Cornell 7: Violence against women is a MAN’s problem
00:00Warning, this episode contains mention of rape, sexual harassment and abuse.Hi, Media Stormers, it's Helena here.This week, we want to bring back an episode we recorded at the end of 2024.It was recorded at a time which felt like a reckoning for women's safety.At the time, two harrowing stories sent shockwaves around the world.In France, Dominique Pelico was standing trial for recruiting 72 men to join himin drugging and raping his then-wife,Chiselle, over the course of a decade.
00:39And in Kenya, Ugandan Olympian Rebecca Chetegaywas burned alive after being set on fire by her ex-boyfriend.News stories like these about gender-based violence are sadly not rare.Daily headlines about male violence against women are commonplace.And every couple of years,there's a story so horrendous, so sickening and so scary,that it feels like it's propelling the world,winds of change. Giselle Pelico's story felt like that. It felt like, finally, people are paying
01:09attention. Finally, the world can see just how much danger women are in, even in their own homes.But over time, the furor dies down, the victim-blaming comments start again, and everythingjust seems to go back to normal. This is not to say that it's all for nothing, far from it.Giselle Pelicoe has become an international figure for women's strength.By waving her anonymity and having the trial in public,she proudly declared about the men who abused her that the shame is theirs.What she has done for womankind everywhere cannot be underestimated.But I'm reminded how far there is to go when another harrowing story is brought to international attention.
01:49This time it's the Cornell 7.This actually happened in 2024, but it's only being talked about now,because the victim, called Jane Doe to protect her anonymity,is suing Cornell University for the handling of her case.Not only that, it was actually female student journalists at the Cornell Daily Sun,the campus student newspaper, who broke the story two years later in their pursuit of justice.Jane Doe, also a student at Cornell, already intoxicated,was forced to take ketamine, drink hard spirits,
02:23and was repeatedly raped and assaulted for hoursby seven members of the Kai-Fi fraternity at Cornell University.There are many details I could talk about nowand I encourage everyone to read widely about the case,especially the way Cornell handled or didn't handle the case.Only two of the male students were expelled.For others, their punishment was as small as writing an essayabout their wrongdoing.
02:49It tells us so much about how far institutions will go to protect men,and how little women's lives and careers are valued.Jane Doe, by the way, dropped out of Cornell.But what I want to focus on in this episode is not necessarily the Cornell 7.It's the Cornell 57, a Snapchat group made up of 57 male Cornell students of this fraternity,called Kai Phi Activs.While Jane Doe is in their fraternity house, far too intoxicated to consent to sexual activity,one member writes that there is, and I quote,
03:23free pussy available in their house.Another member of the group wrote,Like, you can walk in and whip it out.Boys, come whip it out.Another asked, shop still open?After an image of Doe was sent,and he received an affirmative reply.And perhaps most terrifyingly,
03:43another man wrote that he hoped this timethe woman would be more to his liking.Seven men assaulted and raped Jane Doe,but 50 other men stood by and didn't stop it.72 men assaulted and raped Giselle Pelico.But thousands more were on the same website her ex-husband used,and thousands stood by and didn't stop it.When the spotlight is turned on stories like these,
04:14I don't know about you, but I feel that it is always, always women who lead the charge.Always women educating people on the nuances of trauma.It's always women's survivors speaking up about their stories to try and make it safer for other women too.It's always women bearing the burden of change.But there's a problem here.The Cornell 7 is a story about men.As a woman, it dominated my feed.But left to the algorithm, this story, a story which is so significant, won't reach men.
04:46Women engage with stories online about violence against them, mostly because it's unavoidable.but when algorithms are designed to show us the content that we already engage with, men aren't seeing it.It is men that should be talking about rape culture and what they're doing to end it.It is men that should be calling out dangerous other men.It is men that should be putting forward solutions to keep women safe.It is men that have the power to change other men in society.But in the media, the problem is labelled violence against women.men are literally being erased from their problem and then excused from the solution.
05:25In this episode of Media Storm, we flipped the script because if violence against women begins with men,it can also end with men.Here's our conversation with Daniel Guinness, the director of Beyond Equality,the UK charity that works with boys and men, and with writer, researcher and workshop facilitator,Nathaniel Cole.Don't forget to follow us.At Media StormPod everywhere, especially if you're a man.And if you're not, please send this episode to a male friend or family member.
05:57Become the unavoidable algorithm.An Olympic athlete has died in Kenya after her boyfriend allegedly doused her in petrol.A pensioner accused of drugging his wife and then inviting dozens of men to rape her.Two million women and girls every year are victims of male violence.I think my sister is her husband's property, yes.What is this government doing to tackle this misogyny?Welcome to Media Storm, the news podcast that starts with the people who are normally asked last.I'm Helena Wadia.
06:27And I'm Matilda Malinson.This week's Media Storm.Violence against women is a man's problem.Welcome to the studio and to Media Storm.We are lucky to be joined by two very special guests.Our first guest is an educator, researcher and activist who is passionate about changing the cultures around masculinity.He is the founder and managing director of Beyond Equality, a UK-based charity that works with men and boys to dismantle harmful stereotypes of gendered socialisation in workplaces, universities and more.Welcome to the podcast, Daniel Guinness.
07:09Thank you for having me.Our second guest is the co-founder of Swim Dem Crew, a writer, researcher and workshop facilitator working across masculinity and relationships and sex education for young people.You may have watched his TEDx talk about his work with young men and boys calledWhy We Need to Change the Way Young Men Think About Consent.Welcome to the studio, Nathaniel Cole.Thank you for having me.If you've seen today's topic reported in the news,you've likely seen the common catch-all-term violence against women and girls.
07:40It's so common we barely think about it.We talk about how many women were raped in a given time frame,not about how many men raped women.We talk about how many women were catch-a-old.called, not about how many men cat call women. We talked to teenage girls about a school dresscode, but don't teach boys not to objectify their bodies. Daniel, why do you think men havebeen rendered pretty much invisible in much of the discourse around gender-based violence?That is a very big question. I think it's a big question because actually we have a whole
08:11system that has been about putting men in a position of power, in a position of control inrelationships in particular, but also more broadly in society. And so we end up with this idea that we'vegot evil people, bad people who do these horrible, horrible acts of violence, and that everyone elseis actually just a good guy. And really, that conversation that people like Nathaniel and myselfand others who are in the space can have, says, hey, we need to look at this bigger picture,and we need to actually brave enough to say, well, this is men's violence. It's not just a couple of men.Also, there's this broader group of men around them who either knew about it and didn't do anythingor minimalized it, looked away.
08:53So it's that fear of really looking at the bigger problem that actually implicates many of us,if not all of us.That is a reason why we prefer to just go, oh, it's really sad for this one individual.Can't believe that happened.Let's not look at what actually drove this to happen.And Nathaniel, do you agree?Do you think it's that kind of thing where we're almost a bit scared to implicate allthen in this? Yeah, I think so because for everyone to and men to acknowledge why men are violent,
09:24that's a really big mountain of issues and systems to dismantle. And I think people are scared toI say people, really, I mean people in power or men in power are scared to acknowledge thatbecause then that means less power for them as far as they're concerned, less control, less moneyand I guess less manipulation of others. So at the moment, men in power have what they want,what they need and I don't think they have any interest in changing that. They'll do what they canto kind of keep the scales tipping in their favour. You know, we unfortunately see it a lot inschools where all boys I work with are really obsessed with money, control, being stronger,all these sorts of things and that's, they're just absorbing a message that's being given to them
10:04from really big players in our society. It's striking to me that you both start from a positionof men are implicatedand you don't have a defensive reaction against that.I have found when I do have these conversations with men,that is the first place I'll lose them.As soon as there's generalising languageor a suggestion that they are implicated in somethingjust because of their gender, I lose them
10:35and that is I can understand why,especially men who really, really, really don't feel obsessedwith power or money or have been raised in really progressive, egalitarian, respectful ways.Of course, there's, you know, the hashtag, not all men.But I'm not just thinking of, you know, the really extreme defensive hashtag not all men,men's rights.I am speaking about your average good guy who shuts down at that implicating of men.How is it that you are able to talk about it in that way?
11:10How do you have this conversation with boys without putting them on the defence?When I speak to boys, I ask them to speak to the women in their lives about their experiences of sexual harassment and violence and see if that will line up with what they actually think.Because when I come into the classrooms talking about sexual violence, boys just talk to me about false accusations.They want to focus on the fantasy and the stories about lying and all this sort of stuff.Because that's more exciting.That's way more exciting than thinking and knowing that you, your friend, your father, your uncle can all be capable.of harming someone.But hashtag should be not all men, but all men.
11:47I think I'd start by saying that I really, really strive not to be defensive,but there's still times when these conversations come up,when I do get that feeling of like, oh, wait, am I going to be on trial here or something?And I think what's crucial about the sort of approach that we would take as educatorsis not to say, like, straight off, you shouldn't have that emotion,but rather actually help someone understand where that emotion is coming fromand how can they get to a different spot.Boys will be dealing with a lot of insecurities.
12:19They're trying to figure out who they are.They're trying to figure out who they're attracted to.There's this expectation that they put on themselves and their peers put on them,that they'll be somehow like this incredible Casanovadespite having never had a conversation before.You know, that can feel like an awful lot of pressure and expectation.But I think one of the really key things that we do as educators is to give them that sense of like they are important, their identity is important.And if we have a conversation about masculinity, these expectations about what it is to be a man, that isn't a conversation about them, but it's a conversation about how they relate to that, how they're influenced by that, how are they pressured by that, and help them navigate that system of expectations to do that.
13:08differently. Do it better. Do it better for them. Do it better for others. So moving fromindividual responsibility to systemic responsibility, men's violence against women is an ongoingsystemic crisis. And we can contextualise what we're talking about. In England and Wales,two million women and girls every year are thought to be victims of male violence. One in 20people will be a perpetrator of violence against women and girls. In a global survey from UN women,33% of women under 35 said they had been sexually harassed online.This is compared to 11% of men.Globally, about one in three women worldwide,
13:48have been subjected to either physical and or sexual violence in their lifetime.Most of this violence is intimate partner violence.Daniel, do you think that young men understand the scale,the global and the shocking scale of gender-based violence?There's a huge range within young men who walk into a classroom and there can be someone who actuallyyou're like, we know you could be doing this job in a couple of months, you know,with an appropriate like training and whatever else.And then at the same classroom, there's people who are fixated on some of these myths that exist
14:25in our society.Myths like it only happens, you know, this is a dark alley type of a situation.It's not happening within relationships, within, you know, friendship groups or families.And quite often there is no understanding of the scale of this, or the scale is understood, but the impact isn't.You know, it's a number on a page, and it's a big jump, you know, because you need to step outside of that privilege of your own existence and your own experience and really try to connect with someone else.And sadly, what we're getting now is a lot of people in the media and in social media tapping into that defensiveness and tapping into that.and tapping into that sense of insecurityand really just feeding quite harmful,
15:10really embedded narrativesthat are taking the boys off in a different direction.And there's a newer element to this now, social media.According to research from this year,carried out by King's College London's Policy Instituteand the Global Institute for Women's Leadership,Gen Z boys and men are more likely than baby boomersto believe feminism is harmful.
15:33For reference, Gen Z is generally considered people born from 1997 to 2012, Baby Boomers, 1946 to 1964.The study which polled over 3,600 people, showed 16% of Gen Z males felt feminism had done more harm than good.Among over 60s, the figure was 13%.One in four UK males aged 16 to 29 believe it is harder to be a man than a woman.The Director of the Policy Institute said of the study that this is a new and unusual generational pattern.Normally, it tends to be the case that younger generations are consistently more comfortable with emerging social norms as they grew up with these as a natural part of their lives.But, you know, this group, Gen Z, they are the first to really derive most of their information from social media.Now, the same study also found that of those surveyed, one in five men aged 60,
16:32to 29 who have heard of Andrew Tate say they have a positive view of him.Andrew Tate, for anyone who doesn't know, is a British American social media influencerwho has millions of followers, 10 million on X alone.Tate is currently facing charges in Romania, which he denies of human trafficking,rape and forming a criminal gang to sexually exploit women.He has talked about hitting and choking women and has self-described as absolutely a misogynist.Now, it's easy to dismiss people like Andrew Tate as evil and disgusting, but I think the question that needs to be asked is, what gave room to the rise of people like Andrew Tate?How and why did he manage to gain a following of young men?
17:21I think there's a tech regulation sort of answer here and what the algorithms are pushing to people and the huge weighting that's given to things which are controversial.There's also here the sorts of insecurities and unmet needs, particularly of young men,that Andrew Tate positions himself, a bit of a charlatan, but positions himself to solve.And the solutions that he's pushing through are very palatable to a lot of young menbecause they're ones of you don't need to think through things too hard.You should be in control.And also, there's a conspiracy against you called feminism,and that's actually what's holding you back here.
18:00I think ultimately what they do is pray on the insecurities of young men that are vulnerable, of adult men that are vulnerable.Now you take the misogyny influences away, the insecurities are still there, whether it's about body image, money.And unless we deal with what creates those insecurities, there will always be someone or something to prey on them.Essentially, I think it always goes back to, you know, financial crisis and living in a recession, you know,if the society has a poor quality of life and less money to do what they need,you will always have, you'll create insecure and vulnerable people that will be preyed upon.Now unfortunately, gender-based violence is not uncommon in our news,but we particularly want to focus today on a couple of big stories that have made headlines this week.
18:57The first is a story so harrowing yet so important to talk about.It's a horrifying sexual assault case playing out in France,adding to a larger French reckoning over abuse towards women.Dominique Pelico is accused of drugging and raping his now ex-wife, Giselle,over the course of a decade.He's also accused of recruiting at least 50 other men to rape her while she was unconscious.He's alleged to have recruited the men on a chat room and filmed the suspected attacks.Dominique, who is 71, is being tried in the southern French.
19:32city of Avenor, along with 50 other men on charges of aggravated rape.Some of these defendants have admitted guilt, while others have denied it.Another 30 suspects, as yet unnamed and untraced, remain at large.So far, police have used roughly 20,000 images Dominique took of the assaults to determinethat 72 men have been involved in raping Giselle from 2011 to 2020.In an act of untold bravery, although Giselle had the option of a private trial, she decided to make the proceedings public in order to support and raise awareness for other victims of similar crimes.We want to read out what she said about her case.I speak for all women who are drugged and don't know about it.
20:19I do it on behalf of all women who will perhaps never know.The identities of the defendants haven't been revealed, although authorities note that they range from the ages of 20s.to 74, that many have partners and that they come from a wide spectrum of backgrounds,including firefighters, journalists and soldiers.How was this discovered?In November 2020, Dominique was initially investigated for taking photos up women's skirtsat a supermarket in southeastern France.Police searched Pelico's computer and found a folder with thousands of photos and videos
20:53of himself and other men raping Giselle while she was unconscious.The police informed Giselle of their findings.She says, my world fell apart.Giselle had been to the doctor, both with and without her then-husband, multiple times.Records show she reported hair loss, weight loss, gynecological problems and memory lapses,so much so that she feared she might be developing Alzheimer's or another serious illness.First of all, we want to just ask you your response to when you first heard about the story.read about the story, and particularly about the allegedly 72 men who partook in various forms of these sexual assaults.
21:37Was there a level of shock when you heard about how many men were involved?When I heard about the number of men involved, was I surprised, this is one of the worst cases I ever heard.In that sense, I was surprised. Was I surprised that things like this happened?sadly no, because we do see this happen in many parts of our society,in many different places in the world.And it links to these broader structures which say to some people,some men here, you're entitled to do anything you can get away with.It's just incredible that not only were those people, okay,
22:15recruited from internet chat room,but a lot of these people are also from the same area, the same village.They bumped into each other at the baker.These people are embedded in communities and the levels of entitlement and lack of concern for someone else's well-being are horrific here.Yeah, I mean, I can't believe that no one knew about this.And 72 men were involved.I mean, how many men were approached but said no or, you know, just saw it and didn't respond.You know, this silence.
22:46Nathaniel earlier you said, yeah, not all men, but all men have a role.what you're talking about? I mean, what was your reaction to this 72 men?Like, when I read it, I was horrified and I felt sick, but I was not surprised at all.A lot of people look at paper and say, good, honest men. And for us, we need to understandthat good, honest men can do anything. Me, I can do anything. Dan can do anything. We're allcapable of serious harm. It's the choices we make that prevent that harm. I think probablythe saddest thing, or one of the sad, most frustrating thing, actually, for me, is, itthe men that turned away and don't whistle blow that don't go through with it and just leave it
23:26there and think they can go back to their normal life and going back to not all men but all menit's like these men as would still have had insecurities that were created and then presentedwith an opportunity to get their one up so that they can feel better and they can feel like a manby imposing themselves on a woman which is what many men and sexual abusers do and we have tounderstand why someone would think of that is what being a man isabout. That is what sex is about. That is what, you know, feeding their needs is about.This is a story so harrowing for so many reasons. The length of time the abuses took placeover, the amount of abuses, the lying, the gaslighting, the list goes on. The case is also
24:10somewhat unique in the fact that we know Giselle's identity. Naturally, there have been manyreports and many headlines about this story, and not all of them were helpful orresponsible. We wanted to read this one from The Telegraph. Woman takes public revenge on men whoraped her every night on her husband's orders. Daniel, what is wrong with this headline and what arethe stereotypes that this headline falls into? For some reason, her act of seeking justice is somehowframed as like an emotional taking revenge. Like she was almost like a villain or a, you know,that's the sort of place that we use that revenge word for, which just removes a lot of theaccountability for the men who follow in that sentence, right? And that's even further the case,
25:01because the men who've raped her and who've done these horrific acts are position as if they didit on somebody else's orders. It's like, oh, they didn't even make the choice themselves. No,they got in their cars, they drove across, they made a plan, they followed through with it,they walked away and, you know, they also like hid all the evidence, right?It also, to me, I find it outstanding how this got past a headline editor and then a sub-editorand then the publisher and the writer of the article.Like, it just the list goes on that this, at least four pairs of eyes was on this in the Telegraphnewsroom, probably many more.
25:38And yet it still got published.Yes, at least four very important pairs of eyes would have signed that headline off.And on that point I mentioned at the start of the podcast about powerful men or people serving powerful men and wanting to kind of continue that status quo, I think that's how you end up with a headline that can position of a victim and survivor of horrific sexual violence as someone is more powerful than 70 men.And they're literally controlling the narrative there with their headlines as well.We also want to focus on the reporting of this story in a daily mail article.The headline reads,They were a happy middle-class family looking after the grandchildren while pottering in thethe garden, but a terrible secret was waiting to be revealed. As French rape trial grips
26:22the world, how teen sweethearts fell in love before the ultimate betrayal. Daniel's lookingreally confused right now. It's like, what is this story? Is this a children's story? That's presentedas a love story where there's tragedy where like it sounds like someone else has come into theirhappy life and ruined it. And that couldn't be further from the truth.the villain was, you know, there all along.It romanticises one of the most terrific sexual abuse cases we've ever seen.It sounds like a movie they're talking about or something.This chronicling of it turns it into entertainment and this plays into, you know,
27:00there is this obsession with femicide in the entertainment world at the moment.And the spin, it's not just that the spin is dramatized,it's that it's actively sympathetic.I mean, the article says, Mr. Pelico, the once warm and dedicated father andhusband is now on trial. To call this man warm and dedicated seems entirely inappropriate.I mean, not to mention just unjournalistic. It's highly subjective. But also, could you,it comes across a sympathetic. I mean, Daniel, what do you think is the effect of this kind ofreporting? His abuse didn't happen when he got found out. His abuse happened over a decade,
27:38right? And that's what's hidden by this article. The active manipulation, the, the, thethe active deception is just completely wiped off the page.I think what's important, it would be maybe reframe it as like the man who presentedhimself or pretended to be, you know, warm and dedicated, or what was the illusion of a happyand supportive life, what if that first sentence was, like a happy marriage and happy familylife.And I think that can be an important point to get across, that actually there are.this surface that we sometimes see from individuals and from situations that looks like it's
28:21happy and well-functioning and supportive and whatever else.But there can be this other story that's actually there the whole time underneath.There's a book called Murder Gender and the Media by Jane Moncton Smith.And in Jane's book, she explores how stories of domestic homicide are told in the newsby police, by the courts, and she draws from over 70 cases.and Jane's research shows that men on trial for killing their partnersare likely to get a lighter sentence if they reference love.So that's a real insight into the way the idea of romantic love can justify
28:56and excuse the killing of women by their spouses or partnersor the violence towards women by their spouses or partnersand lead, yeah, not only to sympathy,but actual lighter sentences for those people.And that's a decision made by a judge, right?Like that's how far these ideas are penetrating into our society.Another story that dominated headlines this week was that of Rebecca Chetke.Rebecca was a marathon runner, a Ugandan Olympian who lived in Kenya.
29:29She recently competed in the marathon in the 2024 Paris Olympics.She died last Thursday.Her former partner, Dixon Indyema, poured a can of petrol over her and set her on fire.Rebecca's father told reporters last week that Indyenne,had been stalking and threatening her and the family had informed the police.Ndema has since also died from injuries sustained in the attack.Police were treating Rebecca's death as murder, with Ndhema named as the main suspect.Some reporting fell into the common mainstream media trap of erasing the perpetrator.
30:04We'll read out some headlines.BBC News.Ugandan athlete in hospital after Kenya petrol attack.The cut.What we know about Rebecca Chetegay, the Olympic runner who,was set on fire. Washington Post, Olympic marathoner set on fire during attack in Kenya.What do these headlines signal to you? What's missing?Who's got the lighter in their hands? When they use this passive voice, without spotlighting
30:32who the perpetrator is, you know, in their makeup and in this case their gender, it's a reallygood way to push things to the side. If you make a story that is active and say man, rapes women,police men, rapes women, that challenges people's perceptions in their heads of men, of what they'recapable of. It's really frustrating. In Kenya, it does have a specific, I guess, manifestation ofdistance-running athletes that are women. Men befriend them and offer to coach them often withoutqualifications, become partners, and then seek to control their finances. And then when thosewomen want to leave those relationships, they are murdered, they are abused. If they fall pregnant,they are forced to have abortions because they are the breadwinner of the house, controlling none of the money.
31:16You know, unfortunately, she's added to a list of other distance runners training in Kenya that have been murdered by their partners.And what an important context that is missed out of all of these not only headlines but articles.You said who's holding the lighter?I mean, these headlines completely strip the story of any perpetrator.and this is a problem that's not just in the media,it's echoed in the police investigation,it's echoed in the prosecution case in the courtrooms.Listeners can go back and listen to our investigation,
31:49rape justice, what happens to the 98%,which is about how, you know,the vast majority of cases never make it to trial.And we literally speak to prosecutorsand two police investigators who say,yeah, you know, all of the focus is on the victim.We take the victim's phone,we scan through all of her photos,
32:07all of her messages.We can't really take his phone.He can just say no comment.The case as well.The defence, it's all,what about the victim?What's her sexual history?What are her sexual preferences?
32:20So when the headlines do this focus totally on herand they strip the story of a perpetrator,that is replicated in our justice systemand what it means is there's no accountability.We need to swing the focus.Thank you both so much for joining usfor this incredibly important and enlightening conversation.First of all, Daniel, just tell us where people can follow you
32:46and do you have anything that you want to plug to listeners?Listeners can find me via Beyond Equality.We typically beyond underscore equality on all the social media platforms.While we've been talking about big cases, maybe abroad,this is also related to workplace harassmentand there's a really important new legal responsibilityfor workplaces to actually be doing everything they canto prevent harassment within their workplaces
33:15coming into effect in October.And what that means is we can actually start focusingsome of these very preventative conversationsand I think it's a good example of how we can think more sociallyabout preventing some of these other problemsand it's really important for employees to actually get on top of thatand take action now, which is positive.And Nathaniel, where can people follow you
33:37and do you have anything to plug?I'm Nathaniel A. Cole on all social media platforms.And I'm launching my project next year, which looks at marginalised boys in second yearsettings of college or sixth form about how their identity impacts their view of relationshipsand sex.It's been amazing to do so far.I've had boys in circles crying with each other that have done things that have talked aboutthings I've never talked about before, but also relating that back to how they've
34:07themselves have a few women and girls. It's been really excited and so far.Thank you for listening. If you want to support Media Storm, you can do so on Patreon for less thana cup of coffee a month. The link is in the show notes and a special shout out to everyone in ourPatreon community already. We appreciate you all so much. And if you enjoyed this episode,please send it to someone. Word of mouth is still the best way to grow a podcast, so please do tellyour friends and obviously leave us a five-star rating and a review. You can follow us on social mediaat Matilda Mal at Helena Wadia and follow the show at Media Storm Pod.Media Storm is an award-winning podcast produced by Helena Wadia and Matilda Mallinson.
34:56The music is by Samphire.
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