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CIA Used Psychics To See The Future: The Secret Remote Viewing Program That Sent Psychic Spies on 500 Classified Missions, Plus Signs That You Might Have These Abilities | Dr. Edwin C. May

October 2, 20260 comments♥ 0
00:00 The brain has more than five senses. We all use remote viewing whether you've heard of it. Explain for us what Stargate is. From 1975 for the next 20 years, the intelligence community to ask us with over 500 separate missions to collect intelligence. A Russian said he knows how telepathy works. That frightened the West. What was your role in the program?
00:25 Figure out how it works. There's only one form of using ESP to gather information from. and that's called precognition. Physicist Dr. Edwin C. May is one of the foremost authorities on parapsychology, remote viewing, and the expansion of human capability. Those 500 missions were spread across 19 federal agencies like NSA, CIA, State Department. It was kept secret? Totally.
00:51 China and Cuba, are they posing a threat? People tumbling under the North Korea, South Korean border. We are tasked, can we figure out which ton of we should go look at. What is your understanding as a scientist? Telepathy scares people. It's considered bizarre and crazy. Absolutely no doubt in my mind that a certain aspect of this is totally real. I have to tell you something that you won't believe.
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01:48 Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and on the Soul Boom podcast, I sit down with fascinating entertainers, thinkers, and doers to dig into the big questions, the meaning of life, death, the soul, God, mental health, personal transformation. And to be honest, a little bit of idiocy. Together we explore this strange human experiment. and whether ancient spiritual wisdom tools can help with modern problems and how we might become slightly better human beings while we're at it. So come and join the spiritual revolution. Soul Boom with Rain Wilson. Watch or listen on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your
02:19 stupid podcasts. Hi, I'm MyM Bealek. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. Whether you're a skeptic, a true believer, or maybe you're curious about one of the most controversial subjects in science. This episode is going to a challenge all assumptions you have and leave you questioning what is really possible in this reality as well as the future. Today we're speaking to Dr. Edwin C. May. He was interested in Cy Phenomenon before anyone was talking about it and he joined the ongoing U.S. government sponsored work at what was formerly the Stanford Research Institute and then became the Stargate program. Dr. May is one of the foremost authorities, not only on remote viewing, but on the feasibility of human capability. He has managed complex interdisciplinary
03:17 research projects for the federal government and has accumulated dozens of years of research into understanding the phenomena of remote viewing, as well as its limitations. Ed is going to talk to us about how remote viewing was used across all agencies of the government, from CIA to FBI, DEA, NASA, and so many more agencies continue to come back to that team because of their success. He's done hundreds of studies and published hundreds of reports exploring what are the best ways to access the skills of those who seem to be intuitively gifted at remote viewing. If you've listened to our episode with Angela Ford, he has worked extensively with Angela. He's the guy.
04:03 who has really touched every single remote viewer that you have heard of who has worked for the government. He's done extensive research and exploration across Russia to figure out what they know about remote viewing that we can learn from. He's also going to explain what makes the best remote viewer, how they do it differently, what happened when they tried to implement a protocol and teach it in a very specific way, what went wrong and what not to do if you want to become a remote viewer. If you're curious to learn more about the Stargate era and all of the research since then, please go to lFR.org. And you'll probably be surprised to hear that Dr. May describes himself as a staunch materialist,
04:47 and he's going to explain why. It's a pleasure to welcome to the breakdown, Dr. Edwin C. May. Break it down. Dr. Edwin May, welcome to the breakdown. Thank you. My pleasure. I wonder if you can start us off by explaining how you, got from kind of your scientific origin to the world of parapsychology? What was that transition
05:11 like? I was 35 years old as a postdoctoral person at the University of California and Davis, California, during physics. And I had never heard of anything like extrace sensory perception my whole life or an out-of-the-body experience. None of that. I saw an advert as I was bored, He said, please come in here about out-of-body experiences by Bob Monroe. Never heard of that guy before. Okay. Nothing else to do. I go, and I listen for about an hour.
05:43 And he's talking about this magnificent thing that he did. He gets out of his body, and he goes, he pinched his girlfriend on the butt and raised a welt. I said, yeah, sure, sure. So I bought the book that he had. It's called Journeys Out of the Body, and it's on my shelf here somewhere. read it in two settings, and the next thing I know, I tried it. And nothing worked. I said, this is ridiculous. I stick it back in the shelf. So I was doing some physics at UC Berkeley doing some work, and I saw another flyer this time by a guy named Chuck Onerton. Come in here, the science of extrasensory
06:23 perception. I said, oh, yeah, science, go BS, that's nonsense. When I went and listened to him, And by God, he was talking science. I thought, really? That's fantastic. So I invited him to go to dinner. And we talked and he for about two hours over dinner. And he had all the right answers to really difficult questions I asked him. And he became my mentor, actually.
06:45 And that got me started in this field. Maybe it is worth looking into. What did you come to understand about the science of paranormal, extra sensory perception, what is your understanding as a scientist? The brain has more than five senses. I mean, that's news. You know, echolocation and magnetic field sensing and all that. Let's focus on the big five that we're all used to.
07:14 And the idea is that every one of those sensory systems are better when things are changing in front of them. Like somebody walks in the room there with too much cologne on, you notice it immediately, and then the technical terms you habituate to it, right? So you get used to it. So I thought, well, if ESP, if the S and ESP is really a sensory system, there must be something that when that thing is changing, you get better responses than if that's not changing.
07:46 And by God, we found it. I'll say it technically and then we'll drop it. And that is the gradient of entropy of the target system. And it works. It works beautifully well. We've made tremendous progress, my colleagues and I, especially after Stargate's gone away. I wonder if you can explain for us what Stargate is, pretend like no one knows. Get us into that phase of history.
08:13 I joined the program in late 1975, but the program was started before that. And I saw some data that just blew me away with a guy by the name of Pat Price. who was a police chief in Burbank, California, and he used his, quote, psychic ability to find the bad guys. And he was really good at it. He was so good at it. He left our program and went off to work for the CIA directly. And he told one of the, his minder at CIA,
08:48 I'm going out to Las Vegas, and I'm going to die there. He went out to Las Vegas and dropped dead. and but later it was discovered that he was shoveling classified data to the Church of Scientology. He was a member of the Church of Scientology, and nobody knew about it at the time. What type of data was he sharing? One of the kidnapped victims early on in the 70s. Pat was able to go and pick out the perpetrators from mugshots of a whole lot of people, and he picked out the right people.
09:26 So the Stargate program, from my understanding, is using, for lack of a better term, sci abilities to get clues. We spoke to Angela Ford, who was using remote viewing to try and find information on fugitives. The mandate was to scale that. Is that accurate? Yes and no. Because we all complained bitterly because for the first decade of the program, we couldn't do basic research. and we're all screaming. We give us money to help figure out how this stuff actually works.
10:00 No, no, no, continue your spying activity. Yeah. Boring as hell, but we did it. Was there a race going on at that time between the U.S. and other countries to try to understand this technology and, and utilize it? Was it kind of a psychic arms race? I wish there were. There was not, because it's considered bizarre and crazy and probably not true by most people. except the Russians. The Russians are very, when I've been to Russia, to Moscow many times,
10:32 and out to Nova Sabirsk a couple of times. And they're falling all over themselves to be involved in some sort of psychic program one way or another. Here, literally, I had some money from the Air Force, about one and a half million dollars worth. And an Undersecretary of the Air Force and who will remain nameless said, kill that program.
10:54 it is the work of the devil, and they came and took our money back from the time of Luther and nailing his stuff on the board. What's happened is the West has taken mysticism out of the practice of religion. And the Roman Catholic Church gave their stuff in Latin. Who the hell knew anything about Latin? Nobody did hardly. But in Russia, there's nothing more mystical than going to a Russian Orthodox Church. What happens is, first of all, there's no pews. used to sit in. You walk in and hold a candle. Wow. That's great. And the priest comes in and never once looks at you. Not once. He comes walks in and there on the wall is an icon of one form or another. And he's mumbling something totally incoher to that icon. And then he walks out the door. What's more
11:45 mystical than that? Going back to the Stargate program, what was the initial mandate? What type of cases came across your desk? A Russian, Ippolette Mosevic, Kogan, who in 1969, and I have his paper in Russian and in English, said he knows how telepathy works. And, you know, like an AM radio station, you at 550 on the dial, and your voice modulates that. And that's how an AM radio actually works. And Kogan was saying, well, that's how telepathy works. You have a 10-hertz carrier, your beta rhythms in your brain, and your thoughts modulate that, and 10-hertz radiation will go all over the planet. Okay, years went by, and that frightened the West here. It really did.
12:39 God, if they could read our minds, this is really horrible. But when I first met Kogan, I said, Professor, it's an honor to meet you. I've got bad news and good news for you. And he said, what are you talking about? You're a model of how telepathy works is completely wrong. He says, oh, I'm so glad to hear you that because over time, I now believe it was wrong. Telepathy cannot possibly exist. I'll tell you why.
13:06 Suppose, let's do a little trial right now. Okay, I'm thinking of a number between one and 100. Tell me what it is, please. Any of either of you. 37. 17. Okay, I take a pistol out and shoot myself in the head. kill myself. I carry to the grave whether or not you've got it right. If I then say, instead of
13:27 killing myself, I say, hey, you got it right, then you don't have to get that information out of my mind. You use a precognitive ability because I tell you what the answer is. This is some of why, you know, so many people are trying to figure out, are there ways to appropriately, you know, measure an ability that is not only rare, but also has so much variability. And, you know, some of the stats on, you know, people who remote view. And absolutely, you know, we have people like Angela who are, you know, better than chance, right? I mean, that's pretty incredible. But I think there is sort of this question of what is going on?
14:09 The fact that all of these kind of, you know, abilities come along with, you know, synesthesia, I would say that's a place where we get to say what's going on that creates synesthesia, which might also be creating extrasensory perception. There are people who are decent remote viewers, to use that term, who are not synesthetes. So synesthetes is not a necessary condition for good functioning, but it's just a clue. 4% of the population are synestries. Back to try to answer your question, my colleague in India, who's the brains of the operation, came up with an idea and we've published it, and that is, there's only one form of using ESP to gather
14:52 information, and that's called precognition. You can peek into the answer book. For example, if you're taking an exam in college, oh boy, and you sneak into the professor's office and you study the answer book and come back to your, you're going to do really well on the exam, right? Well, if you could use your precognitive ability, if you have it, to look into the answer book hasn't been written yet, but it's going to be written in the future, but you're looking at it from a future perspective. That's how we think this stuff works. Mine Be Alex Breakdown is supported by Kava Haven. Jonathan, I feel like you have been looking for a way to relax and socialize.
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19:31 People talk about that all information is, you know, existing in some sort of plain. I mean, precognition is. presupposing that information exists as bits, right, or as code that you can access? Not necessary. It doesn't even exist yet. For example, if we're going to do a remote viewing, I'd call it my friend in India and say, tomorrow at whatever time, we have a set of photographs, 300 of them. I said, pick one of those photographs. Tomorrow pick it out. And I'll get back to you. So I have no idea which one she's going to choose.
20:06 and I sit down and say to you, okay, please access and describe a photograph. I'm going to show you tomorrow. And you can use your precognition to look at a photograph that hasn't even been chosen yet. The practical application for the government was... Well, it was mixed. For example, one thing was to assess whether a particular country, China, Cuba, whatever, are they posing a threat to us? For example, there were people tunneling under the North Korea and South Korean border,
20:43 and they were tunneling under that. And we were tasked, can we figure out which tunnels we should go look at and send the people out to dig into catch these people who are underground? It's interesting to think about North Korea. You know, that's so practical, right? Like there are people tunneling and they need to deploy Army or they need to do. deploy military operations to a specific location. They don't have AI at that point. So what they're asking for is evidence or suggestions. Were you guys able to direct them in a particular way?
21:22 Yes. We would, for example, one of the big applications was not for the military is for law enforcement. You may remember there was a big scandal in Washington, D.C., one of the members of the House of representatives was accused of murdering a girl. And no one could find evidence that that actually happened. And the girls of women's, young woman's father called up Joe and said, will you help us find this body if she's alive or not? And Joe put a pin in the map within 30 feet of the body. That type of specific story is so unbelievable because you're like, how could he possibly
22:06 No, you're not doing traditional detective work. What was the reaction when he's able to lead law enforcement to something that was otherwise hidden in that way? Delightful. Come to work for us. Are you kidding? I'm curious about the divide, right? Was it just like everyone accepted it? Or was there still backlash that like, this is nuts? And you guys are a bunch of like rogue psychics that must have gotten lucky. No, not true. Not simply not true. Let me give a. a non-statistical example. Suppose you want to open up a new restaurant where you live in, okay?
22:42 And you have modest amount of funding, and you find a place that only seats 19 people when the place is packed full, all right? And you've got the best chef in an area, and you have a great wine cellar and a waitstaff, and decor is beautiful. On opening night, you have 19 people
22:58 come up and fill up your restaurant. Fantastic. For the next week, 17 of those original 19 customers come back to your restaurant. What would you say about the quality of your restaurant? Pretty good. Gold star in your forehead, John Jonathan. From 1975 for the next 20 years, various elements of the intelligence community had tasked us with over 500 separate missions to collect intelligence.
23:23 Those 500 missions were spread across 19 federal agencies like NSA and CIA and State Department and what have you. of those 19 agencies, 17 of them returned with additional new missions. Even the skeptical CIA came back, 41 separate new missions. Was it perfect? Hell no, a long way from that, but good enough to solve some of their problems. And I have letters from NSA, and I've letters from them thanking the remote viewers because we were able to solve problems they were unable to solve. I don't think a lot of people realize that this service is being harnessed by all these different government agencies. But it wasn't shared with the public, right?
24:13 It was kept secret. Totally. Totally kept secret. Top. Like, no one spoke about it. You weren't allowed to share that information. That's why we had these funny names for them. How did you recruit new remote viewers?
24:29 Like, there was a training methodology that came out of Stanford that, you know, has circulated. That's terrible because it was a mistake. It wasn't supposed to be released, obviously. It was released. It was Engel Swan, a good friend of mine, he's no longer with us. He invented a training procedure. And when he tried to introduce it with the participants at SRI, Stanford Research Institute, we had a re-boldened in our hands.
24:55 Because Ingo was a very colorful character. He says, content be damned, structure is all that matters. We said, no, you got that backwards ingo. We don't care about your damn structure, but content is what we're doing this for. And unfortunately, that started a problem. And I will use a phrase, a strange phrase, and then tell you who invented that phrase. It spawned a Ingo-Swan cult. And the Ingo-Swan cult still exists today, and it drives up those of us nuts.
25:30 But the man who invented that term was Ingo-Swan cult. himself. So the Ingles Swan divide, the cult that developed, he believed that you needed a specific structure that all viewers should have a specific way of doing things. And anyone who violated from that is not doing the collection of data properly. Yes, and that doesn't work. So when we spoke to Angela Ford, one of the things she brought up is that, and I forget the exact distinction she made, but she said she would go out of body. And when this protocol came in, she said, you shouldn't go out of body. You should only get information in a different way. But then she was like, well, you're limiting my greatest capability of how I get information.
26:14 So, you know, it's this divide between is this a science or is it an art? Because if it's pure science, then you want it to be replicatable by the same methods, by the same steps and the same models. The psychologists use the term individual differences. We, my former colleagues in Brazil hosted a meeting in Washington, not classified at the time, to there were five top-of-the-line remote viewers and three managers. I was one of the managers. And what was interesting and not at all surprising, no two people of those five excellent remote viewers did their work the same way.
26:57 One person did it by dreaming. Someone, Nevin Lance, a psychologist. He did it by sitting across the table in a very professional sort of way and so on. Everybody did a dip in Angela Ford starts her stuff out with automatic writing. And then she turns the paper over and gets to work. So there is no single way in which one can have this experience. If this stuff is real and our estimate is about 1% of selected populations have data that can be verified in the laboratory. It's probably larger than that because, you know, we didn't, we surveyed 600 people at various, like SRI and the alumni of Stanford University and so on.
27:41 But probably, if that's wrong by a factor of 10, that's still 10% of the population have the ability to muster under laboratory double bond conditions. That's extraordinary. Now, people, there's a guy named Rick Stanford no longer with us, a psychologist from New York University. He wrote a paper on how people use their unconscious sciability to make their life easier. And I have a firsthand experience like that myself. I was living in San Francisco at the time. And a friend of mine was coming out from the East Coast to a conference in downtown San Francisco. He says, let's meet out in front of the United States.
28:24 He says, let's meet out in front of the hotel at 5 p.m. And we'll go have a nice meal here in San Francisco. All right, except it's rush hour. And I'm thinking, oh, man, I gave a hundred different excuses why I can't leave to meet him in front of the hotel at 5 o'clock. And I know he's going to be really pissed off. This is before cell phones and all that kind of silliness. And so finally, I get in the car and I drive down there. I'm an hour late.
28:51 I pull up in front of the hotel. My friend comes running out of the hotel. How long have you been here? I said, we just got here. Oh, thank God. I was being held up. I couldn't possibly reach you. I didn't know how to reach you.
29:02 There's an example of my using my unconscious sciability, and I don't claim to be a big psychic, no way. And I maneuvered life to work out the way. When you claim that you're not at all psychic, what was your role in the program? Figure out how it works and design protocols. I'm really good at both of those things. How do you design a protocol when every, Everyone does it differently.
29:25 We had what was called a scientific oversight committee, but we have a number of different committees. That is where initially we had 11 of the top scientists in the country at various disciplines. And they were chosen by an undersecretary of the Army to watch over us. The only thing that we could do is bring a room full of people, try to have them do remove viewing, the 10 best people who have them come in one at a time and do a very careful double bond controlled study. And of those, about 1% met our criteria. Where would you recruit from? It's a, it's a strange thing to post on a job board. Believe me, it was. We sampled people from the
30:13 Mensa Society. So we had groups of people like that, including SRI. We went, we had a round bag lunch. It was advertised over the, over the Gupid SRI. And what was fun about that is that we sat in a room and these guys showed up. And one fellow was sitting in the front row with his arms crossed like this. Oh, yeah, right. He didn't buy one thing about it at all. But he scored high enough of the room full of 50 people to get the second rounderout. And he scored the best of the second round.
30:45 He says, I'll buy this story. I don't care if you buy it or not. You're damn good at the job. Does being smart like a MENSA candidate or a person a part of MENSA, does that actually make you worse at this because you have to quiet the intellect? We don't understand it well enough to answer that question. What you don't want to, it's like trying to pay golf. My wife convinced me to play golf. And if you're a physicist, you should be able to play golf.
31:11 And it turns out because I'm a physicist, I'm thinking too much of my damned head instead of just swinging the club and get off of the game. Same thing happens This way. If you want to do anything, like run 100 yards in 10 seconds, and you're in your head thinking, well, gee, I might stumble on the way and all these kinds of stuff in your head, you're not going to do as well. Or, you know, you're afraid of the big slope on the mountains and you're skiing. You're going to go tumbling.
31:36 So this isn't anything new for psychic functioning. It's the way we humans screw it up. Do you believe that anyone can learn to do this? We're friends with Julia Mossbridge? No, absolutely. not. Okay, so talk about that because some people like Julia Mossbridge believe, like, I could teach you to do it right now. I don't get it. She's so full of it. I know her really well. We're good friends. That's bullshit. And I'll tell you why. For example, you could get higher the best track and
32:04 failed person in the world to teach me to do high jumping, all right? That's right. You're going to hit a limit, though. And I can clear six without a problem. Inches, not feet. You cannot train a natural ability. And that's in track and field. It said you can't train anything, including ESP. You can't train people to do it. We did a session with Maim where she tried to train, teach Maim to do a remote viewing. And she picked a target. We didn't know what the target was. She didn't know, Julia didn't know what the target was. The target was, it turned out to be the seventh picture on my phone's camera roll. Okay. All right. So we go through the this entire exercise. And I didn't have the guts to say to her, Julie, I think you're full of it,
32:51 like you just said. How'd you do, though? I don't even understand what we were doing. And I'm a very, like, I'm a very rational mind. I have a lot of ego that just like holds on to every time. I'm trained as a neuroscientist. And I said to her, I don't know what the fuck we're doing. And she's like, that's the fun of it. And I'm like, I don't think this is fun. I can conduct a remote viewing session using Zoom with you in your house. We would love that. But I want to explain a little bit the way that Julia explained the process that she was walking mine through, both because I think our audience is curious about the theory. And maybe you have a different explanation of how you would describe it.
33:30 She had a board. So yeah, one side, I was allowed to write words. She would ask me things. I'd write words. And the other side, I was supposed to put feelings and pictures. So you're trying to move away from the logical side. And then those symbols, were then more, and this look, this also was in the middle of a podcast. It was for demonstration purposes. It wasn't for, you know, then this was her first time. But what the idea was is that you are trying to quiet the rational mind a little bit, which is why I asked sort of about, you know, the people who are overly analytical.
33:59 Can they put that down a little bit? And then, you know, allow that receptive, non-language part of your brain to sort of open in a way. And just in my own life, I've been extremely logical and rational, and I've through meditation and breathwork and trying to move outside of that, especially when I'm not overly busy at work, because work is an energy of getting things done. I feel like I have an ability to open that other receptive side up. Now, would I ever be a good remote viewer? Maybe not. But I do feel that people can train to be more receptive than not. No, they cannot be.
34:44 Literally. I mean, my God, we spent literally millions of your tax dollar money to try to find a way to train military officers or anybody else to do spying missions. And we were unable. We failed categorically at that. And one of the reasons is everybody's different. And so it might work for you to train, in other words, to teach you. Actually, there's a book you can buy by Joe McMonagall called Remove Viewing Secret. And there's not one piece of data paragraph in that whole book about what to do is all.
35:18 Everything in that book is what's not to do. What are the top things not to do? Worry about it. Mindy Alex. Breakdown is supported by Jones Road Beauty. Not sure this will be surprising to anyone. I'm pretty specific about my makeup routine. I like a natural look, but I also want to feel natural.
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39:02 vibrate behind their products. For a limited time, our listeners get $20 off the waiver vibration plate plus free shipping with code breaker at lifeprofitness.com. That's lifeprofitness.com. Use the code breaker for $20 off. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Support our show. Let them know we sent you. Everyone that I come from, we don't know how to not worry. Are you Jewish by some sense? Yes, I am. Very good guess. Me too, except that I'm a non-observant Jew. It doesn't matter. Our genetics are the same. That's the analytical, right? Like, you have to, if you're, if the number one thing is not to worry, what we're saying is that either you're genetically able to quiet that part or you're not.
39:51 My perspective is just personally, this is only for me. I can't say what would happen for other people. I can train myself or I can change my state to be more or less worried. and then maybe I'm unlocking whatever natural ability I have or not. So I'm not changing my natural ability, but I'm changing how much I can access my ability. There's a bell curve of ability, you know, and there's a ceiling effect to certain skills.
40:18 I'm a decent piano player, but I will, no matter how many hours I train, I will never be Rahman enough. Like, I will never be at that level. Exactly true. I'd love to hear you say that. Right. Thank you. I mean, my mother would say you could do anything.
40:36 You could be president of the United States if you want. And I would tell her as a child, you're wrong. But what we're talking about is there's a ceiling effect, right, to certain, you know, a cultivation of ability. But I think what is important and hopefully I would think, Ed, you know, might be something hopeful is that if you were to take someone who, let's say, like me, you know, grew up very anxious, I operated. Like, I rev high. I'm a type A person, you know, that's me. At a certain point in life, it was suggested to me that there's a set of skills which I could learn, which can lower my nervous systems, you know, kind of startle reflex. It can, you know, try and calm the system down.
41:18 And those are techniques of like learning how to, you know, access your vagus nerves natural ability to calm you down. Like tap into the sympathetic nervous system system, right? Like all these things. Like try and activate those things. It's our understanding, you know, from most of the people we've spoken to in this space, that it's in that state, a state that many of us find very hard to get to. It's in that state of being able to quiet all of that noise that in many cases information drops in or things feel like he'll say like, oh, I feel it in my body. I don't know what that means. I'm like one of those people just like, you know, cut off at the thyroid.
41:57 But that's sort of the understanding is that once people are taught to, they call it dropping in, right? Once you drop in and you learn that as a skill, it is a muscle that you can exercise and strengthen. So people who study TM, for example, they are practicing, right, a state of getting to that like theta place. Like those are things you can entrain. Well, there's something else that's underneath all of this. the Army folks at Fort Meade try to convince people this stuff is very, very reliable and accurate.
42:37 And it's terrible, actually, like other human experiences, it's terrible. For example, Joe McMonicle is one of the best remote viewers it is, and I have 1,500 of his trials where there's a way I'll leave the statistics aside. There's a 20% chance he'd get it, I had luck alone. But he was scoring 44% accuracy of his data.
43:02 100 minus 44. He failed. Correct. We have judging procedure of one and five photographs, one of which is the right answer. Okay? And all right, so either got it right or got it wrong. There's no in between here.
43:20 And that's one statistic. There are better statistics now than that. But nonetheless, Joe got 44% of his data out of 1,500 trials where he gave the right answer. 44%. So 100 minus 44 is whatever it is. I don't do arithmetic in my head very well. It's 56. That's how many times he failed.
43:39 If you have to choose one of five things, you have a 20% chance of being correct, just statistically. Meaning, you know, like that's just so what we're saying is that even the best remote viewers are about doubling that. So that means that if you're like, where's the dead body? You've got less than a 50% chance that they're going to get it right. It's still remarkable. And we're still talking about like, what? Where's this information? How are they even seeing anything?
44:07 Double chance is still, again, I'm not a mathematician or a statistician. I'm a writer. So I like a good story. But still, that means that's a significant improvement over chance alone. You bet. big time. The statistics of that are off the charts. Will you allow me to be a little bit geeky here? Please. Turn on the geek switch. Yes, please. We invented a procedure, which goes by the name figure of merit. And figure of merit is how accurately was the remote view describing the target. But that's not
44:46 enough to let you know whether remote viewing was good or not, because someone could read the Encyclopedia Britannica is the answer, they will get 100% accurate regardless what the target is. So to control that, we said, okay, out of all the things you said, what percentage of what you said were correct? Those two numbers, we multiply together to get the figure of merit. And I have to tell you something that you won't believe, but it's true, that if the figure of merit above a certain level almost never fails of predicting the output of the experiment. In my job right now,
45:23 working with some neuroscientists in Brazil, is to figure out, we have actually made tremendous progress on how it works. So we take the problem space and divide it into two and a half chunks. One chunk is, how the hell does the data get
45:39 from tomorrow in India to right here in front of your nose today? That is 100% of physics problem, and the physicists looking at that don't have to know anything at all about ESP or any of it and probably wouldn't believe it. There's actually a whole physics domain called quantum retrocausation, which talks about information going backward in time. We didn't invent that.
46:01 Okay, so once the data is here to your nose, how does it get into the damn brain? That's a big problem. We have no idea how that works. But once it's in the brain, neuroscience takes over, and neuroscience can approach that problem without having to be. having to worry about how it got there in the first place. We have testable models of how precognition might work. If you have too much going on in your brain worrying about we brought that up earlier,
46:27 you're not going to do well in anything in their life. It's a little bit of an indictment of her. She's done okay so far, but she could do better. I've been nominated for five Emmys and I haven't won one. If you're less worried, you made of won a few more. I'm the other way around. I believe too many things too fast. and get screwed about that a lot.
46:49 But the point is that we have some idea and testable idea about how to measure the amount of cross-talk there isn't a brain. And that's what we're looking at now. Do you know what our DIT, diffusion tensor imaging, you know that term in neuroscience? No. Look it up. It's really important because what we're able to do with D.I. DTI is track the neural pathways to the white matter of the brain.
47:22 And if there are a lot of neural pathways, we are positing a, we don't know whether it's true or not, but if you have lots of neural pathways in the brain, that you're probably likely to be a better psychic than if you don't have as many. And that DTI is the way of measuring that quantitatively. So that's partially what could be contributing to precognition. Yeah. And we don't know how the information gets there. That's what we're looking at is what is the quality, quality of the receiver, the brain.
47:56 Are there cases or information, types of information that remote viewing is better for than others? For example, you know, when you speak about Angela doing tests on the stock market, the pure materialist will say, well, if this is possible, why doesn't everyone just win the lottery? What we know about the nature of remote viewing. First of all, people get tired immediately. And we also have what's called bit rate, very reasonable estimate of what the bit rate for that channel is. Bitrate means, well, if you want to listen to your favorite concert and you'd listen to it through two tin cans and a piece of string, it'll sound terrible because the bit rate possibility of a vibrating string is terrible compared to FM radio or or, other schemes. So we have a bit rate such that if you were to win the lottery, it would take 50 straight hours of being psychic to win the lottery to get enough information with the
48:57 terrible bit rate of how ESP works. It's awful. Well, you know what? But you know who does that? Who meditates for that long? Monks. Monks and Kabbalists. They used to have days-long meditations. They would sit in meditation for days. have been studies of the monks who spent 30 years meditating and they're no better good than somebody who's never even tried meditation. But they're less anxious. Yeah. This to me is like the biggest conundrum I have that I can't quite reconcile the notion that people who are doing these practices are no better than people who aren't, especially if the first rule in what not to do is not to worry. You would think that the meditation practice is, you know, tackling the first rule of what not to do.
49:47 So that's one less thing down on the list that would get you better at this. There are huge amounts of literature on exactly that point. Does meditation help you do remote viewing or Gonsfeld techniques or any of the other techniques that are flying around? It doesn't work. What are the other four things not to do? They're different for every person. some people would be fine to sit down there and say okay in fact nevin lance one of our top remote viewers a psychologist he likes to sit down across a desk from me and he does this like it is just
50:20 straight-ass physics he works on a stimulus response basis i say nevin please access and describe a photograph i've got to show you at about 20 minutes and access to that is through the keyword now so when he hears now he gives me a one sentence answer what does he say Give me an example. Like what, what? Like, you show a picture of a horse riding a tricycle, and he says horse riding a tricycle. No, no, no, no.
50:47 This is all double blind. I don't know what the target is. But how accurate are his descriptions of these images? Pretty good. Well, what's pretty good, Ed? Come on. I give you numbers. You want numbers?
50:59 I do. Well, I want to know, like, this is the thing that a lot of people say. Like, oh, everything is so vague. It's kind of like when you go to a, you know, a magician or a mentalist. And it's like, oh, they're like getting like a little bit close. And so, but you're talking about a level of precision. Like Angela Ford was like, this is where the guy is, right?
51:20 Like she had the name of the town. She was off by one letter, right? That's what I want. Yes, and Nevin does exactly the same thing. Got it. Everybody works differently. And what would work well for Nevin sitting across the table with me would cause Angela to go bonkers.
51:36 So the bit rate for ESP is far too low for the lottery because there's so many variables in the lottery. It's too complicated a data set. What types of data sets are easier? It was a binary option market. So she either got it right or got it wrong. And we made $8,000. But you can imagine if you increase the investment, you could have. have made exponentially more. I'll tell you what. I had a big fight with my boss from Brazil.
52:12 George wanted to replicate the study of Angela Ford. And I said, fantastic. You guys got some people in Brazil. I'm ready to go down to Brazil and advise them how to do a proper protocol and all that. He says, no, no, we're going to do it over with Angela Ford. And both of you guys know that's a huge mistake. Maybe there's a mistake in our protocol. Maybe. And if you just just has us to do it again, we'll commit the same mistake. The way you need an independent replication, us doing the same thing is not an independent replication, and we ended up splitting apart. He was furious with me about that.
52:52 And we tried it, and it didn't work. She could not remote view her way out of a paper bag the second time around. What do you make of that? Borg out of her minds. She's just, the novelties off. You just can't keep doing the same job over and over and over and over and over. again, whether you're an athlete or whether you're a psychic. I can't help but sort of think of this on, you know, somewhat of like a systems level.
53:16 What are we actually saying? And novelty matters a lot to the brain. Novelty matters. Patterns matter. And fatigue matters, you know, like Angela Ford, when we spoke to her, like, you know, there's a chillness about her. Like she's a chill person. But she also, you know, when you talk to her, she had many experiences. as a child of leaving her body and talking to entities that other people could not see. So there's something different. And this is sort of, you know, what our interest is here on this podcast. You know, what can we quantify? What can't we? And what can we say, you know, about what it means for our larger brain capacity, our consciousness, reality itself, you know? We speak to many, you know, theoretical physicists in particular who are like, oh, well, we're all wearing virtual reality goggles, which, you know,
54:07 is also kind of what Plato said and what, you know, all the mystics have said for thousands of years, right? None of this is real and this is all of some sort of projection or it's a simulation. But, you know, there's certain things that we know about, let's say, the brain in its capacity. And it's, you know, that is a limiting factor. We have a candidate for you for remote viewing. This was an actor who we spoke to recently, our friend Lisa Kudrow, our new friend. She describes an experience where she. believes in siabilities
54:39 and she was like I just want to check in on my husband her husband was out in Joshua Tree and so she like got calm quieted herself she had never done this she had not ever been taught she didn't know a protocol and she just kind of like
54:55 sent her awareness to her husband and then just kind of looked around and her husband was supposed to be camping in Joshua Tree in tents she saw a building and some chairs and a fire pit and she saw cigars, and she's like, well, that's not accurate. Because she knew they were supposed to be camping, not near buildings or chairs.
55:15 So she goes, she hangs out, she looks around, she sees all this information. She then comes back to herself. She said she felt extremely tired afterwards. And then the next day, she speaks to her husband, and there was a change of plans. Instead of going camping, they went into town to a restaurant, sitting around. a fireplace at the location smoking cigars by a fire pit. That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Why doesn't that surprise you?
55:47 Why? Because if she's a competent remote viewer, she's telling you what her experiences. She's never done this before in her life. It doesn't matter. We all use remote viewing whether you've even heard of it. There's a natural ability for some people have some people. Most people do not have a good ability, but they have some. And we use that on a day-to-day basis to make your life easier.
56:11 And that's the case what just happened. I love it. And you just, and I love your classification that she's now a remote viewer because she's done it one time and that she just seems she just has that ability. Yeah. And if she is curious, I'm happy to run a session with her online. I'll text her right now. Mime is texting her right now. Mime should go to the session two, although she's going to compare herself to Lisa.
56:34 And then it's going to be a big problem. But also like, what does this mean? I have to go through, I'm 50 years old, I have to go through life knowing I can never remote view. I just didn't get that. No, it's ridiculous. I do other things. I'm a very good tap dancer and I'm an excellent whistler. As soon as Stargate and the CIA start a whistling program, you are going to be the first recruit.
56:54 I'm a great whistler. My grandfather was also a great whistler. And you know what he was during World War II? A dental assistant. I'd love to hear a little bit more about some of the backlash that you got because What struck me earlier in the conversation was you saying that someone in the Army, a general, thought this was playing with demonic forces. And I think, you know, you have the data and we're talking about this from a very scientific level,
57:24 but it's true that people think peering into the future or being able to use this type of ability is it's crossing the line, right? There's people. It scares people. And I understand that. Telepathy scares people, even though it's impossible to do telepathy. They get, why you're reading my brain? That's my private world. Why are you doing that? Anything that really fundamentally challenges your worldview is scary. We spoke to Chris Bletso not long ago. And he tells us about this experience that he had being abducted by what he calls aliens. you can see that he's still impacted by what he saw in that day, in a way that, you know, just is profound. So I think anything that's going to shatter your worldview of this is how the world works is going to be very dangerous to you. Well, it could be, but it also could be thrilling to you.
58:27 Hey, I thought the world worked this one. Wait a minute. This is a much better way to approach life. Unless you're getting pushback from people, right? unless you're getting ostracized, unless those people who feel scared are going to then come attack, either emotionally or psychologically. Well, I'll tell you something. It'll probably surprise you.
58:45 I much prefer skeptics than I do believers. Believers buy ink nonsense. And I've learned more from skeptics than from believers. I mean, your shirt says deny everything. Yeah. You continue a few times in the interview to say, if it works or if it's real. And yet you have the data to explain that it's far more than chance. Absolutely, no doubt in my mind that a certain aspect of this stuff is totally real.
59:15 I can demonstrate that by a variety range from sociological issues to actually hard-blind statistics, by reviewed by everybody. The fact is that the U.S. government and its 19 agencies kept coming back. Actually, the all-time winter crossed the bay from where I'm sitting in Alameda after the Cold War was over, their remit was to interdict boats coming into California Territory of Waters carrying drugs. They came back to us 171 different missions. All to spot drugs on boats coming in. But it did work, and they were very pleased.
59:55 So given these repeated customers that are probably, start off skeptical. These are law enforcement agencies in the government. We're not talking about people sitting under trees, channeling angels. We're talking about pragmatic people in law enforcement with real world outcomes that they're trying to get. And they're using these skills. Does that translate into anything that you understand about reality and how consciousness works and how being human works? No. I mean, we humans,
01:00:37 what's wonderful about we humans, we're all different. The psychologists refer to that as individual differences. I'm what's called a materialist. You know, the difference for materialism and non-materialism? Yeah, it strikes me that it's very
01:00:50 difficult to understand you as a materialist with all the data that you have about people like Angela and Joseph who are clearly breaking the rules of materialism? No, they're not. Why do you say that? They're not at all breaking the rules.
01:01:07 I don't think a materialist can believe in precognition. Truth they can. Because I can quantify it. I can meet all the necessary aspects of hard-ass science to do those kinds of studies, and it works. That's materialism. Materialism has to do with, let's talk about whether we survive our bodily deaths or not. Do we survive our bodily deaths, in your opinion? None whatsoever.
01:01:33 And what brings you to that belief? I've not felt that way my entire life. What's interesting, is Angela would say that you do? No, Angela might, I don't care. There are other people that disagree with that. But the woman I work with, she is an Indian philosopher, psychologist, and she doesn't believe in survival after bodily death either. What about near-death experiences?
01:01:59 What's your take on those experiences? This was not an organization studying near death, but they decided to look at near death, and they spent $5 million and set out hiring the best people they could hire across the country at different universities and different disciplines to study the phenomenon of near-death experiences. What came out of that was that it was a standard procedure having nothing to do with surviving somebody's death.
01:02:29 That's a tough issue for people. And my sonality and I argued daily about it with our colleagues about it whether near death is, can you survive your bodily death? And the answer, if you're a materialist like we both are, I'm comfortable with the idea that when I take my last breath, it's going to be my last breath. And it's like going to sleep. Gone. Right. But we obviously, we speak to people. One gentleman, you know, was zipped up in a body bag.
01:02:57 his consciousness observed the whole thing. He reported things that happened in the next room. He was locked at a bathroom and passed out and died. He was zipped into a body bag and driven to the hospital. He was dead on site by the paramedics. And this went on for, I mean, he was gone for almost two hours. And a rogue paramedic, he remembers seeing the paramedic have a thought. And the thought was, this guy's not dead.
01:03:22 And he opened the bag and he revived this man. while he watched his own body be revived. And like, I've got a hard time as a scientist, you know, explaining around that and people are, oh, well, the pulse must have been hard to find. Like, I don't know how many people are dying and we don't know and we're zipping them up and burying them. I don't know.
01:03:43 Joe was in Vienna. And he basically was poisoned because he was doing counter-narcotics for the army. And he was at the hospital showing no signs of life whatsoever. ever. He was actually clinically dead. They brought him back. Who is he poisoned by? I don't know the answer to that, nor does he. That's, yeah, it's terrifying. What do you think has prevented this from becoming more widely accepted, given the data and the success rates, given all the agencies that have come back? There isn't currently an active program. Is that, is that accurate? I think that's accurate. I hope it's wrong. You're hoping that there's some other version of it that's underground
01:04:29 or top secret somewhere? We need it because it's a good way of gathering intelligence. And the more intelligence country A can have, the less likely he's going to get involved in a war like in Iran, for example. Funny thing about that. You know, it's more than saying should we or shouldn't we do this. You would build scenarios and ask questions about probability of negative outcomes. Is that accurate? Sure, of course. What else should we keep in mind for people who are thinking about this area? It's a challenge. It truly is a challenge, and I'm thrilled by the challenge of it. And, you know, I'm 86. If I last another 10 years, it'll be amazing. But I would like to be around long enough to hopefully some smarter people than I will figure out how it actually works. Now, if you know
01:05:14 in physics, there are four known forces in physics. There are two types of nuclear force and the electromagnetic force and then gravity. And Eric Fairlinda says, you know, gravity is the only one that doesn't have a quantum mechanical base to it. Let's ditch it. We don't need gravity. Even Einstein said it's not a force. He wants to replace it with what's called an entropic force. And I cannot wait to get to Amsterdam and have a conversation with this guy because he said he would replace the gravity with another kind of force involving entropy and tropic force. And I said, I would like to tell him, that we have done a great deal of work with a lot of trials and a lot of different trials and a lot of different protocols, that entropy is a very important part of all this works.
01:06:01 And I'd like to know maybe that's how backward causation comes, how it is possible for you to sit in the chair right now and know what's going to happen tomorrow. Well, we are excited and grateful for all of the work that you've put in for your entire career that has, you know, brought us here. You're one of those people who everyone is standing on your shoulders. So thank you for your work and for talking to us. Yeah, thank you so much for coming today and for sharing your experience and your insight. We're really grateful.
01:06:29 Well, you guys asked really intelligent questions, and I appreciate that. Most of the time, I get bullshit questions. The thing that I remember most from this conversation with Dr. Edwin May is that he told me with my level of anxiety, I will never be a remote viewer. That's all I heard. I'm going to have to talk to my therapist about it. Julia would say otherwise. I would like to pit him and Julia against each other. Julia will be like, anyone can do it.
01:06:59 He'll be like, no, they can't. And would be like, F, no, they can't. He's been talking about this, you know, for over 50 years, you know, at least 50 years. And, you know, I think that the notion that's important to remember is that there are, you know, scientific things. theories and conversations around entropy about the way that things tend towards chaos. And when there are patterns that change, and there are patterns that change in ways
01:07:31 that are more coherent, there are people who seem to have, and it's not a lot of people, they seem to have an intuitive innate ability to sense that shift. And that tuning in to that shift, is what allows some access to information that exists. That's the best way to sort of understand it. And the thing that I'm drawing on is when we talk to people about transcendental experiences
01:08:03 and about psychedelic experiences, this is the notion. There's peace, there's love, there's wholeness. That piece is, I think, part of this entropy conversation. That place, that's the place where we're accessing something else. And yeah, you don't get there from a loud mind. You know, you, you know,
01:08:24 generally Thomas Campbell was probably that guy, you know, in college so that when he was like, oh, what's Transcendental Meditation? I'd like to go. He was like, oh, I'm often another aspect of the atmosphere and my consciousness just left my body, right? Those are people who are kind of more naturally tuned in. Do I believe that there's a set of kind of like skills
01:08:41 and things you can learn to tap into? Yes, but what I think was missing from our remote viewing exercise with Julia Mossbridge is she doesn't understand what's going on in here. Like I appreciate what he's talking about and I want to offer another hypothesis. Julia's notion that everyone is capable of doing it doesn't mean that they're able to do it right now. I've described my cellular release holotropic breath work where I went into that crazy state.
01:09:10 And if you haven't heard that story, come find me on Substack. And I will, I have to do a version of that story. I haven't done it yet. I was writing it up, haven't shared it. But it was a crazy trance-like experience that took over my entire body. For weeks after,
01:09:29 I had an opening to a psychic ability and a channel, a frequency, that whatever bit rate that he was talking about, that AM tuning channel, it was much more open than before. It got amplified. Exactly. So I think that where Julia,
01:09:47 comes from is that we all have an inherent capability as a birthright over time that gets not mangled but it gets obscured in certain ways and that either doing some work or revisiting that you can re-access it but I think what he what is what ed is right about is that not everyone can just like open up that channel at any time anywhere you know holotropic breath work is a rhythmic kind of breathing that's usually guided by, you know, an experienced person or practitioner, usually. And it is allowing you to access unordinary states of consciousness.
01:10:28 So the idea of what Jonathan's describing is not just like out there like hippie-dippy stuff. He's saying that a certain procedure that was facilitated allowed a shift in his consciousness and his access to that. And that once that was opened, and this is not unusual, trauma or, you know, painful memories that typically are hidden were easier to access. And that process then opened up some sort of window, right, or a portal that for a certain period of time, and you probably could have kept it going if you had like left your life
01:11:04 and gone to an ashram and like never come back, right? I think it was the second time I did holotropic breathwork. It might have been the first time. I had a very significant car accident and my hand was significantly damaged. And after this session, my hand froze in the position it was after my accident. And I could not open it. And it was astounding. It was in pain.
01:11:29 I mean, it was very bizarre. But it was as if that, you know, sent me to another time in my life. I wasn't thinking about it. I wasn't processing it. I had no conscious thinking during the holotropic breathwork about my accident. It had been, gosh, it had been. at least 10 years since my accident. And at least seven or eight years since my second surgery on my hand.
01:11:55 Anyway, that's the place that holotropic breathwork takes you. And it's very, very freaky. It's very freaky. We are going to do a substack on why it is that that breathwork could take you there. What is held in your hand that returns to the position that it was injured in? Yeah, we can also, I mean, talking about the science of holotropic breathwork is one of the things also that we can explore, go to biolicbreakdown.substack.com. We have content there that doesn't live anywhere else. So if you want it, you have to go to Substack. Also, if you're at the end of this episode,
01:12:25 it means that you like hanging out with us. Come hang out with us there. And we like you too. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you in the future of next time. It's my and B. R. X. Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience Ph.D. or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down. Hi. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, board certified OBGYN and menopause specialist. My podcast, Unpaused, is the place for bold, unfiltered conversations about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life. Every week, I sit down with medical experts and leading voices to talk about the health issues that matter most. Because Unpaused isn't just about the years you live, but how well you live them.
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