When Love Feels Like a Tug-of-War: Breaking the Cycle of Conflict
00:00 Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman. And for the past 30 years, I've been helping people just like you learn to love and be loved better. Here on the Language of Love Conversations, I'm talking to some of the world's most influential and revolutionary experts, thought leaders, spiritual teachers, and celebrities about love, sex, and relationships from a mind, body, and spirit perspective. And that way, my goal is to awaken your mind, body, and soul. It's time to become fluent in the language of love. Brian and Stacey, welcome back to the language of love. So it's been, with the holidays and everything, it's been a few weeks since we talked, right? More or less.
00:49 Yeah. So how are we doing? We're okay. Okay. So you said not to have sex, and that same weekend we did. And then it was actually really good. However, the next day I ended up with an infection, and now sex is totally off the table. Right.
01:16 Like, we're going back and forth with things because the last thing we talked about was being on the triangle, and we're trying really hard to look at that. but I think that's been really hard. Yeah. We talked about the drama triangle because when we last spoke, one of the key issues was that you were arguing a lot and that you were getting stuck in these arguments. And so we talked about the drama triangle as a strategy to start, you know, because when you get into these stuck places in your argument, it's because you're stuck in a persona and you're stuck in, you know, in this skewed perspective where you lose compassion and empathy and perspective you get on this victim villain or hero thing yes right and so we talked about how to shift we talked about how to recognize it i'm going to put a pin in the
02:05 sex question i do have some questions about that but we'll put a pin in that for now you say that you've been arguing still and it's difficult to be you know are you finding it difficult to stop in the middle and recognize you're in the on the triangle are you recognizing that you're on the drama triangle and just can't get off it are you forgetting about it all together in the midst of an argument what's happening I think there has been a little shift in terms of Rob I mean Brian taking a moment and understanding that okay this this we're stuck right now so we need time to kind of think things over and that has been actually helping because either one of us come back with different ideas or understanding of where the other one's coming from the the struggle
02:55 I'm having is that I'm trying to explain it where the bottom line is we have to look at everything relationally not individually because when we start looking individually which is where I'm having the hardest time with Brian because that's what it always seems like where I'm it's my ideas in my say and and it's not really like that I'm just trying to look at what is the best for the whole relationship or the whole being or the whole house or what's best for the whole not just what's me right but it's coming across that way or he's only hearing it that way but I think he gets the idea that bottom line that's really what I'm trying to do and say I may not be articulating it right but if you give him a chance I guess so so can you give me an example from a recent argument
03:48 you've had where he got that perspective or that belief yeah that belief yeah so the very recent example was so I'm trying to tell him that we need to get things in line and be disciplined if we're planning to go away for March break we're planning to go away for our 25th anniversary there's some things we have to do and if we just arbitrarily arbitrarily say yes to everything without a plan then it's not going to work and then i'm going to feel very dejected because we just plan these things and talk about the future and it never happens so when you say things we have to do do you mean financially to save for it or logistically to plan it financially to save but well kind of both because there's things that we have to do in order to have
04:39 time to do those things yeah we're taking our time to do everything else and then when it comes time to say okay well what have we got done or what's been lined up for this thing and we say oh I didn't have the time or I just don't have the time but I know that you have the time anyway so there was a event that we're committed to doing every week so Brian and I play a sport together every week we do that twice a week sometimes three times and we're committed to do that you know every monday and tuesday for now yeah for the year so now brian got a call and said the person said i have these raptor tickets for you basketball game you know would you like to go for a game and right away he was he was gung-ho and he said yes now while i don't care it's just the fact that i asked you
05:33 earlier this morning, do we have all these things in line? And you said, I don't really have the time. I'll get back to you. You know, I don't even have a moment to breathe. And here you are saying, I'm going to go to this. Now in his mind, he's thinking, well, if I'm already gone for the two hours to play volleyball with three and a half, then, well, that's because you want to go to the bar after. Okay. But if he says, yeah, we, you want to do that, then I'm already gone. so it's not like i'm losing yeah and then so i explained to him i said yes but at the same time though if you're willing to forego that then you should forego it all together and just be focused on what you're saying you're going to do yeah this is an issue of priority right and if you've
06:17 already committed to me to doing this each week now basically you're reneging on what you committed with me and you're going off with someone else but then you say we don't have time to date not like we're together playing it's just we're there together in the same space not we're together on the same team so anyways he was not gung-ho about what I was saying I was trying to get a point across like you're not thinking like what I'm trying to tell you about the whole picture it's not about what I want to do or that I'm upset I'm not going anywhere I don't care I'm still going to go and play the sport it has nothing to do with me well no that's not true though it did because what maybe it didn't matter you didn't technically care if you went to the game or did something
07:01 special and you didn't but you did feel like you're devalued that he didn't check with you didn't check in with you about it and that he wasn't prioritizing the goals that the two of you had set, which included spending this quality time together several times a week and really making that committing to that. And so he was going to break this commitment, which theoretically would have been OK, but he went ahead and broke it without discussing with you. And second, that if you're willing to break this commitment, you know, you're doing one more thing that during a time that we could be taking care of things to work toward our
07:43 vacations and our plans together. right? So you're willing to forfeit our quality time for something else, but not for making the plans, right? So you were upset and you did feel devalued. Yes, but he did ask me first, like he did discuss it before he just said yes to something. Okay, that's good. And so what happened then when he asked? He said, no, I'm just going to cancel it. And then I afterwards, I said, no, no, no, you're right. You should just go do it because you're going to go anyways. So just, just go anyways. Well, she meant I was going to be busy playing volleyball anyway. So, you know, it's a free ticket. Okay. Just go do it. Right. So then why did you argue about it?
08:20 What was the argument about? To get to that place. And then afterwards I just decided, um, I'm not going to go to the game. Okay. Wait, wait. So let me just understand the timeline. You have a plan. Let's say it was on a Thursday night. I don't know what day it was to go and do your week, one of your weekly sporting events together. Your friend calls you and says i have these amazing game tickets do you want to come you say to your friend i do want to come but i want to check with stacy first right you go and you say hey stacy i know we were supposed to play tonight or tomorrow whenever it was but i got invited to go to this game then what happens when was the fight well then at that point there stacy said well that's kind
09:04 of convenient you can drop volleyball and go to this game like but you've got a lot of work to do like there's a lot of stuff commitments that we have in terms of doing that and i said well if i was going to play volleyball anyways for three and a half hours the game's gonna be four or four and a half hours by the time i travel and stuff like that like it's it's a free ticket and i get to hang out with that guy and you know i don't hang out guys too much so i thought oh it'd be cool to do that you know and then she's like well you know that's not cool that you're you're doing that you're going there like you know you're you're going back on what you've committed to me already for volleyball and you've got stuff to do for the business like there's so much other things you can
09:40 do financially for the business and i said well okay how about this how about i don't go to the game i'll just tell them no don't worry about i won't go to the game and i won't go to volleyball either so i can stay home and work on their money even more and then she's like oh oh you know now you're kind of being petty or now you're doing tit for tat or my daughter was hearing this conversation and she was trying to force me to go and i ended up being where i didn't go to either i just stayed home i worked on the business and i got some stuff done so yeah prioritizing that time but then he thanks me for saying you know thank you for keeping us disciplined and accountable to what we're saying we're gonna do but when i'm reading that in the message i'm not really taking
10:19 it for yeah he actually means that i'm taking it for him being like condescending or him not why i don't like you being condescending because because i feel like no i wasn't initially initially the energy was i was okay but then afterwards when i actually texted to her i was kind of like yeah you know what like it's good that i took that time off of like even whether it's volleyball pickleball or whether it's basketball whatever it's actually good that i took that time off to do that because she needed pressing answers financially for certain things and I had not been giving it to her. Well, that's what it feels like this comes down to, right?
10:59 That there's gonna be lots of distractions. And when you had last talked about needing to do these things and put these things in order to set yourselves up for success with these goals you had set for yourselves and your family, you had a plan around that. And you had said, it sounded like
11:19 from what Stacey was saying, you had said like, I don't even have time for this. Like, I don't know what I'm going to have time for this. So in her mind, I'm not saying she's correct, but I can understand that in her mind, this idea of like one minute, not one minute, but at one point you're saying, I don't have time to do anything, much less this important work for our family. And then, but you do have the time to go to a game with your friend. It feels like siphoning energy away, right?
11:48 And so if what this comes down to, I think, and this has come up several times, is this one of the things that's going to create more open heartedness between the two of you, especially from Stacey, is a sense of financial safety. And that is like a huge issue. Now, there's only so much you can do, right? There's only so much time you have. I know you're working your butt off. There's only so much you can do to create that financial safety, you know, and you're certainly not the only ones. all, you know, so many are struggling financially right now. Like this is a really hard time economically for everyone. And so I get that there's only so much you can do, but at the same
12:28 time, for lack of a better term, love language is going to be seeing you invest time and energy in that. And so when you invest, when you voluntarily invest time away from that, when it's time sensitive, right? Because there's only a few months here where you're before spring break and your anniversary and these things are plenty. So it's not like you're talking about something a year from now, right? So it's imminent. So what would feel like love to her is you seeking opportunities to invest time there, right? And so when you unintentionally, you weren't trying to hurt her, but when you unintentionally jumped at this opportunity, which is understandable to have an escape, to be with your friend.
13:16 It was free. It was a rare opportunity that got read as siphoning time, you know, time theoretically that you could have invested. You're willing to give up our couple of times. So why aren't you willing to invest in the intentions and in the financial safety, right? You can understand that.
13:36 Yeah, I can understand that afterwards. Yeah, absolutely. And that's my text behind it saying that, no, I get it. You're just looking out for the family and just, you know, for our goals and accountability. Yeah. If it was rare, then I think I would have said,
13:49 yeah, you know what? You'll never get this opportunity again. But Brian's already done it two times before this time. So he's never done it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It seemed like so detrimental that he had to do it. Yeah, yeah. And it was an easy seat anyways.
14:05 There you go. So, yeah. And so what I would encourage you to do, So there's two, there's different ways, right? So when you spoke to him, when he said, I'm going to go to this game, right? How could you have said it to him in a way that wouldn't be on the triangle? Remember what we talked about? How are you feeling?
14:26 What are you feeling in your body? What's the story that you're telling yourself and what do you want? Okay. So how could you have responded to him? He says, hey, I just got invited, free tickets. I think I'd really like to go, right? And then all your feelings are starting to come up. What could you have said that would not have been on the triangle?
14:47 Maybe I would have, I guess, empathized with his excitement or, you know, kind of sided with his excitement and said, like, oh, that's awesome. Like, that's amazing that you get another chance to go watch this game. And that would be totally cool. I mean, you would be missing volleyball with me, and I'm willing to let you do that so you can have some fun. but no, you're already on the triangle. So let's start here. It's fine. If you want to blow me off in our special time, all right. So, so let's start. He's just said, I got a ticket. Okay.
15:28 And go back to that moment. My friend just offered me tickets. What are you feeling in your body? that damn brian oh there he is uh yay you get too hot no you're not what are you physically feeling in your body where are you holding the resentment okay the feeling you're having is resentment and anger in your belly right okay good you're laughing at how on the triangle you are it is really funny because this is what we do right you know why why i'm laughing so much too is because i literally thought about this i said i'm pretty sure i said it the wrong way because this didn't go the way i planned even though he got it in the end yeah i know the delivery we need to work on the delivery maybe a little bit that's what we're doing
16:25 the issues aren't what what caused the argument it's the communication always that seems to cause the argument unless one of you is a total and complete narcissistic asshole which is not the case you know in most situations it's the communication or miscommunication or poor communication that and part of what allows for good communication is tuning in to yourself like that's the first step right before you go to reaction right this is why i'm trying to walk you through it right he says i've got tickets right you feel an activation in you that for all of us it's not just you it just comes out your mouth i heard it not just feeling i heard it yeah you heard it right so if you stop and and this is hard to do I mean it's hard for me to do in
17:20 my relationship he says something that activates me and something wants to come out of my mouth right stop take a breath like what is happening here right because that's the only way you can figure out what you want I would have said then that I'm conflicted because I don't start just follow my instructions. What are you feeling in your body? When he says that you started to say in your belly, what were you feeling? Tightness, pain, tightness, conflict. Okay. No, don't try to make, Nope, Nope, Nope. Okay. Don't jump ahead. Okay. I'm so that you would start with, I'm feeling tightness in my belly right now. Okay. I'm feeling tightness in my belly right now. and the tightness is because these words are always said the x feeling is because i have a story
18:17 that's why okay so i have the tightness in my belly and it's because of i have a story that's really important yeah i have a story that the story that you're going to disregard my time with you and you're going to disregard what you said or what you promised you would do and make the game more important that's your story of what's happening but that's not what's causing the tightness in your belly what's causing the tightness in your belly is what your story is about what it says about him and how he feels about you or his, like, so it's, you're going to do your, you're recounting what he's doing, but that's not what's causing you the tightness in your belly. The tightness in your belly is coming from the meaning you're making from what he's
19:14 doing. Right. So what is the meaning you're making from that act? That I'm not important. Okay. Boom, boom. Right. So I have tightness in my belly because I have a story that you've chosen to forego our time together and forego using that time to do other things for our family and go with your friend. And I, it gives, makes me feel that you, I have this story that I'm not important, that we're not a priority and that our goals aren't important. Right. Okay. Hey, it's Dr. Laura Berman. I've been a sex, love and relationship therapist for over 30 years. And the main question I always get asked is how the heck do we spice it up in a long-term monogamous relationship? Well, if you want to take your love life, your sex life to the next level,
20:09 whether you're in a relationship or not, check out my free course on quantum sex. It's going to teach you how to take your sexual response to the next level, capable of full body orgasms, how to use sex magic to manifest your dreams, and how to connect on an even deeper level sexually with your partner. Just go to drlauraberman.com and you'll find it right there on the homepage, the Quantum Sex free course. Check it out and let me know what you think. now before you respond because there's another step in this let me check in with you brian as you listen to that what are you feeling in your body are you feeling defensive are you feeling angry are you feeling receptive are you feeling shut down are you curious what do you what do
21:05 you notice if she were to say i mean obviously we're replaying it we're not in the moment but what do you imagine this has happened before so i feel receptive because when she explains it like that one of the main narratives or main stories of the conflict that we have is often i think is that she doesn't matter that she's not important and i never feel like she doesn't matter or not important so i think that triggers my understanding and my reception receptiveness to it because it's very often i hear that she you know stacy feels she's not important okay so you're open to that right so i feel x in my body because i have the story that not just the facts but the meaning the story is the meaning you're making from it right and what i want this is where you
21:54 can be passive aggressive stacy so you have to claim what you want it's up to him whether he gives it to you or not okay so what i want in this specific situation i'm not saying i want you to be and her husband or father, whatever. What I want is what? No, what I want is for you to put me as priority and for you to put an emphasis on what you're seeing, you're going to do and do what you're going to say. With regard to,
22:25 because did he know that, did he make the connection between going to this game and not working on the stuff you'd planned, right? He's not even thinking about that, okay? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I take that for granted and think he does. Yeah. No. So now you're making it to him. That's going to sound like a blanket statement. Like I want to be a priority. Okay. You are a prior. What? You know? So what I want is what in this particular situation, what do you really want? Be honest. If you could design it,
23:03 If you were talking to a girlfriend, you're talking to me and you could wish for anything. And he's hearing me and I don't have to feel guilty about it. I don't have to feel like a hard ass. I don't have, you know, what do I want? What do you want? I want to go away from Arch Great. So I want you to make it happen. Boom!
23:25 Make it happen. Do the magic. I know you can. I believe in you. Let's go. That's a bomb line. So you can imagine how, first of all, how that's something that takes this process. You're not alone in me having to like, no, that, you know, everyone struggles with this.
23:44 So don't feel bad about that. But it's hard enough to do when you're in a calm, resolved, present place. When you're in an activated place, it's even harder, right? So you can also, so you have to ground yourself. And we'll talk in a second how to do that. You have to take some deep breaths before reacting. You have to scan your body and notice. Start with the feeling because that's where you're going to find the answers of what you
24:11 want to say next. So you can even say to him, he comes to you and says, honey, I'm thinking about going to this game with so-and-so. He gave me tickets. What do you think? And you're immediately activated. You take a deep breath and say, well, I am noticing I feel really tight in my belly. I think I just need, you know, give me 10 minutes.
24:32 I just need to like really be with us and figure out what my story is and what I want. Because maybe you don't know right then, right? And the story is the meaning, not just the facts, the meaning you're making about you, about your relationship, about that. And what you want is not in general. If you could just, you don't need, remember what I'm always telling you, And this is really common for trauma victims and for codependents. And I can say, I struggle with this too as a recovering codependent. You don't need a reason to want what you want. You are allowed to want whatever you want, okay?
25:11 Even if it seems irrational or unfair, or I should just let him go or whatever. No, you're having a reaction. He can then say, well, you know what? I want this trip to happen too. So I would like to go, if it's okay with you, I want to go to the game and then I'm going to stay up till 2am or I'm going to take time tomorrow morning. There's ways to work it out then. It doesn't mean he has to forego the game. He might've chosen that. We'll ask him in a minute what might've happened, but it doesn't matter what he chooses. What matters is that he can
25:40 align with what you want and find a solution to give it to you. Because what you're wanting is what he wants. You take that trip together. But you have to be willing to say it, which is where your little victim persona struggle? Yeah. Right. Look at how much I had to cajole you to just say, I want you to make this trip happen. I know. You're not making him into a bad person. You're not making him into a bad husband. You're not even making him wrong. You're claiming your reaction to what's happening you're claiming your story that's causing the reaction it's all arguable you're not saying it's the truth you're saying it's the story and you're saying what you want very clearly so as you hear that just to try this on brian what do you imagine your reaction to
26:39 that is oh i'm gonna go too you know i'm gonna i got a plan to do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna yeah get on this break i'm gonna do this like i've got a plan all behind that because i thought i thought i had the time sort of for volleyball anyways it was only gonna be an extra hour to an hour and a half more than volleyball because i've been working my tail off like crazy like i just thought that i could take a quick little break at the front but i understand like time is of the essence i told you like you know so you would have said in that moment when she said i want to make this this happen i want you to make this trip happen you would have said i totally understand i'm still going to go to the game but here is my plan to make it happen yes okay and what would
27:25 your reaction to that be bullshit your reaction to that would be bullshit facing uh my reaction would be, I've heard this before. Okay. Okay. So, so then you want to ask a question. All right. I hear you saying that you're going to do that. You, there've been times in the past when you've said you're going to do things and you haven't. So what can we do to make it, to make sure so that I can feel clear that you're really going to follow through on doing it? You know, when is the next time, right? So let's say he says, I'm going to set aside time to do this, right? And you can say, all right, I just really, I'm noticing that I really want some assurance there. When is the next time tangibly that you're going to work on that? Right. And then what would you say?
28:22 I'd give it the plan, give it the time. I would look at my calendar, give it the time, and I would follow through with that and say, look, I'm going to have undivided work from such and such to such and such. And if he doesn't keep his agreement in that context, when it has been so clear, you come and we'll talk about it. And then we've got other issues, right? Because he's always saying, I make it happen. I understand. I just, you know, it's just not necessarily on the same timeline. But in this case, you have a very clear goal. You have a very clear timeline. There's only so much time and it's either going to get done or not done, right? So if he's not keeping his agreements there then we have other issues we have to talk about right that's more than just
29:03 communication but but it's not really going to be clear unless i don't ask for what i yes if you have to and also because what often happens and i i can't guarantee this is what's happening but i sense around the edges of it and it may not even be conscious if his story is you're just brow beating him and trying to control him and it's your way or the highway he's constantly in resistance to you even against his own best interest right he wants this trip too but he's not going to be controlled for no reason right he's not going to be just like you're you know you suck do what i say which is basically what you were saying to him you didn't mean to what you were really saying is what we just got you to say but but what what you actually said was
29:56 you suck. You don't keep your word. I'm pissed. Right. Which is a very different, he's going to have a very different reaction to that. So the question, and this is what happens in every relationship. The question becomes, how does our partner show up? The only thing we can control is what's happening right here inside ourselves. So when we change what's happening inside ourselves and what we're communicating and how we're communicating, and we're very clear and very clean and taking responsibility for our own feelings and what we want, how does that change the way the other person shows up? And I find very often it drastically changes. And if it doesn't change, then it becomes really apparent what is going on, right? So maybe I'm not saying this is
30:44 true. I don't think this is true. But in another couple in this scenario, it may be that the husband really doesn't want to go away. He doesn't want it. He's feeling so disconnected from his wife and his family that he actually is just saying yes and he doesn't really mean it. So he's going to keep sabotaging it even though, right? Or maybe he's got some real, you know, immobilization and depression going on that's causing him not to be able to, and he's having some anxiety that's causing him to shut down and not meet goals, right? So there's all sorts of things that can become more apparent and more clear when you get cleaner inside yourself in the communication. So this is something that's going to take a lot of practice and taking time
31:30 and fumbling a little bit, but keeping your agreements is something that has come up a lot. And I get, Brian, that when you're working your tail off, as you say, and you feel like you're burning the candle at both ends, and you're just looking for respite. You're just looking for some relief and some fun and a reset. You can justify things. You can procrastinate. You can put things off, right? But if you want the relationship, this piece of it is a really important piece for Stacey's sense of safety in the relationship and being held in the relationship and her ability to, as we talked about before, to get into her feminine energy, right? Because what we want, remember, is for her to be more in her feminine energy and for you to be more in your masculine.
32:22 So the way that she communicated that in the end was you were in your feminine, right? You were saying how you feel. You were saying the story you had. You were saying what you wanted. You weren't telling him what to do. You weren't yelling at him. You weren't telling him off, right? You were just saying you were ready to receive. Here is what I want. Here's how I feel handing it to him. Right. And then he has to be in his masculine and say, okay, I am holding that. I am taking responsibility for that. You're the person I love. I want to give you what you want and what you want is what I want. How are we going to do that? And then I'm going to keep my agreement with you. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So that's something you both need to be working on.
33:07 as much as you can. And we'll check in next time. And it's not going to be automatic, but do take that time before you respond to tune in. Maybe write down, just like I'm feeling tightness in my belly and you're pissed off. What's the story I have that he's not important? And then you may write down just the facts like you started to say, but always come to the meaning you're making after that. Okay. So what does that really, what is that? What do I imagine that says about how he feels about me, how he feels about the relationship, how he feels about the family, what's important to him, you know, like what is the meaning I'm making? And then what do I want? Just take some time with him before you can, before you give him the answer or you resolve
33:51 the conflict. And same for you. We didn't even get to you, Brian, but you have your end of it, right? So when she said that to you, you had a physical reaction and a story and a want, right so that's how you resolve conflict boom no problema let's talk about the sex why as usual i always say no sex and then people go and have sex i tried to hold my end of the bargain dr laura i did i said no we're not alone how did it happen in the first place what was happening that led to set um i think because there was no expectation right expectation no pressure and we were out we were having a good time of course wine was involved and but it was not you know like I didn't overdo it or anything and I don't know it was just very nice to have a
34:47 nice night and we were laughing and I just felt connected and I actually I don't even remember exactly what like how it just unfolded was that the night that you said i'm feeling frisky when when we get ready and it took like two hours later no after we did a workout we did the dishes we did all this stuff and then finally no no no okay no it was just bedtime and yeah and i just felt connected and i said okay let's and he did say no no you know we're not supposed to i said i know but if i feel it we should act on it and then i didn't say no a second time and how was it when you did it it was good actually it was good and were you present yes i was present okay yeah i was present yeah and then what infection did you i ended up having
35:48 a urinary tract infection and yeah I don't even want to think about sex right now that hurt are you on medication I was yeah and I'm off of it now but I don't know there's like it's it's just weird how I am right now with it with with it being off of medication what do you mean it still hurt? No, but it's just, I have this urge to go urinate like every five seconds, only in the evening, like as soon as it gets dark. And I don't know if it's just psychological where I remember doing that for the two weeks. And now if I'm not distracted, then I keep thinking about it. I'm not sure. Well, if it doesn't get better, go back to the doctor because sometimes they can be tenacious and the medication doesn't get it all out. So definitely go to the doctor and drink a
36:41 lot. Cranberry juice definitely helps. It's not a full, it's not a absolute solution, but you know, organic unsweetened cranberry juice is good for your energy. I just make it fresh. Yeah, that's good. All right. So you had a slip. I'm glad it was positive. I still feel that we should stay away from it. Oh yeah, we're staying away from it now. Not just because of the urinary tract infection. So we can be clear on expectations for when you feel better.
37:12 But until further notice, until we talk at least next time, let's keep that expectation off the table. And I don't even wanna say, if you feel, because when we did this last time, I caved and I was like, all right, if you,
37:27 and then it became a hot mess as I was afraid it would be. So flip up aside, I still am of the opinion, if you agree with it, that sex should be off the table. Has there been any other affection connection physically besides the sexual encounter? I don't know. I mean, I have, I have kind of leaned into you couple times when we're out but nothing really nothing different anything you've noticed brian i'm in this perplexed state because before uncovering this a little bit deeper maybe a year to two years ago like i would always show her affection in a physical way like always like grab her by the hips lean in for a kiss it wouldn't always lead to sex but I would always
38:24 show my affection like an intimate affection not like she's a roommate like I would be like grab her leg right grab her bum or something wherever she was in the house I just show her that like like you're hot like I like you're beautiful you're hot I'm crazy about you like and it doesn't always have to happen at that moment when I touched her but now i feel like i'm you know almost uh repelling her when i do that i feel like i'm abusing her sexually you know salting her in some way so i kind of i've mostly taken any of that touching off the table sometimes i get the hint of playfully you know pick a ball get the paddle i give a little tap on the bum afterwards i think about like oh that was probably wrong and
39:07 so i've got so many mixed messages in my head like i see her in the house i want to come up an older endeavor yeah it's pretty old but i know yeah this is a tricky situation because so much of her abuse as we've discussed in our earlier sessions so much of stacy's abuse happened and started around those you know innocent acts of affection so they were loaded for her right and i think that's what you're saying until you realize before you realized how loaded they were and how triggering they were of her past trauma, you did it all the time, right? And so I asked you at one point, and I'm going to ask you again now, because at the point in the past when I asked you, Stacey, like, is there any physical affection that isn't loaded
39:54 for you, you know, with that past trauma, you weren't really able to think of anything. So I'm just going to check in with you again and see if there's anything, because what I would love is to just find one or two things. Maybe it's playing with your hair a little bit. Maybe it's, you know, holding your elbow. I mean, I don't care what it is, but some form of, I love you. I'm your romantic partner.
40:23 I see you romantically in a totally non-demand, non-expectation way that isn't linked to the abuse of the past. maybe i don't know uh a kiss on the forehead no one's ever kissed me on my forehead okay yeah i can't think of too many what about your hair anything with playing with your hair or uh heading you know stroking your hair yeah there's stuff with that yeah okay yeah not hand holding or hand massage or anything
41:07 i mean yeah you can hold my hand okay and that's good that's good hold your hand kiss you on the forehead yeah like i have a hard time holding my kids hands i mean after a certain age i feel very awkward I mean as little kids I can hold their hand no problem but as they're older and I see them gravitating to try to hold my hand it's so uncomfortable like I want to pull my way but I I'm trying really hard not to make them feel bad yeah so the goal is the goal is and I was going to check in with you about how because I know you were on a waiting list to get treatment right but the goal would be to get you EMDR or trauma because a lot of those things, while they were links leading to the abuse and linked to the abuse are going to be more loosely linked.
42:05 You know what I mean? They're there in the chain, but they're not tightly close to the abuse and they can be pulled out with some trauma work, EMDR, you know, brain spotting, whatever. So the idea is that in addition to just like resolving the trauma in general but there will be more and more things that can be put into your physical affection toolbox together as you start working on these because it's not even it's beyond thought it's an immediate yeah any jerk reaction yes and then so that would be one thing that would happen and then the other thing that could or would happen is that we would do like, okay, you know, he's holding your hand or, you know, giving you a hug and you're, and we wouldn't want to force this now, but like you're grounding in the present
43:00 moment, you're remembering it's him and not the other person you're, you know, but, but some, some pulling out has to have the trauma reactions has to happen first. So how far out are you from getting that help? Ironically, I called them today because I just thought it was really funny that I didn't even get a call to let me know I was on the waiting list. And I just thought because of the holidays, you know, give them time. So I called and she didn't even receive my referral. So, oh, no. So she said, I'm sorry, I don't know where you sent it because we changed our emails. And I'm like, I'm so glad I called because here I'm thinking I'm waiting for you to call me. yeah anyway she she sent me an email and she said okay if you resend it then I'll make sure I process
43:47 it now that we've talked so I told her I said I'm going to go back look and see where it went and then resend it tonight so that it's fresh because I really need to get on this yeah because honestly we just process it within two to three days and then we call you within the um I think she said a week or two and then you're put on the list yeah so what i would do is send it tonight yes and call and yeah and call and make sure toward the middle or end of the day tomorrow that they got it you know and then just stay on it so now that means we have to wait a couple more months right but that's okay we'll just keep hoping that she understands like i because i'm gonna see if i can get the time stamp where i sent it to her in november when i got back from
44:34 my doctor, because she said that if there was a problem, we send it back to your doctor and fax it. And that's what he did. He faxed it back and he sent it back to me saying they rejected it and they want you to do it. And I told her all of that. So maybe she might, you know, because I, yeah, hopefully maybe she'll slide you toward the front of the line. Yeah. But yeah, you, it sounds like you have to kind of be on top of it a little more. So, okay, so we're going to do that. You're going to let me know next time what the timeline is with that. And in the meantime, you're going to start, you know, and I want you to keep thinking about it. Like even do a body scan, like, okay, if he patted the top of my head, how would that feel?
45:15 No, that I can't. Okay. So kissing me on the forehead is good. What if he kissed me on the nose? And also you seeking those opportunities, like when you laid your head on his shoulder or whatever. So when you, just like with sex, really being aware of when you feel and looking for the opportunity to feel the desire to connect with him affectionately, because sex is off the table, so it's not going to lead anywhere else, right? So that pressure is off and there's space there for you to be more physically affectionate with each other. Okay. All right. So you're going to do that. You're going to keep working with the drama triangle. I'm glad you're spending some quality time together. Brian's going to keep his commitments and show you that he's going to do
46:02 what he says and says what he does. Oh, look, he wants to kiss you on the forehead. Very good. Now, how does that feel? Good. Good. Okay. Well, we got another physical affection marker we can use. Very good. All right. Good progress, guys. Thank you so much. All right. We're going to talk soon. Thank you. Bye. Bye.
There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click any sentence in the transcript to leave one.