Morbid - Elmer McCurdy: The Outlaw Mummy

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

In early December 1976, a film crew was shooting an episode of a popular television show at The Pike, a boardwalk amusement park in Long Beach, California. In order to prepare for the scene, the prop master moved what he believed to be a wax mannequin hanging from funhouse gallows; however, when he grabbed the mannequin by the arm, the limb broke off, revealing human bone and muscle tissue.After removing the body to the coroner’s office to be autopsied, it was revealed that what had long thought to have been a wax museum dummy was in fact the body of a man who’d died from a gunshot wound more than six decades before his body was discovered in Long Beach. After some basic detective work, investigators learned that the mummified corpse was that of Elmer McCurdy, an early twentieth-century bank robber who was shot and killed by a sheriff’s posse in Oklahoma in 1911.Removing the body from the funhouse and identifying the body allowed authorities to arrange for a proper burial, but it did little to answer the question on the minds of so many: How did the mummified body of a long-dead outlaw end up on display in a wax museum funhouse?Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!ReferencesCohen, Jerry. 1976. "Mummy identified as bandit slain in 1911." Los Angeles Times, December 11: 1.Harvey, Steve. 1979. "Bungler Elmer McCurdy... RIP... gets more attention in death than in life." Los Angeles Times, December 31: 21.Himmel, Nieson. 1976. "'Dummy' found to be a corpse." Los Angeles Times, December 9: 3.Los Angeles Times. 1976. "Mummy was Oklahoma bandit killed in 1912." Los Angeles Times, December 10: 8.Reuters. 1977. "'Wax model' identified as Oklahoma bandit." New York Times, April 15: 14.Smith, Robert Barr. 1999. "Western Lore." Wild West.Svenvold, Mark. 2002. Elmer McCurdy: The Misadventures in Life and Afterlife of an American Outlaw. New York, NY: Harper.  Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. Hey, I'm Ash. And this is morbid. Oh, whoa. What have we here? We have an old-timey case. What? So it's not mine. It is not Ashes. You know who it is.

Hi, I'm Elena. Nice to meet you all. L-O-L. L-O-L. One might say, lull, even. L-L. So this one is kind of a long time coming. I did the five-part series on Jack the Ripper. Who could forget that? Who could forget that? Not my psyche.

Nope, not nobody's. I don't know if yours can. Nope, nope, nope, nope. And while I was talking about the different theories and some of the suspects, I mentioned that there was a James Maybrick. And I said, don't worry about it. We'll talk about him. And then we didn't.

Not yet, at least. Until now. Until now. But before we even get into James Maybrick, well, you're so tricky. We're going to talk about James. James Maybrick today, but we're really going to focus on his wifey, Florence Maybrick. His Bay. Because James Maybrick was known as a suspect or like a person of interest by theorists in the Ripper case.

We'll get into that in part two of this because this is a two-part episode. But what's even more interesting, in my opinion, is how his wife was completely railroaded into a false conviction. Oh, great. One might say that's interesting. Yeah, in case you couldn't tell, I am fully of the mind and body that Florence Maybrook is innocent. I'm going to give you all the facts because she was, basically she was accused of poisoning her husband, James Maybrick. And we know a lady does like to poison. We know a lady does like to poison.

And there are some things in her case that you go, hmm, scratch your head a little. But it's, I think what I'm going to be able to prove to you today is that, She was kind of a victim of Victorian England. Society at the time, she made some decisions that kind of cost her, her freedom in the end, because of what society was like back then. Damn. And I think this was more just a morality call. She got convicted of adultery, not murder, a century. Oh, a century, I just said.

Essentially. I didn't even hear that. You could have, you could have just run with it. I said, you could have just run with it. I said you could have just run with it. You know, it's, it's, we've done a lot of recordings today. So we're tripping over our mouths today. Yeah, for real.

But yeah, I think what in the end, she really got convicted of adultery and not murder. All right. Which is what they tried her for. I'll be the judge of that. Yeah, you let me know. Partner. You let me know. So we're going to be talking about James Maybrick, who was a cotton merchant.

This is in the late 1800s that this all happened. So there's not a ton known about their childhoods or. anything like that is kind of the stuff you get is more about their adult lives. Florence Chandler, which was her maiden name. Ooh, Chandler was actually not born in England. She was born in Mobile, Alabama. Okay. In the United States.

She was born in 1862. Her father was William George Chandler, and he was a banker in Mobile, Alabama, and was also the mayor at the time. Well, shit. When he died, she was left $1,200 per year, which now, is about $35,000 per year. Damn, that's a nice little extra bonus right there. That's a little trick of change.

We love a little $35,000 a month. And what's interesting is that Florence, a lot of times in the newspapers later, was described as, like, being wealthy right out the gate. And her father was pretty wealthy, but, like, I think it was overblown a little bit that she was like this aristocrat kind of thing. Okay.

Now, when James was 42 years old, James Maybrick, and Florence was 19, they met on a ship. Hot. Quite a big age difference, obviously. Yeah, about like 1800s. I was going to say, not uncommon for the time especially. She could have been like eight and a half and he would have been like,

you're a party. That would have been horrifying. That would have been terrible. But she was 19 and they met when they were on their way from New York to England. So they were both going to England. He is actually from England. He's from Liverpool. Oh.

Yeah. Go you. Go you. That's what my stepmom would have me say. There you go. Man you. Now they go man you. I love it. Go you. Go you. Go you. Go man.

And I thought you were just saying like, go you, Florence. Oh, no, no. I'm like, you guys have a British man. Go man united. My stepmom fucking hates Liverpool. Oh, damn. The team. You're like, blah. The team. Well, the two of them fell for each other pretty quickly. Florence was beautiful. Like, truly beautiful. Yeah, anybody named Florence is. Yeah, Florence. She really was. And their relationship progressed. rest very rapidly. We got hot and heavy real quick. They were married within two weeks of meeting each other on the ocean liner. I mean, you know, it's very like Titanic. It's very that. It's very love.

It's, you know, you know. Okay. There you go. No, their wedding was on July 27th, 1881, and it was at St. James's church in London. Do you know what I wonder? Just really, what do you wonder? I'm going to go on a tail here. A tail? Go on a tail. starting to wonder, and I wish people could tell me about this. So tell me about this. Maybe they can. Maybe I don't have Twitter anymore, so good look getting into contact with me. But lately, I've been wondering if you're wedding, like the astrology season that your wedding is in, for example, there's would be cancer season. I wonder if that has any effect on your marriage. Oh, that's a really good. Yeah. Thought. Tell me.

Don't ask me because I don't know. I'm getting married during Libra season, which is all about attention. And I want my wedding to be pretty like, you know, so. Makes sense. You got married during Gemini's season. Whoa. Yeah. And on Marilyn Monroe's death date, R&P. Yeah, that's true.

That's true. I don't, wow, what does that mean? I mean, we're not chaotic. No, I feel like your marriage would probably be chaotic. Yeah, right? But also, you talk a lot. We do talk a lot. You're mutable to each other.

Gemini is like one of the most mutable signs. Oh, there you go. So yeah. All right. I don't know. Maybe it does mean a little something. Let us know. Yeah, somebody must know.

Well, either way. They're married during cancer. season. You know, it was a moment. It was a time. Was it an emotional? It was a space. It was pretty emotional.

Was it vindictive? Yes. Cancers can be vindictal if you piss them off. So, boom. Very vindictive. They went back to the United States after getting married and they lived in Norfolk, Virginia for a little while. Where?

Where did they live? Norfolk, Virginia. Where did they live, Boston? I can't say it without a Boston accent. Norfolk, Virginia? Norfolk. I can't say it. I don't know how to say.

and otherwise. Norfolk. Virginia is where they love. I know, but now I'm just, I'm negating that. And I'm just saying, Virginia is where they went. Wondering if we went to the pub before this. We did not. No, Lena doesn't even really drink. I really don't.

I just have a coffee and a water in front of me. I don't even really drink. I love it. It's true. Abo. Alaw. No. Then, so they lived there for a little while in Virginia.

And they went back to England again after a couple of years where they lived in Liverpool. where James again was from. Their home, it was like a big estate, this beautiful house that still stands. So he had money? He did. He was a cotton merchant. So he had money. Oh, the fabric of our lives. Got it. The fabric of our lives. So their home was called Battlecrease House. So when your house has a name, you know, that it means something. It was huge. It was full of a big staff. They had everything that you could want in Victorian England at the time. All right. In March 1882, they had a son named James Jr. And in 1886, they had a daughter, Gladys.

Gladys. And so, again, two kids, boy and girl, they're living the dream at that time. Yeah. Now, James, unfortunately, like James Sr., immediately was already having several extramarital affairs. I was just waiting for that sentence. Didn't take them long. Didn't take them long at all. It was like, the ink was not dry on the wedding certificate. And he was like, oh, hey, girl. Now, these were not small tris either. They were years. long affairs. There are reports that he fathered several children with at least one of these affairs. What a fucking asshole. Yeah, he was a dick. He also was known to be rather, uh, ragy. Ragey. He had quite a temper. Was he a drinker? He was a drinker, but he was more into, uh, medicinal things. He was more into the chemical. Like opium? He liked, uh, he liked medicines

with poison in them. For himself. We'll get into it. Don't worry. Yeah, for himself, which was a very it was a thing of the time. A lot of medicines of the time had strychnine in it. They had belladonna in it. They had arsenic in it. There was cyanide in things. There was like things that you would never in a million fucking years put near your face hole today. Isn't there arsenic and cigarettes technically?

There's arsenic and a ton of stuff. Yeah. But back then, and we're going to get into it in a second, people were putting it on their face. Damn. Yeah. People used to put cigarette ashes on their face to get hair color stain off. Oh, really? Like, literally, you would go to the salon in the olden days and they would have like a an ashtray.

An ashtray and that's how they would get it off. Oh, that's gross. Yeah. I cannot. Well, either way, he had a very addictive personality. Yeah, it got pretty rough, pretty quick. Again, lots of affairs, lots of everything. That was who he was.

He also was known to be a bit of a hypochondriac. And it's thought that he may have concocted a lot of illnesses to get certain medications. Because he was self-prescribing a lot of things. Oh, okay. He was also, he had a very nervous stomach. Same. He was always having digestive issues. Probably had to do with the poison. Also same. He was a very nervous, anxious man, too. Now, what is sad is that Florence knew about a lot of these affairs, and she didn't feel like she could divorce him because at the time, society very harshly viewed divorce and especially women. So she figured it really would have been worse than just enduring it. And we know what would have happened had she. got in divorce, like she basically would have had to go to the streets. Exactly.

Or back to Alabama. Yeah. So soon, unfortunately, too, James's thriving business started failing. Uh-oh. Financial troubles were beginning to plague the May bricks. And there was also reports that Florence, who was growing bored from being left alone a lot with, you know, James's work days and affair nights, she had a bit of a gambling habit. That was not helping matters either.

All right. It was all kind of a mess. Kind of starting to fall apart. Yeah. Started out real strong. seemed like they were a very happy couple, and then it kind of started crumbling from within. Yeah.

In April 1889, James's health started failing. He was complaining about his stomach being a mess. He took to bed. Florence attempted to nurse him back to health herself, but it was really only getting worse. It got so bad that his brothers, Michael and Edward, were telegram to come see him at home. Oh, man.

Because they were worried about what to do. Now, when Michael went to his bedroom, he reported that there were a ton of medicine bottles next to his side of the bed, like just bunches of bottles, which makes sense, again, because he had been ill. But upon closer inspection, they also found mixed among these bottles, some bottles of brandy and some bottles of Valentine's meat extract. I'm all set. I know that sounds horrific because I am always off put by anything that has like meat in it and it's not just meat. I mean, acceptably on cube. Yeah, it's just like, it just like freaks me out. I'm like,

If you're not just straight up meat, yeah, what are you? Meat anything is like, bleh. Yeah. But meat extract is really just concentrated meat stock. And it's usually used to make soups or broths. Oh, so like literally bullion. It can be drink.

You know what I mean? Like it can be a drinkable broth. Yucas. And he came out of the... So Michael came out of the bedroom. He let the doctor know about the cluttered mass of strange bottles in the room. And Michael claimed that, quote, he found Mrs. Maybrick changing some whiskey from one bottle to another.

and changing the labels on the bottle. Which she said, she said, yes, I did do that. And she said, quote, because of the sediment in the bottle. Oh. So she said she was just moving because it was starting to have that nastiness. Yeah. But why would you change the labels? And mom, you know.

When the brothers arrived also, like right when they had come, they spoke to the doctor right away. And it was a doctor who was caring for him that was coming to the house. And also like a nursemaid who, she was a salesman. who she was essentially like a housemaid. She really wasn't like a nurse nurse. It's very weird. Like when you see reports like who these people actually are.

Yeah. Because a lot of them are like double triple duty. Like nanny for the kids, housemaid. Yeah. Also nurse. This wasn't just their one job. And it seemed that James was really in a bad way health-wise for at least two weeks up until this point, like consistently bad.

And after speaking to the doctor, the brothers both agreed that it was clear that he wasn't being properly cared for by by Florence especially. Mm-hmm. And apparently, Florence had been kind of acting as the main health care provider for some time before she even called the doctor in. And so when they questioned her about this, like, why'd you wait so long to call the doctor? She was kind of offended and was like, well, I'm his wife. Like, that's my job.

Yeah. I should be. And she was like, I've taken care of him before. He has digestive issues. Like, this will happen sometimes. Yeah. This is just worse. He's got the ips.

He's got the ibs. But, you know, they were a little like, hmm. So the servants in the house and the brothers actually banned her from the room at one point. Because of the suspicion, they were like, I'm suspicious of you, these bottles. They immediately were like, she poisoned him. Oh. Like, nothing to tell this except for the bottle thing, which you could be like, that's weird. Yeah.

But to just assume that she poisoned him. Right. Especially when he's had issues like this in the past. It's like, you don't, what? Well, and then, on top of this, so they banned her from the room for a couple days, James didn't get any better. And she's not in the room. Right. So she's not continuing to poison him.

Like, shouldn't he be getting better? Yeah. If you ban her, no. Right. Well, that didn't matter, apparently, to them. Now, according to James's brothers, they said that it was after seeing the bottle label thing happen that Florence, that James got much worse. So they saw that change of the bottles. they saw the label thing.

She went back in the room. She came out. He was getting worse progressively. I mean, maybe it's just because he's drinking brandy while he's sick. Yeah, and he's, again, self-medicating. He's a known self-medicator. Right. So they don't know what he's doing in there.

He could be just downing striccine. We don't know. So it was a pretty rapid and steady pace that he was declining after that until at 8 p.m. May 11, 1889, he was dead in his room. And again, he died in Liverpool, England. So after his death, Florence literally went into shock. Like, she was seen by a doctor and diagnosed as having suffered shock. So she didn't expect it.

One would think that that would make sense. And it was after he expired that things got really wild and really salacious very quickly. Now, the brothers, of course, they've already shown that they are immediately suspicious. They had a bad feeling about this from the moment they arrived. in the house they kind of already had in their head. Something was off. So they kind of just ran with that. And they ended up locking Florence in her room under house arrest while they searched

the house. Is that legal? She was a woman in Victoria in England. So because of this impromptu search of the house and the house arrest of Florence, the children's nurse produced something that they believed pointed to poisoning as a possible cause of his death. Mrs. Alice Yap, who was the children's nanny slash nurse, I guess, gave Michael some kind of package that she had found in Mrs. Maybrick's trunk. In the box that she found in the trunk, there was a bottle that was labeled arsenic poison.

And it said, four cats in handwriting on the bottle. I looked at this up. I don't know what that is about. Yeah. But again, back then, this shit was like, you use stuff for weird, purposes. So I don't think it was like two poison cats. No. Like I think it was like there was a reason for it. Yeah, like there was some kind of weird medicine for them or something. But there was also a piece of linen in the package and a

handkerchief. Okay. And Alice said that she discovered this package in the trunk when she had gone in there to get clothing to pack for the children after James's death. The trunk also contained labels for bottles and extra bottles, which that could be where she keeps that stuff. Right. Now, an autopsy was ordered by his brothers and revealed that they believed the cause of death could have been arsenic poisoning. Okay. But the arsenic was not in his stomach. Traces were found in his liver and kidneys. And at first you're like, oh, okay, like he's got arsenic in his system.

It was somewhere around 20 milligrams. And lethal arsenic is somewhere in these 300 milligram range. So that was like really nothing. So this was nothing. Like nothing. Not even. I think when they talked to a modern day doctor and chemist about this, he was like, it is trivial the amount that's in there.

Wow. Like that's how he described it. The fact that this was even suggested as arsenic poisoning here is wild. Like a hard stretch. There is no basis for this. Wow. Besides an overlap of symptoms, I guess, that are kind of symptoms for a lot of different things. Like symptoms of arsenic poisoning are vomiting, diarrhea.

psychosis, excessive salivation and the skin rash, any number of those things. James was dealing with anxiety symptoms frequently, like all the time. He had a lot of digestive issues. He had a loss of appetite. But again, these symptoms can be from a lot of different things. Yeah, exactly. To just immediately go with arsenic because there were traces in his liver and kidneys. And we're going to get to why that's even more insane to think of, because there could

easily be arsenic in a system. because he was ingesting arsenic on the regular. But to just go with that right off the bat is like, what are you guys doing? There's no basis for this. But the thing is, with Florence not allowing anyone to really help James, and then that whole bottle debacle, people started questioning what was happening. And like calling the doctor so late. Exactly.

So she was officially arrested May 14th, 1889 on suspicion of poisoning her husband. Man, oh man. Again, not a lot of basis for this. at all. It's not like she was caught red-handed. She wasn't, this is all very circumstantial, very like, I don't know, it seems like this could be it. But, you know, they're doing their due diligence, I suppose. It looked fishy to more than just Michael and Edward, the brothers. So the medical examiner was like, you know what? This death certificate isn't happening yet. We're not going to do that. He was like, let's pause on this. So this created the need for a coroner's inquest

to look further into this. This inquest began May 28, 1889, and was led by Mr. S. Brighthouse, who was the coroner for Southwest Landkashire. Florence could not appear as a witness at the inquest in person because she was in shock. Oh, man.

She was supposed to, but she was literally still dealing with, like, the after effects of shock. So she had to have her attorney, Mr. Pickford, represent her. The fact that this even went to inquest, I'm going to be honest with you, the fact that this was even looked at as a crime is really wild to me.

I'm like, this guy just died of something. Like, can we just look at what happened here? Right. And we're going to get into what, like the other things. His lifestyle, if you looked at it, you were like, well, this definitely could have happened. Yeah. Well, and for the time, he was getting older. He was.

He was getting up there. And he was doing some things that you would have looked at and been like, yeah, I think this was just an accident or it just caught up with him. Right. Now, it's interesting to note that she, Florence didn't show up in person until the final day of the inquest. And this had mixed results for her. A lot of people thought she was just so devastated that she couldn't be part of it. Which is helpful for her here, you know, because like that makes it look like, yeah, she's in shock.

She couldn't be here. But then there were those that thought it was convenient for her not to be made to answer for things publicly. Okay. And have like a representative do it. also there was a lot of speculation about whether this kind of allowance would have been given to someone of lesser social standing. I mean, probably not. Like, would someone not as wealthy and upstanding in society really been allowed to claim shock and then get out of publicly testifying at the inquest of their husband's suspicious poisoning death? Doubt it.

I'm going to go with them, though. So it didn't help her. Didn't totally like, it just, it was kind of a rough one. Like right in the middle. The media was not great here. Now, further, they further looked into the weeks leading up to James's death. And it showed that Florence had actually bought fly paper that contained arsenic. Okay.

A staff member found that she had soaked these papers in water to make an arsenic solution because the water extracts the arsenic from the paper. So much arsenic. So much arsenic. And they had discovered this solution, the staff member, had found this solution under a sink. in the home days before James's death. Now, hearing that, you're like, weird. Okay, well, how did she do that?

What was she extracting arsenic? That's weird. Florence testified, yeah, I did do that. I was making an arsenic face wash for myself. Oh, my God. Now, when I first saw that, I was like, no, Florence. Like, what are you doing? I was like, that's a bad excuse, but it's not.

I looked further into it. It's a thing. They were called arsenic complexion wafers, and they were sold starting in 1890 the year after this whole debacle. But before that, there were thoughts that arsenic flypapers, if you extracted the arsenic out of it, you could use them to lighten your skin, which was ideal at the time, and get rid of freckles, redness, blemishes. Like, damn. People used, they were selling arsenic face wash and arsenic laden everything. They thought this stuff. This was the shit.

So this is a very rational thing at the time. This was something that she did do. Her mother even later confirmed that, yes, she used to that. Right. That was what she used it for. So we have a backup here. And meanwhile, these women are all doing this thing and they were selling them to them saying, and you could see there's like old commercial like commercial things in newspapers that are like perfectly harmless.

Like bull. Meanwhile, this stuff would just poison them like slowly. Yeah. Over time. It would also create dark spots on their face, which was completely ironic considering that is what they were using it to fix. Right. But also, sometimes they would chew on these wafers that they would make. What?

And eat arsenic and then die. Yes, that's usually how that will go. And what's crazy is back then, a lot of times these deaths weren't labeled arsenic poisoning. It was just wild. Wow. They weren't even. And also, arsenic eating comes back. so remember that.

Arsenic eating. Yes, because there's something called an arsenic eater. Okay. Yeah, and we'll get to it, don't worry. All righty. Now, Michael, James's brother, was brought in to testify at the inquest, and he was brought in to testify about seeing Florence changing the labels on the bottle. Right.

He was asked if he did see her change liquid from one bottle to another. Because remember, he initially said, I saw her changing liquid from one bottle of the other and then changing the label. And her whole thing was that like something to the bottom. Yeah. And so he said, I did not see her change one or the other, but I saw her with the bottle produced in her hand. She was putting the label as if she was sticking it on. So now it's, we've walked it back a little bit. She's just label making, sir. She's an organized woman. Yeah. And it's like, so this was indicating that she was making her own concoctions and just labeling them whatever she pleased. Unfortunately, the newspapers in England, Scotland, and Ireland were all sensation. reporting that he had seen her put liquid from one bottle to the next.

This was untrue, but someone else may have seen that, so it wasn't entirely out of left field. Somebody does come forward and it's like, I saw her do it. Oh, okay. We'll get to that. But the idea is probably already in their head. Exactly. Now, next, we have Alice, the children's nurse. She comes back.

Alice, yeah. She was called. Yeah, I don't. Florence's staff were shady motherfuckers. They really, they want. for her. Do you think that they didn't like that she was maybe a Yankee? I think that had a lot to do with what's going on here. I think it was a big mixture of things going against her. But the children's nurse, Alice or Nanny, was called as a witness to testify at the

inquest. And again, although Michael had not seen Florence pour the liquids from one bottle to the next, Alice said she had. She testified that in the days before James's death, she had actually witnessed Florence pouring different liquids from one bottle to another. She didn't see the label thing, but she revealed that she had heard James and Florence argue a lot leading up to this and had heard a particularly interesting verbal argument between them about a month before his death. All right. During this altercation, which she said was in the children's room, the children weren't there, but they were just standing in there. She heard Florence yell, what a scandal. It will be all over the town tomorrow.

And then they left the room and Alice heard James say, Flory, Flory, I never thought it would come to this. If you once cross this threshold, you shall never enter the house again. I'd be like, you're cheating on me, asshole. Yeah. Now what could this fight have been about, you asked? Cheating. There have been several fights.

A lot of the members of the Maybrick staff in the household were also brought up on the stand during the inquest and they all had similar tales of fights and arguments between James and Florence, especially in the weeks leading up to this strange death. It was again Alice who really blew the lid off this question of what the fight could have been about. She said that in the days before James died, Florence had given her a letter to take to the post office, and she wanted her to mail it out. It was an envelope that was addressed to A. Briarly Esquire. She obviously wasn't going to open a sealed letter, but luckily for her, very convenient.

for her, children are a wreck, and one of the children conveniently dropped the letter into a mud puddle. Oh, no. So Alice was like, oh, no, I guess I should just open this and put it in a new envelope. Oh, God. Because luckily, the envelope was the only thing wet and dirty from the mud, and it didn't seep into the letter part at all. How convenient. Yeah. So she got a new envelope and was about to put the letter into it when, whoops, she just happened to see the words in the middle of the letter that said, my darling. Ah. She was immediately like, whoa, flow.

I'm going to tell on you. You were excited to say that I could tell. I was very excited. Whoa flow. So she handed that letter over to James's brother Edward, instead of mailing it like she had been instructed. Who do you work for? And why?

Yeah, why would you give it to his brother? You don't work for Edward? What are you doing? No. Like, that's shady. What are you doing with Edward? That's shady business. Yeah, you're going to get fired, girlie.

I was like, that's not cool. Like, women supporting women, what are you doing? Come on, Alice. That's the sad thing. It's not that often. It happens. I thought it was real. And also, it's like James is having all these affairs and you're going to sell Florence out.

Yeah, because men can do whatever the fuck they want. Like, Alice, I'm disappointed in you. I'm disappointed in Alice as well. Nobody should be having affairs, but it's like, come on, man. Like, James has been literally fathering children with other women. Can you give her a minute? Like, just let her say my darling to someone. Yeah, let her just live a little.

Now, I hope, again, like, I hope you would have paid her the same courtesy had you found a letter that James had written to some woman. She would not have. Not cool. So also, there are reports that came out a little bit. So this whole thing happened, obviously this A. Briarley, we're going to get to him. But that really, like, shook things up a little bit. And there were also these reports that were never confirmed, but they didn't help her out, that Florence and Edward, The brother could have had a little thing.

But wasn't he the one to say that he saw her flip and flopping the bottles? Yeah, that was Michael. Oh, the other brother. That was the other brother. Okay. But either way, it's like, I don't know. That was never proven, though. All of it is very scandalous.

None of this is helping her out because even though this does not make her a murderer in the jury's eyes right now. She's not looking trustworthy. Exactly. And at this time, you might as well be a murderer. People just loved a hot goss back then. Yeah. And again. Remember, James was having several affairs and fathering children with other women, so like hypocrisy.

Now, this letter was brought into the inquest as evidence, and it was read out loud in its entirety. When the whole letter was read, it was very clearly indicating that something romantic was happening between a Browley and Florence. All righty. It was printed in full in the Sheffield and Rotterdam paper on May 29, 1889. This is the letter. I'm going to read it to you. You tell me if they were doing the damn thing. Okay. Spoiler alert, they were. Yeah. Dearest. Right off the bat. Your letter undercover came to hand just after I had been to you on Monday. I did not expect to hear from you so soon and had delayed in giving the necessary instructions. Since my return, I have been nursing all day and night. He is sick unto death. She had italicized and unarmed. underlined those words. Yikes. The doctors held a consultation yesterday and now all depends on how his strength will hold out.

Both my brother-in-laws are here and we are terribly anxious. I cannot answer your letter fully today, my darling. There was the my darling. But I relieve your mind of all fear of discovery. M has been delirious since Sunday. And I know now that he is perfectly ignorant of everything, even to the name of the street and also that he has not been making any inquiries whatsoever. The tale he told me was a pure fabrication only intended to frighten the truth out of me. He, in fact, he believes my statement, although he will not admit it.

You need not, therefore, go abroad on this account, dearest. Out in any case, do not leave me until I see you once again. You must feel that those two letters of mine were written under circumstances which must ever excuse their injustice in your eyes. Do you suppose I should act as if I am doing, as if, do you suppose I should act as I am doing if I really thought and meant what I inferred then? Sorry, it's hard to read some of these. Yeah, yeah, old English. If you wish to write me about anything, do so now, as all the letters pass through my hands at present. Excuse this scrawl, my own darling, but I dare not leave the room for a moment.

And I don't know when I shall be able to write to you again. In haste, yours ever, Flory. So obviously they're having an affair. Yeah, for sure. I feel it's important to at least point out some of the things that likely made the jury quirk a brow. Yeah. These things are speculative, but unfortunately they probably work to really get the jury going here. Obviously, the clear affair.

She's a woman in Victorian England, so that's immediately going against her. Hard no. The italicized and underlined words, he is sick unto death, like she is saying, hey, it's working without saying it. It's the fact that he is sick unto death comes directly after her saying she is nervous. nursing him day and night. Then she says she cannot answer your letter fully today, but she wants to relieve him of worrying about James discovering their affair. She says she is relieving his mind of all fear of discovery.

This could be used to look like she is saying, hey, he's going to be dead, so don't worry. It does sound that way. Which may be what she was saying, but that doesn't mean she was killing him either. It could have been her being like, he's dying, so I don't think he's going to discover us. Yeah, yeah.

It could also be looking at. looked at as discovery of what? Discovery that you two have murdered him or plan to murder him? Well, probably the affair. Exactly. But it could easily. Salacious. And the jury did look at it as discovery of murder.

I'm sure they did. Not discovery of affair. People were also so fucking bored back. Yeah. She says, don't worry at all because he is perfectly ignorant to everything. That's quickly proven to not be true. Yep. when the staff starts testifying at the inquest,

then she goes further to say he's delirious, so it's cool. It's all kind of shady and cold sounding. Like, he's delirious, like, whatever. He's also going to die soon. Yeah, like, ugh. So, again, this could easily be all about the affair and have nothing to do with a poisoning or, or if you really look at it with different eyes,

if we're looking at it, like a jury in Victorian England would look at it, they're pulling and they're very much going like the defense is really or excuse me the prosecution is very much going with she's a murderess they're going to point to these things and be like look yeah that could mean that and you're like eh it could yeah but can you prove it beyond a reasonable doubt the answer is no so the staff also indicated that james was suspicious of this affair like he was not perfectly ignorant to it is that what they were fighting about and they think that might be what they were fighting about because he had actually confronted Florence about it. Uh-huh. That's what it sounded like in her letter. Exactly. But it was like he had made something up sort of. Well, she was like, he kind of like brought something else out to frighten me into telling, admitting it. But she told him a tale and he believed it. Okay, okay, okay. So they also later presented a letter that was found in Florence's dressing table drawer the day after James had died. Girl, you got to burn your letters. And it was a letter from A. B. Oh. Briarly. Yes, yes. And it basically was responding to the letter Florence wrote to him,

and it was confirming the affair, but nothing about James's death or potential death. Nothing was in there that you could be like, hmm. And actually, and we'll get to it, the judge in her trial was terrible. Oh, good. Gave his own thoughts on what, how disgusting she was for stepping outside of her marriage.

Nothing about him. He was fine. Such bullshit. And at one point, he brings up the letters and he was like, how she didn't burn those. Like, I don't, I will never know. Like, why does she have those? sinful letters in her possession.

It's like, oh, get fucked, my dude. So this was what everybody agreed, again, was probably the crux of the fight that Alice was talking about. It was after this particular fight that suddenly James began to get sick. That's also a coincidence, I guess, eventually leading up to his death. Now, during the inquest, Alice was then asked if she had ever seen or known James being sick before this argument. Like, was he a sickly man? Yeah.

And the answer is yes. Alice said he was in fine health before this. Not true. And his illness seemed to happen out of nowhere and just get worse and worse. That's not true. Like, he wasn't like a sickly man, but he had a lot of digestive issues. He had a lot of anxiety issues. And he was on so much medication.

Right. That they found upwards of, like, 20 plus prescriptions and bottles of medicines, like, in his room. How did he write his own prescription? Because back then it was totally different. He could like just get these things and self-medicate. Oh, okay. Now, Alice said that she was very worried about James and told Florence that since it was not getting better for at least two weeks that they should inform the doctors.

So Alice is like, I was the one. Yeah. It sounds like Alice had the hots for him. Yeah. I was like, are you okay, Alice? Like maybe that happened. Yeah. Florence wasn't trying to hear that apparently.

And she said that she had already told Dr. Humphreys, who was one of the family doctors of what was going on. didn't need to inform anyone else. She was like, it's all under control. And she had told her at the time that the doctor said it was something to do with James's liver and that it was his liver was quote, out of order, which is a hell of a way to describe a failing organ. Like, just put a sign on it. Just out of order. Sorry, out of order. Under construction. Be back soon. Florence said the doctor believed this liver issue was because of a suspected overdose of some kind of medication because he had been prescribed something else because he had several doctors. And he was prescribed something by a

London doctor that contained trace amounts of strychnine. Oh. And this Dr. Humphreys was like, kind of looks like that could be the issue as he overdid it. And it was an accident. That's what it sounds like for sure. The illness was obviously getting worse and worse. He was delirious at times and lucid at others. The staff said Florence was clearly starting to keep James isolated from them during those couple of weeks. And their claim was, well, it wasn't to keep us safe from illness. Like, it was just for her to be able to do her wicked things. How do you know?

Now, she insisted apparently on being the only one to bring him everything to eat, give him his medicine. But, like, she's his wife. And she's also, like, clearly in her letter worried that he's going to die soon. Yeah. I'm sure to a degree she pretty much loved him a little bit. Exactly. And it's like, yeah, maybe she was being, I don't know.

They said she was acting strange. They all believed she seemed guilty. She's probably stressed out. And maybe she was acting strange. I don't know. It's like, again, this is all, sure, it can be weird. Like, you can look at it and go, yeah, that's weird that you wouldn't let anyone else in there.

I can agree. Sure, that's, you could look at that as weird. Or you could look at it as just his wife. She's private. But also, that doesn't make her a murderer unless you can show me something. Unless you can show me that this guy died of arsenic poisoning. Show me that first. We haven't even gotten the building block of murder yet.

We don't even know what this fucker died of. The building block of murder. We don't even know if he was poisoned. Like you're not even, we're walking off of nothing here. Do we ever find out? That's the thing. They don't have a specific thing. They can never pinpoint.

So we worked off of nothing here and said he was poisoned. Right. That's not fair. It's wild. Now, another one of the nurses that, and this was one of James's specific nurses, Susan Wilson, she said she heard Florence and James talking right before he died. And she distinctly heard him say, and his nickname for her was Bunny.

Oh, Oh, Bunny, how could you do it? I did not think it of you. And Florence said, you silly old darling, don't bother your head about anything. Which was probably the affair. Which also, I don't know, that sounds like kind of a precious fight to me. Yeah. Oh, Bunny, I didn't think you could do it.

And it's like, oh, you silly old darling, don't worry about it. I'm like, that's adorable. I don't know what they're talking about, but like sounds pretty precious to me. And like, do you really think he was like, oh, Bunny, I didn't think you could poison me and didn't say it to anybody else. Like, hey, I think she might be poisoning me. Like, oh, bunny, I didn't think that you would pour arsenic down my throat. Gee whiz.

I never thought you'd do me so dirty. Like what? Yeah, exactly. It's wild. Yeah, like what? Also, I'm like, okay, like staff here. I'm like, you're just all like at the door just listening to that conversation. Was he good looking?

No. Oh, okay. Not, I mean, in Victorian England, like back then maybe he was. He was rich, so there's that. I'm like, it sounds like a lot of you have the hots for this one. I don't know. Now, Mrs. C. E. Samuelson, who was a friend of the Maybricks, was on the stand. She said she had been with them a bit over a month earlier on March 29th, and they all had dinner with a friend, Alfred, briefly.

Oh, A. Briefly. That's awkward. This was at the Palace Hotel in Southport. Apparently A. Briefly had been a business associate of James Maybricks. Oh, shit. The plot's like, it's okay, Grayson Frankie. And the Maybricks had gotten into a heated argument that he. evening. And it occurred after Florence insisted on escorting Mr. Briefly out to his car.

Yeah, that'll do it, Flo, Flo. Now, Mrs. Samuelson testified that Florence was very angry, clearly enraged at how James had spoken to her in front of everybody. And she had said to Mrs. Samuelson, I will give it to him hot and heavy for speaking to me like that in public. Ooh. Clearly he was suspicious of them. And Florence's claim that he was perfectly ignorant to the affair was a seemingly bullshit. Yeah, not so. He definitely knew. Now, interestingly, a slew of staff members from a hotel, not the palace hotel, but

another one, were brought into the inquest because they all testified that they had all booked a married couple named Mr. and Mrs. Maybrook in for many stays of the hotel at the end of March that year. This was when the Alfred briefly fight really ramped up. And they had come to stay several times. This seems strange to everyone because they were like, why would they stay in a hotel? They have a home. Right.

Like what? So they asked one of the employees on the stand, an Alfred Schweezel, which what a name. I love saying that name, Shwezel. Shwezel. They asked him, he was a waiter at the hotel, and they asked him to identify who Mr. and Mrs. Maybrook were. And he said, sure. And he said, Mrs. Maybrick. It was Lawrence Maybrick. And then he said, and Mr. Maybrick.

and he showed Alfred briefly as Mr. Maybrook. Apparently, according to the Maybrick mystery, which I will link in our show notes, it said, quote, a storm of hisses and groans from the spectators followed in court. Which, okay, everyone, did you do the same thing when you found out that he had a decades-long affair and fathered several children with other mistresses? Like, did you also groan in his? No, they probably turned a blind eye to that. Yeah.

And also, did you do that when you heard that? Oh, no, you didn't. that wasn't allowed to be shared in court. Oh. Okay. So shut up court. Uh-uh. Shut up court. Shut up court. So a few days later, the inquest continued on June 5th, 1889. We were approaching Gemini season. We sure are. And it's getting chaotic. It's getting real chaotic. This time they brought in a few doctors to talk about what was going on here. Dr. Richard Hopper, who was James's primary physician in London, was put on the stand. And he said in the past he had treated James for, like fairly minor in common ailments like what he called deranged digestion and nervous disorders.

I wish that my fucking, what a gastroenterologist would have said that I had a deranged digestive system. Also, deranged digestion is a great name, band name and I call it. Okay. Deranged digestion. We are deranged digestion. It's a little hard to say, but it's the payoff at the end. Yeah. Now, he said, again, he had a tough digestive system. He was always having issues. And he said he was actually the doctor to prescribe James in the past strychnine and nux vomica.

I don't ever want nux vomica anywhere near me. Yeah. He showed that the dose, and I guess that was stuff they would use for like stomach issues. And it's from like a tree like and stric nine would come from it. He showed that the dosage he was given would really not be enough. to cause any illness or the symptoms that James had suffered from in the weeks leading up to his death. But he said he believed that it was arsenic poisoning looking at the symptoms. Easy for you to say, since you're the one that prescribed him the strict nine and you don't want to be looked at as the one who gave him the poison.

But okay, I was going to say strict nine might have done a little something, something. I don't know about that. But he said, he said, he would say that the cause of death was arsenic poisoning, in his opinion. But it's important to note that there were many reports that James would double dose himself. intentionally, sometimes with the strict nine solutions. Wow. This man would have been a doozy to be married to.

Dr. Hopper might be right. The dose that he gave him would not be a lethal dose unless he's double-dosing himself at each time. I was going to say the dose he's giving himself might do it. Oh my God. This is like the origin of the man cold. Truly. Truly.

Truly. Now also, it was a fucking understatement to claim that James was prescribed a couple of meds for tummy troubles and anxiety. Yeah, you said there was like 20. The list of fucking poison and medications they found in that house prescribed to James Maybrick is astonishing. The man was literally a walking, breathing prescription. Yikes.

He is not an organic being anymore. He is a pharmacological creation. He's an RX. He is an RX. On this show, Murder, Mystery, and My Family on the BBC, it's really interesting. I love the BBC. They consulted a chemist who said on the list, of dozens and dozens of meds they found in this home, at least half of them contained lethal

components. Damn. So like, are we really pretending that he couldn't have done this in himself? Yeah. And if he's double-dosing himself with everything, too, like, if he's going to double-dose himself with one of these medications, he's going to do it with all or most of them. And he's mixing and like matching and all that. Like, you're not a doctor. Now, they asked Dr. Hopper, too, about the marriage, if he knew anything about the state of their marriage. And he said from what he had seen, they seemed to be fairly content. with each other. But he said things had changed that year in particular. And he said on March 13th that year, right before James got sick,

Florence went to him because she had a black eye. And she said when she went there for treatment for the black eye, she said she was planning to separate from James. So this was clearly from James. He said he saw a real, quote unquote, repugnance for her husband from her for quite some time after that. And he also had knowledge of that fight. had while dining with A briefly there.

They're going to testify that she had a repugnance to her husband after she was either punched or hit in the face so hard that her eye became black. Yeah. He was, it's now known that James Maybrick physically abused Florence. Yeah. And if you're going to like punch somebody in the face like that, it's probably not the first time you've done it. Literally punched her in the face to give her a black eye.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, other doctors were brought on the stand to also testify to the findings after James's death. And some of them agreed arsenic poisoning could have been. the likely cause, but others said they didn't think there was enough evidence to suggest that at all. So there was very conflicting things. Sounds like it. The final day of the inquest was the only day that Florence came in person, like I said, and the daily news on June 7th reported a truly

over-the-top account of Florence's appearance. It said, quote, her appearance evokes sudden and intense emotion. Was it possible that the lady, small and figure, neatly attired and deep mourning, her fair and well-rounded face, that is the lower half of it for its upper part, was hidden behind a thick veil, showing in pale relief against the somber hue of her attire, could really be the one the crime, could really be guilty of the crime laid to her charge? So they're like, she's so pretty. Could she really have done this? Did she do it?

It's like, she's so fucking pretty. Could she really have done that? And it's like, I don't know daily news. Like, Jesus. Yeah, they're like, and I don't think that has anything to do with that. Can we not just point to the fact that, like, she's. pretty. Like maybe they're like, wow, there's literally like zero physical evidence to show she did this. Because she really have done this. They're like, guys, she's pretty. There's really no,

not even just like physical evidence. There's no fucking circumstantial evidence, really. There's like a little with the letter and everything like that. And the only thing that they were doing was basically going on the, she's having an affair. So she's going to kill him so she can continue her affair. But it's like, bitch, she was having her affair. She wasn't worried about it. Well, no. So he was having many affairs. So was he going to kill her? Yeah. Everybody having an affair is just going to kill the other person. He's going to kill each other? So the jury deliberated for 30 minutes and then came forward and said that the jury, quote, unanimously believe the death resulted from an administration of an arrogant poison. And they believe it was intentionally administered by Florence Maybrick with the intention of murdering her husband.

Not a humble poison. No. An arrogant one. Not a humble one. No, no. Now it was going to go to trial because that was just the inquest. Oh, shit. We weren't even at trial.

Yeah. That was just the inquiries. Oh, the inquiry. The inquest. Now, the trial began on July 31st, 1889, at St. George's Hall in Liverpool. Florence was part of this trial in there in person, because she was like through the whole beginning of it. So it was a different vibe, even though they were presenting the same ideas over again. They believed the Maybrook Sparge was horrible and falling apart.

There was speculation that he had physically abused Florence. Florence was having an affair, and she had used the arsenic flypapers to poison him to get rid of him. That was the crux of everything. The trial was the place to be. It always was. It was packed with people just wanting to see Florence. Was it at the old Bailey? At the old Bailey.

No, it was at St. George's Hall. Now, she maintained her innocence throughout she always had. She never wavered on that. I did not do this. And said, if there was arsenic in his system, then it was because he had dosed himself, which he was known to do. Also, Florence claimed there was a lot of evidence

that wasn't allowed to be entered into the trial. Bake as fuck. For one, she claimed that James was an arsenic eater. I told you that was going to come back. And they wouldn't allow that to be used, which what? I said to myself as I read that. And I looked through this and arsenic eating is a thing. It was a thing.

So it began, when I looked into this, it began way before this case. And it was in a part of Lower Austria that it began. And a group of, it was like a group of peasant. in this area were called toxio it was toxicophagy and that meant that they ate arsenic. And the reason for this was to get a healthy complexion, which again, Victorian England, they started using that as face cream later. And it was used to help breathing issues when they were in the mountains or walking long distance. I don't think that'll do it.

I think just like drink some water in both cases. Yeah. But they would eat a piece of straight up arsenic that was no bigger than the size of a lentil a couple of times a week, and then they would slowly increase their doses over time. And the problem is, it was like any other addiction. When they were in the thick of it, they needed more. And if they didn't, they would suffer paralyzing withdrawal symptoms. Arsenic withdrawal would cause vomiting, digestive issues, spasmodic pain, loss of appetite, and anxiety symptoms.

So maybe the problem here is that he didn't have enough arsenic in his system. Thank you. Does it sound familiar? I would say interesting at the very least. If he was an arsenic eater, then like you said, maybe he was suffering from withdrawal. He even used to brag to his friends about being an arsenic eater because he thought it was a genius way to administer arsenic to himself. Okay. And they wouldn't let this into the trial. That he was an arsenic eater. And his friends would have said so. Yeah. And you're claiming that he died of arsenic poisoning with no medical basis for this, by the

Right. And you're claiming that and then not allowing the fact that he self-administered large doses of arsenic to himself on the reg. You can't be doing that. So it's just wild. So he was also self-prescribing other medications that were strychnine-based, arsenic-based, belladonna-based. At the time of his illness, Flores said he had he had, she knew he had administered a double dose of strict-9-based medicine to himself. Now, there were also reports that James had changed his will recently. to leave Florence basically nothing. So why the fuck would she kill him? Exactly. She'd be like, I'm going to stick around and get a little bit more out of that. Yeah.

So this wouldn't be a motive. No, for her. Because she didn't really get anything. Right. And honestly, it seems like at this point, the papers were kind of, like the media was kind of shifting in Florence's favor towards the end. And the evidence was so fucking shaky, like for her being a perpetrator here, that it wasn't really a slam-dunk case for the prosecutor.

It doesn't sound like it. But then the judge. Sir James Fitz James Stephen. And he's the same one as before in the inquest. He summed up the case for two entire days. Jesus Christ. He sounds like, and I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but remember when I covered the Dominic Dunn case?

Yes. Or excuse me, Dominique Dunn. Yep. And that fucking judge. Yeah. He sounds just like that. This guy did his summation for two fucking days. No, that's ridiculous.

The trial itself was seven days. Go home, Roger. This was two days. He didn't allow the jury to deliberate until he had summed up the case for two fucking days. Like, we've heard the case, sir. It should be noted, too, that it was highly believed that this particular judge should never have been on the stand at this time. Wow. Because he had suffered a neurological event in the recent past, and he had not fully recovered.

So then he definitely shouldn't have been there. No, his mind was not what it was, but laws back then in Britain made it impossible to remove him from the position. So in his summation, he went on and on and on about her affair. He ruthlessly shared his disgust with her because of this. He in no way should have been allowed to hammer in that fact that she had a fair to the jury like this. No. Modern judges have looked this over and said it was extremely prejudicial, far too packed with his own opinions and Victorian morality judgments.

They were like, you never would have been able to do this now. He literally said at one point to the jury, quote, you must consider a horrible and dreadful thought that a woman should be plotting the death of her husband in order that she might be left at liberty to follow her own degrading vices. Jesus. So he literally says, by the way, jury, I want to make sure that you think about the fact that she probably poisoned her husband so she could keep fucking this other guy. I want, please think of that while you're trying to see if she's guilty. It's like, why did you say that? You can't do that, sir.

But then August 7th, 1889, after only 48 minutes deliberation, or 38 minutes, excuse me, she was found guilty. Oh, no. It was after her guilty verdict that the papers suddenly changed their tunes once again and were like, of course she's guilty. We all knew it. Yeah, they wanted to know what would sell. Fucking frauds. So Florence was shocked. Shocked. She never saw this verdict coming.

She addressed the court directly after her. and she said, quote, my lord, evidence has been kept back from the jury, which if it had been known, would have altered their verdict. I am not guilty of this offense. She later claimed it was all gossip by her staff who were disgruntled and just sold her down the river. What a bunch of dicks. She was then sentenced to hang by her neck until she was dead. And that's the rough way. Yep.

Right? And it's like she was sentenced to death for this. Oh, and in case you were satisfied that the course, that of course the jury wasn't actually. tainted. You were like, this is just Victorian England. Like they weren't, they couldn't have been more tainted than that. Oh, no, of course not. I can fix that for you. Please do. If you're feeling that way. The foreman, whose name was Fletcher Rogers, was actually in business with James Maybrick at one point. How is that allowed? And literally bought their home and lived in this home after the trial. So that's why he convicted her. He said, I want your house. He literally lived in the home until he died.

Wow. Right after the trial. And like did it feel guilty about it? He was like, she died so I could live here. Wow. Yep. James and Florence's two children were taken in by relatives during the entire inquest and trial. She was never permitted to see them again.

Oh, God, that is absolutely gut-wrenching. And in his will, James put like small provisions for Florence, like very small things. He left her like no money. And he left everything to his children, which you're like, okay. But when he died, his darling brothers sold everything in the house and literally left his children almost completely homeless and penniless. What the fuck? They took everything. What a bunch of dicks.

Luckily, the two kids were taken in by Dr. Charles Fuller and his wife, who was one of his doctors, like a good guy. And like, brothers didn't give a shit. The brothers didn't even take the children. And honestly, why didn't anyone look at the brothers as having a motive for killing their brother? Especially after they did that. Yeah, they sold all the shit. Also, Florence apparently petitioned authorities from prison to make sure her children stayed in the care of the Fullers. Yeah. Because she believed they were kind and loving guardians. And she was being told, like, updated about the kids. And she was like, they are thriving. They're thriving. They're thriving. They're happy. Can you imagine your sentence to death? Yeah. And then you have to figure out, like, where your kids are. Yeah. And she was correct. All this was true. They were thriving. And instead, they were there for a few years. But then they moved them to live.

with Michael Maybrick, one of the brothers. No, thank you. Even though she was like, they are thriving there. And these people want to keep them. Why did that happen? Do you know? No idea. I wonder if maybe the doctor just like couldn't keep up with the kids anymore or something. They wanted to keep them. Oh, they did want to. So something, it must have

just been because this was like family. Or maybe Charles like made a stink of it. Yeah, I don't know. Now, in 1911, this is even, this is like a sad coincidence. Oh, no. In 1911, James Maybrook Jr., when he was 29, years old. He died by accidental cyanide poisoning.

Oh, wow. Now, he was working in a gold mine and it was in the United States, actually, and he reached for what he thought was a glass of water and it was fucking cyanide solution. Holy shit. And he drank cyanide solution. And it was completely a tragic accident. Yeah. How... How... Haunted is that. I couldn't believe that when I read it. Now, Florence, after the trial, was taken to Woking's district female convict prison. She got a private cell, which she paid $1.25 a week for. Got to rent your room in prison.

Yeah. And it afforded her, quote, the additional comfort of a table, an armchair, and a washstand. She appeared, she was only there for a little while, and she, like, tried appeals, petitions. She tried to change the outcome. Nothing worked. In 1896, Florence was transported. referred to Aylesbury prison. Her supporters were many.

People were very much on her side. They were like, this is nuts. People believed she had not received a fair trial. And after appeals to the Queen and support from many high-ranking American government officials, as well as a bunch of civilians, the home secretary, Henry Matthews, yes, the very same who butted heads with Sir Charles Warren

and almost was forced to resign during the Ripper murders. Oh, shit. He ended up coming forward and commuting her sentence to life in prison. Oh, wow. Because he said the case against Florence, quote, does not wholly exclude a reasonable doubt whether his death was in fact caused by administration of arsenic. So it was changed to attempted murder, which doesn't make sense at all, but whatever. No.

Life for women at the time was 20 years. But she was there for a literal over 14 years before they finally allowed her to be released on good behavior. July 25th, 1904. Was she able to see her kids again? No. Why? She was never able to reconnect with them. They just like, they took them away and like, yeah.

They just, she was never, and at that time, it's like not like she could just look them up on the internet. No, of course not. But I wasn't saying that. Like, I just mean like there was literally no way to find them. No resources. Like she couldn't find them and they never connected her with them, you know? Oh, how sad is that? I know.

That like broke my heart. Everything. Yeah. Now, in 1905, there was like a pseudo-autobiography released about her trials and innocence. It's called Mrs. Maybrook's own story. What do you mean pseudo? It's kind of just like, because it's not like an autobiography from like, you know, birth to now. You know, like it's just kind of like talking about the trial and everything.

And it revisits the trial, how evidence of James's reliance and abuse of medication and chemicals was not allowed as part of the trial. And it continues to present the idea that James died because of his own overdue. and not because of her murder's hand. She spent years lecturing about her innocence, like going on the lecture circuit, and she lectured about prison reform at any institution that would have her. She ended up moving back to the United States, where she was originally from in 1908, and she went on like a literal lecture tour in the U.S. She was literally known as a prison reformer.

She lectured about sanitation issues in prison. She talked about the dangers of solitary confinement. And after spending a while lecturing and spreading information about prison reform, she had to make some money. She wanted to like settle a little bit. So she ended up living in Connecticut and becoming a housemaid there for a family friend. She was even able to build a small home on like a little bit under an acre of land in South Kent. She went by Florence Chandler, her maiden name. Never spoke to anyone in that town about who she really was or her past.

Don't blame her. And she was beloved there. like so much so that in the 1920 she loaned a dress to someone and this person saw that there was an old dry cleaning tag in the pocket of it that said Florence Maybrick on it. They asked a librarian friend about the name because they were like, wait a second, they revealed everything. They were like, yeah, this is what this whole thing is about. This friend loved her so much that they told their family. And the family was like, we're never going to reveal who she is. Like, let's never speak about this again.

So they did not reveal who she was until she had died. Wow. That's how much people believe that she was innocent. They were like, we're not going to, like, fuck with her. Like, she, like, we're going to keep her secret. Now, people also took care of her. She was a recluse for some years and was scared people would figure out who she was and, like, judge her. But no, boys from the local school in South Kent would bring her firewood during the winter.

Neighbors helped her when she was sick. They would bring her food. Like, she had a community of people that really cared about. her. I'm so happy that she got out because I don't think she did it. No, I don't either. And in 1927, she did make what they said was like a secret trip to England. And she gave one final interview where she did talk about A briefly. Okay. And she said she was sure that he would wait for her and they would be together, but he didn't. What a dick. And she said she was quote, bitterly disappointed that the man for whom I had sacrificed everything had forgotten me. And then she

said, quote, I was foolish enough to think I could find happiness with the man who offered me the love my husband denied me. Oh, isn't that so sad? She died in her home in October of 1941. She was like in her 70s. Wow. It's so crazy when you talk about like, we're like 1890 and then it's like 1940. That's like thousands of years apart. It feels so far. No, it's not. It's really not. Wow. And here's the thing. I again, believe this wasn't even a crime. No, I don't think it was an accidental overdose because he was careless with his health and the poisons. He was injecting, consuming, ingesting. Yeah.

I think this is a tragic overdose that got turned into murder because she was seen as, you know, the worst thing ever to Victorian era England. I think they had a shitty marriage. I think it had turned sour. I think they were on his side. The servants were clearly on his side. I think that they both were having extramarital affairs. they should have just not been together, but that wasn't an option back then. And I think, I think, again, she was put on trial and convicted for adultery, not for murder.

Yeah, she got a scarlet letter out of the deal. I think that's what it is. Thank goodness, though, that her sentence was able to be commuted because- Thank goodness. Imagine if she hanged for this. I really thought you were going to tell me she did. Thank goodness she didn't, because I really don't believe she did it. I'm curious to see if anyone believe she did.

I can't find any evidence that points to me beyond a reasonable doubt. that she was... Honestly, I can't find any evidence that he was poisoned to be quite honest. No, it doesn't even sound like there was enough at all. Yeah.

And if you watch, if you try to find murder mystery in my family, it's a BBC show, they do a really interesting episode on this, and it has Dave Maybrick on it, who is a descendant

of Florence and James. Oh, how interesting. And that's what that, that show is like, they bring a family member from like, and they always do like really old cases.

So it's like a descendant. But a lot of times they try to figure, out if there was a miscarriage of justice involved. And they try to prove it to kind of clear that person's name or to say, yeah, it was like a just conviction. And they have two like modern day barristers go through all the evidence and then they present it to a modern day judge. And he makes a judgment call. And in this case, they don't believe that she was convicted rightfully. Wow. Even the modern day one said this is a very unsafe conviction. This wouldn't pass now. I don't think it would. So

And like his Dave Maybrook was like, I went in here thinking that it was like not a great conviction. I didn't think she did it. But he was like, I have never been more convinced in my life. Yeah. Because they talk to a ton of people. I'll link it in the show notes because it's really interesting to watch. But that is the story of Florence Maybrick. And then we're going to talk about James and the fact that like you don't think so, but people think he may have been Jack the Ripper.

Yeah, there's still theorists that believes he could have been Jack the Ripper. he's not like spoiler alert but it's a very interesting story that leads to him being brought into that fold wow and then what i think i'm going to do in part two too is we're going to talk about that we'll talk about him as you know the jack the ripper theory i also want to get into what tobias's theory was for who jack the ripper is just our pal to bias tobias tobias foges theory for who he thought was jack the ripper because i started looking into it and i knew i knew i knew that that name and I knew it had come up during we had talked about that person Charles Cross. And when he said it, I was like, huh, like, I never really looked into that person enough,

but like, sure. And then I started looking into it and I was like, well, shit. I was like, all right, that's not a bad theory. That just reminded me and it has nothing to do with anything whatsoever. I love when that happens. Why I'm here. I want to do that game with you where like you say a word and you have to like get to the same word. Because we both just said, like, I feel like we say the same thing a lot. We do. So let's try. that. We will try that. Okay. Wow. That was, that was a fun detour. I told you. I love it. I told you out for it. You did. But yeah, that's what that's what part two will be. We'll talk about James Maybrick, talk about his connection to Jack the Ripper, and we'll talk about Tobias Forges theory,

because let's see if we land on a similar one. Perfect. That sounds good to me. That's all hitting you on the next episode of Morbid. We hope that you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But that's a word that I ever in the program. like that again. No, it's program now. I love you. Bye.

It's a program. It's a program. This is my program. I'm watching my programs.