561: The Art Of Command. Action, Initiative, and Judgement.
00:00This is Janko podcast number 561 with Echo Charles and me,Johncoe,Good evening, Echo.Good evening.So General Melvin Zeiss was born May of 1916 in Fall River, Massachusetts,graduated from the University of New Hampshire in 1937.We spent some time in the reserves after doing the ROTC program,got his commission, and then he was brought into active duty.
00:23Guess what?World War II, WII, immediately volunteered for a,parachute trooper unit assigned to the 501stparachute infantry regiment also spent time at the 517thparachute infantry regiment as we know very fond of the of the parachute infantryregiments of course he fought in Italy southern France battle the bulge and in theKorean War he served as a military advisor to a Turkish brigade and then in Vietnam heHe's a commanding general of the 101st, also the commanding general of the 24th Corps in Vietnam.
01:06So this guy had a bunch of very high-ranking military leadership positions, but started off on the front in a bunch of time in combat.He eventually was promoted to the four-star general appointed to the commander allied land forces southeast Europe, which is there's no war going on at the time.So it's a cool position, but it's not, you know, a combat scenario.He's the recipient of four Army distinguished service medals, two silver stars,three legions of merit, two distinguished flying crosses, bronze star, and Purple Heart.So he saw a lot.He learned a lot.And he passed some of these lessons on about a year after he retired.
01:49He retired in 1976 and 1977.He made a speech.And I think it's something that we can all learn a little from.So let's get into the speech.The speech is called Leadership and the Art of Command.Once again, by General Marvin Zeiss, United States Army.Here we go.March 1977.
02:10I have devoted two-thirds of my life to the study of leadership and the art of command,either by observation, experience, or reading.I have, as a consequence, developed some thoughts, some prejudices,and a variety of interesting quotes and an absolute conviction that leadership defies.definition. Interesting.One can define what is wanted, but exactly how to do it and what characteristics areessential is the $64 question.Now, this is 1977.
02:40Maybe he did mean $64 million question, but he says $64 question.Some people are born leaders.Others are developed leaders and a few are nothing until pressures are imposed on them,which bring forth amazing demonstration.of leadership.So some people are born into it.Some people developed into it.Some people just get put in the moment and they rise to the occasion.
03:06However, the most disappointing are those who seem to have all the accepted qualificationsuntil the pressure comes and then they fold.That's such a good tie in to the military incompetence.You know, these people that have, they look squared away and they kind of act squared away,especially when nothing bad is happening, but when the pressure comes, they just freak out.I've seen that quite a few times in my life.There is a cult of leadership study which is thriving today because its growth is fertilizedby government research dollars.
03:46These are the behavioral scientists who would tabulate traits, mannerisms, characteristics,habits, morals, physical attributes, and lifestyles.They convert these data from their witches brew to bars, graphs, curves, models, and matrices in the most scientific manner, and then peddle their conclusions to the government, the business world, and to each other.It is like so many of my golfing friends who are suffering from paralysis of analysis.The pitfalls or potential pitfalls associated with this scientific and ordered approach are captured well in this excerpt from Edmund Fuller's review of James McGregor Burns' recent book, Leadership.So a guy named James McGregor Burns wrote a book called Leadership, and here's a review of it.And it's a pretty harsh review.So he says, this reviewer says, leadership is one.
04:50of the most observed and least understood phenomenon on earth.So says Pulitzer Prize and National Book Award-winning historian biographer JamesMcGregor Burns at the outset of a large, ambitious work, leadership.It is commonly remarked these days as an expression of frustration that the world is criticallyshort of leadership, the views of its present leaders to this contrary notwithstanding.Thus, this formidable work seemed timely and I approached it with great expectations.So this guy wrote in this review.He's like, hey, man, we need leadership.
05:28We got some dearth of leadership in the world.This guy, this historian and biographer, award winning, Pulitzer Prize winning, wrote this book.So he's ready for this.He's ready to hear what this guy has to say.In the upshot, I am sorely disappointed.Having mold over many things that Professor Burns puts before us, interesting as some are,I do not feel I have emerged with sufficient illumination,but have come out through the same door by which I entered.
05:55So I didn't get anywhere.Professor Burns has demonstrated in several books that he can write excellent English.He has elected not to do so here.I got to say, though, it is kind of, you know, when you're sitting,you're a critic and you just get to sit on the sidelines and just throw darts,it's kind of a bummer.But that's what we're doing.A few of his opening and closing pages and narrative or biographical passages are clear and informative, but the bulk of the work is written in jargon derived from sociology and psychology.
06:30An early example, not necessarily the worst.And here it is, quote, power over other persons we have noted is exercised when potential power wielders motivated to achieve certain goals of their own,Marshall in their power base resources, economic, military, institutional, or skill that enable them to influence the behavior of respondents by activating motives of respondents relevant to those resources and to those goals.Page after, end quote, page after page of such prose is brain damaging.Professor Burns has addressed his book to the people from whom his central ideas are drawn.It is no accident that the men quoted on the back of the jacket offer such accolades as a stunning book, a masterwork.They are all academics, sociologists, psychologists who talk to each other in their own jargon as seen in numerous quotations from within the book.So there's a pretty rough review.
07:36And then he continues with this speech.One of my sons will soon complete such a graduate course in preparation for an assignment to the leadership department at West Point.I am certain that he will learn a great deal.I am not as sure that having acquired an advanced degree in behavioral science, he willipso facto become a better leader.Later, I will list some approaches which seem to help me the most, and even as I do so,I will be well aware of the previous expressed reservations about one's ability to defineand describe this elusive quality of leadership.
08:09Let me start out with some interesting definitions by others and thus set up some straw men that we can later dignify or demolish.These guys right up your alley here with the straw man.The first is a definition of He Who Would Command by Charles Burnap.I've carried this definition around with me for many years.I've read it often.It has helped me.It may or may not help you for a definition is one thing and how to live up.to the definition is another.
08:41In essence, that is the catch-22.So you might know the definition, but how do you live up to it?And here's the definition that he's talking about.Quote, decision of character is one of the most important of human qualities,philosophically considered,speculation, knowledge is not the chief end of a man.It is action.We may, by a fine education, learn to think,
09:09most correctly and talk most beautifully. But when it comes to action, if we are weak and undecided,we are of all things the most wretched. All mankind feel themselves weak, beset with infirmities andsurrounded with dangers. The acutest minds are the most conscious of difficulties and dangers.They want, above all things, a leader with that boldness, decision and energy, which with shamethey do not find in themselves.Give us the man, shout the multitude,who will step forward and take the responsibility.Hmm.
09:52He is instantly the idol, the Lord,and the king among men.He then who would command among his fellowsmust first excel them more in energy of willthan in their power of intellect, end quote.And again, that's from a book called He,who would command by Charles Burnap.And this, you know, Zeis says that, you know,
10:17that's kind of a definition that he carried around.Better take ownership of what's going on.You better take responsibility.You better step up.It's not about thinking.It's not about talking.It's about doing.Can't send out little well-crafted emails
10:29and think that now everyone's gonna get,oh, cool, I'm inspired by this, let's go.Like, no, you gotta do stuff.You gotta take action.Here's another one by SLA Marshall.And we, of course, we have reservationsabout SLA Marshall.but you know, we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
10:46In his book, The Officer as a Leader.And he says, quote,any man, whatever be his rank,can command who has the courage to tryand the brain to see clearly what other men miss.Yeah, that's kind of a big deal.You know, there's like the whole,you know the grind culture.
11:04Grine, you know, grind, hustle culture.Which is like, hey, if you just work hard,like, of course, you're going to be successful.And that's not.not necessarily true because you can work really hard and you cannot be successful.You know before what was that what were we talking about before? Oh yeah I was talking beforewe hit record I was talking about a song by the black keys and it says you know me I have plansbut they just disappear to the back of my mind and I was talking about that has just catches so many
11:35people like they have good plans but then they're not really going to do anything with those plans.Yeah. And so that even havingplans is a little bit rewarding for people.Yeah, fully.You know, I think that's why people buy lottery tickets.They can spend that day.That's why people look at Zillow.Yeah, that's real.
11:56You know what I'm saying?They're like, oh, well, man, you know, hey, you know, come up with a plan, right?That's why people write down plans, you know, they write down, I haven't right,this down.They tell people.There's that, there's that weird dichotomy about, you know, if you want to do something,And you should tell everyone that you're going to do it.Because then you're putting yourself out there and you're exposing yourself to ridicule if you don't actually do it.
12:21And that is a technique.But there's also a reality that when you tell people, you get a little dopamine hit and that's kind of good enough.Right, right.Satisfaction.So if you're talking about, like, I'm going to write a book.Yeah.And you talk like, hey, guys, I'm writing a book, you know.I've known people that have quote unquote been writing books for really long times.
12:41Yes, sir.You know?Yeah.Years and years and years and years and years and actually the writing of a book doesn't look it can take long you're doing research or whatever you're doing but it's notIt shouldn't be decades. You know what I'm saying? I understandSoNot telling anyone is a methodology too. So do you tell everyone hey, I'm writing a book and everyone goes how's the book coming along? OhWell, you know, I'm still writing it. You still get the little dopamine nip just from that or you shut your mouth and you just do the shit that you're supposed to do
13:10Yeah, but that the reason II say this is because even if you are disciplined and you lock in and you write the book,there's absolutely zero guarantee that one single person ever reads that book.Or you lock in and you, you know, learn your guitar and you practice and you're like,all right, I did all the work.I put in all the work.And now I'm going to be a rock star.No, you're not.
13:35Well, most likely you're not.Or you like you'll hear like the in the Hollywood world.You just got to keep auditioning.keep auditioning you gotta keep going there you can do that for your entire life literallyyou can you can die and never like maybe get a couple commercials or whatever but i'm saying justbecause you put in the hard work doesn't mean that it's going to be successful i'll tell you whatif you don't put in the work i can guarantee it's not going to be successful so we at least have toput our chips on the table right the reason i say this is because he says the courage to try yep but also
14:10the brain to see clearly what other people miss.So if you're just trying hard, but you're not really sure 100% like what to actually dois not necessarily helpful.You may not find yourself in a leadership position because you're telling people to do dumb shit.Yeah.Yeah, that tends to be how the hustle culture, grind culture, whatever, seems to be like theykind of, it seems like it anyway, or they focus on the repetitive, you know, nature of itrather than the actual progress of it.
14:38Yeah.So yeah, and I think that's why I mean, it's obvious now that I'm seeing it out loud.I think that's why it gets such a bad rap after a while.Oh, because people are like, yo, I grinded.Yeah, grind every day and they're like, but bro, like, you're still.I'm still here.I'm still in this rough situation.Yeah, yeah.
14:55But my grind isn't paying off.Your grind isn't guaranteed to pay off.I can guarantee that if you don't grind, you'll get no payoff.No one's going to come knocking on your door like, oh, I heard you want to publish a bookor I heard you want to, you know, build this, or heard you want to build this app.can really help you do that.Yeah.Although there are people that they'll email you and they'll be like, hey,
15:15at least I get like connections and I'll get a connection from someone that'll say,hey, I really, I'm really impressed with your background and I'll have some random AI generated.Like, I saw that you led, you know, Task Unit Bruiser in the Battle of Vermonti and also now have a leadership consulting company and a clothing company and it'll say this random AI stuff.And it'll say, have you ever thought about sharing your story?story. We think it would be a big hit in a book. We could help you write. I haven't everresponded to me like, do a little, a little extra research. But doing that kind of just doingthe grind and doing the grind and doing the grind and you, you think it's going to be guaranteed.No, that's not guaranteed. It's guaranteed that no one's going to come knock on your door
15:59and say, hey, here's the deal that you always want it. That's not going to happen. So we at leasthave to put chips on the table. And that's what I think SLA Marshall here is saying.All right, continuing on with SLA Marshall's quote,I am quite sure that I have known personallya greater number of emergent combat leadersthan any man living.Dude, this dude's really,he's got a big high opinion of himself.
16:21But we know that about SLA Marshall.So again, we're not throwing out the baby with the battle water.None was a genius or possessed of a better than average IQ.Of course, you're not going to be as smart as Mr. SLA Marshall, right?As a type, they are stolid rather than imaginative.and it is usually the lack of flair rather than a failure to conform to what is asked of themthat denies them promotion or special recognition until their preeminent qualities are proved under fire.Their spirits are fanned by danger.
16:55Other men rally to them in emergency because they take positive action.There is the key word.These clutch hitters are able to fill the void caused by the failure of appointed leadershipbecause they do not mistake the appearance of that position for the reality.So when it's time to step up, these dudes step up.And that's the end of the quote.Except for putting us down as a stolid and rather unimaginative and at average IQ.He says the same thing as does Charles Burnup.
17:28He says the key word is positive action.As with Burnap's definition, it is easy to understand what is wanted.The real problem is in determining how to get.get how one gets to be that way.Another catch-22.Maybe the command sergeant major Walter Kruger has the answer.In a letter to Army magazine, he wrote the following.Some basics for young leaders.
17:55Isn't it nice that this stuff is laid out?Some basics for young leaders.There must have been millions of words written on leadership, another thousand pages on motivation,and even more on counseling.Bro, he wrote this in 1977.It's exponential now.All the while, behavioral scientists attempt to penetrate the human psyche to find even more ways of doing what?Getting the job done.
18:21Modern terminology boggles the mind.Directive, non-directive, eclectic, organizational development, organizational effectiveness, synergistic communications and so on.Have you seen those videos where people are talking in corporate speak on like a call?Yeah.Yeah, those are good.Yeah, there's sales ones too where they're like, you know, like sales jargon has like a,and there's like a methodology or whatever that they're teasing.They'll be like two friends, you know, so it's like when your sales friend is trying to convince you to go out with them, you know,
18:53so they'll be like, hey, do you want to get some beers or whatever?And they'll be like, no, he goes, let me ask you this.Is it the beers that doesn't want you to do or is it the going out?You know, so like, it's like, okay.Oh, classic.continuing on add priority pressures as what to do first short fuse missions career apprehensiona family with the measles and an alcoholic squad leader it gets to be a rather full dayafter day after day I would propose it because that's what you're really dealing with
19:23and he's actually got a really cool part that he talks about in this book which is like what youspend 80% of your time doing I would propose a few this is still the command sergeant majorWalter Krueger, I would propose a few things.They don't subvert the new titles,nor are they a panacea for the ne'er-do-well.They're not Brown-Shue Army either,although they have been around a long, long time.They're just statements that do not need explanation.
19:51Listen to your soldiers.Instill pride, never degrade.Set reasonable standards.Never lie to soldiers.Be hard, but be fair.Be as good as your word.Train hard.Your life really depends on it.
20:07Keep your soldiers informed.Be honest in all things.Respect all soldiers.That about covers leadership, including all the fancy words.I'm not against any method, but sometimes I, maybe you do too, get confused with all the reinventing and new tools we have.If they do nothing else, they get us thinking about leadership, and that's just great.So listen to your soldiers and still pride never degrade.What I love about these old things is you hear people, you'll hear people talk about, you know, back in the day, the leadership, you know, you could, you could, you could yell at people and scream at people and you could everyone you, people, people, you know, they used to just snap too.
20:50It's like, no, they hated you.They might have done it, right?But people think that the old school leadership was all, all different than it should be.No, and it wasn't.Good leadership looks like good leadershipThen and now Dick Winner's classic exampleCompared to CaptainSobel that's like you can just go back to that thing
21:08Over and over and over againWait, it wasYou know, it was 1940, 1943The rank structure was in placeThe captain says to do something they'll do itNo actually they rebelled against that guyThey got him firedYou know what I mean? That's what the reality is
21:24Yeah, that one that you didIt was a while agoRemember the one I made the videoof, you know, you'll give,all of them.Like, even that, if you listen to that whole thing,not just that excerpt on the video,but it talks about like how, yeah,
21:39your soldiers need, like, emotional support.Like, straight up.This is like World War II.I was like, bang, bro.Yeah, World War II.Hard dudes.Continuing on, the definition,which I find most amusing
21:52and yet filled with puckish wisdomis that expressed by General Motion Dianeafter the Sinai campaign.He says this.A leader should be moral.He should not drink heavily, play around with women, be careless in his private affairs,ever put pleasure before business, or failed to know his people intimately as individuals.So you have a paragon who observes all of these rules, and he is still no leader.
22:25In fact, if he is that perfect, leading is the thing at which he is mostly,likely to fail. Interesting. I knew leaders like that. And you know, we've talked about EagleScouts before. Yeah. And how Eagle Scouts, the guy asked me on the underground podcast,hey, and should I strive to become an Eagle Scout? Will it help me in my military career? And I'm like,well, it might. If being an Eagle Scout makes you learn some skills and you're humble and you'vebeen in a leadership position, you've learned how to listen to people, yeah, it'd be very helpful, very cool.If it makes you think you're better than people, it's going to be a disaster. So I've,known people that they were
23:02they they theycould tell that they thought that they were better than everyone elseyeah and it's a problem yeah it's a real problemyeah even not just the the mereidea of um relateabilitylike if you can't like relate to the person at allyou know it's like brad you don't want to come to them with yourx y z problem you know no um
23:23the moral here is don't be perfectanother catch 22finally I findthe most simplistic quote designed to tranquilize those who are tired of trying to improve themselves.A man may acquire knowledge, but leadership like wisdom is a gift from God.Interesting. When I reflect on leaders whom I have known, I find tall and short, noisy and quiet,extrovert and introvert, intellectual, and bore, which reminds me of an efficiency report,which I read when I was serving on a promotion board.
24:01The Raiders said,this officer is equally at ease with intellectualsand those in authority.Another said,Smith is not a born leader yet.It is interesting that I've known the same thing.I knew leaders that were tall, short,noisy, quiet, extrovert, introvert.
24:22And like, I'm talking good leaders,I've known good leaders with all those different thingsand bad leaders with all those different things.You know, just because someone's a dynamic,articulate speaker doesn't mean they're a good leader.Just because someone is quiet and kind of awkward doesn't mean they're a bad leader.Smith is not a born leader yet.Kind of cool.
24:42Kind of a cool attitude to have.That's a classic dig too.This officer is equally at ease with intellectuals and those in authority.That is awesome.If I was still in the military, I'd use that.There seems to be some unknown chemistry which makes an man an exceptional leader.And again, this is what is the irrational tenth that I talked about on a podcast prior,the T.E. Lawrence, the it factor, all those things.
25:13This applies in other fields of endeavor as well.For example, recently I was listening as Richard Burton, the famous actor,was being interviewed by Barbara Hawar on Who's Who.He offered the view that many actors are as able as he is,but by some strange trick of personality, he has been more successful.If one wants to learn to be successful, this is a strange will of the wisp of adviceand leaves little to emulate except a certain degree of modesty or self-effacement,neither of which are his long suits.
25:48John Ruskin said, I fear uniformity.You cannot manufacture great men any more than you can manufacture gold.So even what's Richard Burton is like, hey, there's a lot of actors that are as good as me.I just got something.I got a little something.Now, part of that could be luck, right?Part of it's like, oh, you, you know, this person got that role in this particular time.But what's interesting, you hear like these big actors, if they didn't get that one big role, they got some other big role.
26:19You know what I mean?Like they had something.Yeah.Yeah.And that's a, that's, the acting thing is about.is a good example and even music is like that too where the results are so variable you know solike a good actor like we even we know this where you can grab any successful like any of thetop successful actors you can easily find big groups of people who just don't like them right they
26:43hate on them they're like oh i don't like them they and they find something wrong with it whethermaybe they're just not their their flavor and some people they're just hating to hate right butthat so acting music this kind of stuff it's like a lot of the the fundamental format is one person'sperformance verse or on top of or should I say mixed with the kind of for lack of better termthe environment so like if you say okay you got a good actor he's they have a skill of actingnow it's like okay how do they look how do they um you know how do they present themselves justnormally as a human being on top of the or underneath the character and then whatwhat requirement is there, like what movie do they have to play or what character do they have to play, right?
27:26So it's like, okay, you know, like, okay, James Bond, for example, right?James Bond has many characters or actors that play James Bond, right?So you know how, and they get varying levels of kind of like appreciation, we'll say, right?So like Sean Connery, everyone loves the Sean Connery, right?But, you know, one of the other guys, Roger Moore, actually Roger Moore, I like Roger Moore, too.But, you know, some of the newer guys, they'll be like, that guy's not my James Bond.You know, I like this guy, you know, kind of a thing, right?So you can get a good actor with, he has good looks or whatever, but he plays like the wrong role.
27:58And then they kind of get like shunned a little bit.Like there's a word for, I forget what it is.It's like actor jail or purgator.I don't know, something like this.But you're right about that it's bad luck because it's like, how does this actor with their skills interact with the character and then interact with the actual movie itself?You see what I'm saying?Yeah, that's what I'm saying.So there's a level of luck in there.
28:19Yes.But what I'm saying also, in addition to luck is like these people that end up quote unquote making it.Yeah. They kept going. And and then they quote unquote got lucky, right?Meaning they had the thing. And they just needed to have an opportunity to have an opportunity.And listen, I've been there's like I got in my algorithm, I got this freaking a world champion like beyond world champion scrabble player.Hell yeah.I watched like a 20-minute documentary about this dude.He's beyond,
28:53he's beyond human capability in Scrabble.Yeah.Like he,they have computer,whatever,AI that,that will play Scrabble.And they'll run the,
29:07the protocol or run a game that he,he conducted.And they'll run AI,like the smartest computer.And it won't be as good as him.And,And the question is like if the Scrabble didn't exist, what would this dude be doing?Right.
29:24Like, I mean, he'd probably be good at something, but that's like a weird little skill to have.Yeah.And luckily, there's an opportunity for him to shine in the world.And that's, see how you said shine.Like let's say shine is kind of a slang term, obviously.But I know what you mean.We know what you mean by shine.Like we'll say be successful in the world, I said.
29:48So what does that look like, right?So that guy, the Scrabble guy, and let's say a good actor or a good perform, whatever, like, they'll still be good.Yeah, yeah.They'll be really good at whatever it is that they're good at whatever, but will they be quote unquote successful?Will they shine in the world?That's where it's kind of that luck, which is kind of the combination between their circumstances and their skill.Yep.So there's certainly going to be luck involved.
30:11Yeah.But there's more, there's not, it's more than luck.You got to have what this dude's saying, what Richard Burt.and saying like hey you can get lucky i mean there's there's countless people other end of thespectrum they get lucky they score a role right they had the right look it was right timing orwhatever and then they make one movie and it's like oh yeah that guy wasn't good right so they didn't haveit right they got lucky they didn't have it so it's more important to have this quality yeah so it's likeessentially you know the expression make your own luck right so basically what that is i mean the way
30:44I see it anyway.It's,yeah,you get lucky if you're,luck is basically,if you break it down,luck is basically the,something coming through fruition
30:52that's positive,that's very unlikely.That's like luck, right?But if you create as many opportunities as you can by,you know,whether it be preparation,tenacity,um,
31:02observing opportunities good,you know,and learning like that kind of something.Yeah,you kind of create your own luck.So yes,when you say,uh,
31:08someone who just has it,like,oh,I have it,then yeah,they might fail and they'll immediately be looking atHow do I interact with my environment, you know, so I can create, create more luck.Increase the probability of success.
31:20Yeah.I'm not trying to discourage anybody, by the way.Sure.Like, we got to put our chips on the table.Like, you have to.What, it must suck to get to be on your deathbed and you still have all your chips in yourpocket.You know what I mean?
31:34And you didn't really put into work to, to, to have the opportunity to get lucky.You know what I'm saying?So get out there and get after it.Yeah.Continuing on, despite all the conflicting evidence which I have inflicted on you, I do have some advice to offer in certain points and certain points to make.If you heed them, you may, and I'm cautious to use the qualifying phrase may advance more rapidly and to a higher grade than your fellow officers.And you may improve your leadership qualities and your ability to command because leadership potential can be developed.This is something I've been saying for years.
32:10You can become a better leader.You might not have all those little natural gifts.You might have some of them, but you can definitely get better.These pearls of wisdom come under the heading of pipe smoking, pop-bellied, pontificating,profundities.And even if you agree with them, you may not be able to or care to place them in effector practice them.I like that this dude's like retired after however many 40 years or something in the army,
32:35and he still was just like, whatever.Like, yeah, I'm the old pipe-smoking, pop-bellied pontificating dude.Like, I see.I know that I'm talking to you young cadets out there.Okay, here we go through the list.Leadership is the ability to get other people to do what you want them to do.I add into that for the good of the team of the mission, right?Otherwise, it's just manipulation.
32:58If I'm just trying to get echo to do something that's going to benefit me, that's not really, that's not leadership.That's just manipulation.So I have to add in there what you want them to do for the good of the team, for the good of the mission.How one develops this capability is closer to an opportunity.art than it is to science. The ability to get others to respond is a primary prerequisite,however, and the lack of this ability explains why some very able, bright, conscientious youngmen flourish in their youth and then begin a gradual fade out in their middle years. These are themen who will do everything well as long as the results are dependent on their own efforts. While they
33:36are young and their tasks are minor, they are judged solely on their own performance, but asThey move up in the hierarchy.They are increasingly required to delegate responsibility and to create in their subordinatesa strong desire to do that which has been directed by them.These men are subject to terrible disappointment and often bitterness because they watch as theyare passed by contemporaries who in earlier years did not perform as well as they did.So you can be, this is the classic thing where I'm like, oh, you can be a great salesman oryou can be a great plumber, but then when you get promoted, you don't do well.
34:11because you didn't have that skill and you didn't learn that skill.I recommend you learn the skill.It also explains why some slow starters who suffer from inpatients with detail andunwillingness to seek perfection in small matters, but who have the ability to influenceothers to perform, finally come into their own and advance rapidly.This explains why the class leaders at the service academies, colleges, and even advancedservice schools are often not leaders in the field.one should therefore not be surprised to discover that many of our great leaders stood low in their class
34:45the lesson here is obvious the least you can learn to do is delegate the ability to inspire othersto perform is more difficult so the least you can do is learn to delegate but learning howto inspire others a little bit more tricky next one a young officer can and should learn by observationand imitation of his admired superiors and by rejection of the modus operandi of those he doesnot respond to.Often more is to be learned from the latter.I know I learned a lot from these shitbirds out there that were leadership positions over me.I learned what I wasn't going to do.
35:26However, human nature is such that we tend to treat others as we have been treated evenwhen we did not like the treatment.And then we justify the action with the rationale of that is how it was for me.That's so this is like you know the cycle of child abuse right is the cycle of I had a crappy leader and who yelled and scream and that's what we're doing so I'm going to yell and scream. Yeah there's that's that's prob and then I don't know I can't read everybody's mind but I felt for myself that that's like that idea is very part like there's like they're hidden in little parts of my mind as far as like you know my dad used for example my dad used to um if you wanted us to I don't know hurry up he'd grab us by the.elbow here and squeeze it, like to pull us to where we're supposed to go, like,get out of the car, get in the, and whatever. And he'd squeeze the elbow and it freakinghurt, but it was effective, you know, because you're like, ah, but it freaking hurt and I hate,like, I hated it. And I remember thinking how effective that was, you know, like, I'm not
36:28going to necessarily do XYZ or say XYZ to my kids when I have kids, but that, I'm keeping thatin the tool belt, you know, like a good move. Yeah, you know, a little bit. And then,when I had kids, I was like, bro, that's fucking kind of mean.Only because I had that moment of clarity, you know, kind of a thing.But I was prepared.I was ready.Have you ever used it?Never.
36:48Uh-oh.It's true.I got to, there was a very specific point.I told you about it off offline that I was like physically harming my kids.I, as of right now, I believe that that is, yeah, I'm not doing it physically harm.You know, especially for like compliance stuff.Like I did, I don't know.I don't know.
37:06I can't think of any circumstances.that it's like the move, you know?Yep. Yep.I agree with you.And by the way, we got asked a question like this on the underground as well.It was like about spanking kids.And I looked up, you know, did the quote unquote research.And everything I read was like, no, it's not helpful.
37:26Yeah.It's not helpful.And I didn't spank my kids either.And, you know, I never, I always felt like if I had to do that, bro, I really likedropped the ball a long time ago.If I got to inflict pain on my kids.Yeah.Like,
37:44and my kids will tell you what,I mean,I remember my kids,I actually,on that situation,I was going through the questionsfor this underground podcast that we made.And it was like,
37:56oh,do you spank your kids?And I was like,no.And then I kind of had to confirm.Couldn't really remember,you know,and I went down and asked my kids.
38:02I was like,oh, did I spank?Did I spank?Did I spank?I said, do I spank you guys?They're like, no, no.And then they're like, we wish you would have.Because the psychological warfare was worth, was worse.
38:13Yeah, it was worse.So, you know, meaning I would like shun them and like ostracize them, you know,and make them feel, you know, and again, it made them feel really bad, you know.And so worse than they just thought of spanking.Yeah, kind of a little bit of a luxury, dude.It was like, give me a couple cracks and call it good.Let's, let's move on.You know, because I would hold that grudge, you know, a little bit crazy.
38:35I can see it.And again, I'm not, what's, I'm not, I'm not condoning this type of behavior.It would have been better to be a little bit more, you know, a little bit more.Let's address it.Let's talk about it.Let's see what you were thinking, that kind of thing.But, you know, had to grow up a little bit, my damn self.Yeah.
38:52Yeah.But that's correct.What he's saying where it's like a lot of people, they don't, because I didn't until I did.But I wasn't thinking about like, wait, is this for real correct?Like, is this the best way to do this as far as like,can like figure out or learn about or whatever you know kind of thing so there's a lot of II kind of even wondering out like what am I am I doing stuff that I just figured just like I saylike where it's this brother that's all I was done so I'm just going to keep it going you see what
39:17I'm saying but yeah you got to kind of be conscious of that kind of stuff check um nextcontinuing on that explains some of the very harsh treatment met met meet it out in recruittraining and boot camp it also has general application for example most people who brutalizetheir children's were themselves beaten were themselves beaten by their parents in my career i wasfortunate to serve under only two men whom i considered sadistic or terribly egotistical i learned agreat deal from them mostly i had the good fortune to serve under close serve under and closelyobserve the conduct of such men as matthew b ridgeway who actually i think we're going to get intoon the next podcast Maxwell d taylor james m gavin chryton w abrams and many others i watch these
40:01men very closely. My wife is continually astonished at how much I remember about my former commandersand colleagues. I watch them and I try and learn, which brings me to my next point. Next point isyou must adapt to your commander. Wow, this is smart. He does not adapt to you. This is an issueon which more officers founder than any other I know. I think he probably meant to say flounder.It is also the most difficult advice to live up to when faced with a commander who violates yourown sense of justice or code of ethics.I will be happy to discuss this further in the next question and answer period.This is the speech.
40:38We won't get to hear his question.Question answer.Although in this document, there's like little notes that he's made, which is interesting.My next advice is, this is another.Just put this one in the books, man.Don't fight higher headquarters.I know that many of you consider the next higher headquarters as your natural enemy.It requires.
41:00strong willpower and a level had to keep your cool, but if you will find it counter,but you will find it counterproductive to engage in a running battle with your boss and his staff.Isn't it weird that that's just so obvious when you sit here and read it,but it's such a reality that he says that most people consider their boss in the upper echelon,their natural enemy?Save your complaints for the very important issues.There's nothing more tiresome as a quibbling, griping, uncooperative, subordinate unit command.Hold your tongue and sweat your man.
41:33I don't really know what that means.Hold your tongue and sweat your man.I don't know.When you rarely complain, people listen.Mm-hmm.That I do know.Next, don't ask for guidance or you will get more than you want.If you are operating within general policy, move out and display initiative.
41:53If your boss doesn't like it, he will inform you.His opinion of you drops off with each succeeding CWRWR,request for approval.So legit.Don't ask for guidance or you'll get it.That's smart.And of course, it's not never asked for guidance.Obviously there's something unclear and you gotta look at the boss, we get that.
42:15But if that's your habit and every time you're just going, hey boss, it okay if I do this, hey boss, if I do this, hey boss, if I do this, hey boss, if I, so you don't want to take responsibility.You want me to, you want me to take responsibility.Okay, cool.Got it.Opinion is dropping.Next, the most successful leaders.do more than is expected of them.You must pay the price.
42:34It is a conscious choice, and I must admit that I have often envied many of my contemporarieswho became much better golfers, bridge players, grass cutters, and commissary shoppers than I.Even so, you need not become a drudge or a workaholic.I played golf, poker, fished, hunted, drank, danced, and generally had a good time.So, yeah, you got to put in that extra work.You don't need to be a monk.Next, you must be able to establish priorities and meet deadlines.This, again, is where the perfectionist often becomes a cropper.
43:14I replaced a very able man as G3 of the 82nd Airborne Division because he tended to work onthe top paper in his in-basket rather than the most important or time-sensitive thing.Prioritized and execute all day.Whichever paper he worked on, you could be sure, was a masterpiece.of attention to detail and thoroughness.However, he was often late with his effort,and while he was laboring with periods and commas,the world was passing him by.
43:39You must also be able to whip out an effort in the time allotted,even though you know you could do a better job given more time.Your boss will soon learn which of his subordinates can get with a problem in a hurryand come up with something when he needs it.Boom.I mean, this is just classic, you know,this is the whole principle of prioritized.execute. As you move up, you must broaden your perspective. I recall that Sir William Slim,
44:08chief of the British Imperial General Staff, was the Kermit Roosevelt lecturer when I was at thecommand and general staff college in 1947. He talked about the art of high command. He had commandedthe 14th Army in Burma, and he reduced his hour lecture to three points dealing with the art ofhigh command. It was no papers, no details.and no regrets.Bro, that is a freaking decentralized command.No papers, no details, and no regrets.It's freaking legit.
44:42Next, read about our great leaders.I equate this approach to the case history mentionedof teaching at the Harvard Business School.When you read the lives of MacArthur,Marshall, Arnold, Nimitz, King, Bradley, Ridgeway,and many others, you will learn a great deal.Whether you can or will apply itis another matter,
45:00but first must come learning and understanding.Next, before, not against.I'm going to say that again, before, not against.Most great leaders are positive.They establish goals and achieve them,or they have an idea and test it,or they have a dream, and they try and fulfill it.People who are for things, people who are for things are vibrant.
45:28Oh, got it.People who are for things are vibrant, filled with electricity, radiating energy and enthusiasm.People who are against things tend to be dull, negative, uninspiring, and boring.They cast a pall on every gathering and they are a wet blanket.We try to avoid them.They are not doers.Be a forer, not an againster.Happiness in the final analysis is something to be enthusiastic about.
45:56Charles M. Schwab said a man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiasmAlmost anythingYou can do everythingAlmost everything I think that's interesting that he outlined in that right thereWhat what part be a for we're and against her because IBe a for not an against her yeahMaybe it's my environment, but I feel like that's an important element of existing with peopleYeah, because we are
46:26all experienced that you know we all know the person who like right you come with them over thereyeah you know like oh hey i just i don't know did something good and they're like well i hope and thenit's like something bad or whatever it's people don't talk about that enough i think right nowgiven the stuff that i hear out there you know because this that's a huge deal yeah yeah for sureit much like um people that are insane do not know that they're insane yeah i feel like people thatare negative oftentimes don't know that they're negative it's just part of their inherent yeah but if youjust can detach enough to pay attention to what you're saying and you can go oh you know what how does thatactually sound what I just said right there yeah I don't know if that's really good I don't know if I'm
47:10very positive about this yeah and by the way what's interesting about it it is a personality typeyou know what I mean it's not like you know you give me something and you know sometimes I'm like ohyou know I'm not sure about that and then other times I'm like oh yeah that's a go it'sLike you end up with a personality type,oh, we can probably make that happen.You ever get like admit people in administrative positionsand when people complain about them,they're looking for a way to say no
47:36as opposed to a way to say yes.Oh, yeah, yeah.You're like, hey, what are we gonna?Hey, you think we could do this?No, I think we can.As well as like, no, that'll never work.Just be a person that says, try and say yesinstead of try and say no.
47:46And that's the interesting thing.Some people try and say yesand some people try and say no.Their goal is to say no.Such a freaking bummer.I don't know what is that an ego driven thing where it's like I don't like I don't want echo to have the good ideaSo when you're like hey I think we should make this thing I'm like well I don't knowYeah, I mean yeah, maybe I mean I'm sure it's kind of a whole lot of everything you know in there
48:09But I'm thinking of vague experiences that I've had and it doesn't feel like egoIt just feels like yeah it feels like they're just a downer. That's how they are they that's how they liveYou know maybe it's like I don't know maybe it could be a partially of this like youyou know this idea of, let's say you're in a bad mood, right?Just as an individual, random, arbitrary individual, you're in a bad mood.And then someone comes to you with, like, a good mood and good news and stuff.And you're kind of like, that mismatch kind of bothers you.You know, like, bro, I'm over here, like, in a bad mood.
48:42And you're over here, like, in a good mood.Like, how dare you, you know, ruin my bad mood kind of a thing.Don't mess up my bad, man.Yeah, you know.So it feels like kind of that.With your cheer.Yeah, exactly. So it kind of feels like that, but on a personality level.Yeah, I was going to say.
48:55I was going to say the big difference is like you, Echo Charles might be in a bad mood, but it's a temporary thing.Right.Whereas opposed to a person that's like a general, broadly speaking, naysayer.Right, right.And an against her is this is a personality trait.So don't be that way.Next, you must go where the action is.For some, it is the sound of the guns.
49:18For others, it is in support of those who go to the sound of the guns.when I was privileged to deliver the Kermit Roosevelt Lecture Series in England, the title of my talk was,your mission is to fight and don't forget it.I repeat it to you without elaboration.One thing I know for sure is the fact that most of my success can be attributed to the fact that I went to the sound of the guns and I was lucky enough to survive.Next, obviously I could go on in the same vein, but I will stop providing you with pearls of wisdom and I will elaborate as,some length on the one piece of advice which I believe will contribute more to making youa better leader and commander will provide you with greater happiness and self-esteem and at the
50:03same time advance your career more than any other advice I can provide you and it doesn'tcall for a special personality and it doesn't call for a certain chemistry any one of you can doit and that advice is you must care the chief of staff of the army in a recent speechsaid it another way you must give a damn let's talk a little bit more about caring you'll findthat at this school and any other service school that you might attend beginning at your basiccourse and winding up at the war college level that you spend about 80% of your time on tacticsstrategy weapons planning writing I'm being very generous here and you spend about 20% of your timeon people matters so what he's saying you go to these schools whether it's basic training
50:50whether it's company career course, whether it's a senior NCO course, all the way up to thewar college.80% of the time is tactics, strategies, weapons, planning, writing, like that's what you're doing.20% of the time, people matters.And he continues, it's an interesting phenomenon and paradox that we go to school after schoolafter school and spend about 80% of our time on tactics, weapons, logistics, and planningand about 20% on people matters.And then we go to our units and what do we do?
51:16We spend about 80% of our time on people matters and 20% of our time.time on tactics, weapons, logistics, et cetera. Just think about it. Your young officers mostly here,majors and lieutenant colonels, but you have all commanded companies. Some hope to commandbattalions. Many have been S3s and execs, and some have commanded smaller ships, and somehave commanded air squadrons. Where does your time go? Just reflect on it. You're dealing withgrievances. You're inspecting barracks. You're inspecting latrines. You're checking mess halls,supply rooms, day rooms. You're worrying about laundry. You're worrying about pay. You're getting newofficers and new non-commissioned officers and new soldiers you're saying goodbye to officers
51:53and new non-commissioned officers you're officiating the promotions of your officers and your non-commissionedofficers you're officiating that at demonstrations of certain non-commissioned officers you're dealingwith the past policy and complaints you're dealing with the wards you're engaging in a greatdeal of correspondence you're visiting the guardhouse you're going to the mess hall on christmas andthanksgiving you're going to the chapel on sunday even if you're not religious you're going therebecause you think you should as a good leader because you do it as an example to your menThose are the things you're really dealing with in command and you must care about your soldiers and your sailors and your airmen.And this is just so true.
52:27It's just so true.Now think to yourself.All of you are saying to yourself right now, well, I care.What's this guy talking about?Well, there are degrees to caring.There are degrees of personal sacrifice to reflect the amount of caring that you do.And there's an attitude that you have to develop in yourself.How do you know if you care?
52:46You're sitting out there wondering, do I care?Do I really care?How do you know if you care?Well, for one thing, if you care, you listen to your junior officers and soldiers.When I say, listen, I don't mean that stilted baloney that so many officers engage in and stand up to an enlisted man and say, how old are you, son?Where are you from?How long have you been here?Thank you very much.
53:05Next man.That's baloney.That's form.That's posed.I can remember when I asked my son, when he was a cadet at West Point, how he liked his regimentalcommander and he paused a while with that clean cut incisiveness with which most midshipmen andcadets evaluate people he said to me he plays the role wow that was damning he plays the role i noticedthis officer later in life and he postured a great deal and he always stood with his knees bent back
53:34and he always turned one toe out he always wore a special little things around his collar and healways turned sideways i knew what he meant when he said heplays the role.I think we all do.I think we all do.Well, I'm not talking about that kind of stuff.I'm talking about listening because a young soldier won't come out and tell you everythingthat is wrong.
53:58He'll be a little hesitant.If you ask him if he's getting along all right, if he just shrugs, he's getting along lousy.If he's not enthusiastic in his response, there's something wrong.And you better dig a little deeper.If you care, you care if you listen to him.I wrote in Leadership Strategy and Tactics.The most underrated skill of leadership is listening.You care if you listen to him, really listen.
54:22You care if you really wonder what he's doing on his off-duty activities.When you're about to tee off on a Saturday afternoon,when you're at the club at happy hour,when you're going home or coming,when you're going or coming home from church on Sunday,if you're wondering if there's this little creeping nagging in the back of your head about,I wonder what the soldiers are doing.I wonder, do you do that?
54:42What are your airmen doing?What are the sailors doing?Where do they go?You care if you go in the mess hall.And I don't mean going with white gloves and rubbed dishes and pots and pans and fine dust.You care if you go into the mess halls and you notice that the scrambled eggs are in a big puddle of waterand that 20 pounds of toast could have been done in advance that had been done in advance is lying there cold and hard.And the bacon is laying there dripping in grease and the cooks all have their work done way ahead of time.
55:10the cold pots of coffee are sitting on the tables getting even colder if that really bothers youif that really gripes you if you want to tear up those cooks you care it's the little thingswhen i was in vietnam a quartermaster captain was bragging to me about the ice cream that theymade at camp evans and were taking out to the soldiers on the fire bases i said that's great he saidsir would you like to see what we're making i said i'd like to see it very much and he went there and theyhad these machines and they were pouring ice cream into these gallon containers. He was very proud.He says, we get it out there every day. I said, that's great. What do you carry it out there in?He said, oh, these containers. I said, yeah, but how do the soldiers eat it? You know, they're all
55:54out there in little dugouts. They're not all lined up in a mess hall. They don't have mess kits outthere and things like that. He said, I don't know, sir. I said, I know how they eat it. Theypass that thing around. They stick their fingers in it and each one grab some.I said, get some Dixie cups and send them.He said, Dixie cups?I said, yeah, Dixie cups.I use these little elementary things because I'm trying to illustrate a point.When you're getting ready for the annual IG inspection and you know that these guys are GIing around the barracks and you know they're working like hell and it's Sunday night, if you get your get out of your warm house and go down to the barracks and wander in to see them work and just sit there on a foot locker.
56:38You don't have to tell them that they're doing a great job.Just sit on the foot locker and talk to one or two soldiers and leave.They'll know that you know that they're working like hell to make you look good.If, as I mentioned earlier on Sundays and holidays, you're concerned, if you take your kids and your wife and you go to the mess hall,if even before that you wander around and see if they're making that place look decent, you care.If you have a fine, uncommonly good-looking non-commissioned officer with muscles rippling down his cheeks and astrong neck and clean as a whistle trim as could be shoulders back the the look of tigers in hiseyes and then he says to you captain don't worry about it I guarantee I'm going to take care of him
57:22if you don't check to see whether he is making these guys do push-ups until they're dizzy andsweating and about to pass out if you don't wonder is this guy getting a little sadistic frompushing these guys around if you don't make it your business to make it known throughout youroutfit that you won't put up with that crap you haveactually has edited out he had crap and he lined through and he put stuff but I'm giving him crap backthen you don't care but if that worries you when you wonder and you go back and you check andyou ask questions and make sure you care if you look out your window before a parade and yousee that the troops are there lined up 15 or 20 or 30 minutes before windy rainy hot
58:07whatever it may be. If it doesn't really boil you to see that, you don't care. But if it does,you care because the only reason, the only reason the soldiers stand around and wait is becausesome dumb jerk officer didn't plan it right or we planned it in such a way that the troops have topay for him not missing a deadline. You care if just before a jump or just before an assaulton a hot landing or just before takeoff from an aircraft carrier or just before a close air supportraid or a close support raid you care if you wander down to where these guys are and you notice thattheir adams apples are bobbing a little you notice that they are a little pale you notice that they areyawning a lot people yawn when they're scared and it really helps scared soldiers and scared lieutenants
58:52and scared captains and majors and commanders and lieutenant commanders and it helps anybody when you'rescared and getting ready to do something more difficult for somebody to come around who is a seniorto you whom you respect and admire to let you know thatHe cares.You've got to seek out these situations wherever it is tough for your men.Be there and understand and be sympathetic and give a pat and it has got to beIt's got to bother you in your belly when you walk down the line and see all these lads waiting and they're sitting under the wing of a plane or they're sitting near a chopper and they're loaded and the sweat is coming down their face and they're really scared and you can smell it in their breath. I can tell you you can smell fear in a man's breath, but you'll notnever know it unless you get close enough to smell it. And if that bothers you and if you try to
59:44help him in that way, you care. I can't make you do this. But you really, you really need to likesoldiers. You need to be amused by their humor. You need to be tolerant of their bodiness. Youneed to understand that they're as lousy as you let them be and as good as you make them be.You just have to really like them and feel good about being with them.When I was commanding the 101st Airborne Division, I used to write a column every week.It was in a paper called The Screaming Eagle.The name of the column was Lucky Eagle Says.I tried to get some message to my soldiers.
01:00:29I tried to get some direct communication to them.My code name was Lucky Eagle.The code name for the fellow before me was Bold Eagle.I figured if I was bold, my soldiers would know it.I didn't have to put it in my code name,so I named myself Lucky Eagle on account of soldiers are superstitious,and soldiers are always scared about something.If they wanted to be associated with anything,
01:00:50they wanted to be associated with luck.This is what I wrote in that column, and I saved it.I said,you cannot expect a soldier to be proud if you humiliate him.You cannot expect him to be,brave if you abuse andcower him. You cannotexpect him to be strong
01:01:13if you break him.Man those are important.Sorry, I just couldn't stop readingfor, what was that, like a seven minute periodor something like that? Because it's all justgood, it's just such powerful stuff.And it's so, he's just given an exampleafter example, after example,
01:01:29of what it means to care for your troops.And not only that, that whole idea of like, you have to likethem.there's a of a distinct separation between officers and enlisted guys in the military it's a thing rightthe enlisted guys call the officers sir the officers get you know better housing the officers getpaid more money the officers are you know they get more responsibility as well but you would seethat sometimes kind of like a class system right where look there'sThere's class systems in every part of the world.
01:02:08And in America, you know, you have certain classes.We have socioeconomic classes, right?And there are definitely people that look at people that are a lower class as a worse human being, right?This person is worse than me.They're dumber than me.They're not as smart as me.They're not as clever as me.They're not as don't have as much money as me.
01:02:30They rack those things up.And you see those people that are like that.They look down on other people.They treat the waiter the waiter like shit.They treat the whatever, the gas station attendant like shit.They think they're better, right?And you would sometimes see people in the military.You know, we would joke about it as enlisted guys when I was an e-dog.
01:02:50You know, we would say, oh, you know, you don't want to come down here and eat with the enlisted swine, right?The enlisted swine.And the enlisted man is not to be trusted.We had all these like little sayings that kind of played into this.And of course, we were joking.But if you don't think there was some people that that had those feelings, you know, you're wrong.So that there is a separation there.But these ideas that I just laid out, if you cannot expect a soldier to be proud,
01:03:21be a proud soldier if you humiliate them.Like think about that with your kids, you know.You cannot expect them to be brave if you abuse and cowardice.Again, think about that with your kids.And think about that with your people you work with, people that work for you.You cannot expect him to be strong if you break him.Now, listen, and we'll get into this a little bit at some point, but does that mean you don't push them?No, absolutely not.
01:03:48Does it mean you just let them do whatever they want?No, absolutely not.Does it mean you never have to discipline them in some way?No, absolutely not.but there's a huge difference between disciplining someone and breaking them.There's a huge difference between disciplining someone and making them cower.There's a huge difference between disciplining someone and humiliating them.So you've got to be careful.
01:04:15You really do have to be careful.Continuing on, you cannot ask for respect and obedience and willingness to assault hot landing zones, hump back, breaking ridges,destroy dug-in emplacements if your soldier has not been treated with the respect and dignitywhich fosters unit a spree and personal pride again what are you doing with your family what are youdoing with your team are you are you building those things up are you treating them with respectare you listening to what they have to say the line between firmness and harshness between strongleadership and bullying between discipline and chicken shit. Now, he didn't have shit on here,but I added it in there because that's, that's a military thing. And it's not as much of a
01:05:05military thing for my generation as it was in like World War II. They would call it chicken shit.So anything, you know, hey, polish the brass on that freaking doorknob.Polish it again, polish it again, polish it again. Oh, I see a fingerprint on there,polished again. That's chicken shit. Like, oh, polish your boots, go, you know,go hike in the go on a go on a patrol come back oh i see your boots aren't polishedpolish them again polish them again polish him again that's chicken shit stuff that's whatthey call in the military chicken shit so he says there's a line between discipline and chickenshit and yes there absolutely is chicken shit is chicken shit is dumb stuff there's no reason for it
01:05:42and he says it's a fine line between firmness and hardship between strong leadership andbullying between discipline and chicken shit it's difficult to find but those of us who areprofessionals and who have also accepted a career as leaders of men must find that line that's whatwe have to do and boy it is a fine line and by the way that line isn't just like permanent you know there'sgoing to be some things with your team you're going to have to impose this much discipline and somethings you better not impose that much discipline you got to figure out this is the dichotomy of leadershipright the dichotomy of leadership is that line it does it's not it's not permanent same thing withyour kids like your there's some kids there's some kids there's some things you're
01:06:25that your son is going to do that you will not have to impose any kind of punishment whatsoeverhe'll already be punishing himself you know and there's some things where they're not going torealize you're going to have to impose some kind of punishment because they'll be like well they won'tunderstand it won't land and you're going to have to figure that out on on kind of a case by casebasis you know look we want to be consistent being consistent is so important as a leader that includesparent being consistent is so important but you got to realizethat there's that consistency also has a little has just got to be some maneuverability in thereflexibility you got to have like kind of some things that just are not going to happen
01:07:05like there's there's a line that's not going to be crossed yeah right and then they got to know whatthat is but then they got to okay how can I maneuver around it here um and it says this so you gotto find that line it is because judgment and concern for people and human relations are involvedin leadership that only men can lead men and not computers.I enjoin you to be ever alert to the pitfalls of too much authority.Beware that you do not fall in the category of the little man with a little job with a bighead.In essence, be considerate, treat your subordinates right, and they will literally die for you.
01:07:57And that's what he wrote in that.that article and we'll close it out with this section here.I wanted all my officers and non-commissioned officers to know I felt that way.Now I want to close by stating that if you care, I guarantee you will have a successful career.I won't guarantee that you'll be a general or an admiral, but I guarantee that you will improve your chances tenfold.So it is in your self-interest.It is in yourselfAnd I'll say this all the time
01:08:30You know all these these recommendations that I give about leadershipA lot you know take the high roadYou know and and peopleYou knowUse the indirect approachThere's all these things where it seems like it's going to take longerAnd it seems like it's going to be hardAnd but I guarantee you in the end
01:08:45You win in the endLike when your team wins you winWhen you accomplish the mission you winIf you claim hey IHey don't I want some gotDon't I get some credit over here for this?Can you get I was the onethat was leading this thing.
01:08:57So minute you raise your hand and do that,you're hurting.You're hurting the way you appear.If you put the team first,you're going to win in the end.If you put the mission first,you're going to win in the end.So it is in your self-interest
01:09:12to care about your people.Even if you do not become a flag officer,you will still be happyin the devotion, love,and affection of your men,and you will like yourself better.And he closeswith this, I sincerely believe that to be a successful leader, in the idealistic sense,
01:09:32you must care. And there you go. General Melvin Zeiss. Take care of your people. And again,take care of your people. Doesn't mean you don't push them. It doesn't mean you don't make thempush themselves.It doesn't mean that you give them a bunch of time off.It doesn't mean that you don't train them hard.No, it doesn't mean any of that.Taking care of your people actually means the opposite.How can you prepare them?
01:10:06How can you get them ready?And you gotta push people.You gotta push people.When you push people, they get stronger.When you push them mentally, they get tougher.Now, do we put, take someone that's never lifted before and put 500 pounds on for back squat?No, we don't do that.Just like we don't berate people when they make a mistake in a leadership situation.
01:10:26Just like we don't throw problems with them that are so hard to solve.that they get crushed.We try and build them up by little micro, what, micro damage, right?Little micro damage.Like what we used to do with our shins from Muay Thai.You know, you keep hitting that, you keep kicking that bag.Your shins get tougher and your nerves start to die.And by the way, yeah, you can get out the little, the roller.
01:10:56Yep.The roller for your shins.You can, yep, the broom handle for your shins.You can kick, you can kick hard stuff.That's what we're doing.That's what we're doing with our people, right?But you don't take a baseball bat and do a full swingwhen you first start training moitai.
01:11:12No, that won't work.You don't even try and kick a baseball bat in halfwhen you first started training moitai.You'll break your shin.But over time, as you put more and more stress on the shin,it becomes tougher and stronger.And eventually it'll break that baseball bat.Same thing with leadership.
01:11:34Same thing with your people.You don't just put stress on them and degrade them and punish them.No.You'll destroy them.You want to build them up.So that's what we're doing.We're taking care of our people.We're taking care of them so they can be their best.
01:11:52And that includes, of course, from a leadership perspective, a mental perspective, a spiritualperspective and of course the um the physical perspective by the way which means we are kind of gettingafter it and guess what when you're getting after it you're going to need fuel you need to fuel yourmission and that's where you have jaco fuel jockofuel dot com we have protein we have energywe have supplementation we have this new creatine man it's good it's creatine plus it's gotit's well one of them is flavored and it's reallygood. Yeah, so check that out. We've got greens. We've got time war. We got products that you need.We got products that you need. And they taste delicious and they're efficacious. And that's what we're doing worldwide.
01:12:43Kind of worldwide. Don't, sorry, Europe and the rest of the world. Because I do get a lot of like, hey, when are you sending this stuff?When can we buy this, you know, wherever we are. Right now, it's primarily America. We do have Ian down there in Australia.get some underscoreA-U.He's out there getting after it.But here in America,go to any store that you might go toand you can get Jocko Fuel,
01:13:05get the clean Jock Fuel.If they don't have it there, just ask them.And we'll get it there.We're working on it.The whole world.Well, again, all of America, I need to say for that.Slowly but surely.But joccofuel.com, check that out.
01:13:20Also, if you need American-made clothing,including Jiu-Gi-Gir.T-shirts, hoodies, rash guards, boots, sneakers, by the way.Sneakers.Sneakers, tennis shoes, and trainers.We have all three.We have sneakers, tennis shoes, and trainers.We have all three.
01:13:39Those are, they're going to sell out quick, but they're 100% American made, which is awesome.So check out origin, USA.com to get 100% communist-free, slave-free hard goods.Is that the right word?I don't know.There's another word I was searching for.Durable goods?Durable goods I was looking for.Oh, durable.
01:14:00Durable goods.There you go.Close.Yeah, same thing.Check out origin USA.com.It's true.Also, jococco story.com.Discipline equals freedom.
01:14:10More, uh, it's not durable goods.I don't know if it's durable or not, but pretty durable as far as t-shirts go.They last long.I'll tell you that.Anyway, discipline equals freedom.Good.Various versions, too, by the way.Discipline equals freedom five versions, five options.
01:14:24See what I'm saying?So you got one?Hey, get the other four or one of the other four.All available jocco store.com.Also, keep in mind, Christmas is coming up.Oh, yeah.Good place to shop for your people, for yourself even.We have gift cards on there too, by the way.
01:14:41Nice.So I'm saying, yeah, so you can kind of save up for the freaking, you know, the time.Excellent.You know, the future stuff.Also, short locker on jocco store.com.So shirt locker, click on the top of the short locker.It's a membership.subscription you get a new design every month
01:14:58if you are wondering what these designs look likeyou can go to that page it'll show you like a littlehint of it just to kind of keep you in the gamelet you know what you're signing up for anyway people seem like it's pretty coolit's all on jocco store.com check that out also we got booksby the way we have warrior way of the warrior kid bookswe've had two of those books on audibleand now we have all five of the way of the warrior could books
01:15:24available on Audible.So if your kid has been wishing for those,the wishes have come true.We have all of the Way of the Warrior Kid booksand Mikey on the Dragons,Mikey and the Dragons all available on Audible.So check those out.And then of course I've written a bunch of books
01:15:40about leadership and then you gotput your legs on by Rob Jones.You got Need to Lead by Dave Burke.So you can get after that.If you enjoyed listening to this talk about leadership today,you can check out echelonfront.com.We have a leadership consultancyand that's what we do.
01:15:52We solve problems through leadership.We can bring you to an event.We can host an event with you or we can embed ourselves inside your organization and we solve problems.Also check out extreme ownership.com if you want to learn the skills of leadership online, you can check that out.And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families.You want to help Gold Star families.You can check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee.She's got an amazing charity organization.
01:16:18If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's Mighty Warriors.org.Also check out Heroes and Horses.org.And then finally, Jimmy May's organization,beyond the brotherhood.org.We also have warriors need.org and stronghold rescue.org.Got a lot of orgs that are out there doing great stuff.So it's important if you can.If you want to connect with us,
01:16:40check out jocco.com.Check out the underground,which is where we answer questions.And then there's social media as well,but I just assume you just stayed off of thatinstead of being on there.It's not going to help you.It's going to actually make you a worse person.
01:16:54And to all of our people out there in uniform right now,standing watch around the world facing complex challenges in a new kind of battlefield,we thank you for protecting us and our freedom.And thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers,correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders.Thanks for what you do to keep us safe and protecting us here on the home front.and everyone else out thereof all these various components of leadership
01:17:25General Zeiss emphasizes one thingmore than anyone else and I think we know what that is.It's care.Care.Take care of yourself.Take care of your family.Take care of your team.Take care of your community.
01:17:38Take care of your country.This is the most important factor.And you know what?Not just for leadership.But as the general also points out,caring is the key to a happy life so take care and that's all we've got for tonight and until next timethis echo and jocco out
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