Let's Go To Court! - 282: A Mommy Blogger & a Disappearance in Alaska

Episode Date: January 11, 2024

HOLY CRAPOLA! Tickets to our March 29th show are already SOLD OUT, so we’ve added another live show for the following night! Come see us at 7 p.m., March 30, at the Madrid Theater in KANSAS CITY! The Patreon presale is live now, but the general public sale begins at noon CST today. Get your tickets here: https://bit.ly/4aUmGu8 In the meantime, please enjoy this Patreon bonus episode. If you want to hear more bonus episodes, or want early access to future live shows, please consider joining our Patreon at: https://www.patreon.com/lgtcpodcast Btw, we miss you! See ya in February! 

Brandy. Kristen. What the hell are you doing here? I am here with an exciting announcement. Announce away, my friend. Tickets to our live show in Kansas City are on sale now. Okay, we are so excited. This is our first live show that we're doing truly by ourselves.

It's March 29th in Kansas City at the Madrid Theater. We really, really, really hope you can make it. Please come. We would love to see you there. You'll find a link to buy the tickets in the show notes of this episode. And as a thank you for taking the time to listen to our little announcement today, we have a gift. A gift for you. No, no, we do not.

No. They must first click that link. Oh, okay. The gift only happens after you click the link. And then they can come back to this and then listen to this episode that was a Patreon bonus episode. But now is available to everyone. That's right. To you.

Perhaps a little bribe to get you to buy tickets to the live show. Perhaps also a bribe to say, hey, why don't you sign up for Patreon? There are so many other bonus episodes on there. And if I recall, in this very special episode we're sharing today, your sister Casey was on. She did get very frustrated with us. We made multiple incorrect assumptions during her case. Yes. And enjoy.

Yeah, yeah. Have a good time, why don't you? Thank you, thank you. And we'll see you all when we come back in February. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso.

I'm Brandi Pond. I'm Kasey Frame. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about a mommy blogger. And I'll be talking about a disappearance in Alaska. And Brandi, what the hell will you be doing? I'm just going to be hanging out, listening. Kasey, good to have you back on the pod. Thanks. It's good to be here. Is this like my Mother's Day present because I created your favorite person on the planet? I mean, I think it might have something to do with that. Because London is 100% my favorite person on the planet.

She's amazing. That's so sweet. And you know, I am covering a mommy blogger in honor of Mother's Day. Excellent. Yeah, it's a really sweet story. You're going to love it. Yeah, I'm familiar with it. You are?

Only in that it's been, like, all over the place, and I've read, like, little tiny blurbs about it. I don't know the whole story, so I'm excited to hear it. Okay, well, I have no idea, so I've got nothing. Welcome to the bonus episode, everyone. Oh, yeah, hi. Yes, it's the bonus episode. Oh, yeah, hi! Yes, it's the bonus episode. How's it going? Hello.

Casey, we're so excited you're here. I'm excited to be here. I've been threatening to do this for like a year. I know. You have. You've been saying you wanted money. Come on. And finally, you got enough blackmail on us to get in here.

We have to let you on. Those pictures of Brandy are disturbing. Yes. Yes. Should I start us off get in here. We have to let you on. Those pictures of Brandy are disturbing. Yes. Should I start us off here? Yeah. You don't have anything you want to talk about? You just want to jump right in? I'm excited. Oh, wait. She's touching the mic. I'm touching the mic.

What the fuck are you doing? It felt like it was in a weird spot. Don't make me turn this podcast around! I won't touch it anymore. It's done. It's fine. Don't make me turn this podcast around. I won't touch it anymore. It's done. It's done. Casey, you can touch it, but... Oh, right.

But not when we're all talking. Yeah, no touching it while we're actively speaking. Sorry, sorry. I don't know the rules. Nobody gave me any rules about touching the mic. What rules do we need to say? I don't know the rules. Nobody gave me any rules about touching the mic. What rules do we need to say? I don't know. Okay.

You made it sound like the 10 seconds of silence at the beginning was something everybody just knows. And I messed that up, too. Well, we've forgiven you for that. Yeah. If you make another mistake, we will let you know. That's right. All right. You're going to give me a pet butt?

I really love your outfit today. Oh, yeah. You look super cute. Yeah. I just ordered a new jean jacket. I think that looks fairly similar to that one. Oh, yeah? What brand is it?

Copying you. Well, I ordered it from Torrid. Yours is cut from the cloth, which is very cute. How do you know? Is there a brand name on this? There's a logo on it somewhere. I saw it. You're such a creep.

I feel like that was a little creepy. It's a brand that I am familiar with. I recognize the little thingy. Oh, okay. All right. Anyway. I like that underwear you're wearing. I have a similar pair.

It's not the exact same. Your new couch looks great from the bushes. Yeah, really cool. Thanks. All right. Anyhow. Hang on. Oh, look who's touching their mic now.

Who's touching their mic? I waited until no one was talking like a pro. A goddamn pro. Okay. Shout outs to Colin Itaghi for the the press democrat he did a ton of reporting on this case i had to sign up for the press democrat and you know what i got to oh yeah you you were well and we got to so if there's anything you want to read on there we got another month got another month of free articles you better, every case now for the next four weeks is coming from the press.

This is like fresh. It's very fresh. Really fresh. Mine is not fresh. Well, that's okay. There's no like, you don't get extra points. No, I know. No, I'm saying like you don't get points off because it's not fresh.

Oh, okay. But I do get extra points for it being fresh. get points off because it's not fresh. But I do get extra points for it being fresh. Do we get to trade these points in for something at some point? Yeah. Used cosmetics from my bathroom.

I don't want those. That does not sound like a prize. That sounds like a punishment. I have the best shit from Urban Decay from 2015. You're probably supposed to throw that stuff away. Yes. That's mid-cosmetics industry.

Yeah, mid-cosmetics. Yeah, you're a sucker if you're throwing your stuff out. Okay, ladies, what I have for you today is a harrowing tale. It will frighten you. It might even drive you to tears. But it's a very important story and it's important that everyone hears it, especially all the mamas out there. I know. I hate it when people call each other mamas. This story comes from a woman named Katie Sorenson. Katie, as you evidently already know, Brandy, is a mommy blogger.

She runs the blog Motherhood Essentials. Oh, what's... Ever been there? No. Okay. You're going to learn about it. Okay, great. Can't wait.

I love it. When this incident occurred, she was just starting out as an influencer. She'd had the blog for about five months and she had a couple thousand Instagram followers. She was a verified Amazon influencer. What does that mean? She has like an Amazon storefront? Yeah. Okay. All right. Excuse me. Get a little commission. Yeah. Cha-ching, cha-ching. Ba-bling, ba-bling. Okay. She was a big fan of clean beauty. Big fan of Rachel Hollis books. Oh.

Oh. Raise your hand if you've heard the maintenance phase episode of Rachel Hollis. They definitely have, yes. She sold doTERRA essential oils. Oh, boy. In fact, she and her mom actually launched a business where they sold baby bibs with sewn-in essential oil diffuser pads.

So definitely want to get some of those. No. Your baby needs to have essential oils on it? Yeah. Obviously, Casey. Or it'll get autism. That's how it works. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Wow. Okay. On December 7th, 2020, Katie and her four-year-old son and one-year-old daughter had a very scary experience at a Michael's craft store. Mm-hmm. In Petaluma, California. Okay. store in Petaluma, California. Okay.

About 15 minutes after this incident occurred, she reported it to the police. But a few days passed and Katie realized, you know what? I didn't handle that situation correctly. I could have done things differently. And maybe if I share my story publicly, it'll help someone else. Oh, geez. What? Oh, I'm sorry.

Oh, you don't want to learn from other people, you assholes. So that's what she did. On December 13th, 2020, she sat in her car in the parking lot outside her local Target and she told her story. Oh, she made like a little video? She made a little vlog. This was a 20-minute. Holy shit. Oh, 20 minutes.

Too harder. Oh, Lord. That's too long. I agree. She's not a concise storyteller. Are you going to take 20 minutes to tell us? No, I was going to say, I would not watch this video if I saw that it was that long. I just keep on scrolling.

I have taken the liberty of trimming this down considerably. Excellent. But as I tell this story, please picture me as a very cute momfluencer. Blonde, shoulder length hair. Okay. Check. Blue eyes. Check.

Skinny. Bitch, you know it. Also, a trendy yet comfy, modest outfit. Oh, yeah. Kind of effortlessly chic. Yeah, kind of a mom on the go. Matching sets. Don't make fun of what I love most in this world.

Kasey, I'm very into matching sets now. She is very into matching sets. So into a matching set. They're really popular right now. Very trendy, yes. Yeah, they're very popular and easy. Yeah. Well, yeah, because if you're-

Takes the guesswork. Yes. Got to get dressed. I do a fun thing where I just pick out my clothes the night before. Yeah. I just do. I just set them all out. I don't do that.

Really? Well, I mean, what am I going to pick? A jeans and a black shirt? All you have to do is, yeah. Close your eyes, walk into your closet, and grab two things. I will have you know that I wore shorts and a white shirt to the Royals game on Saturday. Who the hell are you? Yeah, right?

Wow. I wore no black. I did not actually see pictures of the shorts, though. And I wore shorts in public. So there's no proof it actually happened. It happened. I'm not making it up. Did you have an emotional support camisole under it?

I did. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah, naturally. Yes. I would also like to say, for the record, that this weird never nude thing she has going on is not hereditary. You know, Kasey doesn't have that. I do not suffer from that.

Kasey's naked right now. Exactly. I'm totally, yes. I shamed Kasey once for sharing a hotel room with me and wearing short shorts. She's like, you're lucky that I'm wearing these at all because it was up to me. I'd be naked. So, Brandi was trying to shame you. I was.

I shamed her. She did. She totally did. I was wearing shorts and they were short but they were pajama shorts. And you're not running around in public so who cares? I did appreciate that she wore shorts. That was rude of me.

You did appreciate? Well now you seem creepy. I did appreciate that she had shorts on rather than Oh I see. Rather than being nude which would have been her preference. I totally misunderstood what you were saying. So every time we've stayed in a hotel room together since, I make sure I have pants and a t-shirt. And then I suffer. So as not to scandalize.

And I wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning on fire. I think what you should do next time is one of those long novelty shirts that has like the outline of someone's baby. Yes. Excuse me. We need to talk more about this trendy outfit. Okay. So it's December. So keep that in mind. So she's got the knitted hat on with one of those fuzzy balls on top. Yeah, I love those. Those are

cute. She's got on a gray t-shirt, black leather jacket, delicate gold necklace. Yeah, cute. Very cute. She's got on a gray T-shirt, black leather jacket, delicate gold necklace. Yeah, cute. Very cute. I'm assuming completely naked from the waist down. I mean, I just bored you picking it. So here is a portion of what Katie said in her very emotional, very long Instagram video.

Here we go. long Instagram video. Here we go. Monday of this week, my children were the targets of attempted kidnap, which is such a weird thing to even vocalize, but it happened. And I want to share the story with you in an effort to raise awareness as to what signs to look for. with you in an effort to raise awareness as to what signs to look for and to just encourage parents to be more aware of their surroundings and what is going on around them. I think right now we are so distracted by everything that is going on in the world that we are kind of have our guards up so much about masks and wanting to keep our children safe. That way we're forgetting the most important way to keep them safe. And that is with us not to have them taken. What?

What? What? Don't forget, you guys. The important thing is not to have your kids taken. Attempted kidnap. Yeah. Why did she say kidnapping? I don't know, but she says it multiple times in this.

Attempted kidnap. It's like, ma'am, have you ever read anything before? So I'm going to share a story in an effort to raise that awareness, but it's, I'm not ready. Oh, this is hard for me. I'm not ready. Ma'am, no one is fucking forcing you. I mean, at this point, this thing happened days ago, right? Yeah.

She is bravely pushing through. Okay. For awareness. That's right. I forgot. That's right. For awareness. Be aware somebody might try to kidnap your kid.

Yeah. I'm highly doub try to kidnap your kid. Yeah. I highly doubt that that's what happened. Yeah. Do you have any predictions, Casey, about who may have tried to kidnap her kid? Well, I'm guessing because she's a white blonde lady, probably somebody of color. Well, that sounds about right, doesn't it? Probably. I mean, I'm guessing that somebody of color just got a little too close to her and she freaked out.

Oh, people are ridiculous. You mean kidnappers are ridiculous. Yeah, that's how we feel on this podcast. The very real kidnapping that she thwarted. Thwarted, yes. She stopped it, yes. I'm not ready to share this story, but I know it's important. And I would rather be uncomfortable and awkward and get the message out sooner than wait until I feel composed.

Because I don't know that I'll ever be composed talking about this. So here we go. On Monday, like I said, my children were the targets of attempted kidnap. Ping. Yeah. Attempted kidnapping

is the appropriate way to say that. Why did you say that? I don't know, but it drives me nuts. I think it's so weird. It is weird. We went to Michael's craft store just to run a few errands. get some things to make some homemade gifts, very quick trip. I've not taken my children out a lot as of late, but this was just a situation where we needed to run this errand.

And I thought I came prepared. I brought the double stroller, thinking I'd just throw them in, cover them up, put the cover on top, and just walk through the store quickly, grab our stuff and go. I only had two items I needed to grab, and then I did a Target pickup, so that was the only time we were getting out of the car. So we get to Michael's. We park as far away as possible in an effort to not inconvenience others with our big stroller. What? What? What? That was always my go-to.

Whenever I brought the double stroller, I'd park far away so that people wouldn't be frustrated with me taking forever getting the stroller in and out. That is the first thing that from this day forward, I'll be doing differently if I ever choose to bring my kids out again. Oh, okay. They're going in a bubble. Okay, so this video goes on, and Katie is in her vehicle, and she noticed a couple who caught her eye, okay?

All right, here we go. I notice a gentleman. All right, here we go. I notice a gentleman. He is parked in the spot, not in front of me, but to the left two spots. He gets out of his car and starts walking toward me. And my thought is, oh, he's just going to offer to help me because I look like I need help or something. He walks toward me, looks for a while, and then just turns around and gets back in his car.

And I was like, huh, that was weird. Maybe he thought he recognized me or something. I don't know. So I get the kids in the stroller, and we go into the store, and they come in. And they walk kind of close behind me. I definitely felt the heebie-jeebies it didn't feel good but I thought I was judging a book by its cover

so these people's crime is that they were parked in the Michael's parking lot and then walked into the store did you miss the part where he came up to her car and then backed away slowly and creepily how close did he come to her car though oh so close.

And with only one thing on his mind. I mean, yeah. Kidnap! Yes. Kidnap! I thought I was judging a book by its cover. They were not, like, kind. That sounds bad. But they weren't

clean-cut individuals. Translation. Oh, my goodness. They weren't white. Yeah, that's sure what that sounds like. So I attributed my discomfort with just judging a book by its cover. She likes to say that, doesn't she? Yeah. That is the second thing that I will change from this experience forward. judging a book by its cover. She likes to say that, doesn't she? That is the second thing that I will change from this experience forward. Oh, she's going to start judging people even harder. She's going to listen to her gut, Casey. Oh, okay. God damn it.

If someone's not a clean-cut individual, she's not going to give them the time of day. Okay. I went directly to the back of the store because one of those items is spray paint, and I noticed they're hanging close by. And I'm like, maybe they need spray paint too. I don't know. But then I hear them talking, and they are describing in detail the characteristics of my children. They're saying blonde hair, blue eyes, maybe one years old, trying to guess ages. And I just kind of ignored it. I'm like, maybe they're going to make a fuss because neither of my children are wearing masks.

Maybe that's the fuss. I continue to get in line, and I notice that they get in line right behind me. And this was a very long line. It wrapped around the store. There were only two clerks checking people out. So I had quite a bit of time in line with them. But it wasn't until we got closer to the cash register that they picked something up. Oh, no. Yeah. How dare they buy something in. Oh, no. Yeah.

How dare they buy something in a store? What'd they pick up? Well, you're about to find out, Brandy. Okay. That I don't think they came in the store that day for that particular item, okay? Okay. Okay, because what they wanted to do, again, was kidnap. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Because Michael's is the best place to do that. Right. Yeah. Get fake flowers. Yeah. Yeah. Because Michael's is the best place to do that. Right. Yeah. Get fake flowers. Yeah. Puff paints. Mm-hmm.

Is that what they're called? Puff paints? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And blonde, blue-eyed children. Yeah.

Approximately one years old. Mm-hmm. I'm being a dick because I hate when people say years after one. Yeah. It's only one year. It's just one year. Yeah, that's the worst thing about this story. No, I'm being a dick and I know I'm being a dick.

But as we were in line, there was a really nice lady in front of me and we were speaking about the kids and I don't know, just life. And I was doing that thing where you kind of nod and smile and act like you're listening, but really your ears are elsewhere listening to what they were saying behind me. And what were they saying? I was going to say, this is really far into this conversation to not know any or this video to not have actually said what's happened yet. Oh, I'm sorry.

Am I boring you too? So far, nothing has happened. Exactly. Nothing has happened yet. So people walked into a store and- Described her children in detail. Okay. Hello.

Were they really, or is that what she wanted to hear? Or maybe her kids are cute and they said, oh, look at that cute kid. People say that about London all the time. And they're always trying to kidnap her. No. They're always after her. She's been almost kidnapped like a thousand times already. Everywhere we go, everybody always talks about how beautiful she is.

Yes. Yeah, that's a compliment. It's not anybody trying to kidnap your kid. Yeah. That sounds like the kind of thing someone says before their kid gets kidnapped. Oh, it's just a compliment. Well, Brady, you're going to have to watch out from that. And this is when I knew without a shadow of a doubt that they were talking about my children for purposes that were not appropriate.

Or not, that didn't sit right. Talking about their eyes, their face, everything. And the thing that disturbed me the most was that the gentleman, sorry, this is really hard. The gentleman said to whoever he was talking to on the phone, the boy will be easier because he's not wearing a mask. So the mom must not really care about him that much what that did not happen nobody said that that's made up i can't tell you why i didn't turn around and say something right then but i didn't even have the courage to shoot a mean look. I was paralyzed, paralyzed with fear. And I almost just discredited what was happening. I couldn't wrap my mind around the fact that this was actually happening. Because it wasn't.

As we get closer to the front of the line, the lady in front of me says, you know what? You have two kids. You go ahead. Mind you, the kids weren't throwing a fit at all. She really wasn't doing it to like she was just being kind and she just said you know I wish people would do more kind things so we check out quickly two items I walk out call David my husband and I said to him if we had a code word we talked about having a code word if we we had a code word, I'd be using it right now. Okay. And he's like, what the heck?

He's like, what are you talking about? And I was like, I think someone was following me in the store and talking about the kids. And he's like, what? What are you talking about? Is she doing that with her face? No. I'm throwing in some extra spice. And as I'm saying this, I feel someone walking right behind me. And I turn around, and sure enough, they are right behind me. They did not buy anything at the store.

They must have put down whatever they'd picked up to pretend to buy and followed me out. They noticed me, noticed them. So they're going to their car. I start walking more quickly. I'm looking at my car, and there's a white van parked exactly right next to my car. Mm-hmm. That van was positioned perfectly right next to my car. Mm-hmm. That van was positioned perfectly right next to my car. Blocked my own car in a way that if people were around,

they wouldn't be able to see what was going on. And I see the van, and my stomach just sinks, and I don't know what to do. Well, if you're really that scared, you go back in the store. She was paralyzed with fear. No, you go back in the fucking store. Paralyzed. If you're really that worried, go back in the store. She was paralyzed with fear. No, you go back in the fucking store. Paralyzed.

If you're really that worried about the people behind you, you wouldn't have left the store in the first place. You two are victim blaming and it is gross. I'm too afraid to change the direction I'm going. I can't explain to you what I was thinking. There was no logic. I was just, I was terrified. So I walked straight to my car, had the stroller next to me, and I didn't lock it. So he just slides barely, barely out of reach. As that's happening, I see that couple walking toward my car.

Yeah, because their car is right there also. And they walk around. not the full perimeter, but half of the car. And they go back and forth around halfway. And they're doing that thing again where they're not looking at me. So I can't make eye contact with them. I'm looking right at them. They won't look at me. And while they're doing that, they're holding hands.

How dare they? Kidnappers always hold hands. Excuse me. I have not told you two bitches how they were holding hands. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. Okay. So the guy, he's got his hand in like a fist. He's clearly got something in that fist. We don't know what. Okay. And the wife or, you know, whoever, she's got her hand just kind of clasped like this. So they're kind of trying to make it look like they're holding hands, but really they are concealing something in his hand. Scared yet? No. Not so.

That just sounds awkward and weird. Like, I'm not scared. The guy could have something in his pocket. That'd be much more likely. There's, I just feel like, many explanations for why they would be holding hands that way. Yeah, a knife. He could have a razor blade. He could have a grenade.

He could have a very small gun, like really small. Oh, it could be a piece of candy to leave the kids away. No way. No. Oh, Lord, yes. Yeah, it could be a piece of candy to leave the kids away. No way. No. Oh, it literally is. Yeah, that's right. I meant like more maybe he has some kind of injury to his hand or something. You are so naive.

I mean, yeah, he could have arthritis. Yeah. There's just all sorts of reasons why people do things that look weird to you. You know, I think it's really sweet that you two want to give people the benefit of the doubt. But after hearing this story, I've decided that's the last time I ever do that ever. Okay, I'm done. Those days are over for me. I'm still curious to hear, like, what the actual –

Yeah, where's the – What happened? So far, nothing. She got scared. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, you two are about to feel terrible when you hear what happens next. far, nothing. She got scared. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, you two are about to feel terrible when you hear what happens next.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, she thwarted a kidnapping, right? So. Yeah. It gets real good here in a minute. Then they turned around and they walked right back to their car.

And they got in and drove away. And there was nobody in the van. And they're walking toward my car, toward my stroller. And I'm saying to Dave, this is happening right now. What do I do? This is happening right now. Do I leave? What do I do?

I'm too afraid to say something to them. I couldn't do it. I don't know why. She's talking up a storm to Dave on the phone. And then as I go to, I decide I'm going to throw Finley. I don't care about the stroller. I'm going to throw Finley in the trunk. I'm going to get in the trunk.

We're going to close this car. We're getting out of here. All the while, I'm so focused on this couple. I'm not paying attention to the van. All right. Okay. It's almost like that's become irrelevant to me because that was kind of speculation in the first place. But I open the trunk and as I'm opening the trunk, you know, it goes boop, boop, boop.

And Finley is next to me. She goes boop, boop, boop. That's the sound of a trunk opening. Opening, uh-huh. And she's mad because it's automatic and slow, right? Yeah, and time is of the essence. Of course. Yeah, these kidnappers are like, right there.

That guy has that piece of candy right there. Freaking Finley. Yeah. What a terrible name. I shouldn't say that. That's rude. Sorry. Any Finleys out there? Weird. Well, don't say that. That's rude. Sorry, Tinny Finley's out there. That's weird.

Well, don't say that. Jesus. Bleep it. Sorry. Please cut that. On the podcast. Yeah, probably not a good idea. That's like Brandy and like.

Absolutely. And Finley is next to me, but there is a hair of a second where I can't see all of my stroller. You know what I mean? And in that hair of a second, first they take two steps forward to the stroller, then two steps back, then two steps forward, then two steps back. A trick. Two steps forward, two steps back a trick to step forward it made no sense it was obvious what they were doing um is it because i'm still not sure what they were doing attempted kidnap

and that last time he reaches for the stroller and by the absolute grace of God, someone is parked just a few spots away, just close enough to see what's going on, but not close enough for the people that are involved. And it's an old man. He must have been like 80 plus years old. And he looks at me and he has his mask on and his eyes get so big, kind of like asking, do you need help? And I just yell, excuse me, can you help me, please? And this woman comes running over and the couple, they drop. Well, they didn't drop anything. They just stop reaching for the stroller and they run, get into their car, drive off. And in that moment, I feel a rush behind me and I turn around and there's a man right

behind me and he kind of plays it off like oh do you need help or something and I just look at him like I'm just paralyzed I can't talk he just gets in the van shuts the door and just drives off quickly you just yelled for help in the parking lot

and she's surprised that somebody had tried to help her? And I drive off and I file a police report. And did the police say this is nothing? And that is the extent of that. I am well aware of how different that could have played out.

And that's what scares me the most, is that despite the fact that I was in tune enough to pay attention to those signs, still there are so many ways that I dropped the ball and was not as prepared as I could have been for that. And so my purpose in sharing this is to simply raise awareness and to encourage you to not only be aware of what's going on around you, because I was aware, but I did not know how to act. I did not practice how to act. I did not practice how to act. I maybe thought in my head before, oh, that's what I would do if I was in that situation. If you don't really have a definite plan of what you will do, you're going to freeze up. In this very real situation.

Yeah. So she perceived a threat. Yeah. Based on So she perceived a threat. Yeah. Based on the appearance of these people. Yeah. Well, they came and, you know, reached for her stroller. Did they? Did they?

I mean, that's what she says. Anybody else see that? I don't know. Do you think Michaels has surveillance footage? I'm guessing they do. I am guessing that some version of this did happen. These people came, got out of the car around the same time she did. Walked into the store about the same time she did.

Tried to take her kids. Got in line about the same time she did. She got in line about the same time she did. And because there is a lot of online fear mongering about human trafficking. Wait, what? Mm-hmm. I've got an essential oil for that. She turned this situation into something it wasn't. Yeah. I mean, this would have been like the height of that, too. It was December of 2020. Yeah. What are you two talking about? What are you referring to? I don't get it. Well, what are you trying to say?

part of this bigger ploy to to make it easier to human traffic right yeah because kids weren't recognizable with masks also i remember how many kids i kidnapped and it was great because like you just put on the mask and you're all set that's right yeah so you know that's the gist of her video she ends it with some tips for parents i can tell you to her assholes and don't want to hear any of those tips. Perhaps if you'd behaved better, I would have given you the tips, but you don't deserve it. So yeah, Katie

bravely shared her story and people really appreciated it. Within about 24 hours, her post had gone viral. Her video was viewed approximately 4.5 million times. Wow. Casey, that's jealousy. I've never had a video be viewed that much. The local news reached out to her and of course she agreed to do an interview because this is an important topic. Casey, if you roll your eyes

again, I swear to Pete. I mean, people get kidnapped all the time and stuff like that doesn't make the news lots of places. Why would this potential kidnapping? It's to raise awareness. We're raising awareness, Casey. Someone doesn't want to be aware, and that's why it's important for us to raise awareness. Okay, sorry. Not that I think you two will give two shits. Sorry.

Mm-hmm. Not that I think you two will give two shits. But you might be pleased to know that Katie got approximately 80,000 new followers on social media. Oh, yeah. That's nice. You know, sometimes good things happen. Yeah. To good people. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. But, you know, people were really interested in this story. You know what? Yeah, they want the police to investigate. Absolutely. What were the police doing about this? Yeah, people were really, like, kidnapping people in the parking lot or trying to kidnap kids. Check it out.

Absolutely. Sure. People are thinking, well, surely Michaels has surveillance footage. Yeah, it's 2020. Let's track these fuckers down. That's right. Get them. Every place has surveillance cameras now.

So... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Turns out the police were well aware of Katie's story. She told it to them right after it happened. She talked to a dispatcher and she'd driven to the station and talked with an officer. The officer thought that Katie's story seemed a little bizarre at the time, but he did look into it. In fact, he looked at the surveillance footage from Michael's

and from the Kohl's next door. Was it a Kohl's with a Sephora in it? We don't know. We have to assume that it was. I'm going to assume it was. I don't think it's safe to assume. Do they all have Sephoras in them? Actually, 2020, probably not. It was a dark time. I don't know when they moved them in there.

Yeah. All right. That's sad. We really ought to raise awareness about Sephora and Kohl's. I was going to say, that's probably the only reason I would go into a Kohl's. I think they were still in JCPenney in 2020. I don't think they've moved to Kohl's yet. Can you use Kohl's cash at the Sephora within the Kohl's? Oh, I don't think so. These are the questions that need to be answered.

Anyway, so he looks at the surveillance footage and what he saw didn't match anything that Katie said. Imagine that. Yeah, shocking. Yes, there was a couple who'd parked near her and gone into Michael's and left it around the same time she did, but they hadn't followed her

and they hadn't actually interacted with her at all. And yeah, there was an elderly man and what appeared to be his caretaker, but they didn't interact with Katie either. They certainly didn't like rescue her. Right. And yes, there was someone who pulled into the parking lot in a van. But again, the driver didn't interact with Katie. Okay.

So initially, police had decided, okay, well, this doesn't warrant further investigation. Right. Literally nothing happened. And it helped that when Katie reported this crime, she told the officer that she didn't want anyone arrested. She just wanted to make the police aware of what happened. As if anything that happened was an arrestable offense.

Yes, I went to Michael's and so did other people. I thought I was at my own personal Michael's. Right. But now Katie had this viral video and people wanted answers. And she'd included details in that video that she hadn't originally shared with the police.

Because she made them up later. Mm-hmm. For example, she never told the police that the man had tried to grab her stroller. She never mentioned the thing about the couple saying that her son would be easier to take because he wasn't masked and therefore not a priority. Nobody said that. That did not happen. But it sure makes the story better.

It sure does. Very intriguing. Chilling, isn't it? Yeah. So on December 14th, the police definitely leans into that panic. Yes, the fear mongering. Yes.. Definitely leans into that. Yeah. That panic. Yes. The fear mongering.

Yes. I believe in QAnon. So I don't know what you should be talking about. You're going to get all sorts of weird listeners now because you actually said it. This is a bonus. Yeah. Exactly. There we go. We can be a little looser on the bonus.

Although I do have a way of making people leave the Patreon. It's because it's important not to make too much money. Yeah. So the police called Katie back into the station, and they had her review some of the surveillance footage. And she ID'd with 100% certainty the couple who had tried to kidnap her children. They looked like just a normal couple out buying Christmas decorations at Michael's, but clearly they were evil kidnappers.

Oh, I thought she said they didn't buy anything. Yeah, well, she left the store, and they must have, like, put whatever... Hey, don't question anything. Police released photos from the surveillance footage and asked the public for help identifying the couple. Oh, my God. It didn't take long before the couple identified themselves. They were Eddie and Sadie Martinez.

And they were so confused. Yeah, I bet they were. Why the hell was their boring ass trip to Michael's on the news? Oh my gosh. Pretty soon word got out about Eddie and Sadie. Eddie was a driver for UPS.

Sadie was a bookkeeper. They had five kids. Sadie was super into arts and crafts. She has a side business where she does balloon arches. Always going to fucking Michael's. Always looking for balloons. Looking for kids. That's right.

Always had kidnap on her mind. My side hustle is human trafficking. I hear you can make a lot of money that way. It is lucrative. How do you think I got this jean jacket? You didn't have to wait to buy yours on the 55% off. That's right. That's right.

How are you always aware of these sales? Oh, my gosh. You know how I found out on this one? How? Caitlin sent me a link. She's got the in. Yeah. So what's Caitlin doing? I don't know how I found out on this one? How? Caitlin sent me a link. She's got the in. Yeah. So what's Caitlin doing?

I don't know how Caitlin gets them. I don't ask questions. She's just your guy. Who you go to for this? She's just my hookup for the discount code. Anytime the mystery sale's on, I'm like, I know Bernie's going to send me that code. They call it a mystery sale? Yeah, it's a mystery sale.

You have to follow a link, and then it tells you what percentage off you get. Yeah, so everybody gets a different one. So 55% was the highest percent. So somehow Caitlin has the hookup for the code that gives you the 55%. Yeah. I'd hate to think of what she had to do for that 55%. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, the one that I got was only 40%. So no thank you. I was like, nothing. Yeah. Well, that's a sad story. I'm glad you told it. To raise awareness. That's right.

They'd been at Michael's that day. Turns out not to kidnap children, but to purchase a baby Jesus for their nativity set. Holy shit. So, that is what was in his hands. They were purchasing babies then. In a way, yeah. I mean, this one would be easy to take because he's so little.

And I don't see his mom around. I don't even know if he has a dad. It had been a very uneventful trip. And now they were finding out that some random woman was accusing them of wanting to steal her kids. Can you fucking imagine? Oh my God, I cannot even imagine. They were probably not even aware of her at all. Exactly.

They probably had no idea, didn't even notice her. I'm sure she looks just like every other suburban white woman, you know? Yeah. her. I'm sure she looks just like every other suburban white woman. You know? Yeah. I mean, so this news came out like maybe a week and a half or two after this trip. Like, how are you

going to remember some random woman you saw in a store two weeks ago or whatever? Yeah. Unless you tried to take her kids. Yeah. If you were really trying to kidnap the kids. What if you were just there for baby Jesus? So Sadie and Eddie went on the defensive.

They went to the police and they told their side of the story and, you know, a ton of their friends vouched for them. They're like, hey, these are good people. These are not kidnappers. And they have the surveillance video that shows. Right. Yeah. But, I mean, it was scary.

Of course. Because they're up against this white woman who has this video that's been viewed but i mean it was scary yeah you know because they're up against this white woman who has this video that's been viewed 4.5 yeah this huge viral story that says like these people are trying to kidnap my kids and yeah sadie later said i'm married to a ups man who's like norm from cheers everybody knows him katie should have probably done a little bit of homework and picked different characters for her story. Oh! It didn't take long for investigators to determine that Katie Sorensen was full of shit. I mean, I knew she was full of shit right away.

I was terrified for her. I was terrified for her. On December 18th, police announced that they'd found no evidence of a crime and the Martinez's were cleared of wrongdoing. Yeah. But Eddie and Sadie, particularly Sadie, was like, wait a second. Yeah, it's not this easy. You can't just accuse us of this and then nothing happens. Yeah, fuck right off.

She said, this woman can't just get away with this. She told a terrible lie about us. And this was racially motivated. Absolutely. 100%. Sadie said, I couldn't believe it. It's like we're literally guilty of being brown while shopping. Yep. Sadie decided to take a stand.

She wasn't going to put up with someone weaponizing their whiteness. So she publicly pushed for the DA to bring charges against Katie. Yeah. Yeah. Good for her. Mm-hmm. She told reporters, I don't know if anyone's been paying attention the last four years, but there's been a lot of racism going on.

And, well, Katie's following suit. Am I shocked? No. But will we stand for it? Hell no. So today I stand in front of everybody in a fight to prosecute Katie. Good for her. Yeah.

Yeah. She wanted Katie to be charged with a hate crime, but she knew that that's a really hard thing to prove. Yeah. Instead, in April of 2021, Katie was charged with three counts of making a false report of a crime she faced a maximum of 18 months in jail wow what do you think pretty sad for katie huh no pretty devastating for katie she was just trying to you know protect her kids no i guess it's a crime to protect your children. It's a crime to make up things about people. Yeah. To file a police report over a non-incident.

Wow. She was just scared. Mm-hmm. She pled not guilty. Okay. And she launched a GoFundMe campaign to pay for her legal fees. And I can see by the looks on both your faces that you did not donate.

We did not. People donate to it? I'm sure lots of... No, really, nobody did. So, okay, she asked for $50,000. How much do you think she made? $7,000. Casey, what do you think?

Maybe like $3,000. $2,000. $2,000. Apparently nobody else believed her either. Yeah. Yeah. Looks pretty bad. But she didn't let that stop her, gang. She just went on through.

She wanted those charges to be dismissed, you know? Can't we all just forget about this? No. Remember that time when i accused people of color of trying to kidnap my kids haha we all had a good laugh didn't we well now i'm a professional mommy blogger oh my gosh no there are consequences for this you need some lavender essential oil. I can tell you that right now. That'll clear up that bad attitude you have.

See, she didn't just say something on the internet. She went to the police station. She did real world actions. And she accused specific people. So there are consequences for that. It's not just shouting into the void on the Internet. You know, this is real people that you did this thing to. So you have to pay for it. Yeah. You can't just say whatever you want about whoever you want. That's that's very rude of you to say to her.

So Katie hired an attorney and they tried to make the argument to a judge that this should be dismissed. There's this thing you can do when you're charged with misdemeanors where you can get a court approved diversion. And basically after two years of doing what the judge has asked of you, your charges get dismissed. Right. But the thing is, generally speaking, in order to get diversion, you have to take responsibility. Right. Yeah, you do. That's to get diversion, you have to take responsibility. Right. Yeah, you do. That's tricky. And Katie had no interest in that.

She didn't do anything wrong. She was sticking to her version. She was terrified for her kids. Let's see. Okay. So she applies for diversion and the judge was like, no. No. She applied again because maybe the judge didn't hear her the first time.

And the judge again was like, no, you haven't taken any responsibility. No. No. She applied again because maybe the judge didn't hear her the first time. And the judge again was like, no, you haven't taken any responsibility. No. No. So after plenty of delays, Katie's trial took place in April of 2023. It's a fresh one. It's real fresh. It's real fresh. It's real fresh.

You're all steamed up. I'm not. You're feeling that steam heat? Do you want to take your jacket off? not, but that's a thing. You feeling that steam heat? Do you want to take your jacket off? No, because it's so cute. Do you want to turn the fan on? And also, you're so obsessed with me. I can just tell.

But if I took this jacket off, you'd have all kinds of feelings. And emotions. Urges, perhaps. Urges. I don't want to upend your whole life, Brandy. At trial, the prosecution contended that Katie made up this story about Eddie and Sadie because she wanted to boost her profile as an influencer. Correct. In her viral video, Katie was well-dressed, she was well-groomed, and she shared tips for parents on how to avoid a kidnap.

Which is, that's just me being an ass. She lied to police to help her career. Yeah, so that was one of the things they brought up was like, she was like perfectly coiffed for this video. I don't know. Do you think that she was really like dressed like that when she ran these errands? Well, no, because this is, like, a couple days later. Yeah. That's after she had the...

She wasn't ready to do the video? That's right. No, but the argument is that she put herself together... She did. ...to fly this video. So it wasn't just, like, a regular reaction video where something happened and she had to... Yeah. ...to get it off her chest right away.

No, she, like she did this days later. She thought about exactly what she was going to say. Yeah, I think it was all very calculated. Yeah, I do too. Including so much of the, like, I even think the woman in line who was so kind to her and said, I wish more people were kind. I think a lot of this, it's like. Yeah, that's superfluous to the story. It plays no.

Oh, disagree. I think one day when you're telling this on the Christian circuit. Okay. There are angels. Yeah. And like there are people who thank God for this person. Thank God for this person. And like there's all these different things.

Okay. I did think about it that way. Well, that's because you haven't spent two whole days thinking about it. I mean, Katie Sorts. I also loved her like I didn't do it right. I made so many

mistakes, but by the grace of God, a kidnap was prevented. But Katie's defense attorney argued that Katie had simply misunderstood what was happening. There were a lot of people in the parking lot. It can be really easy to misinterpret things. She was very anxious due to the COVID pandemic. Okay, so it's believable that she would misinterpret

what happened. Could have happened to anybody. He said she was wrong. She just didn't know it at the time. But she's still not admitted to being wrong that she did anything wrong. She's admitting it here at trial.

Hey, I was wrong. Oh my gosh, I was wrong. Oops, my bad. Oh my. Let's let bygones be bygones. Everybody's fine. Nobody's nerfed it. Nobody really got hurt here, did they? Right.

So you did a racist thing. I'm an actor. so you did a racist thing yeah she got scared she called the police and from there it is the police's job to investigate so what crime has happened i mean she's wasting resources she made false accusations yeah she she lied to boost her career. Yeah. This is fully made up. Absolutely. By this point the prosecution

had done quite a bit of digging into Katie's online presence. Oh boy. What are we going to learn? Well, nothing because you two are like

I don't know bloodhounds or something. They'd figured out that in addition to all the traditional mommy blogger shit, making freezer meals, cutesy crash, she was also super into QAnon conspiracies. Right.

Yeah. Save the children. Yep. Pedophiles are everywhere. Everywhere. Everyone's getting kidnapped. The Dems are raping kids. That's right.

That's right. I think they're drinking blood, too. Thating kids. That's right. That's right. I think they're drinking blood, too. That's correct, Casey. That's true. That's true. Why can't they have Gatorade? They just can't have Gatorade. They've got to have children's blood.

Gosh. Yeah, so this story she'd cooked up was kind of perfect for her audience. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So worth noting, Katie's obsession with QAnon came up a lot in the prosecution's filings before trial, but the prosecutor opted not to touch that shit at trial. Yeah, that's probably a good choice. Instead, they focused on the difference between what

actually happened that day and what Katie said happened. They called the original officer who spoke to Katie on December 7th. They went over what she'd said to the dispatcher that day. They went over her follow-up meeting with police on December 14th. In that interview, which took place after she posted the videos, she was much more confident that an attempted kidnap had occurred. She looked at the surveillance footage and told the officer, I'm 100% sure that's them. 100%. They reached for my children. Stroller, 100%. They were saying things they shouldn't have been saying about my kids. Okay. The prosecution showed the jury surveillance

footage from the parking lot. Where none of that happened. So the footage showed, get ready to be scandalized. The footage showed that the Martinez's parked about two cars away from Katie and they got out of their car and entered the store. And three minutes later, so did she. So they didn't even follow her in. She went in after them? Holy shit. Oh my goodness.

Follow her in. She went in after them? Holy shit. Oh, my goodness. Two minutes later, a man in a white van pulled into a spot a couple cars away from Katie's. He walked into Michael's, and that was about two minutes after Katie had walked in. Footage from- About five minutes after the Martinez's, because I'm good at math. And it's all planned out perfectly.

Because they're all in it. This is a big operation. That's right. I mean, have you seen these claims of like this stuff like circulating on Facebook? No, I don't have the same Facebook friends that you do. I should get shared

all over Facebook like I was at Walmart this evening and I had my child in the cart when I noticed there were three men of unknown ethnicity circulating throughout the store all on cell phones. Oh, my God. Watching us every step of the way. Mm-hmm. It's ridiculous. The weirdest thing is that all three men

were also drinking blood. And no one said shit to them. Have you seen shit like that get shared on Facebook? Who the fuck am I friends with on Facebook? I don't know. That does not show up in my Facebook feed. Seriously? I think so. No, that is nuts.

Now, I knew that the QAnon people were real anti-pedophile, which, I mean, I have things in common with folks, turns out. Yeah, we're all anti-pedophile. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. I am not pro-inventing pedophiles, though, and I think that's where we diverge. Actual pedophiles?

Yes. Yes. Yes. We are all anti-actual pedophile. Exactly. Actual pedophiles. Yes. Yes. Yes. We are all anti-actual pedophile. Yeah. Footage from inside the store showed that Eddie and Sadie had stood near Katie and her children in line. How dare they? That was all they did.

Yeah. There was truly nothing to see. Yeah. Eddie and Sadie both took the stand. Okay. I loveddie's testimony so eddie testified you know he describes this like very normal trip to michael's he said he went in with sadie and he was hungry and he wanted to leave to go have lunch at this chinese place that he liked it was kind of nearby that's kind of why he went. Yeah. Then he found out that the Chinese place was closed. So he was kind of pissed.

Yeah. What a waste of a trip. So if at some point he seemed angry, it was just because. He wanted Chinese food and he wasn't getting it. That is literally the whole story. If that, if being upset about not getting Chinese food is wrong, then I don't want to be right. Like, at no point did this man describe that he was children. He was literally just like out with his wife at the craft store thinking, oh, the Chinese place is right over here.

Yeah. store thinking, oh, the Chinese place is right over here. Eddie and Sadie both testified that they'd never met Katie before December 7th. I feel like I don't even need to say all this part. Obviously, they had no desire to kidnap anybody. They had five kids. They didn't need any more. They were maybe hoping somebody would take their hands for a little while. There wasn't much for the defense to cross-examine because, I mean, what are you going to say?

Yeah, exactly. And what do you typically order at this joint? Chinese restaurant! The prosecution probably wanted to also call the old man and the caretaker, but those two people had never been located. They'd never come forward. And again, they hadn't done anything, so there's really nothing to talk about. The prosecution called Ed Crosby, an investigator for the police department who provided more insight on the prosecution's theory that Katie had done this to boost her social media profile. theory that Katie had done this to boost her social media profile.

Ed testified that Katie had launched her blog, Motherhood Essentials, on July 28, 2020, less than five months before she made her videos about Michaels. He showed a photo that Katie had posted of herself outside a theater carrying a sign that called for the end of human trafficking. Yep. Oh, geez. What are you two pro human trafficking? No, but it's not what she says it is. This isn't how it's happening.

This is not how it's happening. This is. Yeah, this is all QAnon. Yeah. Human trafficking is very real. There are lots of people in America in human trafficking situations. This is not how it happens. This is not how it happens. This is not how it happens. Most of the people in human trafficking in America are migrant workers.

And a lot of people who are human trafficked are trafficked by people they know. Yeah, exactly. Also by people who they have followed into a Michael's. Followed into a Michael's. Right? That's how these things work. Yeah. And then they do the one, two step outside your car for a minute or two. Yeah, that's real weird. I can't.

I mean, I can imagine if that's what they really did, that that would look weird. But I don't think they did that. They literally didn't do that. Yeah, I know. They didn't. They didn't do that. I mean, I could see it being weird if somebody was walking towards you, walking back, walking towards you. Yeah, that would be weird.

It would be weird, yeah. It didn't happen. It really didn't happen. And there's proof in the surveillance video that it didn't happen that way. Yeah. Yeah, and stories like this are really harmful to actual human trafficking. Yes, they are. Yeah.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It causes a lot of damage. I read this whole article. I mean, it's been years ago, so I'm going to remember one fact from it about this woman who was like, who was trafficked as a child by her father. Yeah.

And she's like, human trafficking is not what people say it is. It's not this QAnon thing. trafficking is not what people say it is. It's not this QAnon thing. I have seen a dateline about human trafficking and this girl, she was a high school student. She was being trafficked by her boyfriend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's... It's oftentimes by people that they know. Yeah. Ugh. It's just gross. Why does your face look like that? It's just a really sad issue. It is.

It is. It's awful. It is. I'm making up these fake stories. of there are so many elements of her story, her fake story that you kind of want to identify with of like, OK, you know, because it's funny when the story first came out, there were a lot of people who I hate to say victim blaming because she's obviously not a victim. Right. Right.

We're like, well, what that happened to you and you didn't, you know, do this or do that? Right. And she came out and was like, you know what? I was in a situation that I thought I knew how I would act, but I didn't know, and it just goes. And there's a part of me that, like, appreciates that so much. Yeah, absolutely. And then it turns out it's all bullshit. It's all bullshit.

It's got to be bullshit. Yes. I'll never believe another woman again, I say. Oh, Lord. Oh, Lord. We've gone off the rails. We've gone clear on the other side. I've got some theories I want to share with you ladies today.

How are there so many mattress stores? Yes! That is how they would get me. with you ladies today. How are there so many mattress stores? That is how they would get me. Because I do wonder how the hell there are so many mattress stores. They're everywhere and there's never anybody in them. There's no one in them ever. And when was the last time you bought a fucking new mattress? I mean, I did buy one a couple years ago,

but I bought it off the internet. You did not go to a mattress store. You did not go to a mattress store. I did not go to a mattress store. I buy a new one every week just to get mattress stores in business. I have a gift for you all now. Oh, okay. It's that Katie took the stand in her own defense. Oh, man.

What did she say? Has this lady learned nothing? Yes. Yes, that's correct. That is correct. And I wish I'd seen a video of this because I bet this was like the most delicious moment that's ever happened. So she took the stand and she tried to introduce herself first as a mother. And then someone had to be like, we're looking for your legal name.

Oh, my God. First of all, I'm a mother. And a momfluencer. have to be like, we're looking for your legal name. Oh, my God. First of all, I'm a mother and a momfluencer. I am a mother, a wife, and a Christian. We're not making fun of religion, by the way, just in case anybody has it. Yes. No. Fly up their butt hole. Or a bee up their bonnet, just in case anybody has it. Yes. No. Fly up their bonnet.

Or a bee up their bonnet. Whatever you want to call it. Nat in your vagina. I don't know. Either way. We could go on for days. Yes. In fact, we will.

Katie often spoke directly to the jury. She said that the COVID pandemic had made her feel apprehensive and uneasy. She said that she was very worried for her children, particularly for her son who has autism. She said that she filmed those videos not to boost her social media profile, but because she felt so guilty about not handling the situation the right way. Okay. She said, I felt I had dropped the ball and protecting my kids. No. OK. She said that when she made that report to the police, her intent was to, quote, report behavior that I felt was suspicious. But given the gift of time and evidence, she now realizes that her children were never in danger. She she realizes that now. That's realizes that her children were never in danger. She realizes that now.

That's good that she admits that. I mean, she kind of has to, right? Because it was an honest mistake, yes. No. It was an honest mistake. She for sure didn't do this intentionally. Yeah, so she's just trying to play it up like, oh, I freaked myself out and got scared. Not that this whole thing was just completely made up.

Because that's legal. I mean, if you get scared and you say something dumb to the cops, I mean, that's not a crime. That's not a crime. Now, if you fully make something up, right. That is a crime. And that's what she did here.

So I... She said, and I quote, my opinion is that I misinterpreted the events that day. OK. On cross-examination, Deputy District Attorney Robert Weiner got her talking about the feelings. Robert Weiner? Weiner. W-A-N-E-R.

I saw both of your faces. I thought you said it like with kind of an accent. Is he not? your faces. I thought you said it like with kind of an accent. She's eating a whole table. My house is never going to be the same. No, you two, you look like Donnie and Kit when I say the word treat. You two both were like

I thought you were saying wiener with kind of a southern accent. I'm very sorry ladies. I've got no wiener with kind of a southern accent. I'm very sorry, ladies. I've got no wieners for you tonight. You'll have to look elsewhere. All right. Anyway, this wiener fella started talking about her feelings of apprehension and unease. And he said, no records show that you had any history of panic attacks or anxiety, which is inconvenient for her whole argument.

He asked her about a TV interview that she did after her videos went viral. Katie said that she'd only done that interview not to gain more fame. No, no. No, no. No, no. Of course not. Just to spread awareness. Actually, Brandy, it was to make the TV station go away.

Okay. Yeah, they were all over. Oh, my gosh. Leave me alone. Okay, fine. Fine, I'll do the interview. My God. Truth is, she wanted to escape the attention.

She's just like me. She doesn't want any more attention. Uh-huh. She just popped her tits out for the world to see. My gosh. Uh-huh. I thought she just popped her tits out for the world to see. Oh, you wish. My gosh. What a fantasy.

In closing arguments, the prosecutor argued that Katie should be held accountable for what she did. Yes. He said that no reasonable person

would find themselves in that situation, which, by the way, was like nothing. A nothing situation. Nothing happened. And come to the conclusion that, oh, my God, they were trying to take my kids.

My kids were nearly kidnapped. Kidnapped. Oh, that's right. Kidnapped. The defense argued that the prosecution hadn't proven that Katie knew she was wrong when she talked to the police. He asked the jurors to ask themselves whether they thought Katie believed her children were in danger that day. He said, if the answer to that is yes, you must find her not guilty. The jury of eight men and four women deliberated for five hours.

What they decide. I'm about to tell you, ma'am. They found her not guilty on the first two counts. Oh, is that my phone? No, it's mine. Ma'am. You badass. Sorry. What are you doing?

Who's texting you? Who's sexting you? Lisa. She wants the blood pressure machine. Oh. That's a pretty exciting text. Really important information. Cool, cool, cool.

Anyway, I'm just getting down to the verdict here. Oh, yeah. Please. This is kind of a critical moment in the podcast, Casey. I didn't choose to text message myself right now. Do you know how to put your phone in do not disturb mode? Okay, I'm sorry. Casey goes to movie theaters.

Her phone's just going off the whole time. It's in my purse at the movie theater. They found her not guilty on the first two counts, but guilty for lying to police during her December 14th interview. Okay. So lying to the dispatcher, lying to that first police officer, I think they felt like there was – she expressed enough doubt there. Yeah. That they kind of gave her she expressed enough doubt there. Yeah. That they kind of gave her the benefit of the doubt. She faces a maximum of six months in jail and she'll be sentenced next month.

So stay tuned. Yeah, I think I think that if she's really like a QAnon believer, that there is a possibility that she believed that this was real for a second and then played that up to then grow her audience. Okay, so that's possible. I mean, it still doesn't fit the reasonable person. No, no, not at all. It's not reasonable at all. Okay, so that's possible. I mean, it still doesn't fit the reasonable person's standards. No, no, not at all. It's not reasonable at all. But I mean, the fact that this couple literally didn't say any of those things. Never interacted with her in any way.

I literally think she saw a Hispanic couple and she's like, uh-huh. Yeah. And they parked kind of close to her. Yeah, it's very possible yeah I would like to end with a quote from Sadie she said jail won't fix the systems that allow the Katie's of the world to do these things in the first place she's just a little piece of a big puzzle yes absolutely true. And that is the story of an attempted kidnap. Puh. Oh my gosh.

Thanks, I hated it. Yeah. Oh, you got a real light one, do you? No, not so much. What the fuck is happening now? It's the computer noise. My computer went to sleep and now it's awake. Everyone, Casey's computer has some virus because of all the weird stuff

she looks at online. She looks at weird porn. Constantly. I guess too much porn will do that to you. Brandy, what's the weird porn? Do you want to describe it? What's weird is that she's really into balloons, balloons, balloons.

Kind of ruined it when she saw her sister on the side. I really put a damper on that fetish. I need a new fetish. But how do you get a new fetish? I mean, right. You like what you like. Exactly. I just hope to never see Brandi on there again.

Okay, ladies. To start off, most of this, it comes from an episode of Dateline titled A Walk in the Rain. Who was our correspondent? Josh Mankiewicz. Oh, friend of the show. Yes. Now that we're best friends now. So Josh Mankiewiczicz I didn't really know this

but James is the one who told me all this James is my husband he is the grandson of um hold the fucking phone James is not the one

who told you this oh maybe you told me this I fucking told you this you did? I don't remember that oh my god anyway yeah I told James too

and I blew James' mind with it oh maybe that's what happened okay anyway continue with your false narrative. Let's hear it. So Josh Mankiewicz, he's the grandson of the famous screenwriter Herman Mankiewicz,

who wrote Citizen Kane. Yeah. Oh, shit! Like, the best movie of all time. And his brother is the Turner Classic movies guy! Yes, his brother is Ben Mankiewicz! Ben Mankiewicz! Who does all the movies in Turner Classic Movies guy! Yes, his brother is Ben Mankiewicz! Who does all the movies!

And Turner Classic Movies! Holy shit! No, that's crazy! I've been watching Turner Classic Movies forever, and I've known who Josh Mankiewicz was forever. I had no idea that they were related. I had no idea Josh and Ben were brothers! That is so cool that James told you that.

Yes, I know. Anyway, get the fuck out of here! Randy, are you getting all this? I bet your mind's pretty blown, too. This is the first time I'm hearing this. Okay, so then I also found a really good article by Robin Barefield on Medium.com. I did not put the title of the... That's okay.

I definitely wrote it later in my notes. Anyway, she did a great job. Most of this is me just paraphrasing her article and Josh from Dateline. So, I'm not a writer. So, any mistakes or clunkiness are on me. Nobody else.

You don't need a disclaimer. You're doing great. Okay. We don't know that she's doing great. You have no idea. She might have pure shit ahead. Alright. Picture it have pure shit ahead. All right. Picture it. Yes! Alaska. Land of the midnight sun.

Ooh. Yeah. Have we covered this? I don't know that we've done any Alaska cases. This is very exciting. So from mid-April to mid-August, there are places in Alaska where the sun doesn't even really set. Like, it gets dim. Like dusk? Like dusk, but the sun never goes down.

So if you're north of the Arctic Circle, from those periods of time, the sun doesn't set. And then in the winter, the sun doesn't come out. It's the opposite. It's just dark for fucking ever. That sounds terrible. Okay, so Nome, Alaska sits about 150 miles south of the Arctic Circle.

So the sun does go down there, but it's closer to... How much of this is going to be a geography lesson? Just this first paragraph, and then we're done. That is so rude. I know it is. She loves geography. I love geography. She loves geography.

I do. So yes, you're going to get the geography and the population demographics. You just sit tight. I'll power through. We'll get through it. Okay? Will you? Will you? Will you?

It seems like you're going to be an asshole. It sounds... Yes. It is so hot in here. Thank you. Finally admitting it. It is very warm.

I was not hot before I am hot now. I wasn't hot when you said either, but I am also hot now. Brandi, can you reach that? I don't think so. I don't know.

Let's see. This is your moment. A new beginning. Woo! All right! Okay, is that going to be like... Is that too much? Do I have to try and reach again? Because I already celebrated.

Can you do it again? Pull something. I might. Oh, oh. Okay, very good. Okay, awesome. Good thing you had your emotional support, Cammie. It's a good thing I brought my Stretch Armstrong arms today. Don't look embarrassed at me, awesome. Good thing you had your emotional support, Cammie. It's a good thing I brought my Stretch Armstrong arms today.

Don't look embarrassed at me, Kristen. So stupid. See, I only make really good jokes, so I'm embarrassed when you say something dumb. Okay, so back to our geography lesson. Nome sits on the Norton Sound on the Bering Sea and is closer to Russia than the rest of the U.S. I can see Russia from my house. I mean, you could probably. Gnome is most famous for being gold rush.

Really small and having a hat. Yeah, you say only hilarious jokes on the podcast. Yeah, you say only hilarious jokes on the podcast. It is the most famous gold rush town in Alaska. Oh. So in the early 90s, people flocked there from all over the world. And it's also famous for being the place where the Iditarod ends. And there's that song about it.

Gnome, if you want to. Oh, my God. That was terrible. That was awful. Oh, no. Casey, this is going to be like when Norm was on and we just harassed him the whole time. The whole time. Yes, I remember that episode.

Oh, no. Okay, so back to the story. All you've said is like the name of a town. You've gone off the rails. Shit. Okay. I'm reining it back in. Me too. So approximately 3,800 people live in Nome.

Okay. That's very small. Yeah. That's a small town. But that is the big city in Alaska. Wow. Yeah. So, Nome is actually the 15th largest city in Alaska.

But it's still only the 15th largest city has 3,800 people. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's really, really smallth largest city has 3,800 people. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really, really small. Yeah. Not a real densely populated area. Yes, exactly. But I think it feels really big to the gnome.

Yeah. It is home of the gnomes. Okay. You guys are going to have a hard time. I'm very sorry. How are you? Okay. Sonia Dora Ivanoff was born on April 13th, 1984.

She's the fourth of six children, and she was from the small village of Unakleet. Or no, Unalakleet. I knew I was going to say it wrong. That's okay. Unakleet. Brandy always messes up pronunciations. Not me, though. Unalakleet. I knew I was going to say it wrong. That's okay. Unalakleet. Brandy always messes up pronunciations. Not me, though. Unalakleet, which is about 150 miles southeast of Nome, and the population there is about 700 people.

Oh, wow. Most of the residents of Unalakleet are native Alaskans, including Sonia and her family. She was a bright spark in such a small town and everyone knew who she was. Hell, half the town was family. I was going to say. 700 people. Yeah.

And yeah, so, you know, it's the Dateline story. She lit up a room. Everybody loved her. She's popular. But I mean, it seems to really be true. They have tons of photos and she's beautiful. Yeah. She's a star on our high school basketball

team. She's 5'11". So she was tall and like in a little town. Then she was also an honor roll student. She was also extremely proud of her heritage. Very proud of being a native Alaskan. She even

entered into the Arctic Native Brotherhood pageant in hopes of winning some scholarship money. So it's not a traditional beauty pageant where they go and they talk about they put on their native clothing.

Sounds like it's not degrading in any way. That's a shame. At least it didn't look like it. They present things that they made so she made a pair of mittens out of, like, fur. Oh, that's cool. So, like, they have skills and stuff. Yeah. And so, like, it's, it just looked really cool.

It's a pageant, but not like a beauty pageant. It's a pageant, but not like a beauty pageant. Yeah. Yeah. So, opportunities were really slim in Unalakleet. Only 700 people. There's only so much you could do there. So Sonia and her best friend, Timmery, moved to Nome for better opportunities after high school.

What? Okay. So she's your age. She's my age. Yes. So that's kind of one of the things that really resonated with me too. So it's 2003 when she moves to Nome. And so she graduated the same year I did in 2002. So they moved there for job prospects. And Sonia's got like a whole plan. She knows what she wants to do. This is just the stepping stone of what she wants for her life. She wanted to go somewhere warm and go to college. And moving to Nome was a way to save up money and, you know, work at a job so she could start this process, take some classes and stuff, but she really

ultimately wanted to move to Hawaii. Oh, okay. Yeah, I want to move to Hawaii too. Not going to happen. Don't you dare move to Hawaii. I'm not moving to Hawaii. All right. So,

she got a job at the admission desk at a local hospital, and then she and Timree shared an apartment. Neither one of them had a car, so they walked everywhere. And Nome isn't huge. I was going to say, is that common in that area? I don't know if it's common. It's fucking cold.

It's cold. That would be the thing that would bother me. It's like, can you walk everywhere in the winter in Nome? I don't know. But they didn't have any concerns about it. They felt safe walking around. What do people do after they're done with their dog sleds at the end of the Iditarod?

I guess they just leave them on the side of the road. And then you can just hitch one of those to work, maybe? I don't think that's a real thing. No, it's not. But Nome was such a small place and they weren't worried about it. They didn't have anything to worry about, right? Yeah, nothing bad happens. Nothing bad happens to people. worried about it. They didn't have anything to worry about, right? Yeah, nothing bad happens.

Nothing bad happens to people. I sense it. On the night of August 10th, 2003, Sonia and Timoree went over to a friend's house. They played some board games. They hung out. Do you know what board games they played? I don't.

They didn't say. Very disappointing. I'm sorry. You know, they're young kids. They did a little bit of drinking, but Sonia only had one beer. Timoree didn't have anything because she had to get up and go to work. So, like, they're young kids. They did a little bit of drinking, but Sonia only had one beer. Timree didn't have anything because she had to get up and go to work. So, like, they're not drunk.

Yeah. Not that it even matters if they were. Yes. Yeah. So they're just having fun with friends. Yeah. Timree had to be at work early the next morning, so she decided to go ahead and just crash at her other friend's house because it was closer and she really needed to get to sleep because she had to be up in like four hours. So Sonia didn't have to go back to work until Tuesday.

So she's like, I'm going to stay up. I'm going to have fun. She's like, you know what? It's starting to mist outside. And, you know, I really like the rain. She like had a special relationship with it. She loved to go for walks in the rain. Oh, OK.

So it's not actually raining. It's just misting. So it's like the perfect weather to do that. Yeah, yeah. And it's August, so it's nice outside. And it's like midnight, and the sun has just gone down. Yeah, it's not, okay. So it's not even really hardly dark, you know.

So at around 1 a.m., they split up, and she headed home on foot. And then Timree went to her other friend's house. Timree came home around 5 a.m. to get ready for work and she was surprised she didn't see Sonia anywhere in their apartment. And she thought that was strange because, you know, Sonia left to walk home. Yeah. But she's like, okay, well, maybe on the way home she ran into somebody, decided to go to somebody else's house.

It's no big deal. She'll be home later. Yeah. But she didn't hear from her all day. Usually when something like that happens and they don't connect again before they've been home, Sonia will call her at work. This is before texting was really popular. This is really before texting. Yeah.

This is before neither of these girls have cell phones because, you know, they're saving all their money. So it's just not common. So they, like, when she called her at work, she had to call on her work phone. Like, she calls her on a landline. So she, Timree does some calling around. She's like, this is weird. I haven't heard from her yet. You know, I'll call some of my other friends and stuff and see if anybody's seen her.

But nobody had. So Timree gets home from work, and she can tell Sonia has still not been there. Wow. So, like, she says she specifically knows because Sonia's makeup bag was not touched, and Sonia didn't go places without

looking nice. I don't know anybody like that. Some people don't even get in bed without a full face of makeup. Isn't that right, Brandi? And she does her hair and she likes to look nice. So she's like, there's no way that she went out or went to work

with no makeup on. That's just not going to happen. Timree goes to sleep, wakes up in the morning, and Sonia has still not come home. So now it's Tuesday morning. She hasn't seen her since 1 o'clock, basically Monday night. And hasn't spoken to her at all. And hasn't spoken to her at all.

And nobody that she has called has seen her. Okay. So she's getting very, very concerned. So she called the police. And she actually asked if it's possible that Sonia was in lockup there. Like she had gotten out, been picked up, taken into custody. You know, maybe she's in jail. You know, she's not at the hospital because she checked that.

I mean, she worked at the hospital. So she's not there. So, but they said, no, no, there's nobody here by that name. So she didn't really know what to do. And she decided on Tuesday after getting off work, she was going to file a missing person's report. So she goes to the police station, but she's not excited about it. The Nome Police Department is predominantly white and have a history of not really taking serious complaints and crimes against the Alaska Natives.

But she didn't know what else to do at this point. So she did report Sonia missing to an officer there and just kind of was given the... Like the run around, the brush off. Yeah. She's probably just out partying somewhere. She'll turn up eventually. It'll be fine. Hate that.

Don't worry about it. Yeah. So meanwhile, Sonia's older sister, Christina, and her husband, Tom, they live in Nome also. And they have now found out that Sonia didn't show up for work on Tuesday. And they're very concerned because that's just not like her. So they're driving around the streets looking for her and trying to think of who she might be with if she's not home. And they settle on this guy whose name was Kunik. He and Sonia were friends,

but they knew that Kunik was interested in more and Sonia was not. So Tom went to the police station because they couldn't find Kunik. He wasn't at home. But he thought, I guess something that's really common up here is going out hunting and staying in these hunting camps.

Oh, okay. So he went to the police to see if they happened to know where his camp was. What's really common up here is going out hunting and staying in these hunting camps. Oh, OK. So he went to the police to see if they happened to know where his camp was so that they could try to contact him. But the police are just like, don't worry about it. She's going to show up. There's no reason to get involved in this. Oh, great. Oh, cool. That feels awesome.

That's nice. If we don't care, why should you? Right. Exactly. Awesome. That's nice. If we don't care, why should you? Right.

Exactly. So Sonia's boss at the hospital finally called the police to report that Sonia had not showed up for work. And the police department at this point have now been – it's been reported that she's missing like three times now. So they're actually finally going to start doing something. So on Wednesday, they sent an officer out to speak to Timmery. thing. So on Wednesday, they send an officer out to speak to Timmery. His name is Byron Redburn, and he asks lots of

leading questions about, like, Sonia's mental health, and how she and her roommate got along, you know, how she and Timmery got... Maybe they got into a big fight. She's had depression, you know, so she just wandered off. He records the conversation, and they did play it on the He's had depression. Yeah. She just wandered off. Yeah. Yeah.

He records the conversation and they did play it on the Dateland episode. And you can hear like how scared she is. And she's like, this is just not like her. Yeah. She would have come home. And you could just hear in his voice that he's just like, eh. Not taking it seriously. Another missing girl. Yeah.

So just. That's so awful. Yeah. So just there was definitely not any sort of urgency whatsoever in their response to this missing person. She's a missing 19-year-old girl, and there's only 3,200 people in town. Yeah. Right. What else do they have to do? Exactly. Assholes.

Yes. So on Wednesday evening, now they've had the three reports filed. They've gone out to talk to the best friend. The chief of police gets involved and he brings in the local fire department for search and rescue. Okay. I was like, what the fuck's the fire department doing? So because this is so small and they have a volunteer fire department, the fire department is also in charge of rescue. And so they send out boats because it's on the ocean.

Yeah. And then also send people to start canvassing areas outside of town. And around 830 on Wednesday night, a volunteer firefighter noticed fresh tire tracks down a rarely used road. I mean, I think that is incredible that this guy spotted. No shit. Yeah. That he could tell that this road did not normally get traveled down and that there somebody had been out and recently so instead of going down

the road it's a community of a lot of hunters that kind of makes sense that you'd be paying yeah you would you would notice things like that more so than like i yeah and all the roads it looks like in these videos are all like mud and dirt and gravel. So like they definitely show traffic. Yeah. Yeah. He immediately went to the police station to report it. And then an officer accompanied him back to the scene with bags and cameras and other equipment to document like anything that might be down there. Okay.

So this road was to an old gold mine. And there along a trail right next to the mine, they found the body of Sonia Ivanov. She was completely naked except for one sock. And she had a gunshot wound to the back of her head. Oh, God. Friends and family were immediately notified and they were shocked. Yeah. Like, that's not possible.

Right. Who would hurt her? Everybody loved her. She had so many friends. You know, she got along with everybody. She's not the type of person to have an enemy. Right. So how did she disappear and then get shot in the back of the head?

The police department did open the murder investigation. Not a moment too soon. Yeah, no kidding. But it was clear from the beginning that this case was just too much for them to handle. So they called in? Yes. Oh, good. They do call in the Alaska Bureau of Investigation to help with the case.

Is that similar to the Alaska Bureau of Investigation? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What'd she say? I don't know. Alaska. See, Casey, you did this because you said she was right about sign-out. That's right. Yeah, my head's huge right now.

Exactly. Say something terrible about her so that she gets cut down to size. What should we say? I'm really, really bad about being put on the spot and thinking of things. Yeah, no. I'm terrible at that. Yeah, you probably couldn't think of anything bad to say about me anyway because I'm so wonderful. And I control how often you see London.

I mean, that is true. And there's the threat. Yeah. She's like, I've given her some time. Yes. I feel like maybe Kristen will jump in with something. So then the threat's cut. That's right.

All right, all right. Okay, so this is the part of the Dateline episode where they imbue the investigator. Your undercarriage smells like a fine cheese. That's disgusting. That's me cutting you down to size. So rude. That's me cutting you down to size. So rude.

And not even true thanks to our new sponsorship from Lumi. Yeah, that's true. I do like that Lumi stuff. I love it. No cheese here. See, this was just me doing a free ad for Lumi. That's right. They didn't even pay for this. Okay, so they bring in the investigator and they interview him just kind of about the process of investigating a crime like this.

Because investigating crimes in Alaska is a lot different than investigating crimes here. For one thing, towns in Alaska are not connected like everything here. You know, like by interstate and stuff like that. You can't just drive from city to city in Alaska. Nome, you have to fly in everywhere and you fly into these little airports. And so all these towns have little airports because there's, you know, there's lakes and stuff and the roads don't connect. there's lakes and stuff and the roads don't connect and it's um so oftentimes like the first 24 to 48 hours after they're called in they're still just trying to get on scene oh yeah and like you know crimes in the lower 48 they say if you don't have you know so much information by the

first 48 hours then you're not gonna solve the case well so the crime lab in alaska where they send the samples to and any evidence that needs to be reviewed or anything like that is in Anchorage. How far away is that? It's 700 miles away. Wow. So it's far. Thank you. But you know what?

I would walk 500 miles. And I would walk 500 more just to get those samples to the lab. Yeah, I mean so Casey's so annoyed with us. She's done. She's gonna walk out of here and we're not gonna hear the end of this case.

Just for the record, I'm on page 5 of 20, so we gotta keep going. Alright. I feel like the bad reviewers are inside the house now. Truly. Okay, so it's

700 miles away to Anchorage. And so the police department in Nome, they took a bunch of pictures and then they just basically covered the entire scene with tarps. Including the body. They just left it there, put down tarps, and... Oh my gosh. Yeah.

They didn't even have a way to collect any of the evidence or remove her body or anything. And they didn't want to disturb anything. So they just covered it up and put it under guard. I thought that was really weird. That is so bizarre to me.

It's not really that pertinent to the case. I just thought it was so weird that they just left her there for like two days until they got on site. Wow. If I were her family member, I would not care for that either. I would not care for that at all. Yeah. No, me neither. But I do see the importance of preserving the scene.

Yeah. Wouldn't you be worried that an animal... Well, exactly. That's exactly what I'm thinking. That's why they put a guard detail on it to keep the animals out

and also because there's grizzlies and so they had to sit, watch outside to make sure that the body wasn't tampered with because there's bears.

So, yeah. Investigator Carrie Cathcart caught the first flight to Nome, and she was the first to really examine the scene. And right away, she noticed a few things left behind. There were tire treads in a pool of blood made by Sonia's body. So, someone had driven through after her body was there? Driven through the blood after she had been shot

in her body blood. So that could mean that the killer had to reverse. I mean, so basically they're saying they think that these are the killer's tire tracks. One thing they noticed that was very unusual

was that there were three of the same tire and one different. There was also some paint transfer on this branch that kind of over the trail hung down. And they could tell it was high enough up on the branch that they knew it had to be from a truck or an SUV. And it was light blue. We're looking for a light blue SUV with three of one tire. Maybe it's got a donut on. Is that what we're thinking? Something like that.

So a truck or SUV, light blue in color. Kristen said maybe a long john. I mouthed it, though, because I respect that you're on page five and there's no time. She's got to be on page six by now. I am on page six now. Oh, well, in that case, maybe it was a long time. Okay, so when Sonia had initially gone missing, Timree went to the police station to file the missing persons report,

and they had her make a list of Sonia's friends. And so this list is now the starting point for murder suspects. Yeah. And this list, let me tell you, this was real professional. It is written on an envelope. What? And they have taken pictures. Like our grandmother does? Yes. What, does your grandmother

only write on envelopes? Yes. She specifically saves Okay, so you know when you get a bill and it's got the separate envelope inside of it? She saves those specifically to make lists on. What? I don't know!

I love it. But so they're so unconcerned about this that they're like, jot it down on this envelope. They don't even have an actual piece of paper or anything. Right, or anything official. Right.

Yeah. It's just Timree made a list on an envelope that had even been mailed. It had postage marks on it. So it's basically somebody fished it out of the trash. Okay. Somebody fish it out of the trash. Okay. So one of the names on the list was Koenig.

Mm-hmm. So Koenig's real name was Daniel Angusuk. He was described as having a bad temper, but underneath that tough exterior, friends described him as a teddy bear. I knew you were going to say teddy bear. I knew you were going to say teddy bear. I thought she was going to say murderer. ABI investigators looked into him and they say they definitely have evidence of temper and hot-headedness, but not so much softer side.

But, I mean... Does he have a record? There were some domestic violence issues between him and an ex-girlfriend that he had a child with. And he was well-known to the known police department. And I'll go into details about any sort of crimes or anything like that. And I didn't look up to see if I could find him. But, yeah. So, just that he was...

They knew who he was. And they were always keeping an eye on him. So, he's their main person of interest in this case very quickly, not just because of his interest in Sonia or his temper, but Kunick drove a light blue truck. Oh, did he? You're kidding me. And they noticed that one of the tires doesn't match the others,

and it's the correct tire. Yeah, that matches the tracks. Yeah. So was this the truck that had been at the scene? Well, it sure seems like it, Casey. Do you remember you used to do this in early episodes? Yes. Because that's how Dateline does it.

This is how Dateline does it. It's how Dateline does it. It is how Dateline does it. I solved this problem by making fun of It's how Dateline does it. It is how Dateline does it. I solved this problem by making fun of her relentlessly. Yes, relentlessly. I don't do it anymore. Abuse is the key. She broke me like a wild mustard.

Okay, so the ABI had continued processing the scene, and what they thought were initial lucky breaks, you know, finding those things, really dried up very quickly. So with the exception of those couple of things that they found, you know, the tire tracks and the paint transfer, there's no other evidence at the scene. There's no forensic evidence at all. Sonia's clothes have been completely removed, except for one sock. There is no foreign DNA on or near her body. Under her fingernails? There is no DNA under her fingernails. Wow. And they did a rape kit and it comes back negative. She has not been sexually assaulted. Okay. So what about the bullet? Is it in her? I think the bullet is still in her head. Yes. The small amount of evidence they do have looks good for this guy.

Yeah. So they bring him in and interview him and then at the time they also take a look at his truck. Yeah. So they found blood droplets on the floor of the cab of his truck. Oh my. Yeah.

Did they do a DNA test on those? Calm down. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'll keep my pants on. That's when you yell at me, Casey, when you say keep your pants on. Yes. Sorry.

So they also processed the tires with luminol. And it turns out that they also show there's a significant amount of blood there as well. He had three rifles that he kept in the back of his truck, one of which had blood on the butt of the gun. And there was also, they have a picture of his shoes that he was, he had like one pair of tennis shoes, and the side of one of them is covered in blood. And he was just wearing those around. Is this human blood? Because he is a hunter.

Yeah, so they ask him, what the around. Is this human blood? Because he is a hunter. Yeah. So they ask him, what the hell is all this blood for? Yeah. And he's like, I just took me down a caribou and field dressed it. Not quite. Okay. They have caribou. I don't know.

So they got caribou in Alaska? Yeah, I think so. All right. Yeah. Okay. So they're havingibou in Alaska? Yeah, I think so. All right. Yeah. Okay. So they went, they're having this conversation with him. He claims he's not seen Sonia in two weeks. He had seen her on the Friday before, but they didn't even speak to each other.

They just like saw each other, waved, whatever. What? Is it possible that he just like happened to drive through? No. Where she was? No. Okay. All right. All right.

Okay. So according to him, he wasn't even in town when she was missing. Did somebody use his truck? He and several friends had gone on a hunting trip about 70 miles outside of Nome. They left at three o'clock on Sunday and didn't come back until Monday evening, which means that he has an alibi. What about his truck? Was his truck with him, or was it in Nome? I don't know.

Okay. Continue to wait. Stay tuned. Keep your pants on. Okay. I'm not going to keep saying that. No, you tell me to keep my pants on. You don't say okay.

All right, yes, I will if I keep my pants on. I don't want to. All right, yes, I will if I keep my pants on. I don't want to because it's pretty hot. I was thinking about taking them off. I mean, I don't use loomies, so I don't think you want me to take these off. Okay, so the officer interviewing Koenig noticed that he had a large scratch on his back, which the only thing I can think of is how he noticed that is that Kunik was doing this interview with no shirt on. Yeah, was he topless? Which is just weird.

I don't know. Maybe they photographed his body. Maybe they specifically had him take his clothes off to photograph his body. So yeah, he claims that it was given to him. He got in a fight with his baby mama. And the officer's like, you know what? I'm going to take you over to the hospital with the help of a nurse. We're going to take pictures, document all this stuff.

We're also going to take a DNA sample from you. Yes. So they do. Okay. Also, do they take samples of the blood from his shoes and the car and the butt of the gun? Yes. It hadn't even occurred to them to do that. They ask him about all this blood.

And they're like, you know, there's blood here in your car. There's blood on your tires. There's blood on your shoes. There's blood on this gun. They're like, what? If you didn't see Sonia and you were out camping, where did all this come from? He says that he hit a rabbit while driving. What?

Yes. Was it the biggest rabbit? The biggest. It was. What's that? It was the Easter Bunny. Harvey? Yes. Was it the biggest rabbit? It was, what's that? It was the Easter Bunny. Harvey, Harvey, no. That story about the giant imaginary rabbit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds terrible. So he hits this rabbit and it

doesn't die right away. And he can tell it's just laying in the road in Missouri. So he made it to the mercy killing of this rabbit? This is the toughest fucking rabbit there's ever been. Yes, so he says that he got out of the car and he hit it with the butt

of his rifle to end its suffering and at that time he got blood on his shoes, which then dripped onto the inside of his cab, of his truck. Oh my gosh. That sounds totally made up, right? Yeah, it sounds ridiculous. Except they're going to test it and it's going to come back as rabbit blood, isn't it?

That is exactly right. It didn't. No! Shit! It's all animal blood. Oh my God! It's what? It's all animal blood.

Oh my God! The tires on his truck do not match the tread. Holy shit. Shut up. The blue paint on his truck also not a match. His story totally checks out. Totally checks out. Entirely.

He had nothing to do with this. But he looked so good for it initially. I would like to pause and apologize for saying that he was clearly a murderer. I believe I said that multiple times. I believe that's called pulling a

brandy. Confidently wrong. So at this point, they're back to square one. They have zero idea on what the heck is going on here. Is he sure he didn't do it? So at this point, they're pulling officers off the investigation, reassigning them to other things. They had up to eight officers on the case case and now they're down to just two. Wow.

Officer Redburn, who we've already met. And then Officer Brian Wayavana, who he is the one who went and discovered her body with a volunteer firefighter. So he's relatively new to the police force and he did not really have any experience with investigating murders. He kept expecting. That's who you want on the case. Well, yeah. And he just kept expecting that they were going to assign another person or take him

off and put somebody on in his place. And they're like, no, you can handle it. You're the lead investigator. Oh, my gosh. Wait, how long had she been dead at this point? It's not very long. And they've already... A couple of weeks.

Wow. Wow. Yeah, they're already pulling people off. And, like, this is such a small town. I feel like this is solvable. But remember what the friend said. The friend said they don't care. The police department doesn't care when it's a native Alaskan.

Yeah, when it's a native Alaskan, that they just don't... Wow. Yeah. Well, I mean. That they just don't. Wow. Yeah. Well, I mean. I mean, that tracks. Officer Wayavana does appear to be native Alaskan. He doesn't ever say if he is or not, but he looks like it. But he's the only native on the police force.

So he is really excited, I guess, to get this opportunity. You know, he was actually personal friends with Sonia's sister, Christina, and her husband, Tom. So, like, he knew them. Oh, wow. And they actually, when he got assigned to it, were super excited because they're like, we know him. He's going to take this seriously. He's a great guy.

He's going to take this seriously. He's going to solve it, you know. But then Officer Wave on, I got assigned to the night shift. And Officer Redburn worked during the day. So the two investigators on this case are not working the same shifts and not working together. Shifts and they're not working together. Officer Wavona is constantly asking Officer Redburn for updates, for information, you know, leaving notes and stuff. And he's getting no response whatsoever.

And he's working nights, so he can't interview people. He can't go talk to people. And he's just like, I need some help with this. And they just kept brushing it off. Giving him the run around. So he finally decides, he's like, you know what? I'm just going to start it over. I'm going to pull the case file and I'm going to read every single report or note in that file since I can't

get any information you know from anybody else at the police station I'm just going to start over so while he's doing that he comes across something very interesting there is a handwritten tip in the file he does not know who took it it's not none of the officers wrote on it or anything. Right. Just a tip that had never been checked out. What is it? So a woman named Florence had called in after she'd heard about Sonia's death, saying that she had information for them. Please call her back. And no one ever called her back?

And no one ever called her back. Good grief. Holy shit. So now we're four weeks after Sonia's murder at this point. Officer Wavona is like, hey, after Sonia's murder at this point. Officer Way of Anna is like, hey, chief, let's go for a ride. We got a tip to go check out. So he and the chief go and visit Florence at her home to see what she had to say. And that seems to be pretty common.

They go to people's houses instead of bringing people down to the station because they initially went to visit Kunick at his apartment, too. Maybe to make people more comfortable. Make them more comfortable. And they do show pictures of the police station. It is very small. So they probably just don't have a whole lot of space or anything. So Florence, it turns out on the night

of Sonia's disappearance, Florence and her sister had been out on their front deck smoking. They don't like to smoke in their house so they're sitting outside. And Sonia had actually out on their front deck smoking. They don't like to smoke in their house, so they're sitting outside. And Sonia had actually walked by on her way home. Florence's sister actually knew Sonia, so they actually waved and said, hi, how you doing? You know, and Sonia saw them. So, yeah, they recognized her. They verified or recognized her.

They know for sure it's her because they knew her or one of them knew her. They noticed that there's a car following Sonia, or not a vehicle, following her pretty closely behind. And it's pretty obvious that it's creeping along, slowing down. And she's walking, so it's obviously pretty clear you're being followed. But then all of a sudden the car sped off and went around the corner and they didn't see it. Only because they saw the people on the porch watching them. Yeah.

But then they noticed at the very next corner, it came back in from another direction and cut in front of Sonia to stop her. So it intercepted her and it's close enough, even though it's, you know, like a block down that they can still see. Yeah. Sonia is actually leaning into the passenger window of this vehicle and she's speaking to the driver. Okay. So it's somebody you know, like a block down, that they can still see. Yeah. Sonia's actually leaning into the passenger window of this vehicle and she's speaking to the driver. Okay.

So it's somebody she knows. Yeah. And then she... Not necessarily. But I mean, probably in a small town. Comfortable enough to talk to them. I mean... And then she gets into the passenger seat.

Oh, shit. Okay. And the vehicle drives off. Drives off. Mm-hmm. Well, that is absolutely something. Do they have a description of the vehicle drives off. Drives off. Mm-hmm. Well, that is absolutely something. Do they have a description of the vehicle? And they even know what time it was.

It was exactly 1.26 a.m. because they looked at their watches. Well, yeah. Because it was weird. Yeah. Because they thought it was weird. They are the last people to see Sonia alive. Mm-hmm. But, yes, there is important information about that car or that vehicle.

It wasn't just any car. Is it a fucking police car? It's a known police car. Oh, shit. Holy shit. Oh, no. Holy shit. Is it the guy on the day shift?

Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, something. Redburn. Redburn. Redburn. Redburn. It Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, was like, holy crap, that's big. He and the chief agree right on the spot. They're like, okay, Bureau of Investigation has to come back in. We cannot do any more investigation into this whatsoever. The implications are clear that this is coming from inside the police department. We can't be involved whatsoever. So the Alaska Bureau of Investigation comes back and takes over the investigation.

And case officer Eric Burroughs was brought in to head up the case. So he does his initial review of all the evidence and everything. And what he notices, the lack of evidence at the scene is actually very indicative of somebody who has evidence awareness. Yeah, absolutely. So a knowledge of what investigators will look for and use to identify suspects and uses that information then to help conceal their identity. More proof that this was a cop. Yeah. So the first priority was to discover who was driving this police vehicle on the night in question.

I mean, it's a small town. It's a small police force. Yeah, it should be logged, right? The Nome Police Department has three Ford Expeditions that they own. So nobody has their own car. They practice what is called hot seating,

which is where whoever's on duty uses the car. They drive each other to and from work. They pick each other up. I thought that was when you fart and you roll up the window. So... Similar. Yes, very, very. when you fart and you roll up the window. So. Similar. Yes, very, very. Rude to do when somebody else is having to take over the car.

It's a terrible thing to do. Yeah. And that's why we on the Let's Word a Pied Court podcast do not endorse it. Okay. Do not endorse it. Okay, so knowing that this and knowing the night in question, they're immediately able to narrow it down to two officers. Okay. It is either Officer Matt Owens or Officer Stan Pasquoia. All right, we haven't heard any of these names yet. We have not heard either of them.

I've just been so confidently wrong. I'm just going to pick it. Barrel on. Both of them claim they had nothing to do with it. Of course they do. Typical Owens. Yes. Just like Owens.

Deny, deny, deny. So there are dispatch logs and everything. But I mean, they're like, they just sign in and out themselves. Yeah, exactly. Honor system situation. Yes, exactly. And so, and their jobs were to patrol at night. So being in the car at night around the times when the bars close is not unusual.

Yeah. So the ABI asked them to come to Anchorage to be interviewed and to take polygraph tests. So the polygraphs are obviously not admissible in court or anything. But I think that law enforcement routinely uses them on themselves. Well, you have to pass a polygraph to become a law enforcement officer. Right, exactly. So James's little brother was going to possibly work at a prison and he had to take a polygraph test. So it's just like any sort of situation like this, they'll make you take a polygraph test.

So it's not unheard of or anything. It can be a good tool, even if it's not admissible. They're preparing to go to Anchorage. And it's not just like, hey, come down here. You have to buy tickets and plan it and find a hotel and all this stuff. tickets and plan it and find a hotel and all this stuff. So they had them scheduled. And then one really weird thing happened right before they were supposed to go. One of the three vehicles from the known police department goes missing. What?

Yeah. So it's late one evening when one of the officers. What? You better hope it's fucking Owens at this point. It's probably not. I've been so wrong this whole time. That first guy, I was like, lock him up. Hit a rabbit in my ass. Okay, so one of the officers notices that the SUV is missing.

They radio it in to ask about it, and Matt Owens is on duty, and he takes the call. He was. Sounds exactly like Owens. What the hell? He goes out looking for the vehicle, and it's dark at this point. So at 2.51 a.m., he radioed in that he has found it at a local gravel pit out of town. What?

That's weird. Well, how'd he find it? Just driving around. All right. Seems sus that he put it there. This local gravel pit is also very close to where Sonia's body had been found. Okay. So a few minutes later, he radios it in again that shots had been fired and he needs backup.

What? Yes. Backup arrives. There's no sign of anybody there. Uh-huh. Not even Officer Owens. Where the fuck did Owens go? So he comes.

Faked his own death. He comes walking in from the tundra. Uh-huh. And he says that... He tells the chief, he's like, I got really freaked out and I ran away. What?! Really?

He heard the shots fired and he just... Maybe he's just not cut out to be a police officer. Okay. All right. Might be big of him to admit that. Yeah. So they process the car to go over the scene, and they notice that the shotgun that is in the trunk is missing. Uh-huh.

And somebody has thrown a rock through one of the windows. And they left an envelope on the seat. What's in the envelope? There's no fingerprints to be found. There's no evidence of shell casing. There's no evidence of shots or anything. This is very suspicious. But inside the envelope is a letter from Sonia's killer.

Shut up. What does it say? I have exactly what it says. Oh, my gosh. This case is wild. It is nuts. And you've never heard of it, right? No.

It's insane. Oh, my gosh. OK, here's the here's the note that was left by the killer. Pigs, I hate cops. I hate every one of you. Sonia was just a person in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do not know her. And as you can see, it was easy for me to take your pig car keys right there.

It was not her fault. She thought I was a pig and shit just happened. She was just a person and I wanted to see if I could that night. Every one of you should be more careful i watch every move you make you leave me alone and i will leave you alone i will also shoot you in the head if you get close oh my god the lady duff protests too much yeah owens yeah owens all over a hundred percent okay so yeah no it's not actually a cop. I'm just a guy who hates cops. And I stole the cop car on that particular night and pretended to be a cop. Because I hate cops.

I mentioned I'm not a cop and I hate cops. But even though I got away with it, I'm going to steal this cop car again and leave you proof that I'm the one who killed her. Right. Yeah. So to prove that the letter was really written by the killer, he left behind in the envelope Sonia's rec center ID card. Oh, my gosh. Which she had on her. Yeah. So it is actually the killer, but that killer's also a police officer named Matt Owens.

Didn't you hear? He hates police officers. Holy shit. Okay. It better be Matt Owens. No! Didn't you hear? He hates police officers. Holy shit. Okay, it better be Matt Owens at this point because I have definitely accused him. Okay, so Investigator Burroughs almost immediately is just like, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Yes!

He's like, no! Just like that rabbit story. No, no. That one was real. The SUVs were not well guarded and they would often be left unlocked with the keys in them in front of the station. Well, are you kidding me? But Nome is such a small town that all of the officers are known to residents. She would have known if that was not an actual police officer in the car. Yes, there is no way that Sonia would have gotten into a police car and not known who the officer driving it was.

Absolutely. This letter had almost certainly been written as a way to focus the investigation away from Matt Owens and Stan Pasquoia. Yeah, specifically Matt Owens. Because we've decided. We have decided. Okay, so Stan Pasquoia goes to Anchorage for his interview. And so they ask him which vehicle he was driving on shift that night. And he's like, I have no idea.

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Are they numbered? Yes, they are numbered. All right. Well, you might take a gander at the number. There might be. That's probably protocol.

He says that he was filling out paperwork at the police station until about 1.45. And that's verifiable by the dispatch log and then that Owens took him home when his shift was over. Okay, well she was taken at 1.26, right? Right. So he was at the police station until 1.45. She got in the car at 1.26.

And so he says that there's no way that this was a police officer. He's like, I didn't do it. Owens didn't do it. This is not it. He's vouching for Owens. That's what he's saying.

Yes. Okay. I don't love that. Well, you're not going to think that you're a co-worker. You're right, that you're a co-worker. I mean, if you worked with somebody pretty often, you would not want to think that of them. So a few days later, Matt Owens goes to Anchorage for his interview. And he just shits his pants.

His timeline is like, I thought I told you that it was not a police officer who did this. I believe I put very clearly in that letter. Both officers went on a domestic violence call about midnight or so. Ended up in a fight. Between them there was like a brawl and the civilian was arrested and they brought him back to the station for processing. And then Owens and Pasquoya kind of split up. Owens went out patrolling and he did some paperwork while Pasquaya stayed at the station to wrap things up. They did tell the same story.

Both stories lined up and both claim to have nothing to do with what happened to Sonia. But obviously, I mean, one of them is lying. It sounds like Owens, if Stan's time at the police station can be confirmed. So Matt Owens didn't know it, but while he was in Anchorage, Investigator Burroughs was in Nome asking some questions. Poking around. Sniffing around. So he asked other co-workers. Talking about Owens. So he's asking, you know, the co-workers and other people who work at the station.

And the response he gets is that Owens didn't always follow the rules. But that he would do the right thing in an emergency situation, like really, really needed him to. But what the hell does that mean? They didn't go into a lot of details about that. I thought it was weird also. But they also know that means that his co-workers don't trust. Yeah, they don't trust him. Yeah.

He's a piece of shit. Yeah. So he had an affinity for the night shift. What does that mean? Oh, yeah. He loves it because he's not supervised. He's not monitored as much. He requested to stay on the night shift, even though he'd been eligible to move to Days.

He had a wife and a kid. Oh, yeah. And working nights because he liked it. Yeah. No one likes working nights. He also liked to have company while he was on a shift. So he'd pick up a young girl walking along the street. Oftentimes, he would bring people to work with him and then take them on unauthorized ride-alongs.

What? Wow. Yeah. And he'd been told multiple times to stop doing that. And he just did it anyway. He also did like the ladies. And he used his badge as a way to pick up women on ship cruising around and often having sex with them in his patrol car. So this is just stuff that people, it was concluded by the investigator that the women were not being coerced because they were choosing to get in the car and he didn't detain them or put them in the car.

I conclude a different conclusion. I agree. I agree, but it's also 2003. People, we hadn't invented abuses of blood. That's right. We were maybe not quite as serious about pointing out that behavior at that time. Absolutely. But it's definitely predatory even if they get in the car on their own. Absolutely it is. But, I mean, yeah, he's banging chicks in his patrol car, taking people on ride-alongs.

It's not even his patrol car. It's not. It's a car that he shares. Yes. Gross. I'm going to say it. Yeah. You were worried.

I mean, I was worried the worst thing that was happening was farting in that car. Now we know it's so much worse than that. So in his interviewing people around town, he's also finding out that Owens liked to do this thing where he would follow women at night in his car and then cut them off and intercept them and force them to talk to him. Well, that's exactly what happened to Sonia. And I think you

might be right about this Owens character. I was right the whole time. Let's forget everything I said before that. So it's also figured out that he and Sonia would have known each other at least as acquaintances.

She worked nights at the hospital and he worked nights at the police station. So when he'd have to bring in people to get medical attention and stuff like that, they interact a lot. So they do know who each other is. Yes, exactly. So she's the very first person he's going to see.

And he even admitted in his interview, his polygraph, that he did know who Sonia was. But he claimed that he never picked up women and that it was absolutely ludicrous that they said that he would have had sex in his patrol car because that is crazy. Nobody would do anything like that, either on or off duty. And how did the polygraph determine that response? Well, Stan Pasquoia passed the polygraph determine that response well Stan Pasquaya passed his polygraph test what about Matt Owen did not yeah also

polygraphs are bullshit a failed polygraph is not enough to arrest somebody no it's not yeah so he goes back to know so he continued to serve on the police he has been put on administrative leave while the investigation continues. And now his whole life is falling apart. Oh, that's a shame. His wife initiates a divorce, and so he's fighting a custody case. I mean, when you find out your husband's been sleeping with all sorts of women. Yeah, that's hindsight is 20-20.

He's lost where he's living. He's sleeping on a friend's couch. He's just, everything is going so crappy for him. I drank directly into the microphone. I apologize. It was a long, slow- It was. It was so long, too.

I'm so sorry. I think it's really crazy. You guys always talk about all this stuff you do, and I can't ever hear any of it on the recordings. Plenty of people can't. They must have supersonic ears. Okay, so Officer Burroughs talks to Owens' ex-wife. And she reports to him this incident. She reports to him this incident.

She says that Matt called her on August 12th and told her that she needed to pick up their son because he had been called into work. There's a missing woman and it doesn't look good. She remembers specifically that it was August 12th because it was Matt's birthday. Okay. So it's his birthday and he has to go into work. And she was still at work when he called, which means it would have been before 4.30 p.m. because she leaves at 4.30. Well, Sonia was not reported missing until 5.30 that night. Oh, shit.

So how did he know about it? Yeah, well, because he murdered her. Because he murdered her, right. Yeah, but they're going to have a real hard time proving it, aren't they? Yeah. So a woman that Owens had started seeing after he broke up, his wife broke up, or I don't know, maybe he was seeing her during. I mean, who knows? This guy clearly doesn't care about his wife.

Anything, yeah. He says that he wants her to leave with him, and they're going to go start over someplace else. They're going to leave Alaska. Yeah, I bet he does want to leave. I'm sure he does. And so they're listening to his phone calls and things like that. Yeah, they've got him under surveillance. They've got him under surveillance and they notice that family members of his are calling to get tickets, pricing for airline tickets out.

And so they're like, OK, we are not ready for this. But this guy is clearly a flight risk. Yeah. We have to arrest him now. So they do. They arrest him. So he's arrested for the murder of Sonia Ivanov. And two days later, he is fired by the police department.

So he is no longer a police officer. Great. Now that he's no longer a police officer, more women come forward. Oh, shit. And these women are women who ended up in his cop car not really by choice. So they are women who come forward with tales of sexual assault

and rape and coercion and things like that. And the women are all native Alaskans. Yeah. Yeah. And many of them had tried to file complaints with the known police department. And were not taken seriously. But were not taken seriously and their complaints were never investigated. This is infuriating.

Yes, it is. Never investigated. This is infuriating. Yes, it is. He is even one of the complaints. They even reported that Owens said to his victims that no one would believe a drunk native woman over a white police officer. That's fucking awesome. Yeah. And he was probably right.

I mean, yeah, he clearly was. He was right. He was right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it clearly was. He was right. He was right, yeah.

Yeah. Okay, so now the investigators have to find a way to tie Owens to Sonia's murder. And it will not be easy. No. Because he knows what to do, and there was not a whole lot of evidence. They get a tip that Owens would frequent a hunting cabin about 70 miles away and that he had been seen there burning some really new looking gloves in the fire pit out in front of this camp. So it's kind of hard to tell from the video of this, but what it looks like is that there's several kind of like lean-to shacks around a communal fire pit. Oh, okay.

So multiple buildings or multiple places for people to stay around this fire pit. So it's not like it's his cabin and his fire pit for sure, but they decide they're going to go investigate this fire pit because if he's burning gloves, what else is he possibly burning? So they basically treat it like they're panning for gold. Just through the ashes of this

fire pit. Piece by piece. And they find some things. They find a few metal eyelets from a pair of Skechers shoes. Was that? Yes. Sonia pair of Skechers shoes. Was that? Yes.

Sonia was wearing Skechers when she disappeared. They found metal hooks, remains of a bra, and the button from a pair of jeans. They were photographed, and then Sonia's sister, Christina, was brought in to look at the photographs, and she did identify that the button on the brand of jeans was from the brand that Sonia would wear. Wow.

And she also confirmed that Sonia was wearing Skechers when she was murdered. So these items definitely tie. Yeah. They're Sonia's. Her clothes were burned in this fire. No question about it. Yeah. But can you say that Matt Owens did it?

Can you say that Matt Owens did it? Can you say that Matt Owens did it? Turns out that they say yes, they found a key in the fire that was to a P.O. box that Owen shared with his uncle. All right, that's pretty good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'll take it. So investigators also at this point decide to go back to the murder scene just to kind

of comb through it again and See if there's anything. How much time has passed right now, though? I mean, we're still it's four or five, six weeks. So it's all right. It's not super, super old, but like it's not fresh. It's not fresh. Yeah. It turns out that they did find something, though.

The fucking ABI lady missed stuff? Yeah, apparently. I mean, they're like out in the middle of nowhere. It's this wilderness. There's bushes and trees and shit everywhere. All right, I take back my anger. I'm sorry. I mean, without knowing where to look, how do you search stuff like that?

All right, all right, I'm sorry. I mean, without knowing where to look, how do you search stuff like that? All right, all right, I'm sorry. So what they found, though, was the missing shell casing from the bullet. Oh, wow. So it lets them know that it's a.22, which they did already know it was a.22 from the bullet in her head. But the shell casing being on the ground means that it was an automatic pistol and not a revolver. A revolver, yeah.

Yeah. So Officer Redburn, who was out there helping look for this stuff, he suggested checking the evidence room at the station. For the murder weapon. For, oh my gosh. Apparently it was not well guarded. Oh, my gosh. Apparently, it was not well guarded. All the officers had access to it, and it would have been very easy for somebody to pull a gun out of there and go use it and put it back. Oh, shit.

And so they head there. And there was a pistol in the evidence room that could have produced the casing. Yeah. But they weren't able to definitively prove that, yes, it was this particular gun. Yeah. So, finally, they've got all this stuff. The justice system runs slow. We're getting to trial now.

So, it's 2005. A couple of years have passed. So, the prosecution lays out their case. And and unfortunately, it is largely circumstantial. There is not a whole heck of a lot here that is definitively proof that this guy murdered Sonia. Yeah. I'm not going to go back all into all this stuff. We heard a lot of it. Go back to page one.

I've got more gnome jokes. They found the remains of her clothes in the fire pit. Sonia was seen getting into the SUV. The phone call to his wife. Yeah. The gun in the evidence room. The key from the P.O. box. Yeah.

They were not allowed to bring up the other women. Other women. Mm-hmm. It was inadmissible. So the defense did do everything they could to poke holes in this. And they brought in a witness who claims that he saw Sonia driving a car on Monday night, which was after she was murdered. Well, that's just ridiculous. Yeah.

He says he swears up and down that it was her. His name was Fake Seat McGee. The defense got the state's firearms expert to admit that the gun in evidence, while it was most likely the gun that killed her, couldn't be 100 percent certain. Owens even got on the stand. What did he say? First, I am a mother. He said that his ex-wife was mistaken and the call that she says happened before Sonia's body was discovered actually happened the week after.

No. Which that doesn't make any sense. That doesn't make any fucking sense. It doesn't either. Yeah. So the defense really what they wanted to harp in on was that there's no evidence. All this other stuff is easily discounted. There are two better suspects.

Why don't you look at one of them? Kunick, who's already been ruled out, but, you know, he could have had motive. I mean, it looked really good for him. I mean, early on. Yeah. And he was really stupid about that. He was wrong. And they also presented Officer Redburn as a possible alternate suspect.

Yes. They said, well, he's the one who suggested about the murder weapon, and he interviewed a lot of these witnesses, and wouldn't it have been super easy for him to pin this on Officer Owens? Wow. Framed him. Yeah. So they rest their case thinking they poked enough holes.

The prosecution is hoping it's enough for a conviction. The jury goes out for deliberations. And then after more than 40 hours of deliberations, they sent a note to the judge. They hung? That they were deadlocked. And the judge declared a mistrial. Oh, my gosh. Prosecutors did go forward

with the second trial. They're like, no, we're going to do this again. You know, he did it. We're going to prosecute. The defense asked for a change of venue. They said that he can't get a fair trial here in Nome. So the trial was moved to Kotzebue, Alaska, which is

very far away. But where? Kotzebue. Kotzebue. All right. K-O-T-Z-E-B-U-E. It's about the same size or a little smaller than Nome. So, yeah, you'd never heard of it. No. Do you think they have caribou in Kotzebue?

Well, it's in the Arctic Circle, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Great. So the prosecution... I'm ignoring her This is how you get her to stop doing this stuff Kristen

Coats made of caribou hide I don't know So what's the solution to this? If you ignore it she'll stop doing it, it goes away I doubt that I feel like she just does it harder. I feel like she figures out whatever will get to you.

I just really go to tuning her out. You have lots of experience. I do. Yes. Okay, so the prosecution basically lays out the same case again. Presents all the same evidence. It's all just the same thing. So they rest their case, and then the defense is presenting their case. Officer Wayvana back in Nome was talking to his neighbor, and his neighbor was like,

Hey, did so-and-so ever call you guys? And he's just like, Who the fuck is so-and-so? I don't remember this lady's name, and I did not write it down. That's fine. Okay. We'll call her... Nady's Lame. Yeah.

Thank you. Nady's Lame. Okay, did you ever call Nady's Lame? Yeah. So he's like, what are you talking about? And he's like, Owens is renting a room from this woman after he split up with his wife. And, like, he's a friend of the family, but she's also charging him rent. So it's his landlady. That's what I put in here, that she's a landlady.

And that she told Way of Anna's neighbor that she had seen Sonya's rec center id card in matt owens's bedroom holy shit yes did she snap a picture with her iphone that she did not have in 2003 and the iphone wasn't invented until 2007. Yeah. Okay, but so they're really nervous about how to get this in. They've already rested their case. Yeah. This is obviously critical information. And they got to get it.

They got to get something done before the defense rests because then they're out of luck. Can they make her a redirect witness? Yeah. So here's what they did. Because she was friends of Owens, they were worried that they are going to call her to the stand and she is going to say, I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. So she's just going to deny everything. So they were able to get a warrant to record a phone call between her and the neighbor.

a warrant to record a phone call between her and the neighbor. So the neighbor asked her, he's like, hey, I think I might have stepped in it. I was talking to, you know, my neighbor who was a police officer with Nome and I told him what you told me about that rec center ID card. And he, you know, I don't know if I was supposed to say anything, but he was very interested in it. And she's like, oh, okay. Well, he's like, I remember you telling me you were going to take it to the police or to the lawyers. And she's like, well, yeah, I was going to. But then I read in the papers like a day later that they already had the ID.

So I just didn't worry about it. Oh, my gosh. They get this whole thing recorded on tape. I just didn't worry about it. Oh my gosh. They get this whole thing recorded on tape. And then they get back for redirects. And they basically say to the judge, Hey, we know we're not supposed to do this, but new evidence has come to light.

We have this witness. We want to call her. And the judge says, Yeah, okay, I'll allow it. So they do allow it. Okay. They put her up on the stand and they'll allow it. So they do allow it. Okay. They put her up on the stand and they ask her the questions. And what do you know?

I have no idea. I have no idea what you're talking about. So then they play the tape. They play the tape in court. Roll it. Yes. So they play the tape in court where she is basically saying that she didn't ever. She's basically confirming that she's for sure... Yeah, she's lying on the sea.

And she's perjured herself. Yes. Yes. And then they summarize their case. Yeah. And they're like, okay, this is proof positive that he killed her. He had her ID card, and then he put it with this fake letter in the car. And at the end of the letter, it said, by the way, Matt Owens

didn't write this. Yes, basically. So it goes back to the jury. And this time they find a verdict. Guilty. Guilty. First degree murder. Yes. Sentenced to 101 years in prison.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Not just like life in prison. 101 years in prison. Oh my gosh. Yeah. The judge, not just like life in prison, 101 years. It's got to be like aggravating circumstances for being a police officer and all this other stuff too. So there wasn't any sort of breakdown. He used his position of power to get her in his car

to begin with. And not only that, he then continued to try to use it to shift the blame onto other people. Yeah. This guy was a bad, bad cop. Yeah. I knew from the minute I heard his name.

So he has appealed based on ineffective counsel, but that was denied. Yeah. So as of 2017, he's still serving his sentence. 2005, the Ivanoff family settled a wrongful death suit with the known police department.

They stated that the police department should have known that Owens was a risk. Yes, absolutely. In 1997, Owens originally applied to be a police officer and the police chief at that time refused to hire him. Wow. Citing concerns with his character. Yep. But then he retired and a new police chief took over and the new police chief hired him. Hired him.

Yep. One thing that this case has really brought to light is a major problem. Native Alaskans are treated? Police department. Yes. Crimes against Alaska Natives, especially women, are not taken seriously. They're often ignored and rarely investigated. So Sonia's murder, though, is kind of the tipping point.

She's been murdered by a cop in the Natives, which in Nome, Natives make up 60% of the population. So it's a huge amount. Yeah. It's huge. Yeah. Most of the people in town are native, yet the people in charge are white.

Yeah. But the natives would not allow for a town and a police force that disregarded them any longer. So they started making a bunch of noise, and the city council decided to address the issue, and they're going to hire a new chief of police from virginia with a specific focus of improving the police department response to sexual assaults and improving the relationship between the police and the alaska natives he brought in cold case detectives to sift through the backlog of over 460 open sexual assault cases from the past 15 years. Oh, my God.

Holy shit. So basically people were coming in and filing these reports and nothing was ever done. Nothing was ever being done. Which makes you wonder how many people just stopped reporting. Absolutely. Yeah. Why would you put yourself through that? Why would you?

Yes. So the actual number of these cases has got to be exponentially higher. Yes. So this new chief, you know, he's brought in these cold case detectives to try to make a dent in this. But he was met pretty quickly with a lot of resistance from the city officials who hired him. They wanted him to just work on moving forward, you know, a better path moving forward. Let's not look in the past. Yes, exactly.

They do. They only wanted him to start. Let's not examine that too closely. They didn't want to investigate any of those old cases. And so he ends up resigning because he's just so frustrated. Yeah. But one thing, you know, he did bring to light what was happening, and it did start the long process of reform. Currently, the police department in Nome has a dedicated sexual assault officer and an Alaska Native liaison.

sexual assault officer and an Alaska native liaison. They do not have any native members on the actual police force. So none of the officers are native. But the current chief of police has come out and said he'd like to change that soon. But boy, that sounds promising. Yeah, great. Yeah, exactly. So that is the story of a murder by a bad cop. That was nuts.

And you told it so well. Thank you. Thank you. This case really resonated with me. I thought it was just awful. And this is just, for me anyway, more proof that there needs to be more police training. There's got to be some sort of reform. And I understand I'm not afraid of cops.

I have no reason to be afraid of cops. Yeah, because of my privilege. Yes, my privilege says that I don't need to be afraid of them. Yeah. But there are enough cops in this country that a certain percentage of them are bad cops. Absolutely. And those people should not be protected by the system. No.

And they are. Yeah. Yeah, it's an absolute problem. Yeah. It's just... Okay, that one was tough. That was... Yes, so frustrating.

And so frustrating that, like, they hire this new person, and clearly they're just wanting, like, new window dressing. Yes, that's exactly right. It's just like a PR move, right? Yes, exactly. When the guy tries to do his job, I They're like, no, no, you can just approve it going forward. We don't need to reopen those

old cases. Yeah, I'm sure they'd fucking love improvements going forward. Yeah, absolutely. They want to be able to say, we did this thing. Exactly. Yeah. Well, that sucked and it was great Absolutely. They want to be able to say, we did this thing. We did this thing. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that sucked, and it was great. Yes. Yes. Yes. All of those things are true. How dare you make us falsely accuse so many different people. That's all on you, Casey. Yeah, that's your fault. It's on your hands.

I mean, really, I'm gonna put it on Dateline because I just walked through the Dateline episode and that's the way they presented it. Right. So we blame Josh. Yes. That's right. Or good buddy Josh. You know, the time has come for us to

get in the Discord. Yeah. Brandi, what did you ask the people? Okay, so I asked the people to share their, hold on, how did I word it? I have to get to the top. Dick pics. No. Oh, my mistake. I asked everyone to share their favorite useless fact or bit of knowledge.

So now we'll share some of them. You got the discord over there? You want to share some too? Okay, I bit of knowledge. So now we'll share some of them. You got the Discord over there? You want to share some too? Okay, I like this one. Predatory dinosaurs are most likely monogamous and mated for life. What? There is some evidence to suggest

that prehistoric raptors proposed to each other with shiny rocks. That is so cool. This is from Sarah Kaya Comes In. Sarah Kaya Comes In. Sarah Kaya Comes In. Yeah, I'm sorry. You love dinosaurs. I like dinosaurs.

Your baby likes dinosaurs. My daughter loves dinosaurs. Thanks to me and James. I don't think Casey is really sorry about this. I don't think she is either. Did you see that you're an admin in the Discord now? Oh, no, I didn't. Also, David, you're an admin now whether you wanted

to be or not. Excellent. Brandy's Ho-Faze shares this fun fact with no background, but Betamax failed because porn producers used VHS. I totally knew that. You did? Yes, it's also why Blu-ray

prevailed over HD DVDs. It's porn. Oh my gosh. Wow. Wow. Oh, Clark Breckenridge, a.k.a. Lil Nut. It's technically illegal to wear a red dress after 7 p.m. in Colorado. Old-timey prostitution law still on the books, but it's completely legal to go out topless as a woman in Boulder.

I knew that. I was in Boulder on Pearl Street for a women's march where all the women were topless. Oh, they were all topless. Wow.

Yes, I was very happy for them, but I was very uncomfortable. You were not topless. You were horrified. You were like, one time my sister wore shorts to bed and I was upset about that.

Yeah. So this is just terrifying. Okay, this is kind of nuts to me. Forbidden Pizza says, autoimmune disorders commonly make you immune to poison ivy. Really? Oh, really? Get out of my yard. Start trying to do.

I actually have always thought that I was immune to poison ivy, so that makes so much sense. There's been multiple times where I have definitely been exposed to it and did not have a reaction. That's really weird because I've never had poison ivy either. Yeah. And I have been in patches of it a couple of times. Yeah. Okay. And do you remember when I was really sick a couple years ago, my blood test says I have an autoimmune disorder.

Yeah, you have some kind of an autoimmune disorder but they never did diagnose it. And obviously I have Graves' disease which is an autoimmune disease. I have got a couple of partially used gift cards. They're both of yours. You just have to do some light yard work for me.

Our dad is super allergic to poison ivy though. He's so so allergic to it. Like super allergic to poison ivy, though. He's so, so allergic to it. Like, crazy allergic to it. If he gets anywhere near it, he'll get it everywhere. And he has to go get steroid shots. He has to immediately go home and shower to get the oils off, and then he has to go get shots or else it will spread everywhere.

But he's really good at baseball, so. Because he steroids. I was like, what the fuck does that mean? Baseball, so. Because he steroids. I was like, what the fuck is that? Yay! Is this real? That doesn't sound like a real fact.

Where's t-shirts? Sometimes I can speak. Sometimes. It says the Gateway Arch is as wide as it is tall. Really? 630 feet. I mean, I don't know. I'll take your word for it, but looking at it,

it doesn't seem like that's true. Yeah, I mean... Are you going to tell us about parabolas and stuff? Oh, no. Okay, good. I couldn't possibly, but since you brought it up... I mean, I don't know specifically, but part of the arch is underground,

so maybe the widest part of it would be. Because you get on underground. The whole visitor center is all underground. We went up in it when we were kids. And you get in these little eggs to ride up. Oh, it's awful. Don't do it. Don't do it.

I remember that we were in there with another woman. And she didn't shave her legs. And I was a small child. And I remember thinking, I've never seen a woman who doesn't shave her legs. That's what you remember from going to the arch? That's what I remember. Good for her. I don't know.

I'm very happy for her. Absolutely. You could look over here and see a woman who hasn't shaved her legs in a long time. Let's blow your mind, Brandi. I do shave my legs when my legs show, but in the wintertime, sorry, James, I am just not interested. Ooh, DP4DP says, a crocodile can't stick its tongue out. Oh. Oh.

Lazy lesbian Biz says anteaters have prehensile penises. They can move them like we move our fingers. Oh, wow. David could do that. Oh my god. Just kidding.

He can do like a mean helicopter dance. Okay, you guys are looking at me like your husbands have never done helicopter dances. They don't have the technology. I mean, James might have done it, but I was just like, eh, okay. Yeah, no, I can't say I got excited by that. Meanwhile, Brandi's fucking dazzled. First she sees a woman with leg hair, then she sees topless people in Boulder, and then David Helicopters. I'm a woman of the world.

I'm seated up. Oh my gosh, does not light up a room says pig orgasms average 30 minutes but can last as long as 90 minutes. Oh shit. We should all be cops. What? KT says female platypuses don't have nipples or teats like other female mammals. Instead, they have two patches of skin that sweat milk that the mother has to guide her young to because baby platypuses are born blind. Oh, wow.

It's kind of like those essential oil diffusers. I feel like the platypus is just like everything that was left over in one animal. Absolutely. Okay, Icy Fat Legs says, pigs are smarter than dogs and three-year-old human babies. That's rude. One is very smart. She is extremely smart. There is not a pig smarter than her.

Okay, this is horrifying. okay this is horrifying death by pants says a garden snail has about 14 000 teeth that's a lot of teeth i don't care for that i don't like that at all nope oh fierce mama llama says hyenas give birth through their clitoris. Oh, no. That sounds rough. Oh, I love this one. Dune Buggy Princess says when a dog leans on you, it's their version of hugging you. Oh. Queen Nikki says all cholera deaths are from dehydration.

IV fluids would save every single cholera patient. Wow. It dehydrates you so much that you, like, wrap out all your fluids. Yeah. That's crazy that. Is that what happened to you last night, Bree? I know. Brandi has cholera right now.

I was up sick last night. I believe I got a touch of the food poisoning. Just a touch. Just a touch. Oh, this one. Trans Am Princess says, when Lincoln was president, he used to be able to go into the White House

and just shake his hand. Oh, my goodness. I've never heard of that. Ew. Ew. Ew. Sif for Brain says, the most relevant one coming to mind is a meme I came across this morning that said that cheese is basically a loaf of milk. Oh, gross.

Oh, that is gross. That's disgusting. This can't be true. Peachy Stream says only female ducks can quack. I have no idea if that's true. I don't either, but that doesn't seem right. I agree. Hmm.

Hmm. Oh, I did know this. Okay. Miles Exists says Cleopatra was born closer to the invention of the iPhone than the building of the pyramids. Yes. The pyramids are so old. Isn't that nuts? It's nuts.

She would have been in the time of Caesar. So like right around, he died in 44 BC. Look at this fucking nerd over here. Because I know when Julius Caesar died, that's not weird. That's a thing that normal people know. Kristen totally knew it. I did too. Ask me anything.

Casey, let's just talk about geography for a while. No. And force Brandy to listen. In my ass pocket says a blue whale fart is large enough to encase a horse. Blue whales are huge. Like a human can walk through

the chambers of a heart of a blue whale. They're huge. I mean like so large that you can't even fathom it. Yes.

Down bitch says it rains diamonds on your anus. You worry about your own anus. That's why I don't have to work anymore. Yes, I have heard this as well. Malin shot out of a bonfire. Says only mayors can call the FBI. That sounds really stupid. Richard N. Ball says annually more people are bitten by New Yorkers than are bitten by sharks.

Oh, my gosh. I mean, that sounds right. This breaks my gosh. I mean, that sounds right. That sounds right. This breaks my brain. Okay. Flight of the Bumblebee says, humans technically can't feel wetness. Instead, our brains just make a guess based on temperature, texture, and pressure. This is why cold things can sometimes feel wet.

Oh. Oh, weird. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. I'm thinking of every ice pack I've ever touched. Fusure Optic Knowledge, G, says tonsils sometimes grow back after being removed. I have heard of that happening. Huh.

Caradactyl says, if you take all of your veins out of your body and line them up end to end, you would die. Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Oh, ad noise.

Doodle-oo! Harvard is the Simmons of Cambridge. Everyone knows it. But few people are brave enough to say it. And that's why I appreciate you, ad noise. Doodaloo. Wait, what? Katie Two Legs says,

female ducks have corkscrew-shaped vaginas. Years of evolutionary advancements to prevent dick rape. Do they mean duck rape? But all it led to was male ducks having corkscrew-shaped penises. I did not know the vagina thing, but I did know the penis thing. I knew the penis thing,ises. I did not know the vagina thing, but I did know the penis thing. I knew the penis thing, too. I did not know the vagina thing. So the male ducks evolved to continue to be able to rape the female ducks?

I guess so. Yeah. Great. You'd love to hear that. Why do you two know about the shape of ducks' penises? I don't know. It's one of those things that you just know. Yeah.

I didn't know. According to True Crime and Taco Bell, babies don't have sinus cavities. I did not know that. I read that as well. I learned this from a very judgy urgent care doc when I thought my two-year-old maybe had a sinus infection. When do you develop sinus cavities? You gotta get them at some point. I don't know.

They also don't have kneecaps. Those develop along the way somewhere. Yeah, but like a sinus cavity is like a cavity. Yeah, but imagine how much a baby's head grows. So those cavities probably do form as the... I mean, London's head is already huge.

Well, she was born with a giant head, so she's really grown into it. Ooh, Sharna wants to know, how do you get London's eye makeup so perfect? Oh. Goodness. Goodness. Everyone, I was accused this week on my personal Instagram of putting eye makeup on my two-year-old. It's about time someone called you out. For the record, I've never once put makeup on her. She's fucking two.

She's just beautiful. She's just beautiful. She's just beautiful. She's just beautiful. Bob Moss Bailey says, in Utah, it is illegal to walk down a city street carrying a violin in a paper bag. Don't you even think about it. I was thinking about doing it.

That's a weird thing to have to create a law for. Is this real? Woods, comma, L says cats are the only domesticated animal not mentioned in the Bible. Really? They don't talk about cats in the Bible? Nobody's got cats? There's not like a cat lady? Not up on my Bible stories.

I don't know. I'll take your word for it. Thank you everyone for sharing your fun facts Yeah that was wonderful And Casey thank you for being here Yes thank you so much It was wonderful Was it fun when we were harassing you and you thought you'd never finish the story?

Yeah then not so much I did think it was going to take me like four hours to get through the story We like to start it out rough That's right Well thank you everyone for joining us to get through the story. We like to start it out rough. That's right. Well, thank you everyone for joining us for another bonus episode. We appreciate your support.

You make this easier for us to do. We make love and fun. Yeah. You make love and fun. Anyway, that was a little Fleetwood Mac for you. I do love some Fleetwood Mac. Of course you doesn't. And on that note, bonus episode adjourned.

And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. Thank you. titled A Walk in the Rain. An article on Medium.com by Robin Barefield called Betrayal of Trust, The Murder of Sonia Ivanov. The Gnome Nugget, Owen's Murder Conviction Stands by Sandra L. Medeiros. Now, I meant to bring this up earlier, and I totally forgot. The newspaper in Gnome is called The Gnome Nugget.

That's really cute. It's cute, I like it. It is cute. Because of gold, yes. We get it. I like it. And then also I use a couple. Yes. We get it. I like it. And then also I use a couple of websites. Visit nomalaska.com

and nomalaska.org. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.