Judge John Hodgman - Jamaican Patties, Joey Pants, and Jazz

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

Is it ok to add your own items to someone else’s garage sale? Should you try to convince the one Android user in your group chat full of iPhones to make the switch? Does Gen Z need to listen to more jazz? All this and this week as we clear the docket!We’re always looking for disputes - especially from outside the non-nuclear family! Got (friendly) beef with a co-worker? Have an unresolved dispute from a housemate? A running argument within your group of friends? Submit yours here: maximumfun.org/jjho ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I am bailiff, Jesse Thorn. We're in chambers clearing the docket. I have to say, John, it was 107 degrees in Los Angeles yesterday. Yeah. And frankly, I wish that we were recording this from like a dark, cool hole in the ground. Well, Jesse, speaking from a dark cool hole in the ground known as September in Maine, we're having a heat wave here, too.

If you're watching on the YouTube at Judge John Hodgman Pod, you'll see I'm sweating. Sweeting up here in my autumn chambers because it hits 70 degrees. Oh, my glasses are all fogged up. I'm all heated up because it's so hot here in Maine, 70 degrees. How are we going to record this when you have the vapors? It might even go to 71.

But meanwhile, I've got the brand new gavel, and we're going to gavel good. On the docket. Guys, we're going to gavel good. We're not going to gavel bad. We're going to gavel good. Here's something from Aziz light half calorie on R slash maximum fun. I'm so sad that that's a handle.

I thought that was a real name. That is a username on Reddit that reads like when AOL used to randomly give you a name. Yeah. Aziz Light Half Calorie says, When my sister drags me to a garage sale, I like to do something I call a reverse garage sale. Oh no. Oh, no, John.

Oh, yes. Aziz Light Half Calories got to figure it out. I sneak a few small, like new items for my own home into the merchandise. True, you do. I even pre-label with price tags and everything. The garage sale organizers get the money. I get some stuff out of my house. I consider that a win-win.

But my sister hates it when I do this. I don't see the harm. Please rule that I'm allowed to reverse garage sale. Aziz light half calorie, you've done it. Again, I presume, because I can't imagine this is the first time you've done it. I've got a feeling on this, but before we get into it,

Jesse, you hit any good garage sales lately? I'm having a garage sale on Saturday, John. It will have passed by the time this episode is released. Yeah. But on Saturday, I'm having my first garage sale in many years. I've, you know, I go out and sell at the flea market every once in a while, and I have my own store at put this onshop.com. So I do have like an out valve on my home.

You know what I mean? I don't need a garage sale in order to clear things out. No. I'm moving. Right. So I needed a way to thin the sporting goods before I try and take things to Goodwill or whatever. Now, Jesse, by now you mentioned that this garage sale is over.

So everything's gone. Even the stuff that I presume Elliot Kalin came by and dropped reverse garage sailed into your garage sale. He brought some of the worms he raises in his garage. Yeah, brought some of those worms, brought a vermiform compost boom, put a little price tag on it, 50 cents or free. What's the thing that's going away in your garage sale that you feel most two ways about? Like maybe you wish you had kept it. I'm going to sell my bed. Whoa.

Okay. I've decided that. my bed does not suit my new home. I'm moving to Berkeley, California, incidentally. Nothing will change on the program. Go ahead and docks yourself. I want to emphasize nothing will change on the program, just moving to be closer to family.

My mom's 82, et cetera, et cetera. I've decided that this bed is too Victorian. It is appropriately Victorian for my Victorian home. It is excessively Victorian for the 1980 home that I have purchased in Berkeley, California. And so because every single thing that we have, that we're bringing the 350 miles from Los Angeles to Berkeley is a big production,

I figured if there's a big thing and it's not right, we're leaving it behind. So either it's selling at that garage sale or I'm going to post it to probably to Craig's list. Shout out to Judge John Hodgman listener, Craig from Craig's list. one of the good ones I'll post it I'll post it free on Craigslist

if it doesn't sell at the garage sale don't tell the shoppers at the garage sale using your time machine judge John Hodgman listeners so I'd love to get 200 bucks out of it but you know I just decided it's not worth disassembling reassembling and having it look bad

in my new bedroom so I'm just gonna I'm gonna go on Craigslist I'm gonna get myself somebody else's you know, those kind of metal bed frames that are just some, just some legs for your bed and nothing else. Yeah. That costs like 60 bucks on,

on e-commerce website. Just going to go buy one of those for 40 bucks from somebody on Craig's list, put my bed on that, and then wait for a beautiful bed to come along when I'm in the Bay Area. For the 1980s house in the East Bay, what you want to do is go back in time to when young John Hodgwick. is working in the stockroom at Conrans on Newbury Street in Boston.

You ever mess with Conrans? Does that mean anything to you? I don't know what Conran's is. Oh, Terrence Conran was sort of the British dean of 80's interior design. Oh, all right. Yeah. I went to, I think I went to a Conran. Love a lacquer.

I think I went to a Conran show at the Design Museum in London one time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You probably did. I went to some garage sales up here in Maine. and it's been a bust lately. I think all the good stuff is gone. Really? Someone tried to sell my wife,

who's a whole human being in her own right, a Ziploc bag full of candle stumps for five bucks. And would not accept a check. No Venmo, cash only, no sale. But then we went to another one on a different area of that island. And we found, it was pretty good.

We found some acupressure socks. Oh, all right. That map on your foot where all of the pressure points for your vital organs are. Liver, spleen, certain area marked gonad. Pretty good. Yeah. Didn't buy that, took a picture. And a bunch of ties.

I should have bought you all these ties, Jesse Dorn. Because there were a label that said, these ties were sent to me by the actor Joe Pantoliano. Joey Pants? Joey Pants sent ties. And it also said some of them were worn on the Sopranos. So I said to the one, what's going on? Is this for real?

I said, yeah, I used to run a vintage shop. And a friend of a friend knew Joey Pants. And when he found out I was selling things, he goes, yeah, I got to get rid of some ties. I'm going to send you some. I have 700. So it's about 50 Joey Pants ties. So I got a bow tie for Paul F. Tompkins.

A Joey Pants bow tie. And Paul said, who wants ties from a man named Pants? I'm like, you got so burned by PFT. You PFTed me again. But speaking of doing it again, let's get back to Aziz light half calorie. Jesse Land. ask you, if a Z's light half calorie came by your garage sale and started leaving old

mocha pots and precious moments, half, half-folders cans full of nickels, whatever it is, on your garage sale tables, how would you feel about that? Terrible. Do you feel about it? Yeah, terrible. The purpose of a garage sale, the making money is almost invariably incidental to a garage sale. I mean, like, if you walk away, from a garage sale with $200, that's fantastic. Like, I'm not poo-pooing that you might walk away from your garage sale with $200. Right. Ideally, you do.

And occasionally, somebody has like some kind of garage sale where, like my mom, who's an antique dealer, she'll have a garage sale and sometimes she makes $2,000 and she needs it to pay her rent. You know what I mean? Right, right. That's a different category of garage sale. I think almost all garage sales, 85% of garage sales, the goal is to distribute the items to people who want to need them because you don't want to need them so that you have less stuff to carry to the donation bin at the thrift store where you know that they throw away most of the stuff and it actually causes more problems than it helps in the environment. Yeah, listen, Aziz light half calorie. I'm with Jesse.

I'm not poo-pooing in the concept. It's funny. I'll give it that. But garage sales, they're about purging. They're about purging more than they are about earning. It's about moving on with your life and getting rid of stuff. And sometimes it's painful to let go of certain things. And then after you let them go, you feel so good.

But the last thing you need at a garage sale is somebody else's poo-poo. Yours. I don't need to purge your stuff, Aziz Light Half Calorie, as much as I like your name. Leave that stuff at home. We don't need your art project. We don't need your performance art. Just let this person purge. It's a funny idea.

I like it. It's funny. It made me laugh. Does that help? Tell you what, I'm going to good gavel on you. No way. All right. Something from Danger Razor on R slash Maximum Fund.

Now, that's definitely their given name. You know, my Reddit username's Jesse Thorne. It's a similar situation with Danger Razor. Yeah. I presume they're twins and their mom and dads or whatever named them similar names, Danger Razor and Safety Razor. That has to be. That has to be.

I thought you were suggesting they were twins and one was named Danger and one was named Razor and they were sharing a Reddit account. Like when email was new and I shared an email address with my mom. Oh, my gosh. J.J.thorne at Serious.net. I think my friends Josh and Nikki in Seattle still share an email address. That rules. Josh and Nikki or Eli and Zach, their sons, if any of you're listening, confirm or deny that.

I think if I shared an email address with my beautiful wife, Teresa, she would die of anxiety because of the sheer volume of emails that I receive and ignore. Danger razor. What do you got to say? My older brother is the only member of our family, with an Android device. It's ruining our group chat. We can't edit messages or fix typos. Media gets compressed all to heck,

and we can't add anyone to the chat without starting a whole new group. Judge John Hodgman, order my brother to get an iPhone. This happens at maximum fun with my colleague Richard Roby on Bullseye. Because he runs an Android? He's the one with an Android phone,

and it ruins all the group chats. Yeah, you know, I've got a group chat going with some very dear friends. We used to play the game of poker for many years, and we still get together and do it. But every time we try to reorganize poker game, I get so mad because it all turns green. Because I'm not sure who's got the Android. It's either Joe or Darren. Frankly, they both fit the profile of guys who just aren't going to get with the picture. Because they're contrarian, you know.

and I know that the Android users are going to come at me. But don't text me, okay? I don't want to see your green texts. You can send me emails. I'm sure it's great. I'm sure it's great. I mean, Jesse, talk about Contrarian. How long did it take you to get off the Zoom or whatever?

Microsoft Zoom? Yeah. Yeah, I probably had a solid five years of, I had a Windows phone too. That's what I thought. That's what I was trying to remember. Your Windows phone. I had a Zoom. I had a Windows phone.

I liked the Windows phone. And I will say this. Yeah. I think I've mentioned this on the program before. I know you're a former spokesperson for Apple computers, John. I like to say once in future, because hope springs eternal. I, uh... I mean, honestly, honestly, goes to Steve Jobs.

A couple of things I want to say to you. First of all, listen to all the free advertising I'm giving to the iPhone. Second of all, get back here. Come on. Come on, goes to Steve Jobs. jobs. You wouldn't have renamed Lake Ontario, Lake America. Come on. You wouldn't have stood for that, would you? Would you? Anyway, Apple, I'm in wardrobe. Go ahead, Jesse. What? It is now 32 years since I went to Rich Kid Middle School at the Nueva Learning Center in Hillsborough, California.

Yeah. I look. I had a scholarship. I was not one of the rich kids, right? No, no, no, no. And all of Nueva and all the rich kids had Apple computers. In fact, some of the kids had next computers. And I have never been able to shake the deep-seated feeling that Apple products are for rich kids. A lot of people feel that way and understandably. That resentment has.

lived with me for decades. Okay? And this group chat and messaging issue is truly one of the last vestiges of that sick Apple arrogance where they are essentially taunting everyone else. Like where they are saying,

like when I have an iPhone. And I like the product. I've had an iPhone for a long time. I've always enjoyed using the product. Yeah. But when I can't schedule a message to an Android user because they don't have an iPhone, as though my phone couldn't in and of itself wait until 9 a.m. the next day to send the message, as though it requires an interchange to delay the sending of something.

Yeah. It makes me want to punch a hole in the wall and go back and get my CGA monitor, IBM PCXT that my mom bought used at a computer show with her friend Sam Sternberg so that I could have a computer. It galls me. I think that computer that she got you was actually just a shoebox full of mice, right? and a teasing up I just

I just want to say that I have a deep sympathy for this Android user because this is a function of Apple's arrogance and distaste for others that said

I do think for this Android Android user's own sake they should just get an iPhone get to iPhone phones ago, that won't be expensive. It'll work great. Look, I get it. Look, I'm sorry that your brother uses an Android. This is why I'm an only child. I never wanted to put up with this. But I also understand the contrarian impulse.

I know that Apple products have a, they have cultivated a culture around them that some people dislike, fair. I know it probably works fine for what you need to do, Danger Razors brother. Oh, this is Danger Rangers' brother. This is a safety razor. Safety Razor, I know it probably works really well for you. And I get it. I was a contrarian, too. I wasn't an Atari guy.

I was a Kleecovision kid. Intellivision was too mainstream for me. I had a Genesis. It does what Nintendo don't. Yeah, exactly. I never went it so far as to get a beta max, but I understood the impulse. This other technology works better.

why are you shoving this other thing down our throat? Whatever. Certainly I heard from plenty of people when I was doing ads for Apple about how PCs are more democratic somehow, because you can open them up, not void the, I get it. That's cool. It works for you. It works for everybody. But yeah, you're going to be, you're making, you're taking a stand. You're taking a stand and you're turning that chat green. And what you hope is that your brother will be green with envy. But instead, he's merely green with nausea and anger and frustration.

I can't order your brother to get an iPhone. That's up to your brother. But I will offer, I think that Jesse does have a good solution, which may entrap. I was going to say in trap. Let's say entice safety razor into switching over to an iPhone, which is exactly like, go back a couple of generations. They're all the same. They've been the same for like 12 years. They're all the same.

And if you go on any Reddit board, anytime they're going to say, anytime they introduce a new one, they're going to be contrarians. They're going like, oh, why did they ruin it? The 12 was the best or the 13. People love that 13 mini.

They always love the older generations. Get a vintage iPhone. Because then you get that vintage cred, but you also get to be a, a full member of your family. They're not going to be annoyed by you all the time. Is that what you want? Go get a vintage iPhone.

That's what I say. But that's only a suggestion. I can't order it. John, you say Danger Razor's brother is called Safety Razor. Yeah. I say he's called Motorola Razor. Wow. That was, yeah.

Let's take a break. We'll be back in just a second with more docket clearing on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're clearing the docket here, and here's a case from Carl in Warwick, Rhode Island. Yeah. The last time I went shopping, says Carl, my wife asked me to buy her Jamaican patties. Ooh. The store had two options, beefy cheese or spicy.

I know two very important things about my wife. Number one, she loves cheese. Number two, she does not like spicy food. So naturally, I bought the beefy cheese ones. You can imagine my surprise when she told me I had purchased the wrong patties. She said she only likes the spicy ones. So I went back to the store and when I got home, I was even more shocked. She cut the spicy patties open and stuffed them with cheese.

I know that people like what they like, but please order my wife to admit that I was right to assume she was. would prefer cheese to spice. And please make her stop laughing at me about this whole thing. I think we found the crux. Yeah, I don't know if I can make any promises on that last part. So, I mean, there may be listeners or viewers on the YouTube that don't know what a Jamaican beef patty is. It's really delicious, highly minced beef, typically, though they do it with jerk chicken, too, and vegetarian ones as well.

but classically, it's beef, highly spiced, and then stuffed into a very delicious, probably very lardy, flaky, yellow pastry. And in New York City, you can get them, well, you can get them all over the place, you can get them at a golden crust, you can get them at Royal Caribbean Bakery. I did a little research, I believe,

this brand Caribbean Food Delights, is the frozen food branch of Royal Caribbean Bakery, which was founded in 1980 by Jamaican American Vincent Hosang, a legendary entrepreneur in the beef patty world. And they're delicious. And you can also get them at pizza places. And when you order them at a classic New York slice shop, you can invite them to open up the patty

and toss a little mozzarella on that, on that Mickey Ricky. That's how they dubbed in another word and do the right thing. Did you know that? No. When Radio Rahim tells Sal, at Sal's pizza, two slices and put some extra cheese on that. If you watch the TV edit it, he says,

put some extra cheese on that Mickey Ricky. Just something for you know. Anyway, you've got a little extra cheese on that Mickey Ricky, and it's delicious. So I'm just going to say that Carl and Warwick Rhode Island's wife, who's a whole human being in her own right, even if he didn't seem fit to name her. It's doing nothing wrong.

No crimes committed in Rhode Island, which is a rare enough thing to say. Historically very corrupt government. No crimes committed in this case. She opened up that beef patty. She modded it out the way it is traditionally done, and it is God or whatever damn delicious to do it. But that said, Jesse,

is Carl supposed to be a mind reader? Why didn't she just tell him what kind of beef patty she wanted? Spicy, not beefy cheesy. Right? Now you got me all hungry because they got this restaurant around the corner from the office called Paddies and Tings. Hell yeah. And like L.A., there's not very many Jamaicans in L.A., certainly not relative to New York where there's tons of Jamaicans. And so patties are not freely available in L.A.

You know, there's like four places in all of Los Angeles where you can get Jamaican Pets. patties. And right around the corner, they got this, they got this patty place. And it's run by this guy who's Jamaican Australian. Yeah. He's a Jamaican guy with an Australian accent. It's tremendous. It's a little tiny place and it just smells like curry and marijuana.

And there's just this mega blazed Australian guy there. And not only do they have patties, they also got Australians. stuff. I don't know if it's the same wholesale distributor, but they got beef pies and stuff. And then, what's an Australian beef pie? How's that different? That's a little hand pie that you would bring, like, let's say if you worked in a mine in Australia, you'd wrap it up in a cloth and bring it down, you know, in a little steamer tray or whatever. Right. Right. And then, besides the, besides the patties and the pies, they also got desserts there. you can get a little crumble, but more than that, you can get a bean pie there.

And I haven't seen the bean pie man. And this is, you know, granted, northeast Los Angeles where I live is not the center of nation of Islam culture in Los Angeles. However, there used to be a bean pie guy that I would see every once in a while in Pasadena, where I think there must be a mosque. and I would get bean pies, which is like a classic thing that Elijah Muhammad used to push because it's vegetarian protein in dessert form. And so I go out there, I get patties, I get beef pies, I get mushroom pies, I get chicken

patties, and I get bean pies for dessert. I love it. Living it up. Sometimes they even got banana pudding, which is one of my top five desserts. Yeah, you know where it's surprisingly hard to find a job. Jamaican beef patty? Where? Coastal Maine.

Now, I take it back. They're actually behind the gas station on Mount Desert Island where the road splits between the road to Southwest Harbor and the road to Bar Harbor. There's actually a great Jamaican food stand there. Amazing jerk chicken.

I don't know if they do beef patties. And there are a couple of, there's also a Jamaican place in Ellsworth. So I take it back because I want to go eat some of this stuff now. I did do some research. Haniford doesn't carry it, but now I bet I could probably go to one of those places and get some. But I mean, real talk, like, Jamaican patties are kind of a different category of food from Jamaican restaurant food.

Yeah. In a Jamaican restaurant, they're serving you proper meals, you know, like plates of food. This is incredible stuff. Acci and rice, jerk chicken, ox tail. But delicious. The patties are coming frozen from a wholesale distribution. Yeah. And it's a convenience food.

As you said, it's like a thing you can buy at a pizza restaurant in New York. Yeah. And that is also a great category of food because there are so few convenience foods like that, that, you know, it's like a gas station hot dog type food that are not sad and gross. And no shade to gas station hot dogs. know how you feel about a Coney Island red hot or whatever they're called. A Maine Red Snapper. Uh-huh.

A.k.a. a Lewiston lobster. So I'm just saying, like, you got a patty place by you. You're living, you're living good. Sorry, Jesse. I got distracted there because I was just signing into the Reddit so I could post this. Hey, everybody, on most recent episode of Judge John Hodgman, Jesse Thorne, complains minimum wage too high. It's any. All right.

100 comments. Here is something. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I just want to say this. Last thing to my friend in Rhode Island, your wife shouldn't laugh at you. This was an honest mistake and a reasonable mistake. You were not given the information you needed to make her happy.

And don't laugh at him. He did his best. All right. Here's something from No Man's Is an Island on R-Slas maximum fun. Right. My friend and I have a dispute about competition. He would rather his team go to the final. and lose.

I would rather my team go to the third place game and win. Okay. So this is something that they do. They don't do this in all sports, but I know that in soccer, European football, they do this. When there's a tournament, the final two teams,

the top two teams from the brackets, pair off and play for the championship, and then the third and fourth team pair. off and play for third place. Okay. Got it. If I don't come in first, says no man's is an island, I'd want my final memory to be a victory, not a soul-crushing defeat.

What is the better outcome? He'd rather lose in third place than, no, excuse me, rather win in third place than lose in first. Yeah. Okay. Um, sure. I mean, I'm working very hard right now to get over one of my few superstitions. One superstition is that I don't toast with water.

That's supposed to be bad luck. Another superstition that's been with me since I was a little kid is, got to leave the bathroom before the toilet stops flushing or else I'm going to be possessed by the devil. That's pretty well documented. And then the third one, oh, yeah, I've become convinced that if I watch a sports game, either in person or even on TV, the team I'm rooting for will lose because that is consistently what has happened my entire life. And that is debilitating. Most superstitions are because I'm denying myself pleasure, the pleasure of watching sports, a pleasure I believe in. And I'm also, as with all superstitions, giving too much importance to myself when the real scary thing is that the universe is huge, chaotic, and does not care about you at all.

This is not exactly what no man's as an island is talking about, but I'm talking about it because I'm going to be going out, you know, to visit speaking in the Bay Area. our daughter, who's a holy meaning in her own right, is now living out there, writing for the San Francisco Chronicle. And she has become, I'm very happy she's been a, she's a big San Francisco Giants fan. And more recently has become a big Oakland ballers fan. Remember our friends who are heartbroken on a podcast because the Oakland days were moving to Las Vegas. Yeah. And it was a terrible crime against baseball and humanity. and it probably happened because I toasted someone with water once in a bathroom where the toilet was flushing.

That's probably why it happened. Most likely. It's probably my fault. But now Oakland has and has had for a little bit a really fun minor league team called the Ballers. And they've got a wonderful mascot who's a trash possum named Scrappy, I think. Scrapper? You know what? Send me letters if I'm wrong. I don't care. I'm not going to look it up now.

I wish. Oh. Oh boy, oh boy. That is what Scrapple is made of. It's not made of possum meat, Jesse. It's made of human-sized possums. It's not bad either. Hang on, I'm getting a message.

It is Scrappy the Rally Possum. Got it. Cool possum wears a clichéds. Point is, I'm trying to get over myself so that I can enjoy a baseball game with my daughter, whole human being in her own right, and go to a baller's game, and go to a Giants game

or go to whatever game she wants me to go to. Trying to get over my superstition so that I can enjoy it. And remember, I'm not at the center of this. You know who's feeling really bad when they lose a game? Your team.

Yeah. Your team is feeling bad. They're not just watching it. They're doing it. And their careers may depend on that game. And even if it's not their careers, It's a real bummer to lose a game.

If you love playing, you don't want to lose. You can't just love to win. You've got to hate to lose. That's what Shorzie says on my favorite sports TV show, Shorzie. Oh, Jesse Thorne. Just finished season three. Crying again. Why does this show make me cry?

Everybody watch Shorzie. Anyway, look, I understand. It's not that you feel like you're dooming. your team. No man's is an island. But I think that, I mean, just enjoy sports whatever way you want. But I think you ought to be rooting for them to go all the way. Don't be satisfied. Don't be satisfied with that third place. You know? Don't even know if that's a ruling, but I'm going to slam down this good gavel. Let's take a break. I got to invite Hodgman's daughter to go to a Giants game with me since I'm moving back to the best.

Bay. Yeah. We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a break from clearing the docket. You up to anything? Well, Jesse, now that David Reese and I are working on our secret project, I know we've talked about it for a while, but it's really happening. Secret project happening. News to come, I hope, soon. In the meantime, won't you check out our not-so-secret project, Dicktown? It's available right over there on Hulu. Just watch it. It rules. Just watch. It's not a big lift. Every episode's about 11 minutes long. and they're only 20 of them. Bang them out one day and then you're just going to watch them again and again.

Maybe put them online, pirate them. I can't approve that. I also want to say a special thank you once again to our friends at Offerman Woodshop, Maddie Diane, and of course Nick Offerman for crafting this incredible new gavel that I'm so proud to be using. Feels so good in my hands. I can't wait to see you again in person, Jesse, and let you handle my gavel. That came out a little bit wrong, but you know what I mean. Jesse, what's going on in your life these days?

We, of course, are selling all the holiday gifts you need to put this on shop.com. Beyond that, John? Yeah. Absolute murderous lineup on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, my Arts and Culture interview show on National Public Radio. Can I tell you who has been on recently and is about to be on very soon? I hope you will. First of all, one of the greatest conversations I've ever had on the show with one of the greatest African pop music. who has ever lived Angelica Jo, who is,

if you don't know who she is, don't feel bad about it. She's an absolute legend of African music, but also just one of the most charismatic and delightful human beings I've ever talked. Like 12 out of 10 charisma, incredible story, incredible insights into the world. You can just see why she is a legend. And then Bob Mould from Sugar and Husker Doe

and the Bob Mould band. One of the most decent, brilliant guys in the history of alternative rock and roll music. You know, I don't know at this point in the episode, whether we have or will be talking about seeing musicians live, but I got to see Bob Mould in a room. And I didn't know that I needed that circuit to be complete in my life. It was, he's an incredible performer. And as you say, a real inspiration. And an incredible man as well, just like a really, really. beautiful-hearted man. Speaking of beautiful-hearted

people, also on Bullseye, the great Maria Bamford. Come on. There's a beautiful documentary about Maria, and she is the greatest stand-up comedian in the world, and one of the greatest guests in the world. Greg Proops is going to be on the show. Oh, yeah, Proops.

And in addition to our Halloween special and a conversation with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in a conversation with the former meta-world piece, now Meta Sanford Artest. In a couple of weeks, John, Yeah. We will have a show a week with two of the greatest singer-songwriters in the world.

First of all, the great Mary Gosey. Yeah. The person that, like, if you ask a singer-songwriter, who's the greatest singer-songwriter? They'll say Mary Gosey. And an incredible conversation plus live performance featuring never before heard performed by this artist's song. John Darniel of the Mountain Goes. Whoa! An incredible conversation with JD,

plus he performed three songs for us, one of which is the song that he sings to his kid when his kid goes to bed. That's incredible. All on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, go hit that subscribe button. Some of those are already available.

Some of them are in the upcoming weeks. Hit the subscribe button on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne. It's a show I'm very proud of. You can follow it on YouTube as well. We got video of all these things. on YouTube, follow it on social media. We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast and our docket clearing. Here is a case from putting appropriate 67. Oh. I think we've heard from putting appropriates one through 66, but this is the first time we've heard from.

Okay. Yeah. I am in my late 30s, and I have a coworker in his early 20s. This co-worker cannot stand, modern art, jazz that is, quote, more out there, unquote, or any media that he finds, quote, challenging, unquote. I feel like I have a duty to try and expand his horizons. I'll put on Farrow Sanders in the car or steer him toward art galleries.

I worry that the internet has required Gen Z's brains to reject anything that is not immediately pleasurable. Is this a hopeless endeavor? I'm not going to say that it's hopeless because of my own lived experience. Jesse, you weren't around when we had summertime, fun time guest bailiff, Monty, on and I revealed the news.

Everyone knows I'm watching the sports show Shoresy I love it so much. Canadian sports show. Got hockey, obviously. Go watch it. I get no money for that. But do you know I'm watching another sports show right now? What's that?

I'm watching Friday Night Lights. Oh, yeah. 13 years ago, Jesse, my wife was a whole human being in her own right, came to me and said, I would like you to watch Friday Night Lights. It's a really good show. I'm like, ah, she goes,

I know it's about sports, but it's not about sports. I'm like, I wasn't even going to say that. Like, yeah, maybe I'll watch. I'm not thrilled to watch it. And we made a deal. I said, I would watch the whole first season of Friday Night Lights if my wife, all human being, et cetera,

would read only the very first book in the Game of Thrones series, a Game of Thrones. And she read 50 pages. She said, hell no, not for me. So I never watched Friday Night Lights. Talked about it on the podcast before. People who heard that episode certainly know what happened. Next, she found a copy of a Game of Thrones this very summer.

It's like, maybe I'll give it a try. 13 years later, started reading it. Loves it. I was so happy. So happy because she enjoyed it and so happy that I could finally make good on the deal. And so we've been watching Friday Night Lights together. And guess what? Love it.

I'll tell you something else. It's the summer of Kyle Chandler. Because dudes on lanterns, which is also killing it. He's so good on lanterns. so good on lanterns. The whole shows. The whole shows so much. Yeah.

Compelling. Harsh, good, bad. I mean, you know, not great actor playing both moments of being good and moments of being less good. Two actors who are incredible. Two characters who are really complex, really great. But also, Friday Night Lights, amazing. Second season I hear goes way off the rails, but maybe I'll get there.

I'm enjoying it. Yeah, real talk. Friday Nightly is definitely one of those shows where they planned everything out. Yeah. They did an amazing job. Every actor is perfect. It's a wonderful show. Then they realized that they had planned everything out and they were done with the part that they had planned out.

And they're like, all right, let's just have crazy stuff happen for a while. I think I've heard that the writer's strike of 2007 played a role in that. But I don't know. You're saying that Letterman was just improvising all his lines in season two of Friday Night Lights. Yeah, that's right. Point is, putting appropriate, 67, it's possible that your dream could come true. Settled law on Judge John Hodgman has always been people like what they like. And, you know, be wary of trying to force culture onto people because they like what they like.

But it's not impossible. I'm living proof. The dream could come true. Now, Jesse, you listen to a lot of cool music and out there jazz. Right? I do. This guy's trying to get this guy into Farrow Sanders. Is that the best place to start or is that too mainstream?

Should he be going like Anthony Braxton with graphic scores or like? I do feel like in the world of things that are out there and in the world of jazz that's out there specifically, Pharaoh Sanders is actually really accessible. Yeah. Like there's plenty of free jazz. that is abrasive and difficult to listen to, and I am not that into that stuff. Like super improvisatory jazz music

is not necessarily my jam. But spiritual jazz, the kind of category, the broad category that Pharaoh Sanders, in which Farrow Sanders lies, he's very melodic. Like, it is songs. Right.

In the traditional, you know, the same way that a madrigal is a song or whatever. It is mesmerizing and beautiful. And those are qualities that are out there for jazz music that's often beautiful in a very different way. So it is very different from other jazz music and a lot of other music in the world. But it is very listenable. It's not harsh or abrasive or unpleasant in any way. So I don't think that is if it is appropriate to play something to force your co-worker to listen to something to something because you have a project for them.

That is not a bad place to start. I mean, in the same way that if you wanted to introduce someone to contemporary classical music, you know, there are lots of Steve Reich pieces. You know, you play music for 18 musicians for them. Right. And like, I don't know a ton about contemporary classical music, but I can sit and listen to music for 18 musicians, which was introduced to me by Nico Muley once on Bullseye long ago. And I can appreciate it even as a person who's not super into the context,

who doesn't know all of the context, because it's beautiful and mesmerizing and melodic in ways that are very accessible, even though it is pretty out there aesthetically. Yeah, I mean, it's not Ornett Coleman, although Ornick Coleman's really cool. Yeah, you know, I'm going to listen to some Farrow Sanders. Guess what? Putting Appropriate 67, I haven't listened to Farrow Sanders in a long time, not since I was a DJ on WMFO back in Ford, years ago.

Tuft University Radio, they gave me a show when I was a high schooler because I was a weirdo. I'm going to get back into it. So putting Appropriate 67, congratulations, you turned one 55-year-old white dad onto weird jazz. Not exactly what you were going for. But what you're going for, maybe you shouldn't be going for. I mean, share what you love, but also let the kids be. You worry that the internet has ruined things for this younger generation.

In fact, it is ruined things for my mom. Yeah. It's ruined things for everybody. And it's not just the internet who has ruined things for everybody. It's you, not you, Jesse. It's you and me and Jesse and really me. People of our generation, your generation and older, my Gen X generation in particular, who heralded that internet so hard.

We thought it was going to solve all these problems. I mean, it certainly democratized a lot of culture, to be sure. But like, we thought social media was going to be this new utopia of communication, only to watch it become this rhetorical recruiting bootcamp for transphobes and racists and men's rights creeps. And, you know, don't just look to me. Look to your aunt who's gone deep into MAGA on Facebook. Or look to your brother who lost his family to online conspiracy theories and now considers a hallucinatory chat GPT to be his only friend because it's telling him that everyone's out to get him. True story.

not my brother. Look to your own company. Is this kid that your younger employee is going to have a job in five months? Or is some middle manager going to huff some AI farts and fire him and replace him with the clawed or whatever? The internet did not ruin these kids, right? We did. We have an older generation. Maybe not you.

You're younger 30s. I get it. You're effed too. But a lot of the older people who are saying the internet is ruining these kids. We did it. Look at everything that's going on around us. We didn't stand in the way. We didn't, we lost nobly when we should have won over and over and over again.

And getting this kid to listen to Cecil Taylor or whatever, it's not going to get ice off the streets. Giving this kid election on the self-mutilation performance art of Chris Burden or the John Giorno Poetry Project isn't going to make a single person in this country feel safer right now. And to be clear, John Jerno Poetry Project, isn't going to make a single person in this country feel safer right now. And to be clear, John Jonah Poetry Project, Chris Burden, all these artists, Cecil Taylor, they're great. People should enjoy this stuff. They should explore it.

I mean, when I found all this stuff at WMFO and listened to it, I mean, it broke, when I listened to Eric Dolphy for the first time, broke my brain apart and put it back together again in a different and better way. I'm not saying that. But that LP library at WMFO is gone. and while dropping all these cool avant-garde artists and musicians' names from the past may make me feel smart and full of cred. The same time, kind of makes me look like a self-satisfied byhole who confuses from time to time obscure cultural references with actual culture. Is this kid comforting himself with easy media? What's he doing? Scrolling or whatever?

Yeah, good. Maybe so. Maybe he deserves it because there isn't a lot of comfort out there. not a lot of comfort out there for him to feel comforted by I don't think he probably needs to feel challenged given that he is in his early 20s

right now in history but I bet it's not just comforting I bet that there's stuff that he's listening to and seeing and laughing at and thinking about that is actually pretty interesting even if it's in a media that you don't exactly understand or feel

initially some some respect for I didn't know that these sports TV shows were going to change my life. But thanks to, you know, heated rivalry, Shorzy, Friday Night Lights, I mean, that's great. Maybe you should spend a little more time taking his recommendations and put a little less effort into trying to program his brain with your recommendations. You know, criss-cross, share.

Or, you know, just let people like what they like. But I think it's going to be okay if this kid never gets. gets into Svara Sanders, but you're not wrong to continue to recommend stuff that you like. Your friends, I hope. Here's a case from Craig in Edmonton. My friend and I disagree on whether to buy tickets and go see bands from our youth when they're touring now in the twilight of their careers. My friend says every generation thinks the music from their youth is the best.

If we're still listening, why not go to the concert? But I believe nostalgia is a toxic impulse. I want to ban attending concerts of bands from our youth unless they have new music to perform. If nostalgia is absolutely necessary, then it should only be satisfied with tribute bands. I wonder, John, do you feel that coded into this message, that subtextual in this message is that we are talking about

like arena acts Shawana nah nah oh no what they were talking about like arena stadium you know we're talking about the who or Depeche mode or whatever well first of all I just want to say but Jennifer Marmary let me know that some of the acts that Craig

identified as nostalgia acts oasis heart Billy Joel kiss guns and roses many more I think that some of those are

controversial. I mean, Oasis is those two brothers who hate each other, right? Yeah, and our jerks, I think. Yeah, but people who love Oasis, it's not as though Oasis is like playing the North Shore Music Circus with only one of the brothers and a robot or something. You know what I mean? Like, not one of these bands that fell apart and now they're touring with the second lead singer and the ninth guitarist and a bunch of other guys.

Billy Joel, look, you don't have to like Billy Joel, but that's a guy who, just never stopped. That's not a nostalgia. I mean, this thing has been a long time since he's written a new song, but he's still a force. Kiss,

whatever. Is there a nostalgia act that you would go see no matter how how much you anticipated it not being great and actually maybe being disappointed? Well, I mean,

I think first and foremost, but veteran musicians deserve to earn a living. And the only way to earn a living in music these days is touring. Yeah, good point. Like there, you know, maybe if you wrote a hit song when hit songs are still a thing, you're making some money from the songwriting royalties. Maybe in some cases you have some songs that you can license for commercials or something.

But for the most part, people are not making money off their recordings. they're really only making money off of touring. And plenty of the acts that I have nostalgia for. And I mean, I'm 45. So these are, you know, my nostalgia acts are acts from the late 90s, early 2000s. Mm-hmm. Plenty of those acts. Rex and effect.

Is that one of your bands? It's mostly, it's mostly Rex and effect, DOS FX. Oh, come on. I'd go to see DOS FX. Are you kidding me? They're great. Bum, stick-ty-bum, stick-ty-bum. I'd be there in a second.

What I'm trying to say, John, is that these are working musicians who are probably great at performing. I mean, one of the first musicians that I ever loved as a fully independent thinker is Michelle and Dege Ocello, whose first album was given to me

by a cool lesbian family friend and I absolutely adored it. I was like 12 maybe. And my wife and I are going to see Michelle in Berkeley in about a month. And I'm so thrilled. We're good to see her at a small folk club, the Freight and Salvage in Berkeley. And she's been making incredible music lately.

Yeah. She's never stopped making incredible music, but she's made some really amazing stuff lately. and I'm so excited in looking forward to it. And I know that Michelle, despite the fact that she, like, won her first Grammy recently, is, you know, I'm sure she's making most of her living from touring still. Even though she's, like, in-demand session player and producer and, you know, has her own successful records, at least on the scale of, you know, albums that are coming out on Blue Note. But, like, I'm sure she tours for a living. And I think that is wonderful.

Now, if it's Kiss and they have all the money in the world and their pie holes, I mean, I don't think all the members of Kiss are pieholes, but Gene Simmons. One is particularly well known to be a, it takes pride in being a pie hole. I don't think you need to see that. Like, if you're really just seeing them for the sake of nostalgia and they already have all the money in the world, world and the tickets are $400 and so on and so forth. But you know what? One of the best decisions, two of the best decisions, concert-going decisions that I've made lately,

is I never used to go to like arena shows. I had never been to an arena or stadium show until I was in my 40s. Yeah. And in the past three, four years, I went to see Stevie Wonder. and Erica Badu headlining at the Staples Center here in Los Angeles, the basketball arena here in Los Angeles. They were both life-changingly spectacular experiences. Erica is still making great new music. It's been a long time since Stevie has made an album.

And it was a wonderful decision that I did those things. These are some of the greatest musicians for me of my life. May I tell you about one of the greatest decisions I? ever made what's that so a number of years ago it may be three homes ago for you in Los Angeles I was in LA and I was visiting you at home and we were hanging out and we're having a good time and I got a call from our friend Mike Furman the wonderful musician I think we had plans to see each other later and he said hey I know we plan to see each other later but do you want to come over to

such and such performance space. I'm over here with a friend of a friend. I'm watching De La Sol's sound check for their concert tonight. And I made the best decision of my life. And I said, thanks, Mike, but I'm hanging out with my friend Jesse Thorne. I can't come. Hold on. I made a mistake.

That was the worst decision of my life. Sorry, Jesse. Wow. Should have left you in the dust. Did not cross my mind. That two few short years after that, Not the number two, but too few, T-O-O-O-Few. I don't remember exactly how many few short years after that.

De LaSoul would lose, Trujoy the Dove. And I would never get to see that guy perform. One of the most important artists in my life, those three people, that band. And I blew it. Nostalgia is a toxic impulse. That's something I've said for a long time, but I need to be very clear that that's I'm speaking specifically in a political context that political movements, where it's really where it's really toxic, I should say, is when it's in a political context, political movements

that are based on the twin fallacies that the past was better and we can go back to it. The past was great and we can make it great again, wink, wink, but there are plenty of political movements that are based on nostalgia all around the world and in history. And they're all dangerous. They're all toxic. bad. But listening to a band that you liked as a kid, you make a point that we can't, we need new IP in this world. I hate to use that term, but we do need to be supportive of new artists. But that is not mutually exclusive with being supportive of older artists. And going to a show in

particular is not necessarily about hearing the songs again, but it's about being in the presence of a creator that is meaningful to you before they die. I went to see David Byrne on Broadway, American Utopia. And I was like, you know what? I'm sad because it's all going to be a bunch of David Byrne solo songs that I've never heard before that he wrote last year. And they're going to be genius and everything else. But this part of me that just wants to hear those talking head songs.

And I know David Byrne is this guy who, believes that nostalgia is a toxic impulse, he has been constantly innovating, constantly moving forward. He is not a sentimentalist. He is not going to play all those talking head songs, especially since his relationship with the band has always been a little bit, weird, a little touchy. David Byrne played all those talking head songs, and I could not stop crying. It was an incredible moment, particularly because we had our kids who were whole human beings their own rights with us, and they loved those songs, too. Was that nostalgia? Was that a a toxic impulse.

It was a delightful surprise. I didn't know that he was going to play all those songs. But to get to hear Psycho Killer and, you know, once in a lifetime in person, come on. That's not going to last forever. So sure. Maybe you do a little sort of carbon offset

in your cultural. I think it's probably wise and good for you. To take in a little old stuff and give some money to. a little new stuff, keep your ears and eyes open for the new, support new artists on tour and in other ways that they ask you to support themselves. But it's like, yeah, you don't need to see kiss unless for whatever reason you really need to see kiss. And who am I to judge? Oh, that's me. It's Judge John Hodgman. Yeah, don't see Kiss, but go see David Byrne, I guess.

You know, it was one of the most amazing concert experiences I ever had. No. It's when I still lived San Francisco, so it was probably about 20 years ago. My wife and I bought tickets to see the 20th anniversary of the wake-up show, which is people might know Swake Holloway from MTV. Yeah. Sway, along with King Tech, hosted for many years, a very, very important hip-hop radio show called The Wake Up Show that was based in the Bay Area at... KMEL, and, you know, broke a lot of the greatest hip-hop artists and very, very important radio show,

sort of the West Coast stretch and Bobito. There was sort of the two twin poles of hip-hop on the radio when there wasn't a ton of hip-hop on the radio. And it had this gigantic bill, and on the bill was Q-tip from a tribe called Quest. Hell yeah. And Dale Asole. Wow. Tribe had been broken up at that point for, I don't know, 10 years or something.

Right. And there was a pretty tough relationship between the members of Tribe Cold Quest, a very tense relationship. They were broken up for a reason. I don't think they, like, hated each. It happens. Collaboration is hard. Yeah.

But I'm like, I had seen De Laa before, but I was like, I want to go see De La. I need to see all these, you know, it was a wake-up show, so there was a bunch of Chino XL. type dudes on the show as well. And we watched Daylaw, absolutely incredible. Tip comes out. You know, I couldn't be a bigger fan. I even like, you know, Kamaldi abstract and stuff.

Tip comes out. And it's like back in the days when I was a teenager, before I had status and before I had a pager, et cetera, et cetera. And then he's like, I want to bring, I want to bring somebody out. Alicia Heid Mohammed Alicia Heid Muhammad comes out This is the This is the DJ and sometime producer in Tribe

Says we got one more person we want to bring out Bif Dog Whoa Bif comes out People lost their minds Sure Tribe having played a show together in seven years or whatever 10 years I don't know

They go into scenarios or something. Truly one of the greatest moments of my life. And as you said, I had no reason to know, but just a few years later, we lost Fife. Right. And so it is a very special thing to get to share that, you know, I, when Tribe were making the greatest impact of my life,

I was in my young teens. You know, I was like 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. and I wasn't going to get to go see them when they were on their tour for the love movement because they were playing at some 21 and up place and I was 15 or 13 or whatever. And so the fact that I got to see them in that context, what a wonderful pleasure in my life.

What a joy in my life that I got to do that. And I'm just saying, I got more flavors than a pack of an hour later as beg your pardon, Mr. Keebler, but I love vanilla wavers. See, I got it going on because of the songs that I write. You got it going on because my crew is enough hype. Plus, I sit in my stands and my brands, I'm like Zorro.

I shop at Dagestina for a bag of Stella Dora, breadsticks. Oh, yes. It's the books plus three of my cousins, crazy, drazy, A, Blitz, and D. Because we're just a man that's on the mic. We're just a man that's on the mic. I'd go see Daz FX. They would never be wiggity, wiggity, wiggity, wiggity, wack. I promise you that much.

No, come on. The docket is clear. That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman. Judge John Hodgman created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. Our social media specialist is Megan Rosati, the podcast edited by A.J. McKeon. Daniel Spear, our video producer, the show produced by Jennifer Marmer. Photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account and Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgman pod.

Follow and subscribe to see our episodes and video-only content. And John, can I, before we get into what we're looking for Casey? is about. I just want to say the other day, we had this band on Bulls. I called American Football. This is a band where it was some guys who were friends in college. They sat around in their dorm room practicing, you know, playing emo songs in, you know, six, nine time or whatever. Yeah. These complicated math rock emo songs. They graduated from college. Their friend was starting. a record label. So he said, why don't you come record an album? They recorded an album, and then they all just went and got jobs and went their own separate ways. Right.

And nostalgia may be a toxic impulse, but 10, 15 years later, this album becomes this touchstone phenomenon in the international emo world. And unbeknownst to them, the one main guy who's had this other parallel music career, his booking agent starts asking around, would you be interested in American football? Right. They get booked to play stadiums. And I listened to their new music that they got to make because people went back to their first album.

And it is freaking beautiful music. So shout out to the guitarist from American football that is a Max Fun supporter. Yeah. And shout out to the whole band American football and shout out to the people who sought out amazing music and supported veteran musicians and gave these guys the chance to have a life in music that they never would have had otherwise.

One of the great moments of my life was sitting down in an unnamed location in New York City. We couldn't name the location because it's like it's too dangerous. It's like when the entire cabinet is in one location, they can't tell you where it is because of the, you know, these are national treasures sitting down with Jonathan Colton, John Darneill of Mountain Goats, and John Flansburg, if they might be giants. Four Johns.

Getting together. It was a lot of fun. And I don't know who said it first. I mean, maybe John or John was quoting somebody else. I can't remember whether it was Flans or Darniel. At one point, they were talking about stuff like this, and someone just raised a glass with alcohol in it, not water, no superstitions here. And just said, good luck to all bands. Good luck to all bands.

What are the greatest things? I think about good luck to all bands so much, John. Yeah. Good luck to all bands. Speaking of another phrase that you enjoy so much, I got to get out of here and go to some stores and places, Jesse. So let's talk about the cases that we need. Yeah.

It's fall. Speaking of football, American football, that is. Apparently, football seasons right around the corner. You have disputes with your partner or housemates about how much sports is allowed on TV. Do you have disputes with your nine-year-old about that topic? Where does your nine-year-old stand? Does Frankie come and yell at you when you're trying to watch the Giants game? Speaking of sports, should siblings be forced to attend each other's sports tournaments or dance performances?

Is forced support in the family spirit or is it every child from themselves? Is there a better football TV show than Friday Night Lights? I dare you. American football. I dare you to come at me with your hot take or your controversial opinion. I mean, it's got to be necessary roughness, the syndicated television spinoff of the popular, raunchy sports comedy film. I'll take your word for it. Maybe it's on Showtime or something.

I can't remember. Sports is all about, look, you couldn't have sports unless there were disputes between teams, challenges, contests, triumphs, and losses. We want all of your sports disputes. Challenge me. Why don't you? Here I am telling people to engage with media that challenges them. why don't you challenge me? What are your sports fights?

I don't want to hear about your sports night. Rachel, Josh Molina for life. Give me your sports fights. And you know what? You got a problem with Arliss? Bring it to us. Yeah. Sports TV shows, sports movies, sports in the home.

Sports on the road. Sports, sports, sports. And also, what about Huey Lewis in the news, sports? No one could have an argument with that, could they? No. You know what? I don't care what your dispute is. Send it to us. Maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

We need them. We need them, baby. Maximumfund.org slash JJHO. And we will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network. Of artists-owned shows. Supported.

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