Fresh Air - Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village

Episode Date: May 22, 2025

Walton Goggins talks with Tonya Mosley about growing up poor in the Deep South, the travel that changed him, and collaborating with his wife. He says his unconventional childhood shaped his approach to acting, from Justified to The White Lotus and The Righteous Gemstones. David Bianculli reviews a new two-part HBO documentary about Paul Reubens, who played Pee-Wee Herman.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

World news is important, but it can feel far away. Not on the State of the World podcast. With journalists around the world, you'll hear firsthand the effects of US trade actions in Canada and China. And meet a Mexican street sweeper who became a pop star. We don't go around the world, we're already there. Listen to the State of the World podcast from NPR every weekday. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley.

And today my guest is Walton Goggins. He has been on a run like no other. The White Lotus, The Righteous Gemstones, Fallout, and his newest film, The Uninvited. It's the latest surge in a 30-year career built on playing some of the most magnetic and morally complex characters in film and television. From the sharp-witted outlaw Boyd Crowder in Justified, to the swaggering, scheming Baby Billy Freeman in The Righteous Gemstones, to a series of layered portrayals of Southern men in films including Quentin Tarantino's Django Unchained and The Hateful Eight.

Goggins has talked about how he tries to bring authenticity and nuance to his roles, portraying Southern men resisting the pressure to turn them into caricatures. Lately, Goggins has been reflecting on the arc of his career and how his childhood has informed his approach to his craft. And when we sat down for our interview, he said, "'Let's get into the thick of it, the real of it,

life in between the roles. So that's exactly what we did. We started talking about hosting Saturday Night Live, which he did a few weeks ago. It was the day before Mother's Day, and he describes it as a high point in his career, in part because he shared the moment with his mother. I was raised in Atlanta, Georgia by my mother with the help of her three sisters and my grandmother and My mama is the most important person in my life Whenever my mama she couldn't afford a babysitter she would take me with her to honky-tonks

My mother taught me how to clog, taught me how to two-stuck, and luckily enough for me, my mama is here tonight. We've come a really long way, haven't we, Mom? Absolutely. And since it's Mother's Day tomorrow, Mama, would you dance with me? Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know what? Yeah, hold on.

Let's kick this up a notch. Fellas, if you don't mind. Walden Goggins, welcome to Fresh Air. So, so happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation. Walden, that was such a beautiful moment. And she came up on stage, and then you all started dancing. But you know, the thing that really got me about that is when you're raised by a single mom, there is nobody like you and your mother knowing what it took for you to be up on that stage. It's very true. And my mom's life story is so interesting. And the journey that it took

her the life that she led up until having a child and then the life that subsequently we had together to be kind of on that stage in that moment after not seeing my mom for a year. Danielle Pletka Really? Why? Because you're busy? Richard Hildesmeyer I've just been on the road for a year and a half and it just so happened that she came to our home and stepped in when I was out of town to help my wife, and she's obviously really close to her grandson, our son. But I just missed her, and I kept missing her by like a day or something. So I saw her in her dressing room at 30 Rock for the first time. I mean, that was the reunion I had, and five minutes later, we're doing the first run through of the monologue

and the dancing. And all of the emotions, all the feels were happening like in real time and in front of other people. And it was really remarkable. And obviously, the tears kind of in her eyes. My mom has no stage fright. Well, obviously, because she jumped right into it. Right in. Like give me a crowd, if I'm dancing for one person or I'm dancing for a million, it doesn't matter to my mom and she's had such an amazing spiritual journey that she knows exactly who she is and that's rubbed off on me. And you've talked about how growing up it

was you and her and you all had each other and you would go she would take you when she didn't have a babysitter to the honky-tonks. I mean I have a single mother and and she had some amazing boyfriends that were extremely influential in my life but she also had three sisters, my aunts and my grandmother. And then I had my grandfather, my father's father and my grandmother kind of on that side too. But it was, I wasn't raised, honestly, Tanya, by anybody. And if my mom was sitting here, she would say the same thing. I've always kind of had the moniker that Walton raised himself. And what I mean by that is it wasn't neglect.

It was the opposite. There were always people around. It was like a village. Like I was raised by a village of people. Nicole Soule This makes sense because you said something a while ago that like you never slept more than seven days in the same bed until you were like around 15 years old. And so now this is kind of making sense. Is that because you were in a village, you were just going from house to house or why was that? Pete Slauson Yeah. I mean, you know, my mother wasn't, you know, young when she had me. I mean, she had me, I think she was 23 or something

like that. But my parents got divorced when I was three. And we lived in Decatur, Georgia, downtown, a little duplex. And then eventually we got this little house out in Lithia Springs, Georgia. And it was everything for my mom to buy a house. But with that, my mom just had a lot of great friends. Screens weren't a big part of your life, meaning like you weren't someone who was really into movies or shows growing up, but you always sit on the porch. Was this at your mom's house on the front porch and just talk to people? Yeah. You know, yeah. No, we didn't go to see a lot of movies. I mean, we went to some seminal movies, but it wasn't certainly a big part of our life. I mean, we had a television,

you know, I mean, Sanford and Son, and, you know, the Jeffersons and TBS. Those are the ones you were watching? Michael S. Lauer And the Braves, you know? Danielle Pletka Yeah. Yeah. Michael S. Lauer Yeah, absolutely. Still watch them, you know? But yeah, so we didn't have a lot of screens kind of growing up that really wasn't a big part of our life. My aunt Joan and her husband, my uncle Mark, they were both actors in the theater and in a regional kind of equity theater, usually like all over kind of the south. But they traveled a bit up north and I grew up

watching them on stage. But this entire group of people that I'm talking to you about, all of them, like you could just hand the microphone to any one of these people and they could just command the room for hours. And no one interrupted their story because they just wanted to hear it. And it was just a lot of laughter and a lot of weed, you know? And they were all deeply empathic people and they wore their emotions on their sleeve and they always cared about other people. It seems like it's something that is of great value to you. One of the details that I always find funny, I've heard you say the story a couple of times that you were runner up for the friendliest person in the mock election in high school.

And the thing about that that really got me was that you hold on to that detail that you were runner up, you know? But also that like that is a quality of yours that you feel is important. I do feel that being kind is important. I mean, it's not like I, excuse my language, it's not like I can't be an asshole. I can, for sure. But it's not like I, excuse my language, it's not like I can't be an ass f***. I can, for sure. But it is something that you value. It is something that I value, yeah, deeply. And this is the women in my family. This is

my mother. We never had a washing dryer when I was young. And so we'd go to the laundromat, like a lot of people do. And there was video game there, arcade game, centipede or whatever, and she would give me the change to play it. But spending those years in a laundromat, just being around people, my mother's dream in life was to be able to afford, to be able to take a thousand dollars out of the bank and go around to all these

other people folding their laundry and when they weren't looking, slip in a $20 bill, you know, like so that when they got home, it's like, wow, oh my God, like in their sweatpants. That was a dream she would share with you. Yeah, it was a dream. Yeah, absolutely. It's like, what would you do with a million dollars? This is what I would do with a thousand dollars, you know? And that led me to have this experience in Cambodia. What did you do? Okay, ready for this? I was traveling in Southeast Asia.

I was in Cambodia and then I was in Northern Vietnam. I came back to Cambodia and I wanted to go work for an organization because I met this really cool backpacker and she said, I just got back and this organization was cool. I called them and I said, I'd really like to come. I'd like to give some money or I'd like to do something like a lot of people do. The guy, you know, never got back to me. But so then I had this driver, his name was Tang, and he had this tuk-tuk, right, that he drove me around. I knew enough about the country to know that there are families that still comb the trash pile looking for jewelry and things of value that they can

make money off of, correct. So I stopped at the ATM. I had out $2,000 in small bills, and we spent, I'm gonna say, 12 hours just walking that trash pile on top of it, and then the tents and everything that are off to the side. And I just gave it out $20 at a time, just like my mama. it out, $20 at a time, just like my mama. And it was one of the greatest experiences of my life. You know, to grow up poor, you always have dreams that like, one day I'll be able to do this, or what would you do with this, or what would you give up in life to have a million dollars? You know, sometimes it's always those fantasies and jokes. You started working at 12 years old? Yeah, 12. Yeah. And you have had some really interesting jobs before you became an actor. You worked a construction site.

Yeah, mix and cement. Yeah, for Rockmasons. Yeah. Skating rink? Yeah, skating rink. It was, I think it's all, it's been downhill from there. Yeah, as a DJ in a skating rink, yep, yep. Going into my summer before my ninth grade year. I sold bait. I worked with a roofing crew. And going to school too? Well it was summer, right? But then we had a program once we got into high school where you know you start working I think in the 11th grade or something like that, however many hours that you could work for a week. It was very different back then. And yeah I got in that program and I just kept working and I worked in retail you know at the mall like a lot of people

do, but with my best friend, this guy Edwin, and a crew of guys that I grew up with, we sold newspapers, the Atlanta Journal and the Constitution door to door. And we would only work like three hours a day, but we had that gift of gab, you know, and just to make people have a good time. And we sold so many subscriptions to Atlanta Journal and the Constitution. It was so much fun. Yeah. I mean, you've talked, though, about like you wanted to have money in your pocket, but you also kind of felt a little bit of insecurity, but maybe even shame about being

poor. Oh, God, absolutely. And I don't carry it with me so much anymore, but I think that's one of the most profound kind of insecurities that I had with me for a long time. Two things, really. But one, being this outsider, not having a lot as a kid. And there was one moment where I was dating this girl, and I just liked her so much. I had the biggest crush on this person. And I remember her mom was coming to pick me up, and I think I lied to my mom. She knew where I was going to go, and I said, Mom, I think she's going to be here pretty soon. I didn't give her my address. I gave

her my neighbor's address. And I said, Okay, Mom, I think you're coming. I love't give her my address. I gave her my neighbor's address. And I said, okay, well, I think you're coming. I love you. Bye bye. And I ran out and hit in the ditch. And I saw these lights kind of coming and I knew it was them. And so I just jumped out and like, as if I was walking down the driveway and they pulled in and then the porch light kind of came on behind me. And I just jumped in the car. It's like, let's go well can't we meet your you know your mom no no no she's let's just get out of here and and the other thing was not having a um not finishing college and not having those four years of deep soulful learning. You spent a year in college and I just wondered about this because you carried like an

insecurity about that, that you didn't have maybe that formative education with all the classics and things like that. Yeah, just being in conversations when I got out to Los Angeles, there was one ride in particular kind of coming back from San Diego to LA where I was with this group of people that all went to these fancy schools. And they were talking about literature and referencing all of these different authors and the characters in these books. And I just had no idea what they were talking about. Nothing.

And I just kept making these mental notes. Before cell phone, I could put a note down and it was like, okay, yeah. You're like Ernest Hemingway. Somerset mom, like all of these different things, John Steinbeck. And then I just kind of set out to do that on my own, but I would have given anything to have had that time. I wouldn't have traded my life because I wouldn't want

anything to be altered in my life because I'm so grateful for the life that I have, not just in this moment. I've always been grateful for my life. But if I could go back and not alter my life, I would take four years meeting kids in class and talking politics in a second. AMT – Why did you leave after a year from college? BD – Because I got this offer from American Express to go into debt. AMT – Wait, wait, wait. You got to tell us. So you got in the mail. BD – I showed up to college like everybody else and I began getting mail and one of the first

pack of advertising was this offer from American Express that said if you get this card you will get two flight vouchers for $99 east of the Mississippi or $199 west of the Mississippi. And I looked at them and I thought, all I've got to do is get this card and I can go to Los Angeles for $199 because the tickets were so expensive back then. And at that time, you had already had the acting bug. And I already started working. Yeah. And I had done like in the heat of the acting bug. And I already started working. Yeah. And I had done like in the heat of the night and then this big movie of the week called

Murder of Mississippi about the three slain civil rights workers. Yeah. Had it already crystallized in your mind then by that time that acting was the career you wanted to go into? I mean, certainly that was going to be a part of my experience was trying it, you know, I mean, endeavoring to do it, endeavoring to learn what it is that you're asking yourself to do. Absolutely, I would be lying if I said otherwise.

But it was really also to have an experience. Like I just wanted to get out. I just wanted to see the world. I wanted a passport that was filled with stamps from all over the world. And that's what I wanted. And coming to Los Angeles, being able to at least try to become a storyteller was going to be a part of my journey. And then if that didn't work out, you know, I don't know what I would have done But it would have I would have had a passport filled with stamps from other countries that I do know Hmm. How much money did you come to LA with in your pocket 300 bucks? There's an element when you grow up in poverty that a little bit of it always stays with you always

What are the ways that you might know that others may not even perceive? I still save my per diem. Like you know I understand you know the value of a dollar. And the per diem is what what the studio gives you or what they give you when you're on a movie. A living allowance. Yeah and I will spend a thousand dollars on a meal but only after I've eaten for free for 10 days. You know what I mean? Just the insecurity of, even though I never lost a house, my mom never lost her house or anything like that, but the insecurity of not being able to provide for my family.

I want to talk about some of your early roles because one of your first roles happened in 1997 with Robert Duvall on The Apostle. And this film, to remind people, Duvall plays Sonny. He is a Pentecostal preacher and he's charismatic but deeply flawed. And you played this young man Sam who becomes a born-again Christian after you meet Duvall's character. I read that after you all finished filming, Deval took you to lunch and he gave you some advice. Well, he gave me some advice, you know, and he gave me a compliment that I certainly wasn't expecting. We were at lunch and he said, you know, I want to tell you something. Hey, hey

he said, you know, not many people can do what you just did not many people willing to do what you just did and Because you're not thinking about it and you're just coming from your heart. There is no filter on you and You're turning yourself over to an imaginary set of circumstances, but he said don't And you're turning yourself over to an imaginary set of circumstances. But he said, don't lose that. He said, I don't even think you're fearless. I don't even think fear comes into it. I think maybe you're fearful, but I don't think it's a decision for you to be fearless. I don't think you came to this job thinking, I'm going to show people, I'm going to just

let it all hang out. It's just in your body. And don't ever, ever, ever lose that. Like be that open always. What he was saying was, you're not jaded, you're not, I mean, it's not like you don't have obstacles that you need to overcome and deep insecurities, but what you do have is an open heart. And don't lose that, man. You know what I mean? Always come from that, even if you get it wrong. But don't lose that love and passion for this work or that you appear to have in life.

Our guest today is actor Walton Goggins. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosleyley and this is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. At a time of sound bites and short attention spans, our show is all about the deep dive. We do long-form interviews with people behind the best in film, books, TV, music, and journalism. Here our guests open up about their process and their lives in ways you've never heard before. Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.

On the Indicator from Planet Money podcast, we're here to help you make sense of the economic news from Trump's tariffs. It's called in game theory a trigger strategy, or sometimes called grim trigger, which sort of has a cowboy-esque ring to it. To what exactly a sovereign wealth fund is. For Insight Every Weekday, listen to NPR's The Indicator from Planet Money.

Are you one of the half of Americans who say money management is part of their self-care routine or one of the 41% of young adults who think financial well-being means having multiple streams of income? On It's Been A Minute, I'm investigating how young people are turning to OnlyFans, sports betting, and Klarna to stretch every last dollar. That's all month long on the It's Been A Minute podcast from NPR. One of the things about you as an actor that I see over and over again is that, you know, you're memorable and every single thing that you're in, people remember you. And it's also true that you haven't gotten quite a bit of roles because you're so memorable. Because can they

have this guy who's like, everyone can see and and know be like the supporting actor. Was that ever frustrating for you at any point in your career? Well, I just never, I've been around for such a long time. Based on my looks or my personality, I'm not like a conventional leading man or I haven't been my whole life. The people that knew what to do with me knew what to do with me early on, but I just didn't have those opportunities in film. A couple of leading roles in movies that no one saw and I'm still so proud of them. And I just, I made the most out of every single opportunity that I was given. Because the only thing that you can control in this business is the work that you put into it, right?

Expecting nothing in return. And I have had that. I just didn't have those opportunities. It was only once television kind of opened up for me that I began to carve out a space for me with these opportunities that went in many different ways. But for the most part, if you get the opportunity to go to work, you go to work. Whenever you've been away from it a little long because your ego got involved and you think, oh, well, that's beneath me. Is it? Really? Go to work. Have you had those moments? Oh, man. You know, after the shield, you know, I mean, it was prestige television at the

dawning of this last iteration of that. This was like your really big regular series. Yeah, yeah. 2001? Yeah, it would have been, we did the pilot before 9-11. And then they picked it up and we went to work, whatever, six or seven months later. But after that experience, you know, seven years, having that experience, after that, you know, I couldn't get a job for anything, you know? Nothing kind of came my way. And I guess because just like, like when people saw The Apostle, we had a premiere at the Toronto Film Festival. And I remember my manager's friend leaning in and whispering my ear, this is going to be a big movie for

you. Even though you, you know, you have a smaller part, you take it emotionally, get ready. Nothing happened because people thought I was just from New Orleans, from Louisiana, and I just got this local hire or whatever. And people thought that about me for a really long time. T.V. Did you get excited about that? Because I'm just thinking you've been in so many, you know, like, okay, you're in The Apostle, then The Shield, then you go into these prestige movies. Tonya I didn't think too much about it, to be quite honest with you. Tonya, I just thought, just go back to work. And so, after The Shield, nothing happened. And then a friend of mine was doing this movie and offered me a really, really small part and my ego was in the way.

It was like, man, I just want more. And I was walking with my wife. She looked at me and said, you need to go to work. And I said, yeah, that's exactly what I need to do. I'm going to call him right now. And I did. I took it and work begets work. And so for me, that's happened two or three times in my, after the hateful eight. I could phone didn't ring, you know, for a long time. And it's like, man, this is this Quentin. That's pretty good role. I mean, that's pretty good. I mean, like, right, everybody's thinking this is the moment. Okay, I'm in a Quentin Tarantino movie. Yeah, a second one.

With Sam and with Kurt and Jen and Tim, like, and I couldn't get a job. And then I got a phone call to do something. And I just thought, yeah, you know what, I can do that. And it was just, it's almost like God just said, okay, well, you're just gonna have to keep moving, you know what I mean? You're gonna have to keep swimming upstream and all of these different ways and go off on this little tributary or this one here, because those are the opportunities that you're getting. So just say yes.

Danielle Pletka It's interesting you mentioned your wife, you know, you're going for a walk and she can see in you, you got to go to work. She can feel that restlessness in you. You all have done a project together, The Uninvited. And this is your wife's very first movie. I want to tell people a little bit about the uninvited. So the story centers on a single evening in the Hollywood Hills. Rose is the main character. She's a former stage actress turned reluctant housewife. And you play her husband, Sammy. He's a Hollywood talent agent.

He's like a bombastic guy. And the two of you throw this small but high stakes party at this lavish home to impress Sammy's biggest client. It's a hotshot director. One of the things your wife does in the writing is she illuminates really like this idea of how wealth and status really can't shut out the realities of life.

That like all of the things still happen to this family despite the fact that they're wealthy and they're in this big Hollywood home. And this woman who comes that's older and is confused, she represents so many things. It all just kind of comes crashing in. I think one of the most important takeaways for the movie for me is that the uninvited is actually an invitation to live your life more meaningfully. And that's what all of these characters do. They have money, but as they say in the movie, most of this is borrowed anyway.

They're just renting their, they bought a house that they'll never be able to pay for. It's just a facade, you know? They're on a treadmill like everyone else. And then this woman shows up at their house and is the great disruptor to, you know, shake all of these people out of walking through life, you know, numbly without, without kind of experiencing everything that's kind of going on around you. And, and she's a great catalyst for change for all these people. And it happened to us. It's based on, yeah, like a real story. Yeah. So we were a party that we were throwing at our house and a woman showed up in her eighties and rang the buzzer and said, I need to get in my house, please. And yeah, so it's

predicated on that. It's a great story. People have really responded to it. I'm to get in my house, please. And yeah, so it's predicated on that. It's a great story. People have really responded to it. I'm really proud of my wife. Because it's an independent film, right? You've got Pedro Pascal. There are some big names in this movie. Rufus Sewell, Lois Smith, Elizabeth Reiser. Yeah, some really, really great people. You know, these are life experiences, but I can't help but think about how they're infused in what you do because you're wanting to have these human connections with people and understand people and one of the things you're just known for you're taking on comedic acting you're taking on serious

roles you're inhabiting people that are characters they seem like singular forces but there's something that you are pulling from these different serious roles, you're inhabiting people that are characters, they seem like singular forces, but there's something that you are pulling from these different experiences that are they showing up in the work that you do? Because I feel like it is. I think so. Thank you very much for saying that first and foremost, but I do. The art of storytelling, the job of storytelling, the privilege of storytelling for me, it is a religion. And the way that I was raised, the people that raised me and their empathy for the world

around them and for their fellow men and women is how I approach every job that I do. I just, I love getting close to these people that that I get to play that I've had the opportunity to play and and understanding the world from their point of view. But that's always been with me since I was a kid because that's how I was raised. It makes you emotional and I just like every time you get to this point you start you start to get emotional. I'm just wanting to, every time you get to this point, you start to get emotional. I'm just wanting to know what is it. Okay. Well, I think about the shield, you know, and I think about the ending of that.

And I think about the tragedy of this person who was under the influence of this guy, Vic Mackie, so brilliantly played by Chickless. And I think about the way that his life ended and I think about him being on the run and I think about the conversation that he had once he found love in his life and he was his own man without much time left to live because like he found peace and something to live for and I go right back there every single time I talk about it. I look at Boyd Crowder's journey and it is not so different from my own. It is a dude who is just trying to get out of poverty and reinvent himself, not so that other people can see him in a certain way, so that he can see himself in a different way. And his whole journey is something that

is so profoundly intimate to me. Just like the Rick and the White Lotus, every single thing, the role in the Hateful Eight, Chris Mannix is dying on the bed thinking about what does it take to change the heart and mind of one white dude, you know? What does that mean really? And all of these people, they mean something to me. And what's so exciting about my life is that I'm not done. There are more people for me to meet. Whether I get it right or whether I don't get it right is irrelevant to me. I will always strive to understand these people

with the level of empathy and curiosity that was instilled in me from my childhood and that I moved through life with. You mentioned Boyd Crowder and that's from the show Justified. It debuted in 2010, it ran for six seasons. Your character Boyd, he's this charismatic outlaw and you star alongside Timothy Olyphant

who plays US Marshal Raelynn Givens. And both of you are shaped by the same world, but, of course, you have different outcomes. Well, the scene that I want to play is from the end of the series, and I want to play it because it kind of goes back to something you're talking about when you keep going back to home,

like the foundation of who you are. So at the end of the series, when Boyd is in prison and Raelynn comes to deliver some news to him face to home, like the foundation of who you are. So at the end of the series when Boyd is in prison and Raelyn comes to deliver some news to him face to face, you all say this thing and your character speaks first. Let's listen. Can I ask you one question before you go? As long as you understand, if it annoys me, I'm just gonna hang up. Scout's honor. Traveling to Tentree is a long way from Miami, Raylan.

You could have called the warden, could have sent word through my lawyer. Ask him why I came. I thought it was news that should be delivered in person. Could have sent word to my lawyer. Ask him why I came. Thought it was news that should be delivered in person. That's the only reason. After all these long years we're having given us, that's the only reason.

And I suppose if I allow myself to be sentimental, despite all that has occurred, there is one thing I wonder back to you. We dug coal together. That's right. Hi. That's my guest today, Walton Goggins from the FX series Justified. It's the statement that echoes through the show that we dug coal together. Yeah. The people, we move on, we go in different directions, but there's that tie that always

holds us together, you know? Some of the things you said about yourself when you were young are all the things you shared, but there's also, was there a moment in time when there could have been another path for you? When you got in trouble, when you got into some things, or people that you've left behind that you dug coal together with but have taken another path. I mean, you know, we dug coal as a metaphor for so many things in our lives, right? But yeah, there were, you know, our friends that just went a different way.

I don't think that that was ever, ever going to happen for me. I don't think I had a choice. If you're just joining us, I'm talking to actor Walton Goggins. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. I want to talk a little bit about Baby Billy from The Righteous Gemstones. I just talked to Danny McBride, the creator.

I know you all have now become dear friends. I know Baby Billy is like a composite of a lot of different people. You and Danny McBride went into a room together and you created this person. I need to know more about where you got that from and like where the accent, all of it, it's like somebody I know. It's like my uncle in Mississippi, you know, like get over here. Where did you get that from?

Well, you know, I really, and I genuinely mean this. I've said this so many times, but I don't believe in playing a character. I don't believe in making choices. I don't sit in a room and go, oh, is it, is baby Bella right here? What is he? Oh, is baby Bella here? Like, where is he? How does he walk? I don't really think about those things. I don't stand in front of a mirror and go, Oh, what it wouldn't it be interesting, like from a cerebral kind of analytical point of view, you just put on the costume and put on the clothes and then you're just that person. I just spend so much time in

my imagination imagining these people are real. But they come from probably the places along the way. Absolutely. So, okay, my father, there's a... A bit of a belly again. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, just kind of like a big flamboyant personality that can just fill up a room. My father's an amazing guy and a really entertaining guy. He was a tough guy for a long time when I was growing up, but he's a very, very, very interesting person.

I'm Walton Sanders Goggins Jr. and my half brother is Walton Sanders Goggins III. My father is probably by definition a clinical narcissist, but he's also, he's a good man. A father has a really good heart. And like all of us, he just did the best he could, you know, with his trauma. And I do have a lot of forgiveness in my heart and not even forgiveness, just understanding at this point. The father-son relationship was a prominent through line in The White Lotus. Your character

Rick went to Thailand in search of the person who he thought was responsible for his father's death. It's really interesting when you talk about like this place that you've come to with your own father and that character arc but what was it like to be a part of such a Series on the other side of it that really takes on these real Serious societal issues through these very dysfunctional people Well, you know I can tell you that my own relationship with my own father, I was very angry at my own father. And it was the big... That you had to move through. That I had to move through. And it wasn't all gone, you know, like a miracle in that moment,

but it did open the door and it did allow me to begin that process and it did speed it up because I wanted to have that forgiveness. And Rick is for the first time in his life, two weeks before this show started, he is someone who is in a moment of doing inventory in his whole life in a sober moment looks around and says, how did I get here? Why am I here? Why am I living this life? And there in his mind is one person that is responsible for that, that permanently altered the course of his life in a very negative way. And Mike White, with all of these stories, but this one in particular, he brings such a deeply nuanced observation of these experiences in the world, and he's able to tell them with with humor but with pathos and with anger you know in a way that very few people can.

Walton Goggins this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. It has been such a pleasure to be in your company. Thank you so much for this conversation truly. Walton Goggins stars in the new film, The Uninvited. It's now available for streaming on demand and in select theaters. After a short break, TV critic David Bianculli reviews the two-part HBO documentary, Pee-wee as himself. This is Fresh Air.

Paul Rubens, the actor best known for his alter ego of Pee-wee Herman, died in 2023 after a private six-year battle with cancer. Near the end of his life, Rubens collaborated on a documentary, sitting for 40 hours of intimate interviews with director Matt Wolfe. The result of that effort is the two-part HBO documentary Pee Wee as Himself, which premieres Friday, May 23rd. TV critic David Bianculli has this review. When Paul Rubin speaks directly to the camera in Pee Wee as Himself, framed tightly by the lens and looking frail but still feisty, it's as though he's delivering his last will and testament. And he says as much. This is such a dumb thing to say, but, you know, death is just so final, you know, that

to be able to, like, get your message in at the last minute or at some point is incredible. So what is his message in this new documentary? On one level, Rubin sets out to explain his artistic process and the inspirations and motivations behind the character of Pee Wee Herman. On another level, he explores what he gained and lost by refusing to be seen or interviewed as himself for the whole time Pee Wee was starring

in movies or television. And most delicately and intriguingly, Paul Rubens provides his point of view about things that rarely were discussed by him during his lifetime, from his private life and sexuality to his infamous arrest on charges of public indecency. In covering all this ground, Rubens opens up his pack rat archive of personal photos and home movies. Director Matt Wolfe interviews other people as well, such as Lorraine Newman, who worked with Rubens in the LA improv group The Groundlings, and directors Tim Burton and Judd Apatow, and several actors who appeared in the long-running CBS children's series Pee Wee's Playhouse including Laurence Fishburne, Natasha Lyonne and

Esa Patha Merkerson. By the time Rubens took his Pee Wee character to Saturday Morning TV in 1986 he says he knew exactly what he wanted to do and Merkerson says she appreciated it. I just felt right from the get-go, something that I could do that could be very important and very subliminal would be to just make the show very inclusive and not comment on it in any way. Captain Kangaroo, Suppy Sails, Howdy Doody.

You know, none of those shows did I see myself reflected. Captain Kangaroo, Suppy Sails, Howdy Doody, you know, none of those shows did I see myself reflected. So that I had the opportunity to be a part of a show that young black kids would see and go, oh, there's an image of me here. That means a lot to me. The Road to Pee-wee's Playhouse, an utterly brilliant TV show, is relayed by Pee-wee's alter ego in bursts of quick but clear developmental insights.

The shows he watched as a kid. I was absolutely transformed in such a strong way by so many things in early television. I wanted to jump into my TV and live in that world. Say kids, what time is it? My favorite kids shows were absolutely like Howdy Duty, Captain Kangaroo, and the Mickey Mouse Club. His inspirations for the name Pee-wee Herman. I had a little harmonica, a little tiny harmonica this big that said Pee-wee on it.

And I thought Pee-wee, and I knew this kid when I was little who was like this crazy, like really loud and nutty kid, and his last name was Herman. And I thought Pee-wee Herman sounds so weird that it sounds real. It just didn't sound like a made up name at all, like Cary Grant or like Rock Hudson or like a made up name.

It sounded Pee-wee Herman like, if you were making up a name, wouldn't you make up a better name than that? And noting the meteoric rise sounded Pee-wee Herman like, if you were making up a name, wouldn't you make up a better name than that? And noting the meteoric rise of Pee-wee, from an improv bit at the Groundlings to the star of his own stage show, movie, and TV series, his view of the effects of stardom on his own carefully cultivated privacy.

If I was conflicted about sexuality, fame was so much more complicated. By the time I realized that you trade in anonymity and privacy for success, the ink had dried on my back with the devil. All of that imploded in 1991, after an event reported by CBS anchor Dan Rather. In Sarasota, Florida, actor Paul Rubens, better known as TV's Pee-wee Herman, is free on bail after being charged with indecent exposure in an adult movie theater. CBS announced today that under the circumstances, the network is dropping scheduled reruns of the program He-We's Playhouse. Paul Rubens addresses all of this frankly, taking great pains to explain his point of

view. Yet, that's not the most compelling or illuminating part of this documentary. The part that reveals the most, especially about Paul Rubens as an artist and a person, is his constant tug-of-war with the documentary's director, Matt Wolf. At times, Rubens is goofing around during the interviews and being coy. Other times, he tells Wolf he doesn't trust him and would rather get his message out himself without Wolf's editorial interference. Peewee as himself makes clear that Paul Rubens was a control freak of sorts. And at the end,

Rubens finally gets in the last word, unfiltered. It's worth hearing. And for this HBO documentary, it's just the right coda. David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed the new documentary Pee Wee as Himself, premiering tomorrow on HBO. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.