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Palmer Luckey: Autonomous Weapons Are Ancient and Why Anduril Won't Build Humanoids | Moonshots Live | EP #295

September 28, 20260 comments♥ 0
00:04Wow, it's so much brighter out here.It is.It's, you know, the future is bright.There's lens flare in the future.Yeah.So, welcome everybody to the Oscars of optimism.That, of course, we're opening up the summitwith the King of Autonomous Weapon Systems.
00:23All right.So I want to start with the fact that we're awarding three X prizes this week.Palmer, congratulations for winning our...wildfire XPRIZE. Thank you so much. Yeah. This one's been a long time in the works.It has it. Let's get the slide up here. So Palmer won two point two million dollars forAnderrol. As if you needed. A million of that from Lockheed, which was kind of interesting.We do a lot of work with Lockheed. Yeah. We also compete with them, but we, in the defensebase, it's a, you know, we, we compete with their fighter jet division and we
01:08partner with them on some of their payloads.And so we do a lot of stuff together.But me and you have both been trying to getthose autonomous firefighting stuff going for a long time.For a while.I mean, you got this prize announced back in 2019.It's been a long time.Andrels, one of our first two products,
01:22was an autonomous firefighting tankthat we started building in 2017, finished in 2019.It's insane that we let fires become conflagrationsbefore you put them out.And it's kind of insane that people are saying,oh, the technology's finally made this possible.And I'm not going to correct him too often in public.But it's, I mean, this has been possible for over a decade.
01:44Yeah.It's just that it's become politically, politically impossible to ignore the problem now.I'll watch a one minute video clip of what your team achieved.And if you'd walk us through it here.Sure.So this was an example of what we were doing at the test site,where we were detecting fires, classifying fires.What you don't really see in here is that you also need to reject false fires.
02:08That was part of the test as well.So you have to know, who's a guy smoking a cigarette?Who's a guy, what's a campfire?What's a road flare?And then what's something that shows the characteristicsof real fire?That's what you need to flag to people.That's what you need to flag to emergency services.
02:23And then you need to match make the type of fireto the right asset that's in the area.And so you want to basically use the most cost-effective thingthat can respond and get there in time.And if something's growing faster,you might need something different,if it's in woods versus on a brush hill, you might need something different.And so, you know, it's about detection, classification, rejection,
02:46matchmaking, and then going and hitting the target.And the last thing I'll say is that with most of what we do,our work with the military, you go through many of these same steps.But if you find a target, let's say it takes you, you know, an hour to get to somebodyversus 10 minutes.It usually doesn't make as much of a difference.When you're talking about fire, though, the difference between 10 minutes and an hour response,totally different tools you're going to need to respond with.
03:17You know, a bomb is a bomb whether or not it takes a day or an hour or a minute to get there.But when a fire is masticizing, you need to pick the right thing that can put it out before it gets too large.Amazing.You know, we're going to be announcing something in a month's time.that you're funding a new X-Prize, and it's going to be secret until then, but we're going to tease it now.Another $10 million prize.Would you share with us what we're going to do?Sure, you know, we should keep the details secret because there's some good twists.
03:58But suffice to say that I'm not interested in joining the race to push AI forward withmy money, I think that the artificial intelligence side of models is pretty well covered by plentyof people. I think we've not been doing enough understanding biological intelligence, particularlybeyond people. And so this is going to be a prize around understanding how animals thinkand making so that we can communicate with them 10 times better than the current state ofthe art for the current smartest species. And not just trained animals, but wild animals in theirown language. Amazing.And I think that there's actually a lot that we're going to be able to learn.
04:38I mean, if you look at large language models, they're kind of this, you know, they're basedon humanity's way of thinking and communicating distilled. And I think that there's plenty to learnfrom all of the other species that are on this planet. And I wouldn't be surprised if it hasapplications for AI, particularly AI, where you need to be more efficient, more power efficient,more time efficient.You know, a different point of view.Two pets are better than one.Whatever metaphor you want to use.
05:10Love it, love it.All right, I want to kick off the first official question here.P-Doom.You're in the AI industry, the defense industry.What's your P-Doom?I'm just not worried about AI-dooming.I guess I'm not worried about AI doing the killing.I'm very, very worried about evil people
05:31using moderately competent AI to do evil things.Exactly.And I am kind of frustrated by a lot of peoplewho are new to the dooming hobby.It's sort of like how we had to deal with the war in Ukraine happens,and all of a sudden all these peoplewho have had the dumbest opinions you've ever heardabout the military for their whole life
05:57and people who believed we lived at the end of historythat we had moved past conflict, that we lived in a world where you could just write a nasty letterin the UN, forgetting that that only works if it's backed up by credible threat of violence.And then all of a sudden they change their minds.You're seeing this with AI.People who have not thought about this problem for more than a couple years or maybe even just acouple months are saying, oh, my God, this is the biggest threat to humanity.These are people who have spent almost no time actually analyzing what the largest threats
06:29to humanity are.They haven't spoken to any of the experts in this area.They certainly weren't buying freeze-dried food and building prepper bunkers, you know,like me and many of my buddies who have indulged fantasies about what Doom could look likeand also thought realistically about it.And so, yeah, the AI Doom is way down the list for me.I'm a big optimist.I think it's going to massively reduce the cost of resource extraction, processing, transformation.
06:56You're going to see every part of society.subject to the same economies of scale and efficiency that automated industries that automatedwithout AI have seen.So think like agriculture or textiles, you can buy two weeks of calories for less than onehour of federal minimum wage labor.That's crazy.Let's give it up for Palmer here.You're going to see that for everything.
07:24Dave.So I got a really pressing question on my mind.I'm kind of a feeds and feeds and chips and AI foundation models guy.And so when you're putting systems in the field, weapons in the field,you can put the intelligence inside it.And this has always been a big problem for the Air Force.If we're going to start flying drones instead of pilots,who's going to unleash the weapons and how's that decision going to get made?
07:48And the downside of transmitting it back to headquarters is you have latency.The upside is you have a lot more compute.What you can put locally in a device, in a robot in the field,in a plane is limited, but it's really, really fast.So what's your philosophy on, like, you know,I think a lot of people would say,well, are we going to have self-contained decision-making weaponswandering around enemy territories,
08:10or are we going to have, you know, control at the head?Yeah, how's it work?More or less.The real concern isn't so much the latencyor the speed of computation.The problem is that if you rely on, you know,a central location to do your compute,you now need to have command and control
08:29that has a good high bandwidth communicationback and forth between you and potentially thousandsor tens of thousands of active assets.And if your enemy jams your communicationsor intercepts your communicationsor hacks your communications, you're done.Or worse, they just skip targeting all the stuff in the fieldand they go for the place where it's all being controlled.
08:52We saw this.There was a, there was a, there was a, there was this,documentary that George Lucas was working on and the Trade Federation. They had their centralAI command and control blown up. And that was how the Battle of Nabu actually resolved was allthe battle droids lost. Oh yeah, they all fell over. That's right. They all fell over. And so I thinkthat that's the practical reality that's driving, the need to have autonomy living, not backhome but forward. There's other areas like you go underwater. You can't talk to them. And sometimesyou could talk to things, but you don't want to. Having radio emissions actually exposes you
09:29necessarily. And so for better or for worse, you're going to need this. I actually don't thinkit's as much of a shift as people think. There's a lot of people who look at, they say, oh, my God,Pandora's box is being opened. You're going to have weapons that are making their own killdecisions. And they don't recognize the reality, which is that that's been the case for decades.You look at the, you look at the, you look at the, you look at the Aegis system on destroyers.It has a fully autonomous mode. You can flip up.a button and it will shoot down anything that comes within whatever range you programmed it withwithout any human confirmation.
10:02You look at SeaWiz and C-RAM for shooting down incoming missiles, incoming mortar, incoming artilleryfire, incoming missiles, or incoming speedboats.Same thing.You can put them in fully autonomous modes.And, I mean, going back to into Vietnam, we had missiles that you could launch from an aircraft.They flow over the horizon, tried to identify the right radio emitters that they believedcorresponded with a surface-air missile site and then struck them without any, you know,the person had to decide, I'm going to send it in this area, they're going to look for this
10:31signal, and I know that there's this probability they're going to get it right. That decision isgoing to remain with people, but autonomous weapons are widely, widely, there's a whole other talkwe're not going to have today, but I do have a rant about this, where actually autonomousweapons have existed for thousands of years. If you look at, and they're defined as kind of weaponsthat can execute the intent of what you program to do independent from the operator or the engineer.You look at, for example, pitfall traps that allow people to walk over them,but then capture the commander on his horse when he walks by and it's heavier.You look at certain poison traps that would kill people who had certain characteristics,
11:13not kill people who had other characteristics or not kill animals.You look at many types of landmines and sea mines and even torpedoes.And so it depends on your exact definition, but even going into myth where people are creatinggolems that can you go out and fight on their, fight on their behalf or defend their city.I guess my argument is we've had autonomous weapons for a very, very long time.It's just a new set of technology that's making them better.So technical question on that, the foundation models that go into those remote systems.Right now, yeah, well, right now the open source models are all Chinese.
11:52So I'm pretty sure you're not going to be putting Chinese models into remote weapons.Are you going to build Anderol foundation models, or how are you going to get AI in those devices?I mean, we've been doing it since 2017.So we're way ahead of everybody.We're a decade beyond that question.I think that we also don't, the foundation models that people are building are not the types of models you want to be doing this.They're not, they're largely non-deterministic.They're non-auditable.
12:19It's a very different category.The thing that we are building, unfortunately, has very few consumer applications and vice versa.There are, of course, are LLM use cases for defense that make a lot of sense, but it's notguiding my missile or classifying radar, radar feeds.I mean, we're also, we can't build models that ingest text and then spit out text.I need to process raw data data feeds.I need to process sonar data from passive listening stations on submarines.That's it's pretty highly specialized and I will take some credit here
12:53All these people who are talking about how AI is going to change everythingThey are mostly recent converts and real industries. You might notice the acronym is AISo and that was not that was not a mistakeAlex jump in. Yeah, I think maybe dovetailing on our discussion of driving bench we're now in an era when it's possible to take frontier models drop them into a robotic embodiment andand get pretty stunning results.So I'd love to ask you a question,maybe about the scaling hypothesisas it applies to autonomous weapons systems,
13:27or autonomous systems in general.If you have to extrapolate out,is there a Moore's law,is there an experience curve for what,as obviously the capabilities of underlying frontier models,whether they're from frontier labs properor from AI, as those progress,do we see any equivalent of a Moore's law
13:47for the autonomous system?themselves and maybe the second half of the question would be do you thinkultimately we achieve some sort of convergence andrel it makes a variety ofembodiments in a variety of different form factors do you see ultimately somegeneral purpose category killer robot that is equivalently the generalistrobotic embodiment just like we now have generalist models that are capable ofdoing substantially any task no I don't think so on the defense side I thinkfit for manufacturing and for hospitality and medicine, you might see this because you get economies
14:25of scale that are really material for those types of businesses.And a humanoid robot may not be the optimal form for a burger griller.And it may not be the optimal form for a firefighter.It may not be the optimal form for a nurse or an assembly technician.Salima's smiling.But even if it's not optimal, the fact that it is shared with humanity in its formmakes it a really, really good form factor.Now I can make one robot that does all of these things,
14:53and I would probably rather have a, let's say,robot that's 5% slower or less reliablethan the optimal burger-flipping robotif I can share commonality with that nurse.In defense, that's not really the casebecause you are in this constant raceto not just barely beat your adversary,but to massively overpower them.
15:17to try and make it where the goal is not to just barely win a conflict on the margins.It is to fight unfair, to have overwhelming threat of violence,underpinning whatever diplomatic overtures or negotiations you have.And everyone's always pushing the limit.So if I have a jet that has a reliable 5% every time edge over the enemy,that's worth paying a lot of money for, right?And I think the loss in performance you would see through lack of specialization probably makes it non-viable.Like to go to the extreme, like, you know, I build robot submarines, and those have a specialized form that needs to dive to 6,000 meter depth and sit on the bottom of the ocean for months at a time.
16:05And then I have other stuff that's on the surface and, you know, their robotic systems that, you know, roll up a hill and then they loiter.and then I have other things that are aerial vehiclesthat are doing very specialized tasks.And I just can't imagine a convergence that would make sense.Unless you're telling me that we're going to get something cool,like humanoids that have like, you know,onboard fusion reactors and they can dive to 6,000 feet depth.So, Palmer, why are you building those?
16:29I mean, if anybody, you should...Look, you could potentially build such a thing,but then very quickly you realize that specializationwould allow you to build something even better.You say, okay, I've built something that can dive to the bottom of the oceanand fly to the moon, man, it could get to the moon a lot faster if it didn't have to also die to the bottom of the ocean.So I think defense is going to be this one where kind of like, you know, you look at, for example, the difference between cars,where everything has shared platforms within a manufacturer, you know, manufacture, and they also share a lot of the same standards and interfaces.
17:03I think that you compare it with like motorsport where it's all completely different and it's continuously pushing forward.I think the defense side is probably always going to be this weird branch of exotic, highly specialized robotic systems.You know, Palmer, I expected if anybody was going to be building humanoid robots would be you.No, no, the opposite.You said absolutely not.I've opted out because I believe in them.If I didn't believe that humanoid robotics had such a powerful future, then I would probably build them.But I want Anderil to build things that wouldn't exist otherwise.
17:36That's what I generally want to do.You want to maximize your marginal impact.Correct. All the other people are already doing a great job. I want to use their robots and do things with them.I think humanoid are going to be an incredible general artificial intelligence interface between AI and remote systemsand a lot of legacy platforms that were designed for a person to pull the lever, push the button, read the screen.We're going to be able to take all those and automate them without replacing them entirely.So you have a lot of things like radar systems that cost millions, tens of millions,even hundreds of millions of dollars.
18:12Nobody wants to man them during a hot conflict because they're the first thing that's going to go.But if I can put humanoid robots in them, I've now been able to automate them without that.So, yeah, I'm not going to build humanoids.This is also why Anderl is not building, like, small quadcopter attack drones.Too many other companies doing a great job.There's a lot of areas.And we're not going to do space launch.Like, we do space products.
18:33We operate a lot of our own satellites.and a lot of our own sensors in space.But I don't want to be a launch provider.That's for all the other billionaires to...Yeah, yeah.Let them handle that.That's fantastic.Phileem.
18:45You know, when you're operating industrial industries,you're decentralizing defense, right?The Pentagon and Ministries of Defense globallyhave been the most centralized entityin the history of humanity.You're sitting on the edge dealing with that.You must have a massive immune system problem,where people inside the entity are going,
19:07now we've done that before, we can do it better.They either try and suck you in or they try and spit you out.How are you navigating that interfacebecause you're doing it in a way that I've never seen anybody succeed,do it?I think that this is a problem that's very, very hard at the beginning.Oh, I said the wrong thing.Wow.
19:29Well, until someone gets on the intercom and tells us to go.The AI is $1 million.Congratulations.What were we talking?What was it?Seriously?I knew the intercom was going to come on.What were we talking about again?
19:49Centralization of PentagonThat's right.I'm going to keep talkingto somebody tells me that I can't.So we've gotten through this event.I think early on there was that concernthat Anderall was not going to be able to get through that.Our hardest problem raising money.
20:04Skippy, would you please shut this down?I've been through enough of theseto know how it's.going to work. There we go. I imagine. One of our early problems was that our investors saidPalmer, potential investors. They said, look, we believe that you'll be able to build things thatwork. We believe you'll be able to build products that are great, but we don't believe the governmentis capable of actually purchasing them at scale. Because, I mean, you talk about centralization.You know about the issues for people who don't. Until just a few years ago, you had about
20:3480% of MDAPs, major defense acquisition programs. So basically anything that matters,80% of MDAPs went to five companies, and that's it. And I mean, you've seen incredibleconsolidation centralization. Anderall has been successful because we use, we're less of acontractor and more of a product company. We use our own money to build products, then we sell them.And we've gotten to the point now where people in government have done very, very well,betting on Anderle, and then miraculously, we finish on schedule, we finish on time,and then the next program manager says, I know how I can make my job easy. I just give thecontract to Anderle. Got it. So it's got to take guts to enter the defense industry, right?
21:19The most incestuous, you know, self-licking glycine cone on the planet.Yeah. And what insanity, you know, gave you the balls to do that?The insanity was the reason that I got into it.The first page of our pitch deck said,Anderall will save taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars a yearby making tens of billions of dollars a year.The idea being we're not just making products that we're selling,but we are displacing the systems that cost needlessly 10 times what they should.
21:52And yeah, thank you.And so it does seem crazy, but, you know, I can't put myself on the same pedestal as him,but one of my mentors and idols growing up and then also early in my career was John Carmack,the founder of his software.John is great.John is incredible.And for people who don't know, he's basically the inventor of the modern 3D game engine,first-person shooters, also started a rocket company that competed in the...
22:20He was competing in the XPRIES.And I remember...And he was one of the, if not the only one to be doing reusable vertical takeoff and landing.Which nobody else was even trying to do.And I remember there's this...name on the side of his vehicles, NVIDIA.How do you pronounce that thing?If I would only know.
22:37That's right.He was using, so, yeah, he was using, he was building his own sensor fusion algorithms.He was processing them on modern, or on, you know, commercial style graphics card, hardware,using his game programming experience.Anyway, the point is, it was called Armadillo.Armadillo aerospace.Yeah.That's right.
22:56And the thing, and, yeah, they were doing vertical takeoff and landing long before SpaceX was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was,I mean, doing anything.Yeah, no, before it existed.For sure.That's right.And so, but anyway, the point is he, he, I, he ended up becoming the CTO of Oculus VR.I managed to poach him away from Id.But after he left, he went to work on AI, actually, even before I did.
23:21And so he started, he started his own company to work on, on, on, on, on AI.And, and I said, why are you, why are you doing this?You know, the odds of you succeeding.And to be clear, I started.still believed AI was going somewhere, but he said, I'm going to start a company that's just goingall in on the end state. Like, I'm not trying to incrementally get there. It's just all in onAGI. And the point that he made was, Palmer, even if I've got a 1% chance of succeeding,which maybe is an overestimation, but suppose I have a 1% chance of succeeding and suppose
23:51that I could pull it off, the risk-adjusted outcome kind of demands that I do it, and that was how Ifelt about defense. If there was a 1% chance that I could help solve this problem, then it was onethat would be massively impactful to work on versus, let's say, starting another gaming company,getting into space launch, you know, building a car company, which all of the billionaires,they end up doing the same thing. You don't have enough people getting into defense or putting on abat suit. It's just cars and rockets and they just go in circles like that for, for, for, so, you know,When I interviewed you on the Moonshots podcast last time, you mentioned that you're part of a billionaires' boys club chat.Yeah, yeah.
24:39Are they working on anything worthwhile at this point?I mean, I gave them shit for saying, like, God, you've got all this capital, solved the world's biggest problems.I think the B-boys are doing a lot better now than we were a few years ago.Okay.They're stepping up.And the thing we're talking about is I was giving a lot of people a hard time, especially some retired B-boys.And I was telling him, what are you doing?You have, because money is one of the resources they have.
25:05But one of the resources people don't talk about, especially for the retired B-boys,is that they have credibility, which would allow them to gather people around them,teams around them, and capital.Like, they could, and it's just sitting there, unutilized if they're doing nothing.They have the credibility in that people trust them as a leader to be able to lead anorganization like that.They could have the same ideas and the same words.is somebody who's equally smart or smarter,
25:32and they'll still do better for that.So my point of them is you have a responsibility,not only as someone who's got a lot of capital yourself,but who's got this underutilized resourceof the ability to do more.If you're not doing that, then are you really,like, what are you even doing?Anyone can sit on a boat.
25:50Few people can start another multi-billion-dollar companythat does something that matters.And the good news is those of them, I think,I think a lot of people have gotten the itch to solve some of these problems that are out there.So we've got...Nialism is on the downs.Maybe the solution is we need more T-boys and if you were B-boys.Yeah, that's an interesting point.
26:12Although, like I said, I think most of the T-boys, I think they seem like they keep pretty busy.That's the point.I don't have a problem with B-boys who don't do enough.Like, some people, they mistake what I say.Like, oh, Palmer wants other billionaires to work on defense or energy oror biology.My point is not that people need to distract themselves by doing more things.A lot of people can only do one thing.
26:37And that was what I did for a long time.What I hate is the people who are not doing anything.That is like a repulsive to me.So maybe a message to the audience,you get to join the B-Boy's Slack group or whatever this is,Telegram, if you're doing something new and differentiated.The group actually got shut down.and we've been talking about now, we need to do a B-Boys 2.0.
27:01But I think people post...Maybe some B-girls as well?I think people posted the wrong memes a few too many times.Boom.There was a time where there were no B-girls,and then there was this Business Insider article whining about it.And the reality is like, it's just like me and some guys.Like, you know, it's not like this isn't like the Illuminati Conference.
27:23You know, it's like, they're like, oh, there's a group.And, you know, but no women have been invited.I'm like, it's not that no women have been invited.It's just like me and some, some of my boys.But actually, there was a, there was a, there was a, there was a, there was a, there was a, there was a girl in it by the end.So, yeah, we need to restart that.We need to restart that group.So you're in Facebook commercials now.
27:44Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.So, so if you met a VR is out, how does it compare against your vision of what you wanted to achieve?Is it, yeah.Look, it does a lot of the things that, uh, I'm not.It's not exactly what I would make, were I the guy who's waving the magic wand and...You've got lots of magic wand spinning the cad, but look, the new meta-v-r glasses are a lot closer in a lot of ways.So I've long been a believer that you need to decouple the compute and the battery from the head.It should not even saying the head totally.
28:19It's more the front.So before Oculus Quest.So Oculus Quest was the last thing that I worked on before they fired me.And the prototypes at the time were a prototype series code named Santa Cruz.And we were actually showing that publicly before they fired me.And Santa Cruz had the battery and compute on the back of the head.And then the part of the soft tissue on the front of your head was kept as light as possible.And then at some point after they got rid of me, they jammed it all into one big giant lump in the front.
28:49And they ruined the ergonomics.They forgot why you need a top strap.But, you know, it bothers-Serve them right.It bothers me most, look, it bothers me mostly at this pointbecause the Oculus Rift CV-1,which was the first modern consumer VR headset,it got the ergonomics more or less perfect in 2016,
29:10and, you know, we were showing it off in 2015,and literally nobody has done as good as it,and it's been over a decade.Every single person screws it up, even Apple.And I just, I don't, I can't comprehend it.How, how could it be that the ergonomic design led by a 19-year-old kid with no experience is better than anything that anyone has come up with since?Anyway, the new men of your glasses are the closest thing.And they're very lightweight.
29:40They've off-borded the compute.They've off-boarded the batteries.They have really high-quality pass-through.It has a feature that I invented for CV-1 called Transformo Fabric, which they do not call it.Basically using fabric, a soft, flexible, black, black, light-absorbing matte fabric to, one, minimize reflections, but to basically seal the cavity between and around the lenses.That means that you can move them, and the fabric just stretches to meet where the lenses are for different interpupillary distances, rather than having, like, sliding mechanical interfaces and plastic.And they brought Transformo fabric back for the first time since my era.So I'm a huge fan, and it's a third of the price of Apple's product and somewhat higher pixel density.
30:29I think that's pretty extraordinary.Oh, and one-eighth the weight.Amazing.Amazing.Pretty good.Let's close on this.We've got, you know, 1,500 entrepreneurs, moonshot visionaries and tens of thousands watching on the live stream.What's your advice?
30:47what, you know, what did you learn in high school that made you succeed at the speed you did?We were talking about this on the plane right back.I mean, I was really lucky to, I guess maybe not lucky.I did it.Well, you are lucky.That's right.I am lucky.I started an online community called Mod Retro when I was 14 or 15.
31:12It was an internet forum for people who were modifying vintage game consoles and computers,building handheld units, improving the performance in a variety of ways.We had a few thousand active members and a whole team of volunteer moderators and administratorswith me, me at the top of it for some reason.And I learned a lot of valuable lessons about how you can build an organization, how you market an organization,how you get people to believe in what you're doing.I learned a lot about dealing with the types of problems you deal with when you're running a company.With humans.
31:46Well, I mean, you have a tale as old as time.You've got two people.They're both brilliant.They're both very good at what they do, and they hate each other, and they disagree over something.You need to somehow mediate the conflict or separate them in a way that allows you to get the value that allows both them to contribute value to the greater project, but not have them hate you, not have them lose faith in the broader thing, but also you not kill each other.But sometimes that means you need to reconcile things between the two.Sometimes it means that you need to put one guy over here and one guy over here.And sometimes you need to make sure that they don't know that that's what you're doing as you do it.
32:25I'm not saying that's the key to running a successful business is the management of the two assholes problem.But it's, you know, and once you make it a three-body problem now.But it's that and a hundred things like it that I learned running Mod Retro that I was able to take into starting.Oculus to carry forward into what I'm doing in my other companies. And that's why I'm a strongbeliever that kids should get a job. And I also had a job starting when I was 14, so I learnedhow the real world works too. But I'm a huge fan of people doing things at a scale that'slarger than just themselves. In other words, don't just do a project. Do a project with someone else.Do a project with other people. Build in the open, learn the good parts of that, the bad parts
33:15of that, it's been extremely useful to me.And has building changed in the age of AI?What advice do you have?Again, we've been saying on the pod for a while now, you know, forget about grad school,you know, even college is a maybe, you didn't go to college.You know, in high schoolers should, what, find a purpose they care about and use AI to goand code it?What's your closing advice here on that?
33:40You know, one of the reasons I have not been as upset as some people aboutNo, that's funny.There's something on the screen.It's telling us to not talk about something.I just wanted to make sure you saw that.I did.We're not going to talk about...Don't think about it.
33:57All right, great, great.The...There's a lot of people who love their craftand they love what they do.And they are rightfully mourningthe end of, for example,coding things by hand,top to bottom, start to finish,
34:14as anything but like a craft endeavor.And I understand that.It's the same way that a lot of artists felt when the camera was invented.They wind and complained about how it ruined art, and it made it so that anybody could push a button.And these things are always painful for the people who are masters of their craft.I already got screwed in that way a long time ago.When you're a founder, you don't get to actually work in any of the tech anyway.All the other people get to have all the fun.
34:39And so, you know, I like electrical engineering.I like optical engineering.I like mechanical engineering.I don't get to do any of it because the job of a founder,is to hire people to displace them and to do what they thought they could do or what they like theylike doing better. The job, I've said many times to people, if you want to work on technology,work for somebody else. If you want to work on nonstop bullshit, start a company.And so what I would say to people is, AI doesn't actually change the bullshit part of the job very much.
35:13You're still on the hook legally. You're still on the hook for all the interpersonal.personal stuff. And you can delegate some of it. But at the end of the day, it's your call,it's your decision. It's the same thing for fundraising. It's the same thing for general productarchitecture. And when people make the wrong decisions, it's your choice as to when you needto overrule them, override them, replace them. I don't see AI replacing that part of itanytime soon, not because it couldn't, but because the gains everywhere else are so much largerthat I think we've got a good 10 years of speed running all of the other parts ofof business before they cover that.
35:48So look, AI changes a lot, but I'm telling you, there's a lot of people.You are in for a rude awakening.If you are like a hobbyist coder or a hobbyist engineer and you think you're going tostart a company and you think you're going to be doing all that stuff, no.You're going to learn a hard lesson.Being a founder was always like AI took your job.It's just that other people took it.Ladies and gentlemen, it's giving up for common lucky.