How to Be a Better Human - How increasing your happiness can help solve climate change (w/ Jiaying Zhao and Elizabeth Dunn)

Episode Date: August 17, 2026

The conversation around climate change is often bleak and terrifying, but it doesn’t have to be that way, says climate behavior scientist Jiaying Zhao, or JZ. In this episode, JZ and happiness researcher Elizabeth Dunn join Chris to discuss why we need to account for happiness in climate solutions. JZ and Elizabeth argue since happiness is contagious, making happiness-driven decisions go further in influencing behavioral change than fear-based tactics. They also talk about an anesthetic gas that releases more carbon than CO2 and why you should google if your bank is investing money in fossil fuels.Featured guestFollow JZ on X, LinkedIn, and at psych.ubc.ca/profile/jiaying-zhao/Follow Elizabeth Dunn at https://dunn.psych.ubc.ca/Learn more at https://happyclimate.org/Buy Leave the Light OnConnect with the teamFollow Chris on Instagram and at chrisduffycomedy.comBuy Chris’ book, Humor Me Watch How to Be a Better Human videos on YouTube at TEDPodsFollow TED on X, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and TikTokFor the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscriptsFill out our survey at bit.ly/BHSurvey6 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Something that I think about a lot is that if there was a magic pill that someone invented that could lower your risk of stroke, of heart disease, of inflammation, plus it would make you smell better and look more attractive. Everyone would want to take that pill. The person who invented it would be very, very rich, and people would be clamoring for more of it.

But the thing is, that pill exists. It's just not a pill. It's flossing your teeth. and it has all of those benefits, but it's also kind of annoying and uncomfortable. And so a lot of people don't do it at all. And even people like me who try to do it, I don't like flossing.

I frequently will skip a night because I'm just like, I can't be bothered to floss right now. It doesn't feel exciting. It's not fun, even though it is as close to that incredible magical pill as I am ever going to get. The reason I think about flossing so much is not because I'm thinking about my teeth.

It's because I feel like a lot of the ways, that we could tangibly improve ourselves and tangibly impact the world around us. They're kind of like flossing. Sure, they're effective. Sure, it would make a difference. But it's kind of annoying to do. It's certainly not exciting. It's not fun.

And today's guests, they want to change that. They are scientists who study human behavior, and they are trying to solve the problem that most people think that combating climate change, one of the most important things we can do for our survival as a species, is not especially fun. They think that the key to saving ourselves in the planet is not about depriving ourselves, but about finding ways to make things more exciting. Elizabeth Dunn and Jay-Z are the co-authors of the new book Leave the Lights on,

How Joyful Decisions Can Save Our Species. And here's a clip from Jay-Z's TED Talk explaining their idea. Hi, everyone. I'm Jay-Z. Not the cool rapper, but the professor trying to cool the planet through behavior change. The other day, I gave my students an assignment. I asked them to come up with individual actions they can take

that serve two functions, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and make themselves feel happier. They did a great job coming up with actions to reduce emissions, but they had a much harder time with the happiness part. One student told me that he wanted to cut back on cheese, but right after he said that, he got really sad.

Unfortunately, my students are not alone. When most people think about climate action, they immediately default to things that have to give up for the planet. This mindset is so ingrained in us, partly because the current narrative on climate action is about personal sacrifice. Drive less, eat less meat, shop less.

Less, less. Now, I'm a behavior scientist, so trust me when I say this, this framing doesn't make us feel great. If anything, it makes us feel shameful and guilty. And those negative emotions are not conducive to long-term behavior change, because they make us retreat and disengage. If the future of a planet depends on a few people

willing to make personal sacrifices, we're not going to make it. So what should we do instead? The aha moment came to me at the end of a faculty meeting when my colleague Elizabeth Dunn approached me and asked, can we make climate action feel happy instead of miserable? I said, of course. But then it struck me that I don't think anyone ever connected happiness

to climate action. So Liz and I sat down to do exactly that. We are going to hear a lot more about Jay-Z and Liz's ideas for how to make effective change. also feel like a lot of fun in just a moment. And we are back. Today, we're talking about how to get ourselves and others to make the necessary choices we need to make by having a lot more fun. Hi, I'm Elizabeth Dunn. I'm a happiness researcher and a professor at the University of British Columbia. Hi, I'm Jay-Z. I'm a climate behavior scientist at the University of British Columbia.

And we're the authors of the new book, Leave the Lights on. Okay, so Jay-Z, Liz, how do you two start working together? So it all started with a bike ride. I was biking to work at UBC and I was thinking about climate change, as you do. And I was thinking about how it's kind of a bummer that my life's work on happiness has no bearing whatsoever on the most important existential challenge of our time, namely climate change. And then I started thinking about biking. And I started thinking how, you know, I choose to bike because I arrive at the office in a much better mood than if I drive. But of course, it's also one of the most sustainable forms of transportation. And then it sort of dawned on me that, in fact, so many of the things that we need to do in order to fight climate change are actually good for our own happiness. So when I got to work, I made a B-line for Jay-Z, who's really one of the world's leading experts on the behavioral side of climate change, and I kind of spilled out this idea to her. So Liz asked me this question. Can we make climate action feel happy instead of miserable? And that question gave me a light bulb moment in my head. That's when I realized happiness is the missing ingredient in the fight against climate change.

And you talk in the book about how that was something you hadn't actually thought about much before at all. I have never heard the word climate change and happiness in one sentence. And in a lot of ways, I mean, there's a very funny passage in the book where you talk about why you two are kind of an odd match to be working together, even though you were friends. And why are you an odd match, Jay Z? Well, I work on behavior change and I was deep in the doom and gloom narrative. And in fact, I think the day Liz talked to me, I saw a headline of like the warmest record. of the year, you know, one of those negative headlines. And I was, again, trying to figure out what should we do. And I haven't even thought about the idea of joy or happiness. I kind of

represent the typical approach to climate change and how behavior science can contribute to that. And Liz brings her happiness lens and expertise. And I had never even thought these two go together. So, Liz, I feel like a lot of times when we're dealing with a serious issue, there is this idea that if we make it fun or if we focus on enjoyment that we're kind of cheapening the issue, right? Climate change is really serious. A lot of people could die, could lose their homes, could lose their livelihoods, it's going to exacerbate inequality. There's all these reasons why it's not funny or fun. But your research has shown that that actually is maybe more important that we find the fun in it rather than less.

Yeah, and I think people misunderstand happiness. People think of happiness as being this very self-focused, self-interested emotion. And in fact, what some of my research shows is that actually doing good things for others and for the world is actually a really powerful source of happiness. And so happiness is both a result of doing good things, and it can be an engine for doing good things because happiness can be very energizing. So when we feel happy, we're more likely to think of novel creative solutions to problems. And we feel sort of capable of taking action. Is that because, like, happiness is actually this fleeting goal? And if we try and pursue something that's meaningful, then we actually find happiness along the way.

Or is it because happiness as a goal in itself is a valid goal and this is the way to get it. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's kind of a difference there. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just to do with the nature of positive emotions. So if you think about a time where you felt really happy, right? it's energizing. You feel like you can, you know, go get things done, right?

Versus I think, you know, a problem in the climate change movement right now is that a lot of people feel demoralized and for good reason. But when people feel depressed, they don't get stuff done. And so I think happiness can kind of renew our energy. It can also be really helpful as a buffer against stress. So we're more capable of sort of dealing with stress and setbacks if we can kind of generate some positive emotion, we can actually bounce back faster. So if we want, for example, our climate activists to be really successful, we need to inject some joy for them. So Jay-Z, you're someone who obviously cares a lot about climate change. I mean, you have spent years thinking about this.

You dedicated your professional life to this. How has thinking about the happiness side of it and trying to inject some joy into the work, how has it changed, like your personal experience of working on climate change? So I think of happiness is the first principle of behavior. change. It's true for, you know, warms like sea elegans to pigeons to fish to mammals. This is how we train our pets, train our children. This is happiness is nature's reinforcer. If you do something and you feel happier, you're going to do it again. And you can do it more. You can do other things that also brings you happiness. This is how I think of, you know, how to give people to change their behavior is you need to reinforce their behavior. And that's the missing element of the climate action

that we try to champion these days, we tend to capitalize on emotions like guilt or shame or anger or anxiety to get people to act on climate. That is not the right approach. So the way I've been approaching this personally, I predict this will make me happier so I do it. But if I feel that you're trying to use shame or guilt, trying to get me to do something for a different purpose or reason,

then I would probably not do it. Let me give you example. eating more fruits and vegetables. I never thought eating a plant-based diet will increase happiness. And this is actually, we'll get into a whole chapter in the book. As I now,

I increase significantly my veggie and fruits intake every day. And I do feel great. So at least personally, and I try to tell everybody around me, do something that brings you joy, that makes you come alive. And that's the energy we need for, you know, for the climate.

I'd heard a lot about how we need to individually make changes. to stop the climate crisis. And then I heard this whole backlash where it was like, actually, that whole idea that individual actions, that your individual carbon footprint matters, that is a whole distraction

that's been pushed by big oil companies, right? Like BP funded this whole campaign. So then I heard actually what you individually do doesn't matter. What matters is what the government and what corporations do. So the rest of it is a distraction. And I think your work together

strikes this really interesting line between those two, where it's not saying that it should be on an individual to solve the whole climate crisis, but it's also not saying that an individual choice doesn't matter at all. Can you kind of walk us through where the line is between the two? Because I hadn't heard this before in talking about climate action. So our view is they complement each other. Climate activists actually don't really like our work for the reason being.

They think it's, you know, by promoting individual action is a distraction as, you know, the traditional narrative from system change, from what we need from government and businesses. And I think that's a false dichotomy. I think they really complement each other. So far we've been pushing governments and businesses on climate, reduce emissions. That hasn't got us far. And I think the missing element is the collective individual behavior change. And that can take many forms. So, for instance, it could be people calling on governments. We spend the last chapter on collective action or spirals. How do you make yourself contagious?

So we can, you know, get others on board. That's the start of a social movement. The contagious idea, this is a way that an individual action can have a much broader effect. So this is something that was new to me, right? This is so different than saying what you need to do is turn the light off. That's what's going to solve climate change. is every time Chris leaves the room, Chris turns the light off. And that, I think, can lead to a lot of people, right, me included, to feel like, oh, shame on you. You're being scolded. No, no, no. And you even

talk about how you had a boyfriend who was not me, but also named Chris, who would constantly scold you when you didn't turn the light off when you off the room. And you talk about how in the big picture, that doesn't make a huge difference. But the contagious effect of one person doing something, this is really fascinating to me. And you talk about how if you are in a neighborhood and you, you you put up a solar panel on your roof, there's a lot of data that shows that that is actually not an individual action only. Can you explain why that is? Yeah. So if you install solar panels on your roof, your neighbor is more likely to install solar panels. And in fact, people who drive by and see your house can be influenced as well. So we actually don't realize how much

our own choices are influencing those around us. And this is where joy is a really interesting catalyst because if you're doing something that actually looks really enjoyable, that it's going to be more attractive. So Jay-Z, for example, just bought an EV that is really cool. And now I desperately want one. And she loves it. She's always talking about how great it is. And so this is, you know, making her behavior extremely contagious to me.

So if we can embrace some of these actions and be excited about them and share that excitement with others, it makes others want to copy us. I feel like the times when I feel worst about climate action are when I am cleaning out a peanut butter container. Yes. Like that actually is when I'm like, oh, God, I need to clean the peanut butter out of the container so that I don't just throw it away because that will make me a bad person. And that's when I feel like so frustrated. And then the times when I feel best, actually are when I'm not thinking about climate at all, but I'm doing something that I now realize is good. And here's an example of the contagious effect is I have to drop my kid off at their preschool.

And I used to drive, even though it's close enough that I probably could walk, but there's a really big hill. And so it would be, it would be a hard walk in a stroller. And then a lot of the other parents I noticed were biking. And they had their kid in the back in a kid seat. And so it took me a little while. But eventually I thought, okay, I'll do the research and I'll get a kid's seat on the bike. And I did not do this because I thought this will lower my carbon footprint or will make me more sustainable. But I started doing it because all the other cool parents were doing it.

And then I had a great time. and my kid has a great time going to school on the bike. And I read your book and realized, oh, that is actually an example of where someone who maybe was doing it for the climate reason, then influenced all the other parents at the preschool. And now there's this whole social pressure to ride your kid on a bike, which actually is a really fun way to get them to school. Yeah, I think that's a perfect example. And it also highlights something that's really important about the interaction between individuals and systems, right? So, you know, it wouldn't be fair to ask a parent to put their kid on a bike in an area where it was unsafe to ride a bike, right? And so this is where it's extremely important for governments and communities to, for example, install, create, you know, safe, protected bike lanes or special bike roads.

And then, you know, for individuals to actually take advantage of it, right? Because if governments build these things, but nobody uses them, it doesn't go anywhere, right? So I think the sort of ideal situation is where governments invest in. that kind of infrastructure, you know, maybe a few parents say, oh, this seems safe enough. I'm going to put pop my kid on this bike and we're going to bike to school. And then they arrive looking in a great mood. The kids all smiles. And you're like, oh, why am I driving?

Like, I can start doing this too. And then we get that upward spiral. And that's exactly the kind of sort of joyful climate action that we want to see. Okay. We are going to take a quick break and then we will be right back. And we are back. You know, again, thinking about the individual responsibility versus. the corporate and the government responsibility, that's kind of like a really easy for me to latch

onto a way of like, it's probably pretty hard for me to make the United States of America, make a giant energy investment as an individual. But it's actually totally reasonable that I as one dedicated person could get my local city council member to at least consider painting a bike lane on the street. That feels a lot closer to like I could actually have an effect on that. The other part, though, of the the dichotomy between like individual action and corporate action that you all talk about that I thought was really compelling is the idea that we may not all have the immediate levers to power for every corporation or for every large institution. But many of us actually do have a lot more power in our specific place that we work. And a lot of times people aren't thinking about that. And there's this example you give of a gas, which I'd never heard of called desflurane gas.

can you tell the story of desolate gas? Because I think that really illustrates for me how an individual can have a huge effect on the climate crisis. And it may be a way that people don't necessarily think that they have power. Yeah. So this is a study from our friend Andrea McNeil, who is a physician, a surgeon at Vancouver General Hospital. So what she discovered, first of all, was a lot of the anesthesia gas that she uses for surgeries is horrible for the climate. So desflurane, I think, in particular, is, I think, thousands of times more potent than CO2, and it leaks. So it actually leaks more than they use for surgery. So what she did in her study that we conducted together was she just swapped out, you know, where the gas tank was placed in the hospital. So you can't really ban it, but what they did in the hospital is they make that desfloorine gas tank slightly harder to reach for, the surgeons or the anesthesiologist. And they replaced it with something that's better for the climate. They put the alternative as the easier-to-reach option. So now I think surgeons just use that gas as default. And it's actually more effective and it's better for the climate. So it's a simple

kind of a swap just by placement in the room can make a huge impact on both the clinical efficacy and also climate. I think, you know, these times where it's like everyone wins, right? Like you swap out the gas that is really bad for the climate with one that is better for the patients and better for the climate. Those are really easy to celebrate. But even in a win, win, win, it's hard sometimes to do it. And so what I love about that story is that someone was thinking like, well, why do we

use this thing that is I've learned as bad for the climate? Is it actually necessary? Could I in my own workplace just say, like maybe let's prefer a slightly better option? And that option can have really outsized effects, especially if you work at a hospital. Now, this is a hard question. I don't know that there's like an easy answer to this. But if people are listening to this and they're thinking, like, how can I find my version of desfluorine gas? Like, how do people go about looking for that without being a PhD in climate change?

Without knowing like this random gas is actually really bad. How can you do that in your own life? One example of the gas is money. Okay. So one thing we discover. This is actually one of the biggest biggest surprises we learn in the book is it's not so much what you buy,

it's where you keep your money. So every thousand dollars you keep in a savings account in one of the major U.S. or Canadian banks is generating the same amount of carbon emissions as one flight from New York to Seattle. The reason being the banks are using your money to invest it in fossil fuel industries, and that's why it's generating,

it's almost secondhand, emitting a lot of carbon or greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. A lot of people don't know that. They thought, oh, I should be careful with what I buy, what I purchase. Maybe I should not fly. Great. Not flying is helpful. But if you have savings account in a typical bank in North America, that is where

you're desflowing gas is. It actually has the biggest carbon impact of your money or investments than any shopping that you can do. Okay, so let me ask you just like practically. I have some money in a savings account. It's not like a giant amount of money, but like I have some money in a savings account. If I move that money, where should I move it? And should I say something?

Like should I call the bank and be like, hey, by the way, the reason you're not getting my small chunk of change is because of climate change? So I've done that with my bank. I literally, I did not call them up because they never answer. Okay, yeah, classic. I walked in, I talked to them to say, you know, hey, what are you doing with my investments? And they are obviously being incredibly avoided. Oh, well, you know, we're doing what?

We're giving you a return of whatever, like 10% in the last couple of years. I don't know. That's not my question. Like, where are you investing my money? And then they said, well, we can't really trace your individual investments. So they give me a bunch of examples. And they say, you know, actually, you're all paperless. So you have all electronic communication with us,

so you're saving a lot of carbon by not using paper. That is not what I ask about where my money goes. So they would never give you a right answer if they're not doing the right thing or the climate-friendly thing. Whereas Liz's bank is entirely different. So I Googled this just very, and this is a great easy, easy thing you can do

without having to make any phone calls is just Google, you know, does my bank type in the name of your bank, does my bank invest in oil, gas, or coal companies? And, you know, when I Googled that for my credit union, which is a really wonderful climate-friendly credit union, the very first link contained a clear and unambiguous statement. We do not invest in oil, gas, or coal companies. I'm like, perfect. Honestly, if your bank has the answer you want, it is not complicated. And, you know, I will be the first to say, as a happiness researcher, that, like, switching banks does not sound like the most fun way you could possibly spend a Saturday.

But here's the thing is you do it once and you reap the carbon savings for years. So particularly, I think if you're somebody who loves steak and international travel, then switching banks might actually be a more joyful alternative for you than changing your diet or your travel. Do you think that because the two of you are involved in behavioral science, that you are less interested in moral purity and more interested in results? Do you think that that is a byproduct of your work? We actually have the exact title in the book called Moralization. Wait, math is better than moralization.

I think we tend to moralize climate change and a lot of social issues. And I think that's the kind of the tactics of climate action is moralize it. This is the right thing to do. This is, you know, for generations to come, we have to do this. Again, I think that's kind of productive. That's not resonating for, I would say, more than half of the population. It's resonating a lot for climate activists. That's why that's a predominant narrative out there.

But why moralizing is bad, I think other than polarization, we should look at the kind of the common ground that's kind of shared by most people, which is they actually don't really care about the moral issues here. They care about what this matters to them. Okay, so what we try to do in the book is offer them facts. this is the kind of carbon emissions of different things, of the different items, behaviors, choices that you make. With this menu available to them, they can make the right choices, well, not right. The best choices, given their circumstances. So that's why with facts of emissions can be empowering. Because given where you are, your income, you're, you know, where you live, you can really improve your happiness and actually make a real dent on carbon emissions.

this is the thing that I wrestle with because I like the moral purity of like what we are doing is good and to not do this as bad. But then I don't always do it all the way. And if I don't do it all the way, I sometimes fall into the trap of being like, should I even do it at all? And I think a lot of people are probably like me where it's like, you know, I will not eat any meat at all. And then if I slip and have a turkey sandwich, then it's like, well, I might as well just eat hamburgers for the next three months. And that's actually not, like, logically that doesn't track, but emotionally it tracks for me. When I think about, for example, like, you talk a lot in the book about how one of the biggest, most impactful choices we can make is what we eat, right?

That if you were to switch to a fully plant-based diet, it would make a really big difference. But even just cutting back on meat. And when I think about it for myself, right, like, if you ask me, why are you not vegan, Chris? I don't have a good answer. Like, I'm like, yeah, it seems like it would be probably better for. for my health and certainly better for animals and probably better for the environment. And like, I just don't do it. Well, partly because vegan food sucks.

But some of it is really good. Well, some, some. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you live in a Buddhist temple, they have the best vegan food out there, I'd say. If I live in the temple, I would eat vegan every day. Yeah. But the thing, the reality is, at least in North America, it's hard to find vegan food. And, too, if you find vegan food, they don't taste that great.

I mean, you would do it once or twice, just show off, oh, you know, I eat a plant-based meal. But it's not going to last. The thing is moral, like the virtual signaling, anything you do for moral reasons, it's not sustainable if you don't truly believe in it. I want to push back on that just a second. And please tell me if I'm wrong. But I have several friends who are vegan for moral reasons. And they have been vegan for years. And even just knowing them, it actually does make me think twice.

before I purchase meat. And it's not that I don't do it, but I think like, well, what would my friend Zach think? What would my friend Nikki think, right? Like, I do think like, oh, they would not approve of this. And I think there's something kind of helpful about that. But then I'm not. But if I do, I think if you look, if you talk to me 10 years from now and I'm vegan, I'll look back and I'll go, well, that was the seed that planted me becoming vegan.

But I think if you are doing something because of the fear of scolding and social judgment or looking bad in other people's eyes, I think that can really lead you to even not want to know. So I was chatting with somebody yesterday about our work, and he was interested in travel, but then he was like, actually, no, I don't want you to talk to me about travel because you're going to tell me not to fly. Yeah, yeah, don't tell me.

I don't want to know, right? And so it's that I don't want to know, I don't want the information, I don't want to be told, I don't want to hear about this anymore, that I think is a problem. And what I said to him is actually, I'm not going to tell you not to fly. Like, let me tell you how to fly better. Obviously, if you want to give up flying completely, that's going to make a huge positive difference in terms of your carbon impact.

But if you just get into the math, you can make more sort of fine-grained decisions that really do make a difference. So, you know, I think sometimes we think of flying, the way we think about eating meat where it's like, oh, well, I'm stepping on a plane, so I might as well go to Thailand. You know, I'm going to have this bite of this turkey sandwich. I'm going to eat five burgers, you know. And in fact, it's just wrong, right? So in fact, short flights don't really make much of a difference in terms of carbon impact.

So if you want to go somewhere on vacation, but you're going to take an hour-long flight, it's actually pretty trivial in terms of the carbon impact. It's really those long-haul international flights that make a difference. You know, another small thing you can do is taking nonstop flights. So it's really the takeoff that is disproportionately carbon-intensive. So just, you know, sometimes it costs a little bit more. you might have the fewer options, but just investing in that nonstop flight is going to both save you time, which is great, and also cut your carbon. And so, again, I think if we can say to people, hey, look, I'm not going to moralize here and say you can't do these things that you enjoy.

Instead, like, let's just look at the math and figure out how you can have the lifestyle that you want in a little bit lower carbon way. This is also where I'm interested in the you two thinking about it from like a behavioral science perspective, right? because when you're thinking about the results rather than what is like the purest answer, you actually find some ways that you can make a really significant impact. I think that when it comes to food, the label system that you were helped implement and the University of British Columbia Dining Hall around the carbon cost of each meal, that is a really interesting story to me where you see like the cost of purity, right, where if you just do it as good versus bad versus the cost of more,

information moving us in the right direction. Can you tell the story about those labels? Yeah, so I worked with the chefs at UBC to introduce carbon labels on the menu. So the students are informed about the carbon intensity of their choices. So we put up red, yellow, green, so just like traffic lights, of different dishes. So red being the most intensive, green being the best for the climate. And what we found was after introducing the menu, the yellow dishes increased the most. So the green dish is increased, but not a ton. The reason being, when they know this is the red dish, this is the food with the highest emissions, like mostly like a burger, they're surprised. They didn't know that. And then they switched the next best thing, as opposed to going completely

falafel or, you know, a vegan choice. Because vegans are less than 1% of the population. It's hard to stay vegan. So yellow, increased red decline, and that's the finding. And it's a very kind of subtle, implicit cue that we introduced to the environment that shaped people's choices significantly. It's not to shame them. It's not to say, no, don't do that, eat this instead. I think just that information alone has impact on behavior. And it lasts. We didn't have a huge pushback from the students. They actually like it. They want to see more of it. So if you can get people from a destructive choice to a less destructive choice. This is where like that's the cost of purity, right? It's easy to say, well, they should all do green. But what they really should do is not do red. And I think striving for perfection is exhausting, right? So I actually don't want you to spend time scraping the peanut butter out of your jar. It's not going to make that much of a difference. And it just sort of makes you hate life and want to find reasons to not believe in climate change, right? It's like, and so instead just thinking like, hey, if there's little things that you can do that do make a difference and actually are

perfectly enjoyable, you know, then those are just going to be so much easier to stick with. I think one of the other things that people often don't realize as a big climate choice is where we live and how we live, right? So like, not just do we drive, but do you have kids? Do you have pets? Those kinds of big identity questions. And this is a place, I think, where that like purity really rubs people the wrong way, right? Because you tell me, like, I can't live in my community or I'm not supposed to have kids or I'm not supposed to have a pet. That's where people say, like, I just am going to draw a line here. But this is where I think that next best option is a really, to me, like feels like a real possibility for getting a lot more people on board with making changes,

which would have a huge impact together. Yeah, I mean, I think people love pets. Pets are one of the best things you can do for your happiness, to be honest. Okay, we got to talk about your pet. So my, sure, I have two rabbits. They're vegan, so they're great. But, but, But last year we adopted a dog. So dogs and cats are notorious for climate reasons because they're mostly carnivores. They eat a lot of beef and lamb diet. But my dog actually, of course, she has to eat some protein. I actually fed her seafood and poultry mostly.

These are low carbon and she loves it. But it also helps that she's somewhat not, her stomach is sensitive to beef. So that makes it easier to switch. But I think there are still things that we can do, even if you have. children or pets or live in the most carbon intensive states, you can still, there are still things that you can do to lower your emissions. There are smart tradeoffs we need to make in our lives that I think can substantially lower our impact on the environment. So thinking clearly of, you know, how many kids to have, maybe not seven. I think Liz, you said the magic number

is two, is that right? Yeah, I mean, in terms of happiness, it looks like, you know, having one or two kids is good for happiness. Three or more, we start to see it flip around a little bit. And, you know, I think this notion that if you care about climate change, you shouldn't have kids is really a mistake. Because for one thing, like, having kids is part of the magic of life. And so to tell people that you shouldn't do that just seem self-defeating. And also, we want our species to survive. It's not the planet is going to be fine. The planet is going to be here. It's like our species and other species that we should be concerned about. And so, you know, We want people to keep having kids.

And in fact, Jay-Z, one of her students, actually published the sort of seminal article that's been cited as, you know, in the media as suggesting that people should not have children if they care about climate change. And that was never what he meant to communicate. Yeah, it was really have one fewer child. I also just say, as a parent to two children, that there are many reasons not climate change related, why I would say having three or more children seems really difficult. So I admire the ability to do it, but I also think that not the hardest argument in the world to me. Let's talk about just like a regular person who's listening to this. What should they do to make some changes for themselves, but also what should they do to make some changes that would have an impact on their community? Yeah, I mean, so one thing is to think about, you know, where are you choosing to live?

And of course, you know, you may be very committed to the community in which you live, and that's not on the table for you. But in fact, the average American moves about a dozen times in their lives. So when you're thinking about moving, even just taking climate into account, and it turns out, you know, it's just incredible the difference in your carbon impact that you have is a function of where you choose to live. So, for example, if you run an air conditioner in a typical living room for a week here in BC, because we have clean energy, you're going to emit about eight pounds of carbon. So like the weight of a newborn baby. You run that same air conditioner for a week in Wyoming. You're going to emit 1,000 pounds of carbon. So like the weight of a full-grown horse.

To the extent that you have some choice about where to live, choosing to live in a place with clean energy is going to make a massive difference for your carbon impact. And by making that choice, you're actually sending a signal. So when we choose to leave a place that has dirty energy and move to a place that has clean energy, we are sending an important signal to governments that, hey, this is a factor that people care about. That's an interesting example of something people

don't necessarily think about, but they can make a huge difference. And although it's an individual choice, it actually exerts pressure on governments too. And it also makes me think, right, like if you live in Wyoming and you want to stay living in Wyoming, then the answer is like, how do you make it so that your energy sources get cleaner? But if you don't feel attached to being in that place, then how can you move to a place where your energy sources already are cleaner? And both of those are going to have really big impacts on climate change in the long run. It's not that you're doomed if you're living Wyoming. There's still things you can do to lower your impact. For example, if you can afford to switch to renewable energy, that's number one for your home.

Two is just get an EV. Even driving an EV in a kind of a carbon intensive state can still reduce your emissions by at least a third in the U.S. I want to ask you about the role of like creativity because I feel like creativity and fun is a real big piece of happiness, but it's also obviously something that you two care about, right? Being creative about how we imagine the future, being creative about how we imagine our current lives and how that can lead to a better future. So broadly, will you talk about creativity? But then more specifically, will you tell me a little bit about the Tooney Party, which I think is a good example of creativity? There's a lovely tradition in Canada of having a Tooney party. So our $2

coins are called Tunis. And I started throwing these for my son. when he was little. And the idea is that, you know, when you're going to a million children's birthday parties, you're constantly buying these like random Lego sets or whatever that who knows if the kid is ever even going to play with them. Huge waste of materials, you know, often the kid just ends up crying at some point as they're like overwhelmed by everything. And so the idea with the tunie party is that instead of bringing a gift, each kid comes with a tunie. And then And the birthday kid gets to keep half the tunis for themselves and then they give half the tunis away to a charity of their choice. So I did this with my son when he was younger and he decided on the SPCA as his organization where he wanted to donate.

And actually, you know, one thing we did was we actually went to the SPCA and brought in like this giant pile of tunis that he'd collected from all his friends. And he got to meet the dogs that he was helping. it's no accident that I study generosity and happiness. Like I kind of know how to do this. You want them to see the impact of their good deed. But it's really just like a beautiful win-win for everybody because it's sort of a learning experience for the kid. They get to have this positive experience of generosity. They get to buy one thing for themselves that they really like.

So, you know, my son will take his half of the tunis and get the like overly fancy soccer ball that he's been coveting. And then no parents have to spend their precious Friday night desperately shopping for that stupid, Lego set that like this other kid is probably never going to play with. And so, you know, I think it's just a beautiful way to say, hey, we can cut back on waste and make things more joyful for everybody. I love that. How we became creative was with our EV. We loved our EVs so much when we bought it that now we pimped it. And now it's the only bright, hot pink EV in Vancouver. People were taking photos, they stare. And I'm like, what are you? you stare at. Oh, yeah, it's pink. That's why you cannot ignore it. Everybody sees it. And the other reason is

it's safer. Pink makes the car safer because everybody sees it. You basically, this is how you make yourself contagious. You drive around your EV, show off, and then show off in this hot pink car. That's just one creative insight my partner had. And I'm like, yeah, it's a great idea. Make yourself really, you know, contagious. Of course, you have to have fun in the process and do something that's unusual, that's creative, so it will catch attention. Well, Jay-Z, Liz, thank you so much for being on the show. This was such a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, that is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Before we go, we have a listener survey that is still going. We are looking for more responses. We need more feedback. It will help impact the future of this show. Tell us what topics you want us to

focus on. Tell us what you love. Tell us what you wish we would do differently. You can find that link and go right to the survey in the episode description, wherever you're listening to this. Or you can go to bit.le slash BH. Surveysix. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It would be a huge favor to me and the people who work on the show if you would give us your feedback there. Thank you as well to our guests on today's episode, Jay-Z and Elizabeth Dunn. Their book is called Leave the Lights on, and you can find out more about their book and both of them at their website, happyclimate.org. That's happyclimate. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book is called Humor Me. You can find out more about my book and all of my other projects on my website, which is chris duffycom.

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