Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Ye and White Lives Matter, Plus Soledad O’Brien on ‘The Rebellious Life of Mrs. Rosa Parks’

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

Van and Rachel react to Kanye West wearing a White Lives Matter shirt (17:38), and Tory Lanez is unapologetic but back (36:31). Plus, Emmy and Peabody award-winning broadcast journalist Soledad O’Brien joins to discuss her documentary, ‘The Rebellious Life of Mrs. Rosa Parks’ (52:05), and the current state of journalism (1:06:00). Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Soledad O’Brien Producer: Donnie Beacham Jr. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? I learned is on. It's I, Van Lathen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Oh, damn it. How was your, uh, you got pajamas on? Everybody keeps saying that to me today.

This is a fit. I mean, and I didn't say it's bad. You know what I mean? Like, I got buttons all the way down. It's matching, so it gives this appearance that it's like pajamas. Pajama-e? It's, um, it's a set. But look, what's wrong with?

Are you, do you get mad that people say it's pajamas? No, but I, you know, when I bought it, it didn't cross my mind, but it's crossing everyone else's. It's crossing everyone else's mind. It's pajamas. Yeah. What material is it made out of? I don't know. I'm not good.

Silk? This, but the pants are not. Who makes it? Who makes this? Alice and Olivia. What is that? A store. It's Allison Olivia?

Mm-hmm. It's like a store where you, it's expensive. Women's clothing. Women's clothing. Is it like brick and mortar or is it online? Brick and mortar, both. So it's both. I don't know some designers.

I mean, this isn't like Rodeo Drive, but, you know, they've got great women's clothes. Does that go for about 500, 500? Five? What's it? Five? Six? Maybe. Is it, it's north of six?

No, no, no. It's not north of six. But it's a set. I'm trying to remember what the top and the pants got. So 300. 300, the top, 300 bottom? It's probably between five and six. It's six.

I'll look it up. Donnie, go to Allison, Olivier. This is old. Already doing it. Johnny, come on, Donnie. Donnie, go to Allison Olivier and see how much Rachel paying for her pajamas. This is, it's probably on sale. This is old.

You know who I didn't know was making clothes? Who? Victoria Beckham. And why did you find that out? Were you shopping for someone? So look, so check this out. There is this great guy that Kaliko watches. His name is Hot Lamond.

Have you seen this guy? No. Hot Lamonde on YouTube. This guy is my... Hot or hot? Hot? Hot, like hot? Oh, okay.

Like hot, couture. This guy is my friend. I have never heard anyone talk about fashion and be as fucking compelling as this guy. From Hot Lamonde is on to, he sits down and he talks and it's him, his face, and then there's things that are running behind him, different pictures of people that went to different stuff. He likes probably about 5% of what he sees. But it's so constructive. Speaking of constructive, we have Soledad O'Brien, the amazing Soledat O'Brien on the show later.

We're going to talk to her about the documentary she's executive producing, the rebellious of Rosa Parks. her show, matter of fact, that is kicking CNN's ass, syndicated show and the state of the news right now. So that's later. But Haute Lamonde is the name of it. Have you see him? I'm looking at it, but it's wild to me that people have these huge, this huge presence on YouTube,

but I've never heard them before. He's the fucking man. Well, I'm gonna go down a dark hole later about him. So Caligal's watching it. Sometimes we'll be driving somewhere and I'll be like, yo, put my homie on. I don't know nothing that they're, talking about. Like put my homie on, put them on. And then, like, he says wearing Victoria

Beckham, I'm like, Victoria Beckham. Like, she makes clothes. And they're good. And then I get treated like a moron. I get treated moronical. I get treated colica. Oh, you didn't, yeah, for years now. Like, cool, whatever. Who plays off guard for the trailblazers? That's, yeah, nuts. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, Victoria Beck had been making, been making clothes. Nice. Who is the one? winning this coach in NFL history. See, but I get, but I can't do it. But I get treated when I don't know fashion because she is a fashion expert.

She is. And then like... She helps me. Yeah, she watches Hart-Lamong guy. You should watch him. He's great. You know, here's the thing. I'm not, I'm in the fashion, but I'm not like a fashionista.

I need help. I need the help of a Kalika to help me with my closet and what to have and what to wear. Like this, what I'm wearing now. is mannequin shopping. I needed an outfit quick. I went into the store. I got it. It fit great. And kept it moving. So I don't know a hot Lamont. A hot. Hot. Hot. Hot. How you say that, Donnie? How you say that, Donnie. How hot. How you had to write the first name. Hot. Hot. Donnie. Yeah. Yeah, you keep over there Googling for this outfit. I'm struggling. Van, did you have a good weekend? I was on the road, man

I'm getting sick of being on the road, man. But you have a beat right now, right? Like, you're not going to be traveling for a minute. Oh, no, you got a show to promote. I got a, yeah, man. Like, I got a, I got a, like, a hot la mode, is it? Hot la mode. I said, Mond.

It's okay, I found them. The man. I don't, I don't like, I don't, you know, I was in D.C. You know, I was in Atlanta. and I love those cities. Actually, I'm going to be honest that you, D.C. is slightly better than Atlanta to me. Not be real.

Would you like to say why? It's D.C. better, man. Atlanta great. Two different vibes. D.C. is good, man. I fuck with D.C. so heavy, man. Like, D.C. is great. D.C., the people in D.C. are still kind of friendly.

You know what I mean? I mean, don't get me wrong. You'll get your ass lit the fuck up in D.C. You'll get clean fucked over All right But DC is just great man Like especially CBC weekend You walk around CBC weekend

Of course It's like Dressed up black people everywhere The thing I let me tell you what I love About places I love black people Shout out to Revolt I go to Revolt

Right I guess hosts a Revolt black news last week Shout out to Monique Shout out to Ali Shout out to all the people over a revolt, right? Shout to everyone, man. I go over, I'm in the Revolt Black News office.

I'm getting ready. I'm doing my thing. I'm trying to squeeze into my clothes. And I just hear a black lady singing a song. You know that you remind me. I'm like, Jesus Christ, where the nigger's at?

Like being around black people. It's an all black space. I don't know who. they're going to get to go down there and be the permanent host of Revolt Black News, but that's such a good job. Just go around there and talk about black, the blackety

black. Who was hosting it? They've had Ebony K. Williams. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. M.K. Williams is there for a lot of people down there. But shout out to Kennedy. Shout out to Rochelle Richie. Shout to Brie Harmon who doesn't work at Revolt anymore, but Kennedy. Yeah, shout out to all of the people

down there making it happen, man. It was fucking great, man. Just like black. Two black-ass cities. Black, black, black. Black. What I love about D.C. is you can go into a bar and they're like, I'm an attorney.

I'm a lobbyist. I'm a politician. That's impressive to me. You know what I mean? Like I'm in a bar. Black people. And they're talking, and you know, like everybody's doing something.

Everybody's a mover and a shaker. That's what I like about D.C. I mean, I don't, you know, I like regular niggas. So I don't have to, I don't like, I don't like, go somewhere. I love to see people doing their thing. Doctor, lawyer type of situation. I had just never, I had never seen that until I went to D.C. I had never seen that.

You had never seen successful Negroes, blacks. Everywhere I turn. That's true. Because like in Atlanta, because they're because, well, see, in Baton Rouge is a mix because it's a very black. See, Baton is 55% black. I didn't know that. Yeah. Okay.

So you go to Batar Rouge and sometimes. you see it, but you don't see it like you see it in Atlanta and D.C. Atlanta and D.C., Atlanta, you could be, you could live out both of your dreams, though. Atlanta, you could be a doctor and a scammer. You know what I mean? Like, in D.C., you probably, you're politics, so you might be scamming on accident, right? But in Atlanta, you could be a doctor, but you could, like, scam P.P. loans on, like, a Sunday. You know, like, you get the bus of both worlds.

You get a nigger and you go to Atlanta, like, yo, man, I fuck with you, man. And a dude is iced out all of this stuff going crazy. I'm like, well, what do you do for a living, bro? Yeah, I'm a pediatrician. Oh, shit, nigga. That's Houston, too. I thought you were signed to QC. You know, like, I don't know what I'm saying?

Like, I don't, like, it's just Atlanta different. You see guys, they got, you know, they got their jersey number, like, in the, like, number 32 around in their name. I'm like, oh shit, bro, you play for the Hawks? No, man, I work in transportation. This is my high school shit. I'm like, what the fuck? You know?

I love that. Well, see, then you did have, you had a good time. You're just ready to be home. I was just ready to be home. I get it. Listen, I get it. Love D.C. and Atlanta. Love those places.

But you have to understand what happens at the house. Bozeman. Bozeman, the dog, you know, it's just, the dog is so loving. He's been coming over and kicking it with us. Yeah, I heard, I heard that, I heard that there was some static. With who? Bozeman and Brownie. I heard Brownie try to bite Bozman.

He did. He tried to bite his hills. He tried to bite his hills. But you got to understand, he's a little guy. He's protective. He didn't know Bozman like that. But Bozman and Copper are like thickest thieves. Yeah, they, they, they.

cool. Yeah. It's like House of the Dragon. Did you see House of the Dragon yesterday? Oh my gosh. I'm so into the show. You have to understand. You have to understand. I binged Game of Thrones all the way up until the last season. Last season, I watched in real time. So this is the first time I am experiencing this franchise every single week. Brian and I are so into it. Peak White Mess. Peak White Mess. I love it. Love it. It's so good. I will say, and so that, that reminds when the kids were fighting, you know, that reminded me kind of Bozeman and Browning. Who was who? Who got their eye? Oh, spoiler

alert. Who got their eyes sliced? You can't do that. Okay. Are you, are you, Renairis or are you, or Allison? Look. Which one or who's fighting for who? I would say really, everybody all fucked up. So it don't matter who you. Like, you could be Renair's. I'll be

the greens and the blacks. I'll be the greens. You can be the blacks. Everybody's all fucked up. But listen, the spoiler thing you just did, you can't, working in the fandom space, there's so many things that I get my ass kicked on the internet about all the time, right? It comes to the territory. But nothing is more serious than spoilers. I don't come from a generation where people care about spoilers.

Like with me, I remember my home boy Ryan went, shout out Ryan fucking Davenport. My home boy Ryan went to see Independence Day with some ladies. and I couldn't go because I had baseball, pissed off that they went. But then I was like, fuck, tell me about the movie. And he told me the entire movie. And you were fine. I was cool. Still went to see it.

It did nothing but make me more hyped to go see Independence Day. He told me the beginning, the middle, and the end of Independence Day. And I still went and saw the movie. Now, if you even tell people that Will Smith is in Independence Day, I don't want to spoil. So you can't, you can't do, Donnie, you got to bleat that. I say no. The rule is as long as you say spoiler alert, then you're free to say anything after that. It's not.

I thought that that was the case. The spoiler thing, the show just came out yesterday. Like, don't press play. It's mad people that still haven't been able to watch it. They're going to be all on our asses, Rachel. But this is my thing. You need to stay off the internet. You have to stay off Twitter.

I agree with you. TikTok. If you haven't seen a show, it's fair. Like if you're asking for it. You're asking for it if you log on. It's going to be there. It's trending. Yeah.

This is House of the Dragon. I have a 48 hour rule. If you're a big fan, you got 48 hours. Or you're not a real fan. Yeah, or you're not a real fan. Now, hold on. If the movies in theaters, that could be different. Because maybe you can't get there.

No, you know, man. You can get childcare. Right. But if it's on TV, 48 hours, you got to be able to have seen it. Yeah. We went out of town of Palm Spring this weekend. Still came home. You went to Palm Springs?

We did. We went for a wedding. It was good to get away. You liked that. Yeah. What was the weather like in Palm Springs? Hot. The wedding was at 4.30.

Hot outside. White, right? White people. Yeah, because only they would do something like that. Well, my friend said they were, he goes, were they straight? He's like, only the straights would do that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Only like you have to be white and straight to have a wedding at slavery times. Like 430 in the heat. Cooking. That's slavery time. Cooking. You know what I'm saying? And we were dressed in all black.

It was like a black attire. Everybody had to wear black. Oh, they're fucking with y'all. I'm really thinking about that. They're fucking with y'all. They're like, oh, shit, while we're going to watch the nigger. Sweat. You were and Brian sitting back there drinking Gatorade while people getting married up there trying to stay hydrated.

I was lit. Oh, you got lit up? You drank a lot? I lit. It was the heat and the tequila. That's such a good time. So you're drinking again, huh? When did I say?

stop. Donnie. Did I stop? Donnie. Remember that show, intervention? Stop. I do. No, Donnie, enough.

Remember that show intervention you're saying. Enough. That's why you're still over there looking for this outfit. Donnie, you got, see, Donnie, bro. Enough. This dog, find the outfit, dog. Shout out how to holl them out. I actually stopped.

It was hard to find. I feel like a. I was taking up too much of my time. Donnie said, I said, fuck that shit. I got other stuff to do. All right. Big deal of the day. Now, I'm going to be honest with you guys.

There is something that everybody's talking about. We have a different big deal with the day here. But I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to have a come-to-Jesus moment with the audience and with Rachel and Donnie. There's been a narrative on this podcast. It's been spun about me. And this narrative has made it difficult for us. to lead with what we should actually be leading with because when we leave with it,

it was brought up by Rachel in the chat and I said, no, we can't do it because Rachel has spent the better part of a year and a half, spinning the narrative. See how you put it on me? See how he flipped the script? Has Rachel not spun a narrative that I'm obsessed with Kanye West? I don't know what you're talking about. Exactly. That's fine.

He knows. That's what you know what it is. We had a big, I can't remember what it was and we had to talk about Kanye, right? And then you said, I'm done. I'm never going to talk about it. So you brought this on yourself. And then Kanye kept fucking up. And so we had to keep talking about it.

And so then it just became this joke of, wait a minute, I thought we weren't supposed to talk about it. But when you do something like you just did this weekend, it has to be talked about. And listen, anybody who's going to come in Van and say Van is obsessed with Kanye, come in me. Okay? I'll take it. Where's Chelsea at? Chelsea. Come in me.

Chelsea, are you back there? Can Chelsea be heard on the podcast right now? Come in the room, Chelsea. Chelsea's dad is a legend. And we discussed this? It's a black crescentine on Boba Fitt. Yes, Chelsea, come on, walk into the, come on, Chelsea. Chelsea, it's like, come on, man.

Come on. Chelsea, introduce yourself to the people. I'm Chelsea. Stark Jones Title Title Podcast Manager Podcast Manager

At the ringer It's black over here Being that you're the podcast manager Should we lead the show With Kanye Wes Yeah

Yeah Yeah I was surprised It wasn't the big deal of the day Wow Somebody Vitoed it

I vetoed it Because of narratives Chelsea Everybody Chelsea is the podcast manager She is the boss So she says we have to discuss Kanye West.

We're going to do that on the other side of this break. You're big deal of the day. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt.

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Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiatoradio.com. All right. You're a big deal of the day. Kanye West seen at the Balenciaga show in Paris with Candace Owens, wearing shirts that say, White Lives Matter. That is all you really need to know for an intro. Counselor, Lindsay, you have the floor. I'm going to throw it back at you.

Who? Because obviously when you wear, when you're Kanye West and you do anything, it's going to garner our attention. Big attention. It's going to be trending. We haven't seen that. I should say it wasn't the Belenciaga show. It was the Yeezy Season 9 presentation in Paris. Oh, so it was his own show.

It was his own show. So I'll go back into this. It wasn't Beliata show. I saw him in the Balenciaga. He looked like a transformer. But far be it from me. to comment on fashion when it comes to him I'll be wearing this shit every day.

But it was the Yeezy Season 9 show where he wore this. So I should say. Sorry about that. Yes. So anything Kanye West does is going to trend, especially because we haven't seen him as much. He's just now kind of coming back full force into media attention.

But when Kanye West does something controversial, people are very quick to make excuses for it. And this is where I'm going to throw it back at you. Sure. People always want to say, oh, that's just Kanye West genius. Yeah. That's just Kanye West being smarter than all y'all.

He's got intention and purpose behind what he's doing and is bigger than just this. It's bigger than just the White Lives Matter shirt. It's bigger than Candace Owen standing next to him wearing a white shirt with black riding. He's wearing the black shirt with white riding. They're, you know, side by side smiling at each other. Obviously, you have Candice Owens there. You're making a statement as well. For you, do you look at this as something that is genius slash maybe performative?

And that's just Kanye West. Or do you look at this as something that is extremely detrimental to the movement and the culture? So I don't think that there is a movement. Okay. I think there was a movement. and now we're in between movements. I've talked about that. So let's run down a list of things here.

So Kanye West wears a White Lives Matter shirt. You have people that say white lives do matter. Obviously, Homeboy of Mind said that on Instagram, you heard me. Yeah, who are you talking? My man Jack. Yeah, my man Jack. Jack doesn't care. Me and Jack were talking about that when I got here.

So there's two parts. Is he being for, isn't what he's saying? True white lives do matter. Boom. The second part is he's just trolling. He's just using this as performance art. He's just using this to draw attention to himself. Okay.

So let's say that that's true. Okay. Let's say that Kanye West doesn't really mean what he's saying and he's using it to draw attention to either the Yee Zee's season 9 launch or himself in general. Let's say that that's true. He doesn't really believe that in his heart. Okay.

If that is the case, that's 150,000 times worse. So I just want people to understand what that would be saying. If in fact, Kanye West, because let's look at what the white lives matter situation means. And I talked about this on Instagram, but I'll say it again. No one is saying that the average white life or the white life or a white life of a white person, and doesn't matter. Right. No one is saying that.

Right. Nobody is saying that whatsoever. Black Lives Matter has nothing to do with the individual life. Black Lives Matter, not the organization that you guys can have your own critiques and your own opinions about. The slogan Black Lives Matter is an affirmation. It's a revolutionary affirmation in terms of our station here in America. It's saying, hey, we matter.

You have to consider us before you kill us. You have to consider us before you legislate to us. You have to consider us before you speak about us. You have to consider us before you portray us. We matter. And the history in the United States is obviously at cross purposes to that. We've had no control over really how we were legislated to. We've had no control over the environmental conditions in our community.

We have had no control over our lives or the pursuit of our happiness. And we've had no control over our ewe. economic conditions. Like, we haven't mattered because we've always, always been dictated to, right? So Black Lives Matter to me wasn't it just about police killings? It was about, like, establishing the fact that we have a voice and we have power and we have agency in this country as well. So when people say White Lives Matter, what they're attempting to do, in my opinion,

is to re-center white people in that conversation. is to say that you don't get to have this conversation with America. You don't get to have this dialogue with America because you can't have a dialogue in America, black people that doesn't involve you navigating around white people. You can't talk to someone, right? We have to talk around somebody always. Black Lives Matter might not even be like a statement

that's a conversation between black people and white America. That's a conversation that could be between black people, people and other black people to make them believe that we matter, to instill pride that we matter and make you go to the mattresses about the fact that you do matter. So when you say white lives matter, what you're attempting to do is essentially white supremacist because you're depowering this other message. You're saying, hey, it's not about you. It's about us. And this is not even all lives matter. So let's make a distinction here. All lives matter is subversives in the same way, but at least it's saying, hey, you matter and we matter too. It's subversive

in the same way. Don't get me wrong, but this is white lives matter. This is the flip side to Black Lives Matter. This is, forget about you guys. You're not a part of the conversation we're having right now. We want to move this conversation back to white people. My point, even when I was talking about the Bill Marthe, is whenever black people have had the conversation about themselves. America has always found a way to re-center white people, to re-center the people in their country, in their society, who they feel actually do matter. Right. All right. So, that's the shirt that Kanye West is wearing. Let's say he's wearing that shirt and some Kaufman-esque sort of expression of weirdness that doesn't really have to do with the sentiment

that has to do with making people pay attention to him and being. subversive and, you know, being avant-garde. What you're doing is you're fucking with black people's emotions. You're hurting black people for your entertainment and attention. There's nothing whiter than that.

That's the peak of whiteness. Manipulating the emotions of black people. Manipulating their fear. Yeah. Manipulating their rage. Manipulating their animus. Manipulating them for the sole fact of making people pay attention to you

either to sell somebody something, which all of this is in the name of commerce is at a easy season nine event, right? Either to sell them something or to distract them away from something. It's literally the whitest thing you can do and is emblematic

of the emotional and media terrorism that black people have endured since they've been in this country. So I would actually have preferred that he actually meant this. So people, people who say he doesn't mean this, I'd actually prefer that he does. I'd actually prefer that he's like, hey, I feel like we live in the world where white people aren't getting enough

attention. Because if that's the case, he's just stupid. But if he's doing this purposefully to antagonize purposefully for attention purposefully to troll black people, then Kanye West isn't stupid. He's evil. It's an evil thing to do for no reason on a Monday for niggas to have to wake up fucking mad and how much of it are we going to take? Everything you said is true. I don't care if it's genius or performative because I do feel like it's detrimental, period. I think that you wearing a White Lives Matter shirt is extremely triggering to black people. And to add to that, having Candace Owens stand by your side tells me everything that I need to.

know. It goes beyond him saying, oh, this is because my next question is, is he selling these shirts? They were wearing them. Do we know this? I don't know. He's wearing them. People were wearing them in the fashion show. He's wearing them. She's wearing them. Are you trying to sell this? That's even worse to me because, and then the reason I use the word triggering, which is such a strong word, is because of everything that you just said and what it means when you wear that shirt. But then you have, this isn't the first time that he's said something that is extremely problematic and hurts the very people that you look like. So when you do something like this, you put us down and you're empowering a whole other sector of society that really does feel like white lives

matter. And when someone like Kanye West is wearing the shirt, you excuse that type of thought. That's the scariest thing to me, because now people are going to look at this and say, oh well Kanye West said white lives matter then what you know black lives matter white lives matter like obviously white lives do matter if someone like Kanye West you know what I'm saying that's that to me

especially where we are right now in our society him wearing the white lives matter shirt is extremely purposeful and it is intentional and to do it where we are right now in our society I think says everything that we need to know about Kanye and I will go ahead and say I do think he's evil you how many

times is he going to do stuff that's triggering and problematic to black people and you continue to excuse it at not you but just in general excuse it as oh it's something else no after a while you have to start believing that this is exactly who this person is i don't care what the purpose is behind it what you're doing is extremely damaging to black people and it if it's going to put us down and empower them, I don't understand how else to look at it. Yeah, so I think that this is probably more nuisance than it is damaging to me. I think Kanye West is becoming a pest. It's beyond that to me.

I think that we, I understand what you're saying. A pest to who? A pest to, fuck, niggas like me. He's a pest. It's like, Jesus Christ, like this motherfucker again. You know, I think, I think he's becoming a pest. This is very, there's, there's, there's, when we talk about things that are at, that are dangerous, I do believe it is, the concept, conceptually it is dangerous.

It is evil, right? But I think it's probably less dangerous because I think he's such a buffoon type character that not many serious people take him seriously. I think hearing, having to hear what people on the right or specific, young white kids who don't fucking have a clue about these things. Young black kids either. I think it's probably more of a nuisance than it is something that's

actually dangerous. I think when he was getting involved with the Trump thing and all of that stuff, that was actually dangerous because Donald Trump has the ability to make an impact on so many people's lives and to run America into the ground because he was the president.

So I think that that was actually dangerous. I think a lot of these antics now are just, they just show, to me that he doesn't really have a real connection with the black community. He is disconnected. When I say the black community, I mean

the not so much the large diaspora of thought that represents blackness. I'm saying the average black person that I know don't want to hear no white lives matter shit. Sure. And maybe there is a whole contingent of niggas somewhere that

when we're talking about what we need go, hey shit, but what about white people? We got to consider them. You know what I'm saying? I think there's a lot of younger people who are like that. Well, I don't know those younger people. Maybe either I'm an old old nigger or I'm just not in the Uncle Tom section of pavilions and Ralph's. But what I will say is that I just don't know when we start letting people fuck with us like this. Like we, parts of Black America are in a Tristan Thompson, Chloe Kardashian relationship with Kanye West.

to where this nigga keeps doing the same shit over and over and over again and you just keep hoping that he changes or hoping that you get the old one back. But just like Chloe said, like she was cheated on so much that she said it was fucking with her brain. Look at you. And to me, and to me,

I think that Kanye West is abusing black people for the sake of attention, for the sake of profit, and he's fucking with some of our, collective psyche. He's making us litigate things that we already know. And he's making us have pointless conversations like the one we're having right now. Is it pointless though if there are going to be, if you, if we see a bunch of people wearing

season nine, Yeezy, White Lives Matter, is he just fucking with us? If, I mean, when you say a pest, a pest to me is Lil Wayne saying acting like he doesn't know what Black Lives Matter is and is like, well, why would we say, like, have you seen how much money I make or Ray J's taking a picture with Trump or you know what I mean like that's pest behavior to me sorry it's true I saw it I said it's factual it's factual it's factual that's pest behavior to me what Kanye has done has been it has happened over an abusive relationship as you just said it's over and over and over again there is intention behind it whatever your intention is knowing and you know what's going to be on the other side of it.

You know how black people are going to react to it. You know how harmful and hurtful it is to black people, especially people who do have hope that one day he's going to be different and one day he's going to change. And then you do something like this with Candice Owen standing right next to you. For profit, for gain, like you're putting down black people to make your, for profit for yourself? How is that not evil?

He's triggering people emotionally. Black people. Black people emotionally for the sake of his own personal wealth. That's evil. It is evil. I said before it, it's evil. Time will tell how consequential it is, how much this actually matters. That's all I'm saying.

What I would like to do more than anything, because I understand this, what I'm trying to say is, I would like us to break free from caring. And we've tried to do that on this podcast, and we failed to. We failed the podcast. And I'm at fault because I want to bring it up and I want to talk about it. You're right. But it's not your fault. We have to talk about it. Right.

That's what, it's our job. I would like us to break from free. Guys, he's gone. And not only is he's gone, but he's been gone. This is not the first time we've had to do this. This is not the first time we've had to let somebody go.

We've let plenty of people go. We've let them go. Just let them go. You know what I think gives people hope is between this moment, when he left social media, when he went to rehab, I believe that's where he went. To now, in between, he was saying a lot of stuff, this sounded pro-black. What? When he was in the fight with Adidas? What was he saying?

No, he was when he was talking, when he was like posting pictures of people and he didn't want his kids to have a certain education. and he was talking about, you know, like Kim and the family and everything he was saying was like about blackness. I'm not saying I agree with this. I just think that there's some people who are like, okay, he's come back, you know, he's pro-black. He wants to make sure his children don't get, don't lose their blackness and what they're doing.

That's the kind of message he was putting out. And then he does this. Yeah. And that's why I think it messes with people. Look, you know, you guys get robust on this. Talk, talk your shit. you guys like think about it but really try to divorce the hardest thing to do is try to divorce emotion from what it is that easy does he's fucking with us either either he's stupid or evil

we don't have time for either we don't and to your point i'm not going to say that it's not dangerous i'm not going to say that you're you're actually you have a point there but i'm going to say we've known that it's been it's been dangerous for years it's been four years since he came to TMZ. It's been, we have to, it's been four years since he, since he's come to TMZ.

He's gone, white lives matter. He's gone at Harriet Tubman. Like, it's been four years since that. You know what I mean? You forgot about the Harriet Tubman thing. He's just like, we,

it's, by the way, this is yay. Don't blame all, don't do the thing where you hit up fucking people around yeah and go, yo, is this your friend?

Because I know firsthand that the people around Kanye West feel as powerless as a lot of people in the culture. It's somebody that they've known for a long time, somebody that they've tried to be around, it's somebody that they've tried to talk to.

They don't want to let them go completely, but they don't condone the things. I know people around them, man. I know people in the circle. Oh, I know you do. I know you do. And so I would hate for them to be blamed because... No, this is...

He's got to take responsibility. for himself. This is all on Kanye. It's crazy. All right, Rachel, what you want to talk about next? Well, I know you want to talk about Tori. Yeah, Tony Lane. Which was almost the big deal of the day. It was almost the big deal of the day. Look, Tori Lanes is fucking back.

Oh, okay, LeBron. Look, it's not me making the decision. He just had an album last year. He ain't gone anywhere. Sadly, he's like, always in on knees. That's not what I mean. What I mean is that Tori Lanes, whatever cloud that was hanging over Tori Lanes from the Meg thing, it's obviously over because,

look, the thing that happened with Tori Lanes was that because of the allegations made by Made the Stallion, and we should say that Tori Lanes is still awaiting trial under allegations that he shot a black lady. Okay? Yes. She has not backed off her story. Right.

Made the stallion, not once, that she was shot by Tori Lanes. after a wild night in LA during the pandemic. Okay. So after that happened and she made that accusation, the penalty that Tory Lane's had to go through wasn't so much the legal penalty because we haven't gotten there yet. It was a social penalty.

It's been 50-50. Well, at first, it wasn't. At first, in the months and weeks right after that, you could not have been someone with a large platform going, yo, I'm still fucking with Tori Lanes. Like, you couldn't have done it. With the large platform, sure. Yeah, I'm not talking about the guys on Twitter that got, you know.

Because it was 50-50 then. Pictures of Donatello from the Ninja Turtles in a coofy as their avi eyes. I'm not talking about them. I'm saying that like most people that were big, mainstream stars didn't want to be next to Tori Lanes. That's gone. Oh, that only lasted a few weeks. Oh, I think it lasted what.

longer than that Rachel. When did he do this? This was last year. When did he allegedly shoot her last year? No, this is 2020. Was it 2020? Yeah, we was locked down. Two years ago.

Don't go to nobody house, remember? That's right, because they shouldn't have even been in her in Kylie's house. Two years ago. Gosh, I can't believe it's been two years. I don't feel like it was that long. I think my issue one of my issues with Tori.

When that happened, I wasn't fat. Okay. That's been a while. Wow, man. Cupcakes take time to build up. Hostis cakes, hostis cakes. It tastes so good when they bake. Hostess cakes.

Is this a real song? I made it up when I was a kid. I didn't know you were going to say when you were a kid. I made it up when I was like nine. And you still remember it. Yeah, my mom used to buy hostess cakes since you were bringing me to the house and I was singing a little hostess cake. Which one? Oh man, I used to love them. Little Debbie's.

Chocolate with the little, with the... No, well, the little debes is different. The hostess, but you know, the little cupcakes with the little thing on top of them, you feel me? The chocolate one. Oh, man, I used to fuck them up. I tried to eat one maybe like a month ago. Fucking tastes terrible. What the fuck.

They were good. They were good. Yeah, they were good. But you were saying now. What was I saying? I just feel like it really wasn't that long that people started to wait to endorse or, collaborate with or hang out with Tori Lanes. I think I just personally from and maybe I just, I forgot,

I remember on social media, the discourse being 50-50 because we talked about it. We talked about it a lot on this podcast, how it was just so interesting and probably not that shocking that people really seem to question Meg in this situation and really wanted to give Tori Lanes the benefit of the doubt. There was a huge and still is. And it seems now to me people are really acting like it didn't happen.

I understand that we have short-term memory when it comes to big news and big stories that happen in the media. But the fact that he pulled out his gun allegedly and shot at her multiple times, allegedly, and she was and she suffered an injury and had to have surgery. I just don't understand how people have really moved on from that. I'm not saying people have to publicly bash him, but I don't understand going out of your way to publicly support him when there is a woman who is claiming this.

And she's not alone in an assault story when it comes to him. That's what shocks me. And people still want to applaud him because they believe he's putting out good music. So I want, Donnie, I want a new drop whenever I play devil's advocate. like somebody saying ha ha ha Satan or get me my eyes

so when I play devil's advocate something devilish give me something devilish when I play devil's advocate because I'm about to Can you dig it? So this is what I've seen in the last 60 days or whatever

when it comes to Tory Lane I've seen Torrey Lanes on a live with Diddy I've seen Tory Lanes get what it's tantamount to an endorsement from LeBron James, a major mainstream star. I've seen Kit Cuddy, Kit Cuddy who is the kiddiest of Cuddies, someone who is absolutely always

normally on the right side of things come out and say, you know, fuck with Tori Lane's gray, I appreciate Tori, they had a little back and forth on Twitter. I've just seen a bunch of different people. It's seemingly, of course, major, major, major, major,

major supporter of black people. one of the strongest black women in the industry, Iggy Azalea, she actually stayed, what? She was out hanging out partying with Torrey Lanes. You know what I mean? So I've seen a lot of people kind of, and it made me think, are these people saying that it makes more sense

in order to put some guardrails on this to wait to the legal adjudication of Tori Lane, has happened to then decide whether or not you're still going to support him. Being that is the response to him people saying that, hey, we understand that Meg, isn't it acceptable to you? Isn't it acceptable position to say, hey, we understand what Meg is saying. We take it seriously what Meg is saying. He is saying it did not happen that way.

There's back and forth between them. is it acceptable to you to say, hey, I'm going to wait until this plays itself out in court. And based upon how this plays out in court, that's how I'm going to make my decision on the future of my fandom or appreciation of Tory Lane's. Devil's advocate right there. What do you think about people who might be feeling that way? I think you can feel that way and not go out of your way to support him. So if you, I think that feeling, the way you just explained that is totally justified. You can wait for it to, we do it all the time.

We wait for the legal system to do its thing, to run its course. But that doesn't mean that you have to go on lives, play the music, their music on your social media, and talk about how they don't miss, which was a poor choice of words. No shit, we know he doesn't miss. He shot this woman allegedly in the foot twice. You don't have to do all of that. I would be so upset if you were my man and you were playing Tori Lanes like that. Because there is this black woman out there who is claiming these things that he allegedly did. And has not, you know, has really been emotional about it, has talked about it.

You know, she did the interview with Gail, but not being super messy about it. I feel like she's explained why she tried to protect him, which was really powerful and meant a lot too. How, you know, as black women, this is what we feel like we need to do. She didn't want to see, still, even at the end of the day after he shot her, she's still claiming she didn't want him to get into a worse situation with the police. She was scared for him as a black man. But ultimately, you know, she needed to tell her side of the story. I just don't understand how, to me, when you align yourself with someone who has these type of accuracy, against them, to me, you're also sending out a statement towards Megan Stein. That's just how I see it. I can't separate the two because it's not like they got into an argument. It's not like they had a bad breakup and you're picking sides. The allegations are huge when it comes to this. And so if he is found guilty, then what? Now you're just going to see, this is why I don't think it will change how people are. If he is found guilty, I think people will

continue in the exact same way they are. Wow, really you do. I really do. Yeah. Even someone like a LeBron James. Yeah. So you think that if Tory Lane's is found guilty of shooting making this out, you think he serves the time, I think people just be totally, he served his time. Or whatever his punishment is, maybe he doesn't get time, maybe he's on probation. Okay, the court made its decision. I really do. I think if you're going to, if you're going to support it now, I think you'll support it then. I think people just, it's very Hollywood, right? People, want to forget it because he's a famous person or he puts out good music or you think he's funny. It's just a Hollywood move to me.

You know, a part of this is also is that there's a human thing to worship talent. That's a human thing, right? Oh, my God, this person did all of these things, but Jesus Christ, they could write an amazing sonata that made me feel in this real. Is that a sonata? That's a sonata. Yeah, sonata. But there's, that's on steroids sometimes when it comes to us.

like black people or at least let me talk about my my community my family like when I was growing up somebody's talent was such an important um part of their humanity like what you could do I remember hearing about uncles that like it's like yo this guy did this guy did that this guy did this, but let me tell you something, man. If you put a pencil in that boy hand, you should see what he could do with that pencil. Like, could nobody draw...

I learned about people through descriptions of their talents and also, and oftentimes descriptions of their wasted talent, right? You'd hear somebody be like, oh, he was dead before you were born. And like the first thing you would say about is, man, he could drive, man. I tell you what,

I've seen him do all kinds of crazy. And that's how I would learn through people by, like, legends of, like, what it was that they do. The first thing I could learn about my father from all of his brothers and stuff was that he was a fucking amazing athlete, right? And the fact that my dad was talented in those things, like, really was the building block of our relationship in a way.

I get that. I didn't learn about my father's trauma and other things about him so much later on. I learned about what he could do on the football field and what he could do on the baseball field, right? And so I think that because a lot of times white America has valued us based upon our talents, like even if you watch Roots, like, you know, you see A. I'm just saying, man, you look back at slavery.

It was like it took a specially talented black person to catch the eye of white people. In Django, even in Django, if you go back and look at it, he goes, there is that one nigger 10, that one nigga in 10,000, that one nigga in a million that can do all of this different stuff. That didn't get made up. They really felt that way. Most black people fucking suck. But there's an Eddie, there's a Sammy, there's a Michael Jackson, there's a Lena

horn, there's all of these people that are a credit to their race as they used to say. Sure, they're the exception. They're the exception. So I think what we've started to do is we've started to sort of kind of look at things like that we sort of kind of decided to say that yo man this person is all fucked up this person is all fucked up this person is all messed up but look at what they can do they're not completely devoid of humanity look what they can add look what they can bring and for a long time we fought for those people we fought for them because like they'll fuck up and there'll be fuck up so that we

can understand and we still need to come them to come back i think that is not tory i'm not saying that it's true. But what you're saying is true. What I'm saying is that I think it's a notion we have to let go of. True. We have to peopleize people. Yes. And some really glorify. And some really talented people are going to make incredibly bad decisions. And some people who are not especially talented are going to do grandiose, amazing things because all of that is subjective anyway. So, you know, people that have, that want to wait

and see on Torrey Lane's, that's their prerogative. People that say, hey, Tori Lane shot Megan and I believe Megan, that's their prerogative too. But you are making a choice. Yes, you are. And I just want to make sure everybody understands that. I choose. I understand it. It might not be true.

There could be something could be mistake. I choose to believe Megan Estabian. I choose to believe her. But understand, it is a choice. Like LeBron James and the rest, they made it. They made a choice to say, hey, it doesn't, I don't think he did this, whatever, whatever, I fuck with his music. Boom. That endorsement, that's a choice.

Yes, it is. A bad choice, I might add. What you were saying about glorifying people, totally Kanye West. The way we glorify people in the culture, totally Kanye. Also, just to note, Tori Lanes, let's not forget he is under investigation right now for an alleged assault on August Alcina. August Alcina? Yeah. August Alsina

Dapgate Dapgate? Yeah, August Alcina apparently walked past Tori Lanes at the back of a concert Back of a concert, back of a concert,

walk past him, Tori Lanes got mad, followed him outside, allegedly punched him August Alcina posted pictures in an elevator with blood dripping from his lip, looks like something else

was going on with his face and he has publicly said that Tori Lanes assaulted him. Beat him up, because he didn't give him the dab. He's got this. I'm seeing a pattern. I'm seeing a pattern.

Yeah. All right. So next I told you guys we're going to bring you Soledad O'Brien. Soledad O'Brien who's doing amazing, amazing things. She's always done amazing things. One of the latest amazing things that she's done is being an executive producer of the documentary, The Rebellious Life of Rosa Parks. We talked to Soledad about this amazing documentary.

We talked to her about her career in media. We talked to her about media sources that you should be able to trust and how she gets her news. On the other side is break, we'll talk to her. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin

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This is one of my media heroes that we have joining us on the show next here. Emmy and Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist and executive producer. Soledad O'Brien, what a get by the talent bookers. Give it up for Soledad O'Brien. We have a top-tier person on the podcast.

It's amazing. Soledad. So happy that you could join us. You are the executive producer of a fantastic documentary, The Rebellious Life of Miss Rosa Parks. I've seen this. I was amazed at it. what made you decide to delve into a life that in many ways is so familiar to us,

we think we know the story of Rosa Parks, but then I realize I really don't. Like what jumped out about her life story to you? Yeah, the documentary is based on a book by the same name by a woman named Gene Theo Harris. And Gene is a professor and she's done a ton of research. And she started tweeting about kind of all the things that people don't know about Rosa Parks. And she was going back and forth with a woman who would become one of our directors, Johanna Hamilton. And Johanna was, you know, would say there were all these things like she considers herself a well-read, thoughtful person, all these things she just didn't know about Rosa Parks.

And we knew it was an interesting concept when Johanna, our director and Yoruba Richen as well, our other, director came to us with this project because there was just so many things that we all thought we knew about Rosa Parks when actually there was a lot we didn't know. And I was kind of interested in the why. Why is everyone so comfortable with this take on a woman in this one little snapshot, right? If you ask anybody, whether it's a child or an adult, they'll say, you know, she was just one day she was tired and she just didn't want to get out of her seat. Yeah. You know, and she wouldn't give her seat on the bus. And you think like her, her value to the civil rights movement is from this to this. When in actuality, Rosa Parks was a complete badass. I mean, she literally was

an activist, a hardcore activist. I mean, this is a woman who was supportive of the Black Panthers and of Malcolm X as much as Dr. King. And she believed, you know, by any means necessary, meant by every means necessary. And so she was very open to try to end what she had experienced her entire life, which was white supremacy and a lot of violence starting from the time that she was raised by her grandparents.

So we were very interested in not only what was her life like then, but also why is it so comfortable for people to believe that civil rights, you know, the accidental narrative? Like one day I was just sitting on a bus and all of a sudden, this major litigation just sprouted out of me being tired after a day of work. She would say of that day, I was tired, but no more tired than I am many day of work.

You know, I was tired of being treated badly. And, you know, really, she was just sick and tired of how black people were continuously and consistently and systematically discriminated against in America. And so, you know, that's what made her sick. not my feet hurt, which I think is the narrative that we get. One thing that Van forgot to mention when he was introducing you is that you are also a member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated, which I just had to point out, Soror. How did you miss that band? Come on, man. He's a hater.

I'm very sorry about that. Obviously. I'm so very sorry. Rosa Parks is somebody we find, I think, one of our black historical figures that, we're so fascinated with, but we don't know, as you just spelled out, a lot about her in doing your research and putting this all together, what is it that you found the most fascinating about Rosa Parks? So at one point you learned that Rosa Parks, one of her job as Secretary of the NAAACP,

is to go and capture stories of people who have complaints in some cases, very, you know, lots of violence that they're experiencing. And there's a woman named Risi Taylor, who is a black woman who is raped by three white men. And they tell her, if you tell anybody, we will kill you. And Rosa Parks gets on a bus and goes out to visit her and kind of a rural place, quite a distance, and sits down with Risi to capture her narrative. And I found this so moving because, first of all, I think as a journalist, like, it's kind of what you do. You know, Risi Taylor knows there's no chance at all that these men will get,

that she's going to get justice. Not going to happen, right? Like, realistically. Rosa Parks is there taking down her story of what happened to her, also knowing never going to see justice. And yet they do it because the facts of the case matter. Like, Risi Taylor's story matters. Even if she's not going to get justice today or maybe not in 10 years or 20 years or 30 years, eventually people will under, I just, it was just so moving to me to this idea of like, we're going to capture your story because the truth of what has happened actually matters. It does matter. And I just got very emotional about that.

So that was one thing. And then I think the second thing, which I think was true for a lot of the women who worked in the civil rights movement, their contributions were literally never really considered. Even those who worked very much in support and then those who were very much out front. Someone like Rosa Parks, you know, she never worked again after the Montgomery bus boycott. You know, we don't tell that part of the story. As a kid, I never heard that part of the story, right? I heard she sat, she was tired, then there was a boycott, then some legal stuff happened. And then racism was solved. You know, but you don't hear, actually, she could never find employment again, nor her husband. And one year, they submitted a tax claim for just under $700. You know, this idea, like the cost to Rosa Parks was so high, but we never talk about that at all. And as much as people, were making money, giving speeches, et cetera, et cetera, she wasn't getting any of that money. So I think both of those things really point to a woman who had a ton of courage.

I mean, how do you sit down and say, no, your story matters. Tell me what happened next. Tell me what happened next. Tell me what happened next, right? When everybody knows those guys aren't going to get any penalty, there'll be no justice in that case. And yet that's what she always fought for. Like, it's not going to happen in my lifetime, but it matters.

And so we're going to go ahead and do this. I just find that. I find that, that to me speaks so much to this woman who's just hardcore. Yeah. You mentioned, and that was going to be my next question, you mentioned how the contributions of women from the civil rights and black power eras aren't sometimes centered or prioritized or discussed by us in any way. Like if you start naming names, you, Megher Evers, Bairnard Rustin, Stokely, Car, Michael,

Malcolm X, Dr. King, but like Ella Baker and Fannie Lou Hammer and Rosa Parks and so many other women, it seemed like we skip their chapter in history. How important is it for us now that a lot of these people have transitioned into becoming ancestors? How important is it for us to tell these stories and really contextualize a lot of women's contributions to that era? in a real sort of, like in a realistic way. How important is it for us to tell their stories? Yeah, it's crucial. I mean, partly as a reporter, I just think the truth matters, right? Like, what happened?

What factually happened? Who was there? Who did what? That's what I always want to know. But certainly, I think the narrative around this, like, accidental activism is just BS, and it needs to be nipped in the bud, right? that activism is hard and intentional and strategic and takes decades, right? We learn through this doc that Rosa Parks was literally working for years and years,

decades before the Montgomery bus boycott, right? That this was something that actually took a lot of time and a lot of effort. And also, you know, you learn a lot about hypocrisy. The day they were laying Rosa Parks to rest. You know, there was this big line in the capital of people who are coming to pay their respects. I was the same day the Supreme Court was working to overturn voting rights. You know, like the day that the people were saying the nicest things about Rosa Parks with their left hand, with their right hand, they were literally undermining the very work that she did. And so I think there's a lot of just brutal honesty in Rosa Parks' work and what she believed in and what she stood for.

And I guess I've always just been like, no, I want the brutal honesty. I want to understand really what happened and who was there and who did what. I think that that's really important. Yeah, I want to talk about that because, you know, going to PWIs my entire life, there were only a certain number of black historical figures that we learned about. And it always seemed to be the unproblematic or the accidental, as you said, black figures. Rosa Parks we learned about. But like you said, it was, oh, she just was tired and she was sitting on the bus. We've talked about it. She was someone's grandma who just got tired.

Yeah. And we talked about this on the podcast about how Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And how we kind of, the story is retold in a, where he's just this nice man who was just, you know, it wasn't the depths of it. And I feel there's a statement by you saying the rebellious life of Rosa Parks or, I mean, the book and now, you know, this, the documentary, can you talk a little bit about why that is? Why do we do that? Not us, but, you know. Us, right? Not us, but us. I think it's intentional in a lot of ways. I think we try, we as a whole, as people, try to make it palatable. I'm not sure George Bush would be honoring Rosa Parks if what was front and center was her work with the Black Panthers.

I'm pretty confident that she would not have gotten all the accolades she got from the various schools where she won honorary degrees and she got a lot. If it was all about, well, you know, she was tight with Malcolm X. Like I think we as a whole like this very sanitized version, especially when it comes to rebels. And I think especially when it comes to women. And so what I always thought was interesting was that was never her strategy, right? She wasn't a person who's like, listen, I'm meeting with Black Panthers on the slide. Don't tell anybody. She was through her entire life, a very hardcore activist.

And however people took her, you know, that was sort of their problem, what they didn't understand. And so I really love that about her. There's a great part in the doc where these students are looking for her to help them with a project that they're doing. And they're kind of like Rosa Parks. Well, you know, we'll never get Rosa Park. She's just been part of this massive boycott, like she's this famous revered figure. And of course, she's like, oh, yes, absolutely. This is important too, because that's what she was about. She was about doing the work. So, you know, I think partly it's news organizations, right? We like a very nuance doesn't translate well, right? Complication doesn't translate well. Even though

everybody we know is nuanced and complicated, right? The idea that Moved Parks like Dr. King and like Malcolm X, I think for a lot of people, they'd be like, I can't wrap my head around that. But I actually know that that was true for a lot of black people in the civil rights era, right? That they didn't have to choose. They understood they were trying to get to a goal. And I sometimes believe that news is like, no, no, no, it has to be. What is the clear arc? What is the single hero story? It went from this to this to this. Heroes should be perfect. They should be easy. They should be grandmas if they're women, you know, they should cause no problems. And look, then it ends like this and it all resolves when reality of human beings is much more messy and much more, you know,

just more complicated than that. So I think all of us, news, media and everybody else, they like that narrative. They like a nice, easy narrative. And it's, it's an easy sell. And you know, what I always thought was very interesting was Claudette Colvin, who was really the first person to sit on the bus, right? She was this teenage girl, as you know. The interesting thing to me was that I never knew that she actually worked with Rosa Parks. They knew each other. It was so fast. I mean, I knew that she had been first, and often she was left out of history in a lot of ways.

But, you know, she was a student, a protege of Rosa Parks, made a lot of sense to me, right? That there was this real network of people who were trying to make change. And I just think the facts of the case are always important. I want to pivot really quickly because you were such a reliable and remained such a reliable voice in the news for so long. Such a straight shooter. Like I'm dead. Like a. No, such a.

Such a trusted news source. No, I just always knew that I could count on you to give straight, unvarnished, real news. Now, that is not the case as much as it used to be. So that people are... People are confused. The business has changed. If you were to recommend one source out there for people to be able to go to that source and get news that is nourishing, that is as unslanted and unbiased as possible,

is there a place right now where people can go and get real, informative, smart human being making news. So my answer may not make you happy, but I like to watch everything. Like I love Roland Martin. He's got a great show. It's really important and really good. But I also feel like, but you also need to know what's happening in the New York Times. I have friends who are like, I'm done subscribing from the New York Times.

Well, don't. You should know what they're reporting on. And you should know the mistakes they're making and the things they get right. Washington Post watching every cable. I watch everything. You watch Fox News? I do. Only because some of that stuff is just craziness.

I mean, it's just the weird. They had Kelly and Conway on and they were just talking about, what are they talking about? She was talking about how people are afraid to make the sign of the cross a dinner or something now. I'm like, what are you talking? First of all, as you know, my mom was Cuban. So like Catholics, especially from Latin America, we cheer when the plain lands. Yeah. They praise the Virgin.

Mary before we eat. What is she talking about? It's so nutty. It just, it literally is just insane. And I, listen, I, I,

I talk to people who will say to me, I've heard that New York City is basically a war zone. And I'm like, literally live in Harlem. It's fine. It's, I got a smoothie today at the shop down the street, went grocery shopping and got grilled shrimp.

Like, we're good, you know. But people, have lost their minds. And obviously they're leveraging off of that. But I, so I would never say one. I think you have to really be a knowledgeable consumer. One thing that does not work, I think, I know, is the yelling congressman, right? Like, this guy's in the far left and this one's on the far right. And we're going to spend the next four and a half minutes yelling at each other. And then I'm going to say, gentlemen, we got to leave it there. We love to have more time with

Both of you guys so spirited, but we're going to have to leave it there. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining. We started doing our show, matter of fact, where we were like, we're actually going to educate people. Like, that's the, we have a mission of the show. And if you lie, you don't get on. We don't even have a lot of politicians on. Like this idea that politicians must be the center of a story is just not accurate.

You can explain what is happening to people. You don't need to have booked some random congressman from the state. of Florida. I promise you, it's not helping your ratings. It's just stupidity. And so, you know, I think just rethinking what, you know, how you're getting information and then being able to be very knowledgeable. The thing I always tell people and I'm on Twitter is like, what is the framing? Ask yourself all the time. So how is this framed? Is this framed like, wow, sounds like the police department wrote this entire story. Right. Right. Like there are great reporters everywhere and there are terrible.

reporters everywhere. And so you just have to say, like, let me be a good consumer of news. You know, I've had friends who will say to me, you know, the only place to get a great, you know, get great jackets in such and such really expensive, fancy store. And you're like, no, there's lots of places that have great stuff. You just have to be able to find it and search for it and know the tricks to finding something good. And there are lots of places that are expensive that have a lot of crap, you know, and understanding how to navigate that is a very good skill if you're a consumer of news. But to me, it's what is the framing? Why? How is the story framed? And what can we learn about the journalists by looking at through their frame? Why do they always, you know, give the benefit

of the doubt to Jared Kushner? Why do they always give the benefit of the doubt to the police? Why is everything kind of from this point of view? Who's considered the bad guy in their telling? Who's considered the good guy always in their telling? People are pretty consistent, has been my experience. So that's all. I think people should just be good consumers and read everything. There's lots of good information. I wouldn't tell you not to watch stuff. I mean, I think Fox is kind of crazy, but it's good to know what your neighbors are watching. Yeah.

On the flip in, then, you said that the business has changed and it has. When it comes to modern journalism, how can it be improved? Oh, my God. How much time do we have? I think it's a real mistake to put people on who lie. If you lie to me, like if I come on your show and at the end, you're like, oh, my God, every single thing she said was just untrue. You would never have me on again, right? You'd be like, wow, that was just, we're not doing that again. And that's, and you wouldn't have a person in your home who's dishonest. Like, it just, it's crazy to me that news organizations and journalists will interview someone who's clearly lying to them. And then move on and say, thank you very much and invite them back. They should not come back. It's, it's such a sign of disrespect to be lied to. And the few times I've been lied to, I just don't have people back in. So that would be my very first thing. Also, I mean, again, on matter of fact, our syndicated show that usually airs on Saturdays or Sundays, our mission is to educate people. So we're just never going to have people scream at each other. If there's an issue, we're like, so why is housing so expensive? So explain to me what is happening with gas. How do you figure out health care? Like, let's answer this question for everybody. And what you end up finding, is that you're much less partisan in your delivery

because you're trying to solve a problem. You know, I have no idea of half the people I'm interviewing. I don't know if they're Republicans or Democrats or independent. I have no idea because we're talking about insolent and how can you get it, especially if you only make $40,000 a year or $50,000 a year, right? Like we're not talking about, tell me you're angry and your outrage at such and such. I don't care. I want to hear how do we solve this problem and how do we get here?

And I think when you have a mission of educating people, you know what our biggest show was? So our show, matter of fact, does really well. And we beat everything on cable CNN, I mean, by a zillion. Literally. I mean, I'm just being factual. And so sometimes they would talk a lot about their viewership. We have literally millions of people. And our audience is younger and more diverse as well.

Our biggest show has been looking at the grid in Puerto Rico. and how people who are building solar or themselves were working to figure out how to work outside of the grid system, which is terrible. Could you imagine going into a newsroom being like, okay, guys, big story. I think we should have it.

The grid in Puerto Rico, and how do you get solar for your home? Right. But that's been our biggest show. Wow. The second one was, so that's 2 million people who watch that. By the way, CNN wished they had 2 million people watching.

The biggest show. The second biggest show was a show that focused on the border, where we literally talked to people who are living on the border. And what you find is they're much more nuanced and smart about what's happening on the border, whether they're Republicans, Democrats, independents, right? Because they live it. And they think everybody in D.C. who's talking about the border as an issue as an idiot. Because they're just like, like they think about the border. They like Mexicans who come in the country across the bridge to buy things, right? They are customers.

So this idea of like, oh, Mexico bad is embarrassingly stupid. It's just not accurate. And so, you know, what we decided we would do was to dig into stories and really try to understand them with the people who are in it as opposed to an elected official who often is not really there to help understand, but talk up, you know, there's a political reason behind why they're there. They politicize, obviously, pretty much everything. And it's been very good for us.

It's been good for our ratings. And we've tried to help people understand, you know, what is the First Amendment? What is gerrymandering? We keep talking about it. But what is it? Is it good? Is it bad? Who does it?

Why is it called that? That's kind of a weird name. You know, all these are shows that we've done that help people understand the political process versus, you know, Bob Jones is the congressman from here. And Sue Smith is a congresswoman from here. And they're going to fight it out over the next five minutes, which is not useful, I don't think. Wow. Fantastic. So that out, Brian, the show, as a matter of fact, it is indicated, so I'm assuming you have to check your local listings for that. Yeah. Yeah. The rebellious life of Rosa Parks is the documentary. I was going to ask you a question that I asked on the podcast one time. It's like a very controversial one got to go, but I don't think I'm going to do it. I don't think we're going to go. Yeah, do it. You want to do it? Yeah. So that this was very controversial. It was. Okay. We were just having fun when we did this.

So this is one got to go. Soledat O'Brien's going to answer this question. Four civil rights leaders. You have to take away one and all their accomplishments. Okay? Well, that four civil rights leaders, four black leaders. These are the four black leaders. Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr.,

Barack Obama and Rosa Parks. One got to go. Look at Soledat. So that she's thinking. It's controversial. It's stupid. It's divisive. What is your answer?

Soledat O'Brien? Listen, I don't think you get a Barack Obama without the other three. How do you get a Barack Obama without the other three? You can't. You feel vindicated? You feel vindicated, man? Do you see his hands up in the air? Solidate?

You're literally picking people from like the 1950s and then jumping to the 2000s. So no, I don't even think that's a good question because it's like, you always tell people like, too hypothetical. I love it. Pick a fourth person from the era. Dr. Barack Obama would not exist. And by the way, I believe he'd be the first person to tell you that, right?

I think you would too. I think if he were sitting there, he'd be like, I literally take me out of the mix. Without them, I do not get to be in the role I'm in. So like, I'm good. I think he would say that. So, yeah, no, I think it makes a lot of sense to, you know, those are people who's, you know, as cheesy as I think it sometimes is to say that, you know, our lives are built on their shoulders.

Absolutely. And their shoulders of a lot of loss, right? Assassinated, assassinated, utterly forgotten and her story, you know, historically inaccurate for lots and lots of schoolchildren. So they paid a big, giant, all of them paid a massive. cost so that Barack Obama could be president one day. And I think we're, you know, obviously feeling the backlash of that presidency and also the backlash to Dr. King and Rosa Parks and Welcome X today. So awesome to have you on. Yes. Like literally what I said. Thank you for having me. Thank you for telling

everybody. Can I just remind everybody, October 19th is when our, um, our documentary streams on Peacock. So I hope everybody will check it out. October 19th on Peacock. I love Peacock. I like to watch Amber roughen on Peacock. Yeah, awesome. So I can't wait to see it. Soled out, Brian. Thank you for joining us today on higher learning. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. You bet. All right, bye, bye, bye. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner.

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Did you see this situation with the fish? I hate that we're doing this story. I love this story. I love the story. So that Al-Brien was great, but we have to talk about... Yes, I saw this. Why don't white violence? You guys, Ohio fishing tournament.

The fishing world has been rocked. And by the way, I love competitive bass fishing. Okay. Dog, let me tell you something. During the pandemic when I was really, really, really going through my depression, do you know one of the things that I watched to bring me out of it? Bassmasters. Really?

Competitive bass fishing is one. of the things that I watched. It was just... When is it about it? I don't know. I'm not familiar with this world. So soothing. First of all, it's all naturey. You go to different places, right? You go, you can learn about all of these different lakes. These lakes, you don't know about, right? Today, I'm bassmeisters. We're going to tear up Georgia. We're in Diamond Head Lake right outside of Savannah. This beautiful 15-acre pond has some of the best big bass fishing in the land. the world if you can get around the reeds and you know where to get them. Number one in the world, Simon McGillicuddy is looking for another championship. He's got his real. He's got his gloves.

We're ready to go. Hitting up Georgia, Bassmaster style. Like you, like you, and they do it all over. Georgia, Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi. They go to these places. No idea. And you get to see all of these guys in their element catching fish. Some guys are, it's a talent, man.

Some guys, they know where the fish are at. They're like fish whisperers. And other guys just can get out there so quick and they can do it. So I love to watch it. Tell you something. $29,000 was on the line at the Ohio fishing tournament. They were going to win these guys. This was the Lake Erie Walleye Trail tournament.

He was suspicious. Jason Fisher, the director of the tournament, but one team's fish weighed almost twice the expected amount. The walleye in the bucket looked like they should have weighed around four pounds, but total weight was seven pounds. I can also hear the crowd grumbling like, there's no way, there's no way. I physically felt the fish and I could feel hard objects inside the fish. The videos are viral now when Jacob Runyon, all right, stood by watching this guy

take weights out of the fucking fish. What's going on in Ohio? This is such, I am so outrage. Well, you weren't alone. In the breach of etiquette with the fishing competition here, Jacob Runyon, you should be fucking ashamed of yourself. At least he showed his face. He stayed there while they were showing this,

the lead balls coming out of the fish. and the fillets. They had fish filets inside. I guess that, I doesn't even seem like that would weigh a lot, but whatever. Inside,

maybe they're trying to add the cushion to the lead ball. Right. Which obviously didn't work. Listen, I had, I guess competition is competition. I had no idea that so much money

was in fishing. Oh, that's $29,000 is, that's not like a big deal. Is it not? No. I mean, I saw that they said these guys, and that's the other reason

people were so outraged about this. These guys have been winning and winning and winning and there has been a lot of speculation that they've been cheating, said they've won hundreds of thousands of dollars. I had no idea there was so much money in this. Look.

I understand these people being upset. You got to fucking watch Bassmasters, man. Wait, do we have the audio? Because I want people to hear how angry these folks are. Where's the other? That's fucking death, motherfucker. Everybody Listen to me right now

Jake I want you to I don't want anybody to touch these guys I want to jail He should go to jail You're fucking It's awesome It's awesome

It's awesome It's amazing They're mad Call the cops They should call the cops He should go to jail By the way I'll have you know That Jason Christie

Of Park Hill, Oklahoma won a three-day tournament. March 7th. Bassmaster's Bassmaster Classic. Okay. He was five ounces better than second place finisher

Kyle Welcher. How much do you think Jason Christie won? All right. Over three days? Three days. This is in, this is in,

this is Greenville, this is in Oklahoma. Okay. Wait, he's from Parkville, Oklahoma. This took place at Hook at Lake Hartwell presented by Hook at Lake Hartwell

like Hartwell Oklahoma like whatever it was I have no clue how much you think he won for finishing in first place $250,000 he won $300,000 was the purse that he won

Jason Christie of Park Hill, Oklahoma okay $300,000 And that's the classic, right? So this is a breakdown of the classic. 300,000 for first, 50,000 for second. Third is 40,000.

Fourth is 30,000. Fifth is 25,000. The classic is actually, you know, like the biggest tournaments, but still, they're making money out here with these bass. Bass on your ass. 300,000 bath on your head. Okay. You don't, but you guys don't like to watch bass fishing.

Donnie, do you like? to watch bass fishing on TV? I don't. I haven't aged up to that just yet. Go fuck yourself, Donnie. It's in my future. I see it in my future, but not yet. Donnie, go fuck yourself.

Donnie, I was not expecting that. And I loved it. Gee, I've been watching Bassmasters since I was in my 20s, your piece of shit. God damn. Man, my dad used to watch this shit. You know what, Donnie?

Milt yourself. That's too good. That's actually dope. Before we leave, I do want to play a little bit more sound. Did you see this deconstruction, deconstructing Karen, this new documentary exposing white women's role in white supremacy? I just want to play the sound. Donnie, play the sound right here.

Real quick. Many of you would trade places with a black person in this society. Raise your hand. I don't know the answer to that. Well, it's yes or no. How many of you would do it? I know I would. I mean, I needed a Hispanic very dark.

No, I'm not talking about Hispanic. The question is. But I was going to have children. So I spent many years thinking of myself of having very dark-skinned children. The question is, how many of you would be willing to trade places in this society with a black person? I think I would. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Okay? I'm not saying there's not racism. Absolutely not. It's just saying I don't see it. Yeah, but you know how racist this country. Not to the degree that you do. Oh no, you will never know. You know in this country, we created the criminalization of black people. And when your skin as seen as a weapon, you're never unarmed. And that's why black boys and men and women are dying in the street with their skin. hands up. Okay, real quick, I just want to give white people because look, I'll be honest with you.

If I was white, I wouldn't want to trade places with black people, you know? I love being black and I would never want to. Unless you're Rachel. Unless you Rachel Dolazile, but once again, I stand by it. If everything is a social construct, then it could all be subverted. Whatever, people didn't understand it. That's fine. I get it.

Just me on my little island. Actually, a lot of people, I feel like, a lot of people wrote me and totally understood what you were saying. Oh, okay, I didn't really see the reaction. But, but, um, but I just know that people in my family didn't like it. But, but, but, uh, but look, just

don't overdo it. Like, I, I would want, it's just say, hey, you know, no, I wouldn't switch places with a black person. Why would I want to switch places with a person that deals with all of this every day? We don't need to know about the Hispanics that you was fucking, or the dark skin children.

The dark skin children. children, that's when it goes left. That's like you're, the fact that you was having sex with a Hispanic brother or that you was going to have dark skin children, that don't mean nothing, man. That's not, come on, man. White people just take the easy answer. And even if you're wrong, at least we understand that you was talking your shit. But y'all always complicated by telling us how woke y'all are.

Y'all not. It's okay. It's okay. None of us really are. We all problematic at some point. Y'all not. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't trade places.

It's fucked up. What can I do to help? Beyond that, shut the fuck up. You're asking for too much. You're asking for too much. All right. Take three caps off.

Do not stop learning. I am Van Lathen, Jr. And I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye guys.