truck alone in a rainstorm at midnight. Okay. As a son-up.
07:30 You know, in a in town for a work trip. Yeah. You're just going to take teenage. girls out for joy rights what what are you doing you know um and so and he and he wrote about her in such condescending terms and it was just the whole thing was upsetting um so i wanted to retell it from the girls perspective yeah yeah yeah kind of like that reclaim it um and of course the whole reason that she doesn't want to talk about the kushduca at night is because when you talk about it at night, it tends to show up.
08:12 So they're natural. Boy does it. Yeah. I said boy does it. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's very terrifying and it's very atmospheric.
08:26 So like starting with the atmosphere, we're kind of in it. We're in a village, but also it's like an isolated village. It is winter and there's snow, which. I loved because I am in Indiana and it's going to be 82 here today. So I was like, at least I can read a book where it's cold. I know it would be differently cold. But so I loved that. But also the, what I think really added to the atmosphere too is that we know they're running out of hours of sunlight per day. So now this like scary entity is kind of like encroaching. And upon themselves and they're kind of almost always in nighttime as we would consider nighttime
09:15 darkness-wise so was that was that intentional to like really ratchet it up that much with the setting yes absolutely i mean you know when you have creatures that only show up when it's dark out and you're moving into a season where it's dark out 23 and a half hours a day Yeah. That's a special kind of feeling. Yes. I was like texting my friend when I started it. I was like, I love that I get to feel cold.
09:48 It's really creepy and unsettling from the beginning. But like, whoa, 23 and a half hours of dark. I mean, in some ways, I would love it. Not with an entity involved, though. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So how did you start building out like,
10:06 the main character and all of the people in her life as well. I was trying to think if I could list all of them. But how did you kind of like get the cast of characters together? They were somewhat heavily based on people I know. Oh yeah. Yeah. So, you know, my mother and her brothers and And of course, my grandfather and generations prior to him for 10,000 years were all in that region. And so growing up, I heard a lot, a lot of stories about things that they did and things that happened to them and my grandfather and to my great-grandmother. And so everybody felt familiar.
10:59 I wanted, and it was fun to write about familiar people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Then we kind of get into, so this mining company has basically come in because they know that they're precious, is it precious earth metals? Yeah. And they're like, we need these for computers.
11:22 And like, we know that the other like white men who came through here before like forced labor on you and caused a lot of health problems even, but we're going to be different. We're really, we're going to be different, guys. We're not like other minds. Exactly. Exactly. We're not motivated by capitalism at all. Not at all.
11:49 We care about you guys. Yeah. So then we have, so this gives us a, I think it's cool how horror can do a lot of things. So there's also like the very like almost creature feature. I almost wouldn't call it that. But there is. like a literal kind of like monster a supernatural monster but we also have so the social horrors of the way they are treated um by other people so what is it like balancing both sides of that
12:20 in this book um it was it was a lot of fun um it was fun to think about uh the the parallels and differences between an ancient folkloric monstrous threat and a modern colonialist capital's threat? Yes. How are these things like and how are they different? Yeah. Yeah. And they have plenty of crossover. And I think it was interesting.
12:53 I don't think this is too spoilery to get into, but if it is, we can cut it out. but tapisa has a conversation with uh i think it's her grandma um where she's talking about going to college versus like she feels like she needs to stay here and like fight for the land and protect it and like kind of be the rebel there who's going to be like no we need to do something about this and not have them here and her grandma kind of talks to her about like you need to you should go to college you should go do these things. You go into business. You become the people in charge of these things so that these people have like an
13:38 awareness and aren't doing this to us. And I thought that was a really like especially she's young. But it's a lot to like take in to hear all of that. But I always think it's interesting and good when we talk about the fact that there is a wide range of ways that you can help your kids. community benefit your community and fight for your community. But it can feel so conflicting and so confusing. And like, maybe I don't want to leave my village though, but is that the best way I can help them? And so what was kind of interesting to you about like diving into that?
14:15 Yeah. I mean, I feel like there's there's definitely a tension, right, between your, your touch at home and feeling like not only like you want to stay there, it's comfortable and, you know. You love it for your reasons. Yeah. Right. It's home. And you also maybe feel like you're, it's like you have to stay there to make sure things are okay or to be there when they're not.
14:44 Like you've got to hold it together. You know, you've got your little sister and she can't just be abandoned there with your mom. Right. Right. So you have all of that. But then, you know, in order. What are, you know, that other feeling like that vulnerability that if you've never been outside of the village, if you've never gotten an education, you're, you're systemically more powerless.
15:11 Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you may not be able to command the credibility that you need to do what you want to do. So, you know, and what I've noticed with like, again, the previous generation, my mother and my uncle's is, like, my mother left. She wanted a college education, but she, she joined the army because she, you know, to get the, the I bill. Right. But eventually she came back, you know, she, they always end up, you know, they went all over. the place in their in their adult lives and their careers but right now almost everybody is back in Alaska like they just keep coming back and she came back as a you know a you know therapist
16:07 mental health professional to help with you know those things in her hometown and in her village yeah that's just that's like incredibly helpful because it's like some therapists could still be good therapist but wouldn't understand personally the situation. So that is powerful that she can go back and like have like her, oh, I mean, I don't want her to have had her own experience with it, but it does make her a more powerful therapist probably for them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, most of the things that people are dealing with are things that she dealt with growing
16:45 up there. Right. Yeah, definitely. So the kind of the folklore element of it, this this kind of ambiguous entity is terrifying. Like there were, I really tried to walk around, um, spoilers. But there were times when I was reading it when I would like wake up and I'd be like, wait, why did I wake up? It is something bad about to happen.
17:15 So it sounds like you had kind of heard some folklore about it. Was there any other research you did for it? And did it ever scare you when you were writing it? There are a few things in there that are not specific, like, originating to our tribe. Like that now comes from much further east. Throat singing does too. But I kind of wanted to integrate other elements from other
17:49 Inuit people. Yeah. In part because, you know, I think there needs to be a lot of intertribal solidarity, but also because it's just like really, really cool. Yes. Yeah. And it's like it could have had experiences with all of those people too. So.
18:12 Yeah. Yeah. intertribal relationships and trade and stuff, particularly before the Cold War. When they cut off that, like, U.S.-Russia border, it actually destroyed a lot of things, a lot of relationships, and it was really sad. It's very sad. Well, Sipisa's relationship with her sister is very important to the novel as well. And kind of like you said, their mom is.
18:43 not the most present and capable mother. So there's a lot going on there. She's kind of functioning as a surrogate mother in some ways. And she really cares about her, but what was it like for you to dive into those messy female family relationships? it was uh it was cathartic um yeah it definitely was messy and it was sad at times but it's also just i think um things that are important to think about and talk about and write about because you know it's they they're everywhere and um yeah it's really nice when other people who have endured similar dynamics can read them and feel seen. Yeah.
19:43 There also seems to be a little bit of a focus on the things that Tapisa has inherited and then maybe thinks about herself and it might be negative about herself as well. And so in some ways there are elements of coming of age. like she's kind of grappling with her, even just like her ancestral trauma and then like what that all means for her life at present. And was that kind of always there in your mind as like what you kind of wanted to explore, especially with like an ancestral entity? Yeah, definitely. I think that are, I think that both the good and bad choices of our ancestors have they care they just you know inherently carry more weight and impact on our lives than
20:36 we like to think you know yeah but I mean if you ever sit down and think about it like you know knowing that your great-grandparents did this or raised your grandparents this way and therefore your grandparents did this and therefore your parents did this I mean that has you know this guy a hundred years ago, the things they chose impact how you are raised and who you've become. Yes. Kind of terrifying. It is. It is, especially for anyone who has a difficult relationship with, like, their parents and then maybe their grandparents, there are, I don't know why I'm acting like, that's not me I talk about on the podcast.
21:21 But yeah, it's, it's, sometimes it's, it can feel overwhelming being like, I was born from those people. Like, what? Yes. So that's my experience. I'm not putting anything on you or the book or anyone else. But yeah, it's, that's something that I think that's probably a big reason why I'm intrigued by it in books. There's a book called The Hunter's Daughter. There are many others that kind of use the setup of like the main character's father was a notorious serial killer and then stuff starts happening and someone is staging the bodies like his and like a lot of the tension in the book too is like she's like she's a sleepwalker and she's like am i doing this because i'm connected to him or will i eventually turn out like there's all of that tension and it is scary
22:13 when you feel like you're very different and maybe more evolved than your parents but like sometimes that tension is there right right right And I mean, I think it's easy for people to fall into two extremes. Like either they will romanticize and fetish eyes the grandeur and nobility and heroism of their forebears. Or they'll be like, oh, my gosh, like, this is such a mess. And one can kind of lead to narcissism. and, you know, repetition of really bad generational cycles. And then the other can be helpful for breaking those cycles,
22:58 but can also sometimes be really depressing. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, because you can't do anything about it. There's literally nothing to change about the past. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
23:12 So, yeah, like just everybody has to figure out what their relationship is to, to that past and decide how they're moving forward from it. Yeah. Yeah. And did you pick, because it takes place in, is it the early 2000s, right? Or is it late 90s? Okay, 90s. So I'm assuming some of that choice was because, like, they were coming to mine for
23:42 elements for computers. Was there any other reason you wanted to set it in that time period? Yeah, so, you know, there's a lot of tremendous amount of environmental and also like public health harm that can come from open pit lead mining. Yeah. But the physical harm that arises from exposure to rare earth elements happens a lot faster. And it's a little bit more dramatic. So for reasons of timeline and plot, rare earth elements made more sense. And since that came into high demand in the early 90s, when computers, personal computers were becoming more common, it just made sense to make it like that.
24:30 Yeah. Yeah. And were you drawn to or do you like also read like that there is, I feel like there's more environmental or ecological horror lately? Were you kind of drawn to that for this one? Have you read like, was that always interesting to you? How did that part come about? Yeah. I mean, I've always been very invested in environmental concerns.
24:57 Yeah. I think environmentalism blends itself to horror very, very well. Yeah. Because we've seen what happens in environmental disasters, the people into these really fragile ecosystems that sustain us. And so, you know, I wanted to get into that, you know, because it just made sense with the story. But yeah, I do love eco-horror and I'm wanting to read a lot more of it. Yeah.
25:35 I was going to say, oh, there's also the tension between like the elders and this new generation, which is common. like everyone's bringing very different formative experiences to the table yeah and I I thought it I thought it was good though because it's even still felt like the younger generation with the old the elders they trusted and felt safe with like they were still open to hearing from them um even though the perspective is very different and so I thought it was like a good way to see how like those differing perspectives can't exist together and you can also be like respectful of like wanting to understand someone's perspective. So was like writing the dynamic of this like generational spread as well kind of important to you from the beginning? Yeah. Yeah. Like our tribe has a formalized like
26:28 list of values that literally it's to that which makes us who we are. And one of them is respect for elders. But I mean, at least for me. I think that respecting your elders or honoring your parents doesn't necessarily require agreeing with them or always doing what they want you to do.
26:55 Right. I think one of the best ways that we can respect them is to you know, lead our lives in the best possible way we can, which they might not always agree with. Yeah, totally, totally. I mean, that's going to happen. it's going to happen no matter what we're not going to all agree on everything uh so with with the
27:23 with the scares basically um did you was it as someone who doesn't totally know tons of the folklore was it were there some things like that you were kind of crafting together that were like oh it would be fun to pull this in like did you kind of like do research but also like add some other things in for yourself um yeah like when i'm writing um you know i when i when i have an idea for a story i'm not thinking about themes at all um but as i'm in the act of writing it i'm sorry that's when i start to realize that there are themes and there are patterns and there are yeah this is getting at something right and as those things are right and as those things are rose, the folklore, it just made a lot of, oh, that reminds me of this story. So we're going to put that in
28:20 here. That reminds me of this story. I'm going to go in too. Yeah. I didn't make up any of the folklore, but I did retell some of it and possibly reinterpret some of it. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I love reinterpretation or retelling. Not that it's like directly that. Is there, what do you think, and not that you're a monolith or that there is a monolith for indigenous horror, but what do you think is like interesting or relevant or works really well to bring indigenous experiences into a horror genre? So I'm in graduate school. And I recently attended a conference. it was like a very interdisciplinary conference for indigenous scholars.
29:18 And there were people there who were presenting from all over North America, some in Central South America, some from Guam, some from indigenous tribes in Japan and China and South Asia. And they talked about their histories and colonialism and the intersection with their studies and research. And as everybody told their stories, what really, really struck me was how it's the same story over and over and over again. No matter which tribe it is and which colonizing power it is, the colonizer does the same thing. There's no imagination in it. It can look different. Sometimes the details are different.
30:09 but there's an archetypal story that is happening and that doesn't vary anywhere in the it really doesn't like I think to your point like a lack of originality is a part of the problem right like yeah it's and like I start to feel like it's also like that core insecurity of like, I don't have original ideas. I don't have, like, yeah, I think there's a lot of envy that gets turned into, like, conquering people or civilizing people. And it's like, don't do that just because you're bored with yourself. Right. Not to oversimplify it, but yeah, it's so frustrating. If you, if you have a need to control or subdue other people, it's worth asking yourself. yourself, why? What is the void and the lack in your life or, you know, or systemically in
31:14 your society that this is what you're driven to do? And I think the best response to that is comes down to the intensely varied and diverse and creative and original ways that, you know, that make us who we are, right? creativity and then you know an acknowledgement and celebration of differences is such a tremendous threat yeah it is kind of authoritarian um you know domination yes well the worst is when they say it's because god told them to do it and you're like oh i'm sure that's what a loving God who created this world would want you to do. That totally makes sense. We're like leaning into that here too much. On your God radar because yes if someone is if someone when trying to convince
32:25 you to do something or go along with something says they heard it in prayer you're allowed to question it for yourself. They're allowed to believe that and you're allowed to question it and be like I don't know. I don't think that would happen. Yeah. Yeah. There's some, there's like religious trauma going out at that point. Was there anything as you were writing that surprised you that doesn't give any spoilers? And it could be anything. It could be about the actual book or it's just like a realization you had while you were writing it. The thing that surprised me the most was that the more I wrote the story, the more I wanted to. I kept, the more I wrote, the more I kept remembering that I wanted to tell,
33:16 that I wanted to make sure it was included in the book. Yeah. The title is amazing because it even just instills a horror feeling. You're like, wait, what? And I know authors don't always have, they don't always get to pick the title. But what was it like landing on that title? It was really exciting. The working title was Kishduka for a long time.
33:44 Oh, okay. Yeah. And then actually two years ago on Halloween, I met with my agents and my editor because, you know, marketing was like, no one knows what a Kishduka is. Right. You can put the word in the title,
34:02 but there has to be other words or framing or something. And we brainstormed a very long list. And I actually did come up with this title. That's always great. Right. And there was some debate about it. Like it almost didn't make the list because some people felt like it sounded more like a title for a thriller than for a horror novel. But to be fair, it is kind of a thriller.
34:27 There's a, you know, missing sister plot, people dying plot, a mysterious. deaths like um i think on the mcmillan website it is listed as a thriller and then on the horror website is really so yeah it's one of those where i would call it like horror forward just because there's like the supernatural fears but i late i love lately when there's horror but then like there's also like a crime aspect to it crime thriller i love that genre mashup. So good. And the cover is beautiful too. I love, I love like the imagery of it helps you kind of set up for the really atmospheric setting as well. Were there, I'm assuming there are probably multiple versions of that as well. Yes, I was so deeply impressed with Tor the way
35:29 they went above and beyond in, you know, I didn't think that I would be consulted on the cover at all. And when they did do it, they came to me with all of this, like, they wanted a photographic cover. And then they went and they got Inuk and Inupac photographers. And I was just, oh, wow. I was just so thrilled that they were, you know, going out of their way to tap into the talents and skills of indigenous people. And the photography that is on the cover is by Brian Adams, who is in Ypacan, you know, from my tribe. That is so special. No. So wonderful. I love that. That is so cool. That's, that's awesome that they were like,
36:22 you know, let's keep the spirit of the book, even in the cover, essentially. I love that. Oh, your pin name. Can we talk about your pin name a little bit? Yeah. So Matilda is from my Emi Puck maternal great-grandmother, who had my grandfather as a teenager and was a single mother in the Arctic for his first five years. And she was just incredible. She was a subsistence hunter, fisher. she was an entrepreneur she opened she opened like the first general store trading post in the region yeah she was just incredible um her you know when she did marry a fight when my grandfather was five um she she married this white guy who turned out to be impotent um yeah so she had other you know with his
37:23 full knowledge and understanding she went out and got other baby daddies um oh i love this and polyandri actually is a traditional practice uh that parallels exactly how she carried out her family life um yes so um my uh step great grandfather lorenz shirk um Alaska is now full with people who have his last name and none of his jeans. That is fascinating. Kind of like we reverse colonized him. You kind of did. That's amazing.
38:09 All of his white privilege. Like my grandfather, there was no high school in Alaska. And so, you know, he sent my grandfather down to live with his family in Oregon so he could get a high school education and he made sure he got a college education and he's probably one of the first alaska native you know first inupac people to do so um he was an incredibly devoted father and he fully knew that none of those kids were his oh my gosh man yeah yeah so it's yeah and anyway she was amazing and then zeller is um from my um askinazi Jewish great-grandmother who was labor trafficked by the Catholic Church and, you know,
38:59 traffic to be farm labor for some people in Lafayette, Indiana. What? Oh, my, I live in Indiana. Right. Right. A quarter million children were labor trafficked out of New York City between 1880 and 1914. About 5% of Americans are descended from them, and nobody talks about. about it. Yeah, there's a lot we don't talk about and I am slowly making up for the gaps in my history. I've definitely heard like I've heard of like the 60 swoop and everything but like this one, that one is new for me. That is devastating. Right. And actually back to the subject of bad blood. The reason that nobody knows they came from orphan train riders is because there was
39:49 tremendous stigma around it. Like your parents were sinful or they were bad or you were bad and therefore they gave you up. So people who are orphan train writers didn't disclose that. You want to broadcast it. Oh, man. Yeah. That is rough. I just wanted to. Well, that's a nice tribute to both of them. Thank you. Yeah. Did you always want to write under a pin name or was it kind of because you wanted to pay tribute? Both. I mean, I have a lot of, no, other reasons that a lot of people have for pen names, but I also, you know, I just think that they were amazing women.
40:31 Yeah. I mean, it sounds like it, like very resilient women. Yes. For sure. Well, I was glued to this story. I got to listen to it. So if anyone loves audiobooks, I do highly recommend listening to it if you have that option. And I do.
40:52 I love that even with fiction and then conversations with authors who write the fiction, I am, like I said, filling in the gaps of the history that wasn't talked about. So I really love books like that. And so anyone who loves books like that as well is going to love this one. So as of the day that this is airing, you could go get your copies. go do it. But at the end, I do always want to ask if there are any authors or books that you love or always recommend, like, it can be anything. I mean, or anything you read recently. Oh, yeah. I really love, obviously, Stephen Graham Jones.
41:36 Yes. Sylvia Marino Garcia is incredible. Mexican Gothic was actually a huge inspiration. to see that perfect Gothic Moore story told beat for beat, but in a fully unconventional setting for that. And I was like, if she can do this in Mexico City, in rural Mexico, I can do it in rural Alaska, right? Oh, that is so cool. Yeah. I just read her book, The Intrigue, too.
42:05 Same, like, very, very fun Gothic horror. Right. So, yeah, no, they're great. Yeah, they've been. really I love both of their books. I need to fit time in for off the reservation here soon because I'm very excited for that one as well. I did see on good reads like it's kind of listed as a series. Is that the goal with it? Because it kind of had like the co-book valley above it. Yes. And the books in the books work as standalone books so you can pick up any of them.
42:42 But the next one's coming out in September, 2027. It's basically done now. And there's overlapping characters, but it mostly follows the child of one of the primary characters in this one. Yeah. And it deals with, you know, sexism and racism within academia, billionaires, cannibalism, calupilic that are like in you pack mermaids, you know, things. Ooh. Well, I am super excited for September 27 now. Where can you follow you to stay out to date so that they will also be aware of all the
43:29 stuff you're putting out? Instagram. Instagram is best. Yeah. Yes. Well, I will put that link in the show notes. and everybody should go read this if you're a horror fan this is perfect it's perfect timing for we're kind of in the season if you're a seasonal reader and thank you so much for coming on and talking about it yeah thank you so much for having you
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