Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Booker T's Hilarious NXT Commentary, Trick Williams, Stone Cold Feud, Stephanie Vaquer

Episode Date: October 1, 2026

Booker T (@bookert5x) is a pro wrestler, announcer, and 2-time WWE Hall of Famer. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Houston, TX to discuss being an NXT announcer and why it is more fun than being on the main roster, how he got the role as a commentator, his calls getting the likes of Trick Williams and Stephanie Vaquer over, being chased by Stone Cold while playing bingo in church, The Shockmaster's debut, the last time he did a Harlem Hangover, being challenged to a match by Trick Williams, and more! Please support our sponsors: SEAT GEEK: Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order*: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/CVV Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $20 discount SUPERPOWER: Head to https://superpower.com and use code CVV at checkout for $20 off your membership. Get 100+ biomarkers tested every year, plus a personalized health plan and on-demand care team. Detect early signs of 1,000+ conditions. #superpowerpod HELIX SLEEP: Flash sale! Go to https://helixsleep.com/cvv for 27% off sitewide! COZY EARTH: Go to https://cozyearth.com/CVV for up to 20% off! BEAM: Go to https://shopbeam.com/INSIGHT and use code INSIGHT for up to 40% off Beam’s Dream Powder DELETEME: Use the code INSIGHT to get 20% off your DeleteMe plan at https://joindeleteme.com/INSIGHT FACTOR: Get 50% off your first box, plus Free Breakfast for 1 Year with the code INSIGHT50OFF at https://factormeals.com/INSIGHT50OFF PURE PLANK: The future of core fitness! Use the code CVV to save 10% on Pure Plank designed by Adam Copeland & Christian: https://gopureplank.com/cvv NORDVPN: Exclusive deal! https://nordvpn.com/cvv Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! PRIZEPICKS: Download the PrizePicks app today and use code INSIGHT to get $50 bonus credit in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup! For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to: https://chrisvanvliet.com If you have ever enjoyed any of these episodes, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast or Spotify? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests. Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Flee! Always good to see you. Always. Thank you for having me in here. Hey, man. Another one. I've said this many times you before, but I think you have the best wrestling school in the world.

Like, this facility is unbelievable. Appreciate it. You know, we work hard. We work hard. You know, we mom and pop shop. Charméle and I, but we worked really, really hard over 20 years to feel something. Really, really. really special.

And I'm so proud of this place. I really am. I can't tell how proud I am. When people hear reality of wrestling, like it carries weight now. If someone comes through here, if someone has a match here, it's like, oh,

they're getting the stamp of approval from Booker T. So do you have to, like, really keep your eye on what talent are coming on a show? Yeah, heck yeah. We're always looking out for the best talent, you know, but we're always trying to look to

present the best show to, present the best, product for the young talent that's coming in here and the spirit that they're going to have when they leave as well as the you know the people that's watching it on youtube and you know cw 39 here we try to make sure everybody you know take something away from this like i say mom and pop shop you know but it's a lot of young guys trying to get to that next level and i think that's what makes us so special the most you know independent you know wrestling company we don't we don't call ourselves independent, like a small television company.

Yeah. Yeah, you know. Maybe we got TV lights up here. Look at his entrance way. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, we're only gonna try to upgrade and try to make it better, but it's all about trying to, you know, I remember when I was young getting into this.

And I was like, and I wish I was a young kid coming into reality and resting and had this platform to, you know, perhaps spring. But I did on ESPN back then. And that's what we're kind of like giving these kids, you know, Yeah, that's pretty cool. You still love wrestling. Yeah, I love it, man.

Not everybody does, though. It's what I do. Like there's so many people that they put their time in, they retired, and they're on other things. You still love it. Yeah, I mean, I plan on retired a long time ago from wrestling, but as far as, you know, mainstream, as far as WWE and stuff like that,

I planned on that going away a long time ago. I didn't expect to be it this long at all. But that's why I built the wrestling school, because I hear so many guys, you know, old guys. I'm one of those old guys now, but I hear so many old guys get out of business and then they complain. They're bitter, you know what I mean? They're talking about the shows. You know, they critique in the shows, you know, and I say, you know, I'm going to just, instead of doing that, I'm going to just build my own, create my own stories, and, you know, still have a great

love for the business, something that has given me so much. I wouldn't be where I am today. without the rest of the How much do you think being a commentator right now has just kept you relevant in the eyes of a fan? You know, I always say that, you know, sometimes it may take someone else to keep you relevant, you know, and always, you know, people say respect your elders, you know, but I say you gotta respect your young guys these days because they're the future, you know.

It's like what Bad Buddy made the song, you know, it's like, you know, bad buddy was keeping me relevant totally a totally different genre. And then, you know, I'm working with the young guys now. They go out there and, you know, look at all the banners around. And I did it. I like over the WrestleMania weekend, I see the blueprint and the footprint of reality of wrestling all over, you know, in like so many different shows. I'm working in so many different companies.

It's amazing. You know, so for me, you know, I'm just living my best life. How did you get this job to be a commentator in WWA? You know, this thing goes back to WCW. It goes all the way back to WCW. Yeah, it goes back to WCW. It's just one of those things to work. Every time we was on the road overseas,

I was the commentator in the back for the boys, you know, in front of the monitor, you know, and I just would be having fun, and I would, you know, give guys different names. And I would name their moves totally different names, you know. I would just be like way over the top with it, you know. So it was just, you know, something I did to pass time. And I, and the boys liked it, you know, so.

And when you're out on the road, you gotta figure out that way to like, you know, ass time or anything. But how'd that turn into you getting the job that you have now in WWA? Well, when I came to WWE, same thing. I was on the road, you know, doing commentary on the road. Just making the guys laugh at that?

Yeah, yeah. And then when I was rapping my career, of Cole, Michael Cole, he came to me and he was like, man, how much like, you know, start doing commentary and, you know, get on the commentary team. I don't know what you're talking about. I can't do that. And he was like, no, man, I think you can do it, you know. Cole's been, you know, Michael Cole, I love Michael Cole.

He's been my biggest supporter. I wouldn't be doing commentary if it wasn't for Michael Cole, putting me on the team and trusting me for some damn reason. And I would screw up so many times. one day on television, I go, I want to see a fucking fight. I'm like, what the hell? I didn't come out.

I didn't mean for that to come out. You know, and Cole goes, what did you just say? And I go, what did I just say? He goes, yeah. I didn't even realize I said it. You know, I would just screw up. You know, and the thing is,

I know I would be screwing up. Tell me you didn't just say that. No, you know, it's one of those moments. Yeah, exactly, you know, and, but he was still, you know, like, you know, keep trusting me. And he just kept trusting me. And I was like, I just didn't understand it. And a lot of times, you know, I was like, you know, I just know they're going to like, you know, take me out the team sooner or later and sooner or later that day came for me, you know,

I was doing SmackDown, I was doing raw. And then they came to me one day and they go book. you know, we're going to take you off commentary, but we're going to leave you on the kickoff show. And, you know, we're going to, you know, figure out some, you know, there's nothing wrong or anything like that. And then I go, guys, I was going to come talk to you guys about it. And I was so happy that day.

Cory Gray thought I was crazy because they took me out of the team. And I was so happy because I just knew I was a rich. ready for that. I knew I wasn't. You know, and then I'd end up put me back on again, you know, and they end up taking me off again, you know. And, you know, but you do the NXT gig. Yeah, you being on NXT looks like you're just having

the time of your life. Yeah, you know what? A lot of it had to do, like with, you know, I always tell the story of, like, when I was doing commentary my first time around under the Vince regime, and he came into my here and he goes, look, say much to his chagrin. Much to his chagrin.

And I go, I'm from the head. I didn't even know what that meant. First of all, chagrin. I'm thinking about the cheating area. I'm just saying. And I look at the camera, at those little cameras, you know, that's looking at this, my cameras.

And I go. Because I just knew, I knew if I said that, all my street grid would have been told. So I couldn't really be myself. You know, you know, Roy and Smackdown. But when I came to NXT, you know, Sean Michaels was just like, you know, just be you.

Whatever you want to do, just do it, you know. And I remember after the first night, I did commentary in NXT. And I came back through the curtain. Sean goes, man, I don't know what you were saying, but I liked it. So I was like, oh, man, I love this, you know. So being able to be down there, I'm in NXT.

It's so refreshing to be myself. But it's really, really cool also because I used to be one of those kids. and I ain't know about making mistakes. And when I see them make mistakes, I can call it out. You know, I can critique them from a certain disposition opposed to the guys on the main roster. I see the guys on the main roster make a mistake. It's a little bit harder to critique them

because they're supposed to be pros. They're supposed to have everything. But with the young guys, they're still learning. So that's why for me it's a real refreshing, as well as I get a chance to work with them hands on. Yeah. And I'm a teacher at heart. I love teaching and explaining and trying to get you to understand, you know, what chess is all about.

Because you just can't run into a chess game and start moving pieces. You know, you got to really strategize if you want to be really, really good at chess, you know. We got to talk about that CM Punk versus Kevin Owen's match recently for the WWE title. on Smackdown. It was nuts, and I was lucky enough to be right there for it. And when I say right there, I mean right there behind the announced table. Second row, big thank you to Seekek for the amazing tickets and for sponsoring this episode. With over 35 million downloads, Seekek is the number one rated ticketing app. There are more than 70,000 events listed on Seekek, including WWE, concerts, sports, festivals, and more. The NFL season is kicking off. Baseball is

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and then that code will automatically be applied to your account so you can use it later. I feel like you helped to get Trick Williams over so much with his entrance in NXT. Was that just something that naturally happened? You know, I love working with Vic. You know, Vic is like the maestro.

You know, he's like the guy that's directing traffic. You know, and Vince, you know, so a lot of times he's, you know, like this right here, you know, that means just lay out. You know, I get it, you know what I mean? You do your damn job, do your job. You know, but sometimes, you know, you got to know, you got to know when to let things flow.

And that's what's really cool about Vic and I. He's realized when it's time to let me let things flow, lay out. It's time for him to lay out. And I remember the day, Trick came out. out and I don't know, I was just feeling it and I think I might have had a cup of coffee and two expressos. I swear, man. And I was like so jacked up that night my heart was like beating. I was like

sweating, you know, it's like one of those type of deals, got the little slight headache. But everything was just like right and it was to the building was just hot and when Trit came out, I just thought, what? Yeah. And then Vic goes, and then I go, oh, I say what? I like it. Oh, yeah, man. Oh, yeah. And I just kept saying it.

And then I just talked them all the way into the ring. And then music stopped. And Vic, his the little mic, a little button on the, you know, silent button. And he goes, do that every week. So, you know, we got a really, really good chemistry. And Vick has really helped me. You know, find myself as a commentator. Not a commentator.

You know, I don't even know what to call myself. You know, as more... You're not a color commentator? I really wouldn't necessarily call myself a commentator, you know. Analyst? Yeah, kind of like an analyst. Yeah, I would say that more to a commentator. Yeah, I feel like for a lot of fans,

that's what Trick Williams' song sounds like now. It's you. You're the lyrics. Yeah. Yeah. I love, you know, being able to, you know, bring the show some, you know, some fun, you know, feel good. You know, because, I mean, that's what the crowd wants.

The crowd wants to, you know, the attitude era when the end participation was, it was the best, you know. And I haven't forgotten that, you know. Try to think about that even, you know, NXT and all those young characters like Jay, Jay, the rock star, you know, just giving her an extra, you know, when she came out and making her feel like, man, wait a minute, I really am a rock star. You know, because you got to be able to, you got somebody's got to believe in you. In order for you to believe in yourself, you know. I love how you're talking about how good Vic is.

I've known Vic for a long time. We worked at a radio station together in Cleveland, like 12, 14 years ago. I think he might be the most underrated commentator in all of wrestling right now. It's just, you know, it doesn't matter of being in the right place at the right. I think that's it more than anything. You know, we're talking about Joy Stiles just not too long ago because I'm kind of like Joey Stiles a little bit.

I love Joey Stiles. Yeah, a legend. Yeah, me, I love that. You know, and I just say, Joy Stiles, he was such a great commentator and such a great analyst, you know, his story and everything. He did everything. He did it all by himself, you know, when he was in ECW.

But when he came to WWE, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yeah. You know, I think Vic, you know, his first time around, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was just not his time yet. He had to season himself and really hone his craft, you know, more than anything. And I think, you know, I know, I know he gives me a lot of credit, man. He always, you know, giving me a lot of credit. But I think when I came to Nxte, it was my job to give him.

that confidence to know that he can do this and he's better than just about anybody at it. You know what I mean? On any given night, you know, of giving the opportunity, you know, so a lot of commentators, Vic, has been with, you know, they want to share the spotlight.

I don't try to share the spot. I want to give them all the spotlight as well as all the responsibilities because I don't want to do no reads. Yeah, there's a lot more going on than people realize, right? You got a direct track. traffic.

Yeah. Right? Throwing a commercial breaks, commercial reads. So I make sure I'm like, like Mr. Miyagi. I'm training a kid. I'm training it.

You know. The Stephanie Vakar spot with the devil's kiss. How did that come about? Your commentary on that? Again, you know, the soundtrack. You know, you,

you know, it's one of those things to work. if you got a talent that's out there and they're doing something, and it's good, it's good, but it doesn't really have a soundtrack. It's not going to have that same field. It's not going to have that same punch.

And I learned that when I was coming up because of, you know, Spinneroni and Mark Madden. You know, Spinnerudy wouldn't have been to Spinneroonie. I give Mark Madden all the credit, you know, out of Pittsburgh, you know, radio guy. You know, that was just so over the top when he saw Spanerooney, Spanerone, Spanerode! You know, and I'm like, what is that?

I better do more of this. You know, and people start buying into it, like it was, like it was, I didn't know the Spinneroni was my signature. I didn't know that until Mark Madden made it my signature, you know, and I was like, oh shit, you know, that's my signature. And then with Stephanie McCart, I say, man, this is, this,

I say with Stephanie Vicarap, man, that move is, it needs some sound, you know, for the people to actually, you know, get on board and really, uh, accented. You know, like, ah, ah, ah, ah, you know what I mean? So for me, people, you know, so many people, you know, tried to give me grief about it, you know, because they try to make it sound like,

you know, you know, what is booker T. Do you're trying to, you know, you know, I'm like, go along with the, ride and let's see where this thing goes. And then when the whole arena is doing it, you know, and then the t-shirts come out and the merch, you know, then let's talk about it. You know, so for me, everything I do, everything is all for the talent. It's all for the young talent to get over. No bread, no water, just me.

Is that something you had said before, like in your everyday life? No, Mark Jackson. commentator for NBA, NBA analysts. I was watching him about some years ago, and he goes, that man, that man, no bread, no water, just eat. I like, write that down right now. But I always gave Mark Jackson the credit for that. It was a great artist steal, right?

Yeah, you know what I mean? He's not going to be able to use it. I think he got let go not to. But, no, it's one of those things, you know, people take my stuff and use it. I mean, I don't care, but if it fits, you know, it fits. Yeah.

You know, it's not trademarked or anything like that. When you think of your career as a wrestler in WCW, and you think about it in WWE, what do you think is the biggest difference? I mean, in WCW, I was a wrestler. I mean, I had to concentrate on being the best wrestler. Started there at the bottom of that company. I wasn't established or anything like that.

I couldn't talk. I couldn't, you know, raise my voice too loud. But I can let my wrestling speak for me. So that's what I think I had to concentrate on as a tag team with my brother and I starting out, you know, going on those road trips. going overseas, never winning a match. But still acting like I was, you know, like one of the best wrestlers.

But going out there and giving really, really good performances. And then when getting put in a position where you got to go out there and deliver. And in WCW, it wasn't about delivering in from a acting perspective. It was about wrestling. Yeah, can you go in the wreck? Can you work with the best wrestlers in the world? So I wanted to establish that, and I got a chance to do that in WCW.

I had a great time in WCW going out there and being the wrestler because it was like a lot of great competition, you know, and I love that part of it. I post it to WWE. They totally, when I first came in, they tested me to see how good of an actor I was. they went to see how funny I was. They went to see if I could do skits.

You know, they wanted to see if I had an ego. You know, so it was like, okay, I really fell into that stuff, you know, the acting part. You know, you got to be able to laugh at yourself in this business. And that part, I had no problem. But you could have been like, why do you want me to do all this silly stuff? Did you not see how much I was doing in the ring in WCW? I mean, I guess you could look at it that way, too. But I think in WWA, I got a chance to do both.

I knew I was going to have to have both in order to succeed. You just couldn't do the acting part and not be able to do the wrestling part also. You know, so with WWE, it was world wrestling entertainment. You know, you knew you was going around the world. You knew you was going to be wrestling, but you better be ready to entertain. same time. So it just, for me, I just, I love, you know, the showbiz part, you know. I always felt

like I was acting and auditioning for a script, you know, every, every chance I got, I thought I was auditioning for a script, even though I never really heavily thought about going into movies, you know, but I was just, I was just thinking, I know some director looking at this going, man, this guy, I could use this guy. Your first three feuds in WWE were Stone Cold, The Rock, and Kurt Angle. So many guys from WCW got instantly buried when they came over. How did you get these opportunities? You know, I always say you got to know how to make it in the locker room

before you have a chance at making it in the ring. And when I came in the WWE, I had to get those guys to trust me. And that gained that trust, you know, so I had to keep my head down and do things a certain way as far as let me show these guys how good I am, as well as, you know, hey, he's not that bad of a guy, you know. So they instantly like gave me a chance, you know, so I was put with the top guys, I think for a reason, too. just to see if these guys, you know, took to me. Yeah. If they was going to go back and take a report back and say, man, I don't know about this guy. You know, it's always, I always tell my students,

everything is the test. Everything. Don't think nothing is an test in this business. You know, so I don't, I think, I didn't care what they threw at me. back then, I knew I was going to pass the test, you know. So I just loved working with Paterson, you know, because he would give me a match, you know, and he would say, you know, go out and do it this way,

that's where that come from. The Pete Patterson. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, this way, being, ging, and then being zipped, ding, and you know, it's over with. And that was the match. And then I would go, I love it. And then he go, watch you, why you're so hard to?

to work with. So I didn't care, just give me the instructions and I'll go out here and deliver it. Just like you just explained it, tell me, gheek, gheek, gheek, you know, so. No, I wanted to be able to fit in and fit in properly and gained those guys respect. And I remember, I don't know, maybe six months in.

I might have even be sooner than that. I came in one day. And I was going to the locker room and Undertaker say, Hey, man, come, why'd you come dress over here with us? You know? And it was the, you know, it was called a TV locker room. And I went dressed over there with those guys. And it was like, well, the big guns dressed, you know,

wasn't a lot of guys, not a lot of baggage, you know, you know. So I felt like I was here from that. I loved when you were feuding with Stone Cold and you did the bingo. What do you remember from that day? I remember everything from that. I remember even the suit I had on. I had the store here called Jam Zone, you know, when we sold, you know, CDs, you know,

and clothing items, you know, from New York, and I had this brownout. I remember that's why I got it from New York, the warehouse district, you know, I don't know, maybe 30, 30, 40 bucks. But it looked good, it looks sharp. But I remember having so much fun doing those skits. You know, I remember just totally just,

going into a totally different mode. And I was watching some just, just early today actually. And it was just me doing a skit talking about a movie role that I was, you know, auditioning for and it was about to rock. And I was like, I don't even, I was trying to remember it.

I was like, I don't even remember this. But it was so stupid. It was so funny. You know, and that's what I got a chance to do, you know, like with the bingo stuff, like with the old lady, the bait switch, and it just was stupid, you know. You yelling at this old lady? What are you looking at?

It's just, I don't, I had so much fun, you know, doing that part of the business, you know, that side and being able to, you know, just, wrestling is not wrestling. It's so much more. You got Vince to break character with that, bingo segment. You call them on the phone, you're telling him you're hiding out in a church. You're going to play some, how did you say bingo?

I can't. I can't remember. Bingo. Whatever it is. That's what's crazy, you know. I used to, that's the part of the business is people don't get a chance to see. Back then, I like with Vince. I used to come, you know, I didn't care, I used to come to work, and I never cared what the role was. I never talked to any of the producers or the directors or anybody

and say, hey, what am I doing this week? I never called and said, you know, you know, who am I going to be working with? I just never did that. I just got the script that I would go with it. And my thing was to always try to pop vets, to really see if I could pop up, you know. And no matter how small the script was, or go out the curtain,

and I come back and he would let me know, man, you did it again, man, you got, man, you got them, you know. And those times, I didn't get them. And I knew what those times were, right? And all that love I got, got all those other times. That one time, I'll come back through the curtain he'd have his glasses on and be like this. not even acknowledging me.

And I would always go, hey, Vince, and he goes, he look at me. And I look at him and go, we'll get him next week. Boom, I'm out. I think my favorite Booker T line, and it's just a complete throwaway, is you know Kung Fu, but do you know, shampoo? Shampoo.

It's the way you delivered it. It's so good. My friends and I quote that all the time to this day. Yagaboshi Shaboo. Yeah, man. They wanted to cut my hair, man. But that deal. Yeah, wasn't the WrestleMania 18 match

originally going to be a hair versus hair match? It was until they came to approach me with the idea. So like you or Edge, one of you was going to shave your head? Well, I was, they wanted me to cut my hair. Yeah. And when they came to me with the idea, I go, is Edge cutting his head?

hair. And Edge was like, I'm not cutting my hair. So that's when they came up with the shampoo idea, you know, because not to one of us was just cut my hair. I wasn't doing it, you know. I was like, this is who I am, you know. I work too hard to grow my hair to, you know, cut it off.

But you felt okay with saying no? Oh, yeah. I've always been able to say no. Contrary to what the popular belief, what you might hear from people, I've never done anything that I didn't want to do in this business. Never. You know, I've always been on, standing on 10 toes,

on the principal, 99% I might keep my mouth shut. Yeah. But 100% I'm going to speak up 100% of the time. And I might get fired, but that's, that's the plan, you know, but no, I've always been outspoken. Where do you think that comes from? You know, it's kind of crazy. I come from an era where, you know,

I watch, like, certain guys perform. And I don't have to say their names or anything like that. But they were, like, so good that they could say whatever they wanted to say. And I learned from those guys. And I always knew I was talent. And I always knew I was in a position where you was making some money off me,

you were selling some tickets. So I always knew once I got to a certain position, I could say whatever I wanted to say. Not everybody gets a second chance in life. Like, you've talked about it a lot, you went to prison for 19 months. You took this second chance and you squeezed everything out of it. Like, you made the most of it.

Yeah. Was that a conscious effort that you made? Yeah, it really was. I mean, you know, I didn't think about this, of course. I mean, I decided to think about turning your life around. I thought about turning my life around, but it happened in increments. You know, it just didn't happen like overnight or anything like that. I knew I, like with the CEO said, the prison guard, when I left the yard, you know, on my way to the bus on the way home, he said, I'll see you when you get back.

I knew I knew that wasn't going to be me. I knew I wasn't that guy. I knew I wanted to be something. I knew I wanted to be more than just the guy in the neighborhood, the guy on the corner. I knew that. But I didn't know how far I was going to go. I didn't know, you know, wrestling was going to come into play or anything.

I didn't foresee that. But I do know once I did get my hands, you know, wrestling, I knew it was something that I was good at from the beginning. It was like deja vu. It's like I've been there before. And then to get an opportunity to do it, you know, in front of someone was all I needed. You know, I just needed that one chance, you know, and that chance came. And then from that point on, it was about, okay, how far can we go with this?

Who was the first person to really give you a chance? It would have been a Scandor Agbar. We were at, my brother and I was at a show in Amarillo, Texas. And it took us like 20 hours to get there because there was an ice storm from like Dallas to Amarillo. And we was in by Z28. And it was just, we had to go really, really slow. We got there. And Skander said, I mean, Scandor was at the show.

We met him. And we made like $1, 125 bucks for that show driving all the way, all those hours. We didn't care. But Ascandor said, man, maybe you guys get a chance to come in on. for me one day. And he was working in global down in Dallas. And my brother got a trial down at global and the thing you know, that's pretty much history. What did what did Sid mean to you earlier in your career? Uh, Sid meant everything. Uh, as far as being that guy that wanted to really, you know, put us in the spotlight. Uh, you know, we were working in the global wrestling

Federation and said, call the Global Wrestling Federation and talk to us and, you know, asked us how we like to be in WCW. And we was like, you know, he talked to my brother and, you know, like, yeah, we like to be in WCW. And, you know, he was trying to get, you know, do some office work at that time. He's kind of like trying to change his career around and do some different things. And we were like his first project. And he brought us to Atlanta, like three months later, we stayed at his, in his part, but he

in his apartment, you know, for about three months, he put us up, you know, told us exactly how much money we were going to be getting paid. You know, it wasn't like a huge contract or anything like that, but he was like just, don't worry about it. And we signed the contract, we didn't worry about it. I think it was like, like $75,000, you know, like our first contract. But it's 75, like, you know, for a few months, you know, boom, it went up and did it went up again. That's a lot when you were making $125 before.

$125. You know what? I was working at a warehouse and I was making $15,000 a year. Wow. And I like paying $75,000 to wrestle. That $75,000, you know, $15,000 went to $75,000. So I was like, I'm good, bro. I don't go say nothing.

But everything turned out to, you know, I mean, you know, picked up from there. I mean, everything, you know, totally just turned, you know, 180 as far as life goes. I was like, wow, you know. I was just happy because I was a street kid. The next thing, you know, I was making that kind of money, you know. It's awesome.

I don't know if this gets talked about enough, but you were there for the disastrous debut of Shockmaster. Yeah, because of Sid, you know, Sid was, but Sid put us right in the spotlight in WCWM, you know, with that, you know, with Shotmaster and, you know, Davy and Sting and those guys, you know, and us, Vader, and, you know, I'm like, you got to be kidding me. And it was, it was my first pay-per-view. We're in the main event in Houston.

I was like, how the hell this happened? You know, and we're doing that scene with the Shockmaster. And we're, the thing is, a lot of people don't realize, you rehearsed that thing early. We went over it. But somehow I think the wall that they had, they wanted to be a little bit more sturdier. So they put that board down at the bottom. And I don't think anybody told Fred.

And Fred, no, I'm saying Fred had the mask on. He couldn't see nothing. It wasn't a great idea. You know, from Chupjee. Even though we just used it around here not too long ago. Kind of. But, man. What were you thinking when he, like, collapsed?

through the wall. You know, I was so, I was so green and so young. I just tried to keep a straight face. I just tried to keep my composure and said goes, I told you. That's what Cid said. You know, and I didn't want to laugh. You know, it was one of those moments. I felt really, really bad for it because the helmet came off, the glitter went off, and I hate glitter. You know, I hate, you know, get glitter on me. It's just one of my phobias, you know, and it was all over the place. And you just knew things were going to change for him after that, too, yeah.

Is it true that Kurt Henning asked you if you wanted to be Mr. Perfect? He pitched this to you that you could be Mr. Perfect after he was done with the character? He wanted to do an angle with me to wear her everything like he did in, in WWE back in his day, he was going to come over to WCW, but he was going to try to recreate it, but he wanted me to be Mr. Perfect, you know, and I do an angle with him, you know, and, you know, but company just didn't see anything

in that idea for some reason. But I don't know, man, he really loved me, man. I swear, Kurti was one of those guys. And if he, if you like you, like you, you know, it was like that. But he, I don't know why. You know what? He told me he saw something in me, you know, when he was on the other side before ever came in and he really wanted to work me and he had thought about that for quite

some time. And I was so freaking honored for him to think about me in that way. It was really, really cool. But tonight, to not get it done, we missed the both. But what an honor. Like he wants to give you this iconic, legendary character. Hand it over. You know, it was crazy when I came up in my career.

I had so many guys, when I came up through my career, I had so many guys that wanted to give it back, wanted to test me and see how good I was and pushed me to the next level. So many of them. You know, and you hear the stories about people. And those stories are valid most of the time. And then I have the same experiences

with a lot of stories that those people are talking about. The stories are totally different, such as Rick Flair. You can hear a lot of stories about Rick from, you know, from the 70s to 80s to the 90s to down. And they're all going to be a lot different. But I remember when I won the world title, Rick Flair coming to me saying, I'm passing the torch to you, brother.

I go, what the hell? How the hell this happened? You know, how did this happen? You know, never saw that happening in a billion years. Rick Flair passing the torch. Watch to be. You're kidding me. Oh, man.

You know, that was like, that was like validation in some of the different ways, you know. That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, it was unbelievable. So it's just, you know, it's amazing. When do you think was the period of your career when you were having the absolute most fun?

Yeah, well, being Charmell was King Booker. I don't think nothing could have been more fun with that. Then, when we're in TNA, too, we had a lot of fun. It was like a vacation, you know, rest, you know, still getting paid. TNA was a vacation? Well, you know, we was going to Disney, you know, and I only had like 60-something days in my contract. So it wasn't like a full-time. 300 days off.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it wasn't like a full-time job or anything like that. I was RV and after-time, you know. But I had a great time in TNA. But King Booker and Charmel. I guess being married, because I was going to quit the company. I was going to quit when Charmell and I got married.

And I went to Vince and said, man, I can't, you know, can't do it. I'm good. I'm rapping, you know. What's the deal? You know, just, you know, just getting married, you know what I mean? You know, I just, I just ain't feeling in him, you know. Why don't we bring Charmel on the road, but oh.

That solves everything. You know, so Charmell and I was together, you know, it was like Bunny and Clyde. You know, we were having so much fun. It was like some of the most stupidest acting, you know, like with the boogeyman. Yeah. You know, with Kirk.

Yeah. You know, Bobby, Patista, everybody. Yeah. Just a character. You've been going over to ECW and balls Mahoney. It was just stupid at that stage of my career, you know, so, yeah. King Booker and Queen Charmell was, I think, my most fun run I could have ever imagined having. People remember the King Booker accent, but can you explain to us this African accent you had in TNA?

I had just finished watching the last king of Scotland before it's Woodica, Edi, I mean. And I loved the movie so much. And I was in TNA, right? And when I went to TNA, I had such grand expectations. I really wanted to. to change how, you know, that company was viewed. I had a lot of young talent to do it.

I remember when I first got there, I had a meeting with the young guys. I said, guys are like all the rest of these guys that came home from WWM, want to help you. This motherfucker lie. That's the way he looked at me just like a, he's just in front of buddy, yeah. But, and after about,

I don't know, maybe a couple of months. I felt that way, and I had a two-year contract. I felt like no one really cared because I can't remember one time we was doing a program or something because I'm coming from WWE, you know. I'm thinking about how people get your instructions. Nobody came and told me, hey, guys, we're going to do it this way.

Nobody, you know, hey, I need you guys to do it this way. Nobody, you know, so I'm like, damn, you know, nobody's telling me. me anything. Shit, I might as well just start making up something. So after watching the movie, I say, I'm just starting talking

with an African accent. Did you run it by anyone? I didn't run it by anyway. So I said, I'm going to run it to see how long before somebody says something. Nobody never said nothing. I'm like,

hell, what kind of operation is this? Because I don't know if it was my company, I would come to a hey book. But you kill the African accent. What damn it's going. No one never did it. So I say, let me just see exactly how stupid. I was just entertaining myself again, just like doing commentary in the back.

That's so good. It was just, you know, it was pretty funny. Actually, some of the stuff was really, really good. All the black snow stuff. Defive. The five is all about the five. That was damn good. You know, you know,

itty, beidi by de bo. Ety bidee bo. How can you lose with that? I mean, it was just great stuff. I had so much fun doing that. Jeremy Boras, man. I had him laughing so bad in a clip. He could barely.

hold a bike because he was laughing so hard. You know, so I always, I always say my TNA run doing the stuff with the African, it was good. It was cool. And a lot of people liked it. But I always say, I wish I would have worked harder. I wish I would have really worked hard and tried to, I don't know. I don't know, I just feel like that part of my career,

I wish I could change a little bit. Do you feel like because no one else seemed to care, what was the point in you caring? I know that was, I know 100% that's what it was. You know what I mean? No one, no one, it was really no direction. I got to do it with Dutchman Dale about a year ago about this, right? Because the word went around that I was lazy.

and TNA. And Dutch was one of the guys who were, you know, one of running things, you know. And I was doing that African accent. And I go, I was talking on the podcast with my partner, Brad. And I go, Dutch was one of the guys running things. And he never came to me one time and said,

hey, look, stop doing the accent. You know, I say, so I had the direction. You know, and Dutch came back and go, I just want to apologize. He's right. Because no one ever gave me any direction in that company, you know. And I got to the point to why just, you know, man, let me come to work and just have some fun.

You know, I got shit to do some cool stuff with AJ, some more Joe, Bobby Rood. And those are the guys I really, really wanted to work. And look where all those guys ended up. Yeah. All of them. All of them ended up in WW. It looked like you were having so much fun with Black Snow.

Like people still to this day quote you commentating your own matches. Yeah. Yeah, it was crazy. I always wanted to do the commentary. I beat down. But my wife and I, the week before Black Snow was born on television, and we went downtown to a hotel and we went to watch some spoken word

and it was this poet, and his name was Black Snow. And he told this beautiful story about Ms. Jackson and her three boys. And it was so compelling at the end of the night, I wanted to be Black Snow. And when I came to TV, that then they told us we was taking over the show,

I said, I'm gonna be Black Snow. And that's what I did. I just went out and I just acted like I was black children. I love when you look directly in the camera at the end and you go, Booker T is a bad man. That character was somebody else. That was a different character than Black Stone. You know, so I don't know, you know.

Sometimes I take on characters. It's just like the Joe Hendry song. Like singing Joe Hendry. It's like I'm a drunk person. It's like a drunk character. I don't know. I don't know where the boys come from. I don't know what the singing come from.

It's funny. I seem to take on different characters for different people. It's stupid, but I love it. When people ask the question of, like, if you could change the finish of any match, what would it be? I feel like it always comes back to your WrestleMania 19 match against Triple H. Was there ever talk of you winning that match? You know, the answer to the first point,

first, that would be the only match in my career that I could honestly say maybe, you know, if I could change that finish, you know what I mean, how to change it. But no, there was never any talk about me winning that match, you know, from the beginning.

I never went into that mess thinking I was winning. But there again, I've never gone into any match thinking that. I just never, I just never got involved in that side. And I know people might, you know, I know a lot of, I do so many people wanted me to win. So, and I love those people for it. And I, you know, and I always said, you know,

when I got into business, I said, man, I wish I have a Russell, I mean, I hope I'm in the main event, you know, at Russellmania one day, man. I just, I, then I just wish that, if I could just be in the main event, one day, you know. And then I got in the main event and I didn't win.

I go, man, I wish, I should have wished I would have won two. Yeah. It's one of the other little bit. Exactly. You know, it's one of those type of things. But, you know, but I just, you know, the story was, it was a great story. And any way you look at it, any way I,

any way I always looked at it was stories that was as real as it possibly could be for me. And a lot of, most people wouldn't understand it. Most people wouldn't understand it, you know, and I get it, I get it, you know, because it's, it's something that's, fictional to them, but, but it's real to me. And when I say that, I mean, you know,

I lost my dad when I was 10 months old. I lost my mom when I was 14, you know, quit school and got locked up in prison. And did I come out and find myself in the main event at WrestleMania? I think that's a win. Yeah. Yeah.

They don't win. And any kid that's looking at it, I needed them to understand, you know, I'm that kid. It went through all that trial and tribulation, but, yeah, I found myself being one of the best wrestlers in the world, you know, in the main event at WrestleMania.

I came that close to winning it, you know, my six world title. Yes. All right, I came close. I had five before that. You know, I came close to winning by six world title, you know, at WrestleMania. How long after that did you win number six? Took some years, I mean.

Yeah, it was a few years after that. That's King Booker. I never really thought about it, though. You know, I just never really thought. You know, even when I was going through time without the world title, I had some title, you know, it was. I had a title around my waist. I never really thought,

but I never thought about winning the world title one time. I really did. I never thought I would win the world title. It's not something that they, you know, give, you know, guys like me. But I was dead. I was pretty damn good to where, you know, I'll give Vince Russoe credit for lobbying for me to get that first one under my belt to, you know,

let the world see that, man, maybe this guy can really, you know, hold this position. You know, so, but, but I never really thought about it. But that match was, it was, it was special for me. A lot of, I remember one of the office guys, I was walking down the hallway, and, you know, he walked past,

when he goes, but you should have won tonight. Like, I appreciate it, man. You know, he's always one of my favorite people, too. I always love that, too. And, you know, but I never, you know, I never really thought about it. Even with my first world title, I remember walking that same way after one of the matches, you know. I probably, I think I had launched that night, too, you know. And I'm Gary Michael Capata back in the day announcer.

He goes, look, you're going to be the world champ one day. You're crazy, you know. It was before I never won the world. You know, so for me, it was. It was all about, I just wanted to be the best wrestler in the locker room. And all the guys, you know, I just wanted all the guys to know I was, you know, best wrestler in the locker room. And I used to debate with them if I was the best or not.

And they used to hate me. They really didn't like it. Who do you think was ever better than you? Especially in that WCW locker room. I was a lot of guys better than me. It was a lot of that. I mean, I wouldn't say a lot of guys. A couple.

I mean, it was, but I always knew how good I was. And I always knew I was competing. And with the guys in the locker room in WCW, I always told those guys how good I was every, every night. And I always, you know, I would throw it in their face, how good I was. I would go out and perform, and I would always come back and say, and we still talk about this, still to this day with some of those old guys, guys, you know, they still, they, that's why I know it burned a lot of them, you know,

because they'll still break it up, you know, and for me, I don't know why I was like that, but I always knew how good I was in ring, yeah. When was the last time you did a Harlem Hangover? I think with Big Show, but the Harlem Hangover, that's why I try to talk to these young wrestlers as far as, you got to know how to manage your career. You got to know how to, you know, get mileage out of everything. The Harlem Hangover, I only did the Harlem Hangover on television probably about eight to ten times by whole career.

So it wasn't a move only but for smoking mirrors. It wasn't for anything but for me to make people think that I was a high flyer. and I could do acrobats. And I was so afraid to the top rope. I'm scared of my own shadow when it come to being on the top row. Really? Yeah, I have. I'm so apostophobic, all of that stuff.

And I can't stand on the, if you look at me, if you go back and look at any of my top rope work, you're never going to see me standing straight up until it's time for me to actually go. And it was like, ready, set, go. Boom. If I didn't do it that way, I would fall off the top road. I couldn't get up there like macho, man.

And, you know, I could do that at all. I would be so afraid. Just getting up there, I feel like I'm so high up in it. It's the scariest thing in the world. So for me, that was just smoking mirrors. A lot of things in my career was just, you know, like smoke and mirrors to make fans think that, I mean, I couldn't do karate, you know what I mean?

But I could act like it. Yeah. It was smoking mirrors, you know. I could do a really beautiful spin kick, man. Jim Kelly was my favorite, you know, when I was coming up. You know, I always wanted to be the black samurai, you know, at least one time, you know, in my life. You know, so I was just living out by Jim Kelly dreams, you know, doing those stuff. Think you could do a Harlem Hangover now?

Heck, no. Man, I wouldn't, I'm back would be broken like three different places, you know, by trying something like that. Do you think you have another match in you? Because Trick Williams has called you out a few different times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I don't know what's wrong with these young guys. You know, I guess, you know, like, you know, people call that Mike Tyson. You know, people call them out of Floyd, you know.

I know I know I'm one of those legends too. People would have called me out and try to piggyback of my career, trying to get some prouty points, you know. But my thing is, can I do? do it, perhaps. But I've scratched every itch, you know, as far as the wrestling thing goes. You know, it's just like tonight we got summer champions, 12 going down in the building. So much young talent that's under my expert tutelich, you know, trying to get to get to that

next level. I'm so, I'm so focused and dialed into that. You know, I don't have anything to. prove, but but don't, don't, don't, don't, don't get it twisted. Don't get it twisted. You know, if I had to do something, don't think I won't put the boots back on and step back in and slap somebody around a little bit. That's, that, that easily could be done. And the thing is, I still do that on a, on a daily basis. Never say never. Never say nothing. There's a moment in the where Cody Rhodes and Brombreaker are about to go at it.

Cody takes off his Rolex and tosses it to you, which is probably terrifying. Can you catch this thing? It calls you T-Book. Why does it call you T-Book? You know, that's a family thing, man. That's a family thing that goes way back to what I, like before I was ever famous, you know,

before I ever got, like, over. And, you know, it's just a house show. And Dusty, Dusty Rhodes, you know, he always yelled. That's the only thing he's ever called me was Teabuck, you know. And Cody kind of like, you know, adapted it. But I remember coming through the curtain, you know, well before I was ever, you know, like I said, world champion or anything like that, TV champion before I had any,

like major titles, and he goes, I won't put your own first on Mo T-Buck. Yeah. I was like, oh, yeah, man. You know, that's what I knew. You know, when somebody like Dusty, you know, give you the stamp of approval, you know, like that, they won't put you on first number.

Because you're gonna mess it up for everybody else. Your match was too good. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, okay, I'm doing something right, you know. And again, I had so many people like that in my career that pushed me to the next level. And Dusty was always in my corner. He was always, you know, the guy,

that was, you know, pushing for my career to go in a certain direction, you know. So I always just one of my favorite. As well as Dustin, as well as Colvin's me. I love how much credit you give to everybody. And like you're standing on the shoulders of giants with the amazing career that you've had. You're not afraid to sit here and go, I'm not this person without this person and this person and this person, all these other people believing in you. I'm smart, man. No, I'm just smart.

I knew who to listen to when I was coming up. And there again, I had a lot of people that was unsung heroes, you know, that a lot of people don't even know that was wishing for me to do great things in the business just because they saw something in me. And I didn't know. I was like I said, I was a drum major, you know, in school. I never played sports or anything like that. I was always athletic.

I was always like a fool. Yeah, I could say that. I was always a fool. My sister and I, we was always the talent, you know, at Christmas time and Thanksgiving. You know, we always, you know, they had a dance routine, you know, stuff like that. Yeah.

So I was always, I was always that guy, you know. So for me, I don't know, God just, you know, they say God works in. mysterious ways. Really, that has to be true. It's interesting that you say, you listen. That was the key thing that allowed you to get to that next level.

For an indie talent right now that's trying to get to that next level, it's trying to break in, get noticed by WWE, what's the piece of advice they need? Man, it's really, really hard. It's really hard for the young guys these days. And I can say it. I can say it a thousand times, you know, but it's hard for them to really, really, really, perhaps to understand.

You know, but, you know, foundation is everything. The way you start is the way you're going to finish most of the times. And that's why I see, and I say that because, like, such as the NIL talent, the way they start, you know. And the way they start is they come straight into WWE. they learn from, you know, from, you know, some really good coaches. And then they put them on television immediately. They go straight on the TV, you know, and then if they're good enough to pick it up, boom, they, boom, they make your money right off the bat. Then you got these indie guys trying to get in it.

They've been out on the indie circuit, working the indie way, and then they come and try to get on television. That's not what we're looking for. So they got to figure out their foundation perspective, how am I going to do this, you know, start out doing this thing right? So a company like WWE is going to look at me. So having that foundation, like being, you know, around some place like reality of wrestling where, you know, all of those bad habits, you know, we don't want that here, you know, you know, getting with a coach that's going to, you know, guide you.

you know, how to get in there and do those fundamentals before and after properly, you know, opposed to, you know, jumping off something and turn the back flip, you know, that might, you know, that might be the guy you want to get with. Because my thing is, it's a different world because now you got the Internet, social media, and these guys flying around doing a lot of things. But if they got the fundamentals, if they got that groundwork, all of that could still work. Yeah.

We could still make all of this work. You know, we just had a match here just last night. These kids had a match. And the guy did a back flip over the top rope, and he landed on the guy outside. Boom. And the crowd went crazy to him. And before he could sneeze,

he had the guy back in the ring before, you know, the crowd can actually go, what the hell just happened? You know, I was having fun there. You just took it away from, he took all that joy away from everything. And I had to tell him that, you know. So I say the backflip still works, but give me this after. Because we know after that, this is getting ready to happen.

So we can work all. So it's just a matter of giving them that foundation so they can really learn what this thing is all about opposed to just, you know, doing moves. I always love having you on the show. Thank you always for your time. You are an absolute legend. It's a joy to share a conversation with you. All right.

You know that gratitude's a huge thing for me. I know it is for you as well. What are three things right now, book, as we sit here, and wrap up this conversation. What are three things you're grateful for? Oh, man, close my family, my health, God, and my life and having good people around me. I know that's four.

You can have as many as you want. But that's all. Pro wrestling might be in there, too. You know what? Pro wrestling is not on the, it's not really that high on the list. You know, it really is. I never looked at this thing for wrestling.

And for me right now, it's, what work could I hear you? What is this for me right now? It's really, that's really hard to say. It's because, you know, I get a chance to work,

you know, students here but then I got all my students at NXT and then I got all my students like on the main roster right now so this days in my career it's like it's like you're a teacher I'm a teacher but mentoring yeah mentoring teaching you know uh bestowing your knowledge it's crazy upon the next generation crazy you know what I mean is and I think that part right there for me is the best part really I love that yeah okay T thank you so much I've been