Is the Identity That Made You Successful Holding You Back? 5 Patterns You Need to Break with Andrea Petrone
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01:35 That's $50 off your first year at monarch.com with code confidence. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, go to netsuite.com slash monahan. Get your free guide at net suite.com slash monaghan. Netsuite.com slash monaghan. The question is, what's the risk of staying where you are right now? Something was not working really at different levels. And I started to realize I wasn't able to name it either, but I knew that something was off about me.
02:05 So I hired a coach and she walked me through a new experience about myself looking at the mirror. And then I realized I was leading with an identity. It was outdated. They struggled to understand. It was really in their way. It was their own identity that was created along the time since they grew up in the professional environments
02:25 and that are never challenging. Whenever the pressure hits, if you are not used to deal with yourself first, the pressure will prevail. Come on this journey with me. Each week when you join me, we are going to chase down our goals. Overcome adversity and set you up for a better tomorrow.
02:43 I'm ready for my quota. Hi, and welcome back. I'm so excited for you to be back here today. You're going to love what we've got for you. We've got an amazing guest. His name is Andrea Petrone, known as the CEO Whisper. He has spent more than two decades in senior leadership roles himself, including CEO and managing
03:02 director, and now he coaches CEOs in senior leadership, teams at companies like Shell, Unilever, Takata. He hosts the World Class Leader Show and his new book, Reinvention at the top. The playbook for CEOs to lead under pressure is out now. Andreas, thank you so much for being here with us today. Thank you so much, Heather, for your kind of invitation. So looking forward to this conversation. Yeah, I am too. I love the topic of reinvention. It's so timely right now.
03:29 So let's start with a little bit about your background. By 35, you were leading organizations across several countries, and you say you started to feel invincible. And then came some setbacks. What happened and what did that reveal about you? Yeah. So we're really starting there, right? So that's really is the moment of failure. The moment of failure, but actually is the moment where, Everything started for me. So it's a great example or invention of my own story. And I would say, I think it's a source of the book when I was looking at. But, you know, and then going backwards, essentially what happened is I was one of those
04:09 people that had the privilege to work internationally very, very soon in my career. And when you work international, you have an opportunity to get to the heck, exposed to the bigger projects out there, big clients. And normally when for those organizations, they're, centralized leadership is always a good opportunity to demonstrate who you are and to make some sort of, you know, making a mark. And I think I did. So in the last, you know, in the next probably four or five years, I got to the top of the organization. It was a very fast-track career. So at the time, as you said, I felt like everything I touched, you know, turning into gold,
04:46 as people say. So that was a sort of a feeling ahead. And then, you know, as you can imagine, he led me to troubles, a number of troubles. Because at the thing, first time that I led an entire organization despite, it's not about experience, because I think I knew what I needed to do, but I did not realize how much my own identity, my previous experiences, my previous stories, my own perspective of leadership shaped me in a way that I show up in a very particular way in that moment. And I totally realized only later that was the not the right version that was in the right time. Because what I learned about leadership was not what it was needed at the time in the context
05:30 I was dealing with. But it was not an easy revelation because as always, you know, with the breakthroughs, it's not something that unless you are used to, you have the muscle. It's one of those things that happen by force, especially at the beginning. And the force was as many, I decided to hire a coach for the first time. And for me, a person of career achievements, successes. to say, what hell do I need a coach here? I don't need a coach.
05:57 I know exactly what I have to do. But something was not working really at different levels. And I started to realize, I wasn't able to name it either, but I knew that something was off about me. So I hired a coach, and she walked me through a new experience about myself looking at the mirror. And then I realized I was leading with an identity. It was outdated.
06:18 It was an identity that was based on my notion about leadership, what doesn't mean it at the top? That was totally inappropriate for what was dealing with at the time. And so thank you for sharing that story because I don't know if you know, but my background was in corporate America. I was doing incredibly well.
06:37 I was named one of the most influential women in radio and 30 days later I was fired. And that was my reinvention moment which seemed terrible. And I was petrified at the time, but it was actually a catalyst for me to step into something I never would have done otherwise. And then to learn I had to let go of this identity
06:57 that really wasn't mine to begin with. It was a facade I was putting on for other people because the team around me was asking me to do it and I was acquiescing. And I knew it didn't feel right at the time, but I couldn't imagine what was on the other side of it. So I stayed in that situation and it took getting fired, having a non-compete,
07:21 so I had to lead the industry where I had expertise to realize I need to completely reimagine who I can be now. And it's a very scary time. So I respect a lot that you went through that and that you chose to bring a coach on to work with you, someone who could give you some insight that maybe you didn't have. Yeah. And your story resonates a lot, a lot. Because especially when you come from an experience of successes, in whatever shape of form
07:49 you define success, it doesn't really matter. but you feel like you have the level of something happens to you. It's kind of somebody's invading your space. It's like somebody's telling you, actually, it was, as you said, it was a facet. There was nothing real about you, which, by the way, either for you, both for you and for me, there was not the truth, but that's the way how we started to, you know, have doubt about ourselves. Started to, you know, second guessing about how people think about us, projecting maybe a mask about where we are. So, you know, it created a sort of, you know, vicious cycle in terms of what could be.
08:26 And again, I can see, Heather, how many leaders they get to the top. That's why then I wrote this book, because, you know, many people get to the top because they are cute at what they're doing and they've been successful in what they've been doing. So that's why they're there. But most of the time, I've seen a lot of failures, even with top big CEOs, and I have a number of examples in the book because they struggle to understand. that was really in their way, was their own identity that was created along the time since they grew up in the professional environment and that they never challenged it because it was in service of them before and why they you know why should I change it now now that I'm at top
09:07 and that is a moment when everything started to change it which is a different story than yours mind but is just an example how how critical is this component of identity when it comes to lead to you. She's pitching in a moment like now where the pressure is hitting hard to everybody, where there is external forces. It doesn't really matter what the force is, but as we know, pressure is an internal mechanism. It's how we react to something. It's not the event itself. So when pressure hits, when expectations are high either from others or that we impose to ourselves, self-imposed, that is when I started to see leaders, you know,
09:46 disconnected who they are or going back to the default. and maybe that default is not what they need right now. One of the things that you talk about in the book that I really appreciate as a psychology major in college is some of the voices or stories that we're telling ourselves at a later age that are really rooted in our childhood. And I know you talked about your family and coming from stability and safety
10:10 and how that impacted you as a leader. And I know you shared about a female CEO who could still hear her father's voice and was still acting on it. How do you work with people to help them understand that that isn't their truth any longer and they can let go of that? Yeah. And to some extent, everybody has a similar story, I think. The most important point to me, Heather, is the importance, and I know everybody talks about it,
10:39 but I think in this specific context is useful to bring it up, is the level of awareness. How much we are aware about the way how we set ourselves up for. for something. So it's, I mean, who we really are in that moment, right? Now, I have a strong perspective about it. The fact that for most people, especially at the top, the level awareness normally is not very high. And it's a function of authority,
11:05 is a function of ego, is a function of style, is a function of personality, it's a function of multiple elements. But the reality is the level of awareness normally lower. And when the awareness is lower, normally what happens is people, really struggle to read all the signals they are around them, either because they do the voiceover,
11:25 they talk over the others, they don't allow people to express, or they have their own idea in mind, and they're going to push forward. So that is a moment where I think it's important for people to realize is what is happening around us. Because otherwise, it is going to be very difficult to have that level of breakthrough and say, hold on a second.
11:45 You know, my past identity or the identity I have right now is not going to help me what I'm dealing with right now. I mean, you are an impressive, you know, speaker, author, entrepreneur. You came from corporate. For you, was your, it was a kind of an invention too, as it was for me coming from corporate. We had that, right?
12:04 It's a moment already think about our self and say, okay, our past identity is in service or what are you up to right now or there is a new version of our self that is required right now if we really want to succeed in a new context. For me, as the story of the female CEO, was a moment of realization, no, something has to shift it. And it starts with me.
12:24 And my personal story is an example. You know, as you said, I came from traditional middle-class family. You know, it was all about nine to five, no risk, you know. Now it's going to be even impossible. By the time, it was, you know, I have one job and just stay there, you know, and pay, you know, get your pension and nothing else. for me to succeed an entrepreneur, I needed to recreate a completely different identity. How could you trying to be a successful entrepreneur in a context like that? But again, you know, for us, I think it's a little bit easier because we probably see that
13:01 in front of us, we are visionary, we see the future what they could be for us, and that's probably what drives us, right? When people are in the CEO space in that role, it's slightly difficult and it different because they're dealing with a short-termism. They're dealing with what is in front of it. They're dealing with what the board is asking them to do. So having that moment of breakthrough is not easy. And even the time for strategic thinking at a corporate level, good luck with that.
13:29 Because, you know, most of the people that work with, they're working like crazy, almost 10, 12 hours per day just to get everything's done. In that spirit, in that context, how can you start really thinking about inventing yourself? So no awareness or low awareness, no time to think strategic, you know, maybe a clear, you know, vision and purpose in front of you. These are all, unfortunately, conditions for not having that moment in your life. So when is it that you see a senior leader not in a situation like ours where you're thrust into, you know, forced, forced to make that transition and realization? when it isn't that dramatic, how does someone get the wake-up call that they need to do something? What is that?
14:16 So here's what I think is very interesting, Heather, is normally the performance, meaning the results of your results or organization, they are a great indicator, but they're not coming immediately, right? Because you see the results normally a little bit too late. But what you can see, going back to the point I made it before, there are some incredible, I don't know how many signals you can read every single day in organization. They are telling you something, but you're not reading them. And there are maybe is a board that started to be a little bit more disconnected, you know, from you.
14:51 Or the board, the chair is not picking up your call anymore. Or when you're in a conversation, the chair is say, well, thank you, but have a different direction about something. Or, you know, let's name the executive team, which is, is probably one of the biggest constraints of most of CEOs, right? Getting aligned the right executive team working with them. And you see executive team, they are probably they're not connected. They say something different when they go back to their own place.
15:16 They started to build or drive different priorities. Or at some macro level inside organization, you start to see people, they are disconnected, people they don't follow anymore. You know, people resign. A number of different things. They are giving you an indication. in terms of how people are connected to you as a leader. But sadly, I think most of the reaction of people
15:40 is not taking responsibility for that. So it's primarily, you know, pointing fingers and blaming, well, it's the executive team. There is no, they're not aligned. It's the board. They don't understand my vision. So I invite you to consider, you know, to the audience that is listening and watching this episode,
15:55 is I invite you to consider what can you be responsible for in terms of the message that you're creating, the presence that you are demonstrating every single day because there is something there that given the role that you have, the power that you have, clearly is a function of you. But again, without that,
16:14 it's impossible. And I'm sure you are aware or you know that it's impossible to coach somebody that is not coachable. When people say people that are not coachable, it's not because they are bad people. People are not coachable because they are not aware and not interesting to become aware about something that could be blind spot,
16:34 a weakness, or et cetera. You know, if you come across with CEOs or leaders, they are a little bit like that. And it's going to be very difficult for them to become aware about their identity and what is doing for them or not doing for them. Andrea, I think this is so interesting and I wonder if you've thought about this much.
16:51 But as you're talking, I'm picturing relationships. I'm picturing stay-at-home moms and their kids going to college. But these are the things that you're outlining It's truly the same for CEOs, and I know that's specifically who the book is about, but it can be applied to anybody. Absolutely.
17:11 But the book has been written for the CEOs, but as we write in the book in multiple occasions, and we're saying this to the media, this book really is for everybody has a responsibility in life. It doesn't really matter because, I mean, the CEO is the position of the book, but everybody has a huge responsibility, a weight of responsibility in whatever shape or form.
17:33 He's feeling that. He's feeling the pressure. And you talk about being a mom and, you know, working at the same time, be a mom, you know, and having kids and children. The pressure doesn't change because the pressure is an internal mechanism. It's a reaction of something that we are dealing with. So the invention is useful for everybody that has a moment of truth or a moment of something that is happening.
17:58 I said before when I said about me. me, I felt like something was off. And sometimes it's difficult for people to name it because you don't know what it's about. But you know that you say something maybe in a podcast or maybe in front of your kids. That's not really what you would like to say. Or it's not clear enough. So people, they are, you know, they have misunderstanding. They're not clear in terms of what really is important to you. We all live in that moments of lack of clarity. You know, we're sharing what is not needed. And if we talk about behaviors, one way, you know, one time we show up in one way, and next time we show up in a different way. And then maybe we tolerate behaviors. They are out
18:39 of our standards, but we do any way because it's comfortable. Maybe it's the right things to do at the time. So you are 100% right. It's not only for COs. It's a moment for everybody that is feeling the level of pressure and responsibility at the same time. Yeah. And like what you said, But sometimes it's more eye-opening when you look at it through the lens of somebody else that's different from you because then you can say, oh, wait a minute, that's me too. The employees starting to have conflicts and resign similar to children at home, acting up and not following through own behavior. I mean, you can just see so many analogies. So I love looking at this through the lens of the CEO. Okay, you cite research that most CEOs feel lonely and that many experience and
19:25 imposter syndrome while still feeling fully competent, how can those both be true at once? And I know that's also going to be surprising for a lot of people listening. We tend to put CEOs on a pedestal. Yeah, so that's fascinating, right? So it's fascinating because I have the privilege to work with CEOs, not only a one-to-one level, but also I have a private community of CO. So we spend a lot of time to get a very private, safe, you know, conversations. And of course, I will not name people that are in community, but I can guarantee Heather how many times they come in conversations saying, I don't know what to do about X, I don't know what to do about why. They are really, really thinking through decisions that are taking every single time.
20:12 And I can guarantee none of them is sure about the decision they're taking. Either they have a good instinct or they're, you know, looking at the data or judgment, whatever you call it, but it's not a guarantee for success or, guarantee for having taken a good decision. So is there, I mean, this idea that CEOs particularly, or, you know, if we want to expand it to politician, other spaces in our society, those people with a lot of power. We have this idea, which is totally wrong, it is my experience. They have all the answers. They know what to do. They are surrounded by everybody. A lot of people, they can really comfort them, support them, giving great advice. That's way,
20:55 far from the truth as well as having a privileged life. Maybe some politicians actually have that. But the CEOs that, at least I know, they gravitated around me. These are people that are working like crazy. They're really working so many hours. And they're coming back home and they're bringing all the frustration, challenges,
21:17 doubts that they have with their partner, for example, because they don't have another way to say that. So the isolation is real, is strong Because it's interesting, it's a paradox. Because the CEOs, they are surrounded by so many people. But it's likely they are surrounded by nobody. Growing up, money in my house was scarce. And the conversations around it were a little stressful, to say the least.
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23:48 Building your online presence doesn't have to cost you thousands of dollars up front. You can start small and build as you grow exactly like I did. Hostinger, build your vision step by step. Go to hostinger.com slash confidence and use code confidence for 10% off now. So I think the work that we do, I do, is trying to give that comfort to them. Right now, the moment and time that we're living in with, with AI and the disruption that's happening in every business, are you seeing more than ever this self-doubt, this inability to move and make a decision,
24:36 or are you seeing people try to move faster and be more reactionary? I'm going to give you a different perspective about AI and leadership. And let's see whether there is in this video. I think it's less about confidence. I think it's more about, or maybe confidence by in the context of what kind of leadership is required in the world of AI. because there is a lot of conversation about AI and how AI is disrupting business organizations.
25:04 So we know that. We know that is the reality and it's going to be worse or bigger depending on whatever opinion people have about it. But what I'm interested is how is going to change a role of leader in a world of AI? That's what is interesting to me because in a world where AI
25:21 is going to become the content engine of our thinking, strategy, our organization. Well, that is going to affect a lot, a lot of experts in organization. NCOs, you might consider that they're experts in their game, you know, in what they do. How leaders, even functional leaders, by the way, think about all the functional leaders, they used to create strategy, bringing the content, bringing data, research, you know, doing all the stuff and they have created that sort of aura around them because they are the expert.
25:55 So what kind of identity is required in a world where that is fully delegated to a machine that is even better than us? How would you deal with that? How would you change your identity to become a leader that is needed in a world of AI? I don't think that question is properly answered, address it right now. First, because they don't even know yet how to use AI for the best. So it's not yet a solution that is clear. But most importantly, I don't think they're asking that question to themselves. But it's going to affect them because once they started to realize they are not the most experienced or expert into the room, they need to show up in a different way.
26:35 And that is an interesting challenge. I've seen two different sides of the position that you just brought up, which is I've seen some senior leaders completely want to immerse themselves secretly into learning AI so that they can appear that they know, you know, more in front of their employees. And I do understand that because they don't want to look like a leader that doesn't have the knowledge and they're fearful of what people think of them. I completely understand that. The other side just wants to shut it down and push it away because that's not right for our business. And it's interesting to see how people react. Even these highly successful people react under these immense uncertainty moments and pressure. And as you know, we can look back to the past couple of decades and we have so much data to show us.
27:24 that, you know, not responding at all and putting your head in the sand is so costly. It's unbelievable. Why is it that so many people, not just CEOs, will put their head in the sand when these big pressure moments come? I think it's a survival mechanism either. I think is, look, this idea of pressure is a privilege. And I love sport. I'm a sport person.
27:49 You are. I'm sure you are. And we have lived. we know with this incredible amazing quotes from sport coaches, you know, they said pressure is a privilege. I know how many times has been used, right? As an example, it's amazing. It's clearly amazing and it's clearly the privilege. But let's be honest. Let's be real. And when we are real, let's face it, you know, pressure, he drives stress. It drives burnout. He drives self-doubt. It drives a lot of things, unless, unless you can really deal conflict about it, which is difficult for everybody.
28:24 But I would say whenever the pressure hits, if you are not used to deal with yourself first, that pressure will prevail. So what you point into is put your head under the sand. That's sort of trying to disappear or disregard something because you're not comfortable to have into your war into discussion. It's a survival mechanism. But I mean, especially in the world of AI, I don't think it's possible anymore. maybe one or two years ago you could have said, well, it's one of those trends, it will disappear, you know, forget about it. No, no, it's going to be the future of everything.
29:06 It's already the future of our society. Now, I think what you're pointing to is equally important is how many CEOs or many old leaders will deal with AI but without becoming functional expert in AI? And that's to me is a different question, which I think is an important question. I'm not an expert in AI and I'm not even
29:25 interesting to become an expert and I'm going to use AI for whatever I'm trying to do, clearly yes, but again, I think what kind of a leader you want to be? You want to be an expert,
29:35 but again, at some level in certain roles, I think it's way more important to become a great orchestrator of people rather than being the hero into the room. But we both know that the previous generation
29:49 and there are few CEOs out there yet there yet, they are still thinking that is a hero game. They need to demonstrate they are a hero in everything that they do. I'm no interest in to heroes. I'm interested in to people. They are very good and get the most out of the others. So that's an interesting identity I would suggest considering a world of AI. That's so interesting.
30:11 It makes me think about the ability to be vulnerable as a leader and how important that can be because it empowers others to know they don't have to be an expert, in every, what role do you think vulnerability plays in shifting identity? 100%. I think it's such a huge role. You're right onto this. And I think I would say kudos to a lot of leaders. I think something has already shifted. So if you consider leaders even 10 years ago, let's not even go far, like 20, but let's say even 10 years ago, I think the level of vulnerability in the workplace was way, way lower than,
30:51 what is right now. So at least my experience, people, they are much more oriented to be vulnerable and meeting their mistakes, not always on everywhere, clearly. But I think there is already an orientation. I think that is just how humanity is becoming more central, I would say, into the business world. And I think there are a number of stories pictured during COVID, where a lot of CEOs, especially in tech companies, that have demonstrated how not to be human at work. That stories, they became viral in a positive way because they became like, I don't want to be that, right? I don't want to become like him.
31:29 So, you know, I think something is already shifting. And I think vulnerability is a perfect condition for that. It's a perfect condition for identity. Because if you are vulnerable about something to the extent that you're able to admit that, hey, guys, what I think is important to me is not important anymore right now. I thought about it. I was wrong. and now I think I should drive this organization in a different way.
31:51 And I'm going to demonstrate it. So how powerful that could be. As we all know, that builds trusting people. People there are, and I think there is also research in the book, but there are a lot of research out there too. They say the level trust and organization has been eroded, and we know that. But people trust more their leaders when their leaders are not only clear about what respect from them, but also because they are able to be vulnerable enough to become human
32:22 and to show their humanity organization. I have an amazing client every couple of weeks they do what they call pardon for the term, fuck up night. So what they do is spending time together and everybody needs to share the biggest mistakes they have made it. COs with their own people. How powerful is that? Because that is the learning. Yes, Sarah Blakely, when she Oh, yes. Spinks had the Friday oops meetings for the same reason. And that allowed her team to innovate, allowed her team to fail and feel good about it and celebrated. And she has been on the podcast and she shared the story that her father raised her such that when you came home every day after school, he wanted to hear one thing you failed at.
33:05 And he would clap. And if you didn't fail at something, it was upsetting. And it's just such a great way to flip the norm around and empower people so that they can grow. Such a great story. So in the book, I talked about Alan Mullali. So Alamulali, you know, the Ford, the CEO of Ford. He did that. So what he did is he came, when he became CEO Ford,
33:29 he came into an organization where people were even concerned to bring the bad news to the previous series. And he was so clear, going back to the book, the through line, the identity, message, and presence, it was so clear for him to say, I'm going to build an environment where we're going to be through, we're going to speak through to power. And we're going to raise every challenge that we have openly and transparently.
33:54 At the beginning, it was challenging because people were not used to it. And, you know, on a weekly kind of a dashboard, every project looks green. So, and he said, I'm not going to live here until things become red. Because if you don't say they're red, because something that you're not saying, that is true until one person said for the after months, it was not a quick fix, said, this project, my project is read. He celebrated that.
34:22 It clapped. So, you know, your story is Sarah remind me exactly that. I love that. That's such a strong leader. Okay. So the identity disconnect, walk us through the origin achieved and current identity, which one is usually in the driver's seat when things are going wrong? Yeah.
34:39 So is the achieved identity. That's what normally what we're. So the origin identity is how we grew up, is the set of values, education, stories from parents, from early childhood, you know, the teenagers' life. That is what we started to believe at that time. These are our beliefs they started there. And most of them became the core values. But something shifted and something shifted for people once they start their professional life.
35:08 And that professional life normally, as I said, is a beginning of. experiencing different type of events, leaders, mentors, conditions, observations, observation. Normally, all of that become, along the time, what I call it achieved identity, especially if we embedded for ourselves. We tested, we tried, it worked once, then I'm going to do rinse, repeat. I'm going to use that formula because it becomes our playbook until it doesn't. So that is the achieved identity. Now, the point I'm making into the book is once you become aware, once you're starting to challenging that
35:48 and say that is not in service anymore what you're dealing with, you can recreate whatever identity you want because that is the freedom that we have. That's the power that we have. And by the way, that doesn't mean again shifting your core values. The core values will always be there. But the identity might be, you know, the core value will underpin the identity. But the identity is who I decide to be as a leader right now.
36:12 now. What is the version of me that will not betray whenever pressure hits? That is the question I'm asking people in the coaching in the book. And then normally, when I work with leaders, it's a very introspective work. It's not easy because people, they tend to, as we said before, they tend to not realize that until somebody offer that perspective to them. And then they have the, you know, the wake-up call, the breakthrough, is say, oh, I never, consider about that. And they started to say, great, I want to keep this from that chief identity. But then I see X, Y, Z, for example, they're not in service right now. I can see now they're not useful. And they recreate something for the same. How power that could be. So that's the identity
37:00 part, which is one of the three pillars. I love that. You talk about quiet grief and letting go of the leader used to be. What can that grief look like for people so they can understand it? Yeah. And I think in the context of identity, when we do, that's exactly the exercise I told you. One of the question I want people ask and answer is, okay, what are the things that you are now happy or at least interested to let it go from your past experience as a leader, from your past identity? And that is a good question because people normally at the beginning, they say, no, no, because I cannot let it go because I'm so much attached to AIDS
37:47 and my story, my experience. But then when you start to go a little bit deeper, they start to say, well, maybe I don't need to be anymore the person that control everything. Maybe I don't need to be anymore the person that stick my nose into every conversation of my leadership team. Maybe I don't need to be anymore
38:05 the person that is afraid to say openly and transparently, you know, what doesn't work in my, team. So maybe I need to become now somebody that can actually embrace feedback and share it. I had a conversation with an amazing CEO. He said, I'm not used to give feedback to people. And that is part of my identity. And now I can recognize that. He didn't before. He said, there is a reason why I'm not giving feedback because I'm a people person and I come from very important religious values. And one of those values is I want to be nice with people.
38:41 can you already see the connection, right? So that value became so much ingrained into his identity. And now that's why he's not giving feedback. But until he realized through external factor, the lack of feedback was a limitation to the possibilities of their own people. Then he started to say, oh, now I can see why shifting my identity
39:07 could be in service of what my people are asking for. So that was a breakthrough, which, by the way, for us might be, yeah, it was easy to understand that. That doesn't work in a way. For people that have been doing this for 20 years in the same way, God knows, that's not easy. It's always so much harder to see these things in yourself, and it's so much easier to identify them in someone else. Exactly right. Exactly right. Always the way.
39:32 Okay, so there's five leadership inference that you go through. Can you walk us through the stoic achiever, corporate chameleon, proving child. and legacy follower and reward-driven climber. Which one do you see most often in leaders? Well, that is a good question. That's a very good question because these are the five archetypes that I define. It's always useful to have archetypes because the archetypes is a way for people to see themselves. And by the way, on the book, we explained the archetype, but also there is on the companion website,
40:04 so there are a reinventional atop.com. There is a scorecard. It's free where actually you can start testing yourself across the three. dimension and you will see where you're potentially where you fit and what kind of archetype. I think probably the one that I can see more of others is the stoic, the stoic archetype. The stoic is the one that is so much ingrain attached to the past. He doesn't know what let it go. He wants to keep doing.
40:36 It wants to be the hero. It wants to be the person, the operator. It wants to be the person that does thing. So that's to me, special at the top, is probably the archetype that shows up more strongly than others. But it's interesting how that differs from people based on personality, based on their past experiences. Because again, the identity has been formed in the past through these experiences. How does putting a label or a name or identifying which one you are help you to start to evolve from it? Well, it's a moment of awareness.
41:20 It's awareness. I think, I mean, human beings really, it's easy for us to start to become aware about something when we can picture it. We can really picture it. I think the idea of an archetype is useful because you can picture yourself in the moment with very specific traits in the description.
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44:58 you have seen a mentor before, and then has been using always his word, is keep quoting that because he's still living, you know, from the past, from past experience. I've seen that multiple times. So hopefully it will be useful for those people that are going to either read the book or doing the scorecard to see where they are right now.
45:19 But most importantly, I think is what are you going to do about it? So is that the archetype of your set, the version that is you think is needed right now or it might be limiting your ability to drive something? When I think about reinvention, I think about identifying who you are, what's holding you back, and becoming aware. That's an incredible moment.
45:43 But then it's also incredibly scary to think, well, everything that I've done to this point has led me to this level of success. And now I'm going to let go of this person. How do I know that bridging a gap to something new will work? It's fair. It's definitely fair. But I think it's the only way to discover that is at least, starting with the premises that your identity right now is not driving the results or the
46:14 ambition, the vision that you have. That to me is a sufficient moment of realization that something needs to be shifted. Because otherwise, I think, you know, bottom that, bottom, bottom down, I think we all know that, I mean, through your, I don't know what's your, what's your experience with that through your own your reinvention, but my invention, I think, I. knew it. I knew it even if I didn't know what to do, even if I was not able to name it. I knew deep down that if I was persisting in that way, how could have failed? I would have probably failed even more than what I failed in the first place. The question is, how comfortable are you
46:57 to let things go as they are or to disrupt that? I think you know so many people as I do that unfortunately they are still living that space. It's a wide space. They know that their identity is not in service of that right now, but they don't want to act. They cannot act. They feel like it's risky. They don't know what's in the other side.
47:19 But the question is, what's the risk of staying where you are right now? It's such a powerful question. You know, what is that costing you? And what will that cost you moving forward? And it's massive. And it's interesting, so many people that reach out to me for my coaching and consulting say, I'm not sure exactly why I'm reaching out to you, but I wanted to get on a call and hear if we could work together.
47:40 And it's always what you're explaining right now. I already know what it is. If they're reaching out to me, it's because they know something isn't aligned in their life right now with where they want to go. They know they need to reinvent on some level, but they don't have the confidence or they don't have the accountability or they don't have someone to walk them through that uncertainty
47:58 and they don't want to go alone. It's just, it's so interesting to me when it happens at such a high level in a company because they have that additional pressure that they're supposed to look like, supposedly they know what they're doing. You argue that many CEOs are addicted to being needed. How do they break that habit? That is another thing that I see so often not only with CEOs, but senior leaders, with parents, people in these very clearly defined leadership roles.
48:28 Yeah. So our goal, our purpose in life, I mean, I have. appreciate everybody. Everybody has a different purpose. I get it. But when it comes to the corporate world, so if we stick with a corporate work, I would say what is more rewarding than feeling like you have empowered somebody to become better, to create incredible results, and maybe to replace you in every single things that they do? Because the reality is a lot of leaders, they complain about being everywhere and sticking their nose in every single part. They complain No, I don't want you, et cetera.
49:04 But at the same time, they are not offering the space, they're no empowering others to make it happen because they are not willing to take any risk with people. I would say the only way to do is taking a risk of people, betting on people. But you need to believe that people can do good, can do good. And I don't believe most leaders think in that way because their own, you know, I'm better, I knew better, et cetera, prevail.
49:29 It's the ego. sometimes it's lack of confidence at the same time. You know, if I do it, it's better because I know I like, you know, doing things in a certain way. But what's the point? I mean, if I see a leader, it doesn't really empower others to make a difference. What's the entire point of being corporate?
49:50 I mean, being corporate, meaning working with others, growing with others, experiencing things with others, driving results with others. that is the word of corporate. It's not your, you cannot, and I'm sure that was your experience. That was my experience too. I succeeded for good quality I probably expressed,
50:09 but it was thanks to other people that deliver results with me. It's been always the case. It will always be the case. Now, if you want to be a solopreneur, that's the completely different story. If you want to be a business owner, working on your own, etc.,
50:20 that is a different story. To some extent, though, because still you need help in delivering things, right? So to me, it's an invitation to consider is the role of leadership is empowering others. And if you're keeping constantly, you know, yourself into every single conversationary decision, that is not your role.
50:40 And also, you are just frustrating people. They don't see any meaning or working with you. So it's a kind of counter, you know, it's, I can really see, understand why that happens, right? It does happen so often. And when you were explaining that, it reminds. remind me, I work with a lot of people on how to overcome fear, step into fear. And I received a phone call from a very successful, well-known CEO last month. And he said, I'm calling you because I know I need to reinvent myself.
51:10 I don't know how to do it. I need to step away from what I've always been doing. And I want to start taking stages and sharing my message. I want to start writing a book and leading a legacy. I don't know how to make that transition from this thing that I've always been. And I'm so successful. Everyone's going to think I'm crazy. And to your point, I gave them the same feedback that you just shared, which is when we stop making it about ourselves and start making about the other people we can impact, it becomes much clearer.
51:39 The path is much clearer. Just like you said, as a leader, when we start empowering people, make it about the one person you could empower that you could then start them on a trajectory. They never would have seen if you hadn't believed in them, if you hadn't handed that task or tool to them. And it's the same with, you know, taking a stage or writing a book, getting through that unsubstantiated. uncertainty and fear is often stop making it about you, start making it about the people you can impact and that momentum will pick up and it's a lot of fun to watch. And it's incredible how people, once they do that transition that you just described, once they do it, they will never come back.
52:17 They will never go back to where they were before because they started to see, that's great, that's live, that is rewarding, that's fulfilling. But then they need to go over that. They need to go over that, as you said. Yeah, and that's definitely not always easy. So you talk about message and presence. What are the three messaging traps and how do they cost leaders' trust?
52:41 Yeah, so the messaging traps is there are some moments where, by the way, the definition of the message from the book, from the through line methodology is the message is what you make amestakable to people. is what you say and how you say that is important to you, what you stand for, it is so clear for people. So people, they cannot misunderstand you. They cannot, you know, interpret it what you said.
53:07 It's the level of clarity that most of the time, most of the time is missing. And the trap is, either is giving a message which is not real. It's a message that is fake. Is it just a way to please others? It's a message to hide something. So the trap is not being yourself in the way how you do it. And again, that trap, you're going to fall into the trap once your identity is not clear. Because once your identity is clear and you know what you stand for.
53:34 It's normal. It's easy to say people consist of the same message. The trap is when you are not yourself. So then when your message start to get different, shaky sometimes, inconsistent, fluffy, these are all the traps that exist, is this idea of not being able. to be yourself and to give a very level of clarity in terms of what was important to you. And the traps are circumstances based, meaning there are conditions because again, he's all going back to the pressure. So when pressure hits, now what normally happens in front of us,
54:10 we started to see shortcuts. Shortcuts say, well, you know, in this specific condition, I would probably shift my message because probably is better to do in that way. with the board, I'm going to see something different. I'm going to project confidence because they want to hear that. Then with the executive team, I'm going to be on the other end, on the other way on the spectrum. I'm going to be rush. I'm going to be direct. I'm going to be clear and then directive and all of that.
54:36 So this idea of the trap exists whenever you feel like the pressure is as in a huge implication in terms of what you say and how you say. So there are multiple traps. I think it's an opportunity for leaders to say when these traps. when you get in front of this trap, what are you going to say? How are you going to do it so the message is so difficult for people to make it wrong? So that is the idea of the message. How much of this do you think is about the people you're surrounding yourself with? In your personal life, in your senior executive team, the people that you're actually letting speak into you.
55:14 How much of that do you think is affecting whether you stay in that identity and don't go for the change? or if you are willing to open up, become self-aware and leave. Well, in theory, our identity, our message should be not a function of who is in front of us. Now, to some extent, I appreciate this. You're in the corporate world. If you're talking to the investors or you're talking to the board and you're talking to your people, I understand these are a very different audience. But what incredible opportunity you have to be so clear and consistent in what you say in different audiences.
55:47 So you people, they cannot hear a different version of yourself every single time. So my answer will be, it shouldn't affect you. Now, the way how you say it could be different. That's for sure. That's for sure. But not what to say. So what is one thing that our listeners can do this week to close the gap between who they are and the role that they are playing? So I would start with what surprise, identity.
56:17 is why don't you start to step back a second and say, okay, what is really happening to me right now? So look at myself, but look at the system at the same time. What I'm really seeing that I haven't seen before. I did not consider it before. Question like how people are reacting to me, how the market is reacting to me, how the clients are reacting to me, what people are saying, what people are not saying, how I show up in conversation, how I show up in meetings, how I show up in an email,
56:50 trying to have some sort of, first of all, an interest, first of all, an interest about yourself, but more through the perspective of others, how others are experiencing you, what you've seen, how people are behaving, saying and behaving, that to me is a good starting point.
57:07 It's been like an anthropologist. So you can take a few days to just write it down, you know, okay, that's what I see. I can see, well, you know, we are, even a strategic level, you know, we are chasing a specific market positioning. We have been doing this for six months.
57:27 Nothing has shifted. Why I don't step up, sorry, step down in a second and say, well, that is not working. So that is something that requires an intervention. Then, you know, I've been seeing people, you know, their engagement rate in organization through surveys, is always lower, it's at the same time. And maybe I disregard it. Okay, why don't we pose a second and say,
57:48 what does really mean for me? What could be a function of me? So I would say, just read the signal. Make sure that what you see becomes like your data point to start saying, great. Now, once you have that, think about your leadership.
58:03 What do you believe about leadership today? What today? What you believe about today? And then, given the data you have just seen, what is a different leadership that you think might be better or different for addressing the challenge that you have just listed down? It could be a very simple exercise
58:21 although it requires little introspection. I get it. They will, without having a coach with you, they will give an opportunity to say, oh, there is something missing out of my identity that can start creating. That to me is the beginning because the message, the present,
58:37 they are going to bring the message, that identity to life in your speaking. And the present, you're going to bring that to life in your way of being and operating and behaving. I love that. I love those specific tasks that everyone can implement in their life. Okay. So your new book, Reinvention at the Top, the playbook for CEOs to lead under pressure. It's out now. Where can everybody find your book? Where can they find you? Yeah. So reinvention at the top.com. So that's the website where we have the book. And as I said, there is a free scorecard. Play with that.
59:08 I think it's a great opportunity to see how you score across the three dimensions. And it will give you some interesting rapport in terms of what you need to do next. Otherwise, my podcast also, Heather, I think is a good place to be. I mean, I've been interviewed a lot of CEOs since 2021. Very important people. So as yours, I think it's an opportunity to get more into the CEO's world and their mindset, their thinking. And it's called the world-class leadership.
59:37 And finally, as you do, so we are very active on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn is the place for me. I think you write every day. I don't know whether you do. I've been writing since 2021 every single day. So I think we share that. I think you and I either. So that's a place to me.
59:53 We have a love for LinkedIn where business gets done. That's it. That's it. I know. What one message do you want to leave with our listeners before we go today? Challenge yourself. Keep challenging yourself. Don't take everything for granted.
01:00:08 Don't believe that whatever is happening right now, it will happen in the future. Challenge every single decision that you have, every single thing about you, because you're going to explore something about you and what can be possible that maybe you haven't explored before. There's going to give you so much power for your future. So do it. I love that message. The book is Reinvention at the top. Go get it. It's time to reinvent yourself.
01:00:32 Andreas, thank you so much for being here. And thank you for writing this amazing book. Heather, thank you so much for invite me for the great question. Love them. Thank you. All right, guys. You heard the message. Take the challenge. Get the book and tell me about your reinvention.
01:00:47 I will see you next week. I decided to stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it. I'm on this journey with me.
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