Focused - 101: Taking a Sabbatical, with Sean McCabe

Episode Date: June 9, 2020

Sean McCabe is back to talk about sabbaticals - and to convince David to take one of his own.

Welcome to Focus, the productivity podcast about more than just cranking widgets. I'm Mike Schmitz, and I'm joined by my fellow co-host, Mr. David Sparks. Hey, David. Hey, Mr. Michael Schmitz. How are you today? I'm doing great. That's such a loaded question in these times. How's it going?

That is very true. I think the better thing is, how are you doing considering? In my head, I've got marked down asterisks around the word considering, but I'm not sick. I more or less have a job, so it's all good. getting that photos field guide out took a lot out of me. And I thought, man, I really need to take the advice when we had Sean on last year about getting a sabbatical in my life. And Mike said, let's get Sean McCabe back. And I thought he was on a year-long sabbatical. He kind of is, but he made time for us. Welcome back to the show, Sean McCabe. I'm so excited to be here. I want nothing more than for you to get a sabbatical, David. I'm working on it, man. I'm working on it. You're kind of my hero. If you all remember back

when we were doing free agents, Sean was on and Mike had a funny story about the end. I tell what happened at the end of the episode, I'd totally forgotten. Well, in that episode, the primary focus was on Sean's first book, which was Overlap. But a big part of Sean's story, which was broken out into a second book, was this idea of the sabbatical. So we touched on sabbaticals a little bit at the end of that episode that you were on, Sean, but we didn't dive deep into it. And at the very end, we made a comment about how we'd love to have you back in 2020. But that probably wasn't going to happen because you were going to be on a

sabbatical. Although to be fair at the time, and this is this was exactly how it played out. You said no, we can record, you just have to reach out to me less than 24 hours in advance, because I can't schedule anything on my sabbatical. So thanks for making the time. Well, I'm super excited to be here. And it's such a funny rule. I came up with that rule for myself, which is no obligations, no scheduling anything for the sabbatical. I came up with that two years into taking sabbaticals. So I started this sabbatical thing back in 2014. I've been doing it regularly since then. We can get into the origin of that if you'd like, but it took me about two years to really dial it in. And I want to help people really get the most rest out of their sabbatical and understand the difference between a sabbatical and free time. Because for the first two years,

I would take off every seventh week. I would do these seventh week sabbatical and free time. Because for the first two years, I would take off every seventh week. I would do these seventh week sabbaticals where I'd work six weeks and take off a seventh week. Maybe we can talk about my, well, I'm just like diving into the story. Can I share a little bit of my background and where this whole sabbatical idea came from? Yeah, man, we need your help, Sean. We need your help. Okay, okay. Well, you know, we talked in the last episode about a lot of the different things that I've done over the years, from freelancing to running a business and hiring people.

What we didn't talk about so much is that I'm a recovering workaholic, which maybe was obvious to other people, but I certainly wasn't aware of it. And I guess I should define what that means. Um, I think of workaholism as something that takes you away from the things that you feel like you, you need to do or that you should do, or, uh, maybe people that are important

in your life. And that was certainly the case for me. I worked 16 or 17 hours a day on average, seven days a week for 10 years. I really didn't do anything other than work. If you had asked me if I had friends, I would say, of course I have friends. But then everyone I would have named was on payroll. So I didn't really know if I actually had friends. I thought, well, at least my wife's my friend, but I realized she's on payroll too. So you never really know. But my relationships were falling by the wayside. My health was falling by the wayside. I would skip meals. I certainly wasn't exercising. It was not a good situation. I was sleeping five, maybe six hours a

night. Really all I did was work. And the thing was, I loved my work. So it was easy to justify. Like, no, I love what I do, but I was heading towards burnout. And I didn't know any other way to be other than all in. I just have like an obsessive personality type. If I'm going to do something, I'm going to give it my all or I don't care. You know, I'm not even going to do it at all. I don't know if either of you guys are like that. Yeah, I definitely fall into that category. Yeah, I get it. I get it. So I started researching how can I go all in on a break because I know I need to take some time off. And I came across this concept of sabbaticals, which traditionally is taking off every seventh year, usually in academics.

And, you know, you can research, you can travel, you can write. It's kind of recharging, you know, you can research, you can travel, you can write. It's kind of recharging, you know, taking a little bit of a break. And I liked the idea, but I wanted something a little smaller scale, something that I could do now, which was back in 2014. And so just to play on numbers, there's the seventh year idea, there's seven days in a week. I thought, what if I just take off every seventh week? And that's kind of how it started. So what was the original goal with the sabbatical? Just knowing that you needed to find some rest because you were getting close to burnout and you were trying to find a system

that forced you to do that? Yes, that was the goal. But I didn't know how to just slow down or work less. Like that just didn't compute in my brain. Like either I'm going to do something or I'm going to do something else. And whatever I do, I'm just going to go all in. So I knew the only way is if I went all in on a break, like I need to be completely off. And that's exactly where I am, Sean. So I've been doing two jobs for 20 years, let's say. two jobs for 20 years, let's say. And I know theoretically I'm supposed to do these breaks. And every time I get to a breaking point, I have no idea where to start or what to do. So I want your wisdom, Obi-Wan. I did it wrong the first couple of years, which is,

okay, to my credit, I scheduled it. And the beauty of scheduling is you do it once, you set it to repeat. In my case, I tried this seventh week thing, work six weeks, take off the seventh week, and that worked so well, I said, let's just keep doing this. And so my calendar event just continued to repeat, and I haven't had to change it since. So to my credit, I took the first step, which is scheduling it, but then I kept thinking of it in terms of free time. So to my credit, I took the first step, which is scheduling it. But then I kept thinking of it in terms of free time. So I'd look on my calendar and I'd see, oh, I've got a sabbatical week coming up in three or four weeks. I'm excited for that. And there would be nothing in that period because that was my sabbatical week. But inevitably, people say, hey, do you

want to go get coffee or you want to do this meeting or you want to do this interview? And I would say, sure, sure. And I would schedule it for that sabbatical week because I saw it as free time and we fill free time automatically. I'm available. So I say yes. And I would say yes to things that I thought I wanted to do. It wasn't like I was obligating myself to something that I hated.

I thought I wanted to do. It wasn't like I was obligating myself to something that I hated. I thought I wanted to do it. But when I got there, when I got to the sabbatical week, oftentimes, more often than not, all I wanted to do was rest. And rest could look like anything. Maybe you do want to lay on the couch or sleep in in the mornings, but it could also be going through those courses you bought that you never finished. It could be learning. It could be watching documentaries. It could be anything, right? And I would get to that week and I would just want to rest. But I had all of these obligations, these things that my past self had committed me to. My past self was so convinced I'm going to want to do these in the future,

but I didn't know my future self. And the phrase that I've come to want to do these in the future, but I didn't know my future self. And the phrase that I've come to repeat to myself is, I don't know how much I need to rest until I give myself the opportunity to rest. Sure, that makes a lot of sense. Your past self is a real jerk. Always. Isn't past self almost always a jerk? How often does past self really serve current self? It's tricky because to take this as an example, I'm very, very passionate about sabbaticals. As someone who has experienced burnout and just a year or two of feeling creatively depleted, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies. I want people to not only prevent burnout because it's terrible, but what I've also found is sabbaticals help you unlock your best ideas, your best

creative ideas. Whole businesses can come out of ideas that you come up with on sabbaticals. It's this free space. It's like when you're on a walk or you're taking a shower, just ideas come to you. So it's two-sided. You avoid burnout. So there's the avoidance of this downside. But then you discover, I really truly believe your best ideas are locked up. They're like locked away from you in a box that's inaccessible until you take a step back and just create this space for yourself. So I'm so passionate

about sabbaticals. I want to help people. You guys invited me on this podcast to talk about sabbaticals and it took everything in me to hold back from saying yes, because all I wanted to do is say yes, I would love to talk about sabbaticals, but I had to remember my rule. Don't schedule anything for the sabbatical because something you think you want to do can become an obligation for you in the future. And so I told Mike, I'm like, I really want to do this. But what I found works really well for me while I'm on a sabbatical, which right now I'm in a sabbatical year, actually, we can get to that in a little bit. I said, what's worked really well for me is saying yes to things in a 24 hour window and no, if it's further beyond that. And I got this inspiration

from Warren Buffett, actually. So, you know, he's, he's 80 years old. His time is precious. It's limited. It is for all of us, but I'm sure he's acutely aware of that. And if you try to schedule a meeting with Warren Buffett three weeks from now, you're just going to get a no. What you have to do, his secretary will tell you, is you need to contact us in two weeks and six days and ask within a 24-hour window. And he'll either say yes or he'll either say no. So that 24-hour rule, is that something that you employed on your shorter sabbaticals too, that you transferred over to the year-long sabbatical? Yes.

Are there any other rules like that that you have for your sabbaticals to force you to rest and to do it the right way? Great question. This is it. I went into it the first couple years with absolutely no rules. It was just total free time. But we saw the problems with that. The free time got filled up and I created obligations for myself, which negated the restful properties of the sabbatical. So I only have the one rule. Don't schedule anything. No obligations. Live in the moment. Say yes to things in the moment because there's no one inherent activity that is work or

rest. Is writing work? Is art? Is that work? Well, all that matters is whether or not you have to do it. If you're obligated to do it, then it's work. We've all had the report that's due. You got to write the report. Well, that's going to feel like work. But if you're excited about a story you want to tell, well, that's not going to feel like work. But both might involve mashing the QWERTY keyboard, right? And so if someone's looking in your office, it looks like you're working, but it's not the activity itself. It's whether you choose to do it or you have to do it.

And when you choose to do something, it gives you energy. When you have to do something, it takes energy from you. Yeah, that is something that's hard to wrap your head around. Even for me right now, where I work with Sean Blanc at the suite setup, and we take sabbaticals every eighth week. So I understand the process and I have come to relish those sabbaticals. But it's hard to think that a simple mindset shift of choosing to do something versus having to do something could be the difference between something giving you energy or gaining energy. It took me two years, Mike. All right. So there's actually a lot to unpack with what we've just blasted through.

And I kind of want to take a few of the component pieces, if you don't mind. And the first one is kind of the why of sabbaticals. You talk about, you know, we want to avoid burnout. There's a why that I'm more interested in. Well, I mean, of course I want to avoid burnout, but there's something that I found. Um, and you talked about the idea of space and the fruit of space, you know, what do you get from putting space in your life? And as someone who quite often has way too much scheduled in my life, I mean, I, I, I have a series of posts called hyper scheduling just to give you an idea. So I really have a lot of my days mapped out for me as I,

as I work through them. But when I do have the meditation, the dog walks and like the little bits of space that I, I put in there quite often, that's where I have the Eureka moments about something I'm working on just kind of comes out of the blue. And I feel like one of the things I'm missing in my life is not having enough space to fully explore that. Could you explain a little bit further about, you know, how space works with, with that, you know, those ideas coming?

It's, it's just possibility, right? So it's, it's hard. It's. I've found it's hard to convince people who feel like they're happy with the way everything is going in their life, that it could be even better, because it feels like a risk. It's like, well, I have this system, and I get my work done, and everything's working right now. And let's assume they don't burn out. You know, they just, they, they keep that up and that's fine. Um, but if you, it's, it's, it's so, it's so hard to explain when you haven't experienced it. But, um, like I said, the closest thing is the ideas you get in a shower or on a walk that just come to you. It's like a, it in a shower or on a walk that just come to you. It's like a muse or something, you know, someone whispering in your ear. Just things tend to click when you don't, you know, you're trying to design a logo or something and just the concepts aren't working. Step away from the desk,

you know, get out of the office, go outside, go do something completely different, you know, go play a game. And that's where so many problems will unlock for you. And this space that you create when it's something that's scheduled, when it's a routine, it starts to become a rhythm. You know, I even pay the employees in my company to take off every seventh week as a sabbatical. It's their job, which at first I wasn't sure about. You know, my first thought was, how do I make sure they're working when I'm on my sabbatical? But I realized if I believe in this concept, I should be investing in them as well. They're people just like me. You know, we're all humans. We're not robots.

And it becomes this heartbeat, you know, kind of this rhythm. And it becomes this heartbeat, kind of this rhythm. Yeah. No, I think there's really something to it. And it's funny. I guess the second point I would take out of what you talked about is there is kind of a leap. You guys are old enough to see the third Indiana Jones movie. You know what I'm talking about?

Yes. Where they go in and he's going for the Ark of the Covenant covenant at one point uh he's standing on the edge of the abyss and there's no way across the abyss and he literally just has to lift his foot and fall forward i love that scene because there's so much in life where you need to do that i've done that some of the best things i've done in my life was when i closed my eyes stuck my foot out and just fell forward into the abyss. And I think that's where I need to be with this sabbatical concept. But man, is it hard. I'm glad you said that because I forget that the more experience you have, the more you've seen this type of thing before where you take a leap and it is scary and it's like that trust fall, but it's not

like everything's going to fall apart. It's not like everything's going to go wrong and it's irreversible. Sometimes you do just have to take a chance. Sometimes you do just have to take a leap and trust the process. I'll tell you one big challenge for me is, and I'm sorry, I'm trying not to make this all about me, but I do feel like I'm kind of representative of some of the folks out there, is that a lot of the way I pay for my shoes is client work. I've got two jobs. I'm a business lawyer and I'm also a professional nerd. The professional nerd part, I could probably get away with just taking a week off if I planned the blog posts and all the stuff that needs to happen while I'm gone. I could make that happen. But for my clients, the legal clients, when they call and say, hey, I've got this big thing I need your help with and I need you right now, I just don't know how I deal with that problem.

That's a stumbling block for me. Because I'm like, well, if I take all the effort, if I go rent a cabin or do whatever, am I going to get up there and just get shanghaied into a bunch of stuff that makes it not a sabbatical? Well, it would. It definitely would. It either has to be you have total freedom or you don't. And for you to get the restful benefits out of the sabbatical, you have to know that you have that total freedom. It's the difference between knowing that you've told everyone in your house, I need to focus on this project for the next two hours. I'm going to be in my office with the door closed unless there's an emergency. Please don't interrupt.

It's the difference between that and those expectations being set and just closing your door and trying to get some work done, but knowing at any moment someone could just burst through the door and ask you a question. That little background process in your brain that's expecting that, that knows anyone could interrupt, it's going to take away from your focus. Your focus isn't going to be as deep as if you eliminated even the possibility of interruptions. When you eliminate even the possibility where you know it's not even going to happen, it's just so much deeper. So what do you advise people when they come to you with this problem? So it depends on their business situation. So, you know, sometimes you might have a software company, sometimes you

might have freelance clients, or maybe like the professional nerd part, you have a bit more flexibility, online digital products, courses, things like that. If you have clients, it's all about expectations. It's all about setting expectations. In some cases, depending on how you work, or if you have a team, or what the schedule is, if you're not on call, for instance, you could schedule certain meetings around the sabbatical. If you have a team, for instance, you could have certain people be responsible for certain tasks while you're on sabbatical. Or if it's just you and you're on call, then it's a matter of setting expectations with those clients as far as your availability. So I envision one of the obstacles for people who work with a team is kind of this belief, especially for like a business owner, that I am more important than

I really am. Like my team needs me. I can't possibly take a break because they would be helpless without me. Did you have to battle that first time you took a sabbatical? I guess I did. Right now I'm so like sold on it. I can tell you this, Mike. So right now we're in the middle of a whole entire sabbatical year. It's 2020. We've been planning this since 2016. I came back around to my original inspiration and I said, you know what? These sabbatical weeks are going so well. I'm going to do the seventh year thing too. So we decided we're going to move out of our house, not have a car, just put stuff in a backpack, and we were going to travel the world.

And we got a couple months in and then the pandemic hit the US and kind of put a stop to that. So I've been sitting in an Airbnb, which is where I'm at right now for about a month and not doing much other than running and writing. And I thought, you know what, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start up a media agency because I feel like it. I want to, I've got nothing better to do. This would bring in some additional cash revenue. But as luck would have it, my past self decided I'm only going to travel with iOS devices, no Mac. And I did it on purpose because I knew if I had a Mac, I would do more of the work myself. So I was purposely trying to limit myself. And in short, I've just spun up in 25 days a six-figure agency. So this is without me actually having to do the work. This is

completely delegated. And this is as a result of forcing myself to not be an integral part in the workings of my business. Because I set it up that way where I couldn't even do the fulfillment if I wanted to. It forced me to delegate to others. And, and it's been the greatest gift for my business because it's, it ensures that it runs whether I'm there or not. So my contribution is more of working on the business as opposed to in the business. I think that the delegation thing that you mentioned there is probably worth unpacking. There's a lot of people who believe delegation

is just telling somebody to do something, which is not really, that's kind of abdication. What's your advice for somebody who wants to delegate work to a team in order to achieve the ability to release any attachment from their business, whether it be for a week or for a year, you know, how do you delegate effectively? I'm glad you asked that. Cause then it just reminded me, I am remembering now it was back in 2014 I think I recorded a podcast about superhero syndrome which is totally what I had I didn't even want a team I just I wanted to feel like I could do everything myself because it it just it made

me feel like yeah you know I I'm doing all of this it's me and it was so silly because I just convinced myself that other people didn't care as much as I did. They couldn't do it as well as I did. They wouldn't mind the details like I do. And it was a process of discovering and learning and seeing for myself that when you empower other people to take on one aspect of the 50 things that you do, you give them one, not only can they eventually do it as well as you, even though you believe they can't right now, they will almost certainly surpass you in quality in that focus because that's their entire thing. Whereas for you, it's one of 50 things. And so I started thinking about, I forget where

I learned this, but I learned it from someone smart about delegating things. And you have the things that you like doing, you have the things that you don't like doing. Then you have the things that you're good at, and then you have the things that you're good at and you like doing. Then you have the things that you're good at. And then you have the things that you're good at and you like doing. So the easiest thing to delegate is the stuff you don't like. The good news is, okay, maybe you don't like accounting, for instance. Someone out there actually loves accounting. Maybe you don't like customer service. You're not so much of a people person. Someone out there does. So it's really easy to delegate the things you don't like because you don't want to do them anyway.

Then you've got to delegate the things that you like to do. Oh, this is kind of fun. But you know what? You're not the best at that. Someone else can do it a lot better than you. You need to delegate that. What's really tough is delegating the things that you're good at and even things that you're good at and you like doing. And I probably should have combined those. It's probably doing things you're good at and you like

doing because the final thing is doing things that only you can do. Some people call that your zone of genius, but the way I define it is voice and vision. So what are the things that only you can do? And ultimately, this is where you should get. Delegate everything else, even things you like doing, even things you're good at. Eventually, you want to get to voice and vision. These are the things that only you can do. Your voice is, it doesn't have to necessarily be your auditory voice like on a podcast,

but like your message, the way you're saying something. Someone else can take that message and run with it. They can write the newsletter. They can make, you know, the graphic, but it's ultimately your voice. And then you have vision, which is seeing the future. Where do you want to go? Where do you see this, you know, where do you want to take this thing? Voice and vision, everything else you want to delegate. It's easier said than done, but that's where you want to be. Yeah, I think the first time I read that was a Michael Hyatt novel. And I don't know if he got that somewhere else.

Or I guess, is it a novel when it's about productivity? Michael Hyatt book. But yeah, it's a great idea. And that is another Indiana Jones leap of faith that i've taken and and you know i think a lot of people when they do that again it just you're right it just always pays off to do that and i guess one of the connections you're making that is useful is that there is a direct connection between the ability to delegate work off and give yourself the space that comes with a sabbatical. It's a great gift. So part of the way I would think about a software

company implementing sabbaticals is, first of all, you would have to have multiple tracks because, say, you've got 50 people in a software company. You can't have them all off. Someone needs to man the servers. Someone needs to respond to the customer support tickets. So you'd have different tracks. But what this does is it forces you to create processes and train people to handle the tasks that someone who is going to be on a sabbatical is responsible for. If you only have one point of failure, that's not good because sabbaticals are not. If someone gets hit by a bus and you don't have processes, you don't have

someone else who can take over that role temporarily, you're going to be in a bad place. And so implementing sabbaticals actually does wonders for your business because it forces you to create these processes and to train people to handle things that previously only you could do. Yeah, and work on the business, as you would say. And I would add to that cast vision, because I would imagine that's a pretty big piece of being able to step away for a sabbatical, especially when you run a business like you do, Sean, where it kind of is you in a sense. So if you're, I remember you had a podcast episode a long time ago that I have shared with probably six dozen people, the communication episode where you said you

haven't cast the vision until you hear it coming back to you, not just being parroted back to you, but people have internalized it and it's coming from them and you are hearing it as you would have communicated it to them. Yeah, if you put a message in a bottle and you throw it in the ocean, you're in New York, you want to communicate with someone in London, you throw the bottle in the ocean. Have you communicated? Well, no, you didn't know if it made it. It's just like we're broadcasting radio waves into space. Unless we get that signal back, we're broadcasting. We're not communicating. Exactly. And I think maybe for a lot of people who think I've communicated because I have sent the message, but that doesn't guarantee that it's been received.

As a parent, I know this all too well, where you have to communicate the vision for a clean room over and over and over again. I like that. Schmitz calls it a vision for a clean room. Yep. That's very much. This episode of Focused is brought to you by Pingdom from SolarWinds. This episode of Focused is brought to you by Pingdom from SolarWinds. Do you have a website and does that website have a shopping cart registration form or a contact us page? If you answered yes to any of these, then you need Pingdom. Nobody wants their critical website

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do sign up, use the code FOCUSED, F-O-C-U-S-E-D at checkout to get a huge 30% off your first invoice. Once again, that's pingdom.com slash RelayFM and use the code FOCUSED to get 30% off your first invoice. Once again, that's pingdom.com slash RelayFM and use the code FOCUSED to get 30% off your first invoice. Our thanks to Pingdom from SolarWinds for their support of FOCUSED and all of RelayFM. Let's go back to your journey because I definitely want to talk at the end of the show or later in the show about some specific advice for people who want to get started on it. But I got to talk about your one-year sabbatical, because I watched the video on your website, and we'll put a link in the show notes where Sean did a nice update. But the first thing that struck me, because I knew you were going to do this one-year sabbatical, but I assumed it would be like staying home and doing your sabbatical

and just taking your year off. But you packed your life into a backpack and you and your wife left not knowing where you were going to end. Talk about a leap of faith. Yeah, kind of a crazy thing. I should say you don't have to do this to take a sabbatical. You can do it at home. That's where I do it mostly is you're at home. You know, it's just about freedom from any obligations and the ability to choose what you want to do in the moment.

But we did decide that we were going to travel and I didn't really get to travel very much growing up. And so I wanted to see the world. I hadn't been to Europe and I hadn't been to Australia. And we had all these places that we wanted to visit. So I guess, you know, it ended up getting cut short. But the idea was we wanted to go out and experience the world. This was an opportunity for us to do this. And we thought it would also be fun to host meetups along the way with, you know, people who had listened to the podcast or followed along.

And we did get to do this for a couple months and it was a lot of fun. It's hard for me to go back to the excitement for it and what we had planned. Because now, like, it's like we're we're stuck you know we just have to sit in one place so maybe you can help me kind of like like open it up a little bit well let's get in the headspace a little bit before covet 19 um the um you you've got your bags packed and you head out how did travel affect your ability to effectively sabbatical as you have perfected it over the years? It wasn't too bad. We had, we actually got the Southwest Companion Pass and we had a lot of points on the credit card. And so we basically got free flights around,

which was pretty nice. So it was fairly relaxed. We really lived like, we only had about two weeks out that we knew where we were going to live next. We had a general idea. We kind of started in San Diego, worked our way up the West Coast all the way to Washington, and just kind of got Airbnbs along the way and added some stops along the way. And we were just kind of living in the moment. And it was fun. You know, it was exciting. Like we were just exploring the world. And like you said, it wasn't as if we would eventually move back home because we actually ended our lease where we were living. And we said, let's just see where in the country we want to live. Let's explore a bunch of places and, and see where we end up. And so it was this, it was this strange feeling of not only are we

embarking on this journey, this trip, but you, you keep having this notion in your mind of like, oh yeah, home. And when we get back home and, and it was this reconciliation of like, no, actually there, there is no home. Like you get to back home and it was this reconciliation of like, no, actually there is no home. Like you get to decide where your new home is going to be. Wow. That's simultaneously exciting and terrifying to me. Yep. Yeah. Very much terrifying. But I guess I warmed up to it because honestly, the hardest part for me, this maybe sounds silly, but like, I love my office.

I love all of my recording gear. I miss my podcasting microphone so much. And it was this exercise in limitation. I'm just going to bring mobile devices with me. I'll pack a lavalier microphone and this is it. You know, like you think work is about the tools, but it's really not. You don't need that much. You can use the phone in your pocket to record a podcast or post a tweet or write a blog post. Like it really is doable. So I also wanted

to kind of make myself a guinea pig and not have the fancy studio. Because a lot of people think like, oh, Sean has the fancy studio where he tells Siri video shoot, and then all of the lights and cameras and everything comes on. And that's why he can record all the videos. And it's like, no, no, I want to prove that I can do this just with the device in my pocket. And so what did you just pack everything up and store it? Yeah, so the gear, we did put it in a storage unit. Okay. Well, so then you started on this trip, and it sounds like you were sabbaticaling, if that's a verb, quite nicely. And then something happened.

Yep. So the pandemic hit and it was some weeks before there was the first, well, there certainly wasn't any mandates or restrictions or anything, but we were kind of seeing stuff happen in other countries and it was foreboding. except meetups. But then within a few days, I thought, well, this was like the very beginning of March. I was like, we should probably cancel this Seattle meetup that we've got coming up, which surprisingly, like at the time, that was a really weird thing. People are like, what are you talking about? I'm like, this just doesn't look, this doesn't look like a good idea. And then within a matter of days or weeks, it was clear we made the right decision. But yeah, we just kind of hunkered down. And, you know, people have asked me if I've been like disappointed or depressed, because this has been in the works for four years. We've been planning this a long time. We're going to travel the world. And honestly, no, I haven't been depressed. I haven't been sad about it because my wife actually had some health issues last year and we weren't sure if she was going to make it. And she did and she got the help she needed and she's doing great today.

for every day that she's here, that we get to be together. We have everything we need, which is honestly way less than you think. It really does fit in a backpack. And so all of this traveling the world stuff, that was just a bonus. It was just a gift. Whatever of that I got to experience, that was just gravy on top. And so I didn't feel like something was taken away from me. I really do just feel grateful. So you mentioned you were planning this thing for four years. So there was obviously some sort of goal or objective, and maybe that's not the right term, but you had a plan for how the sabbatical was going to go, even if it was going to be unplanned and you weren't going to schedule things more than 24 hours in advance. You kind of had a general idea of this is where we're going

to go. This is what we're going to do. How has that changed since the whole COVID-19 thing? What was there a point when you were tempted to just be like, oh, forget it. Let's try this again some other time. Or did you shift your focus for this thing and decide to stick it out? Like, what was the process there? It's so, so hard to predict. I mean, in the future, people will probably think differently about this time because hindsight is 20-20. But when we're here and living in it, nobody knows. Nobody really knows what things are going to look like. It feels impossible to predict what things will look like in two weeks or four weeks or three months, you know, from going to parks or grocery stores to public transit or flights or meetings or gatherings or anything.

We just, we all kind of collectively feel in the dark. So we certainly didn't know. Like last year, I'm glad I planned so far in advance because I spent all of 2019, the year prior to this, training the guy who would run the business while I'm gone. And that's been invaluable because everything's just happening. And I can pop in and work on the business when I want, but I don't have to be there. So that was really good. But at this point, it's like, you know, we're recording at the end of May in 2020. We don't, we honestly don't know what June, July, August, September looks like. Are people doing international flights at that point? Is it going to be, you know, is it not going to be the same till 2021? Is it going to take several years for flights to get back to normal? Is there a new normal? You know, we really just don't know. And so we've decided, you know, traveling is cool. We were going to do the whole world travel thing. That sounds like a fun idea. We got a little taste of it. It's obviously not going to happen the way we thought this year, but we don't have to travel to take a sabbatical. Sabbatical is just about freedom from obligation. And so in full disclosure, this is not like we, it's not official

yet, but we're actually looking at some places in Boise, Idaho to kind of settle down as like the new home. So we will continue the sabbatical year through the end of 2020 in terms of like not going back to normal working stuff till 2021. But yeah, we're going to end the travel aspect of it. So there is an end to this though, So there is an end to this, though, in an ending point that you're at the end of 2020. Basically, you're thinking you're going to have a new home. You're not going to remain in, I don't want to say a limbo state, but basically you want to have a home base at that point. Well, to be clear, we're probably going to apply for a house today here in Boise. Okay. Was that always part of the plan that by the end of 2020, we're going to know where home

is? Or is that still the result of, you know, take it a day at a time? That was going to be the plan. We would have figured out at some point throughout the year where we liked and where we wanted to settle down. That just wouldn't have happened until 2021, and now it's happening sooner. Well, you know, it kind of makes sense, though, because, you know, in this moment in time, having some roots somewhere is kind of a critical thing. I mean, you know, talking about what you do in your activities as a sabbatical, what I'm hearing is you actually kind of need something you can count on in terms of where you're going to sleep at night. For sure. And we've just been kind of extending this Airbnb.

And we'll probably end up being in this Airbnb for two months when it's all said and done. But we kind of figured, hey, it looks like we're not going to be traveling the world. So it might be nicer instead of just going from one long-term Airbnb to another. Maybe we just go ahead and get a place and settle down and actually sleep on our own pillows and have a nice internet connection. Man, Airbnb internet connections are the worst.

Yeah. There's like a whole Saturday Night Live skit around the pandemic and Airbnb about, you know, it's a very funny one where the lady has to get back to her house, but there's an Airbnb person there who's quarantined. And I can see this happening, right? You know, when you're out trying to travel the world, suddenly what happens when Airbnb person there who's quarantined and i can see you know i can see this happening right you know when you're out trying to travel the world suddenly what happens when airbnb is supposed to be two days and it turns into two months so now are you buying or renting that's the real difference right

we're we're just going to rent um still still keep a little bit of that freedom and options probably just do a 12 month uh lease Yeah. Well, and you know what, you can always go somewhere else when you're done if you want. Yeah. So I know Airbnb, when it goes well is great. When it doesn't go well is not so great. You shared an interesting interesting experience on your video. Has that uncertainty combined with the business uncertainty caused you to make any adjustments? How have you navigated that emotionally? Well, I'll tell you my best tip, and that is when it comes to Airbnbs, Well, I'll tell you my best tip, and that is when it comes to Airbnbs, no reviews equal bad reviews. Because I thought, hey, no reviews means no bad reviews, right?

Couldn't be that bad. No, make sure you have good reviews on the Airbnb you stay in. No reviews can be worse than bad reviews, which was my experience. So I've learned a lot about Airbnb for sure. As long as you look for the right places and do your homework, it can be a good experience. But emotionally, I would say last year with my wife's health issues, I was prepared for this year. I almost feel like I feel so prepared coming into this pandemic because last year I had to get comfortable with uncertainty.

I really didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know if my wife was going to be alive, you know. And so that, I guess it's a skill. I don't know. It's like, it's kind of like a, a Zen state, you know, you can't, you can't control everything. And sometimes you feel like you can, but as we've all seen with this pandemic, you know, even when you think everything's going well and you have everything under your control, there's so much that really is outside of your

control and, and how you handle that that how you respond to that how you maintain your composure and a handle on your emotions in the face of uncertainty and lack of control really is everything amen brother i mean maybe that's a benefit of this is people will realize how little is under their control and and have second thoughts once we pull benefit of this is people will realize how little is under their control and, and have second thoughts once we pull out of this thing about what they do next. I hope so. I also hope we can deliver something actionable for you,

David. I'd be remiss if I didn't say, I want to make sure we conclude this episode with you feeling clarity about this. All right, let's do that next. This episode of the Focused podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Make your next move with Squarespace and enter offer code FOCUSED, F-O-C-U-S-E-D, at checkout to get 10% off your first purchase. Squarespace lets you easily create a website for your next big idea with a unique domain, award-winning templates, and more. So maybe you want to create an online store or portfolio, or maybe even a blog. Squarespace is the all-in-one platform that

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Thank you Squarespace for your support of the focused podcast and all of RelayFM. Squarespace, make your next move, make your next website. Okay, Sean. So one of the things I've taken out of this conversation that I really, it hadn't sunk in for me was to you, a sabbatical is in a lot of ways, it's just, it's free time, but you've, you kind of evolved what you do with that for Jim. One of the things you do is you don't plan, but like you're taking a sabbatical year, but you formed a business during your sabbatical. So you have some freedom to like stray into things

that you're passionate about. If you want it, it's not like forced recreation, I guess is the, is the way I'm trying to put that. Yeah. Some, some people that they do like, you know, when you go on vacation, you're not allowed to work, you're not allowed to bring the laptop, you log out of the email. And I definitely get that. But for me, there's no rule that sabbatical means you can't work. Because as we talked about earlier, there's no one inherent activity that is work. It's about whether you have to do it or you choose to do it. And sometimes I want to write. Sometimes I want to outline a course. Sometimes I want to plan a new business. And if I'm choosing to do that, it gives me energy. And so it's a restful activity

for me. So it's not like forced time away from anything that looks like work. There's no rule. It's just you get to choose. It's not that I'm saying you have to stare at a blank wall for a week. It's that you get to say yes to anything in the moment. Do you think there is a place for those forced breaks? For example, everybody is kind of figuring out a new normal. They're working from home. And maybe you had a bunch of vacation planned over the summer. And those vacation plans now

are out the window. The tendency can be to just keep working. And there's a lot of adjustments I know people have trouble making when working from home, like disconnecting from work because you can't physically leave your home and you don't have a commute, you know, to go eat dinner with your family anymore unless you walk up the stairs like I do. Do you think that just taking that vacation serves some purpose or role in cultivating a restful state? And what's the difference between that and a true sabbatical? I definitely think there's benefit. I've, I've seen a lot of people talk about it, make videos about it, and they call it a social media detox, or even like a, a dopamine detox. You know, some people go really extreme with it. I think people can see a lot of

benefits from it. I just want to differentiate sabbaticals from something like that, where I'm just saying there's not a rule that says you can't do anything work-like or productive-like or creative-like if that looks like your normal life. It's the only thing is freedom from obligations. Just over the past six years that I've done this, that's what I've narrowed it down to. I've distilled it down. That's left at the bottom of the pot when all the water boils out. It's freedom from obligations.

It's not about the act. It's not about the social media. It's not about the applications or the desktop versus the mobile or the writing or not writing. It's just freedom from obligation. Yeah. For instance, with me, I, uh, I have a metric I weigh myself against and Mike and I've talked about in the show called moving the needle. You know, there, there are certain things I do that create a product or, or put something out there that I want to put out there or

serve a client. And to me, that is how I judge myself. You know, I want to spend so much time moving the needle every day. One of the things, one of the attractions of a sabbatical for me is getting off that treadmill for a few days or a week of not having to weigh myself against moving the needle. And I think that's kind of in line with what you're saying. Yeah. So you don't have to move the needle in terms of, I need to have some kind of productive output today or today was a wasted day. On a sabbatical, there is no wasted day because there's only what you choose to do. And if self set you up for it, then that wouldn't be a success. But I've written a post, and this will go in my next book, which is called Sabbatical, which I wrote last year, but I need to edit. I talk about how discipline doesn't stop while you're on sabbatical. And I talk about maintaining routine on sabbatical. So I've

experimented with both. I've tried both ways where I just completely get rid of my routine. I can stay up late and sleep in late and, you know, exercise or not. I've tried all of this and I find that I don't feel as well when coming back. And it's certainly difficult to get back into the normal routine after you come off of a sabbatical where you just tossed your routine out the window. I still definitely recommend sticking to some kind of consistent routine, some kind of consistent bedtime, wake time, exercise time, writing time, whatever your day looks like. It's just wherever you might have worked, well, that's your new free time.

So how regimented are your routines during your sabbatical? Are there any habits that you let go or do you maintain like the same morning, evening routine throughout? For me personally, I've found the most important things to be the amount of sleep I get. And when I go to bed and when I wake up. Over the years, it's shifted. It used to be 4.30 and some years it was 6.30. Admittedly, since all of my wife's health stuff last year and then going into the sabbatical year, our sleep schedule has kind of shifted. So it's not like 4.30 wake times

anymore, but I've kind of just accepted that. Like that's okay for this season as long as I'm getting those eight hours of sleep. But for me, maintaining an exercise routine is super important for me. It also feels, in this pandemic, it feels like it's something to work towards. So I'm going to be running a marathon in four days. And so I've been training for that for some months now. And it gives me something to work towards, even though it's, they canceled the marathon, so I'm going to run it by myself. But it just gives me kind of that pillar in my day. Okay, I got to go get my training run in. That's also my podcast time. And so just having these little routines that I do kind of give some structure to my day that makes the free time

even more rewarding. It doesn't feel like I'm just kind of laying around the house. So, Sean, I mean, you're doing a year-long sabbatical, which is awesome, but for someone getting started in this, is there, in your experience, kind of like a minimum viable sabbatical? Like, in my mind, I'm thinking, well, maybe if I were to just, you know, to completely ignore clients, maybe it's a two- a three day sabbatical to start with. Is that something realistic or is that not long enough to really kind of get it rolling? Absolutely. So, yeah, the year thing, that's not for everyone.

For people who do completely control their schedule or run their own business, they might have the option to do a sabbatical week, like a seventh week sabbatical. But for someone who either doesn't control their schedule or has other limitations, where I recommend starting is scheduling a weekend sabbatical. So the last weekend of the month, block that off. You just call it weekend sabbatical, have the event run all day for two days. And that could be Saturday, Sunday, it could be Friday, Saturday, Monday, Tuesday, whatever your week looks like. But you're just blocking off that last weekend of the month. And the only rule is don't schedule anything for that time. Just go into that time and experience the freedom of choice, just that space,

and you'll start to get a taste of the benefits of sabbaticals. It won't be as deep as a week-long sabbatical, but it's a great starting point. You know, it's interesting for me because, like, for me, quite often weekends are sabbaticals under that definition in the sense that, you know, I've got a family, and I often try to plan my week in a way that I can take the weekend off and just hang out with the kids or do things. So in essence, I am experiencing these many weekend sabbaticals, but, you know, I guess part of me wants more than that. So I don't know, maybe I'm not sure I'm looking at it from the right angle. So related question then, is there such thing as a partial sabbatical?

So yeah, I've really explored this a lot and I've talked with people a lot and I've coached them through it and we've talked about it. And the conclusion I've come to is it doesn't work to take, let's call it a half sabbatical where you've got a regular day job and then you also have a side business or a passion and you take a sabbatical from the side passion, that's not going to give you the restful benefits of a sabbatical. It's got to be completely off, like where the whole day is just blocked off for whatever you want to do in the moment. So in that sense, you couldn't really do like a half sabbatical where you're working that day, but you're taking off from one thing. It's not going to feel restful to you.

Balancing that with the family aspect, then would the difference just want to give a couple scenarios you can tell me for understanding this correctly. So let's say my goal for the weekend is to just spend time with my family. If I have activities planned ahead of time, we're going to do X and we're going to go Y. That is not a sabbatical. But if we just enter the weekend with no obligations and we're free to do whatever we want together, that is a sabbatical. Right. So that would be a weekend versus a sabbatical. Got it.

Yeah, I want more. I want more than a weekend. That's for sure. I think, but I do think, you know, if I'm hearing you right, let's say I decide to start with two or three days, I could probably swing that with some planning. Maybe we'll talk about planning in a little bit, but I could probably get away with turning the phone and the email off for a few days and just being able to do whatever the heck I wanted. What if I pushed you to schedule a week-long sabbatical and have it repeat every seven weeks? I, you know, there's a part of me that would like to be pushed into that.

And there's a part of me that is a little scared that it's going to be really hard to actually live up to that. I mean, I just got a call this morning from a client that has a problem that needs my attention today. And I don't have, I'm a solo attorney, so I don't have someone I can just assign it off to. And frankly, my clients hire me because of that. They want me to do the work, not somebody else. So a week long, I don't think I could make it through a week. Like if someone called me on Monday and I'd say, well, you're gonna have to wait until

Saturday. I don't think I could make it. How many of those instances do you experience in a given week? Somewhere between zero and three. Okay. And do you think if you communicated ahead of time to say, hey, in six weeks, I'm going to take a week off and I wouldn't be available for these five days for the immediate calls, how do you think they would respond? See, that's the problem, right? Part of me likes to be all-knowing and all-being for my clients.

You might be surprised at how much it's actually you wanting to be that for them versus them expecting it and being upset that you're not available. I had kidney stones and none of my clients knew because I didn't want them. It was so bad that i would say okay i'm gonna they call and say i have another call i'm gonna call you back in a half hour and then go lay down and work through a kidney stone and call him back so that that is a personal what is that a superman complex or i don't know where it fits sean but i i have some issues apparently. Well, you're not alone. So if you do suspect that it is in large part you not wanting to be the superhero and less so that the client wouldn't be understanding that you're not available for these five days, but you would get back to them the very next Monday.

So at worst, they wait a week. At least they wait three days, right? Yeah. Then I would really encourage you to lean into what scares you. All right. Lean into the fear. So I just need to pick a week and just do it? Yes.

You're tempting me, Sean. Pick a week within the next seven. Yeah, because I have a week in mind. As we're recording this, I have just shipped the photos field guide. So I'm in between that and the next one. I'm thinking maybe next week I could get away with it. It's a few days. I'm not sure I could get away with a week next week.

When within the next seven weeks, could you schedule a week sabbatical? I'm gang. I'm opening my calendar while we're podcasting. We're doing this. We're doing this. Okay. Well,

I will be in mid production on something new, but I guess I could take a week off in the middle of it. In my head, I've always thought I would only do these in-between releases, but I'm not sure why that's a rule. what we're doing right now. It's what we're experiencing right now. It won't happen. And so I know for myself, if I don't schedule it and have it repeat, I'll never schedule it again for myself. I'm just going to think myself out of it. I have to let the calendar dictate. And I just look at the calendar and someone says, you want to schedule a podcast interview? And I look and I say, well, I've got a sabbatical this week. So it's either going to be before or after. And the calendar just tells me. And so the calendar ensures I'm going to get that sabbatical week every seven weeks. And what that also means is I'm going to get that seven weeks worth of work done in six weeks. And as efficient as we all are on this show, we all waste time.

I know because I've tracked my time and my output is really high. I'm prolific and I still waste time. So it's just a matter of getting those seven weeks worth of work done and six. So I guarantee, David, you're going to get all the work done. Everything you need to get done, you're going to get it done. all the work done, everything you need to get done, you're going to get it done. And you're going to ensure you have this built in recurring space for you to recharge and get new ideas. How do you deal with, cause I know you like to make things as well. Um, if you're in the middle of making something like I, in my mind, I'm my next field guide is going to be hot and

heavy in the middle of production. Cause I'm looking now at my calendar the week of July 13th, starting Monday, July 13th. I know I'm going to be in the middle of production then. How, if I take this week off, am I going to be able to keep myself from not just sitting there and screencasting all week long? Here's the beautiful thing. If you want to do that, it will give you energy and it will feel restful. Your wife might think it looks like you're working and that makes sense, but it's going to feel restful. So what you also need to be prepared for though, David, is the very likely possibility that right now you think you're going to want to do that.

But when you get there, you may actually realize, wow, I didn't know how much I needed to rest until I gave myself the opportunity to rest. And really, I just want to take a break from this. So you're free to move the needle, but you can't track moving the needle. You can't measure your success based on whether you move the needle, because success could be you just saying, I don't feel like it today. I'm literally fidgeting in my seat as I'm looking at my calendar right now, guys. All right. So I am going to commit on this show. First of all, I'm going to take a couple of days

next week because I really need a break. But the week of July 13th, don't call me, gang. Don't call me. And Mike, we're going to have to plan our show recording. Because that gives me enough time to plan around it. Do a double episode? Yeah, whatever. I've got plenty of time between now and then. But again, then we'll be here before you know it. Okay, so one more thing. Make sure to set that to repeat every seven weeks. It's a scary decision to make right now, but you only have to make it once. Sabatical in my calendar. Maybe it needs its own calendar.

All right, so I'm going to do that. It's going to make it repeat. Let's see. I will report back to you, Sean. Please, please do. I'm excited about this right now. I'm excited for you. I I'm excited when my employees get sabbatical weeks, like some people might think as an employer, I'm paying them. Why would I be excited that they're going to not work? And it's like, that's, it's such a short sighted way to look at it. You know, would you want your employees to not sleep at night and just work all day? You know, they're, they're going to burn out, right? I'm excited because I know they're going to go recharge. They're going to work on their novel.

They're going to record that album. They're going to outline a course. They're going to go hiking. They're going to get reinvigorated. They're going to bring back new ideas. You know, Gmail was created out of Google's then 20% time or the Fridays where they let people work on whatever they want. So many companies and the best ideas come from this time that's set aside. And so I'm excited when the people I pay are going to take time off because,

hey, that's your job. I know this is going to contribute to everything. And I know for you, David, this is just going to be a game changer. All right, I have logistical questions. I have more to ask you right after this. For anybody who bills their hours, this is probably obvious, but even if you are employed or billing per project, you still need to estimate how long a specific task is going to take. Time tracking helps you stay on track with those estimates and make sure that you don't end up in

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Stop guessing how you spend your time and instead focus on doing what you're good at. We thank Timing for their support of Focused and all of RelayFM. Okay, I guess the first place I start with, Sean, is we're recording this in mid to late May 2020, the middle of a global pandemic. There's a good chance we're still going to be in a global pandemic in on July 13. How do I pull this off with my entire family also stuck at home with me? Yeah, that that is definitely one of the common questions. And just as a guideline, recognize that your first tendency is to go towards the things you can't control and say, these are problems, which that makes a lot of sense. And we can talk about those things, but I would just encourage you to shift your focus towards the things you can control because there are many of those things. So maybe you have different things in your family's life. You need to drive someone somewhere or you need to be available at a certain time. You know, yes,

those are obligations. And so, you know, we have some of those things in our lives and it's not going to be completely perfect. Actually, I want to highlight that because I forget to say this. Actually, I want to highlight that because I forget to say this. Just remember, it's not going to be completely perfect. And that is okay. My first two years of sabbaticals were not as restful as they could have been. And it was kind of tricky. And even in the four years since, plenty of my sabbatical weeks have not been perfect. But that's okay.

Like any process, especially if you're writing, I would highly encourage journaling throughout this. How do you feel in the mornings? You know, what is your experience like? You want to remind your future self what this is like, because when you get into that next sabbatical, and especially the third one, the third is where I find that it clicks. So when you do this first sabbatical, and especially the third one, the third is where I find that it clicks. So when you do this first sabbatical, it's going to feel like a vacation because that's the closest thing you have as a reference point. The second sabbatical, it's going to come too quick. You're going to think, how is it my sabbatical time again? I'm used to waiting 50 weeks. I have too much going on. There's no way I can possibly do this. And I've seen this again

and again and again. Everyone struggles with that second sabbatical. I had to grit my teeth through it, you know, which sounds sad, but that was how it was for me. The third sabbatical is where it clicks. So just know that. That's when it's going to feel right. Your body is craving it. You're looking forward to it. You're starting to feel that rhythm of time off, time on. So just remember that it doesn't have to be perfect. Focus on the things you can control and free your obligations where you can, as opposed to the places where you can't. And according to my calendar, my third one will be October 19th. So it's already on the calendar, Sean. It's so exciting to see those next ones too.

Yeah. Because you know they're coming up, obviously not to jam pack them with activities, but just to know, oh, that's coming up. That's really cool. And what it does also, David, is it creates these built-in six-week sprints. So most people just think in terms of, I'm showing up to work today, and I'm showing up to work tomorrow, and the next day, and the next week, and the next week, and eventually there's the holidays, and maybe there's a vacation,

but it's just kind of endless. Whereas now, it forces you to think in these six-week cycles. So you get to ask the question, what am I going to get done in these six weeks? It forces you to get things done in these sprints, you know, these cycles. And it's just, it's so much more invigorating, right? Because even if you think, well, some projects take longer than six weeks, hey, that's okay. Any project that's bigger than that, we can break into sections. And this six-week cycle is for this piece of the big, huge project. This six-week cycle is for this next piece of the big, huge project. And then what do you do in terms of, so I picked this one out in July for a reason. It's the first time I'm going to take a week off like this.

I need to plan for it. I need to plan for it. You know, I need to have the blog posts set up. I need to have the client issues on the ground as much as possible. But just what's your experience of kind of planning for that? Like, for instance, you said earlier, you know, let your clients know you're not available for the next five days. I think the way I'm going to handle this, because this is a hangover of the other hangups I told you earlier, is I'm probably just going to have a response email planned. Because for a lot of the 150 or so people I represent, I won't hear from them at all that week, and I don't want to bother them telling what I'm doing. So I need to plan that. How am I going to have a response in place for those contacts? But what are the other things people do to plan for these weeks?

Yeah, the communication part is the biggest thing. Communicating to clients, people that you work with, people that you record podcasts with, people that are in your life, in your family, just communicating that. And I think you'll be surprised at, you know, the more you're kind of transparent about this, you'll be surprised at how positive the response is. What I've found is a lot of people say that that sounds so great. You know, I want to do that for myself. Good for you. Usually people aren't super disappointed. And when it comes to content output, I like to double up on my podcast recordings. And one way you can do this

really easily is do a part one, part two, or turn something into a series. And then you just record it in one go with your co-host. And now you've got your episodes lined up. Yeah, well, we're lucky because the show is timeless. We don't cover news. So the audience probably knows once in a while we record a show a little early. So that's not an issue. Now, what about once the week gets here and I wake up that first day and I have no schedule and I don't know what to do with myself? I mean, what are the emotions? What am I going to feel?

And what are the mistakes I'm going to make because suddenly I don't have moving the needle bearing down on me? to make because suddenly I don't have moving the needle bearing down on me? Well, if you don't schedule anything for that week, you will avoid 90% of all the problems you could experience on a sabbatical. So if you manage that, you're way ahead. So you're going to feel, it's going to feel strange. So expect it to feel strange. Also expect the first sabbatical to feel somewhat like a vacation, although that may not kick in until days three, four, and five. Don't be surprised if all you want to do is rest. And maybe that looks like watching Star Wars or, you know, just watching YouTube or maybe that's just me, you know, playing Nintendo or something. Maybe you just want to just lay on

the couch and just soak it all in. Don't be surprised if you're not actually feeling like, yeah, I want to keep working on my course. That may happen. And if it does, awesome. And don't feel guilty about working on whatever you want to work And if it does, awesome. And don't feel guilty about working on whatever you want to work on, because that's the point. But don't be surprised also, if you just want to, you just want to sit there and soak it all in. Is there something magical about that seven weeks? Or is the more important aspect of this, the regularity of the sabbaticals? of the sabbaticals? I don't know if I would say magical necessarily. But what I do like is I like the numbers. You know, the original sabbatical that people talk about is seven

years. And you've got seven days in a week. And so it's just kind of a nice like, you got all these sevens. I don't know, maybe I just like numbers like that. But I would say every month would be too frequent. And much longer than seven starts to be too infrequent. You know, then it's kind of like, well, I'm thinking in marathon terms, because I'm about to run one, but you need those aid stations periodically. You can't just have more water and Gatorade at a station further along. You got to hit that sweet spot and frequency. So Mike, now you've been doing sabbaticals as part of your work with Sweet Setup. And so this isn't your first, you know, rodeo. What were your feelings and experiences as you went through the first couple? Well, it feels great. Although talking to Sean, maybe I'm not doing them right because those sabbaticals are basically a blank media sabbatical. And after this conversation today, I feel like I need to unhook all of the other

inputs and all of the other family obligations while doing these in order to get the full effect. They have been great. It is very nice to know that we have set these business goals and we've worked hard towards these and now we can disconnect and not think about work for a week. these and now we can disconnect and not think about work for a week. That does feel great, but I think there is something to not having any obligations during that period. I'll tell you, Mike, I had an employee who for many years did the same thing that you're describing. As much as I implored him, obviously it's a really big deal because you have to get your entire family on board with this, and that's no trivial matter. But as much as I implored him, you know, set aside this time, don't schedule things. What he would do is schedule lots

of things, lots of, you know, trips and family things. And he never did quite get the restful benefits of the sabbatical. I mean, it's nice to be able to do some other extracurricular activities, but it wasn't that kind of deep rest that I'm talking about. Yeah. And if you would have told me, if we would have had this conversation three months ago, I probably wouldn't have seen how that would be possible because the kids are in piano lessons and they play soccer at the Y and all of these other things. But basically all of that came to a screeching halt overnight. And what these last couple of months have shown us is that yes, it is possible. The kids are not suffering just because they are not being driven constantly to different activities.

being driven constantly to different activities. Have you guys also felt that like the tinge of guilt that comes from like, you know, there's actually a lot of things that are really great in life now because of this pandemic. Do you get that feeling? Yes. Oh, yeah, absolutely. In fact, I had a conversation with a friend a couple weeks after it started. Because right at the beginning, we realized we had a family meeting, sat everybody down. We've got five kids at home and we said, you know, we don't know how long this is going to last, but it looks like we're going to be spending a lot of time together. This can be awesome or this can be really annoying. It's kind of up to you guys. And they responded really well. And it's been great. We're eating every meal together. We're playing board games

every night. I mean, it's been cool. And I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine who also has a family a couple of weeks into this. And he said something like, I feel bad because I shouldn't be enjoying this, but I am. And I don't really feel bad about it. I think it's kind of finding the silver lining. And we're very fortunate. We haven't been affected. I haven't been affected to the level some other people have. I still have a job, still have a roof over my head. You know, I have a lot to be thankful and grateful for. But I do think that this has caused us to rethink what is necessary, what is essential. And we do not want to just jump back into all of the things that we were doing when we return to a normal, whatever that looks like. My wife and I have been talking

about that. What are the things that we really want to get back into, and what things do we want to just let go? Because one thing we do know is that we do not want to be as busy as we were before. one thing we do know is that we do not want to be as busy as we were before. Yeah. Yeah. For me, it's been similar too, because my kids are older. I thought that the days of being able to spend real vast amounts of time as a family unit were gone. You know, one had, one daughter had moved out. The other one is getting ready to move out for college. My wife has gone back to work, but suddenly, you know, college is kind of canceled, you know, so they're here. My wife is laid off, so she's home. And there are all sorts of negative consequences for these things. But a positive is we're all here. And it's like, I didn't think, they are going to eventually get back to school and hopefully should get back to work. And, and maybe those days will never come back again, but at least I can stop and enjoy it now because when they were young, I was working, you know, for the man and I had very little control over my life and did frequent trials where it means

I wasn't around a lot. So I got a second bite at the apple. where it means I wasn't around a lot. So I got a second bite at the apple. I will tell you with younger kids at home that being around them all the time is exhausting. My wife and I go to bed every night just completely spent. But also, we believe that this is a season where we're able to sow a lot of that time and believe that there's going to be fruit that comes from this for a very long time. Now, we're a little bit weird maybe when it comes to our family. We actually started a podcast together called The Intentional Family because we've got family core values and all these systems that we have at home to sow the seeds so we have those relationships with our kids as they get older that you know when they are in high school college dealing with difficult situations that they feel comfortable talking to us about that kind of stuff and they understand what a

shared vision of a clean room is too you got to make sure exactly yep yep so i'm never gonna let never gonna let you live that one down mike i'm sorry well you can't yell at them for for not putting stuff away if you don't show them what what it looks like you know so that that's part of this is like this vision i use that kind of loosely but i do think there is some some truth to that. If I expect them to do things a certain way, I have to model that for them first. I can't just get mad at them for having their room be messy if I never showed them where the toys go. In a way, this pandemic has been, well, the downfall of my nomadic travel the world year, but it's been a gift in the sense of, you know, in terms of my being an ambassador for this sabbaticals idea, because it's given so many

people a taste of what a little bit more freedom can look like. And, you know, like with the whole working from home thing, a lot of people are experiencing working from home and remote work for the first time. And a lot of remote work advocates are trying to sit, trying to explain like, hey, there's a lot about this that isn't normal. So if you have a bad taste in your mouth about remote work, know that it's, it's not just remote work that's problematic. It's the fact that, by the way, we are still all living in a global pandemic. Similarly, you know, we are seeing some of the benefits collectively of having more time, you know, less commuting, more time with the family, like kind of taking a step back and evaluating, like, what do we want our lives to look like? What is essential? And a lot of those things are sabbatical benefits. And so for me, it's almost been a gift because, you know, people actually have this tangible example from taking a step back and re-evaluating their lives

that comes with sabbaticals, but it's hard to understand if you've never had that experience. And so just, just think about how, how much you've been reevaluating your life in these past few months and, and looking at what's essential and how you want to optimize things and what's important and your relationships and just taking a step back. That's what sabbaticals are going to give you. All right, Sean. So I am going to be Indiana Jones. I'm going to lift my foot and jump off the cliff on July 13th. What are the two or three big mistakes I'll make? Or what should I be looking out for?

I mean, I've pretty much given them to you. The main thing was scheduling things. And then it would be probably being disappointed that you didn't have some certain kind of output because you're still thinking in terms of moving the needle and just realize, hey, if you did what you wanted to do today, then that's a win. That's a success. And then again, to reiterate, I would say not journaling would be a mistake because this is such a cool experience and it's so hard to remember where you were in the moment looking back. And so if you capture that, that's just going to be

such a gift for yourself later. Another thing like in my mind, there's a little like, you know, the little devil on your shoulder that says, oh, you got a week off. In fact, I've been clearing my week as you guys have been talking. If you look at my calendar, it's, it's empty. There's only three things on here that involve other people. I have to get those offloaded to someone else. Mike, I'm going to talk to you about that week's episode. Anyway, there's a little devil on my shoulder saying, oh, this is great. The week is clear.

You should block some time to think about new titles or think about where you want to go. That's a mistake, right? Tell me I'm not allowed to do that. You're not allowed to do that. If you get there and you want to do it, awesome. Got you. Okay. You know, that doesn't sound as bad because I was so intimidated by the idea when we started this recording of just trying to, like, am I supposed to spend the whole week playing video games? That could be misery for me. Right, right. It's whatever you want, which includes working on your course.

So one last question from me, Sean. Have you noticed how what you want to work on during those sabbatical weeks has changed over the years that you've been doing this? I know you mentioned the first one felt like a vacation. It wasn't until the third one that it really clicked. But do you find that typically now you go in there and you are looking for those things that just because you're free to do them give you energy? Or do you still kind of like stumble across the finish line and you need to let your body rest for a while? I'm so glad you asked this because it made me think of two things. So I've identified that sabbaticals tend to fall into three categories. One, project sabbaticals, two, rest sabbaticals,

and three, travel sabbaticals. Now, I don't plan these ahead of time. Only when I look back, I can kind of feel like that was more of a rest sabbatical. That was more of a project sabbatical. But I've just kind of identified my moods retroactively. But then the second thing that I thought of is I actually do keep a, this is a project in my things app that's called sabbatical project ideas. And so anytime I think like, oh, it would be really fun to, you know, rewire my video setup, or it would be really good if I kind of rethought my onboarding sequence or whatever is in my mind. I just toss that into

the sabbatical project ideas. And to be clear, it's not anything I'm scheduling or obligating myself to do. But if I do find that I'm there and I'm just having the energy and feeling an itch to work on something, but I'm coming up blank as to what that is, I can just take a glance at my sabbatical project ideas and I can run with something. So that makes me nervous. Sabbatical project ideas. I can see how my brain would deal with something. That makes me nervous. Sabbatical project ideas. I can see how my brain would deal with that.

I probably shouldn't be sharing that before you've done your first one. You don't get to add that project yet. It is funny how the lizard brain works, but there's a part of me that always wants to be working on something. I'm not sure whether it comes

from depression or appearance or what it is, but it's a very hard thing to set down for me. It is definitely uncomfortable, especially at first until you get accustomed to it. But just lean into that discomfort and trust the process and know your future self will thank you. And in the meantime, so I've got seven weeks before I do the first one, I'm going to go to sabbatical.blog. That's Sean's blog. And I'm going to like power read through all your blog entries because that's the way my brain works, right? I need to like read all your blog entries about this. I need to finally compile the book. So if you go to sabbaticalbook.co, that's a little redirect to the book page. That's one of my sabbatical project ideas is, hey, edit the book on sabbaticals. And

what do you know, I haven't, what am I five months into this, and I still haven't worked on it. Well, hey, that's fine. I wasn't feeling it. I'll do it when I want to. Sure. And when you do release it, let us know. We'll let the listeners know, even if we don't have you back for that specific week, but we'll let everybody know because I am eagerly awaiting that book as well. Great. Mike, what are the mistakes you've made on your sabbatical? You guys, I'm sorry. I'm just totally just sucking you dry information on this episode, but this is a big deal to me. I think the biggest mistakes that I've made, and this is kind of retroactively, as I mentioned talking to Sean, I've got several action items from this too on how to take my next one.

But I think the biggest mistakes that I've made have been clearing the decks work-wise, but then still having things scheduled in other domains. And even something as simple as maintaining all of the regular family obligations, I feel like that kind of has sapped my sabbaticals of their effectiveness. Now, one thing as I'm thinking about this as we're talking that I think I could pull off is the next time that I have a sabbatical, maybe I can't go the full seven days, but at least three or four days, just clear the decks and go to, so we have a, my parents have a house in Door County. It's about two hours from here, and it's kind of a touristy place, but there's no tourists right now. So the whole pace when you get up there, it just feels much slower. It kind of forces you to rest. And if I am able to,

which I think I'm able to do this, you know, clear all the commitments and just say, okay, let's go up there for three, four days, not have anything planned, just going to a separate location like that and being in that separate environment where there isn't that inherent pressure to go do the things, I think I could pull that off. Yeah. I wonder if Rachel knows this episode means that she's going to be really busy one week every seven or eight. Well, not me personally. I mean, that's the other thing I think that has been difficult with this is, yeah, I've

got this sabbatical week from work, but all of the family stuff still happens. So I'm challenged by the idea of sabbaticaling together. And I know that that relies on communication, to your point, Sean, but I think it's definitely possible. David, have you been to Kauai? Well, I was going to for my honeymoon, but the island blew away right before. It was in 93, and that was the year that literally we watched TV. We saw the roof blow off our hotel. Oh, my gosh. So we ended up going to Tahoe. that was the year that literally we watched TV. We saw the roof blow off our hotel, um,

about, you know, gosh, so we ended up going to Tahoe, but, but the, yeah, uh, we go to Hawaii every two or three years.

And even though we don't go to Kauai, I, uh, it's a very special place. Hawaii is for me in terms of relaxing. What would you say? It's the most beautiful place for you or where would you say is the most beautiful place i mean the that and yosemite but the but there's something about hawaii when you get off an

airplane and you inhale the first inhalation which is amazing but even more amazing is the first exhalation it feels like you're just like you're just like vaporizing everything you took with you from the mainland. I don't know. I think it's a California hippie thing, but going to Hawaii is really great. You have me wanting to go back now. I was going to say just, you know, when you talk to someone who hasn't been to Hawaii first or hasn't been to Yosemite ever in their life and this is their first time and you're telling them what to expect

and what to check out and how this is going to be. Like, you just feel excited for them because you've been there, you've taken that first breath and that first exhale and you know what it's going to be like for them and you're excited. That's how I feel about this. Like, hopefully you can hear the enthusiasm in my voice coming through the internet. But like, when you've experienced something so great, and someone else is about to experience that, like, you just have such a, like a vicarious excitement. Now, should I be thinking about, because my prior failed attempt at a sabbatical, I think it was right after you came on last time, but I did not commit on air, but I, I booked a room up in Lake Arrowhead where in Southern California,

we've got mountains and there's a bunch of fancy people that buy cabins and then they realized that they never use it. So it's a great place for Airbnb. And the, uh, so I booked one and then I canceled at the last minute because I felt like I was too busy to do it. But should I be looking at that for my week? Should I take a couple days? Even in the middle of a pandemic, I could probably go up there and get a cabin by myself for a few days. Or is that like second level? Yeah, it is second level. So like I was saying, that does tend to be one of the categories is a travel sabbatical. But I would definitely encourage you to, to start with a sabbatical at home because it's, it's less layers of complexity

and, and exist preexisting associations. So I would start with just at home and then eventually, you know, that's kind of the exception that sometimes you do have to plan a little bit when it involves travel. Like if you're going to experience a sabbatical week in another place or you're booking a cabin, like that does involve, you know, usually you have to buy it before you get there. So that's, that is an exception. But I wouldn't start with that for your first one. And I would also add, think of this in terms of a set of three sabbaticals. So as I mentioned before, it's really going to click on the third one. This first one's going to feel awesome. The second one's going to feel like it comes too soon and you're going to be really, really tempted to cancel it

like you did last year. Go ahead and go through with it anyway and know that the third one is where it clicks. So if you just kind of mentally commit to, all right, I'm going to do this set of three sabbaticals, and I know I'm not going to really get into the rhythm until the third. Well, I am excited. I know going ahead into this that the big problem for me will be when the client calls with a quote-unquote emergency, and me being able to scale back my response to that and say, well, I'm not going to get it to you tomorrow because it truly isn't an emergency, but prior me would

still deliver the next day because that's kind of my mindset. But I think I can get through this, guys. I think we can make this happen. I'm excited for you. All right. Well, sabbatical.blog is where you go if you're interested in doing this let me know we've got a forum over at um uh talk.macpowerusers.com the focused forum is in there if you guys have done them or if you're planning them or if you've got advice for me or for each other i think this would be a good episode to kind of talk that through, but also definitely go over to Sean's website. And so you really, I guess you're just not sure when the book's going to come out because you're still, you know, you're still on sabbatical. I'm not, I really wanted to finish it last year,

but just with all the health stuff we were dealing with, it didn't happen. But you know, I think there's probably a silver lining because- It's going to be way better. Well, yeah, when I had written that book, I didn't have the sabbatical year experience. It was only the weeks. And so I think that'll add some interesting perspective. Yeah. And the travel and the pandemic, I feel like it's going to be a way better book now. So I can't wait to read that. And then also head over toE-S.com to see all of the cool stuff Sean makes. Sean, do you do any social media? Yes.

So you can find me, the same thing, at seanwes, S-E-A-N-W-E-S. Pretty active on Instagram, Twitter. Awesome. And we are The Focus Podcast. You can find us over at relay.fm slash focus. we are the Focus Podcast. You can find us over at relay.fm slash focus. For those listeners that made it to the end, I'm sorry for making this all about me. I get accused of that once in a while, and I'm probably guilty of it today. I take full responsibility. In fact, I

insisted on it. So that's on me, and I was happy to do it. You guys have me very excited about this. I think I'm going to actually pull it off this time, and we'll see how it all goes. I can report back. And Sean, I hope everything goes okay with you out there and you get settled. And I'm glad that you're still taking time to write that. I really appreciate you taking time on your sabbatical to come on the show to share this story with our listeners. I know that there's a lot of people more than me

interested in this stuff. I'm so happy to do it. I'm so excited that you guys invited me because I get really fired up about this stuff. I can't wait to hear how it goes for you and read the follow-up, see the ideas that come and the weeks and the months and the years to come. Just all the ideas that are going to come out of these sabbaticals. I just can't wait. Well, just like I said earlier, I do find when I give myself space, magic happens. In terms of not only just ideas for things that I do for work, but just relationships in my life and my general overall happiness. And I am guilty of not putting enough space in my life.

So I'm going to make the choice now to, to force that in. So thanks again, Sean, for coming on and thanks to our sponsors, Pingdom, Squarespace and timing. And we will talk to you all in a couple of weeks.