Inside Late Night: Ian Karmel
00:01from late-nighter.com, it's Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff.Welcome to Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff for Late Nider.Today we talked to Ian Carmel about writing for James Corden, going on Conan, and so much more.Ian Carmel, nice to see you, sir.Nice to see you. How are you doing?I'm doing well. You know, there are very few people that I'm aware of that were good,almost right away doing stand-up comedy.A lot of people that I talked to that started with John Stewart, say John Stewart,
00:47Dimitri Martin was another person I saw.Michael Che was very quickly.And you were one of these people in Portland within two months.You win this contest.And then within a year, you win Best Comedian in Portland, correct?That is correct.It happened very fast.Although I think I was in a smaller pool than like Michael Chey and John Stewart.
01:08But still, I mean, if there was a lot of competition, you got a lot of press and you get to the Montreal Comedy Festival and that Chelsea lately people are very impressed.They invite you to be on the show.And is that when you moved to Los Angeles?That is right when I moved to Los Angeles.So when I got Newfaces, Montreal New Faces, at that point, I was like, I think I probably need to move to L.A.And then Newfaces, which goes different ways for different people.I had a very, very good experience that I met the Chelsea lately people.I got my first agent while I was there.
01:45It went, it went great.And then they wanted me to have me on the panel.And then doing the panel turned into my first writing job, which was on Chelsea lately.And you moved to L.A., this is the second time.You moved back to L.A.There have been years in between, and within five days, you get a writing gig.That's right.Wow.
02:06It's the, it's, I have sensed.been told by people other comedians who were in Portland that me and then Ron Funches,who's another stand-up comedian who moved down from Portland, gave people the impression thatL.A. would be a lot easier than it actually was. You know, because it's like, it was still really,I mean, the job was really hard, but like he was successful very quickly. And I got a job.It would be easy, like, to try to be conceded about it, but it was just like very, through pure,happenstance that they needed a writer, they saw me, you know, on this panel. And then Chelsea,I love Chelsea Handler. And I think, I, like, I used to be a much fatter dude back then. I'm still
02:49kind of a fat dude. I think she was kind of fascinated by, like, people who were like differentshapes. This is maybe kind of a weird way to put it. I think she thought I was funny and theproducers thought I was funny. But I'm also like, I think the part of her was like, this is aninteresting sized person that we don't have on the show. And I kind of,to think that played into it,um,to my,to my,
03:11to my,to my great benefit.Um,but I got a job right away there.Yeah.Was that your first writing gig?And what was the,the learning curve that any learning curve is,
03:21um,writing for somebody else?That was my first writing gig.Yes.Especially writing,yeah,writing for someone else.Stand up obviously.
03:29Writing for yourself.Um,yeah,it was a pretty steep learning curve.Luckily the team there,you know,Jen Kirkman,Chris,
03:38Franjola.There were a bunch of really great, I mean, kind of everybody.This guy, Dean, what is Dean's last name?I'll look at it.But Dean Ward.Dean Ward was a writer there who I was partnered with.Everyone was very, very helpful and collaborative and patient with me.And it made it a lot easier because, you know,
04:03anytime you go into a writer's room,especially one that's been around for,you know, that one had been around for seven years,I think by the time I got there,I was just there for the last year of the show.You know, they have their own language.They have their own, you know,we know this will work because of something
04:21that happened six years ago on episode 32.We know this won't work because of somethingthat happened on a remote shoot, you know,like two and a half years ago.And, you know, like, you don't know that going in.So it's the good thing,because you're kind of bright-eyed and you're like,I have this head full of ideas and, you know,
04:39I'm not like self-censoring.But it's a bad thing too because you might pitch somethingthat they've done a million timesor that you know you're not supposed to dobecause the host is sensitive about XYZ.But it was kind of,I think by the time I got there,they knew, Chelsea knew she didn't want to do the show for much longer.
04:57It was on for just a year by the time I got there.And that made it very,it was hard to fail because they weren't going to fire me because they were, you know,kind of like running out the string. And I was good on the panel. So it was kind of the perfectenvironment. It was a very, it was like a safe harbor for me to learn how to be a late night writer.That's so nice when you go back to LA because, you know, the first time you're takingground lanes classes, you're working at P.F. Shanks. Now, is it that in LA when you were workingfor Netflix as an operator and you got fired? Was that in L.A.?
05:32That was in between the two.After I, that was in Portland, Oregon.Portland, Beaverton, where I'm from specifically,had the Netflix call center,which is,which is kind of the best job I never haduntil I got Chelsea lately.How did you get fired from the gig?
05:49What do you have to do to get fired from?I called in sick a lot.Because I had started doing stand-up,and my Netflix shift was 4 a.m.to 1 p.m.So it was rough and I was doing a ton of stand-up at that point.So I would go to work from four to one and then I would get off, come home and write for a couple hours and then go to sleep for a couple hours and then wake up and do stand-up and you're out until like midnight doing stand-up.And I would come home and go to sleep.
06:25So I was sleeping in like Leonardo da Vinci style, you know, two-hour blocks and then trying to like.work in the meantime. So I ended up calling it sick a lot if I had a big gig or an out-of-town gig,and eventually they kind of got tired of it, which was totally understandable.Because they let you go, but then they come back and they want to work with you as a comic,so it's a happy ending with you and Netflix. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.2015, how do you get the meeting with James Gordon to be a potential writer?Did they know who you were as a performer? Did you do a writing packet?So it's it's I did do a writing packet.
07:05But it was kind of, I mean, it's a happy tale of Hollywood packaging.I think CAA represented creative artist agency, represented James at the time.So I think CAA writers got, they were like he went to his agent and was like,who are your funniest writers?Or like who are your, which writers would you recommend for this show?And there were a bunch of us.There was a huge pool.And I think they went outside of CIS.
07:30as well. I guess now that I say that. But a ton of us met with James. I had a writer's packet,but I didn't turn in the writer's packet before I met with him. It was basically just likeshow up to this meeting with some ideas. And we met, we met like in the corner of a Soho housein L.A. This was 2015. So like a few Anglophiles knew who James was at the time.knew who James was? Yeah, that's right. Right? Is that, it's early. I think so.Knew who James were? Was. Anyway. Yeah. I knew him from, I knew him from Broadway. I mean,he was a big star in England, but I knew him, I saw him on Broadway and he's the most charmingperformer. So, yeah. But he, you know, he was pretty anonymous. People weren't really like
08:18turning their heads to look at him. So we met and we went over, like, my ideas. We ended upsitting and talking for like two hours, you know, like first about the ideas and thenjust kind of bullshitting for like two hours.Do you remember any ideas that you specifically pitched him?Yes.The show was a lot weirder at that point.Like we went in, you know,and I find that this happens with kind of like every new late night style show.
08:48And based on like talking to other writers who are on like brand new shows that are launching my own experiences,is that you always sort of think you're going to upset the Apple Cart andreinvent the form. And we, at that point, we're talking about, like, we're not even going to do amonologue. And one of the ideas I had that he liked was that we would have a time machine onstage. And every now and then, like, it would, like, fog over. And then you'd get, like, a UCB performerplaying Ben Franklin or, like, a historical figure to come out. And on the couch, you would have, like,you know, you would have, like Harrison Ford, an actor pretending to be Benjamin Franklin. And then,you know, like, I can't even think of my 30th.
09:32That's fun. I remember early on Conan. I know some of the Conan writers when they werebrainstorming that summer, they said that one of them was pitching the idea of having apetting zoo backstage, a permanent petting zoo in the studio with live animals. It never happened.But yeah, I know what you're saying. Conan said we're not going to do a traditional monologue. Thatlasted whatever, like it may be a year. Kimmel's like I'm not going to do a monologue ever. And theneventually he did. So I hear what you're saying. But that's a, that's fun, uh, fun, fun idea for sure, though.Yeah, that was, that was what you need, you need a model. Like everybody thinks you don't need it.Weirdly, it was, you know, it lasted until, you know, once we, the, it started with three riders, right?
10:15So before James moved over, before our executive producer, Ben Winston moved to America, it was me,this guy, Sean O'Connor and this guy James Davis in a portable trailer on the, uh,CBS Television City lot.That was it.That was it.It was three people, eventually more joined.But like for three weeks, starting in December, we launched sometime in March.We were in a portable trailer.
10:39Right next door was the drug testing trailer.So every now and then somebody would walk into our room holding a cup full of pee,being like, here you guys go.We were like, oh, one door over.But we were just like churning out ideas for like three weeks.You know, and like a day we were like no monologue, no monolog.So we were coming up with ideas for the top of the show, middle of the show, into the show.for the first few weeks
10:58when everybody got therewhen James Benwhen they hired more writersLauren Greenberg who ended up being like a writerof the entire run of the show other greatvery funny peoplewe weren't going to do a monologueand one day Jay Leno
11:13visited the setjust to sort of you know he was off airhe was coming just to say hihe likes being around late nighthe's just like sitting and like being around that energyand I remember he toldJames you needto do a monologue because you are welcoming America, you know what I mean, to your, basically
11:33to your living room. You're saying like, come on in and you need to have this sort of welcomingenergy. People are used to a monologue. Your monologue can do different things, but like you needto have a monologue. And like after that meeting, he was like, well, Jay Leno says we need to doa monologue. We're doing a monologue. And then we were doing a monologue. And then we tried to writea couple that were like stand-up bits, which I do think you can get away with, but the amountof labor that has to go into writing like a stand-up bit style monologue every single day. I thinkthey do it over on Seth with a closer look, which is topical, but like a one-topic thing.And it's, I forget that brilliant writer's name. Alex Bayes. Yeah, they write the, like,
12:18it's the entire thing just by themselves. Yeah, they're a, they're, they're,two of there. I mean, they're all really, really solid writers over there, but Bays is SethMyers called the greatest living joke writer. I think Sal Gentile, Sal Gentile. Sal Gentile.Yes, yes, Sal Jantile. Bayes is an amazing joke writer.Bays would send stuff in for like the Golden Globes that I've been working on withNikki Glazed over the last couple years. I'm like, yeah, she'll just be like, hey, do youhave any jokes? And then we'll get this like email.It's just like the entire time where you're like, well, fuck, I've been working for a month.
12:53and he just sends these in, you know what?He's a machine.Yeah, his story about him faxing and jokes to Saturday Night Live to update for yearsand not getting anything on and just keeping at it.I mean, it's an amazing success story.At what point did you come up with Crosswalk, the musical,which became really popular on the show?Pretty, pretty early.
13:16I came up with it pretty early.I used to, you know, we were in Television City,which is right there.by Fairfax kind of right on the beginning of West Hollywood.And I would go for these long walks to try to generate ideas.And this was before we were on the air.So the days were mostly like sitting around in a writer's room.Another trailer, just like trying to pitch ideas in your cramp quarters.
13:39Everybody's nervous.And I just knew.So like I was taking what little I knew about James,which was he'd done Broadway, you know.He'd want a Tony doing one man two governors.He'd been in the history boys.He could do musicals.and I was walking down Fairfax
13:56and there's this big,like right outside of Canter's Deli,this big crosswalkthat's like two lanescrosswalk.It's like a long,it's like 45 seconds.And I was like,
14:09oh, you know,you can do anything in a crosswalk.You have those 45 secondswhere it's just for pedestrians.And I thought you could doa song from a musicalin that crosswalk.And as long as you're out of there,
14:1945 seconds later,it's done.So I came up with it.just there on that spot.And I went back and we had a big pitch meeting.We had these pitch meetings that would go for like four hours early on that like startedreally exciting.And then by the third and fourth hour, it was just like brutal.
14:37Nobody wanted to be there.Not the writers, not James, not the executive producers, but we were still like, becauseeveryone had just been like, we were so excited about our ideas.But we were, I don't know if this is unique as a show, but we had.had before our very first show, in our, in our repertoire, we had crosswalk the musical.We had carpal karaoke. We had roll call, that thing where, you know, like you would havelike Tom Hanks and you would go through his entire movie career doing kind of like school play style,like props. And then it would switch without anyone moving like on a green screen. So we had all
15:17these ideas. Some of our desk bits we had at that point. Just from that first,like two, three months of writing before the show even started.And I think we did them all within our first week or so.Yeah, the blueprint was established very, very quickly, which was exciting.What was your favorite crosswalk, the musical?And what was that like the whole process of getting people to sign releases?I mean, drivers and people walking by.It was, so I'll answer you my favorite question later in this, but like just to talk about
15:52the production of it.It was like as old Hollywood,it was like a big set,including six PAs and like producerswho were running around frantically,like flagging cars over to the side of the roadbeing like, please sign a release,please sign a release.
16:12Because such a pivotal part of itwas getting these reaction shots and drivers, right?Like the piece itself was very interesting,but the laugh lines were cut to this driverbeing like,they're doing hair with Lynn Manuel Miranda like in the crosswalk. You know what I mean? So you needthose those shots and you know it was like such a showcase for our incredibly talented team fromour people who like built sets like old school like would build sets like a one of the ones I
16:42loved a lot was when we did the sound of music and you know you would build like a platform with fourbicycles on it with a mountain backdrop that would get wheeled out into the crosswalks.walk. So, you know, it had to look good and also be on wheels that could get wheeled back out.You have Allison Janney and James and other people like in a Ferris, I think, like on thesebicycles doing, you know, like, that was Doa Deere, I think, or whatever. And getting wheeled backout. The costumes were amazing and like we had to do like quick changes. So like our costumedepartment was like running at full capacity. Our like props are our set builders. And it was just likesuch a beautiful, I feel so lucky that I got to be part of that specifically.
17:28Because, you know, that's the thing, not to, I don't want to be like all like a down onthe future of late night. I think if you're paying attention or you're listening to this,you probably know what's going on with late night. But it was like so amazing to be there forsomething that felt like kind of like that had been happening in Hollywood for a long time.You know what I mean? Like part of the grand tradition of it. My favorite one ever.was probably when we didLe Miserables in Paris.Just because we were in Paris.
18:01We were like in front of the Arc de Triumph.I love the musical Le Miserables.I thought it was so funny doing that thingin front of French peoplewho just like kind of have thisI don't give a fuck attitude anyway.And they carry that into us doing Le Miserablesin front of them, which is like a musical
18:19that I don't think is important to the French peopleand is like kind of now that I think about it probably likeyou know what I mean like a bunch of French people doing a big American musicalwhere you're like what the fuck are you doing that's not what we're likeso the reaction shots were funny James I think was like on fire for that onethere was no celebrity guest so it was just him doing all these different partsand he was so so good and then you know we took a trainwe had to catch a train like an hour after we got done filming so it was truly like
18:49we're running. We're running offset. We're like running to the like to get like to the train.So it just had this really, really fun energy. And then I think the product itself is like really,really great. I think the lay Mzrab carpool is one of our best or crosswalk.I think Conan O'Brien's debut. You can compare it a little bit with James Corning. Conan was an unknown,even though James was huge over in London. For the most part, he was unknown to American audiences.What was his anxiety like that weekend?I know Tom Hanks came in to rehearse that bit that weekend.Roll call, yeah.
19:24That weekend and the day leading up to taping for the first show,what was James anxiety like?What do you recall from that day from that weekend?You know, like, the anxiety felt like centered on getting these bits rightand less on wanting the show to be a big smash hit.I mean, I'm sure he did.and like if I had been more inner circle at that point I'm sure I would have been privy you know by the end of the show I was headwriter with Lauren Greenberg and like in all those meetings and everything but you know like most of the anxiety was centered around like let's let's make sure these bits that we've come up with her as good as possible and I think one thing to James's credit that I've like really learned is not like sort of standard is that he will work as long and as long asas hard as it takes to get something right.
20:21And if he thinks there's like something in an idea that's goodand there's a kernel there that like he believes in,he's like creatively involved and will rehearse for as long as it takes to get it right.Which is also how I feel about like these bits.Is there an example?Yeah, like roll call.Like that one with Tom Hanks, you know, like that was not my bit.That was Lauren Greenberg's bit.
20:46but like they would work for like 24 hours straight on it and James was there you know what I meanlike it was it was really really solid for the first show with it with doing that yeah I couldn'tbelieve it yeah for sure like first it's crazy you know you know a little bit more about this upthan maybe your average person it's like to be able to pull something like that up and that's likea testament to again like our entire crew Lauren the writer but also like to have a host who willstay and rehearse and work that hard on it.And that work ethic was like also there in year seven.You know what I mean?
21:25Like going into year like our final year and everything.That was like in year eight.That was there until the very end of the show where it's like, yeah,I will stay literally all day just rehearsing this one bit because I think it's good.That first show was so ambitious.I remember him singing at the end.I mean, it was really incone did that out on his first show as well as I'm singing.But yeah, it was a big testament to everybody's work.
21:49How long into your tenure did you become a co-head writer?I think we were, I think that was like four years in, I think roughly.So I think we were the headwriters for the last four years of it.What was that learning curve like?Because not only are you working on current bits, but, you know, I read an interview and you said,you know, Will Farrell, you'd find out it's coming on in three weeks.And we have to have a, we want to do a bit with him.So you're basically juggling a lot of different tasks all at once.
22:17What was the learning curve like that for you for that?Becoming a head writer was, it was difficult at first.Because, you know, it's like a little bit of the Peter principle where you get, you know,promoted out of your expertise.Like I, my skill set is not organization.And it never, and it never has been like I'm somebody who is like,if you saw how many unread emailsI have on my computer, I get to all the important
22:47ones, but like, I show that tolike type A people and they have like a panic attackbecause it's a six figure number.And, but I'm good at like,if I get, like, I think I'm good at generatingideas and I'm really good at being on set and I'm goodat like pitching ideas on set.And as head rider, all of a sudden,
23:06when that first happened, it was like,oh, I have a lot less time for the things I'm really good at.And a lot more time doing the things.things that I'm not naturally very good at.And Lauren and I, I think to like Ben Winston and Rob Krabb and like the EP's credit,I mean, so many things to their credit, they were amazing at their jobs.But in this one specific case, knowing that Lauren and I sort of filled in each other'sgaps really well and promoting us together, once we figured out our rhythm on that kind of thing,
23:39it was like off to the races where, which is not to say Lauren wasn't,working on ideas. Lauren was also, you know,like running carpool and working on all sorts of good ideas,but we sort of like figured out this great harmony with each other.That also sounds like a thing where like a guy's like,I don't want to do the organization and then you like make the woman do it.You know what I realize that's what it sounds like.But truly she is like amazing at that stuff and my brain can't do it.
24:05I think the truth is Lauren's good at everything and I was good at a few things.But like it worked out really well.You went Emmys and you got to work with Mel Brooks.What was it like working with Melvin Kaminsky?Oh my God.It was not to sound grim.I mean,because it's crazy because he's still alive and kicking and working.
24:2399.99.I assumed I would never get the chance to work with him.Because I grew up like so many other people like devoted,you know,space balls or no.Min and Tights was probably the first movie I saw.And then like it exploded from there.
24:39I remember one of my friends had a space.baseball themed birthday party.Like, he's my favorite, to this day, he's my favorite funny person and probably justmy favorite actor, director, everything in general.I never thought, I was like, well, now you're in Hollywood, but there's no chance you'llget to work with him.And then we got an email, I remember.We were sitting in a creative meeting, and Ben was like, James, somebody was like,
25:06so I got the loveliest email from Mel Brooks.and he said that him and Carl Reiner,you know,famous before Carl passed,they would have those,they would get deliand they would sit aroundand watch TV,
25:19the two of them.I think like every day.Jeopardy, Wheel of Fortune,dinner together, yeah.Yeah,and they would,and they had like recorded our showand they would watch our show too,
25:28and they loved like the energy,energy of our show and how like,they said it felt like old late nightand, you know,like how things used to be in a really fun way.And that alone,I was like,holy shit that's like the best thing
25:42all ever here and thenhe was coming on the showand you know it was pretty early on in the show's runand I went toBen Winston and I was like heywhenever he comes on the showwould it be okay if I just met himlike would it be all right if I just like
25:58got to like said hello to himyou know it was weird on Chelsea latelythere was kind of this understandingthat you could just goto the famous person's dressing room and sayhello and I did it over and over and over againI met like Drake and Nellie and like Mike Tyson and all these, you know, like Kendrick Lamar,all these like rappers I like.
26:18But on the late late show is a little more, the dressing room is a little more closed off,especially with someone like Mel Brooks.But Ben not only said, yes, you can meet him.He was like, how would you like to work on an idea for him?And I was like, oh shit.Like, yes, I'd love to.And so James and I sat and we wrote what we thought would be like an old sort of likevaudevillian sort of sketch.
26:40which was just like two cops who speak only in like hard-boiled film noir slangwhile an entire bank robbery like unfolds behind them.And Melbrook's read it and he liked it and agreed to it.And then the greatest thing happened was which was during the taping of the sketch.Like the one that went out, he like broke in the middle of it.It was like, James, nothing in the sketch makes sense.sense. And while I was in the background, because I got cast as an extra in the background as like a cat burglar.And when he did that and like started laughing, I like almost broke. I like couldn't hold it because I was just like, I can't believe what my life is right now. This is so funny. And he was right. The sketch didn't make like 100% sense because I think I was so nervous about writing a sketch for Mel Brooks and I like overcooked it for sure. But I have like one of the few things in my office. Let me see if I can.
27:40my wife and I's office.My wife is so much more accomplished with me.So most of the stuff in the office is hers.But I have, let me see if I can grab it.Oh, that's fantastic.Yeah.Yeah, so that's a picture of me taking a selfie of me and Mel Brooks.Oh, I love that.
27:55That's fantastic.Yeah, he's such an amazing man.I'm excited.I see Spaceballs too, and he's still at it.You got to do so many surreal things on this job.You know, well, sometimes comedy writers when you're writing for TV,you're just in your office.But you really got to go all over the place.
28:14What was it like being at the military base outside of Los Angeles?It was decommissioned military base with Tom Cruise and James Corden with skydiving.So, yeah, we did, we went to, we did the decommissioned military base thing with Tom two times.The sky, one for that and then one for the top gun two where they fly planes.And the skydiving one, I mean, it was, it was crazy because it's Tombs.Tom Cruise, who at least like, doesn't seem like a person.It seems like, it feels like meeting Batman for real.You know what I mean?
28:50Like, you're like, I conceive of most actors as actual human beings who have real lives and go to sleep at night, you know, and have a baked potato every now and then.And Tom Cruise, like, feels like meeting an actual superhero.So that part of it is so surreal.And what was good about both of the shoots that we did with them is that there was so much.tactical stuff we had to get right, you know, from like just skydiving to, you know, flying theplanes that like, that sort of keeps you from getting too in awe of like those kind of actorsbecause like you have to make sure that like you're not going to die while you're doing thisthing. Anyway, so you're out there in the desert and it's just, it's crazy. The other thing, Tom Cruise,
29:35you know, I was lucky enough to be the writer on everything he did on our show. Um,and he like he remembers you and you like sort of built like a relationship with him like over thecourse of all these sketches we did together um and i was like he's another dude who you know Jamescordon it was his show so it was impressive that he would like dedicate himself and work untilsomething was right Tom Cruise also did that every time he came on our show which i know is kindof his energy but like he would blow past his call time by two hours to makesure he got something right, you know.And that is, that's just so amazing.
30:16He rode his motorcycle to the set.Like he does all this shit where you're like, no, that's not really how he is.But he like, the first one he wrote his motorcycle to the set.The second one, he flew his own jet.He picked up James and our producer in L.A., flew them to that set in his plane,like this little plane and landed it.And then the sketch was him flying two jets with James, like in the passenger seat.And then he did that too.
30:46But like all this stuff where you're like, surely at some point he stops being Tom Cruise.But he never stops being Tom Cruise.First one in a motorcycle, then in a jet.It was amazing.And then the last thing we did with him was a scene from the Lion King at the Pantagos Theater in LA.Oh, I forgot about that.Yeah, the audience.They couldn't believe it.
31:07Yeah. That was really fun. Can you talk about that?Yes, it was nuts because, you know, you think like skydiving, flying a jet, all very natural.One of the things, though, I remember when we were on the second military base shoot, where they flew the decommissioned, you know, the Vietnam jet and the World War II jet, it was so hot out there that you couldn't be in those planes cabins in the middle of the day because they didn't have air conditioner because they were pre-airplanes having air conditioner.So there was a lot of downtime on set where we would just,and this was 2019, I believe,where we were just sitting around for,you know,six hours with nothing really to do because we'd filmed all the comedy pieces,
31:50all the links,and we were just waiting for them to be able to go up in the plane.And a few amazing things happened.One, he took us to his trailer and showed us like 10 minutes of Top Gun too.You know,and this was years before it came out.And like, we were all like freaking out.It was amazing.
32:07Then the other thing that happened was just like me,the other writer, this guy, Louis Weymouth,and James were sitting with Tom Cruise,just talking about movies.And one of the things he was saying while we were talking,he was like,he wanted to do another musical,and he wanted to do like a Buster Keaton-style physical comedy.
32:30He was like, those are two things I still really, really want to do.You know, because he'd done the one musical.He's like, but I've been watching a ton of Buster Keaton,and I'd love to try something like that,which makes sense because it's so physically demanding,which is the thing he excels at.And now I think he's doing some of that in Digger,although we'll see.
32:46I mean, it might just be a straight comedy.But we remembered, you know,we were trying to figure out what the last thingwe wanted to do with Tom Cruise was,and I remembered that musical comment,and I was like, what if we give him his chanceat the Pantagius?They were doing the Lion King.
33:01And it was so funny.He, for like, a week straight,like worked with a singing coachto do Hakuna Matatalike really dedicated himself to ithe I forget he was somewhere filmingbut he hired like a vocal coachand like in his off time was like
33:19learning the choreographylearning the singing so he came in readyhe goes all out with everythingand then like the people at the Lion Kingwere so generous and welcomingwith their time and like working with usand showing us to do the puppy.and welcome us under their set.
33:38They were so amazing.The audience lost it.They lost it.Obviously.You would never expect, you know?Like, it's such a surreal.Never in a million years.Such a surreal thing.
33:50It was so, it was so much fun.It was another like, and now I'm on the cake list, by the way.So I'm on the Tom Cruise cake list.It happened for like 10 years running.What kind of cake does he say?It's the same cake everyone else gets,which is a coconut vanilla,white chocolate cake. It's a ring cake. It's amazing. It's truly so, so delicious. And on that last
34:13shoot, I'd been on it for a couple years. And on that last shoot, I looked at this publicist in theface and I was like, I will do whatever it takes to stay on that cake list because it's a highlightevery year. And she was like, you're on it for life. So we'll see. So far I've, so far I've stayed onit. So far. That's fantastic. Because it's the kind of thing. It's the kind of thing you can tell yourgrandma. You know what I mean? Or your mom or your cousin or whatever. Like, I've done so many thingsthat are like cool to me, but they don't really care. But when you're like, I got a cake from Tom Cruise,you know, this year. And they're like, oh my God. Like it resonates with everybody. Plus,free cake, you know. Absolutely. I'm never going to say no to that. In 2019, when they did
34:54carpool, karaoke and Liverpool with Paul McCartney, were you there? I was not there. I've, I worked on it.I did a bunch of writing on it, but we were, so we would go to, we would do these shows in Londonevery summer.And we would then kind of have to like do splinter cells to make sure everything got filmedbecause we had like four days to film like a crosswalk, a mystery pizza box, a carpool karaoke,you know, like whatever a sketch with the Avengers, you know, we had like four days.So Greenberg, Lauren Greenberg and like the producers were in Liverpool with McCartney.All the writers, like, wrote on it.
35:33And I was down in London, I think, sorting out one of the crosswalk the musicals,either like the Andrew Lloyd Weber one or one of the other ones we did in London.I can't remember exactly which ones we did in London.But, like, I was not there on the set.But luckily, I got to meet Paul McCartney back in the studio a couple of times.And it was the most beautiful thing, one of the most beautiful moments outside of,that like doesn't involve my wife or my family or my son,uh,
36:04was being in Westminster Hall in London right after we showed,uh,that Paul McCartney Carpul karaoke for the first time.Like watching it,you're like,I can't believe it.This is like one of the best things I've ever been involved in,like television wise.
36:20And then you're in this room with like 800 people in it.And they're all singing,Hey Jude together.It was like in our last episode in London,We were all exhausted.We were all like full of joy.This entire room is singing, hey Jude.We just filmed this thing with Paul McCartney.
36:36It was like one of those moments that will stay with me for the rest of my life.It was like very, just very, very beautiful.Your show got some press back.I think it was around 2019.You know, you lost, was it 220 pounds, something like that?I did.I lost it in 2020, like during the COVID pandemic when I couldn't go to restaurants.Yeah, the year before, Bill Marr on real time does a segment where he's urging.
37:04I think he was probably joking maybe he wasn't about urging to bring back fat shaming.So you and James get together and what happens?Yeah, I think, you know, listen, like, I think Bill Maher gets a lot of bad, gets a bad rap.I don't hate him as much as maybe your average like L.A. comedy writer.but that one really got between my ribs,because I don't know if he was joking.I think he was doing that sort of like half-joking,but like actually I'm serious about bringing back fat shaming.
37:37And I understand better than anyone,or as well as anyone,the health risks that go along with being, like,or that can go along with being a fat person.I get that.But like James and I saw that.And very rarely, you know, like we,I think to James's testament,
37:54we knew what our show wasand we also knew what our show wasn't.And we would try to find the opportunities to be, like, serious and actually do.We knew we weren't Colbert.We know we weren't John Oliver.You know, we couldn't, we didn't really have the standing to do hard-hitting political stuff.That wasn't like what James was good at, not really what people wanted to hear from him.But when we found areas, whether it was a fat-shaming thing or I remember during the first Trump administration,
38:24there was an immigration ban and James being an immigrant.He was like, that's something that I want to talk about.The Grenfell Tower fires.I remember when we were London, we did a thing about that.But on this specific one, he and I got together and we're just like talking about itin a creative meeting where we were like, can you fucking believe, you know, James is a fat guy.I was a fat guy.I'm still a fat guy.
38:45I was a much fatter guy then.James is like yo-yoed with his weight.It's like been a governing force in both of our lives the entire time.And we were like, can you believe this guy?thinks like fat shame like we need to bring back fat shaming can you believe he thinks fat shaming wentanywhere which was like kind of the craziest part to us like it hadn't gone anywhere our entire livesto this day i deal with fat shaming james deals with fat shaming like it has every fat person deals withfat shaming it has not gone anywhere so we just started like riling each other up about it and we were
39:16like i think this is a piece and then i went off and wrote like a rough draft of it and then jamesand I sat togetherand sort of like punching it up,adding a lot of his own experience into it.And it's one of the things I'm like the most proud ofthat I've written because I feel like,I don't know, man,like I know how it feels growing up in the 90s
39:39being like a fat kid watching The Nuddy Professor with Eddie Murphyor Fat Bastard in an Austin Power movieor like literally every sitcom, cartoon, movies,where there are so many jokes at the expense of fat peoplesome of our greatest comedic mindshave dedicated entire filmsto making fun of fat people.And like the one time you're laughing
40:00because it is funny,but the other part you're like,fuck man, that's me.You know what I mean?Like they're making fun of me.And to be able to put that on national televisionjust in case there were any like fat kidsor fat adults,
40:12you know,it doesn't stop hurting when you're a grown up.You just get better at hiding it.Watching and being like,hey, we're here with you.It's not all people who think you need to lose weightand you're a worthless piece of shitbecause you're fat.
40:22you know.Leading up to James getting the show, I remember Dave Letterman calling James Tubby.There was a guest host for the late, late show.Do you recall James's reaction?I know Letterman never ended up doing the show as a guest.Now he goes on almost all the shows, but at the time, do you recall?We'd for sure be able to land him now.I don't know.
40:43I thought we were surprised.I thought it was like the big reaction.You never, like, I don't know.You never.I love David Letterman.And Conan were, you know, when I was like growing up, that was like what you watch, you know.Yeah.They were the, they were the funniest shows.
41:02Since then, you know, like I still love him.I remember working on the Conan O'Brien thing.Mark Twain Prize and David Letterman walking in and just being like, again, feels like, oh, that's God.Like it feels like like you shouldn't be able to see him with your own eyes.but, you know, kind of a prickly guy.You're kind of a,a difficult man to work for and work withfrom everything I hear.
41:31And not necessarily the sweetest man,although I think he is mellowed.I think he's mellowed out a lot without the pressure.I mean, you mentioned,you were asking about misconceptions with talk show host,and you mentioned with James and other people, the pressure.I mean, Dave, I worked for him.him briefly and it was one of those things where, you know, he expected so much out of the staff,
41:55but he expected more out of him himself. I mean, the guys demanded a lot, but I mean, I think thatthat shows with his longevity, but I'm glad he seems much, much happier. What was it like whenyou would do stand up on some of these shows? Like, you mentioned Conan, for example. What was thatlike going on one of your, you got somebody you looked up to. What was that like? That was the great.it was the craziest, craziest thing.Like, I have this memory seared into my brain of the stage hands.Because on Conan, and on our show, actually, they're like, when the curtain opens likethat, that's dudes doing that.
42:32There's two dudes back there opening the curtain.And I just remember, like, this guy's class ring on his finger, like, seared into theback of my mind.And then the curtains open.And then you're walking out.and you're and like, holy shit, I'm here on Conan.And then thank God for muscle memory.Because it's like, you're present, but in a terrifying way.
42:57Maybe like, I mean, the second third, when I started doing it on our show,the second time I did Conan, yada, yada, yada, yada.Like, I was a little more comfortable, a little more present.But like that first time you're present the way you're present before a car hits you.Like it's so.You're in Warner Brothers too.You're on this historic lot and this sound stages have the plaque with,with everything that they've ever filmed there.
43:18Yes.Yeah, you're like, oh shit.Yeah, it's like you're walking.You're like doing your job, but like kind of in a museum,but like a museum where history is still happening.It's nuts.And I remember the first time I heard Conan and Andy laugh at a joke.And like there's never been a sweeter sound.
43:36You know what I mean?In like my entire life, you're like, holy,because you've heard the laugh a trillion times.You know what I mean?Just from like watching the show, sitting at home.and it wasn't until I likeyou know you're I was up this like arts delicatessenin the North Hollywood afterwards
43:50which is decentand like sitting therejust being likethat's like the laugh I heard when I was like10 staying up too late to watch like this showand now likeyou're getting it because you told a jokeit's just like man it was so cool
44:06and Conan was so niceConan is like and Andylike the sweetest dudesso sweet AlexTrebek was on my show. He did like a, he did like a walkout. So I was in the back. And I lookedacross the aisle and there was like Alex Trebek and I was like, oh, all right. That's amazing.You know, because I had done Chelsea lately at that point. So it was like, I wasn't like starstruck beingaround like famous people in general. But being around famous people who are like important to me.
44:34Yeah, you're officially in show business. I did want to ask, how did you, how did you come to Ellen DeGeneres'sattention because when she did her last special, which I think she said might be her last stand-upspecial ever, how did you find out that she was an admirer of your work and that she brought youin to collaborate on some of her material? It was set up through Full Well, 73, through Ben Winston,who she brought on to help her produce that special. And he showed her some of my stand-up,and she really liked it. And, you know, that was like,I don't know how much I can say.I think I like it was it was it was great.
45:18I mean like working she is so funny.She is so, so, so, so, so, so funny.And I think funnier than like,I think there are things in her lifethat are still difficult for her to talk abouton stage in a comedic way.And I think if she's able to ever get to that,in a very real way, it's going to be amazing.
45:47And I think even that special, she is just like,because people get so big.And Ellen is like maybe the classic case of this.People get so big and so monolithic.And obviously she got like blowback and criticismfor being someone who's difficult to work forand then that becomes part of someone's story.And people, you forget what.
46:12What's at the heart of why this person became such a monolith?And what's at the heart of that is the fact that Ellen DeGeneres is one of the greatest stand-of-of-comedians of all time.And one of the most uniquely funny.Her Carson debut.Her Carson debut, her specials, her, like, just talking to her, her and finding Neal.The daytime show.She was fucking funny on daytime.The daytime, she made it look so easy.
46:40There are a lot of people in the public.to think anybody could do that.I was talking to one of my friends in TV yesterdayabout how good she was.She made it effortless,and she was the biggest thing in television.Would you go to Largowhen she was trying out material
46:54and taking notesand seeing her work in progress?I was there with her backstageon all those shows, yeah.And the audience didn't know,for the most part, right,that she was going to walk outand do stand-up for the most part?
47:06She eventually did some of her own shows,but mostly early on it was likeher dropping in on TIGs show.or her dropping in on Tignitaro show or her dropping in on like Pete Holmes doing a show orBrett Goldstein show and she would like drop in on those and it would be a surprise and here's anotherfunny thing that happened you know on those those surprise shows I think were kind of betterthan the shows where she was doing it for her audience where it was advertised as an Ellendegenerales show interesting and my my theory
47:42on that is I think like the Ellen shows that were that were not um that were surprises it was likeshe was performing in front of an audience who had the entire story of Ellen's last 15 years intheir heads and I think when you were performing for maybe some of the for the ones where it's likethis one's for the true Ellen super fans they were the people who were unwilling to acceptto the idea that she had also hadthese difficulties in her career, you know?That's interesting.Because they're her super fans.
48:18And I think like maybe that was part of like,it was just an interesting thing to see with someone that big,with so much of a story,trying to work through some of it like via standup.It's just like a very interesting thing to say.I, working with her, again, I'm like,I'm not sure exactly how much I can say.I may have violated an NDA right now
48:38and I hope I don't get sued.But like,um,she was like,great to work for because she was very direct in her feedback.She was not mean.And I'm not discounting anyone's storiesor interactions that they had with her.
48:54This was after all that went down.This was on stand up and not a daily show,which I know how hard it can be to work on a daily show.Like,you would come to her with a bunch of jokes.You would riff on ideas that she said.And like,when you knew it wasn't the right idea,
49:07she would tell you directly.not in a mean way at all, but it was like, no, not that.And that is such a gift as a writer.Like to not not have someone be sort of mealy-mouthed on something just to be like,no, not that.Because then you're like, all right, great.Pitch that.I'm not going to spend two hours trying to work it out.
49:26And when you were on to something, Ellen would be like, that is so funny.That's brilliant.That's great.And like getting that from, you know, again, one of the greatest stand-up comedians of all time is like,that's another one of those like, remember.how this feels like kind of moment.I love that you've had so many experiences.We have to go soon.
49:44I know you have to go,but I was going to ask what your highlights have been so farwith the World Cup on Fox after I was with James Corden.I mean, that has been a huge thing.I was talking to one of my friends yesterdayand him and his family all watch.And I mentioned I was going to talk to you and he got all excitedand the families all come together.
50:02Oh, shout out to them.That's amazing.Mark, it was so weird, man, because I like,obviously, you know,I did kind of like the Ed McMahon thingon the last couple years of the late show.So I was used to like working with James in that aspect,but I was not a soccer fan,
50:18even a little bit before the show,before I found out about this show.And I kind of put myself through the paces,you know,where I was like trying to cram as much soccer knowledge as I couldin like the two months leading up to it.And then I fell in love of soccer so much.It was crazy because I had friends who were into soccer
50:36and I'd be like,oh yeah, Tieri-on-Ree's coming.on the show. And to them, that's likeKobe Bryant's coming on the show.And to me, it's just like, oh, that's the Frenchguy who I see in the kitchen everynow and then, which I think helpednot be in awe of these people.
50:50He's one of the greatest soccer players of all times.Latani Brahimovich, obviouslyRio Ferdinand on our show, like one of thegreatest centerbacks of all time.But to me, they were justlike nice guyswho I met. You know what I mean? I was more in awe of BrianCranston when he came on our show than I was of
51:05Tieri-on-R-Ree, which to a soccer fan that would blowthey're mine. But I don't know. The highlight of it, it was just such a fun job because youwould sit around all day watching sports with like a bunch of funny people and people who knewtheir shit. And then you would get to go, obviously it was very difficult and it was hard and it waslike grueling hours for the entire staff because we knew we had this short window, but we wouldhave to watch and process four games and then talk about it. But ultimately you're watching sports,you're joking about sports and then you're talking about it on TV for an hour.But the remote shoots, I think I got to like, I quit soccer after one practice when I was
51:46eight years old.So we shot this sketch on the show where I joined up with an eight-year-old youth league teamin like L.A. and shooting that was so much fun.The kids were so funny and sweet.I joined up with the American outlaws like the fan group.I went to Chicago for the last friendly before the World Cup and got to go to a game withthem.and these dudes are like nuts,
52:06but in the best possible way,they're like so loving and so open,but so crazy about soccer.And like there's this guy who calls himselfUlysses S. Chance,who's like the dude who runs like the drums,you know,like does the drumming and then Phil who like is the,
52:24I forget the name,but he like leads the chance and everything.And I got to hang out with those guys.And they just brought me in like a member of the family.And, you know,I'm getting drunk with them.and then the next day, I'm standing in a park, lighting off flares, you know, with these guys andlike singing these chants that I didn't know 24 hours earlier.
52:42It was just, the entire thing was intense and beautiful.Every part of it.The shoots, the show itself was just intense and beautiful.And I got to bring back one of my favorite running gags throughout my career, which is if a ballwas made out of cake or not, which predates is it cake.I was doing that on the late, late show before.is it cake and I just want to be on the record.I could be a multi, multi-millionaire
53:07right now.We brought back a thingcalled is it kickwhere we had these incredibly realisticsoccer balls and then you had a kick of that.Give Ian attribution. Ian Carmel,thank you so much for talking with us.This was so much fun. I really appreciate it.
53:23What a pleasure. This was so much fun. You werein like the best preparedinterview I've ever had my entire life.You knew everything. That was amazing. Oh my goodness.No, that means a lot. I appreciate it.It was a pleasure, Mark. Thank you for having me.Thanks for listening.Please subscribe so you never miss an episode.
53:41On Apple Podcasts, please rate it and leave a review.Be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news.And you can find my podcast at late-nighter.com forward slash podcasts.Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next Tuesday.
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