Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Easter : Dr. John Hilton III Part I

Episode Date: March 28, 2021

Do you tend to jump right past the cross when studying Holy Week? Dr. John Hilton III shares why looking at the entirety of Jesus’s last week, including his suffering on the cross, will deepen our understanding and appreciation. This episode will exceed your expectations. Join us!Shownotes: www.followhim.coInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith, and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh, we want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. My friends welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith, I'm here with my incredible co-host, John, by the way. Welcome, John.

You're talking about me? Oh, that's good. Yes. That's very kind. Thank you. John, can you introduce our friend? Yes. We have John Hilton, the third with us.

And Hank, we've known John for years. I think you may have known him longer than I have. I'm going to just pop in. So I think you may have known him longer than I have. I'm gonna just pop in. So I think I actually have technically known you longer because when I was a BYU student, I came knocking on your office door BYU saying, do you have any tips for how I could write a book

or speaking of why I'm sure you had hundreds of people like me. But you treated me so kindly, you were so nice and polite. Yeah. So just throwing that out there John. I've been Grateful for you for decades. Oh yours. I you are you're so nice. I'm glad that that you remember me being a nice guy Yeah, I was gonna say when I did that in college John said get out of here. Why? Why do you kids keep bothering me? Why do you, why do you, why do you kids keep bothering me? Wait, that's great. John Hilton III was born in San Francisco and grew up in Seattle. He served a mission in Denver and received a bachelor's degree from Brigham Young University

where he met his wife Lonnie and they have six children. Now this is the fun part. They have lived in Boise, Boston, Mexico, Miami, China, and Jerusalem. John has a master's degree from Harvard and a PhD from BYU, both in education. He is currently a religion professor at BYU. John has written several books, including The Founder of Our Peace and Considering the Cross. And I think those two are the most recent, considering the cross just came out. John's biggest claim to fame was in high school. He wanted pizza eating contest, but eating 22 pieces of pizza.

I mean, if you didn't feel like there's credibility here, I hope that sealed it. That in full disclosure, they were smallish pizza pieces of pizza, but still it's something to be proud of. And John, you mentioned Jerusalem. That is an experience to sit there and to sing. There is a Green Hill far away and to look out the window and say, there's not that far away. It's right there. Yeah. It's just amazing. It's hard to get through the words when you're right there looking over old Jerusalem. And you

got to experience that for a year. Yeah, it was beautiful. Wonderful. It's fantastic. Now before we go any further, I have to tell a couple of stories. And this is, these are just important stories. That's so unlike you, Hank. There is no one as brilliant as John Hilton. He's so great, they made three of him. His actual name is John Hilton III. I've known John for, it's probably been 15 years. We went to a subway to get lunch

and no one on the other side of the counter spoke English. And I'm trying to order, and all of a sudden my friend John Hilton started speaking Spanish to these workers. And I said, well, how come you speak Spanish? You didn't service Spanish speaking mission. And it was like it was a revelation to him. He was like, I know. And I said, well, how come you know Spanish? And he said, I wanted to learn Spanish. so I learned it. It was probably within that year sometime, I hear him, I overhear him speaking Chinese with somebody,

and I said, wait, what? You speak Chinese? And he said, yeah, I wanted to speak Chinese, so I learned Chinese. And I, you know, sometimes someone might say, well, you know, intelligent people don't believe in God, intelligent people don't whatever, fill in the blank, they don't do the whole faith religion thing.

Find me, find me someone as intelligent as John Hilton III and we can have that discussion because he is not only intelligent, he is kind, he is everything and his wife, Lonnie is even better. So John, do I feel like I did that justice? Did I over? You know, one thing that you left off, Hank, is that as we walked out of that subway,

there was someone who was asking for money and you gave them some money and treated them kindly. And that's something I always remember. Like that's something about your character. Some people work on learning languages and other people just be developed Christlike attributes. So, you know, a little something for everyone. Yeah, I was just looking for ways to look good. I actually planted that guy outside.

I'm like, you stay here. John, let's talk. This week's lessons a little bit different for come follow me. We're going to step away from the doctor doctrine and covenants for a little bit and talk about Easter, talk about the atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ. John, you just wrote a book on this. This is why I, in fact, this is why I invited you on the on the podcast today. You just wrote a book on this called, considering the cross. How Calvary connects us with Christ. Maybe let's just start there, John, and see where we go.

Tell me what, I know this book was a couple of years for you, just thinking about it and then doing the research. Tell me what spurred you on to this and what you learned. So when I was in the Jerusalem center, I was one day talking with one of my colleagues, you know, this is kind of like BYU religion professor, fun talk, where we're like, so what do you do when you teach the Atonement of Jesus Christ? How do you teach that? And as we were discussing this, one of my colleagues said, why do you think in the church we always focus almost exclusively on

Gesemini as the place where Christ atone for our sins. And I was just thought, well, I don't know, because that's what the scriptures say, probably. And I realized in that moment that whenever I taught a lesson, like, you know, so this week we're probably all studying maybe different episodes in the life of Christ in this last week. We're probably focusing on the last supper, Gesemony. And I realized that when I did these kinds of things, I tended to jump straight past the crucifixion and go to the resurrection. And I came across a quote from President James E. Fals,

he said, any increase in our understanding of the Savior's atoning sacrifice draws us closer to him. And that really stood out to me. Any increase in any aspect of Christ's atonement is going to pull us closer to Him. And that really stood out to meet any increase in any aspect of Christ's atonement is going to pull us closer to Him. And I realized that so to speak, there was some low-hanging fruit with respect to Calvary and the crucifixion. This was just an area of Christ's atonement that I had kind of glided by. And as I started to investigate, I found that there

are scriptures that talk about Jesus Christ suffering for our sins in Gisemony. There's one in the Book of Mormon and one in the Doctrine and Covenants. So two total. There's at the same time more than 50 passages of Scripture that talk about Jesus Christ dying for our sins. And that's when we've seen them over and over again just this year the Doctrine and Covenants. It's in section 18, it's in Section 21. We'll see it in a week or so in Section 35. It's just over and over again. Jesus Christ emphasizes I was crucified for the sins of the world.

And so when I realized that, I thought, wow, there's kind of a mismatch between what I've been focused on and what the scriptures are teaching. And so Anthony Sweat, who you know and has been on the podcast, he and I did a survey of some students at BYU. And we asked about 800 students, although Christ Atonement was a process, where would you say Jesus mostly atone for our sins? And the first round we gave students two choices,

either a gasemony or calvary, and 88% of students either gasemony or calvary, and 88% of students selected gasemony. So someone said, hey, that's kind of unfair. You should have given them a third choice of equally in gasemony and calvary. So we surveyed a separate group of about 800 students, and same question. Although Christotom was a process, where would you say he mostly atone for our sins? Gasemony, calvary, or equally in Gasemini and Calvary.

And even with the choice of equally in Gasemini and Calvary, 58% of people said Gasemini only. So this was a signal to me that I'm not the only person who's tended to focus almost exclusively or maybe primarily on Gesemony. But as I as I dive into, you know, we're so focused on Joseph Smith this year with our come follow me. Joseph Smith actually in his writings and sermons, he never talks about Jesus Christ, suffering for our sins in Gesemony. He only mentions Gesemony one time and that's in the context of Christ doing the will of His Father. But there's more than 30 times when He talks about Christ being crucified and several of those are specifically about Him dying for our sins. I think in my experience as a teacher and maybe you'd say the same thing, John, by the

way, maybe you'd say this as well, is that during the course of a class on the Savior's life, I am building and building and building to this moment, right? I'm building to this atonement moment. And for me personally, I just kind of realize this as you've been talking, I will hit that moment in Gethsemane. And I will talk about Calvary, but it's on the downhill side. It's on the, we've hit our moment, and now we're going, you know, we're hitting

maybe, you know, post-polymactic moment. And I think I do teach the, the, the Calvary, but it's on that, I don't know, that other side of, of, okay, we've already hit our big moment. Would you say that, that other teachers do that? Or is it just me? This podcast is ended up being all the things Hank does wrong podcast. But do you feel like you used to do that as well maybe? I think what John said is right. There's when we learn the meaning of Gethsemane, that's all of press.

And we, as John said, okay, we've got it in Luke that he bled at every poor. And that's it, right? And then in Restoration Scripture, we have it in King Benjamin, in Mosiah 3, and Dr. and a Covenant section 19. And so maybe because of that, we feel some, oh, look what we have in Restoration Scripture, that's only mentioned once in the book of Luke is that he bled from every poor. And I love what you're doing, John, with suffering for our sins, dying for our sins.

And yet, we separate those too much because it was all part of the same process. Is that fair? Yeah. And you just mentioned separating it out. I think that's maybe a common misunderstanding. People will say, well, Jesus suffered for our sins in gasemonee, so he overcame spiritual death and gasemonee and then overcame physical death

on the cross. And elder Gerald Dunn calls that a doctrinal error. To try to separate it out like that just doesn't act. Yeah, it was all the atonement. Can we say that? The atonement didn't happen here or there, but it was all, I mean, I'm in my mind remembering, and you've done so much research on this.

I think it was Elder Bruce Rammer-Konky saying the horrors of Gethsemane returned on the cross is that accurate? Yeah, so Elder Mekonky did say that. And even more recently, President Nelson, he describes all of the things Christ experienced in Gethsemane. And then he said that all this suffering was intensified as Christ was cruelly crucified on Calvary's cross. That's an important, that's an important, yeah, quote, there, John, I had not, I had not heard that. So to go back to what you were

saying, so I do this, like, and this is what I recognize. This was kind of like the turning point for me, it was to say, I am, I'm building up and guess how many is the climax first. Yeah. Like without doubt, that's, yeah. I go back and look at my power points from like five years ago and I was teaching and that was for sure of the case. And I'm sure that you and I and John were not alone.

And I don't want to say to any teacher listening, you did it wrong. Let's just say, hey, let's improve. Yeah, let's improve. That's a great method at the time, but let's improve. Let's adjust. And to be clear, it's not saying that guess somebody isn't important. Gasemini is supremely important.

It's just there's maybe another aspect of the Savior's Atonement that we haven't fully appreciated or studied. So, John, you've talked a lot just with me personally about the cross itself. That somehow, maybe there's a tie in, maybe there's not, you can correct me, that we don't focus on Calvary as a doctrine because we don't focus on the cross as a symbol. Maybe we shy away from the doctrine of what happens on the cross because of the fact that we, as a letter of A. Saints, have shied away from the cross as a symbol. Tell me about what you've found there. So to me, it makes me think of a parable from Elder Packer where he talks about how a merchant found a precious pearl. And it was so amazing.

He wanted everyone to see it. So he made this great box to showcase the pearl. And when everyone came to watch it, he was so sad because they focused on the box instead of the pearl. And in a way, I think you can say that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the pearl. And the cross as a symbol is a box. And maybe some people adore and worship the cross as a symbol is a box. And maybe some people adore and worship the cross as a symbol, and that's not good. And maybe some of us have like completely shied

away from the image of the cross and said, Oh, that's bad. I don't want any part of that. And as a result, we don't look at the pearl, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. So, I mean, just a quick backstory that to be honest with you, I didn't know a couple of years ago, is that in the 1820s, as the restoration is taking shape, Catholicism is not a prevalent religion in the United States. In fact, in the Palmyra area, there's no Catholic churches. Joseph, the Joseph's mystery, he says, the Methodist, the Presbyterian's, he never says, what about the Catholics? It's just not on his radar.

It's not part of the cultural context. What I didn't know is that in the 1820s, the cross was primarily a Catholic symbol, Protestant churches like Baptist Presbyterians, Methods. They didn't use the cross as a symbol, and that was going back to the Protestant Catholics split off a couple hundred years earlier. So, they don't want to be seen as Catholics, so they're not using the cross. Correct. So is Joseph Smith is kind of making decisions about building church buildings, and would you put a cross on it? It wasn't really a, that would be a Catholic thing.

It wasn't a Christian thing. And so that was an interesting data point for me was to see that there's a culture that our church is growing out of, right? American Protestantism is sort of the cultural myeloo that Joseph Smith is surrounded with and that doesn't have the image of a cross. But there's massive Catholic immigration to America and the 1840s through 60s. And that leads to Christians broadly in America adopting the cross as a symbol of their faith. So by the 1870s, you have well-documented statements saying something like, the cross is no longer

denominational. It's a Christian symbol. And even amongst Latter-day Saints, during the late 1800s and early 1900s, there are times that the cross appears. It appears in some church buildings, not frequently, but occasionally there's in Alice in Latter, in the latter, correct, in later day, same church buildings. Um, oh, just I want to make sure I saw this illustration in your book on the spine of a European printed doctrine and covenants and what was there on the spine. Yeah, there's it. So on the 1852 doctrine and coankam, there's crosses on the spine. And yeah, there's other examples. BH Roberts of the 70 as a cross on his tombstone,

several Latter-day Saints, both men and women, pose for formal photographs, wearing crosses or cross earrings. And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that we need to all go out and buy cross necklaces or anything. It's just interesting to see historically,

there wasn't a stigma with it. In the 1950s, through the 70s, there's a couple of statements from church leaders that suggest that it would be in poor taste for members to wear a cross. No one ever forbids it. It's never forbidden. There's no commandment saying don't do it, but I think that's where we really get this cultural aversion to the cross and of course in 1975 President Hinckley tells the story where he's taking a Protestant minister through the Mesa Arizona Temple and The minister says well if you're a Christian church, how come I don't see a cross in this temple and President Hinckley says well for us the cross is a symbol of the dying Lord and we worship the living Christ.

And so I think those kind of things would be what maybe some listeners are thinking about right now. Is it, well, yeah, of course we don't use the cross and maybe the crucifixion isn't as important because we worship the living Christ. I think where you're going, this is an important discussion because it affects the doctrine, which is what's most

important. What are we, what are we understanding about the Savior and the Atonement and let's not have this, the symbol and cultural changes with the symbol, change our doctrine and to shy away from the crucifixion. Am I reading it right? Exactly. So you can wear a cross, you cannot wear a cross, you can love it, not like it, great. But let's not let that distract us. In fact, in the same talk from President Hinckley that we were just referring to, he says we must never forget the price

Christ paid on Calvary. And so that's so important. I just earlier this week was teaching my class and I was in 3rd Nephi 27 and I thought, oh, John will love this. I'm sure you know which one I'm talking about. But you know, this is that chapter where the disciples are meeting and what should we call the church? And Jesus appears and how be it my church say it be called in my name,

but listen to verse 13 and 14, behold, I have given unto you my gospel. And this is my gospel, which I have given unto you, that I came into the world to do the will of my father because my father sent me and my father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross and that after I had been lifted up upon the cross that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men, even so should men be lifted up by the Father to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. And I could go on, but I thought, look at that.

John, I'm sure loves this verse and kind of look, here's the savior himself saying this is important. And just with that, you know, as I initially was kind of finding this out and I would kind of share in small groups and kind of test out the ideas I was working on, someone said, well maybe the reason why people focus on the cross is that it was a, when they say people like Christians generally, focus on the cross because it was a public experience that guess so many was more of a private experience so fewer people know about it. And so I thought, oh, okay, but then I thought, well, actually, Jesus Christ describes his experience in guess so many one time in Dr. N. Covenant's 19, but on more than 20 occasions in Scripture, he talks about his death

Just like the verse that you just read and so if anyone knows a lot about both Gassemony and Calvary It's the Savior and he himself is personally Infocizing over and over again that he was crucified for our sins that being lifted up on the cross Draws us to him. There are so many, and I'm all of a sudden all these references are coming to mind like, I think in Nephai's vision, he said, I saw him lifted up on the cross. He says, nothing about, guess how many? Not that it's not important again, but he talks about the cross when the Savior talks to Nicodemus. He says, the serpent, Moses' serpent in the wilderness story and says he'll be lifted up.

I wonder if, you know, as we sometimes want to differentiate ourselves from mainstream Christianity, that we kind of said, well, they have the cross, that's theirs. We'll take guess-semini, that's that's going to be ours, right? That's how we're gonna be different. And maybe that was important in the 1960s or 70s that might have been needed at some time, but that's not what I hear our church leaders saying today. I don't hear an us versus them mentality. It's let's have all good people unite.

And maybe on that, I mean, like if we could just could take a missionary moment, when I, and I'd love to hear your guys' experiences, when I was a full-time missionary in Colorado, if I saw someone wearing a cross, it was kind of like, oh, you know, that's like, other, they're different. Whereas now, if I was a missionary,

and I saw someone wearing a cross, I'd be so excited, I'd go up to them, hey, I see that you believe in Jesus. This is incredible. I've got this book here, and Jesus himself says, my father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross. Let's talk about our mutual feelings of excitement about the Savior's sacrifice on Calvary.

Right. Someone is publicly declaring themselves to be a Christian and we're like, oh no, how weird. Where now we'd be more, you're right John, I'd be excited. I love to see the cross from our discussion and people are just getting your book, but I mean, I'd be excited. I love to see the cross from our discussion and People are just getting your book, but I mean, I've I've had these discussions with you for a long time now And I get more and more excited to see people With the symbol of the cross kind of announcing What who they believe in we will be having Dr. Robert Millett on the podcast at one point. I know he wrote a book called What Happened to the Cross and other doctrines about it. I think they chose that as a title.

And I was so intrigued because I thought I had never seen anybody saying don't use a cross, but I remember, oh, well, and kind of what would you say, common knowledge or conventional thinking, well, we are all about the living Christ and so forth. And I remembered something that Robert Millett had taught me. And that was that because he had done a lot of writing and thinking about the doctrine of grace. And he said at one time he asked his dad, well, don't we believe in grace? And his father said, no, because the baptists do. grace and his father said no because the Baptist do. And since that time, we've seen a lot of helpful discussion about what did Nephi mean, second Nephi, 25, 23, and brother Brad Wilcox's talk,

his grace is sufficient, all sorts of things to say, wait a minute, this has always been what's in the book Mormon. And I hope that we can, I like to tell my students, hey, we've only had this book for less than 200 years. We're still learning, you know, what's in our own revelation kind of. And do you think that we just mentioned that's kind of differentiating ourselves? But I'm right with you. I see somebody with a cross and I go, wow, they believe in Jesus. Isn't that great? And I mean, I think John, you shared with me earlier as well. Some experiences you've had listening to Christian talk radio. I don't know if you want to share anything about that.

Yeah, I have. And condemning those who are offended by the cross and put us in that group. Yeah, this is an area where we don't need to have, there's need to be any friction. We totally believe that Jesus Christ died first. And in fact, that verse that you quoted earlier, Hank, from 1st Nephi 11, Inefai saw that Christ was lifted up on the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

So there's no doubt that this is actually a bridge-building point for us and other Christians. John, maybe one reason, and I can see this in myself is that part of the Come Follow Me manual this week talks about Jesus Christ accomplished a perfect atonement. I have little ones, and maybe it's my aversion to violence that I can focus on, guess, Semi and maybe not on the cross. How do you as a father, how do you go about teaching the cross to your children without, I don't know, do you find it might be emotionally scarring like, all right, let's all sit down and watch the passion of the Christ together, right?

Like how do you teach it in a way that it's true to it but yet not too graphic, what's age appropriate. This is just one experience. When I was a young father, we had the gospel art kit and we'd kind of flip through the pages. And I would always flip past the crucifixion, you know, just jump from guess how many to the resurrection. And I remember my son saying, like, what's that? Like go back to that.

And he was really curious and interested in the crucifixion image. And I'm sad that I didn't take advantage of that opportunity to teach my son because there it was a teachable moment that I was more worried about than he was and I'm not saying that all crucifixion imagery is important or even appropriate for children of all ages. I do wonder if maybe there's sometimes that we We may be miss an opportunity to teach. To teach. Yeah, maybe so. Is that your son that's on a mission now? Yeah, exactly. Well, you did okay. You did, you did, you did, you did, you did, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you I remember President Iring one time saying something to the effect of we need to take advantage of opportunities to teach small children that they're their most teachable phase prior to eight years of age. And so in some ways what better time to help root in their hearts? The power of Christ's atoning sacrifice in Gesemini and on Calvary. And just recently a friend showed me something that her son,

who's five years old, had made, and it was a picture of the crucifixion, and she had her son had made Jesus smiling on the cross. And she said, oh, why is Jesus smiling? And her son said, because he's so happy to sacrifice for you and me. So I do think that at least some little children, and every parent's going to know their own child best Some little children it may be helpful

Definitely, maybe not watching the passion of the Christ but To you know to see some of these other images and to talk about it and to read some scriptures together I think could be a very spiritually powerful opportunity Also, I think something John that that parents could, and I forgot about this, is that you talk about the crucifixion symbolism in the gospel around us, right? In the gospel, our children are already experiencing. Tell us about the connections you've made there, with just the gospel that our children

are already experiencing. Well, I mean, one, for example, is the Ornance of Baptism. So in Romans chapter 6, Paul makes it very clear that baptism is a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So that's an opportunity to talk about the total commitment that Jesus Christ manifested to each of us. He was so all in he gave his life for us. Or the sacrament is another opportunity where Jesus said, or the sacrament is another opportunity where Jesus said, eat this bread in remembrance of the body, which I laid down for you.

We see that in our recent Come Follow Me and Doctrine and Covenants, section 27, and my blood which was shed for you. And in the scriptures, the phrase shedding of blood always refers to death. It's the death of an animal, or in this case the death of the Savior. One little nugget in 1 Corinthians chapter 11, Paul is talking about the crucifixion

and the sacrament, and he says that, is often as you take the sacrament, you show, and it's spelled SHEW. It's kind of a weird word you're written like, what does that word mean? Well, if you look up, it means to proclaim or testify of. So he says, as often as you take the sacrament, you are publicly testifying of the death of Christ. And I think that's another really just every, not every day, but every week opportunity to think about and commemorate the Savior's sacrifice.

I was telling my kids that I think of the sacrament table not only as kind of a reminder of the last supper where it was first kind of so it's like a table of communion of but also as an altar because we're remembering the body and the blood of Christ there. And I don't know if that had stand up to correlation but but I think of both of those, those ideas. Here's the priest breaking bread in front of us. And the fact that the, the way we do that is in the front of the room, every week for everyone to see while we sing a sacrament, him, that he was bruised and broken and torn for us on Calvary's Hill. I mean, that's, is that him 181? And why, why then?

Why while we're singing, I think that all means something to help us remember his death. And he, he died for us, but it's, I love that it's kind of both. It's the last supper and it's an altar. And I, like I said, I don't know if that's that would pass correlation, but it went well in our own little home evening lesson. John, with that thought that you just said about it's both, going back to the idea of, well, wait, don't we really just worship the living Christ? And I think that we, I don't think I know we 100% do worship the living Christ.

At the same time, we also worship the loving Christ. And Jesus Christ Himself personally defined His greatest act of love, as His crucifixion. He said, greater love has no one than this that a man lay down His life for His friends. That same idea is found in the book of Mormon as well. So to me, it's not in either or it's not, well, we either have the living Christ or the loving Christ. It's both. You can't have one without the other. This is wonderful. John, for us, we're those out there who really like just information. I want to learn. Did you, did you learn anything in your writing about the act of crucifixion itself that you didn't know before? I actually remember one day I was just eating lunch with some

colleagues and it just dawned on me that everything I knew about crucifixion came from movies, primarily the Lamb of God and the Testaments, because those were some of the only movies that I had seen that had crucifixion imagery in it. And I thought, I'm pretty sure that there's a whole science around this in their have. I mean, thousands of pages have been written about what we know from archaeology. One or two kind of little interesting details is I've always kind of seen this image and probably a lot of you have seen it as well where Jesus is nailed to the cross and the thieves on either side are tied to the cross. And I've had people ask, well, why were the thieves tied, but Jesus was nailed? And of course, that picture is just based

on the artist's imagination. In reality, both nails and ropes were used in crucifixions. So it could have been either or we know that in the Savior's case, he was nailed to the cross because of the prince and his hands and his feet. Another interesting detail is that the best evidence suggests that crosses were much smaller than we sometimes think of occasionally in a movie you'll see like a pulley system and they're like hoisting up the cross really high. But oftentimes it appears that the cross was maybe only a foot, maybe two feet taller than the person who's being

crucified, which has a different effect if you think about your eye level with the crucifixion. And so when you're there at the cross and Jesus says these powerful seven final statements, it's not that he's distant and far away. If you're near the cross, you're almost at eye level with him. near the cross, you're almost at eye level with him. Wow. Did this happen often, John, did the Romans invent crucifixion? Is this something that I should even ask? No, it's a great question. So the historical origins of crucifixion

are a little bit murky. It clearly the Romans perfect the practice. The Greeks and maybe the Persians before them have some type of crucifixion. And even kingdoms before that are impaling people. So something that's similar to a crucifixion has been happening for centuries before. But clearly the Romans, the way that we think

of crucifixion perfect the practice if we could use that terrible term. But yeah, and a lot of times I think people don't want, I'm kind of shying away from this topic because I think probably a lot of listeners are about, well, let's turn this off right now, okay? It's a little, let's move on. It's just a little much. But you know, we hope that Jesus Christ understands our pain, don't we?

We talk about, well, the Savior understands our pain. We're never going to understand the pain He experienced in attaining for our sins, but we can understand a little bit about the physical realities of crucifixion. So maybe since we want him to understand our pain, it might not be too much for us to understand his pain. Oh, John, I've never thought of that, and I love you for that. You ever had moments, John, by the way, where you think, I'm never gonna forget that. Yeah, I want him to understand my pain. Why don't I try to understand his best I can, right?

As best I can. Like you said before, Hank, there's an aversion to violence. It's hard to tell your little tender hearts and minds in your children. This is what they did to people because it's why would you do that to someone? And so I can understand that. And on the other hand, I'd like the way you put that, John, that we need to understand what he went through as an expression of love and patience with us. And you know, we're talking from maybe our perspectives

and I don't know all the intimate details of your lives and your children's lives, but my guess is all of us are relatively sheltered. However, some people have experienced terrible tragedies in their life, victims of horrific abuse. Dark, dark, terrible things. Yeah.

And I remember reading the account of one woman who had to, like, she had experienced horrible betrayal. And she felt alone, abandoned therapy, didn't help. And she said that in one moment of her darkest hours, she saw Christ on the cross in her mind, but it wasn't the Sunday school image, it wasn't Jesus with a bit of blood. It was the real deal that she saw, like the truly anguished suffering Christ, and that's when she realized this Jesus understands me. So maybe for some of us, the scarred up Jesus, it is a

terrible image and we can't look at it, but there might be some people for whom it's an image of comfort and solidarity and says, okay, this person really understands me. I know you both have read Cory Ten Boom's book, The Hiding Place. One of the sad things that she describes, well, she's in the Nazi prison camp, is how the prisoners are forced to strip down every week in the guards and expect them, and it's humiliating. And then all of a sudden, she has a realization that Jesus was probably naked when he was on the cross. We don't depict that in artwork, but that was, seems to be most likely the custom of what happened at the time. And all of a sudden she didn't feel

ashamed anymore. And again, that's an image that we don't really want to talk about and dwell on. But for someone who's in a very difficult, dark place, that moment was powerful for her. And so I think that, yes, we want to be cautious and careful, but there may be some for whom the full understanding of what Christ experienced could actually be healing. Well, and I think of the phrase that I think is in your book as well is that he descended below all things. And this helps us to know that no matter what we've been through, he is descended below all things. And it's hard to talk about. But as you said, yeah, somebody can say he will know what I've how I felt. You know, all of this has made me think of this quote from Joseph Smith that I've always loved. Listen to this, he will know what I've, how I felt. You know, all of this has made me think of this quote from Joseph Smith that I have always loved.

Listen to this, he says, the things of God are of deep import and time and experience and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, oh man, if thou will lead a soul on two salvation. That's what we all want to do here. We thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation. That's what we all want to do here. We want to lead souls unto salvation.

Must stretch as high as the utmost heavens. And then this part, John, from what you've talked about about. This is difficult to discuss. It's difficult to go and look at this. But he says, and you must search into and contemplate the darkest abyss. You must search into and contemplate the darkest abyss and the broad expanse of eternity. That'll must commune with God," he says. And to me, as you were talking about, this is a difficult thing to go into, but there are people who experience these dark abyss type things in life. And the Savior's there.

You, you, he is there with them. So I think, wow, what you've given me insight after insight after insight here. Is there anything else on the crucifixion, John, before we, I, we want to talk about the resurrection of Christ, of course, because that's our Easter message. But is there anything else that you feel like our listeners could benefit from talking about the crucifixion? For me, one of the, the Alessandro characters, this barabas, who it's kind of the choices between Jesus and Barabas. And I'm kind of here thinking like, well, duh, it's obvious to use Jesus, right? Like this is a no-brainer. But if we maybe go back and think about historical context, many of the Jewish people don't like the Roman authorities. They want an insurrection,

they want a rebellion, and that's actually why Barabbas has been arrested. He's a revolutionary, right? He's a rebel against Rome. And so maybe some of the people in the crowd are thinking to themselves, hmm, Jesus seems like a nice guy, but what's he really doing to overthrow Rome? Barabbas, like this guy's on the front lines, like maybe we should get him out of there, and it'll help us. And I think that for me in my life, I can kind of liken this to,

am I seeking for spiritual salvation or a temporal salvation? Maybe in some ways in my life, I have a choice between Jesus and Barabbas, a choice between a world, a spiritual approach with Jesus and a world, the approach with Pilate. And sometimes my tendency is to just go with, okay, well, great, this is what the world is saying versus, no, no, no, like, there's something that's more important here. Even though I've got this kind of special goal, my goal might not be focused in the right area.

How can I align that to Jesus? That's a little less than that. For me, it's always stuck out with Barabbas. What are some of your paying jobs? What are some of your favorite lessons to? That's excellent. I had an experience just this last month. Some people who follow me on social media might know

that I've just had to deal with plenty of deaths lately. And I'm a pretty happy guy just in general. But it's been a load to carry. And it was someone, a friend who was texting me. Maybe it was you, John, was it you that said, even Jesus, someone, it was you, even Jesus had someone carry his cross for a while. And that really struck me. It really did. I'm still not going to let you help, but it still, it struck me that there could be a lesson there of allowing someone to help you with your burden.

Even Jesus, the greatest of all, allowed someone to help him. Yeah. And it's especially powerful thing like Jesus created Simon, right? Like Jesus is the creator of the world and for the creator to let his creation help him. Wow. That's powerful. Yeah. And to me, that's, it's very humbling because I because I know we focus on being a self-reliant people,

right, we are self-reliant, self-reliant, but maybe Jesus wants us to see this moment of, there are times when it's okay, it's okay to hand this burden off, and I've had awesome friends, awesome simons in my life, who have come to just take a burden away from me and it's been really beautiful. It makes me want to do that for others when I can. Well, I think that the statements on the cross, the thing that is always, to me, I guess it would be the pinnacle, would it be, is my God, my God, why has thou forsaken me as if I didn't see this one coming?

And of all the people that I thought, you know, and Elder Holland has talked about this, that the father was probably never closer, but somehow so that his victory would be complete for that moment left. And so that he would even know what it was like to feel of forsaken in such a dark abyss type of moment. That's one thing. And then the other thing that I just love to show my students because it was a, for me, was when Jesus said it is finished. And then in, I think it's Matthew 27, the JST down below, because I always thought I was

focused on the suffering. And I always thought it is finished. The it was about my suffering. And he says it is finished. And the JST ads for words, thy will is done. And I thought even then the Savior was focused on doing the Father's will and not even his own suffering, but on doing the Father's will. And that purchase makes me go, wow, because I think I'd be focused on my

suffering. And he was still focusing on doing the Father's will. And when you think about what he said, primordially, they will be done. And now he's saying, thy will is done. Wow, what a moment for that little JST forward edition. Just makes me go, wow, even then. And then when he came to the righteous in the new world, first thing out of his mouth, I've done the will of the Father from the beginning, I think, wow. You know, one thing that I've taught

as the Savior enters the Garden of Guest Empty, I ask my students when we see him, he says to his friends, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death. And I'll ask my students, when have we ever seen him like this? When have you ever seen him like this? And our entire semester studying his life, has he ever been someone to turn to their friend and say,

I am, I'm so depressed, I feel like I'm going to die. I something, you know, something is happening. And then he goes forward into the garden and he falls on his face. And now I'm going to learn to connect this all the way to Calvary that he's crying out, God, you know, where are you? Dr. Hilton, you said perfectly that we'll never, we'll never understand it. Like it's outside of our scope of understanding. But something is happening that is even kind of mind-blowing to Jesus. Something is happening that he has never experienced before. And I think it was Elder Maxwell who said,

even he with his unique intellect had, it was outside of almost his scope of understanding. And when it hits him, it is so much worse. Yeah, he was, he was amazed. And what would it take to amaze, Jesus. Right? Here's a, here's a being who has seen a lot, done a lot. And yet he's going, wow, I am, I'm kind of shocked by the, by the weight of this. So as much as we, if someone says to me, well, what happened in there? What happened? I want to know what happened. I want to know how in this amount of time this happened. I don't know. I don't know, but I can tell you that it was enough to scare

the most powerful, the most powerful being that we know of. It was enough to shock and amaze him. The most powerful being that we know of. It was enough to shock and amaze him. I think that's a really tender point we talked really about people who are going through really intense struggles. We've got the seven statements of Christ on the cross and then the eighth from the Joseph Smith translation, but in Matthew and Mark there's only one statement and it's the one that you mentioned, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And that's where it ends. That's the end of Christ on the cross. There's no, it is finished in Matthew or Mark.

And so I think it's okay for us to linger a little bit on that despair, the anguish, falling on his face and gasemone, to know that when we are in a dark moment, he understands. He's been there. He knows what it's like to be utterly completely alone. I think that maybe our listeners might want to find Elder Holland's comments. I think the talk is called and none were with him if that rings a bell. And something else I just want maybe our listeners to, because it seems like in the gospel accounts, the Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, it's like they were written after the fact.

But Jesus talked routinely about this is what I'm going to do, and it seems only the women understood, you know, she's doing it for my burial, right? Isn't that true? And it's like after the, wait a minute he did say that and I think There's a couple of verses. I just go wow where Jesus says okay Let's go back. This is a rough translation. Let's go back to Jerusalem The son of man will be betrayed by hands of sinners and will be crucified And he set his face toward Jerusalem like okay, let's go and. And I'm thinking, I am Jonah in that moment.

I am heading to Japa, right? They're gonna do what to me. And Jesus is like, let's go. And I think, wow, look at the courage. New is going to be crucified. And he set his face toward Jerusalem. And I think maybe it's important for listeners to know that maybe even as late as Peter

drawing his sword, they were expecting more of a political deliverer. It's definitely clear that there were different types of expectations for a Messiah, and at least among many Jewish people, they were expecting a temporal deliverer. So Jesus, the suffering savior, that's not the person they were expecting. Isn't a Paul that talks about the Greeks, this is foolishness. You don't have a God who dies. That's not a God who suffers and dies. What kind of a God is that? Right? We have like an immortal God. He's amazing. He's like incredible. A criminal dying on a cross, like, that's terrible. That's so shameful. That couldn't be a God.

Yeah. Well, a couple of verses from the book, Mormon, that I'd like to add, I remember one that I can still remember, Elder Nile Maxwell, some time when I was younger, listening in general conference and having him quote, this verse, first Nephi, 199, and the world because of their iniquities shall judge him to be a thing of not, wherefore they scourge him and he suffered it.

Yay, and they smite him and he suffered it. Yay, they spit upon him and he suffered it. And then because, and I love this because I've often thought what helped him through it. What was deep in his heart that was letting these people do this to him and it kind of answers it here because of his loving kindness and his long suffering towards the children of men. And Look, he loved us. He's patient with us. And then section 19, I have suffered these things for all that they might not suffer. That is an incredibly loving message.

I would prefer to take this myself than to have you suffer. Isaiah 49 or 1st Nephi 21, Zion hath said, the Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord have forgotten me, but he will show that he hath not. For can a woman forget her sucking child that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yeah, they may forget, yet will I not forget the O house of Israel, behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands. My walls are continually before me." So one of the chapters in my book is called The Loving Christ. And if it's okay, Hank and John, I'd love to just make a free PDF copy of that chapter and put it into the show notes, because I think that that concept of a loving Christ and how that helps build us a bridge with

other Christians is really important. Would that be okay? Can we put that in the show notes? Absolutely. If there's one thing that John, by the, in Hakesmith love, it's free stuff. So we will take it. And I know I've read that there's different meanings of that graven, but I love to show my students the sign language for Jesus. When I read that, which points to the center of the palms, one after another, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands. And this is something, John, I'd love your thoughts on. Why did Jesus choose to retain the one? I thought resurrected beings were all perfect again.

One note on that verse, I have graven thee on the palm of my hands. The thee is singular. It's you. It's not you all. Wow. And that's I think that is a powerful moment. He says, I know you your name, everything about you, Graven on the palms of my hands. And I don't know all the reasons why the Savior has chosen to retain his resurrection scars. But I think that maybe one reason are because it's a sacred symbol, both to him personally are because it's a sacred symbol, both to him personally and to us of the love that he has. There's the Zechariah 12 reference where at the end of Armageddon, is that right? What are those wounds in your hands? And he'll say those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. So I'm thinking, okay, it's got to fulfill prophecy. So I'll keep the wounds for that reason.

And then incredibly in the new world invites everyone to come one at a time and to feel the wounds. And I think if I shake your hand, there's a level of, you know, a level of intimacy there, but imagine being invited to feel someone's wounds. And having that one by one experience, and what that did to society for the Nephites

and the Lamanites, is the righteous of the Lamanites and the Nephites. To have 2500 witnesses of the crucifixion and resurrection like that change society so much we call it forth Nephi where they went for so many years with no contention and Moroni or Mormon keeps bringing up and there was no contention and there was no contention and there was no contention. And so I think of that another reason to retain that as you said, John, this is evidence they could touch of his love. One thing that you made me think of, John, just as a side note is, you know, the first things he says to the Nephites in 3511 is thrust your hands into my side. Yeah.

And others have taught me this. I don't know who, but the idea is that as John is telling us the Romans had perfected crucifixion, the Nephites likely wouldn't have had many points of reference on crucifixion, but they know immortal wounds when they see one. And so that mortal wound in his side, he kind of focuses on that because that's something they would tie to death rather than wounds in hands and feet. And so you've got a, there's just an interesting play there

where the Savior's saying, you probably don't understand crucifixion, you will one day. So let me just show you this wound in my side. And the knee fight would know, that's a fatal wound, right, versus those in your hands and your feet. I have a question for both of you and this is a little off the cuff, so that's okay.

And let's use this to wrap up episode one. We often talk about the atonement and the crucifixion, and they are amazing and wonderful. There's this question in the Come Follow Me manual that I think brings it back to an individual. And it's this, how can I tell if his atonement is having an effect in my life? Right, so we've got this beautiful, massive thing that is just incomprehensible to us, but I want it to work into my life. So if someone were to come to either of you and ask that question, I want it to work into my life. So if someone were to come to either of you and ask that question, I want, I love what you've taught me

about the atonement, I love how amazing it is now help me get it into my daily walk in life. What would be, what would you say? You know, when in John chapter 12, Jesus says, when I am lifted up, I will draw all people unto me. And so I think that is one indication. Am I feeling closer to Jesus Christ? For me personally, studying Christ's death has changed my life. And

I can't quantify all the ways that that's happened, but I'm just a little kinder. I think about Jesus a little bit more. And as you know, when you're thinking about Jesus, it's hard to be angry. We should study more of every aspect of the Savior's life. I think studying his atonement in particular helps us to think of him more. And as we are the Spiritus with us more, we just feel a closer connection to the Savior. And to me, that would be one indication. The atonement, I'm feeling the Holy Ghost. That is an indication that the atonement is working in your life. So yeah, what I hear you saying, John, is, hey, I don't know how it's going to work,

but I do know that if you study this, it will work. It will work. You might not feel the exact moment where you became different, but over a long period of time, you will see this over a period of time. President Nelson's invitation to study all the references to Jesus Christ on the topical guide. And he does this and says, I am a new man. I'm a changed person.

I mean, now that's incredible. And I think we're going to see similar changes in our own lives. And we'll feel it. And that's the atonement, helping us to change and to draw closer to Christ as we study him more. Excellent. I think that is so wise. Put yourself, I would say this. Put yourself in experiences where the Holy Ghost can be present because the Holy Ghost, to me in scripture, is almost the vehicle

by which this beautiful atonement can get into your heart, mind, and soul and weave itself into into your being So if you are feeling the Holy Ghost like you said John I think that's an indication that the atonement is working in your life And so to me when I when I use that as a kind of a gauge I don't I don't want to lose the spirit. Because if I lose the spirit, I lose the effects of the atonement in my life. It's not just a while,

I've lost the Holy Ghost for a little while. No, I do not want to lose the effects of the atonement in my life. I want it to be working on me maybe even faster than it does, please, right? Like let's get this going. But I want to put myself in places where the Holy Ghost will have an opportunity to come into my heart and mind even more powerfully than maybe I already have it. Because that means that the atonement is working in my life even more so.

Again, I don't know how. I wish I could explain the ins and outs of it all. I wish I could say this is how the atonement changes you and makes you and perfect you. And then it's just it's a beautiful idea. I don't know how it works, but I know that it works. John, by the way, what would you say? How can I tell if the atonement is happening affect in my life? I'm just right in line with you. There's a David O. McKay, quote, what you sincerely think in your heart of Christ will determine what you are, will largely determine what your thoughts will be. And I think he said, no one can study his divine personality without becoming conscious of an uplifting and refining influence within himself. And that's what I was thinking, as you are saying that, John, is that you're different

when you're thinking about him and his love for us and what he did. And all the things we could talk about, I just love when, I went worth letter one out. Well, I know there's all these different things we could talk about. But what are the first principles? And the first thing is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And thank you for writing it that way. That's the first thing. And we become conscious of that influence. As we think about it and think about it every day. Yeah, I would say as I have found the atonement working in my life,

I, one question for me personally is, do I feel like I want to repent? That's an indication to me. Do I feel like I, oh, I just, I want to repent some more. Please give me a chance to repent some more. Because that seems to follow faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, right John? Second repentance.

So if you are feeling like I need to repent, now I don't know about either of you, but I, it's hard to find things to repent of. Because I just, for you Hank, for sure. It is, it is difficult, but I'm saying in your case. But if I search, I can usually find something.

I figured that story in the New Testament. I mean, it all came out of a focus on the law of Moses, but that story, what lack I yet, I'm like, Oh, sure. That is not my, that is not, you know, I'm pretty stumped here. Lord, I am thought about it and thought, what in the world? I can't think of one thing. I'm just like, Oh, sure. Get me a yellow pad and leave me alone. Can you imagine? I would know if I asked that of Jesus, he'd say, do you want it alphabetically, chronologically, how do you want this list? We can have it delivered.

I mean, did you really just... All you want, volume two. I'm imagining. Did you really just say what lack I yet? I just... And so Hank, when you said that, you feel like you want to repent, you know what came to mind?

King Benjamin's speech, what was the impact? We have no more disposition to do evil. We just want to do good continually. And I always ask my students, do you think that was permanent? And my personal opinion is no, you've had that feeling. You felt that at general conference. I'm never going to sin again. Like this, that was a great talk.

I think you older Holland and you're so fired up. But then you got to go back to school. You gotta go back to work. And so you keep coming back where that spirit is. You keep coming back where the Savior's influence is to keep coming back to that good feeling. I just wanna do better, I wanna repent. Please join us for part two of this podcast.