Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine and Covenants 14-17 : Dr. Casey Griffiths : Part I

Episode Date: February 14, 2021

We meet the Whitmers and follow the early Restoration Heroes as they travel and work between the Trifecta of Translation: Harmony, PA, Colesville, NY, and Palmyra, NY. Dr. Casey Griffiths explains the Whitmer family's closeness, shares a story of miraculous farming, and relates the early Saints' character.

Welcome to Follow Him, the week we podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith. And I'm John By the way. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow Him.

My friends welcome to another episode of Follow Him. We are a podcast designed to help individuals and families with their come follow me studies. Today we have Casey Griffiths with us and I have an official bio from a religious education down at BYU. Casey Griffiths was born and raised in Delta, Utah. He served as a mission in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Returned home to complete bachelor's in history from BYU and later earned a master's in religious education and a PhD in education leadership and foundations at BYU. And he's focused on the development of religious education programs among the Latter-day Saints before joining the faculty in religious education at BYU. He's served in seminary and

institutes for 11 years as a teacher and a curriculum writer and his research focuses on the history of religious education. He's married to Elizabeth Ottley Griffiths. They live in Saratoga Springs with three adorable children and Casey. We're so glad to have you today. Good to be here. Uh, four children now. Oh, that's great. We got an update growing.

Yeah. Oh, Casey, we're so excited having you here. And just on a personal note, I've known Casey for many years. We've been in the same hallway at BYU and, um, we were in the same PhD program. Yeah. I mean, just so, yes, a long time. In case he's, everything you would hope that Casey is, he is. He is kind, he's generous, he's humble. He is just very down to earth.

One of my favorite stories of him is I saw this nice code he had on and I said, I like that code. Where'd you get that code? And he looked at it I said, I like that code, where'd you get that code? And he looked at it and said, oh, at the DI. And he's like, that's where I get a lot of my clothes. That's where all my books come from. I've got some. Yeah.

You could probably pick up John and I's books there at the DI, right? John, we have our own shelf. Listen, there are some amazing books at the DI. Just we didn't know we were going to do a commercial for desert industries Keep up the good work. We are excited to have you with us Dr. Griffiths and we want to tap into your Your historian brain today for our listeners. So this week our come follow me Lesson takes us into the Doctrine Covenants of course section 14, 15, 16, and 17.

These are shorter sections and if I'm a first-time reader through the Doctrine Covenants or you know kind of my first exposure to church history, I run into a name, a family name that I probably haven't heard before. You know, it doesn't show up in Joseph Smith history and it doesn't show up yet in the Doctor and Covenants until I get to section 14 where it talks about the Whitmer family. So what can you tell us about the Whitmers and how they came in contact with Joseph Smith? Well, just as an organizing principle,

when you're studying the early history of the church, you can simplify it down to three families, basically. I mean, the church at this stage is really three families in three different locations. There's the Smiths in Palmyra, and the Knights in Colesville and Harmony, Pennsylvania, and then there's the Whitipmers in Fayette. And in sequence, Joseph Smith gets the plates in Palmyra,

spends three months trying to translate, but there's just too much persecution in Palmyra. So he leaves and goes down to Harmony, where the Knights are and where Emma's families from, and about a year of Book of Mormon translation takes place in harmony. Then things in harmony get too intense and they contact this family called the Whipmers that Oliver has ties to, and they move up to Fayette, New York, and that's where they spend the last month of translation. So, for a lot of the translation, it's just Joseph and Oliver and Emma and this little cabin in Harmony, Pennsylvania. The great thing about the Whipmers is they're this big sprawling family, a number of siblings

in and out of the house. And so a lot of our accounts of translation and what went on during the last month of the translation of the Book of Mormon come from the Wipmer family. And then a year later, when the church is organized, it's organized in the Wipmer family home. Any idea how Oliver got in touch with the Whitmers? Is there a, do they, did they leave any account of how they met Oliver? Cause he ends up marrying a Whitmer, right?

Yeah. He, Oliver is a Whitmer. I mean, it's good to think of him that way. He's a brother-in-law. He marries Elizabeth Whitmer. But we don't really know exactly how they come into contact, except that they were friends with Oliver before Oliver moved to Palmyra and boarded with the Smiths as the local school teacher.

And then Oliver goes down and volunteers as Joseph Scribe and that's when translation takes off. But there is a revelatory element too, Lucy Mac Smith, who's one of the best sources for this early period, uses the language that Joseph was commanded to write to the whipners. We don't have a revelation that marks that, but her phrase is Joseph was commanded to write a letter to one David Whipmer, and man Joseph had never seen, but he was instructed to say to him that he must come

with this team immediately to convey Joseph and Oliver back to his house, which was 135 miles away, at that they might remain there until translation was completed. So things are starting to get bad in harmony where Joseph and Oliver have been engaged in translation. And Lucy Mack makes it sound like the Lord intervened, that Oliver may have had a prior relationship with the Whitmers, but it's really the Lord that's telling Joseph, this is where you're going to complete the translation and these people will provide shelter and protection while this work is going on. Yeah, I wonder

Casey, I wonder how much the Whitmer's new of Joseph Smith before this. I mean, there had to be, I mean, Faya and Palmyra and Manchester, there's I mean, Faea and Palmyra and Manchester, there's, what, they're 30 miles apart. I wonder if they'd heard anything. Faea's about 30 miles away from the Hill Camorra. And so it's very likely, because the whole area is kind of up in arms, especially after Joseph gets the plates, that the Whitmer's knew a little bit

about what was going on and had received. I'd like to think they're on spiritual witness. There's a couple of unique experiences, for instance, that happen before the Whitmers go to get Joseph, that kind of convinced them that they need to engage in this process. What, I got to hear this. Yeah, I'm in fact, this was one of my questions. I wanted to ask the story that sounds like it could possibly be a three knee fights type story involving plaster of Paris which I used in elementary school to make stuff, but apparently there's an agricultural use for plaster of Paris. Yeah, so this story comes from Lucy Max Smith again. She's our source on most of this stuff and

She says that David was David Whitmer is the one that's supposed to go down and get Joseph and Oliver at the end of May 1829 and bring them back to Fayette to complete the translation. And she said that David was getting ready to go, but he had to sow the soil with what the plaster of Paris, which is this action that's designed to reduce the acidity of the soil so that it works a little bit better. The way she records it, she said, the next morning, David took a wooden measure under his arm and went out to sew the plaster, which he had left two days previous and heaps near his sister's house. But on coming the place, he discovered it was gone. He ran to a sister and inquired of her. If she knew what had become of it, being surprised, she said, why do you ask me? Was it not all

sewn yesterday? Not to my knowledge answered, David, I'm astonished at that continued to sister for the children came to me in the fornoon beg to me to go out and see the men sew the plaster in the field saying they never saw anybody sew plaster so fast in their lives. I accordingly went and saw three men. This is your three knee fight connection here at work in the field. This the children said, but supposing that you had hired some help on account of your hurry, I went immediately in the house and gave the subject no further attention. Lucy goes on to say, David made considerable inquiry in regard to the matter, both among his relatives and neighbors, but was not able to learn who had done it. However, the family

were convinced that there was an exertion of a supernatural power connected with the strange occurrence, and David immediately set out for Pennsylvania and arrived there two days without entering his horses in the lease, though the distance was 135 miles. So they've got this big work to do. I mean, we sometimes forget that in the background of all these miraculous spiritual events, you still have to plant your crops and harvest them and and do things like sow the field with plaster of Paris, they have these three men show up and do it, and this is, some people have made that connection because there's three,

and because nobody seems to have known where they came from, David didn't hire them, his sister doesn't know where they came from, that these are somehow connected to the three Nephi disciples in the book of Mormon. Wow, that's absolutely incredible. I can't imagine, I wish this would happen to me more often. Right, where someone says, all your,

that paper was written by somebody, you turned it in. I did. For me, it would be three men appeared and graded all your papers papers and I'd be like, I must have something important to do elsewhere. But. So the interesting part though,

is it sounds like there was an urgency connected to it because David was gonna delay a little bit, right? So the plaster in the field, and because somebody did this, he was like, oh, okay, I better go to harmony. Is that kind of the gist of it? That's kind of it. Things in harmony where Joseph and Oliver

have done the first two months of translation, we're starting to get bad, really bad. In fact, the next summer, after the translation is done, Joseph goes back to harmony, that's where he lives, that's where his farm is, that's where his wife's family is from. And the next summer, he's arrested two times and brought before a court Eventually he and Emma a year after this are gonna have to leave harmony altogether

Because persecution is so severe down there and so there's indications I mean Lucy Maxx says that Joseph really had the feeling that someone was going to attempt and make an attempt on his life And that's why they had to get out of the area and go up to Fayette. As you say, in a way, the Whitmer's are, this is a life-saving mission, not just a, hey, we're going to help out with the work. Yeah, it's not just a, hey, this is a nice thing. I mean, the work might not go forward unless we intervene. And they intervene. It's a huge act of faith on their part, but it's a significant shift in the restoration.

From for the rest of the New York period, the Whitmer home is church headquarters. And that's starting the day David Whitmer picks them up and ends the day that the Lord commands them to all move to Ohio. Wow. John, what are you going to say? I just keep thinking of how ironic these names are. There's harmony where there wasn't a whole lot of harmony. There's liberty where there wasn't a whole lot of liberty. These interesting names in church history, but you know, the church, what they've done there is just beautiful

in harmony and moving some things around and having the highway moved. I can think of three places where they've succeeded in having the highway moved in Kirtland and Palmyra and in Harmony and then built these beautiful restorations of these cabins in harmony. Can't you go there and kind of be in almost the same space where a lot of the translation occurred? Yeah, and at each place there's a unique Special spirit. I mean in each place the churches rebuilt the structures the Joseph Smith would have been in when he's performing translation and for instance if you go to the Whitmer farm

The building is ised. They reconstructed it for the sesquist centennial of the church in 1980. But even sitting in a reconstruction, you just get this sacred feeling of translation and then later events that happen, for instance, that same summer, Joseph Smith said, the voice of God was heard in the chamber of all father Whitmer and authorize them to ordain each other to the Melchistic priest. I mean, it's a wonderful spirit. And you just get this sense that like this is one of those turning points in history and

to stand in the spot where it occurred is really a great honor. That is. And I believe there's a, to the east their cemetery with some is one of the Smiths infants that's there in the cemetery. Yeah, in harmony right next to where Joseph and Emma would have had their farm, there's a cemetery and there there's a little headstone for Alvin Smith, the first son of Joseph and Emma, obviously named after Joseph's brothers. This is the little boy that died during the episode with lost manuscript.

And that's part of the reason why Joseph Smith wasn't able to get up to Palmyra and find out what had happened to the manuscript was that Joseph and Emma had a baby die and then Emma almost died afterwards. So it's actually Emma two weeks after the birth, that tells Joseph, my family can take care of me, get up there and find out what happened.

Wow. I think each of these individual spots, they are, like you've said, Casey, they are special places. I will say this as I know both of you have guided church history tours. I've guided my own church history tours down there. And if I could, if I could tell these early saints one thing, I'd say,

could you do this a whole lot closer together because these bus rides are really long? And second, if you could do them around just better restaurants, um, that would be, that would be helpful as well. But sometimes I'm going, man, this is a two hour bus ride. They should have just done all this right here in Palmyra, right, John? Like, don't... Why do you gotta spread this out so much? Well, imagine 135 mile trip by horse as well. Lucy Mac, Lucy Mac makes the comments specifically that it was miraculous that he was able to travel that far and not injures horses. Which,

again, to them, a miracle is something different than what we talk about today. We complain about a two and a half hour bus ride. Imagine riding in a wagon. In fact, there's an incident on the way back from Harmony, the David Whitmer records too, that maybe you've heard of. That's where he sees the angel Moroni on the side of the road. Tell us about that.

I want to hear about that. David Whitmer lives longer than any of the three witnesses of the Book of the road. Tell us about that. I want to hear about that. David Whitmer lives longer than any of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon. A lot of people interview him. In one of the interviews, he says they're traveling from harmony back to Fayette. And this is the way he recorded. He said, a very pleasant, nice looking old man

suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with good morning. It is very warm. At the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand, we return the salutation and by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way, but he said very pleasantly, no, I am going to Camora. This name was something new to me. I did not know what Camora meant. The book of Mormon hasn't been published, so nobody knows the name Camora. We all

gazed at him and each other, and as I looked around, inquiredly of Joseph, the old men instantly disappeared. Joseph later on told me it was the messenger who had the plates and had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from harmony. So it's not just men traveling between harmony and fayette. It's angels, but it's funny to me that the Whitmer's, David sees the angel and Mary Whitmer also sees the angel. They both describe him as a pleasant looking old man, which we tend to imagine him as like this WWE wrestler figure that's huge and muscular. They describe him as a nice guy on the side of the road, and you expect an angel to say something more profound than it is very warm. But I guess he even angels talk about the weather, you know, it makes me kind of sad because

I think wait, you mean even when you're resurrected being you're doing stuff like man, it's hot, you know, maybe he's trying really hard to pretend not to be a resurrected being. So he's sitting in the room like gosh, you, boy, it is, it is warm for you, mortals. This is not. And he winks at Joseph Smith. Was it, was it Joseph who told him who he was? Yeah. Yeah. Joseph, apparently they get further down the road. And Joseph says, you know who that was? Yeah. You, cause you would imagine David turning to Joseph and going, where's Camora? And Joseph later on saying, well, that's the angel. So that's him in his 1800s garb, walking down the street. Oh, the next time you're in that two and a half hour drive between Fayette and Harmony, you can at least tell that story and fill a few minutes

of time. Right. Yeah. That is a great. I think too. When I've been there, I've just been impressed that the first time I drove by harmony, you know, 25 years ago, there was hardly anything there. And now the church has a nice church building there and has rebuilt these cabins, of course, moved the highway and everything. But it just made me think, oh, yeah. So when Joseph's translating, if he wanted to put something, something that could be verifiably ancient in the Book of Mormon, he could just go over to the Harmony Public Library and find something, you know. And it's like, there's nothing there. And even now, this is the

Church history side is like the only thing there. I guess maybe it was a bigger community at some point. Yeah, you're right. It was always relatively small and rural. All the places where the Book of Mormon was translated are relatively out of the way, small and not well trafficked. Okay, that's what I said, better restaurants. We've got to do this by better restaurants. So I have a couple more questions about the Whitmer's before we move into the meat of section 14. How old is David and, and is it his farmers? It is parents. It is his dad's farm.

So it's the Peter Whitmer senior farm. Peter's married to Mary Whitmer. And then their kids are John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Peter Christian Whitmer. There's also a couple Whitmer sisters like Elizabeth, who Mary is Oliver Cowdery. There's Catherine Whitmer, who Mary is Hyron Page, who's one of the eight witnesses of the book Mormon. And then there's Anna Whitmer. And David Whitmer is the closest and age to Joseph Smith. So it's likely that David and Joseph would have formed the strongest connection because they're at similar ages, they're at similar points in their life. It seems like David and Joseph and Oliver Coundry were kind of the three amigos during

this time that they were, they were very good friends and they were very close. But other Whitmer brothers like John and Christian and Peter Jr. are all involved in translation. And that's one of the interesting things about the translation as it happens at the Whitmer Farm. It's like I said, it's not just Joseph and Oliver and Emma like it is down in harmony. This is a whole bustling household with people moving in and out.

And that's why a lot of the historical accounts of translation are linked back to the Whitmer family. They're there during the last month. and a lot of them live multiple decades after they leave the church and share their histories. They're interviewed by a lot of people. Wow. What are just one more question about the Whitmers and then let's jump in. But they're of German descent, right?

Are they spiritual people before they meet Joseph? Because you look at Joseph's family and they were, some of them were devout Presbyterian, right? Were the Whitmers, did they have a religious background? They were very devout and very religious. I'm trying to remember their religious affiliation. One of the things you see in the recent video that was released that they show at Fayette is they depict the whitmers with German accents. And that probably

is accurate. Peter and Peter Sr. and Mary are both German immigrants. And so they would have spoken with the German accent. And the kids probably would have grown up around there too. I love that. I, man, I love that. And I remember Dr. McKay in his interview, he said, listen, these aren't crazy. You know, this isn't Joe Bob down by the river. These are upstanding people in the community.

These are competent, what did Dr. Dirk Mott say, John? These are competent farmers. Yeah. Oh, that has always been kind of a nice testimony boost Dr. Dirk Mott, say, John, these are competent farmers. Yeah. That has always been kind of a nice testimony boost for me. They weren't gullible fools. They were smart people. And then you get the Orson Prats and the Parley Prats

and later on, and these were smart people. And it helps me to go, yeah, this wasn't just some guy that was very charismatic and found a bunch of gullible people to follow him. Yeah, and even after later on in their life, David Whitmer, for instance, is elected mayor of Richmond, Missouri. He's a respectable member of the community. And when people cast aspersions on his testimony of the book, Mormon, he takes it as a personal insult. Like he asks people in the community where he lives to sign an affidavit, basically saying that he's a man of good character, that he's upright, that he's honest, and that he doesn't

lie to people, especially about something as big a deal as the book of Mormon. Well, and I've always thought, he knows he's answerable to a lot more than just Joseph someday for what he's going to do with his testimony of seeing the plates. So I've always thought, yeah, he's really careful. Now wait, I need it to be known that no, I saw those and I've never denied it. So I like what how old was he when he died? Casey? David makes it into his 80s, I believe. He's like I said, the longest lived of the Book of Mormon witnesses. And especially as more and more of the witnesses

pass away, more and more people try to interview David. There's a book about this thick, just called David Whitmer Interviews, where Lyndon Cook collected all of the people that sat down and spoke with David Whitmer, whether they were pro-church, anti-church, and what David said to them. It's a remarkable read, first of all, for consistency, but also because David gives more details about those early days and about the appearance of the angel Moroni than any other person does.

Well, and I know that the interpreter found, somebody's making a movie called Witnesses, right? Yeah, that comes out this summer, I believe. I'm excited for that because I think it was so wise to have witnesses and we'll get into this later perhaps, but to have three in a very spiritual way, to have eight in a very tactile way to see the plates and everything is amazing. Maybe now as we're learning who the Whitmer's are, can we look at what the Lord's message is to them in these three sections coming up? I want to hear, KC teaches the doctrine covenant to BYU. So I want to hear what his highlights are in these three sections

and how the Whitmer's would have received him. A couple of unique things in these sections. These all come during that month that Joseph Smith is at their home translating. And every historical account says it was a busy time. There's a lot going on, a lot of comings and goings. And Joseph and Oliver are rushing to complete the translation of the Book of Mormon. But along the way, it was very, very common for a person to approach Joseph Smith and say, what's the will of the Lord concerning me?

And that's exactly what happens in section 14, 15 and 16. These three Whitmer brothers, David, John and Christian, who are asking, what does the Lord want me to do? And each of the revelations is really short. Section 15 and section 16, for instance, are almost identical, except for one or two things about it. And each one of them follows a pattern that's common at this time,

starting with section four, which is first given to Joseph Smith's dad. A marvelous work is about to come forth. The Lord will generally tell them, you're calm to the work, and I want you to The Lord will generally tell them your call to the work, and I want you to thrust in your sickle with your might and start to harvest souls. A lot of these early people, whether it's section 4 of Joseph Smith, senior or section 11 is to Hiresmith, section 12 is to Joseph Knight, and then section 14 is to David Whitmer, they're among the earliest and most important missionaries for the church.

Now, there are a few differences though. For instance, verse seven, David Whitmer, this is section 14 verse seven, is told, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end, you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God. And it shall come to pass if you shall ask the Father, my name and faith believing you shall receive the Holy Ghost, which give

a utterance that you may stand as a witness of things of which you shall both hear and see that you may declare a penance under this generation. So right there, the Lord is hinting at bigger things for David that he's going to act in a role as a witness, which he does. He's one of the three witnesses. Almost every single one of the three witnesses in the eight witnesses is a member of the Smith family or the Whitmer family. The only exception is Martin Harris. He's the only one that's not linked either one of those families. But David's here is told specifically to endure to the end. Now, I mentioned that a lot of people

had the opportunity to speak to David Whitmer. One of them was BH Roberts, who becomes this important historian in the church later on. BH Roberts visits with David Whitmer after he leaves the church, and David Whitmer talks about the experience he has with the angel when the three witnesses see the plates. And BH Roberts said that the angel during the experience, the the theophony, turned and looked directly at David and said, David, blessed is he that endure to the end. And then B.A. Trabbert's comments and says, it's a sad reflection of these three witnesses. The David was the only one who died outside of membership in the church. I wonder if Marona was not trying to sound a warning to this stubborn man that perhaps whatever his experiences and trials may be that the last he too might have been

brought into the fold and might have died within pale of the church. So every single one of the witnesses has slight variances, but according to B.H. Roberts, David told him that the angel and the Lord in section 14 both specifically tell him that it's a marathon, that he's got to endure to the end. And though David never denies his witness of the Book of Mormon, he does become very bitter against the church later on in his life. Yeah, especially Joseph Smith. Yeah. Yeah, David writes a pamphlet in 1887, where he very bitterly 1987 where he very bitterly

Screeds against Joseph Smith and his angry and upset of him and yet there's this unique contradiction where David never ever denies The book of Mormon or that the book of Mormon was true or that the revelations that happened during this time were genuine so I always tell my students It worked out the best possible way it could have for the restoration movement, just not for the whippers, like you have this group of people that leave the church, but never done either testimony. So they have no motive to uphold Joseph Smith, if he's a fraud, and yet they refuse to deny their testimony to the day all of them leave the earth. One thing that I was hoping our listeners would that would happen as a result of our

podcast is seeing the Whitmer's in a positive light, how helpful they truly were to Joseph Smith, and that we can hear them out and listen to them and not think of them as kind of apostates, right? Yeah. And to be honest with you, a lot of the early events in the history of the church, the Whitmer's are a very important source. Johnipmer, who's one of the recipients of these revelations, as well, becomes the church historian in section 47. John writes in early history of the church that's invaluable to us today. And the other thing is, is John is probably responsible for recording most of the early revelations in the doctrine in covenants. There's a beautiful book called Revelation Book One, Revelation Book Two,

where John Whitmer sat down and recorded all of the early revelations that are given to Joseph. I mean, he's a major source for the doctrine in covenants. And so really until 1838 or so, there's no stronger witness in the church than the whippers, and they're real stalwarts. And even though we sometimes talk about the entire Whittmer family leaving, even that's not correct. Peter, Whittmer, and Christian Whittmer both die within the faith. It's later on in 1838 when the entire family leaves together. And that's one thing about the Whitt's too, is that they were united as a family. Like, they came into the church all in, when trouble came up in 1838,

they all left together too. And they stick together for the rest of their life. Most of them, except for Anna Wittmer, lived within a 50 mile radius of each other, and they try to start their own church a couple times too. Like, they definitely, as a family, were united on the same page. And that's something that's really admirable.

Yeah, they're very close to each other. I really like that. I wanted to mention two things in the section that I saw, John, and then maybe you can jump in. One, I'm a New Testament teacher, and so when the Savior approaches his apostles, he says, we're going to, from henceforth, you're going to catch men, right? And I like in section 14, it's the field is white, already to harvest. So as a teacher, he takes something that his students

already understand and says, okay, I'm going to help you, I'm going to help you understand my work, what we're going to do here. You know, I'm going to use farming because that's what you understand. So I'm going to use farming as this principle. And then in section 15 and 16, which you said case, you're very similar. He says, the greatest thing you can do for me

is declare repentance unto people, declare repentance unto the people. So as the Lord is changing his methods for his students, he's not changing the message. The message is always the same. Repent, repent, repent. And I've noticed in Joseph Smith's early life, it seems his experiences with divinity always start with repentance, right?

The first vision was about, can I be forgiven of my sins? Morone, I was, I felt like I, you know, had just fallen, I wasn't doing what I should be doing. So I'm going to repent. All of these divine experiences start with repentance. So for me, personally, I'm going, I need to repent more. If I want to have experiences with the divine, I better start looking for ways to repent. And you, John, you know very well. It's hard for me to repent because it's just hard to find things. Right? It's hard to find things to repent of, you know. But I'm going to look harder and see if I can find some things to repent of. You know, one thing that's always touched me about Joseph Smith at this stage in his life is that idea that

he needs to check in with God. Like, if you're reading about his experience with Moroni, he says, I was anxious to know my standing before the Lord. That's why he goes and prays. It's like he hasn't done anything super wrong, but he's just wondering, how come I'm not getting more? What, maybe I am doing something wrong and I didn't know it. There was an elder on my mission who he was a convert to the church. He had a giant marijuana leaf tattooed to his shoulder. We thought he

was the coolest guy ever. And he was so sincere that like he read that passage in Joseph's myth history. And he told me I prayed to know my standing before the Lord. And I was his own leader at the time. So he saw me as like an ecclesiastical figure. And I go, well, tell me what happened. He goes, I don't know that night I had a dream. And I was walking in a chapel and I went into this room and President Hinckley was there. President Hinckley was the prophet at the time. He said, President Hinckley looked at me and gestured and said, I need you to come over here and help me ordain this young man to the priesthood, Elder, because I know that you're worthy of the priesthood you hold. And this missionary looked at me and said,

what do you think that dream means? And I go, it sounds like you're worthy of the priesthood you hold. And it was funny because having grown up in the church, I had never once thought about that. Like I took my priesthood and my calling as a missionary for granted. I went home and I did the same thing. I didn't feel like I had a need to repent, but I hadn't asked my status before the Lord. And the next day, after I had said that prayer, we were out on a random media referral to drop off a Bible. And the lady that we were dropping the Bible off to said, I hear that you guys give blessings. Could you give me a blessing?

And I remember looking at my companion with a big grin on my face and saying, like, yes, we're worthy to do that. So let's go ahead. But in all these people, it's wonderful to see with David Whitmer, with John Whitmer, with the rest of the Whitmer's desire to know, am I okay? Like, what is my status before the Lord? And what work would He have me do?

We don't ask those questions often enough, maybe. No. The scary part is, if you ask the Lord, He'll probably tell you. Yeah. Yep. Probably tell you you're standing. As a father, if I don't know what to do

for family home evening, it sounds like in section 15 and 16, the word is like, well, the thing that's of most worth is declare repentance. So let's default to repentance and the atonement of Jesus Christ. Let's make that a big part of our focus of teaching our children or teaching our students. It sounds to me like the Lord is saying you can't talk about repentance enough.

Yeah, and I really, we brought this up in previous podcasts, but I just love the Bible dictionary definition of repentance, a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world. view about God, about oneself, and about the world. And it doesn't have to sound like a scolding type thing as much as a, I love what you said, Casey, how am I doing? It sounds like that. I want to see what my standing is before the Lord. Am I doing okay? I could use some encouragement here. You know, how am I doing? And the Lord always seems to be so encouraging too, thankfully. And I think maybe we can clean from that too. And I wanted to ask, and this is something that in Matthew 16, you know, whom do men say that I am? And when Peter gives his awesome answer,

Jesus says, thou art Peter. Well, I noticed in section 3, there was a Thou art Joseph. And I mean, the Lord, they know that the Lord knows their names. Is there more going on here? Here we are in section 14, verse 11, and behold, Thou art David. Right after saying, I am Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, verse 9, verse 10, kind of, then God, verse 9, verse 10, kind of then, thou art David. Any comment on that similarity we see at pattern? I mean, in all these revelations, he identifies them by name. For instance, section 15, first verse, my servant John, section 16, first verse, my servant, peer. It was important that they were called by name and that they were recognized and known of God. Sometimes that was what a revelation did and almost nothing else was just say, I know you know who you are. I know who you are. I know what your struggles are.

And I want to help you reach your potential, which again, a really short revelation like section 15 or section 16, even that could be a really powerful message to help somebody join in the work and get on the path they need to get into. John, I like what you said. The Lord is always very encouraging, isn't he? He's, he's, it's okay. It's okay. I'm going to help you. I like what Casey said there. I'm going to help you reach your your potential That seems to be the message of a lot of these opening sections of the doctrine covenant is I know you and I want to help you and even their first names You know, you know Peter was just Simon Peter, but Well Simon Bartjone or whatever in Matthew 16 but here they're there for your David your Peter I

I like that and I also I draw a lot of hope from Jesus is parable of the Pharisee in the public and that the Pharisee is outlining all of these ways that he's so righteous Kind of telling God how righteous he is and the public and just says God be merciful to me a sinner telling God how righteous he is, and the public and just says, God be merciful to me a sinner. Smote upon, I wouldn't even look up. And for Jesus to say that man went home justified and not the other, gives me a lot of hope about just getting on your knees and how am I doing?

And I'm sorry I mess up and how encouraging the Lord is it kind of as I, I like Marona, it's hot today. Yeah, I have noticed in the New Testament in my studies that a lot of the parables, a lot of the sermons are just different ways to repent, different angles to view repentance. It's just over and over. The Lord's messages are repent.

I'm gonna share a quick story. John Huntsman's senior told this story about his friend Howard W. Hunter, where his friend as president of the church, how would you like to be best friends with the president of the church, right? He invited him, he said, can you come over to my house and give me a blessing? And when he got there, I'll make the story quick. When he got there, he said, are you sick? And he said, no, I'm not sick. I just feel like I need a blessing. And John Huntsman senior said, are you sick? And he said, no, I'm not sick. I just feel like I need a blessing. And John Huntsman, senior said, well, are you okay?

Well, like, what's the problem if you're not sick? And he said, he said, today I had an unkind thought. And I just need a blessing. And I was, I went, I read that story. I thought, you know, I'm going to be blessings I'd need today? So there's always something to repent for. There's always something you could find. Oh my goodness. Wow.

Well, I love this thou art David. And the council that he gets to do everything we've talked about. And I'm glad that you told that story about Marona, because I found that in my own reading, that Marona during the three witnesses type event, turned to him and said, endure to the end, wow. What maybe it might be helpful to define what is endure to the end of mean.

I mean, I heard Sherry do once say that those endure to the end talks depressed the I mean, I heard Sherry do once say that those endure to the end talks, depressed the dickens out of me, right? If we look at it as like this, I just got hold on to the end. What do you think endure to the end means? Well, I'm glad that it doesn't mean just this life. You know, I used to, when I was a young teacher, go through a just pronounced verdict on people in church history. So it would be like, here's section 14,

and David Whitmer was a good guy, but he died outside the church. So that's it for him. As I've gotten a little bit older, my perspective on that has changed to where I'm giving everybody the benefit of the doubt. You know, David did die outside the church, so did most of the Whitmer clan, but they also stay true to their witness and their testimony. And that is really significant. They had every reason

to deny it and they didn't. And so in that sense, they endured to the end. I mean, if you go to Richmond, Missouri today and you find David Whitmer's headstone, which isn't difficult, chiseled into his headstone. It says, the record of the Jews and the record of the fights are one truth is eternal. I mean, this is a guy who's serious about his witness of what he saw. He did have conflicts with church leaders,

especially Sydney, Rigdon and Joseph Smith, but as a witness, which was what he's called to do in section 14, he is 100% faithful and endorsed the end. And I'd like to think that in the next life, there was a reconciliation between the two and that the whipmers are eventually gonna receive all the blessings of the gospel. So, enduring to the end to me isn't just this life. It's eternal life, which the Lord promises to

David Whitmer right here. That's one of the earliest uses of that term. I think of in the canon, when the Lord says, if you do this, you'll have eternal life. And like I said, I've gone from saying this person apostatized so they're done to having more of an open mind to say, well, they stayed faithful to their testimony. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. And we'll see what happens with them. That's beautiful. I love that. One of the commentaries I've reading, I have a Joseph Filding Maconkey and Craig Ossler commentary, I have a Steve Robinson and Dean Garrett commentary and he says, in here, this doesn't mean perfect or sinless, but it means you stay loyal to Christ.

And I kind of liked that. And like you said, Casey, that can be not just in this life, but you're loyal to Christ, loyal to the witness too. So, Casey, we know that a lot of the translation took place then in harmony, and I love how you've helped us with that. But what do we know about the actual process? There's been a lot of discussion lately about it. What are some things to hang our hat on? This much we know. Well, the Whitmer's like I said are invaluable when it comes to a source of how translation work, the actual mechanics. I think Garrett Durkmont was with you guys

a little while ago and he talked about sources. A good historian would always say, let's look at primary sources first and then secondary sources. So when it comes to translation, the two people that we most want to talk to were Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. And unfortunately, there's frustratingly little material from the two of them. They both die really young. Joseph in 1844, Oliver dies a few years later in 1850.

And they don't leave behind a whole bunch of sources about how it works. But they're the two that are there the entire time. Emma is involved, Martin Harris is involved, and according to the manuscripts of the Book of Mormon that we have, John Whitmer is also a scribe. Emma said that her brother was a scribe as well. And so we go to them to kind of look at them. Now, Joseph and Oliver both leave behind narratives

where they talk about the plates and also where they talk about the Yurman Thumam and Nephite interpreters. And the last couple of years, there's been a lot of attention given to the Seer Stone, which the Wipmers talk about and the church published Pictures of in 2015 as part of the Joseph Smith papers project.

So I'll just phrase it this way. Joseph and Oliver tend to use the phrase Yermen Thummum to describe the instruments that they use. And both of them also tend to say the Nephite interpreters when they describe it. Like in 1842, Joseph Smith writes the Wentworth letter. This is what he writes. He goes, it great lengths to describe the plates. And then he says, with the records, was found a curious instrument, which the ancients called Yermenthumum, which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow, fastened to a breastplate.

Then he says, through the medium of the Yermenthum, I translated the record by the gift and power of God. And that's about as detailed as Joseph Smith gets about the translation process, was that I used the Yermenthumum, this is what it is, I translated it by the gift and power of God. Now Oliver Cowdry writes several letters on translation, and when he comes back into the church in 1848, he does bear his testimony. So apparently there at Winterquarters and Orson Hyde, the apostle who's presiding there,

sees Oliver Cowdry, brings him up to the stand, asks him to bear his testimony, and a guy named Ruben Miller writes this down. So, we're talking to a primary source participant, but recorded through a secondary participant, Ruben Miller, is writing down what he hears Oliver Cowdry say. Oliver Cowdry, according to Ruben Miller, in that occasion, said, I wrote with my own pen, the entire book of Mormon saved a few pages as a fell from the lips of the prophet Joseph Smith, as he translated by the gift and power of God by the means of the Euroman thumb, or as it is called by

that book, Holy Interpreters. I beheld with my eyes and handled with my hands the gold plates from which it is translated. I also beheld the interpreters. That book is true. So that's Joseph and Oliver. Holy interpreters, they tend to describe them as the yearmen thumb and the whipmers tend to describe the use of a seer stone. So does Emma, so does Martin Harris. So you got to reconcile those things and one of the major things that we've shifted towards

saying is that Joseph used multiple instruments when he translated the Book of Mormon. He used the Nephide interpreters, but he also used the seer stone that the Whitmer's describe using. For instance, David Whitmer, when he describes translation, says it this way, and this is the popular image that's out there now. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat. He put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light, and then the darkness of spiritual light would shine. drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light and then the darkness of spiritual light would shine. Something resembling a parchment would appear and on that appeared the writing one character to time would appear and under it was written the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery who was the principal scribe and when it was written

down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct then it would disappear and another character with the interpretation would appear. That is a divine translation process. And a lot of people like David Whitmer's description, because it's describing a very tight translation process, that what you're seeing in the book of Mormon is exactly what the Lord wanted Joseph and Oliver to write down. People have varied back and forth between saying, well, maybe the impressions came to Joseph and he chose the words, David Whitmer makes it sound like the words were exactly given to him. And that's a big deal because when you think about all the meaning that comes from a word like infinite, infinite appears in 2nd Nephi 9 and Alma 34, if that's the exact word the Lord wants Joseph Smith to use in the English language. That means infinite is exactly what it's supposed to mean there. And that's very, very important for us, that the wording in the Book of Mormon, at least in English, is a big deal. And we ought to pay

close attention to it and what it means. So we have Joseph Oliver David. Did anybody else So we have Joseph Oliver David. Did anybody else record Martin Harris? Martin Harris describes it Emma Smith describes translation They did it they've described it similarly to David's yeah, they did they didn't yeah so so basically what what happened was is the reason why the Sears Stone makes some people a little bit queasy is because when we put together our narration of translation, our narrative, we relied on Joseph and Oliver. We didn't rely on people like David Whitmer or Martin Harris or even Emma Smith because they didn't end up in the church. But a century later, historians started to circle back and say, look, David and Emma and Martin weren't trying to convince people there wasn't true. They were trying to say it was miraculous.

So whether it's the Nephide interpreters of the seer stone, I would tell people, don't miss the forest for the trees. The main message that every single one of these people was trying to convey was that this was not a normal translation process, that it was miraculous, that it wasn't Joseph learning in ancient language and using his intellect that it was a miracle that occurred. In fact, let me share something that's really fast. I do interfaith work with community of Christ, and they hold a lot of the papers, the Belong to the Smith family, especially Emma Smith. Well, one day I was working in their archives, and their archivist, Rachel Killabrurew pulled out this set of papers that were Joseph Smith III's last interview with Emma Smith.

They were the actual the actual paper. Yeah, I could send you guys this like she let me take photographs. It's Joseph III's notes in pencil on this scratch paper as he's asking his mom questions. She asked him who were the scribes? She lists off the scribes. Joseph Oliver, Al the Hill, she mentions the whimmers. Did Sydney Rigden write the book? She goes,

Sydney Rigden never showed up to our house until a year after Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon was written. I never saw him, I never met him. And then at the end, he sits down with her and says, just tell me, do you think that dad could have made this up? This is exactly what he writes on the page in his notes. That Emma said, my belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity.

I have not the slightest doubt of it. I'm satisfied that no man could have dictated the writings of the manuscript unless he was inspired for when acting as a scribe your father would dictate to me hour after hour. And when returning after meals or after interruptions, he could at once begin where he left off, without either seeing the manuscript having any portion of read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this for one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible. So, I would say to people out there that are getting

a little uncomfortable over the seer stone or the Euroman thumbam or the Nephite interpreters, the overarching message of the whippers of Emma Smith of everybody involved in this process was it was a miracle. There's no way as they saw that Joseph Smith could have faked to this, that Emma, who's the first scribe of the book of Mormon who records a lot of the lost manuscript, just saw it as something that was impossible for him to pull off. And that is the consistent message they're trying to come across.

So worry less about what instrument Joseph Smith used and focus more on what they're actually trying to say, which is this was a miracle. I really like what you're saying here. As a historian, I'm hearing as a historian, it's impossible to know exactly what happened because they describe it differently. They, and that's normal, right?

For everyone to have an experience and describe it differently. And so you're saying, okay, he described it this way, he described it this way, she described it this way. We kind of triangulate all those. We have a decent picture of what it looked like, and it's a miracle. Yeah. And that is the one consistent message that comes through everything.

As people see different things, but at the end, everybody was urgently trying to say, this was something I can't explain through natural means. Now, on the one hand, a testimony of the Book of Mormon comes through the Spirit, absolutely. But it's also nice to know as an empiricist, you know, as a historian, that there are people that saw the plates, that witnessed translation,

and that even though, like we've mentioned earlier, had no stake in the success of the church, especially after they left it, upheld it as a true experience that they had. I mean, the whipmers will always be incredibly valuable for that. I've talked to anti-mormons that hate the church. One guy said, you know, the thing that keeps me awake at night, though, is the witnesses. Like, that's really hard to explain away what their motive was and why they were so consistent in what they said. So it's a spiritual proof and spiritual witnesses are where we go to first, but it always is nice to have empirical evidence as well. And the whippers really come through big time for us when it comes

to empirical evidence that there were plates, that there was miraculous translation, and that there were plates that there was a miraculous translation and that there was an angel involved in the process. Oh, this just, I love, I absolutely love this discussion. I just think of the Whitmer's, you know, seeing this and the, I don't know, the shock, the awesomeness of the whole thing, just watching this happen. And it's in your house. These are biblical miracles, type miracles, and they're happening in your house. I just would be, it would be astounding. You, of course, you'd never forget it. I mean, something as mundane as a road trip

between harmony and faith, there's an angel. The experience with the three witnesses, which is described in section 17 of the doctrine of evidence, happens somewhere near the Whitmer farm. And then according to Mary Whitmer, Maroni appears on the back door of the Whitmer home to speak to her specifically. Yeah, and I am really grateful for this part of the discussion. As we have begun these podcasts, I've received communications from people who are queasy about it. And I just love the way that you characterized. Okay. So

maybe the Whitmer's had a different, different in the details and especially the Syrston and things like that. But overarching was they were talking about this record is true. I think that's a think that's a really good place to go because I have people that I respect who are, you know, say, well the Whitmers were not reliable witnesses because they later left the church or whatever. And so I really like what you've done there. That's a much better way to, to say, look at the, look at the final fruit of it. They were trying to defend, no, this book was miraculously given. So thank you for that. In fact, let me, let me show you something. One story that's told about David Whitmer is that

during his lifetime, and in Cyclopedia was published, and in it, in the entry on the book of Mormon, they recorded that the three witnesses had later denied their testimony. Now David Whitmer writes, this is the year before he dies, a letter to the publishers, and then a public letter. This is the public letter.

He says, it is recorded in the American Cyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica that I, David Whitmer, have denied my testimony as one of the three witnesses to the divinity of the Book of Mormon, and that the other two witnesses Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris denied their testimony of that book, I will say once more to all mankind that I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof.

I also testified to the world that neither Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris ever denied their testimony. They both died, reaffirming the truth of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I was present at the deadbed of Oliver Cowdery, he writes, and his last words were, Brother David be true to your testimony of the Book of Mormon. Please join us for part two of this podcast.