What’s my age (gap relationship) again?
00:00Boo.That's Jordan and I trying to introduce you all to miss me.Trick or treat.In a Halloween way.And this is what Jordan comes with.Boo.You know, Halloween's just so suspect.Do you not think, as a concept, there's just suspect, isn't it?
00:19Let's be real.Let me just say welcome to miss me before we go down that road.Thank you for being here.Thank you for joining us to everyone.Hallows Eve.It is Halloween.It's Hallows Eve this weekend.I didn't even fucking remember that's how
00:34little Halloween resonates with me anymore.But we have sharedHalloween's together. Have we?Yeah, the classic Halloweenthat we had at Birdcage.The Birdcage. When I turned up to the puband I was dressed as a dead soldierbut I walked into the wrong section and it was like
00:4950 football fans watching Chelsea West Ham.That was not. Yeah.That was awkward. Great night.Great night. I love the dress up of it,obviously.We're talking about Halloween but we'll also be talkingabout many other things on today's Miss me.Billy Corgan said some quite galling things.
01:08So we'll be talking about that, Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumpkins,talking about age gap relationships.Pumpkins? There you are.There you go.That's still a bit Halloweeny.Smash some fucking pumpkins this week, lads.You're most, you're most.And we're also talking about Girls is coming back,
01:24not even might be, is coming back.Yeah.It's so exciting.Yeah.So we're talking about all these things.But yes, Halloween.We have shared a Halloween together.and that I do remember
01:34and if I look back at my pastHalloween's I got into a really badrut dressing up wiseand I just did sexy catfor like 10 to 12 yearsYeah I remember that actuallyAnd Phoebe was likeCan we not with the sexy cat anymore
01:48That's honestlyThat's the most basic thingYou've ever done in your lifeIs it trulythe most basic thing I've ever doneFor 12 years thoughYeahSo I think after that I was like
01:59I don't do HalloweenI don't dress up as HalloweenIf I can't do sexy catIt's sexy cat or nothing.What? There's other options.You know, the reason why I love Halloween is, well,I love, the dressing up on Halloween is phenomenal.Obviously, you know, in my previous relationship,
02:16like, I mean, Jade is the queen of Halloween, really,in the terms of the outfits, man.Yeah, first year in a while, you haven't been dressed up.Yes, I'm not even going to be in the country.But I love Halloween because it's when I used to,when I was younger, it's the one time, if I went to,Like if I had Halloween out at like a club or a venue or like maybe even a house party,is the only place where you'd see characters fight each other.
02:39Like if it was a dispute, the people who were fighting were just wild.You'd see like the Hulk fighting like a rabbit.Like you'll see like the Hulk fight.Do you know what I mean?Like the Mad Hatter and the Hulk are having a fight and you're like,or surely I think to myself you can't you can't take this seriously.Like you can't, you know what I mean?Like yes, the person has tried to kiss your girlfriend but he's dressed like Willie
03:00Wonka.Yes, I was like, mate, it's all right.Just like, let it be.He's in character.I remember Phoebe had a really good Halloween outfit that she brought out quite a lot,which was a tin of spam.She was a tin of spam.Sure.
03:13That was quite good.I never forget the story I was told when my friend's friend went to a Halloween party,which was themed, like it was a letter end party.Yeah, so you know, like, all the outfits had to be the letter end, right?So she went forNosferatusNo she went for night skyRight
03:34So sheMade herself look like the night skyWhich involvedPaining herself blackAnd then sticking stars on topOf courseSo the stars all over itShe became the sky
03:47Over the course of the nightShe sweated the stars offSo she's just a minstrelYeah you got to be carefulYou got be carefulWith your Halloween outfits.I remember it was really big with our group.That lot would go to New York or L.A. for Halloween.
04:18I mean, that's how much they gave you shit.Would fly that.Have you been in America for Halloween?Yeah, I mean, it's a whole different thing.America.Oh, my God.These lot are obsessed.And it's still like that, isn't it?
04:27It's still pretty huge.I mean, it's massive here as well.Well, America is Halloween now, so.Yeah, well, quite exactly.They don't need a night to scare the shit.shit out of everyone.So good luck, everyone, on your Halloween escapades.I hope we haven't taken the joy out of it.
04:41I would sit here and talk about the history of it,but I think I've done that last Halloween, obviously.So I'll spare everyone.Yeah, you probably did, didn't you?Let's be honest.Hallows Eve.Trick or tree?What if I said trick?
04:52What are you going to do?Do you mean?Actually, I would like to know.No, Keith, it's not, it's...It's not that interesting.No, it's like, it's disappointing.Trick or treat history?Yeah, because it's like, obviously it's deeper.
05:03Oh, it's, yes.Medieval.Hoof.It's like, trick or treat.It's like, well, I'll go for a trick.Okay, I'll put a curse on your family.Good luck.Prays or songs for the dead
05:12in exchange for small round pastries.Nah, that sounds kind of nice.Yeah, but that's more ritualistic.We've lost that.Kids ain't singing nothing, bro.They come in like, what sweet you got?Yeah, they don't give us a prayer or a song.Do you know what I mean?
05:23That's the way I get a little bit.That's where my Larry David comes out again.I'm like, what do you mean pick?You'll get what you're given.It is a bit more now.It's quite expectant, the child at the door on Halloween.And it's kind of just hands open, give me your sweets.And also like, it's too late for you used to be eating that.
05:40Let's be honest, man.You're going to lose your nut.Honestly, I remember trick-or-treating of Kane down the road.And there was one man on his...Our family friend, Kane.Yeah, on Sandra's Road, who just gave us like a jar of pennies.Like, he gave us genuinely like two to 300, two pens pieces.Like, he was, the guy was on smoke.
06:02I don't know what.We were buzzing, man.I was like, I went away with at least 55p.Yeah, but you thought we were rich.Anyway.How have you been in Bali?How has it been going?I have been working on some things in myself.
06:14I'm always obviously wanting to expand my soul.I wanted to expand myself.But like everyone, most people,I'm still bound by some fragilities in my ego, some wounds,that I maybe didn't really.realised we're still there because they'd not been triggered or whatever. And for me, a bigissue for me last year was this continuous desperation for me to feel understood in all senses.Like, understood in all senses. But then actually for a few things that happened, namely appearing
06:53on a couple of podcasts, where I felt I was clear, but misunderstood, I was actually able towork through being disliked by masses of people. Like, it was actually really good forme. I thought, wow, I've, you know, the first week I freaked out and then I was like, actually,this is just like life. I can't. I literally can't. I believe what I said. Yeah, I believe what I said.So what's fascinating is that was now the new point for me where if I'm clear about how I, what I amor what I'm doing, then I can accept being not liked. Misunderstood as it were. Yeah. Not even necessarilymisunderstood, like, I can surrender that validation if I feel I've been clear.I really need to hear that.
07:37Okay.That particular thing, I really need to hear that right now.Yeah.If you stand in what you have said and how you have been, that shit can't really hurt you.Do you know what it was?It's, there's two reasons why I know that's true.One is weirdly, even though I've been, like, for example, with my music and stuff, like,it's such an odd process because it's, it's a odd process because it's,
08:01It's not, there's so many different factors.There's people, other people involved.It's, I can't explain it.I feel like I've, I've constantly been chasing something with music.Even with songs I'm proud of, I've always been chasing something.It's hard to put my finger on it.With my book, I honestly felt like I bled.I mean, this is my adult book, there's two kids' books,
08:20but with my adult book, I felt like I'd fucking bled into this book.So that when I was reading negative comments, which were few, by the way,like I had a really good feedback for my book,I honestly did not care.Because I was, I really and truly was like,I literally couldn't have tried harder.I actually, it was so, it's the hardest creative endeavorI've ever done in my life.
08:40It's like years, like two years of work, you know?So the second thing is, you know,when I get, I often, and this is what I've ended uphaving to learn the hard way,my existence sometimes provokes what,someone just recently called like the male shadow, right?Like, I've got my own shadow, of course.We all do.
08:59But there's also consciousness,There's also shadows within collective consciousnesses.And, you know, men as a group, even though we're not a monolith, there will be some shared shadows, right?And if men get upset by me being like pro-gay or pro-women or pro-sex work or whatever, I don't mind that.You can come at me for that because I stand ten toes.That's what I believe in.Like if you don't get, if you don't like that, then fine.The bit that I'm now having to work on, which has been way more.
09:29way more painful than I thought because it's been a long time coming, I think,is when people have consciously, or not consciously actually,maybe not, have actively, it's probably a better way to say it,because it might still be unconscious,but they've gone out of their way to misunderstand me.No attempt to even research nothing.And then I have to deal with the negativity from a misunderstanding of who I am.That, McKita Oliver, because this isn't just, look,
09:57this happens online for sure,but it actually began in my personal life.No, I'm going through this in my personal life,so this is not just online.It's wild.Where it's like,the beginning of this with the universe was,I was doing a writers,
10:10I was helping out at a writers retreat in Bali,which was amazing.And every night we'd end it with like a fireside chat.And by the way,the reason why people talk on a fire,I found that on TikTok the other day,is because the chaotic flames,they create neuroplasticity in your brain
10:24because there's no sequence,so your brain softens.That's why people tell stories over a,fire. No way. That's a Mackey-A-Olivera fact for you. And sowe're at the fire and Isay something about pain and privilege. I won't get intoit now, but it's just like an idea I had, but I actually
10:39miscommunicated what I meant. And thenI ended up in this debate with an incrediblyintelligent woman whowas part of the retreat. It was fantastic and we reallyin fact, she was good to joust with.It wasn't, and there was no stress. Butsomething in my head went becauseshe's making these valid
10:55points, but I didn't makethe first point, she's making it against the point I never made.And so I'm trying to like, I'm trying to play cats up.No, no, no, but, but, but, and I just, my head was gone.And I couldn't, I was hyper fixated on me being clear.And then my friend who made an incredible recommendation to me afterwards,he said, I saw you lock in and he says, you know, he said that happens with his son too.It's actually an ADHD thing.
11:18I don't know what it is.Anyway, it's something that's copped up for me a long, for a long time.And I saw someone on Trevor Noah's podcast talk about it.But he said, is there ever a world where you can sit in that person doing,their point and you just think, I'm going to let the misunderstanding go.I think it's that book that just was really big this year, right? Let them.You can't say this, Miquita. Simon's half of Simon's show is taking a piss out of this book.Yeah, but I do, I know that, it's true.
11:43It's literally. It's literally half of Simon's show is like...But that, just as a sentence, let them is kind of what I'm going through.It's like, but I didn't say that. But no, but that I didn't mean that.But no, but that's not who I am. And it's like, what are you? If you're, if you're arguing,this much in your head with something that doesn't feelthat feels so untrue about who you are.You've got to just let them.Yeah.
12:06Because what am I going to do?Keep arguing with a madman.Or keep trying to negotiate with someone that just...It depends what the situation is.Yeah, well, I think when people are trying to paint you as something, you're not.It's like, you've just got to let them.What am I going to do?Fight for...
12:20I've got to just know who I am.You can't just be like, no, that's not who I am.Or you can ask questions, I guess.If it isn't like a dispute, you know, this wasn't a really...really a dispute. This was like a back and forth. So my friend was like,this was a joust. Yeah, yeah. So my friend was like, look, it's important to have your ownclarity, but also there's another clarity, which is group clarity, which is a fair point. I mean,this guy's a, he does a lot of youth work and group work. He's, he's brilliant, very calm.
12:45But he's just fascinated by me because I'm just constantly just running into things andand going rah on podcasts and stuff. And he just would never, because that's not his vibe. He wantspeace. And I, I was like,you know, I battled it a bit and I still obviously will maintain my starters on things,but it was really fascinating to think, yeah, maybe there are some instances where it's not needed.My clarity isn't actually needed and if anybody really wanted to know, they would actually ask.Like some people are genuinely in that moment, they're going through their own thing,they might be committed in that moment to misunderstanding you.
13:17And this is where we get on to the fact that like, listen, we're all broken, we're all brokenand maybe that's part of let them. It's just like, no one is fixed. And so,Nothing that anyone says means more than something anyone else says.It's just we still have to fucking protect our necks.This does lead me on to Billy Corgan because I do believe we are all broken.But Billy Corgan believes that actually it is women in his age group that are broken, which has led him.This is insane.Yeah, this has led him to dating someone 26 years younger because it's an entirely different generation.
13:53And he says that his wife doesn't have the same wounds as the woman in his age group,which would be women in their 50s.I'm going to let Billy Corgan say it because...You're fucking kidding me, he said that.Yeah, that's what he said.Yeah.Let's hear him say it.Is it helpful at all in your relationship
14:11that you two are of different generations?Well, that gets into...I don't want to make all the feminists mad.We don't have to do age gap discourse.No, we don't have to.No, no, no, it's not...No, it's not that I'm...I guess what I'm trying to say is,
14:24I think that a lot of women bornin the 90s, given the societal changes, given the correct and proper rise of feminism as a kind ofway to balance properly a lot of things. But because so many women of our generation were goingthrough that without a lot of help and coming out of a lot of abuse, it was harder to put thosepieces together if you're broken and they're broken. So you couldn't connect with women of yourgeneration for whom the hard way of feminism was new.It was nothing wrong with them.It was it's like you know what's the old thing two wrongs don't make a right.
15:03I met a lot of broken women along the way.I mean, I was shocked at the stories that I would hear about what they'd been through.When I met my wife and having that gap, she just wasn't affected by those same politics.She just was, she just had a different version.She was born into the aftermath of them.Sure.And had a different sense of self-confidence and then, you know, her youths.was an advantage because she hadn't been wounded like so many people are because you just go through life and you get wounded.
15:33So I had the advantage of somebody who was really open to love and the possibility and for whatever reason just decided not to judge me for who I was, particularly in that moment.What's the lesson here?You know what? I will say there's more, there's more nuance to that than I was expecting.from the way you mentioned it then.But it's just he didn't have to say broken, man.That's such a loaded fucking word to use in that context.Yeah, and skin said something.It's so odd that he is at no point spoken about his own experience of himself in that time.
16:10Well, he does say that he, this is interesting,he does say that he is broken also, doesn't he?Two wrongs don't make a right.Two broken people coming together isn't going to work.But I...It is going to work.Yeah, surely we come together to heal each other.Can you guys hear that?
16:25It's a prayer at the local mosque.We'll take a little Balinese prayer.Balinese, yeah, Muslim prayer, yeah.In the middle of our mis-mey.Yeah, that's beautiful.It's actually a Muslim island.Bali is more Hindu-Buddhist, but this is a fully Muslim island.I can't keep forgetting you're in Bali.
16:42Sorry, back to Billy Corgan.He's calling comments.Sorry, yeah, what does skin say?Because skin's a fucking G.That's what she's saying.It's skin from Skokanasi.She said, oh, love you, Billy.I really do, but this ain't it.
16:52We're not broken.We're stronger and wiser.They're currently living our best lives due to the people we choose to spend our lives with now.Intelligent, grown and equal.I understand he's trying to lead with compassion in some ways.But like to recognise your own brokenness, see the brokenness in another person and opt for someone who hasn't yet been broken as it as it.Younger and not wounded.Yeah. Like it's there's such an opportunity to like for example, the reason why I,
17:24I find this difficult is because I would argue that this is an issue faced by men, right?This is the irony.It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.Like men, we have gone through life burying wounds mainly because we're not even necessarilyaware all the time of what those wounds are, right?And then you end up with culminations of frustrated men, angry men, who then actually fuel,I guess, much of the, the,anger and frustration by the women because it's like, I guess, misguided a lot of the time.
17:59But in my head, I'm thinking what was required of somebody who is untrusting, guarded, you know,might like if it's like a, you know, someone will bite if they've been hurt, you know,if they've been abused, you bite at first.It's like the reward, the potential reward from both parties if you actually slowly and like,you know, I really don't, I know it's, I honestly just think about dog.every the time. I'm talking about humans. I just think about dogsthe whole time because I feel like at theroot level. You can do a dog measure for
18:30that may help us. I know, but I know but it's justit feels lazy but it's just you knowit's like the equivalent of somebody basically getting like ait's weird comparing women or mento rescue dogs but like I guess it's likeno I know it's fucked up but likeI guess some of us are genuinely some of usare we've had homes before it's not worked out
18:48and we've lost trust forfor human beings you know there's a rescuemany rescues won't even let men go near them rightLike my, my last rescue, she wouldn't let me touch her for like three days.Did I decide to just go and get a puppy who didn't even, wasn't scared of men yet?See, that metaphor really did work.Right.But instead, after working at it from being, from listening and learning and seeing what it was gentle,
19:13not looking her in the eyes for too long, all these things.Now, you would never recognise this dog.This dog bounds up, loving, kissing.Like now it's more trusting, you know, it's, it's both.ways, by the way, sorry, I really need to be clear. I'm not, it's not just women who are rescue.It's very much the men, too. No, it's very much the men. He's opted for, for, he's just like,yeah, the, why the fuck isn't he got? He's like, I've not got the time to do mutual healing. I justwant to. Well, well, it's not just about not the time. I suppose there's a level of not wanting to
19:42look into a fucking mirror. Right. And actually, that's, that's kind of when the best things happenin relationships where you, where you're both willing to look at all your monsters together and,and sort of go forth holding hands saying, I'm broken, me too, let's go.But the thing that I think is interesting, Jay, is that he's saying it about younger womenand his wife being younger.And as I've said, the women in my life who have broken up with their long-term relationshipwho are in their 40s have so many young men on their case, men in their 20swho have said that the women of their generation, their peers, women in their 20s are broken
20:21in another way.So we're all fucking broken.Which, by the way, is the age of his wife.Yes, quite.So men her age thinks she's broken and he doesn't.So it's like some weird Russian doll of brokenness.But exactly, it just keeps continuing.Russian doll of brokenness is very good.
20:38If I think about what it would take for me,I mean, obviously I'm 34, so I'd have to imagine,I don't know how this guy is like 60-something.Was it 50-something?Yeah, Betty Cawkins is probably 60 now.Like, I could imagine the sheer factthat that's a possibility.I think it's less about, well, this is just, again,
20:56obviously this is just my perspective.I don't actually know him personally at all,but just if I'm to think of the other menthat I've seen do this,I think also it's just like an opportunityto kind of relive youth again, man.I think it's just need to be upfront about that.Be honest, Billy.
21:13I know, it's just like, it's just,there's something intoxicating, I would assume,about just seeing,this just sounds so depressing.I'm sorry, but like, he's found a wayof somehow stepping around the realitythat just seeing someone unaffected yet by lifeis just something you want to be around.
21:31Yet being the operative word.Because it's just hard.Do you know what I'm saying? Like, of course yet.That's what I'm saying. Like, the idea that beingthat she wasn't born in the 90s means that she...It's like, do you think she's going to stay unwounded?Yeah, in fact, it's probably going to be you boss.I hate to break it to.
21:47You, it's going to be your ass that fucking breaks her.It's no serious.But like, but look, I don't want to, I don't want to be dismissive of age gap relationships.I'm sure they can work.I don't want to be dismissive of there being something that a younger mind can offer,an older person can offer.When you flip it, you know, it's more confusing, I guess, because I think it's kind of dope,I guess a younger man and older women.
22:08But then again, when it gets serious, I know a lot of older women who sleep with younger men,but actual serious relationship, like I, I'm not sure.I don't know.Well, I just read the interview with Sam Taylor Johnson in the Times.And her and Aaron like, fucking hell, that's like 20 years they've been together.And they were madly in love and she was 44 and he was 19.Yeah, that's fucked up, though.Well, I think that was also a lot of...
22:32They got away with one there.But that's because they're rich and famous and it was in fashion and art.And because they've managed to just keep it stem.But they also have two children and a long healthy relationship.Maybe what we're saying is maybe this is what I was thinking today.Oh, God, relationships.I think we just have to like all rules, like ideas.is of like like this works like this doesn't i went like it just because because if i look at jona and
22:56lily like as i said the other day like he's given her so much that she's never had in a relationshiphow old is he 28 i've never seen her happy like this i've never seen her feel so safe okay i know i knowbut we got just keep it chill it's been what it's been like a year i'm sorry i'm just like thisi'm like this for everyone in my life man i'm like fucking guys just chill like you got to be it could allfall apart. It could all fall apart tomorrow. But right now, I've never seen her so happy.I genuinely want the best for everyone. No, no, no, no. I really need to be clear. I'm not tryingto be a hater. I just, I, me as a person, I'm generally tentative about this stuff. Because it'sjust like, my expectations are so low. But I really want to least be happy. I think, Billy, just,
23:37just a round that off before we go to a break. I just, what I like is that skin has begun hercritique with love. That's great. Right. Obviously, we're talking about like a guy is revered forhis music and it is possible to hear a man who just might be a little bit confused you know if we were toyou know there's a there's probably a more grounded reason you know he might have been in a relationshipwith someone of his age and he found it difficult you know and then so his response is to run fromit rather than run into it or think there's another thing is this all I'm saying is this is anotherwin for Keanu Reeves Keanu Reeves is the only male celebrity dating a woman older than him like a bossLike a fucking boss
24:18at a time where Keanu could have beenback flipping into whoeverbecause he's literally fucking Neo.While Leonardo DiCaprio still runsafter 22-year-olds, Keanu Reeves is happy.We don't know that Leonardo Cabrero is not happy, I don't know.I mean, he's trying to save the world at the same time,isn't he?
24:31He doesn't seem happy.He doesn't, it's not the moves of a happy man.Like 10 girlfriends in their 20sover the last 10 years.Like, grow the fuck up.Anyway, we'll end it there.Just don't use it.It's one one to say.
24:45The word broke.It's the word.The word broken is just such a fucking painful loaded word.That seems to be a thing at the moment right nowwith people online or in podcast or doing speechesor fucking monologues.It's just a choice of words.There really needs to be like some redrafts.
25:06Redrafts or like just some, you know, like yes, you admitted you're brokenbut broken, broken, like the fuck, brother, we're...Human.Rihanna, we're human.Yeah, that doesn't stop.What do you mean?Like life is fucking.hard. You think this woman that you're married to is going to
25:19fucking cartwheel through life in the West 60s.Like, you know, we're talking about,we're living in this society now that onlyjust understands the concepts of perimenopause.Is he just trying to like,what is that rewires pregnancy?Rewires a woman's brain. I read something the other daywhere it's like your whole programming of your
25:34fucking brain changes.As well, like, what's that guy going to do? Fuckingswap in for fucking some other.Yeah, exactly. It does have that energy.But good luck to him. Good luck toall of them. And good luck to everyone.in looking for love.We're going to have a break
25:49and then we're going to come backand talk aboutwhy women hate each other.I wanted to talk aboutfemale relationsbecause girls is coming backand I love the reason whyLena Dunham said it just came to her in the shower
26:16and it's like what Billy Joel saysabout that song River of Dreams.He was like, kind of came to me and I was like,no, it's fine, I'll leave it.And then he was in the showergoing, I'm a look in the real la la la, and he was like, no, no, no, it's fine.And he was like, okay, I have to write this fucking song.So if something comes to you and you've got to put it out, it's going to stay with you
26:34until you do.So I feel like she's going to write something very special because she's obviously got to.It's not like, she's like, let's bring girls back for the sake of it.Now, I'm a huge fan of girls.And my cousin, Suleiman, is going through a breakup and wanted to find a TV show to aHe said, maybe I'll start girls.And I was like, yes, start girls.And it reminded me of kind of how many parts of my life that series has gone through.
27:03It was 2012 to 2017.It was fucking ages ago, girls.And now they're all in their 40s, and it will be a conversation about girls in their 40s.So I think it's still very interesting.Very.Very interesting.If she does it right, if she gets it right, if Lena does what she does best.And when she's writing what she knows, she's bloody, brilliant.
27:24Game changer.Girls was interesting because it was a fucking game changer.Cultural reset.It really was.And it wasn't, you know, you got to remember when Sex and the City finished,there were lots of fake sex in the cities,particularly a show called Lipstick Jungle with Brooke Shields.And it was just a sort of bad identicate with worse writing.
27:41You made that up.Nope.That happened.Lipstick Jungle.Lipstick Jungle.And then there was also another show with like Lucy Lou.Like everyone tried to do this version of Sex in the City.That is not what Girls was.
27:52Fucking brilliant.Girls was talking.no, Ali McBills before Sex and City.Girls was talking about women in their 20s.Girls was somewhat problematic when it came to...No black people in New York.No black people.Don't exist.
28:07Chargers Gambino for 15 minutes.Yes, there is...Riz Ahmed's in the latter series.There's a self-restructed, bro.That's fucking girl.He wasn't in New York, though.So two brown people over five series is pretty patheticif you're talking about New York City.
28:21But I think that they...I think that the reason...I mean, not the reason, but I think that there was already this, like, kind of dangerous part of girls.We can't possibly have black people.There's an overweight woman having sex in this show.That was the dangerous part of girls.And the fact that it was is absolutely galling.I mean, you'd have to have remembered the furor around this at the time.
28:44There was constant press around the fact that this woman who wasn't thin was often naked and unashamedly sexual and having sex.with, God of it, a really attractive fucking man, Adam Driver.She invented Adam Driver. She crafted him out of clay.I really do implore anyone that's not watched girls to really sit down with it.It's a journey and it's bloody good.Who's your favourite?Well, one of my favourite things about the writing was how she writes about the ugliness of pain.And there's an episode, it's sort of like series three.
29:20And this is Hannah Horvatt, the main character.Jessa, her oldest friend who's a beautiful, played by Jemima Kirk, starts dating Adam, her ex.And it's done so excruciatingly.They're doing an immersive play.Adam Driver, yeah, he's in an immersive play.And she notices that across this kind of real-life set of a New York scene,Adam and Jesser are staring at each other in that way that people who are fucking,each other, stare at each other. And there's this close up of Hannah realizing and just being in
30:00shock. And it just destroys the viewer. Oh my God, you're just, we all know that pain. And noteven if you haven't been through that particular situation, that idea of this is happening.This is real. I'm not making it up. Killer. God, she does it so beautifully. It's actually themost heartbreaking thing I've ever watched. Ever watched? That's big. Yeah, it really got me. Itreally reminded me of something I'd been through and it fucked me off.A personal thing, okay, yeah, I hear it.Jess is probably my favourite, by the way. You didn't answer the question.Marnie's mum, I think.
30:34Okay. Sorry, do you know, I'm not kidding you.Because Hannah Horvath is quite hateful, which is kind of interesting.Oh, Hannah's a fucking nightmare. Same as what's her boat from Sex and the City,Carrie. They can both get in a bin, honestly. By the end of the season,I'm just like Hannah do one, boss. Not Leonard Dunham. I mean,Lenny Dunham has said some questionable things, but she's also said,What I like Lena Dunham is because she does the fucking eat my soul vibes.She's like, look how, look at this.
30:58You wouldn't say this, would you fuck her, which I always like.Yeah, I like when she's brave.I actually met her.I was supposed to be, I auditioned for her last show too much.Oh, yeah.So what kept you in girls if it wasn't, if you were hating on Hannah?It was her writing.Oh, no, yeah, but Hannah's, but Hannah being annoying isn't like she's the cast in its entirety are fascinating.
31:20I kid you not, by the way.I was in a shop the other dayI don't know where it wasI need to think if it's in London or notand unless I'm going fucking mentalthis shop was playingone of Marnie's songsfrom when she was a pop star
31:32NoI swear to GodI was likeI'm going mad or is this someone playingbecause she does that likewhat's the song?I'm not aware of too many thingsI know what I know
31:47if you know what I meanOh wait it's a coverYeah.Oh.I don't know.Okay, so who's the original then?Oh, right.So that song was on.
31:57Who's the original?Eidickel.What I am is what I am.I know what I mean.And Emma Bunton also had quite a lot of success with that song.That is genuinely funny because I thought that was a song.Did you know what?That's so funny because it does sound like the kind of song Marnie would have written,
32:15but it actually is a cover.That whole part of the series is genuinely like, it's on a song.another level of absurd. Like, it's difficult to breathe. And something that she depicted as well,and I think in the Adam Jessa, um, uh, romantic triangle with Hannah, this is what they writereally well, because you don't hate Adam, you hate Jessa. Do you? They're really, yeah. No, hold on.When you say you, do you mean you? Yeah, me and all my friends when we were watching it. We were like,God, Adam's a dick. We were like, Jess is such a bitch. But this is what I mean about being a woman.Think about Jerry Springer.
32:51I didn't think that.Think about Jerry Springer.And I'm just here to say, I've been cheating on you this whole time.They go for the girl.They don't go for the man that's doing the cheating.It's always the other woman.Not in real life, but yeah.I think in real life you do.
33:06I've seen some gang activities in real life.I've seen female union.Yeah, I just mean like emotionally.Okay, why? Explain it.Almost like a safe place to hate each other.because it's so familiar.Okay, so give me the psychology of it.So you guys hated Jessica's why.
33:25She's broken girl code?It's not as simple as broken girl code.I think it's probably because there is a love between womenthat you don't have with a man.So when you are betrayed by a woman...That's interesting.What do you mean there's a love between womenthat you don't have with a man?
33:37That's interesting.It's almost like you expect to be betrayed by a man,but you don't expect your woman to do it to you.So when it does happen or occur,it's a different kind of pain.And I was watching one of the feud shows, which are one of some of my favorite shows, those Ryan Murphy shows.And it was the Betty Davis-Jone Crawford feud series, which is brilliant.And at the beginning, they say, feuds are not about anger.
34:00They're about pain and fear.And any kind of feud that I've had with another woman in my personal life or in my work life for both of us involved, it has not been about anger.It's about our own pain and our own fear.And that's just something I'm only learning like now in my 40s.Because you think that these, you think women have taken things from youor women have made you feel a certain way or stepped into something that was yours.And actually what happens when you get older is you realize, you know,you actually just share a lot with people.
34:34There are certain people you share things with.You share history with.And it's not about that is mine, that is yours.It's just you share a life with them.And you're kind of connected to them in a way.That's interesting.which should be beautiful.It should be a really beautiful thing.
34:50But there's a lot of pain and fear in this idea of being chosen,whether it's chosen by a job or chosen by a man.Is that specific to women?No, this is people.The reasons might be specific.Yeah, maybe there's a different feeling of chosen.Being as a woman, you do feel like you're waiting to be chosen more, maybe.Oh, sorry, wait. What do you mean by man?
35:10By love.Oh, you're talking about a romantic, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're kind of fighting over a guy thing.Yeah, but it's not simple as that, Jay.I mean, like, it puts you just into a state of fight or flight oftenbecause of how often in your long life as a woman you feel that you're waiting to be chosen.Whether it's by love or by work.I know, and it is up to us to change that,but I'm trying to be honest about where that pain comes from.
35:37Yeah.And that fear.The chosen thing just feels so powerless, you know, as you say it.It's just like, just this complete,Just this complete loss of like, just all outside.Yes, external.To be chosen, someone else has wild that.I mean, I'm fucking working on it, and I refuse to live like it forever.
35:58But I'm looking at my past and seeing that's where I went wrong a lot.And that's where a lot of my pain derived from.I don't think it's just you.I've heard many women say this.It just feels, listen, it's nice being chosen by people like as a general concept,like for someone to choose to speak to you or choose to message your, like it's, you know, it'sdefinitely beautiful but to, to, for us to place our sense of self in that is, is tough, that'stough man. It's dangerous. Like I don't exist until someone chooses me, like what the fuck?
36:31Yeah, yeah. And that is painful living. So you're not even fighting the person because of the guy,really. You're fighting a person because that you've, your sense of self is in that other person.You're fighting over.Exactly.The role you've given yourself.It's like a fucking, it's like a fractal of your, of your soul is in someone else'spossession and you're actually trying to fight for that part of your soul.It's not even the fucking dude or the, or the woman or whatever.
36:57It's fucking nuts.No, it's all about ourselves.It's all about ourselves.I want to write about this stuff.I'm really inspired by your writing course and how much writing you're doing.I know you had a little bit of a block, but I know that you're making some great work.No, I had a block because of this fuck.because I'm trying to work through this
37:13what I can only describe as a mini,but very real ego death, just in this like...I love an ego death.Do you, though?It's very painful.I mean, no, but I had one in January,and it was fucking extraordinary.Yeah, it's been a lot.
37:29I was like...Very painful.It's just a long...The universe has kind of been knocking at the doorwith it for a while.I genuinely do believe that I'm in, like,conversation with the universe,or like my version of the universe.
37:41I guess some people would call it God,but it's like there's just this, it's weird.I'll go through something and I have like an egoic self,which is like my persona and like myself in the worldin the material world.And then I do feel, again, I might sound nuts there,but I do feel like I can hear my highest selfso I can hear like, so something will happen
38:01and I'll know it go, yeah, this is a good thing.But I will not experience it as that.I'll literally at some point be experiencing like unbelievable,almost debilitating anxiety.But then there's this other thing which is like, yeah, this is...Because the thing is, I dish this out.I know this to people.Some people are like, oh, I'm going through it because this is...
38:20And I'm like, great.You'll literally be stronger as a result.That is the only way we grow is through resistance.Babe, but that's life.It's just, there's telling someone...It's how we grow, though.It's actually how we grow.Yeah, but they're saying to someone,
38:32this is how we grow and then saying to yourself,this is how I grow.Yeah, no, it's just...But I know, I do know, I can hear it.It's about learning to sit in what is ungrowing.comfortable and realize you can survive it.Ah, my life. Interesting.Anyway, I've got to tell you something that I did.
38:58Okay, go on.I've been having an absolutely horrible time in the last two weeks,underworld journeying through my shit.And my friend said, would you like to come and do Cambo with me?And I was like, yes, I fucking would.Look at my Canbo scars.You just got poisoned by a fucking friend.bro. I got poisoned by the frog. I let that frog run me. Oh, that looks kind of gangsta. You should get that tattooed. I love the shoulder tats. That's kind of cold. What the fuck? Isn't it kind of like tribal? So for people listening just on audio, for people just listening, I have two dots on my left shoulder and two dots on my right. Is that the first time we done something like that? No. I did Canbo six years ago, about a month before mom and I went to make the Caribbean show and I was heartbroken and really trying to expel that.
39:49And it didn't really take the heartbreak away, but I ended up going to the Caribbean and making a show that changed my life with my mum.So regardless of...I don't think you can vomit out, heartbreak, I'll be honest, if you pay, but I mean, like, it's, it's, you can, you can, it can take the edge off.You can take the edge off it.You can take the edge off it. Soften the edge of it. Soften the sides, we're still there.You've got to go through it.Yeah, you have to.Well, we should probably explain what Cambo is for people that don't know. So it's a frog medicine from, I guess, South America.
40:19America. Yeah, probably. It's not illegal in this country. Isn't it? No, it's not. But it is illegalin other places, but it's not illegal in this country. But you have to do it with a practitionerand we did it, we did it with a practitioner and a woman who knows what she's doing at her beautifulhome in Hampstead Heath and it's, you know, it's handled correctly. You don't want tofuck with this shit. We're talking jungle magic. So Cabo is not illegal in the UK, but it isunregulated, so it's not something to try on your own at all. You are burnt in places that youwant to be on your legs and the back of your neck I went for my two shoulders and mythe lady described it as gateways so they are opening gateways and then they put the frog
40:57medicine into said spots and you fucking go on a journey. You fucking go baby. Oh shit. It's nottrippy though right or is it? No not hallucinogenic because I can't handle that. It's justpurgy and I didn't really put Maddie my friend that I went with that she's gone about sixtimes in the last year and she was like,so I didn't purge that much.I sort of half purged, but I feltfantastic afterwards. Have you everdone it? No, I've actually not done Canbo, no.
41:26Okay. But I did a plant ceremonyrecently and I purged for the first time in sevenyears. Wow.It's genuinely like fucking mind-boggling whatthese plants do. I know.I mean, listen, we all go through shitand I'm just going through shit and we look fordifferent ways. In what space?
41:42It's just a lot of doors closing.Do you struggle with compartmentalising?Do you feel if a door shut romantically that it affects your career?Do you feel like if it shuts your career, does it affect you romantically that kind of vibe?Yeah, I'm a bit of a fucking, an emotional open book, so it all affects everything.Totally.I had an amazing business thing happened last week.Unbelievable dream-making shit.
42:03But there's some other really deep stuff in my life happening as well.It's just a bit of a tough time.So I was like, fuck it.Let's do Canbo.I did a soul healing a few days ago because my friend suggested it, Balinese soul healer.And he said one particularly fantastic thing after the soul healing,which he asked me if I'd ever heard of the term empath,and said that I am one.
42:26I was like, sorry, what? What did you say?And he's like, do you know of empaths?And I went, uh, I do know of empaths.Explain yourself, please.But what, can I say, can I say though?And then he had a fight with the Buddhist soul healer.His explanation of what empath was was very different,even to what we spoke about last week, which is fascinating to me.
42:46Fascinating here, like a Balinese soul-induced version.He said that I have the ability to go into rooms,feel other people's energy and actually shift it.That was his idea of empaths.He said, have you ever had situations where,have you ever had situations where you've spoken to a personand they've said, I feel loads better now,or they've come over to yours,
43:16and said, I feel better now.He said that, like, my presence can shift people's emotions,which, to be fair, that has happened.But I rebuke this.I rebuk...You are fucking empath.This.Do you know what?
43:31That really stayed with me all week, by the way, Jordan.All week.I didn't mean that about being an empath.That was wrong.I didn't mean that.Oh, I should have said that.So I should have just said what he said,which is my energy can shift rooms.
43:43No, listen, look.I thought I personally think that...there could have been some other words he could have chosen.But ultimately, from that perspective of having some kind of involuntary, like,relativity between other people's feelings is fine.What I still denounce and stand ten toes onis the fact that if people were true empaths,then me challenging it would not upset them.
44:07Okay.All right then.Well, enjoy barley.Thanks for listening to Miss Me.This is a Persephoneka show.
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