Halford & Brough in the Morning - This Team Will Tear Us Apart

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

In hour two, Mike & Jason preview an iconic matchup in the Knicks-Pacers series with Draft Kings NBA's Julian Edlow (2:09), plus they set up game one of the Western Conference Finals with former NHLer & Stars analyst Craig Ludwig (25:03), as Dallas gets set to take on the Edmonton Oilers. This podcast is produced by Andy Cole and Greg Balloch. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

The 1888 are resounding. A message sent by the top seeded thunder. 703 on a Wednesday. Glad he got my ear. It's Euro Trash Wednesdays. As you call it, it's Defensiveness Wednesday. We were just had, I think that's the problem with having open conversations. It forces too much introspection. Then the self-loathing starts. We are coming to you live from the Kintec studio.

Kintec footwear and orthotics working together with you in step. This team is going to tear us apart. Not yet. Maybe one day. That should be the banner for next season. Team. Te tear us apart. We are going to shift gears ever so slightly in this hour.

Julian Edloff is going to join us in a moment to talk a little. Nick Pacers ahead of game one of the NBA's Eastern Conference final tonight. And then at 7.30, Craig Ludwig, former NHL defenseman, owner of the biggest shin pads in NHL history, is going to join us to preview game one of the NHL defenseman, owner of the biggest shin pads in NHL history is going to join us to preview a game. One of the NHL's Western Conference Final between the Dallas Stars and the Edmonton Oilers. Before we get to Julian, a couple of things we need to do here. Need to tell you that we are now officially in our two of the Halford and Bruff show on Sportsnet 650. Our two is brought to you by Jason Hominock at Jason.Mortgage.

If you love giving the banks more of your money, then don't let Jason shop around to find the perfect mortgage for you. Visit him online at jason.mortgage. This entire show is brought to you by Sands & Associates, BC's first and trusted choice for debt help. With over 3,000 five-star reviews, visit them online at sans-trustee.com. To the Power West Industries hotline we go,

our next guest covered the ZNBA and the New York Knicks for the DraftKings Network Julian Edlo here on the Halford and Bruff show on Sportsnet 650. Come on in Julian. How are you? Doing well, how about you guys? Oh, we're good. Thanks for taking the time to do this. We appreciate it So we've been talking a lot about this Eastern Conference final on our show With a sense of nostalgia going back to the 90s and remembering, you know Spike Lee and Reggie Miller one of of my favorites, Rick Smith's, John Stark's all the great players in this Pacers, Nick's rivalry.

But that was 20 years ago, 20 some odd years ago, and we've got a whole new cast of characters going into this year's Eastern conference final. Now, obviously these two met last year in the second round to get a spot in the ECF. So tell us a little bit about this current matchup without all the nostalgia fueling it and why this is going to be a must watch series, Knicks and Pacers.

Yeah, I mean, everybody's gonna go back to the nineties just because of these teams played in the 2000 Eastern Conference Final, 99, 94, I believe as well. So, you know, what's different this time around is we're seeing obviously a big clash in style between these two teams and what's also different is just how unexpected this matchup was. The Pacers and Knicks are playing very well but just from an odds odds perspective, the idea that both the Celtics and Cavs would

go down in the second round was crazy to think about. So we've got two teams that in some ways feel like they belong, but they're playing with house money too with the upsets that they just pulled off. Both of them got huge comeback victories on the road throughout those series to be here. The Knicks obviously coming down from down 20 points in back-to-back games in Boston in those first two games. And I think that's getting most of the headlines. The Pacers had some insane comebacks in Cleveland to win that series in five games. So no lead is going to be safe in this series.

Both of these teams have proven that they can come back from, uh, from. Deficits that, that looked pretty grim. The Knicks want to want to muck this up. They want to play slow. They want to play at their own pace. Uh, and we, we saw that at times against Boston, the Pacers want to play slow. They want to play at their own pace. And we saw that at times against Boston. The Pacers want to speed things up. And that's how they not just come back in games,

but erase like nine seven-point deficits in the last minute of games with the way that they play. So it's going to be a really interesting series. The Knicks have a little bit of a chip on their shoulder with going up two games to nothing last year and then losing that series in seven. Now, a lot of that had to do with injuries that kind of piled up on the Knicks over the course of the series. Oji and Numbi couldn't play for a lot of it. Brunson broke his hand during game seven of that series.

So it's really going to come down to me. I'm, I'm curious to see what pace this game one is played at because it's going to tell us a lot. The Knicks want to grind it out. The Pacers want to speed it up. I know it's a three point shooting league now, but some of the shot attempts, three point shot attempt totals for the Celtics in some of those games were pretty ridiculous.

And the fact that they missed a bunch of them, was that just the Celtics in some of those games were pretty ridiculous and the fact that they missed a bunch of them was that just the Celtics missing shots or was there something that the Knicks were doing to defend the three? I'm gonna say it was more on the Celtics they got some pretty decent looks if you like to use those metrics of open versus wide open looks the bulk of the shots that the Celtics were getting were open to wide open. That means defenders three to six feet away from you or six feet or more away from you. They were getting pretty good looks. Um, and I haven't gone over the numbers specifically for last night's Western conference final game one,

but Minnesota had a pretty Boston-esque game one there. They shot 15 of 51 from downtown. It's a make or miss league. They missed the bench guys were awful in DeVincenzo and, uh, Alexander Walker, Nas Reed, those guys could not buy a bucket and, and, you know, okay. See one, the game taking 21 threes. They took 30 less threes, won the game by 20 whatever points. The Pacers have been red hot from three in this postseason.

And what the numbers tell us is that they're going to keep getting good looks against the Knicks. So if they stay hot, I think the Pacers can have a really good series here. The issue is that, you know, that's not something you can, you can count on. You can just go cold and have these 15 of, of 63 point nights, like the Celtics had in game one against the Knicks. And you're not going to be able to stay in that game. When Jason Tatum got hurt in the series, but then the Celtics blew the Knicks out in, in game five in Boston. Uh, what was, what was the mindset of the Knicks fan base at that point?

Of the Knicks fan base, I think they still felt pretty confident about that game six in their back pocket at home. Um, and I'm on the opposite side of it. I'm based out of Boston. I've spent time covering the Celtics. Um, I was at that game five actually, and the vibes were good from a Celtic standpoint of, all right, maybe there's a chance they can do this. Uh, but that, that game six that they had at home in their back pocket, that was their game seven, because of that, all that momentum and not that the Knicks wouldn't have had a good chance in the game seven but all that

momentum going back to Boston that pressure you don't want to deal with that and the Knicks came out and kind of put that to bed pretty early which is I think what you would like most about the Knicks is their their mindset you know they find ways to win they're not not reliant on one thing necessarily. And that can give the Pacers trouble. But I think that Indy can do a lot of things with their speed, their depth, that could give the Knicks trouble as well.

So I think this is one of the more difficult series to call, not just because of the contrasting styles, but also because it was just kind of so unexpected that we see these two teams here. Well, I got to ask you, what's the feeling in Boston right now? You lose to the Knicks and Jason Tatum is out for, I don't know, how long is he expected to miss next season? This was probably a team that was thinking, oh, we could have a dynasty and I guess they still could but definitely not as fun as last year.

Yeah, it's unbelievable how quickly things can change. You know at halftime of game four, it's a 14-point game or whatever it is. It's looking like this is gonna be 2-2 coming back to Boston for a game five. They can, you know, there'd be a double digit favorite in that game. They can take advantage here and get up three to two. And after the slow start, they're right back in this series, but they let go of a double digit second half lead for the third time in four games. A top five player in the NBA tears his Achilles in the last

three minutes of the game. And now here you are, you know, bowing out of the playoffs, the earliest you have since 2021. And you got a lot of things to deal with here because this team, you know, you've seen all the reports from the major NBA reporters that they're going to break up the core just because of finances. Really. You got new ownership coming in, six billion dollar deal, you're gonna have a five hundred million dollar payroll, you can't afford all that and I think the way to make that decision tough on ownership and management is by

winning again. Then they say all right maybe we do have to spend this money but you have your worst postseason that this group has really ever had. And now I think it makes the decision a lot easier on them to say, all right, we can save some money here. So I think the players like a Drew Holliday, Chris Staps, Porzinius are most likely on the way out. It brings into the conversation, is it worth paying Al Horford again if you don't see yourself as a contender?

Tatum has I think his initial response This is something he told his father from a report is that he he wants he Thinks he can be out like nine months or so. He could come back in like a February or March Maybe around the all-star break But I wouldn't count on any of that who knows where where the Celtics are then? Jalen Brown has a partially torn MCL. He might need surgery. Where does that go? So how quickly things changed in Boston for the Celtics is pretty remarkable.

I don't want to say it's completely over because there's a chance at the end of next season they could have a healthy Tatum and Brown or at least to start in 2026. Those two guys can be healthy. You still have Derek White, Peyton Pritchard to build around. You got to get, find some younger bigs and move away from poor Zangas and Horford. So there's a path to kind of keep this going, but the, just how quickly things changed in the second half of that game four of what, what it felt like would happen and what did happen was, was pretty remarkable.

We're speaking to Julian Edlow, DraftKings, NBA analyst here on the Haliford and Brough Show on Sportsnet 650. I do want to circle back to this Eastern Conference final for a sec here. So I think it's important that the Knicks are here right now for the NBA for a few different reasons. The league obviously took a lot of heat this year for the lack of entertainment value and how the regular season sort of played out. Salvaged a lot by the marquee trades that happened, but the Encore product, it took

a beating at times. The playoffs have been good, compelling, but a lot of the big names have fallen by the wayside and you look at the top two seeds in the Easter gone. Is it important for the NBA to have the energy and the atmosphere of Madison Square Garden and the New York Knicks in this Eastern Conference final? I think it's crucial because your other markets and not that they're not great basketball teams, but indie Minnesota and OKC are not the most compelling

markets. You're watching that game last night and they keep doing the, uh, the views from outside the arena and OKC for game one of the Western Conference final and it's like a zombie land like nobody was out I don't know maybe they were all home watching the game but yeah not the biggest market so I think New York not just in the Eastern Conference finals but going to the NBA finals for the first time in 26 years would be the league's preference if you gave Adam

Silver truth serum but you know I the Pacers are a really good team they just beat the Knicks last year they're an exciting team as well just from a basketball standpoint but yeah there's no denying that the league's preference and I think the preference of many, just for the juice that it would bring, would be to have the Knicks be in the NBA finals. Okay, one more before I let you go, and I don't wanna take away from this series at all,

but I am wondering if it's a little bit more hype than actual substance, because if you look at the betting futures for the NBA championship, Oklahoma City is a significant, significant favorite. Is it fair to maybe suggest that while it'll be cool to see the old school rivalry play out in the East, it doesn't necessarily matter who wins

because OKC is that big of a favorite? OKC is gonna be a huge favorite if they advance. And I felt Minnesota had a decent chance to deal that game one and really have a good chance in that series and the second half totally flipped in that game. OKC is the best team left and OKC was favored when Boston was in the field, when Cleveland was in the field, they were still favored over those teams. So to get this draw if there's a field, a final four that OKC could have asked for it's

probably something along these lines if if they want to get this team over the hump so I don't want to diminish the chances of whoever comes out of the East because again you know KC's got to do it they're a young team they haven't been here before but yeah assuming they get through Minnesota, Oklahoma City is going to be a pretty jarring favorite, whether it's New York or Indy. Julian, this was great, man. Thanks for taking the time to do this today. We really appreciate it. Enjoy game one and the rest of the series.

It should be a good one. Yeah. Anytime. Thanks for having me guys. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. That's Julian Edlow, DraftKings, NBA analyst here on the Haliford and Brough show on Sportsnet 650 I am very torn by Oklahoma City I flipped to do the game last night because you see those exhilarating shots of outside. Okc. No It's Oklahoma City is it's Oklahoma City. Yeah, it's not the one the one major

bustling thriving metropolis the one horse that a major bustling, thriving metropolis. The one horse that's there is like, go thunder. He loves it. Um, but I want to see SGA have success. I actually think it's remarkable how little attention he gets in the West of Canada. Now, you know, Steve Nash was from Victoria. Um, so obviously we had more interest in him, but I mean, this guy is probably going to be named

the MVP like Steve Nash was twice. However, he's going to have an opportunity to do what Steve Nash was never able to do. Win a title. Get past the conference final, nevermind win a title. Right. Steve Nash never got past the Western Conference finals. His greatest downfall as a title. But I know get past the conference final. Nevermind win a title. Right. Steve Nash never got past the Western Conference finals. His greatest downfall as a player.

But pains me to say this. But why I'm torn is it's Oklahoma City. I know. Like I wouldn't be okay. But if the Sonics had gone to like a real city, you know, and you know what else, but like I was, I was starting to get bitter last night. I'm like this stupid Oklahoma city crowd with their free t-shirts,

free t-shirts, man. That's, that's, that's a cheap, that's a cheap way to create a spectacle. You know, you don't see the Winnipeg jets fans getting free t-shirts. They all find, they find their own white t-shirts or jerseys or whatever. They go the extra mile. In Oklahoma City, it's like $100 to get into the arena because it's such a big deal in Oklahoma City. Everyone gets a free t-shirt.

With your $100. This is your version of the Halford Jersey take, by the way. You weren't a Sonics fan. You didn't get your team, your basketball team, ripped away from you to go to Oklahoma City. And by the way, if Oklahoma City ever stinks, there's going to be like 8,000 people in that arena. Yeah, I mean the crazy part, okay, so there's a couple things.

SGA should be on the Sonics. There's a... KD should have played more for the Sonics, right? One year out of the deal. It's infuriating still and it's been a long time. Okay, so there's a couple things to unpack there. Laddie was intrigued, dare I say, possibly appalled at the concept that

it's somehow cheating by a fan base. It's cheating. I would say appalled. It's just a funny hill to die on I well I will die on some hills when it comes to the Thunder but I've got time for this because as we do the way back machine the hell great crowd They must have gone through so much effort now They got a free t-shirt on their seat those Winnipeg Jets fans back in the original iteration of the Jets when they did the white

Out that was all That was crowd sourcing. I guess in the original iteration of the Jets when they did the whiteout. That was all that was crowd sourcing, I guess, in the earliest stages. They really had that crowd. Yeah, they had they had to go to the hardware store and go like, give me your painter suits. That's true. But they had to do it old school. They had to pick up the telephone and call one another. They had to, you know, put messages in the the Daily Bulletin or whatever newspaper

they've got in Winnipeg. Did that demonstrate? That's what it used to be a collective effort and There is something to be said for the modern area here. Just do it because it makes it easy AI Created the t-shirts too, but the overriding sentiment here is that everything for this fan base has been easy They inherited an amazing team now granted the first year in OKC stunk But then after that they went playoffs and then they went to the conference finals

and then they went to the finals. And that was the great team with like KD and Westbrook and all those. They had, if you look at the very short window that the Oklahoma City Thunder have been around, they have had Hall of Fame players, different deep playoff runs with different eras of players already. They've only been around since 2009, right?

They had their first iteration of this great team that ultimately like never won the prize, but got close. That got broken apart. Everyone moved on elsewhere. And now they've rebuilt in the span of like a 20 year or 15 year window where they've had two different eras making and they haven't made the finals yet with this team. And I know it.

But if you look at the betting odds and you look at Game 1, they got a pretty good shot of getting back to the finals. And it's got to kill diehard Sonic fans, although they're going to get their team back eventually. I will allow. I'm not going to be super upset if Oklahoma City wins and SGA is a hero and he wins NBA MVP. I mean, what an incredible story for a Canadian basketball player that you have to admit,

doesn't get talked a lot about in the West. This is the first. I don't know what the commentary is in Toronto, but he doesn't get- There was a certain network that led with NBA highlights last night as opposed to the Stanley Cup finals. Or sorry, the Stanley Cup playoffs. Whatever dud of a game that was. Right, and I look at it and I'm like,

now there's an interesting thought exercise for our listeners, is that with the Canucks long out of contention and with no Canadian teams in the Eastern Conference Finals it's obviously Florida and Carolina. Who should have started it? What? Wow everything's going on over there. What? What is the more intriguing story on a Tuesday night in the world of sports? Is it the Florida Panthers and the Carolina Hurricanes in game one of the Easter Conference final? Or is it a Canadian guy who's,

and by the way, they're gonna announce the MVP tonight. NBA MVP's gonna get announced. I think Russ' phone going off was more exciting than both of those games yesterday. Well, okay, there's another argument to be made. A lot of people will be like, neither. Right, like they don't wanna hear any of it. They just want, they want Canuckstock.

Like talk more about Adam Foote, talk about Elias Pedersen, right? And that don't wanna hear any of it. They just want, they want Canuckstock. Like talk more about Adam Foote, talk about Elias Pedersen, right? And that is- God forbid, Helfer. And that's the Western version of all of this, right? Is I don't care about either of these stories. Well, if it was Steve Nash and the Phoenix Suns. That would be different.

He's our local son. Yeah, yeah. But like, would people be complaining about it if it was Steve Nash and the Phoenix Suns leading the Florida Panthers, Carolina Hurricanes game? No, no. It's a guy from back in the... I mean, we didn't.

When Jamal Murray and the Denver Nuggets... Now a little bit different because Murray wasn't the driving force of that team. It was Jokic, but still. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, Ladi, do you talk to your buddies back in Hamilton at all? His SGA must be a big story, right? They went to high school with you. High school teammates, you are. Yeah, yeah, I mean laddie just do talk to your buddies back in Hamilton at all like his SGA must be a big story, right? They went to high school with you teammates. Yeah, he was only there for one year and he was a lot younger than I was but

Yeah, he's definitely a talking point for people on on that side of the country I mean that must be amazing and it must be amazing for a guy for that went to high school I mean, it was he born in Toronto went to high school in Hamilton. Yeah Laddie made the basketball team over him in grade nine, and that forced his career elsewhere. He left high school, and then he went under great things. He met pressure with pressure. We both went under great things.

We both went under great things. You embrace the hard in different ways. You're here, and he's going to win NBA MVP and probably go to the NBA finals. OK, it's time now for One to Watch brought to you by Delaney's OK Tire. Tonight's One to Watch is Miko Rand and when you're discussing the similarities and differences between the stars and oilers heading into this year's Western

conference final rematch, of course, there's one individual that jumps to the forefront of that conversation and that's Rand and that's because the Dallas stars have him now the highest score of the 2025 playoffs. He wasn't a part of last year's six game loss to the oilers and he has absolutely torched his opponents through two rounds so far. Nineteen points in thirteen games for Rand and which is more points than I will remind you than Connor McDavid who has 17 and Leon Drysidle who has 16. Rand was at his best at the tail end of the Colorado series in the beginning of the Jets

series over that four game stretch in those two series, eight goals along with the back to back hat tricks, which kind of vaulted him into first place in scoring. So when the lights are bright and the pressure is on, random has traditionally been a playoff performer. We'll see if he can do it again in game one of this Western conference final, which goes tonight to five o'clock puck drop our time. It's time to put on your Toyo tires,

whether you drive a car, light truck or van, Toyo tires are designed to perform in all kinds of conditions. Visit Delaney's OK Tire in Langley and Aldergrove. OK Tire Service, Repair and Tires. You're listening to the Halford & Brough Show on Sportsnet 650. Hey, it's Jamie Dodd.

And Thomas Strance. Get your daily dose of Canucks talk with us weekdays from 12 to two on Sportsnet 650. Or catch up on demand through your favorite podcast app. 732 on a Euro dance Wednesday here on the Haliford and Brough show on Sportsnet 650. Bring it up a little bit, laddie. rough show on Sportsnet 650. Bring it up a little bit, laddie. It's not bad, it's not bad. You're warming up to it. You're warming up to it.

It's like an off-brand jock cams. It's not bad. They're gonna be playing this in Dallas tonight. Yeah. Get fired up. Game one, Western Conference final tonight. Reminder, five o'clock puck drops. Stars, spoilers.

Former star at the Feminist Stanley Cup winner Craig Ludwig is going to join the show in just a moment here to preview the game tonight. Before we get to that, need to take care of some business. I need to tell you that the Haliford and Brough show is brought to you by Sands and Associates. Learn how a consumer proposal reduces your debt by up to 80%. With no more interest, visit them online at Sands-Trustee.com. We are in hour two of the program. Hour two is brought to you by Jason Hominoch at jason.mortgage.

If you love paying too much for your mortgage, then don't let Jason shop around to find the perfect mortgage for you. Visit them online at jason.mortgage. To the phone lines we go, the Power West Industries hotline. Craig Ludwig joins the program here on the Halford and Bref show on SportsNet 650. Good morning, Craig. How are you? Good morning, gentlemen. How are you doing? We're well. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

We appreciate it. I always do this when it's the eve of a series or a big game set, the scene and the stage and the vibe in Dallas right now as the stars go into a rematch in the Western Conference final against the team that beat them last year, the Edmonton Oilers, but with a slightly different roster, one key guy that they didn't have last year, Miko Randin going into tonight. How excited are the Stars and you guys at DLLS, the podcast, and of course, Dallas Stars fans going into tonight's game? Well, I could say that the fans are definitely excited around here and very confident. Yeah, that new guy that was added isn't a bad player.

He's not bad. He's not bad. Yeah, he's pulling his weight, I would say that. But no, I think everybody's super excited here and I think they understand and realize that, you know, this whole winning a championship is a process and they've gone through it, you know, for whole winning a championship is a process and, um, they've gone through it, you know, for the, for the last three, four years and they've knocked on the door.

And I think now they've got, uh, the right kind of chemistry going on. And I guess what I mean by that is, you know, they've got the young guys, they've got the older guys that are the Jamie Ben, the captain that's waiting to get that, his first Stanley Cup. And I think when there's a captain that plays the way that he does, you know, you understand it. We had one here in Darien Hatcher, you understand what those guys go through and what their jobs are and how tough they are.

And you know, you get to a certain point in your career and, and the younger guys and the guys in the middle of the road, they realize it and not only do they want to win it for themselves, but they want to win it for, for a guy like that. So, um, but what, what everybody probably doesn't understand yet is in my opinion, how good their opponent is this round. probably doesn't understand yet is in my opinion, how good their opponent is this round. I don't think they're the two or three man show, that I think we've been accustomed to seeing them.

As a matter of fact, before you guys called, I was on the NHL network, the channel, and watching a couple of recaps of the Edmonton Vegas stuff. And I got to the four minute and 50 second, almost five seconds into the highlights. You know, what do they have? Like 10 minute recaps. I did not see number 97 and one of those recaps.

When I'm like, what happened here? Where is he? Yeah. And it's just, but, and you see numbers and names out there that you probably don't usually see that much. And that's the reason that it's a, for me, it's a good thing for Edmonton Oilers fans, but, but for me and Dallas, it's a different team. It's a complete team. They play with an edge and they play, play tough in front of their both nets, I should say, and they don't just rely on two guys and really they,

and Dallas has got to find a way to score five on five. And that's been, you know, they, you know, special teams and go to 10 year, obviously important, but, um, besides Miko Renton and, um, you know, he, he's been, he's been the guy and it would be remiss without talking about Jake Odenger. I go back and look at all the things that happened the first two rounds here and a lot of it points right at Jake. He's been so good and so calm.

It should be a good long series is what we're hoping for. Has Rantanen been better than expected? Yeah, well, you know, and especially since he got here, because when he got here, sometimes fans just, you know, they hear, you know, they hear the numbers, they hear what a player has done and they don't understand there's a process and a feeling out process for the player.

He's been playing with a couple of pretty good players, you know, his last 10, 11 years. And I think it was, it may have been difficult for him, just, just the way he got to Dallas, you know, going through Carolina and all that kind of stuff that everybody's talked about. But, but now you got to find who, who is Nathan McKinnon in Dallas, who is Kale McCarr in Dallas and things like that. And they aren't here in Dallas.

There are similar guys that do similar things. So he started with one group of guys and then he ultimately landed with some country mates and Grandland and Hens and all of a sudden, and what happened I think is Pete gave him a chance to stay together. Pete DeBoer said, this is the group and it's paid off obviously. So I think that, but like I said, there's gotta be more guys that end up pulling

on the rope here. And because to me, I don't know if they were splitting those two guys up in Edmonton there and Dreisait the, to me, I don't know if they were splitting those two guys up in Edmonton there and dry sidles seem to be, um, I don't want to say on a shutdown pair, but, but, but it seemed like that line was doing a pretty good job against, uh, you know, whoever, you know, not like have them going out again. So, so again, it's, you can't just take that away and Dallas has changed some things up, but whether we know that they're gonna stay

with the lines that they had in practice and things like that, that's all part of playoff hockey. But they're trying to tinker with the other lines and they're trying to tinker with them a little bit because they've got to get some five on five scoring and it can't just be one or two guys. Who needs to step up? Who are you thinking about when you're talking about this?

Well, I think the line that we hoped that would be good when it got back together was Marchmont, Duchenne and Sagan. Tyler had, again, the hips and all that other kind of stuff. We've been talking about it for a long time until Tyler got back and then Marchmont went out for a little bit. They weren't in sync for the complete season. When they weren't, you know, they weren't in sync for the, for the incomplete season. Um, when they started out, they were good again. And then, you know, a couple injuries and some mishmash and things like that. And they didn't come back. So I look at them because when that line was playing and the, what's been the success for Dallas here is they've had four good lines and Pete has rolled his

lines and, and he's had success over the last couple of years doing that. Now there's changes and the others are new guys and things like that. But you know, finishing up last year, the number one, one line wasn't Robertson and Henson, you know, whatever. And they had the bell scaled there before Joe retired. That was a great line. Then that, then the Marchman line comes around Marchman, Duchenne and Tyler.

Well, that was really your line. So I think, I think in the, in the first couple series that they found a way to take Matt Duchenne out of the spot that he likes to be. I find that Duchenne likes to get down and in the offensive zone, get over to the right hand side of the ice, to the right wing side, and he can always pull up and he can make those plays on his forehead and he can make some unbelievable plays. And I found that especially the last series, but that they weren't

allowing him to get over there and it made a difference. Um, and so that chemistry hasn't been to what you would hope it would be, at least not yet. It's a good time. The good news is for Dallas is that they've been able to win two rounds with leading on two guys. And so, you know, they're, they're, they're trying some different things. And again, I don't always go off of what,

what any coach does in practices before you get around started, but you know, we'll, we'll see if they, they do some adjustments and how long, but, but Jason Robertson has got it, you know, he's a goal scorer. He's got it. He's got a score. Matt Shane's got to get some points on the board. it, you know, he's a goal scorer. He's got it. He's got a score Matt Shane's got to get some points on the board. You know, and the same with Marchman, Marchman, I think went through a little phase where he was, you know, the penalties were popping up for him. And, you know, and I think it was a, out of frustration. And I, I, I

understand it when things aren't going, you know, the way you want it to, you get a little frustrated. So, um, you know, they've got guys and it makes it difficult when you have two or three lines that, you know, are too, you get a little frustrated. So, um, you know, they've got guys and it makes it difficult when you have two or three lines that, you know, are dangerous, you know, how do you match up? And so, um, that, that to me, and, and I think though, the biggest thing for me is Dallas is going to have to find a way to get to the inside and the offensive zone, they've got to get to the front of the net that Edmonton does a real good job. And I think that's a couple of changes. They do a great job in front of their net. I mean, they've to get to the front of the net. Edmonton does a real good job. And I think that's a couple of changes.

They do a great job in front of their net. I mean, they've got five guys in front of their net. So you've got to be willing to go there. And Dallas has had the ability in the last year, year and a half of scoring goals off the Russian, you could make two, three passes and you can get the highlight goal. Well, teams have taken that away and they've, they've changed. They've adapted a little bit and they play a little

bit more and try to play a little bit more territorial game. And I think that takes away from the guys that I was just talking about, but you know, everybody's got to buy in. Okay. You're a former shutdown defenceman. Um, what do teams need to do to get to the inside?

Because we hear about that all the time. I heard, uh, Toronto sports radio the other day talking about how the Panthers were able to do to get to the inside because we hear about that all the time. I heard Toronto sports radio the other day talking about how the Panthers were able to get to the inside on the Leafs and the Leafs weren't able to do it against the Panthers. And we see the results from that. Um, it's easier said than done, isn't it? But how do you do it as a, as a, as a forward group?

You start from the inside first and you've got to get to the areas first before the opponent does. Cause once they're there, now you create that battle and then you ultimately end up battling with them and you push them right in front of your goaltender. And so I believe that, you know, and again, I speak mainly obviously from a defenseman standpoint is, and I try to teach our young defensemen that we work with here is that I've always me personally I played the game I had to play the game because I didn't have that kind of natural talent I played the game of tendencies like I would I would look

across and look at the player that you're playing against and I would know pretty much what their go to move was where they wanted to go to where they wanted to get to and I would know pretty much what their go-to move was, where they wanted to go to, where they wanted to get to. And I wanted to get there first and I wanted them to get to their second option. And I felt that that way I had a little bit of an advantage because I know that they want to ultimately get back to where they feel the most comfortable being able to score goals. So, um, you know, and I think Dallas has made some changes throughout the year and what's happened with Dallas, the way that they were playing.

And there's other teams that play the man on man or whatever you want to call it. And when the puck is, for instance, on the left-hand side of the ice, you know, you need five guys from the middle of the ice over to the left-hand side of the ice. Well, Dallas was getting spread out. And so, you know, there'd be times for their wingers and then they'd play where, you know, a defenseman picks a guy up in front of the net, they would update. And if that guy takes off and goes out to the top of the circles, they'd be out there and with them. And then, and I don't like that.

And I've been very clear about it this year. I don't, I don't, I'm not happy when I have a winger playing in front of the net against the big four because they didn't grow up playing that way. But, but again, it's worked for Dallas a lot because they take time and space away when teams enter the zone. So if you can get more bodies to the front of, and that's exactly what Edmonton is doing. I just, I just sent the message to our producer for the show tonight. I just said, Hey, listen, if I got a couple of clicks, I, you think you can get them together.

And it's really all that we're showing against, I would show against Vegas is how Edmonton has five guys inside that high danger area and Vegas guys are on the outside. And that's why, you know, again, Skinner was good, right? I mean, you got to give them credit, but they don't give up a lot of high slot chances, you know, that good area chance. And to me, that's a change that they've made. But now that means that, and again, I'm not telling the coaching staff anything that they don't know.

They know, and the players have probably been spoken to, that you have to fight to get space on this team. This isn't a team that's gonna be easy to play against. That's why I say their identity, to me, has changed a little bit, where they're more playoff ready. There's one way you play in the regular season, and there's another way you play in the regular season, there's another way you play in the playoffs to be able to get to the end of the road.

The Canucks just introduced their new head coach Adam Foote, who played a similar role to you in the NHL. Pretty big, tough guy. And he was talking about how he defended and how he knew the tendencies of the players. And he knew their A game and their B game. And he said, if they're going to beat me, it's going to be with their C game because I know their A game and their B game. And it just made me think about all the work that goes

into scouting the other team and learning their tendencies. How did you learn the tendencies of these players? Was it just from playing against them or was there a lot of video work put in as well? There was video, but not like today. For God sakes, every time you see a player come back to the bench, they're not even watching the game anymore. They're looking at their iPad. I'm not a fan of that, but it doesn't really matter.

You know what I mean? If that's what it takes for the players, and I completely understand it. But for me personally, and it's what I tell our guys and I'd ask our guys all the times, you know, you're going to get the juniors and stuff like that and you're going to see the lineup on the board. You're going to see the opponents. I mean, they got the lines up there and I mean, that's been around, you know, since God was a cowboy. So everybody knows that's what happens. But and I'd ask him, so what, what are you looking at? What do you see? Why do you look at that board? Where are the course put it up

there? And you know, that's, you know at? What do you see? Why do you look at that board? What are the courts to put it up there? And you know, that's, you know, if we're gonna play against this group and that's who they're playing with and this is their winger and stuff like that. And I said, no, you're not wrong. But then I'd go back. I said, I went over every player.

I didn't relook at the defenseman, obviously, but I looked at every player and I went through them before the game. And in my head, I would play over, what did Brett Hull do? What did Joe Neuendijk do? Thank God they eventually came and played with us. But, but those kinds of players, I went through with my mind and I knew were

certain guys with, I knew what Fedorov wanted to do. I knew that when Fedorov, if I, I'm not a guy that can hold a gap, like, you know, some of the, you know, I mean, everybody knew that. So, so I would give up the blue line, but I wasn't going to get beat to the net. So what I, and I knew just for instance, what's better off, I knew that when he got just to the top of the circle below the circle and he did, he wasn't able to get to the middle of the ice, he would turn to the wall, he would curl up the wall and look for guys late.

Well, in our system with, you know, with Dallas and Montreal, we always had a third guy coming back and they, we were very religious about that. So I knew all of a sudden I had helped. And then, and then you would be able to shut that kind of guy down. Now, and there was actually one time Rick Wilson, who was our D coach, who I had in college at one time too, so Wilson's known me forever. And it was about just on our side of center. I said it was the Federeraut thing and I was backing up right in front of the bench and I heard Wilson yell from the bench, stand him up, stand him up. And I just looked at him as I was skating backwards, the Federer off cam, I looked at him and I said, yeah, right.

And then we got in and we ultimately get back. He spins around at the top of the circle and one of our guys comes and closes them down. I get back on the bench and I said, well, seriously, you thought I was going to stand him up and he goes, yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. Sorry about that. Sorry about that. Um, yeah, yeah. So.

How do you play a guy like McDavid? I mean, I, I don't know if you've ever seen a guy skate like McDavid does. I don't think I have, but I haven't had to play against these guys. Yeah, me personally, I'd be changing as soon as I'd come out there, I'd be off the ice. So, you know, again, you kind of know who you're playing against, but again, the same thing.

I, I, I watch what Connor does. And when he comes into the middle of the ice, and when he comes into the zone, he starts getting below the top of the circle. And you know the moves, you know where he wants to get to. He wants to just like, oh, good, they want to get to the middle. I don't let him, number one, I don't let him get to the middle. And I will back up. I mean, I'll be in the, I would be, I'm just talking about, I'd be in his, in the goalies in his face. But what I see is when he can't get to the net, even when he gets below the hash marks and he can't cut in, he'll go behind the net.

That's for me, what I've done is I just made sure that all four other players on my team are back in the zone. Now that is probably not the way to do it. I would definitely not do it the way that LA was doing it. In my opinion, the way that LA plays is there they were playing Not not to lose the game and they were just sitting back I thought in in their neutral zone and sometimes they have four guys on the other side of the center line and The well, I don't care what player had it

They were playing that way against all of them But they were playing and they were waiting in their zone. Like, so I think what has to happen, and I would assume Dallas will do this is that they're going to make sure when the puck is in the offensive zone for the stars, they're going to have guys up and they're going to end, you're going to make it difficult getting through the neutral zone and you can't let a guy like that or any of their good players, any good players, you can't let them enter the zone, you know, without some resistance.

So I think they're going to try to, they're going to try to stay up as much as they can in the neutral zone and then sort it out from there. The toughest thing I think about McDavid, and I'd love to get your opinion on this and how you stop it is that, you know, you're trying to stop him from getting to the inside of the ice and you're focused on him.

And then he, he makes the cross seam pass to Dry Cytl who's like on the goal line. And then he, he makes the cross seam pass to dry sidle who's like on the goal line. And then he rips home the one timer. He was like, well, what do we do about that? We're supposed to shut down the guy that's standing on the goal line? Well, yeah, you are because that's not my responsibility. If I, if I've gotten, if I'm on the side of McDavid,

I can't worry about two other people. And I believe, you know, when there are two on ones, then my philosophy is, and I, and I get edgy about the way I see some defensemen play two on ones, is when that forward, you got a two on one and the puck carrier ends up getting across, you know, below the top of the circle and you're starting to get between the,

you know, the hash marks in the top of the circle, I start to fade off to the far post. I make sure that my goaltender has the confidence that he can come out and cut that angle down and knowing that the pass to the far post. I make sure that my goaltender has the confidence that he can come out and cut that, that angle down and knowing that the passes and getting across. Now you don't give a guy too much room, especially on his offside. He comes in and his offside, the shooting angles a little bit better. So you've got to play that a little bit differently, but I watch goaltenders

and I can see goaltenders. For instance, if somebody enters on the left-hand side of the goal time goaltender and I watched the goaltenders left leg,, if somebody enters on the left-hand side of the goal time, goaltender, and I watched the goaltenders left leg that's up against the post, just when I watch goalies playing, you know, that two on one. And when I see a goaltender loading up on that left leg, it tells me he's getting ready to move across for that pass across the ice, which tells me he doesn't trust the defenseman. He doesn't trust that he's going to do his job and say, you're not

getting the puck across. And again, the great players are going to make those He doesn't trust that he's going to do his job and say, you're not getting the puck across. And again, the great players are going to make those passes at that time. It's going to happen, but, but that guy has to be picked up. And again, if it's a two on one and I won't say this on the radio, but if there's a number of rushes, two on ones or three on twos, somebody's made a mistake. And so now your job is to buy time to allow people to get back into the play. So the longer I can keep somebody on the outside and, and, and, and anytime you see my, my thing is, is when I see a forward and he's skating, like,

and he stops his feet, he doesn't like where I am. He doesn't like it because, because he wants me to come to them. And then he wants to jump to the middle. But the thing is, is when he stops his feet, he's still moving and he's moving down to a lesser high danger shooting area because he's taking himself away from a certain shooting angle and he keeps moving. But it's also allowing, like if it's a two on one,

my partner probably made a mistake somewhere or he was up in the rush and then we're supposed to have a third guy back. Well, I'm trying to buy a little bit time for that guy to get back down into the low slot. And I want you to come right straight into the slot. And if I'm the left fenceman, you're gonna get off to the right-hand side of me.

And you're gonna help me with that passing lane across there. If you can catch the puck carry, then I'll let you know. You go to them and I'll slide across a little bit more. So again, I think it's communication. It all happens in practices, right? I mean, with Hitchcock and when we were in Montreal, especially with Hitch here in Dallas, I mean, we did it every day.

We did the same three drills every day, every single day. And he would always go up to the board and start drawing them. And he drew with his left hand, a crooked hand, and we'd sit there and be going, what the hell is he drawing, what drill is this? And all of a sudden, 10 seconds later, we go, oh, Hitch, it's the neutral zone four-check. Just say that.

We don't need, you screw us up with the drawing. I begged them, I begged Hitch all the time. Just give your drills a name. Everybody knows the Canada Cup warm-up drill and players just go to that. They know the drill. Just give every drill a name and we don't have to waste time, you know, with coaches trying to do too much on the board. Was, was Brett Hull dialed in while Hitch was at the board? Holly was never dialed. The only time Holly was dialed in is when he had the puck on a stick below the top of the circle and that's why he's got over 700 goals. So Holly, you have to give Brett Hall a ton of credit because as much as Holly wanted to be Holly, when he got around our group and again you got to remember you've got you know you got Mike Keene and you got Joan

Neuendijk and you got not Mo so much, but you got carbo. And so there was a lot of us that came from Montreal and came from places where they had one and there was a lot of structure and, and how we did, how we bought in as much as he needed to, and as much as he wanted to. But you got to give him credit because when he first got here, it was Brett Hall. And again, it was, you know, it's I think anytime you get those kinds of players and there's a reason to get them. I mean, you know,

I know what happened that in the summer I got a call from Bob and, um, you know, the question was, so to speak, how do you, if we get a certain player, how can our room handle them? And I love it when GMs do that. I don't know how much general managers trust players and, you know, talking to them and things like that. I think you need one and one that you can trust and trust goes back and forth that it stays between the two of them. You don't, you know, you're not going to share it with your teammates.

But when the question was, I said, not even worry about it. I don't even know who it is, but I'm not even concerned. Could care less. We have a strong enough room that whatever kind of player you bring in here, we're going to be able to, in're going to be able to In our way be able to give them to buy in and we don't need a hundred percent because you don't want to take like Players like Holly you don't want to take that away from them That's what they do but but there's a little bit of structure that you can help us out with Craig This was so much fun. There's so much more that I wanted to get into hopefully we can have you on the show again

I wanted to talk about I mean we can have you on the show again. I wanted to talk about, I mean, we're talking to a rare breed one right now. It's someone who's actually won a Stanley Cup in Canada in 1986. I don't know, they don't make those guys anymore. So I'd love to talk to you about the pressure of playing in Canada and how it might be different now and maybe that's part of the reason why we

haven't had a Stanley Cup champ in Canada since 1993. I want to talk about your shin pads and shot blocking and how maybe some of the players should be using those, but we'll have to save that for another day. If you're willing to come on our show again. Oh, no, I, I'd welcome at any time. Yeah. It's been a pleasure. And I tell you what, with Adam foot, I think generally players take on the

personality of their coach and I think it's going to be a good thing. And the same thing with Rick Tuckett. And he, you know, the same thing's going to happen. I mean, you watch her coaches and so I think what he'll do a great job there. Thanks, Craig. This was great. Enjoy the game tonight. Okay. Thanks guys. Thank you. That's Craig Ludwig, former NHL or, uh, Dallas stars analyst, D L L S sports. If you want to check them out, they do a pregame and a post game and a podcast along with Owen Newkirk, who we've had on the show

as well out of Dallas. That was awesome. I love when you just go to an NHLer and be like, tell me about this former player. Now this one, give me a story on this guy. They just rattle off these stories. Remember some guys. I could do that honestly for 10 hours.

I could just, it never gets boring. I think it's also just like, what amazes me about the professional athletes is not only their physical abilities out on the ice, it's how they're thinking the game too, at the same time. And they kind of take it for granted. They're like, oh yeah, I know this guy does this and this guy does that. And it's like, most of us, when we're out there, we're just worried about,

you know, like, okay, how am I going to skate? Right? You're not, you're not thinking at that next level. Do you know what I mean? Like. Please don't embarrass yourself. Yeah. That's what I'm thinking.

Well, you're, yeah, it's, it's just that there's, there's so much more and it's funny cause listening to Craig Ludwig and listening to Adam Foote when he's talking about shutting down players and their A game and their B game and their C game, you know, I'm like, I'm out playing, I'm like, I don't know your A game. Like, I'm just trying not to fall here, right? So anyway, it's fascinating. You got one game, it's a Zed game.

Yeah, the ability to mesh your physical abilities and the mental aspects is really incredible. iMac is going to join us next on the Alfred and the Brush Show on Sportsnet 650.