Morbid - Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

From the moment he was born, Grady Stiles entertained audiences around the United States as the sideshow performer “Lobster Boy.” But behind the scenes, Stiles’ life was one of turmoil, alcoholism, and even murder. That all came to an end one night in the fall of 1992, when a killer entered Stiles’ Florida home and shot him to death. In the days that followed Grady Stiles murder, investigators quickly unraveled a conspiracy plot to kill Stiles, which had been set in motion by his wife, Mary Theresa, and his stepson, who’d hired a teenage carnival worker to commit the murder. After a lifetime in the spotlight because of his physical deformity, it was Grady Stiles’ death that brought him the ultimate fame, but what had he done to earn such a brutal end?Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!ReferencesAllen, William. 1978. "Her dad faces trial in fiance's slaying." Pittsburgh Press, October 6: 4.Associated Press. 1994. "Defense: Abuse led wife to hire husband's killer." Miami Herald, July 13: 24.Florida Department of Corrections. 2014. Corrections Offender Network. March 5. Accessed April 30, 2025. https://pubapps.fdc.myflorida.com/OffenderSearch/detail.aspx?Page=Detail&DCNumber=532246&TypeSearch=IR.Ireton, Gabriel. 1979. "'Lobster Man' guilt in kin's fiance death." Pitsburgh Post-Gazette, February 23: 3.Jackson, Orval. 1994. "Judge rules self-defense must include admission." Tampa Tribune, July 15: 20.—. 1994. "Wife of 'Lobster Boy' guilty." Tampa Tribune, July 28: 1.Lester, John. 1992. "Legless carny slain at his house." Tampa Tribune, December 1: 7.Maryniak, Paul. 1979. "Deformed slayer gets probation." Pittsburgh Press, April 30: 1.—. 1979. "Performer's slay trial goes to jury." Pittsburgh Press, February 22: 2.Pittsburgh Post-Gazette . 1978. "Legless man charged in slaying." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, September 28: 7.Rosen, Fred. 1995. Lobster Boy: The Bizarre Life and Brutal Death of Grady Stiles Jr. New York, NY: Pinnacle.Stay in the know - wondery.fm/morbid-wondery.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, weirdos. Before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid Network Podcast. Lamont Jones is shattered when his cousin dies just weeks after entering prison. The Hey, Weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Alaina. And this is Morbid. This is Morbid. And we're not going to get right into it, but I just want to say we're talking about a case today that is rough. Oh, so we should do some video banter at the beginning? Yeah, we should prep everybody.

Okay. At a time. Well, let's see. We all in this office have brand new tattoos. We do. We went to Black Veil and Salem. Yeah, of course. Saw Matt and Ryan, our besties.

If you ever need a tattoo, you need to go to Black Veil and Salem, of course. So Matt and Ryan are besties. If you ever need a tattoo, you need to go to Black Veil. You do. You just have to. For many reasons. For the company, for the aesthetic, the ambiance, the tattoos. The vibes. The Vibes.

You gotta do it all. Yeah, it's true. Do it. So that was delightful. That was super fun. It was a nice little like treat yourself day. Yeah do it all. Yeah. It's true. Do it. So that was delightful. That was super fun. It was a nice little like treat yourself day. Yeah, it was.

What else is going on? I'm trying to think. What's the news? What's the hot goss? What's the 411? The 411 is that I... Oh! What?

Mikey just reminded me. What? Conclave. Oh, Conclave. Conclave watch. Came to a crashing halt very quickly. Oh, Conclave. Conclave watch. It came to a crashing halt very quickly. Yeah, it started just as quick as it ended.

Yeah, I was watching live though. You were. So I had it up on my computer because I was ready. She screamed, oh, new post. I said, oh, it's happening. I said, oh. As soon as that white smoke came out, I said, oh my God. We got an American.

It's happening. We got a, which I'm shocked. That's the first time ever, right? First time ever. And like, especially right now, I'm like, wow, shocking that we managed to pull that off. And we can say Pope Lear. Pope Lear. He seems pretty cool. As far as popes go. Yeah, I think he's like, progressive and shit. Yeah, very outspoken. He picked a cool name.

We've had a lot of Francis's, we've had a lot of John Paul's and all that shenanigans. So you know, it's nice to see a Leo in there. John said he's, because John looked him up because I've been obsessing over conclaves. So he was like, I should probably know this. He looked him up and apparently he's from Villanova, which meant nothing to me until John said that a lot of the Knicks players are from Villanova. And so he was like, uh-oh, Villanova is having a moment.

And I said, you get Pope or you get finals. You do not get both. No, you fucking don't. So Knicks, listen to me right now. You chose Pope. So, you got Pope. You don't get the NBA finals. So, honestly, I think that's a good thing. John thought it was Villanova having a moment and that's bad. I say you get Pope or you get finals. Yeah, that's what I feel. And I think the Celtics, we just have to hope and pray that

they're going to make history for another year. Yeah. This is all on purpose. It's not at all, but I know. I just became a fan, so let me have this. I'm sitting here in my brand new Celtic sweatshirt. You are, we really hooked her. Because you know what?

I'm a fan no matter how it's going. It's true. As you should be. But I hope it upticks. I also hope that. We are on the precipice of game three. We'll let you know, guys. I know.

But of course, happy Mother's Day, everybody. Mother's Day weekend, we have to go do stuff. There's a Celtics game. I'm like, gosh darn it. I'm going to be like that sports bra at the table with my phone. Watching it on your phone. I know.

But yeah, so that's cool that, I mean, Pope Watch 2025 ended as quickly as it began, but... Yeah. It was still fun. Watching them close the doors on the Sistine Chapel, I was like, this is so metal. It is. They're sealing them in there and they're all sitting down. It looked very like cinematic.

We need more traditions. We don't have any like cool traditions. Yeah. Well, and I'm, you know, I don't, again, like the Pope really doesn't affect my day-to-day life in any way, shape or form. But like, I was interested because it is nice to see a more progressive mouthpiece for Jesus talking. I think that's important because we don't need somebody spewing hate and bullshit. Mm-hmm. Um, to people who will take what he says very seriously because he is seen as the word of

the Lord. He's young though. He's 69. So this one might be hanging around for a while. Okay. So we might, we might have a Leo dynasty happening. Jesus's word will be pretty, pretty lit for the next 20 years. Let's hope so.

You know, that's, that's an interesting, interesting little update. Yeah. I thought we were going to have Conclave Watch for a little while. I thought I was going to get to talk about it for a little longer. But I did find out there was a weird conclave that happened a while ago that took like three years though. And I think they ended up taking the bill, like the roof off the building that they were in and everything.

It was a long time ago. Wait, why did they take the roof off the building? they were in and everything. It was a long time ago. Wait, why they take the roof off the building? To force them to make a decision. They also rationed their food to bread and water, like stopped feeding them actual food. That's dark. Well, they were like three years, pick a pope. Oh, yeah. Let's do this. So maybe we'll cover that because that seems like a very interesting little.

I know you brought that up the other day. Foray. That sounds interesting. It's a weird one. Yeah. But yeah, that was that was an interesting update that happened yesterday. Yeah, I think that's like all the news Celtics Pope tattoos. Yeah. Other than that, we're going to get into a really shitty person.

Okay. Now, I think we we have briefly touched upon this man, I believe, in a crime countdown. Okay. Because when I was reading about him, I was like, why do I know this? And then I was like, oh. That's always the worst feeling because then you're like, have I done this? And I'm like, we didn't cover this in full. But yeah, it's the life and death of lobster boy, Grady Stiles. All right.

Grady Stiles Jr. It's not ringing a bell in my crime countdown part of my brain. This is one of those things that he... So obviously the life and death, he dies. He's murdered. Murder is never okay. But you are going to hear me say he's a shit bag of a human being. Oh, is this like a Ken McElroy deal?

He's an abusive, awful person to his daughters and to his wife. So obviously no one deserves to be killed. But I'm saying like, you're going to hear me talk some shit about him because he deserves it. Yeah, I'm not being real no matter what. Yeah, I'm just going to let you know some shit about him because he deserves it. Yeah. I mean, I'd be real no matter what. Yeah, I'm just going to, I'm just going to let you know. So who is Grady Stiles? Tell me. Grady Franklin Stiles, Jr. Not Franklin. Not my oldest.

I know. Was born June 26th, 1937. What does that make him? So I think at that point, he's a cancer. He's a cancer. OK. I don't know a lot about cancer men. I do. He fits. Oh yeah. Yeah, he fits.

The third child of Edna and Grady Stiles Sr. Grady Stiles Sr. was a carnival worker and performer. He was billed as one of life's human oddities. Oh, that's terrible to say. There's a lot of this kind of like... Carnivals were wily. Talk of quote unquote freaks and such. Grady senior was born with electro-dactyly, which is a physical deformity where one or

more fingers on the hands or toes on the feet are missing. Oh, okay. This condition though gave Grady Sr. and it often gives people who are dealing with it, the appearance of having claw-like hands. Okay. So kind of like those of a lobster. This led to his being billed on the sideshow circuit

as the Lobster Man. Now, despite being a very rare condition, it affects actually roughly one in every 100,000 babies born. Wow. Electrodactyly ran in the Stiles family as far back as the 1840s. That's crazy.

In some cases, it'll occur in both the hands and feet, but in Grady Stiles' case, it only occurred in his hands, the senior. So when the couple's third child, Grady Jr. was born, no one was really surprised to discover that this child had inherited the condition, which was present in Grady Stiles Jr.'s hands and feet. Oh, okay. Now, according to author Fred Rosen, the Stiles family had always not really listened to the advice of doctors who warned against having children

because of the likelihood of them inheriting this condition. Because especially when it's of the hands and feet, it leads to a very difficult life, you know? Yeah, right. And according to Rosen, their attitude was, quote, hell, if a child was born a freak, it was the child's problem, the child's and God's. Oh, okay. That's one way to look at it. Which is like, damn. What an outlook.

That's your problem, little baby. Yeah, a child that didn't ask to be brought into this world. Like that's fucked up in a way I can't describe. Yeah. In fact, Grady Jr's sister, Sarah, had also inherited their father's condition, but it only affected one arm and one leg. Years into her adulthood, actually, Sarah had her non-functional leg amputated, inherited their father's condition, but it only affected one arm and one leg. Years into her adulthood, actually, Sarah had her non-functional leg amputated and replaced

with an artificial limb. Unlike his sister, Grady's affliction was far worse than even their father's and prevented him from being able to walk. He had to rely on a wheelchair for mobility. Now at the time of his birth, the Stiles family was living in relative poverty in Pittsburgh's North Side. They were barely getting by on the wages they were getting from the carnival circuit. And for Grady, early life was a challenge to say the very least.

Again, you feel really bad for young Grady. Yeah, he was given a lot to deal with. A lot to deal with right out the gate. With his father constantly on the road with the sideshow, there was no a lot to deal with. A lot to deal with right out the gate. With his father constantly on the road with the sideshow, there was no one around to normalize his condition really, which was a problem. And so he was treated as a spectacle whenever his mother took him out of the apartment,

which is, that must be very difficult. Fortunately, just a few years after he was born, they did relocate to Gibsonton, which is a small town in central Florida. And this is very interesting. In the decades that had proceeded them moving there, this had become a popular place to move for retired circus workers. And those who were seeking refuge during the off season of the circus and the carnival.

So due to the large number of performers in town, they had also, the local administration had also established very like unusual zoning laws. And this allowed the residents to keep elephants, tigers and other large exotic animals on their property, which would solve the problems also of boarding the circus animals. But for young Grady, this kind of solved the problem of him feeling like an outcast. Because now he's hanging out with a bunch of circus workers and sideshow workers and the kids of sideshow workers

and a bunch of exotic animals. He fits in. He's not weird, he's just one of them. But it didn't do anything to solve their financial issues. As a result, the Stiles children were all expected to just kind of forego traditional schooling and just pitch in at the circus to help support the family. As the only able bought fully able bodied child's Margaret, the oldest worked the ticket booth until she actually ended up passing away from a brain aneurysm in 1951 at the age of 18. Oh wow.

This family had so much to deal with. For Grady Jr. his, he was just going to live a life of performing. That was what he was going to do. Just as his father had. From one small town to another, the family spent the majority of their lives traveling with the carnival and they were billed as the lobster family. Oh. Yeah. Throughout the first half of the 20th century,

circuses like Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey were so popular around the country, particularly during the depression and war years. You know, when a family could expect a day's worth of entertainment for a very small fee and just to take them away from all the reality that was going on. Exactly, reality.

For the carnival workers and performers, the pay might not have been great, but it was consistent. And the work offered, you know, a stable and supportive environment that a lot of them had not experienced outside of the circus. They kind of treated like shit. In fact, Fred Rosen said, in those days, the carnival was indeed a family. In those days, people joined up for the duration. They stayed with the same carnival through thick and thin. They were there for each other, the fat man, the bearded lady, the rustabouts

and the strippers. It's like American Horror Story freak show, how they become like a family. In the present, it would obviously be very illegal for parents to just take their kids out of school and be like, you're working at the circus. For good reason. But under the circumstances and given his experiences in a quote unquote ordinary community, Grady Jr. was honestly happier with the sideshow than he had been just in Pittsburgh. Well, that's good. Not only was his family being able to just be together

all the time, but he also loved performing. And he liked being in the spotlight. He was okay with it. Seemed to feed him. Like he really liked it. And when they weren't on the road, they retired to Gibsonton and there he was treated as just any other child in town. So he wasn't dealing with that bullshit, you know?

And he was able to live a relatively normal childhood among other children of circus workers. Yes, like they're normal. I was gonna say a different kind of normal. What they saw is that. Despite the acceptance he found in Gibsonton and his ability to help the family by working at the sideshow circuit,

Grady Stiles' life was definitely one of hardship. It's not like he was just coasting through. He had a lot to deal with. And it wasn't long before this kind of hardship that was just kind of hardwired inside of him was leading to a lot of bitterness. Because again, it's not like he was treated nicely by everyone he came in contact with.

You know what I mean? Like he- It was people who understood his struggles. Yeah, and some people, I'm sure the people that came to the circus sometimes would probably dehumanize him. And like that, I'm sure that's gonna live in your nervous system at some point. Yeah, definitely.

So he was often frustrated, often bitter. But he was very determined to prove himself to be as capable as anybody else. Yeah. So one thing he could do, which he did like he very much fixated on, was building up his strength in his early teens. And he developed incredible upper body strength.

Really? Yeah. And that he used this kind of to compensate for his lack of dexterity, lack of being able to really move around like he felt everybody else could. At the same time, he adapted to his condition really well and had learned to use his hands in like a claw like fashion.

So he could hold objects, he could write, he could do other like very complex tasks with his hands. Which when you look at it, you're like, wow, at this point, you're like good for you, man. Like you really like took lemons and you made lemonade out of the white. Good for you. Now by the early 1950s, Grady senior, his father had decided it was going to be much more lucrative for the family to go into business for themselves. And they struck out on their own. Now around this time, 17 year old Grady junior married his first wife, Deborah Brady. That was in a small ceremony in Tampa, Florida. Now, unfortunately that was only gonna last about a year before they divorced.

And Grady ended up just really focusing on the business for a little while. He's a horrible husband. Oh, just to put that out there. Lasted a year. I'm not surprised by that. I don't know how you- Based on what we find out later. Marriage to him was not surprised by that. I don't know. Based on what we find out later. Marriage to him was not a fun time.

Now Grady didn't have to wait long to find love again though. In the spring of 1959, during a stop in Trenton, New Jersey, Grady met Mary Teresa Herzog, who went by Teresa. One of the carnival's newest ticket booth workers and instantly they were in love. Now by the time she'd met Grady Stiles, 21 year old Teresa's experiences with men had been universally bad. So when she was, this is awful, when she was six years old, Teresa's mother divorced Teresa's father and remarried a monster named Frank Tyler, who would go on to sexually abuse her

for years. Oh, that's terrible. Frank Tyler, piece of shit. Yeah. Given the terrible conditions of her home life, Teresa would like lose herself in carnivals. You know, it was just like one of those things like- Escaping reality. Yeah, it really was.

It reminded me of like a movie we just watched for Scream, where the devil roams. One of the characters in that talks about how his father was abusive when he was younger and he would escape to the circus just to get out of that reality. Right. Which is just so sad. Yeah, it is sad.

Teresa, so she found refuge in these carnivals and circuses that would travel and they would come to her small Vermont town in the spring and summer months. She later said, the carnival fascinated me. I guess it fascinated most young people. I thought the lights and the excitement were just great. Now in a bid to get closer to the carnival and really like just envelop herself in it, she began working as a ticket taker during the summer.

Then when she turned 18, she joined up with the circus on a full-time basis and finally got away from her stepfather for good. Good, fuck that guy. Yeah, before long she met and fell in love with one for good. Good, fuck that guy. Yeah. Before long, she met and fell in love with one of the rustabouts, Jerry Plummer. Not Grady Stiles.

Not Grady. And soon they were married. ["The Little Mermaid"] This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you listen to this show, you know that men's mental health throughout history has been a little stigmatized, not been prioritized. It is okay to struggle. Real strength, though, comes from opening up about what you're carrying and doing something about it so that you can be at your best for yourself and everybody

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access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash morbid. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. Every day I make countless decisions. But one of the easiest and the most important is securing my home with SimpliSafe. The moment I arm my system, I know my family and everything I've worked for are protected. Whether I'm stepping out for the day or settling in for the night, that small action delivers something priceless. Peace of mind.

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Visit simplisafe.com slash morbid to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simply safe.com slash morbid. There's no safe like simply safe. Now, while things started out fine in the relationship, Teresa soon found herself in a relationship with yet another abusive man. For more than a year, she suffered verbal, physical, and emotional abuse at her piece of shit husband's hands. She was beaten with his fists. She was pushed down the stairs while she was pregnant with their child. And at one point he even threw a pot of scalding

coffee at her. What a fucking monster. And finally, he just, cause you know, he was a piece of shit in every way. He just grew tired of the relationship and he didn't really want to be a father. So Jerry Plummer took off leaving Teresa to raise their daughter Deborah on her own. Probably much better off. And she was earning very little money at the circus. So obviously it was hard, but to her credit, she was very resourceful, very determined. So she found a lawyer and scraped it together enough money to file for divorce and Jerry

didn't contest it. When Grady first saw Teresa in the ticket booth, he was immediately struck by her beauty, her charm. He just was into it. The problem was at the time, Grady and his father were a top draw for the circus. And there's like a hierarchy. And he would have been looked down upon for dating one of the ticket takers. Because that's like the job at the bottom of the hierarchy. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, that is interesting.

So he wasn't going to move on though. He was like, I'm not moving on and finding somebody else. Like I like this girl. So he began talking Teresa up to one of the owners, Stan Wright, encouraging him to consider her for a job as a Bolly girl, which is apparently a term for one of the singing or dancing girls in the show. Because he was like, she's beautiful. Like, why not bring her up there? As a ticket taker, dating a performer was off limits, but as a Bolly girl, she would be another performer in the show and their relationship would be very acceptable. So fortunately for everyone, Wright did see

something he liked in Teresa and was like, you know what? You're right. Well, that's good. Hopefully she made some more money. Yeah. And that's the thing. He gave her a chance as a performer. So for Teresa, it was a huge step up. She got some more money. And so she was able to better provide for Deborah, which Teresa seems like I feel really bad for Teresa because she seems like she's had this awful life. She's been really taken advantage of and treated horribly by the men in her life, but she just wants to be like, she wants to take care of her kids.

Yeah. She wants to be that really does seem like there's a lot of like, I really just want to do right by my kids and she wasn't done right for. Right. So it's really hard to break that cycle. Especially back then when you had nothing, like no resources really to count on as far as therapy and mental health help. Like she's not being taught how to break this cycle or that it's important to break it at

all. It's just inherent in her. You can just tell that Teresa does have something inside of her that just desperately wants to break that cycle. That's who she is. She doesn't make, she makes some poor choices later, but I do believe that like deep down in there, she just really wanted to do right by her kids.

Yeah. But this, so this move up also moved her closer to the action at the center of the show. And more importantly to her, closer to Grady. Cause she liked him too. She liked him too. Within a few months, she had moved up from a dancing girl to become a sort of Jack of all trades within the performances. One of her more prominent roles was Blade Box Girl, which was a kind of assistant to

the magic act where she would step into the box and appear to be stabbed a million times with swords and come out and be like, I'm fine. Oh my God. That must have been real scary. Yeah, so she was the lovely assistant, essentially. At the same time as she was so excited to be on stage, she was so excited that Grady Stiles had chosen her as the object of his affection.

Having only ever known very negative and abusive attention from the men in her life, being with Grady, she said, was unlike anything she'd ever experienced. He was showering her with gifts, with praise, attention, making her feel wanted and adored. She said Grady was such a charming man. Everyone enjoyed being in his company. Now not long after beginning their relationship, they started living together. And with Grady, Grady was now stepping in as a father to Deborah. And it seemed like everything was going great.

In the off season, they returned to Gibsonton where Teresa found work in a Tampa shrimp factory during the off season. And within a few years, their first child, Margaret was born. Unfortunately, less than a month after Margaret was born, she died from pneumonia. Oh, that's terrible. The situation repeated itself with their next child, David, who also died a month after his birth from pneumonia. And it was attributed to the poor living conditions of life in a traveling circus. Wow.

Now, the health problems continued for the Stiles family because a few months later, Grady Stiles Sr. was struggling with poor health too. Finally, he decided to retire from traveling altogether. Now unable to afford the cost of living in Florida, Grady Sr. moved back to Pittsburgh and found a small apartment there. So now Grady Jr. is worried about his parents in Pittsburgh because they're in poor health and he's in Florida. So he started renting an apartment in the city so he could check on them and be around them. The apartment was a huge financial strain on them,

obviously, because it's just another expense. So to help support them in the off season, Grady Jr. began performing in a one-man show to make extra money when they weren't on the road. The work allowed him to support himself and his wife, but this additional work, plus the stress of traveling back and forth to Pittsburgh and the unexpected tragic deaths of two children.

Like, it's a lot on your plate. It brought out a meanness and grady that Teresa said she had never seen even the slightest hint of before. So this came, she was like, this came out of nowhere. He didn't deal well with stress and grief. A lot of people say that the death of a child will change you.

Can change your relationship. And it really depends on one, the strength of the relationship to begin with and things that are lying dormant and the people that are experiencing it. So obviously something was lying dormant in Grady Styles that that's just brought it right out brought it all out So the bitterness this frustration the rage it all and what he saw is his constant misfortune

It led him to start drinking heavily Which only exacerbated the anger and before long he was directing it all that Teresa According to Fred Rosen Grady was a good provider. However, when he was drinking, Grady started beating Teresa, taking care to keep his blows to her body so no one would see the bruises. Wow. So he knows. And to me that is diabolical.

That is diabolical. Cause you know what you're doing is wrong and you're not even just, to have the wherewithal to think like that clearly, while beating someone. That someone can see. Yeah, that's fucked up. That's dark.

In 1963, Teresa gave birth for a third time. And this time the baby would not only survive, but also managed to not inherit Grady's condition. Okay. The healthy birth of their daughter, Donna, was a relief to Teresa, who obviously already experienced two traumatic births and traumatic deaths. But the girls' health, like seemingly quote unquote normal

mobility seemed to fuel Grady's anger. Following Donna's birth, Grady began to drink even more than he had. He was staying out late with other carnies and sometimes not coming home for days. Fred Rosen said when he did come home, he would generally make it to the living room and pass out on the floor. Sometimes he'd throw up first and sleep in his own vomit. Oh, fuck. In the morning, Deborah and Donna would get up

and they would have to step over Grady to get out of the trailer. So the children would have to just step over him in his own vomit to get out of their house. That's horrific. Now, looking back on her childhood, Donna reflected on her childhood saying, there was nothing really good I can recall.

Yeah, I mean, when you're stepping over your dad in his own vomit. Is it your abusive dad? To leave your home. She said he always drank, continually drank. I really started noticing it at about seven because he would yell at us if he was drinking at home. That's so sad. Seven years old. To realize that at seven years old is fucked.

For a time, the girls could rely on school to get away from this whole abuse, but even that was unreliable because Grady would routinely pull them out of school three or four months before the end of the year to help the traveling show. How are they even moving on at school? Exactly.

In 1969, Theresa gave birth again, this time to a daughter they named Catherine, who was born with the condition. The birth of their second daughter should have been a joyous occasion for any couple, but it didn't do anything to stop Grady's drinking or lessen the violence in the household. Things finally came to a head one night in the mid-1970s when Grady and Teresa got into a really bad argument after the show. Donna said that night after closing, he called mom out in the show. They were arguing.

She came back into the trailer crying. And then he came back in the trailer, pulled the door open, let it slam real hard. And he took $20 and he threw it at her after throwing the money at her He screamed take your fucking kids and get out of my face. Oh her kids her kids. Okay. Yeah, literally fuck this guy Yeah, fuck he's awful Because he does this and then what he does later. I'm like go fuck yourself and in front of his kids Oh, he does awful shit to the the girl's surprise, and this is where you really see moments of Teresa

just making like very smart choices for her kids. And then obviously, you know, she's a very abused woman. Yeah. Very abused, very traumatized. So she obviously makes some questionable ones later. Right. But this is one that really shocked the girls as well because he's a scary guy. So they were surprised because their mother did not say like, oh, he's just, you know,

drunkenly ranting, like just leave him alone, which often would happen. Instead, she just looked at them and she said, pack a bag and we're leaving. And she packed her own suitcase and they all left and they got a room at a motel across the street. Once they were there, she called her friend Harry Glenn Newman, who was part of the circus as well. He was known and this is what he was known by back then. He was known as midget man. Oh man. Dude, his small stature. Gotcha. Um, things were different then. Things were real bad then. Yeah. Uh, after leaving Grady that night, Glenn became a lifesaver for Teresa. He allowed them all, the girls and her to live in a small camper on his property until

they all moved to Ohio to live with Glenn's mother. For several months, the children finally got to enjoy stability and normalcy of children their age. Like things were happy without the chaos of this traveling show or a rageful, abusive, like alcoholic father. Unfortunately that was short-lived because about four months, five months after leaving Grady, Teresa received a summons and traveled to a Pennsylvania courthouse with the girls. Unbeknownst to her, after she left Grady,

he filed for divorce and petitioned the court for custody of the children. Even though he literally told her to leave with her children. Oh, they're yours now? Yeah. Okay. Because she had been unaware of the divorce.

Right. Because he did it without her knowing. Right. And she didn't know that he had filed for custody. Yeah. So she didn't contest anything because she didn't know what had happened right and the court awarded awarded full custody of the children Are you fucking kidding me? Which is so fucked up? Yeah, it is Grady took the girls back to Florida with him Wow, which just breaks my fucking heart

Because I truly believe if these girls have been allowed to live with Teresa and Glenn, they would have had a totally different childhood. They could have started healing from things. They're young enough to forget some things. They get even more traumatized. So Grady takes the girls back to Florida with him, but only long enough to sell the house they lived in and get rid of all his wife's belongings. Oh, that's normal. Kathy later said, Catherine said he gave all of mom's whatnots lamps and all of her stuff to his sister. He would not let her come back to get her clothes, which included a fur coat and some evening dresses. He gave away all of her clothes.

That's so fucked up. That's abusive in its own way. Yeah. You know, Oh, he's just an asshole. With Teresa out of the picture, Grady began seeing a woman named Barbara who quickly moved herself and her daughter in with the styles is family full time. Catherine said later, she wanted to put herself in my mom's place.

She wanted to be our mother. She tried to force herself onto us, but she wasn't trying to be like a mother. She was she because Teresa disciplinary was known by her children, they all agree, she was a loving, caring, kind mother. Like a mama. She was a mama. Barbara only seemed interested in playing the role to the extent that it got her closer to Grady. So she's that stepmother.

She's Meredith Blake-ing it. Rather than actually do any parenting, most of the responsibility for raising the children, including Barbara's daughter, Susie, fell to Donna since Deborah had decided to move out of the house after the divorce. Now after moving the family back to Pittsburgh to be near his parents, Grady's drunken, violent behavior continued without interruption, including the period where Barbara was pregnant with their child. In 1976, Barbara gave birth to a boy, the couple named Grady the third, who was born with the same condition as his father and his half sister at this point. In the meantime, Teresa kept living

with Glenn Newman, who turned out to be a pretty good husband and a good provider. In 1974, she gave birth to a boy, Harry Glenn Jr. known as Glennie, everybody. They were obviously very happy to have a little baby boy, but she had a profound sense of pain and loss of having lost her children to get Grady because he was refusing to let her see them. Wow. So she was trying her everything she could to see them or have contact with them and he wouldn't let them. And it's like, why did he get full custody? I mean, very different time again, but.

Yeah, despite everything though, Theresa was still hopeful that one day she was going to be able to have a relationship with her daughters again. So she convinced Glenn to move to Pittsburgh. Wow. And Glenn was like, let's go. Glenn seems like the best guy. I know, so they moved to Pittsburgh. Wow. And Glenn was like, let's go. Glenn seems like the best guy. I know he does. So they moved to Pittsburgh to be closer to the girls so she could start really

trying to get them back. Yeah. Now this pissed Grady off in a massive way. In the winter of 1976, the full extent of Grady's cruelty became apparent when after some conversation, he agreed to let Theresa take the girls to visit her mother in Vermont for Christmas. Oh, this is going to ruin me. But rather than have Glenn and Theresa just pick them up, Grady insisted they meet him at a bar near his apartment where he proceeded to get violently drunk. After downing five or six drinks, they all went back to the apartment to get the girls

only to discover that none get the girls, only to discover that none of the girls were there. The place was empty. Sitting on the couch, Grady reached beneath him and pulled out a revolver, pointing it at Glenn and Teresa. Moments later, Paul Fishbaugh, who was the sideshow's known as the Fat Man, emerged from another room holding a shotgun. Holy shit. With Paul Fishbaugh now guarding Glenn, who remember has a very small stature. So this giant man is holding this smaller man.

So he can't protect his wife. So he can't protect his wife with a shotgun. Grady then started beating Teresa viciously in front of her husband, her helpless husband. Baby Glenn was also there and was screaming the entire time. Oh my God. Yeah. When he'd finally tired of hitting Teresa, he let them leave before, but not before telling them don't bother me anymore. Next time I'm going to kill you, Glenn and your son. Wow.

That was because she had agreed to let her daughters go for Christmas. Why don't you just say no? Yeah, because he's a cruel son of a bitch. He is. His cruelty continued in the years that followed and even moving out of the apartment wasn't enough to escape it.

In April, 1978, when Donna was 15 years old, her cousin introduced her to 18 year old Jack Lane and the two hit it off immediately. Knowing her father would do anything he could to drive Jack away, because why would you allow your daughters to have happiness? The couple frequently met in secret, often spending time together in a park a few blocks away from the apartment. One evening in September, after hearing countless stories of Grady's abuse, Jack was like, I can't let you go back there. I can't just keep sending you back to this place and hearing what he does to you. So Jack took Donna to his sister's apartment trying to give

her some space to be safe. When she called home a few days later, Grady fucking lost it, screaming at her, demanding she return home immediately. And he told her, I got detectives looking for you. They'll find you. And when I find that boy that's with you, I'm going to kill him. Oh no. Now, and she's telling him like, he's a good guy.

He's just wants to keep like, take care of me. Because you beat the shit out of me and are violent. For years, Donna had listened to her father's drunken rants and threats of violence against her mother and her siblings. And she'd suffered more than the others when it came to physical abuse. But when it came to threats of killing Jack, Donna was like, I didn't believe

that he was gonna go through with it. Oh no. Like I understood that he like beat the shit out of us and threatened us, but like I didn't think he would do it outside of our family. Like kill someone. What she didn't know was on September 11th, Grady went down to Pitloan, a local pawn shop,

and submitted an application to purchase a new H&R 32 caliber pistol. Donna didn't return home, but kept living with Jack's sister for several more days, fearing what was going to happen if she went home. Yeah. Donna and Jack decided the only way to get her away from her father for good was for them to get married. Mm-hmm. But she was only 15 years old.

Right. So she would need parental consent. And in late September, she called her father and explained what she wanted to do. And to her surprise, he didn't object. That's terrifying because it sounds like Christmas. Yeah. If you're listening to this podcast, you know that a day can change in an instant. How many stories have we told where one little thing just snowballed out of control and led down some really dark paths.

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That's rocketmoney.com slash morbid, rocketmoney.com slash morbid. Donna and Jack planned to get married in a small ceremony on September 28th. And then the days before it, they took all the details, took care of everything, including applying for the marriage license, getting the blood test you had to get back then. You had to do a blood test? On the morning of September 27th, Donna met Jack at his house and the two went out to do some shopping before turning to Grady's apartment

where Donna was planning to clean for the wedding reception. So like he was gonna be involved in this. They weren't running away to get married. She was doing it all with him. She was involving him. When they arrived, Grady wasn't home, but he had instead gone down to a bar, of course, where he stayed until 7 p.m. and drank 12 double whiskies.

Holy. Yeah. So 24 whiskies. Yeah. So they went out to get some food for the reception. And when they got home around 730, they found a very drunk Grady sitting on the couch. His wheelchair was nowhere in sight. Grady said he had left it out by the front door and someone stole it.

So they all were like, oh shit, so they volunteered to go out into the neighborhood and look for it. As they were all leaving the house, Grady said, actually Jack, why don't you stay back with me? No. And Donna recalled, Barbara and I went around into the metered parking lot out back looking for the wheelchair. We were just about halfway around and I heard a bang. And then I heard a bang again immediately after and I ran towards the house. When I got there, Jack came stumbling out of the house. He was holding his chest in the middle. Oh God. When he reached Donna, he collapsed on the ground and began coughing out blood.

And they were just going to get married. And he's like her protector. Yeah. And she, Donna said, it didn't seem real. It seemed like a joke. I looked up and dad was standing on his knees, looking out the window, smiling at me. What a son of a bitch. When she asked why he'd done it, he said, because I told you I would.

Why he is? Cruel isn't even the word. It goes so far beyond. He's a piece of absolute shit. The demon. By then they could hear sirens coming. The rule isn't even the word. It goes so far beyond. He's a piece of absolute shit. By then they could hear sirens coming. When they arrived, Barbara explained, so that stepmother explained what they believed happened

and pointed them in the direction. So she was like, he did it. She was like, that's fucked up. And Grady was sitting in a large overstuffed chair, the gun sitting on an end table next beside him. And according to Detective Joseph Stottlemeyer, when the arresting officers entered the room, he said, take me, I'm ready.

And he was arrested without incident. Okay. The bullet entered Jack's chest on the left side and exited from his right shoulder. He was rushed to the hospital by ambulance, but he died a few hours later from his wounds. Oh, that's just awful. That also escalated the crime from attempted murder to second degree murder.

Grady was taken to the county jail to await his arraignment. Also, I wonder why second degree. I think it was because... He said he was going to, that's very much first degree. That's what I'm saying. I think that should have been first degree. I don't think it would have mattered either way. Because in the meantime, a coroner's inquest was held to determine exactly what the fuck happened

in that apartment. And during the inquest, Donna explained that she and Jack had run off together a few weeks earlier and that her father had, quote, not been happy about the impending marriage. Though he had consented to it. During his testimony, Detective Stottlemeyer recounted Grady's statement, telling the panel of the jury that Grady claimed he had heard talk in the street that Lane, which is Jack,

had been saying nasty things about his daughter, and he had taken all he could take, pulled out his.32 caliber revolver and shot Lane. Yeah, that's not how it happened. That's not it at all. Grady was arraigned on a charge of third degree murder. And in early 1979, the case went to trial. Over the course of several weeks, a number of family members testified that Grady had made threats towards Jack and Donna, and Donna herself testified that she had been with her

father when he purchased the gun. However, several other witnesses, including Grady, indicated he he purchased the gun. However, several other witnesses, including Grady, indicated he had purchased the gun because Barbara had been receiving threatening phone calls. Okay. Testifying in his own defense, Grady told the jury that Donna had changed since she started dating Jack. Yeah, she was probably happier.

She was more independent. She would sneak out of the house late at night and come home sometimes with beer on her breath. Oh honey. Okay, glass house. For real. Okay, glass house. Grady also claimed that once they were alone, Jack had come at him in a menacing fashion. I bet.

And he said, I don't know what came over him, but I was scared, I guess, of him killing me. Okay. I doubt it. Yeah. The projection here is wild. Yeah. As for all the contradictory evidence and witness statements, Grady claimed all those people, including the police, got together and fabricated their stories. The police often do that. That's a real dumb thing to say.

For sure. Totally. On February 22nd, 1979, the jury retired for deliberation and returned a little over three hours later to find Grady guilty of third degree murder. When the verdict was read, Grady began weeping at the defense table. The verdict came as a surprise to many, including the prosecutor, who actually expected an acquittal would come because of sympathy for his condition. However, while the verdict was like, yippee, it also posed some complications. Primarily, was there a jail or prison in Pennsylvania capable of accommodating someone in Grady's condition for as long as 15 or 20 years? And there wasn't? After careful consideration, the answer was no.

That's ridiculous. Yes. In the end, Judge Thomas Harper did his best to find middle ground in sentence graded to 15 years of probation. Noting, quote, no prison in the state can accommodate a person with his physical deformities. That's a quote. After reading the sentence in court, the judge said, I'm not sure that a prison term would not be cruel and unusual punishment in this case. Society doesn't require vengeance, and I felt a probationary term met the best interests for society and the defendant. The prosecution, though disappointed with the sentence, didn't make a man. Yeah. Like it sucks that nobody was willing. Nobody could. Cause that's the thing. It's like, you can't just accommodate it out.

And it's like, nobody could accommodate him. And then now he gets to. Because I wonder what he, what he would have required aside from like something wheelchair accessible. I think that's enough. That's it. Right. I think that's enough for it. And they didn't have, they didn't have that. That's cause think about it. Just wasn't a priority. The seventies that are like, it's crazy. Yeah. Anyway. And they didn't have anything of that. Because think of wild. It just wasn't a priority back then. It's the 70s though.

Like, it's crazy. Yeah, anyway. Now after Jack's murder, cold-blooded murder, his sister and other family members blamed Donna for his death and refused to allow her to stay with them any longer. So she was allowed by court order, luckily, to return to Florida to live with her mother, Theresa and Glenn, finally. So that's great. Under the circumstances.

But that's really shitty. Like she didn't do anything wrong. I know. And under the circumstances, I love this too, because Theresa also insisted Donna bring Catherine with her and Grady did not put up a fight. Oh, wow. So they were able to go live with Theresa and Glenn. And those were the only two of the daughters left in his care, right?

Because Deborah had moved out early on. And she was older. Yeah. Now throughout the 1980s though, life for Glen, Theresa and the kids was a struggle. After his tire business went under, Glen was forced to return to the carnival circus to perform his role as the world's smallest man.

And once again, Theresa found herself kind of back where she started trying to figure stuff out. Every year when the school year would come to an end, they would have to pack up the kids and join Glenn on the road to help with their responsibilities. It was seeming to like a pattern was repeating here because that's difficult. Yeah, of course.

And Glenn was having difficulty because he was getting older. Yeah. It was not easy. For more than a decade, they had had a good marriage. He had been a stable, very constant presence in Teresa's life and he had treated her better than any other man. And he was a good father to the children.

But as the 80s came to a close, she was starting to feel a little restless in the marriage. And she was kind of growing tired of being, a constant helper and just going along for the ride. Like having to go out on the road and doing all that stuff. And she wanted- Wrangle all the kids. Yeah, and she sees that she's doing the same pattern

just with a nicer man, you know what I mean? But it's still the same, like, I'm not doing right by these kids by taking them on the road. It's a tough life. You know? And so in 1990, Theresa and Glenn divorced and she moved out, taking the kids with her.

It should have been a liberating moment, you know, because she spent her entire life waiting on, accommodating, following, having to be the assistant for men. But she quickly found herself lonely because she's also a human being. In response, she called up Grady. This is where we get to where I say, what? What? Yeah. What? Here's the thing though. So he had separated from his wife

and in the years since his conviction, I know. I'm sorry, me and Mikey are literally like looking at each other like what the fuck? I agree. I'm with you on this. I'm shocked. I am shocked. I am dismayed. Grady had been on house arrest during this time because of the probation. For 15 fucking years. For murdering her daughter's fiance. So he could not continue drinking the way he was on probation. So he had scaled back and for the first time in many years, he was pretty sober.

So for Teresa, she thought she was seeing a glimpse at the Grady she knew when they were first dating. Because remember, she got kind of love bombed. Not kind of, she got very much love bombed. And she saw this amazing man who was like, and they had gone so far as to get married to have very happily, had children very happily. And then it was like everything just imploded at once. And then he became a heavy drinker and things got worse.

So for her, I'm just trying to like, I'm just trying to like not shit on Teresa. Absolutely. Because like, I feel like Teresa had such a shit life and such hardships that I just feel for this little family. You know what I mean? I feel for these children. I feel for, I don't know. It's a very sad situation.

I'm sure being in a relationship like that like fucking alters your brain chemistry. That's the thing. I'm trying not to like judge too hard for her because I'm like, I don't know what it's like to have been in that kind of turmoil. And have children with somebody and love them. And have your children be in that, like I can't fathom it, I really can't. So while I don't understand this decision,

I don't, I don't understand it either. I can at least stand from back here and say, I don't know what your life feels like. And I don't know what it felt for you to think you were seeing a hint of who you fell in love with at first. Yeah, you have to have empathy for the situation. So that's why I'm like stepping back

from my full-blown judgment here and trying to look at it from like, you were seeing someone you fell in love with or you thought you were, you know what I mean? It's just a really fucked up sad situation. I really feel just awful for these children, for really. Especially Donna. That's the thing.

Well, that's the thing. That's where I say, what the fuck? Like that's just a level. For your father to kill your husband like days before you're to marry him, not go to prison because of all the different circumstances, finally get away from him, even though, like, his family thinks that it's your fault. Then you get to go live with your mother again. And she brings that man back into your life.

Right back into his... That's the thing, like Donna, all of them, all those kids I feel bad for. The person I feel most, most for is Donna. I feel so horrible for these kids. Because that's just such like trauma on top of trauma. That's the thing. On top of trauma. And it's like, it's compounding trauma.

It's also like, Theresa has kind of been molded since she was a child truly to bend to the whims of men and accommodate them and kind of demean yourself for them, like not really think of yourself as an independent person who can do this. Who can break out on their own. And even in her moments of doing it, you know what I mean? I feel like she always gets sucked back in with some man who's kind of taking the reins. Yeah, I mean, she's a victim. And so she's a victim of her own right,

but then it's like these children are a victim of these men and also they're unfortunately their mother's trauma of not being able to be without these men. And it's like, so there's this awful, and that's what I meant when I was saying like, you can see that there was, Teresa wanted to break this cycle, but there was something broken

that she was struggling to fix. And I think it just makes me really sad that like all of these young women and all of them weren't broiled in this. Yeah. Because it's like, what the fuck? Like, it's just like, this guy is a monster. It's just tragic.

A straight up monster. And it's like, Teresa wanted to break free. I just, I just am like, I wanted her to break free with Glenn and those kids right off the jump. Cause it's like, this would have been such a different story. Yeah. But Grady had to be cruel and he had to pull those kids back just to abuse them, right? Just to traumatize them. And it's like, I don't think they would have lived with this much trauma if they had lived with Teresa. So she goes, she goes back and goes back and does he step out again?

So again, for Teresa, this whole thing is, and I'm just seeking from what she's saying, is that she's saying she saw a glimpse of who she fell in love with. She saw a sober Grady who she thought could be who he was. So they were talking regularly over the phone. Still, Teresa knew her children, especially Donna,

disapproved of any of this, any kind of relationship with Grady. So she wouldn't bring him up around them, but they knew. Yeah, like obviously. And also, why are you even doing it? If you know that they can't have a part of this, it's like, why are you even doing it? It's just not something you should be doing.

Yeah, old habits die hard. Donna later said, I still wouldn't talk to him on the phone and she wouldn't talk about him with us. Following her divorce from Glenn, Teresa moved the kids to Okeechobee, Florida. And again, they're moving everywhere. All the time. And soon Grady had relocated back to Gibson in Florida, where he'd spent much of his life. As he and Teresa got kind of re-acquainted with one another, she encouraged the kids to spend time with him.

Okay. I can understand. I'm sure like I can't understand it, but I'm sure in her mind it was important for them to have their father. And it's again, something is broken here. Yes. Like Teresa has dealt with things that and it's again, it doesn't give anybody a pass to be a bad parent. No. And I think she would probably agree that this was one of the worst choices she could have made. Yeah. Because honestly, she does regret this choice later. She does. So there's that. And we have to remember that we're looking at this through a lens where like we know so much about so much now that we didn't know about back then.

But again, it does not give a pass to put your children through this kind of stuff. It just doesn't. And I personally, I cannot understand it. I'm trying to look at it through a very logical, like totally kind of disconnected lens of like, well, this is what she's thinking. That's a thing she said. And I don't want to like shit all over her because she's been through a lot.

No, that's it. You can't understand but you can empathize. Exactly. I can't understand. I can empathize with what she's gone through, but I cannot understand this parenting decision. I simply cannot. I'm in awe right now. And again, all the kids, and they're getting older now, especially too, they're like becoming

teenagers and stuff. They're all reluctant to go down this road again because, you know, there was the murder. Because they know what happens. It was the murder. Of somebody's fiance. There was that. If it's a flat or a squeal, a wobble or peel, your dread's worn down or you need a new wheel. Wherever you go, you can get it from our tread experts.

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Again, I have a good dad, so I can't speak from somebody who has a shitty parent who has made steps to make the relationship better. You know what I mean? Oh, actually, I can't do that. Exactly. So I don't want to speak from this experience to say, I don't understand how they could even entertain this because again, I was't understand how they can even, you know, entertain this. Because again, I didn't have...

I was lucky enough to not have this situation. Well, I think when you have such a shitty parent, like, you... All you want is for them to be better. And all you want... Like, abandonment issues are insane. Like, I can't imagine what these kids must have felt. They can paint every single part of your life. Yeah, and they do. The rest of your life.

And they do. Like I'm fine. I'm very well adjusted, but like I still struggle with that shit. I'm sure. So if you, if your parent is actually making the effort, that's all you want. So of course, you're going to go along with it. I mean, obviously. I've just never been in a position of somebody making effort.

Well yeah, there you go. And I have people close to me, like very close to me, who had awful relationships with their parents, and then their parents tried to make it right later. And it is a very conflicting, very hard thing for somebody, even as an adult to deal with. Because no matter what, no matter how shitty your parents are, they're still your parents and some weird part of you

is always going to want them to be your parents. And they're always your parents when your parents suck. I think it's so hard to make those kind of decisions, like when somebody is making an effort, because you're always their child. That, yeah. I can't imagine how that feels. And you go back into the role of being the child. Yeah.

And feeling the things that you felt when you were a child, like wanting your parent. Yeah, because like biologically, we all have, we want our parents to be our safe place. And when they're not, I can't imagine how that throws you into like, because again, I'm very fortunate enough that I do not have parents who made me feel unsafe.

Yeah, mom and papa rock out loud. They do, they rock out loud. So it's like, I'm speaking from a place where like I can't tell you how this feels. And I know a lot of you listening, our speaking can come from a place of the total opposite. Where your parents weren't and aren't and couldn't be your safe space.

And I'm sorry, because I can't imagine how that feels. And it can really transform how you make decisions. Yeah. It can color every part of your existence for the rest of your life. I'm just thinking of how therapy just was not a thing back then. Yeah. And not really at all. No.

I would be so different if I hadn't done years and years of therapy. That's the thing. And we're adding on again, I know like people I really love and care about who have gone through like dealing with parents coming back and trying to build a relationship and really putting an effort. But those parents also didn't kill their spouse. That's a whole other layer of it.

That's a whole layer onto this where I'm like. Cause then you had grief into it. Yes. And blame and. And you took someone I love from me. Like quite literally. Like you literally took someone I love. And that's where I say like, Teresa, how could you ask them to do this?

That's the thing with Donna. It's just... How can you ask her to do this? And again, you're her mother. She's going to want to please you. And you're supposed to protect her. It's like, and that's where the safe space gets snipped for a minute. Cause then she has no safe space. Cause then your mother shouldn't be asking you to do her. It's like, and that's where the safe space gets snipped for a minute. Cause then she has no safe space. Cause then your mother shouldn't be asking you to do this. Yeah.

I also think it's probably, and I'm sure people listening feel this way. It's so, again, I can't understand, but I can have empathy, but it is hard to have empathy in a situation like this. Oh my God. Yeah. I haven't even gone through something similar to that. Exactly. At all. But like, when somebody wrongs their child

and you're a child who's been wronged, you're just like, god damn it. Well, that's the thing. And I have like, I always have to pull myself back a little bit because I get real fucking mad when people mistreat their kids. Well, because you- And I'm not even a mistreated kid.

I just, I think of my kids and I'm like- You think of your kids and like frankly, like just for everybody who thinks that me and Elena have a weird relationship. Elena is my protector. Like genuinely like your people's protector and the other people in your life who have gone through similar things. You're their protector. So you're like, don't wrong. I'm like, I'm gonna fuck you up. That's why you feel that way. Because because you're the safe space. Yes. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. You are. That's the thing. So that's why you feel that way. Because you're the safe space. Yes. Oh, thank you.

I appreciate that. No, you are. That's what I strive to be for my little... You are. ...goobins in my life. And you are one of my little goobins in my life. I am a goobin. And I think of who wronged you and I want to fucking...

This is a come therapy. Anyway, what happened? What happened? But yeah, I think it just, he seemed like he was trying to get sober. He was doing his best with that. And then he was making it clear to them that he wanted to rebuild the relationship. And that he felt some kind of, some kind of regret. Yeah, remorse. And so they softened. Okay. But still, genuine or not, he couldn't wipe away the lifetime worth of horrible, abusive, violent, horrific, traumatizing memories.

You just can't. And Donna says, I don't think I ever started loving my father like a dad again, which is very sad for her. Well, you know what though? It is very sad. That like she didn't ever get that ability to do that. He wasn't her dad. Well, that's what he took.

I hope she knows that that is not her inability to love him again. It was his inability to be a lovable person. Right. He never was a father to her. To like give that to her. How can you love somebody like a father when they're not a father to you? He was never a father to them. And when they take away somebody who finally did protect you.

And wanted to protect you. Right. Like, so that I really hope that like Donna and their kids like know that they have done nothing wrong in this situation and that they, they were totally valid in their feelings and their hesitation here. Now not long after Grady moved back to Florida, he and Teresa got remarried. Okay. Which seemed to have been his goal, since

that first phone call, Teresa made to him after her divorce. And unfortunately, once Grady got what he wanted, he began sliding right back into his old ways. That's tragic. That is truly tragic for everyone involved. And I'll say, fortunately for some of the children, all of them had moved out by then. Thank goodness. Except for Glennie, who was a teenager. Okay. And he's not Grady's child.

Yeah. So I can only imagine how Grady felt about that. Exactly. But soon enough, even the kids that were out of the house were starting to notice that their father wasn't very around very often. And they would call or visit and he wouldn't be there. And he, you know, he'd be spending time at bars again. He was out for days.

And eventually Teresa did admit to Donna that Grady was fully back in his old ways, like spending all their money at bars. Abusing her again. Yeah, right back to it. And because his temper came right back, the frustrations, the anger, the rage, he was abusing her, he was abusing, like it was bad. One night in late 1991, after a night out drinking, he returned home and demanded that Teresa bring him a drink in bed.

So Teresa did, but she handed him the drink and she said, this is the last drink I'm gonna get you. And in response, he grabbed a handful of her hair and yanked her back on the bed hard enough to pull clumps of it from her scalp. Oh, fuck. Do remember too, she's horribly afraid of this man. Of course she is, he's beaten the shit out of her for years. Which makes it worse that she is now in this position again,

because like, I wish you would stay away from him. Yeah. Because like, he has gone most of his life also keeping that upper body strength. So he is... Oh, I didn't even think of that. Not only is he a frightening and very rage... He's strong.

Like raging guy, he's very, very strong. And when you're, you have crazy upper body strength, you can do a lot of damage. Yeah, of course. Now, after this whole incident happened, Theresa felt that feeling she hadn't felt in years, which is, I'm fucking tired of this. Yeah.

She'd had enough. And so getting, she said, this whole, that whole thing was a mistake. I should have never got, she says it, I should have never gotten back together with him. And she said, but now I am facing the consequences of my actions. Oh God, get out of there.

She thought about leaving again, but by then she didn't have the same resources or willpower that she'd had the last time she left him. And he had been getting, he had been using all their money at bars. So she stayed and endured the abuse, which was inevitably followed by the sense of guilt for having fallen right back into Grady's trap. It's a cycle.

Exactly. By November, it really shows you how to scary the abuse cycle is and that people will go back into it just because of how deeply rooted the abuse cycle is. It's like really scary and really sad. The fact that we treat each other this way and the fact that like we treat people we supposedly love this way as like a society. We're the only species. We got to get it together. I say that every time. Like we got to get it fucking together. We do.

Like this kind of shit pisses me off so much. I'm like, you don't have to be this way. You do not have to be a fucking cruel piece of shit to the people who look to you for protection and to be a safe place. So by November, 1992 life with Grady was fucking unbearable for Teresa and Glennie. Despite his attempts at sobriety a few years earlier, he had just, he was fully back, fully back to being abusive, cruel, and alcoholic. The same man who had beaten her while her husband watched helplessly, by the way, and then had threatened to murder her son, Glenn,

when he was a child. Yep. So that, yeah. And now that same son is living under the roof with him. Yep. She was desperate to get out of the house and away from him But it seemed like no matter what she did or where she looked there was just no options for escape in the end It wasn't Teresa who took charge of the situation. It was Glennie the 17 year old Glenn Jr

I knew it was headed that way. He resolved to do something about his stepfather and he wanted to save his mother That November Glenn called up the toughest person he could think of, which was 17-year-old Chris Wyant. Even though he was just 17, Chris, an occasional sideshow performer, had a very long criminal record. And Glenn, he was certain Chris would know what to do about his stepfather. And remember, this kid, Glenn, has watched his mother be beaten by this man his entire life while his father was held down with a shotgun.

His entire life. Uh huh. Just saying. Like his whole fucking life. I don't know what happens, but that's what I have in my mind right now. You can't, again, no one will ever say that murder is the correct end game for anything. It's not a good choice. So if you take that from what we're saying, then like you didn't listen.

You're clearly not listening. But no one's saying that. But what this is a clear show of, like evidence of, is you cannot beat someone down their entire life. You just can't. Like people explode. You just can't do that. You can't treat someone like this for their whole life.

As we saw with Ken McElroy, that whole thing, you can't do that. Cause you do lose, people lose their humanity for you because you have treated them subhuman their whole life. You know what I mean? It's like, this kid wanted to protect his mom and it's like really sad and he didn't know any other option and it's like, obviously he made the wrong decision.

But fuck, like the whole thing it's like, obviously he made the wrong decision. Right. But fuck. Like the whole thing is just like, God damn. Like he's broken down. I just wish none of this happened. It's really sad. So on November 26th, Glennie and Chris met at a local park where Glennie gave his friend the details of everything that was happening and said, can you just help me?

Help me end this. The price would later be disputed in court. But Chris initially told Glenny he would take care of the situation for 300 bucks. In the end, he would be paid $1,500. Regardless of the actual price though, Chris did agree to take care of Grady and Glenny agreed to pay him. A few days later, Glenny would try to call the whole thing off and get his money back

So you can tell he just He was desperate and then he was like fuck I shouldn't do this But by then Chris had already bought a gun and spent the rest of the money So the deal went forward as planned on the evening of November 29th Glennie broke down and told his mother about the arrangement Which also shows you that this, he has remorse. Already. He hasn't even done it and he's like, I fucked up. Yeah.

But you can tell the desperation in this kid. Because he's just like, to break down and tell his mom, he's just like, I don't know what to do. Like, I just wanted to help you. Heartbreaking. Yeah. To his surprise, though, his mother didn't express a sense of shock or attempt to call the police to put an end to the whole thing. Instead, she and Glennie left the house quietly, leaving Grady asleep in his chair watching television. A few hours later, around 11 p.m., Chris Wyant slipped into the trailer through the back door

they'd left open. Having been there a few times, he knew the layout, so he tried to go silently and be quiet, but he made a noise and he woke Grady up. He began shouting at Chris to get out and never come back, and Chris went back a few steps into the kitchen like he was going to leave, but then he aimed the gun and fired, and the bullet hit Grady in the back of the head and killed him instantly. Wow. Then, just to be sure, he fired two more shots, both hit Grady in the head, just a few centimeters from the first wound.

With Grady now dead, Chris ran out the back door and fled into the night. From where they were sitting in the neighbor's living room, Glenny and Teresa could hear the gunshots. They're just next door. Yeah, they're just next door. Glenny even remembered looking out the window and seeing Chris run from the trailer. Damn. And he said, when he saw him fleeing the scene,

he knew the terror they'd been living with, that his mother had been living with for decades, had finally come to an end, and that they would not have to worry about the lobster boy again. Wow. That was what Glennie said. To detectives at the scene, things in the house were immediately suspicious, obviously.

The killer had clearly entered through an unlocked door. Nothing was missing. And so they were like, this wasn't a robbery. This was clearly a targeted assassination. A spokesperson for the sheriff's office told reporters the next day, we've got some leads, but we're not saying much. So they were being cagey with the press

and it's likely because they already knew what happened in the Stiles house and they didn't want to let out any details before they were ready. By the time they finished taking Glenn Jr's statement that night, they more or less had a pretty accurate understanding of how things had unfolded from his contracting Chris Wyant through the murder. The following morning, they arrested Teresa, Glenn Jr. and Chris Wyant on a charge of first degree murder based on the statements of Teresa and her son.

So they basically just admitted it? Yeah. Wow. The trial for all three began in July of the next year with the defense attorney arguing that Teresa and Glenn had been pushed to the point of murder after years of domestic violence. At the time, the domestic violence aspect of the case, which was known as battered wife syndrome was relatively new and pretty novel, but it turned out they wouldn't get a chance to try it because the judge ordered that self-defense cannot be argued if it's a contract murder.

The case was further disrupted a few days later when a mistrial was declared because there was issues with the jury and the prosecution moved for a retrial. It turned out that they would end up waiting for like over a year for their trial to start. And that's when they were all being tried for first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder, which could carry the death penalty. But the prosecution didn't have any interest in pursuing that. Under the circumstances, Chris Wyant had pretty limited defense since he had been identified by his two co-defendants.

In late January, 1994, he was found guilty of second degree and guilty of conspiracy to commit first degree murder. And he was sentenced to 27 years in prison for each charge. But it was going to be served concurrently. He was released from prison in 2009 after serving a minimum of 15 years and he has lived out of the spotlight. Okay, out he goes.

Having been ordered for a new trial though, Theresa once again offered a self-defense argument. Her attorney, Arnold Levine, told the jury, she honestly believed she had no other alternative but to participate in this terrible act. In response to her defense, the judge ruled that the self-defense argument could be allowed, but only if Teresa was willing to admit the role she played in hiring her husband's killer, which she did.

The stipulation struck a lot of people in the legal community as weird and unusual. Law professor Stephen Goldstein told a reporter, I don't understand why she has to testify to it. Like saying that whether she testifies to her role or not, it wouldn't change the outcome. Right. And why are we making her say she has like this much of a role in it? Yeah. Especially when she really didn't.

Yeah, she was just told after the fact. She didn't do anything to stop it. But it's like, right. But I mean, like, she didn't really make her testify didn't. Yeah, she was just told after the fact. She didn't do anything to stop it. But it's like, are we really making her testify to that? But regardless of whether it was an appropriate stipulation, she did confess her role and offered the domestic abuse stories as her motive, all of which were backed up by testimony from her children and others who'd known her over the years.

All of them knew how he was with her. I mean, this is clearly an abusive man. He was literally on parole for killing his daughter's fiance. I was with her. I mean, this is clearly an abusive man. He was literally on parole for killing his daughter's fiance. I was going to say, I mean, hello. In the end, her defense was moderately successful. Although the jury did find her guilty, they all agreed the circumstances warranted a less charge, a lesser charge, and she was convicted of manslaughter and conspiracy to commit first

degree murder. It was the first time in Florida's history that a jury allowed, was allowed to consider self-defense in a case of contract murder. It was the first time in Florida's history that a jury allowed, was allowed to consider self-defense in a case of contract murder. Wow. So this is like, that's remarkable. After the verdict was read, the prosecution agreed that it was a successful compromise, calling it quote, a fair resolution of a very difficult issue. In August, a judge sentenced Teresa to 12 years in prison for her role in the murder, followed by five years of probation, and she was released from prison in 2000. Wow.

A few months later, Glenn Jr. was offered a plea deal in which he would confess to everything in exchange for the same sentence as his mother. But apparently, Teresa insisted he reject the offer and go to trial. Ugh, I don't know about that. As a result, he went on trial for first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. And after a very brief trial, they deliberated for just over an hour and found him guilty on both charges and sentenced him to 25 years to life for murder.

Why wouldn't you take a plea deal? Yeah. And when there's a charge of conspiracy and like capital murder and all that or not taking that deal. Yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't take that deal. But sadly, according to the Florida Department of Corrections, Glenn Jr. died on March 5th, 2014. Oh, but they didn't release any details regarding his death.

Oh, that's so sad. I know. So that is that's that's it. Like that's how it all shakes out. Wow, that's three. Like that's how it all shakes out. Wow, that's tragic. Two of the three ended up. Start to finish. They're out of jail, but Glenn Jr. passed away. Was he born with the condition?

No, because he was in his child. No, because he was Glenn's son. I didn't know if it was like complications from that maybe or something. No, they never released his death. That's really sad. It's a really sad, sad, sad situation from beginning to end. It just shows how dangerous it can be to... I hope everyone has been able to move forward from it in some way, shape, or form.

And there's been some growth somewhere. Yeah. And I hope those kids have been able to move forward from it because like, fuck. Like that's when I think it was when I think it was Donna or Deborah, one of them said that like they have no happy memories from childhood. How could they?

I'm like, that is horrible. That's so, so sad. Like how Donna loses the love, somebody she's in love with, her soon to be husband. And then had to be around that man again. And Glenn just like, Glenn, he lost his adult life because obviously again, he made a poor decision. He had no childhood and then lost his whole life after.

Like there's just no winners in this situation. He was trying to protect his mom. Well that's what breaks my heart is like, again, I don't think I have to keep saying it. No. We're not condoning murder or contract murder in any way, shape or form. But like, you just see the desperation in that kid,

especially the way he acted afterwards, where one, he tried to stop it. He tried to stop it all. And two, he went right to his mom and was like, I did something bad and like, I wanna stop this. It's like- And how desperate she was like, I want to stop this. It's like- And how desperate she was to not do anything to stop it. Yeah.

Fuck, that is a really sad case, dude. Yeah, bum me out in like a way I can't describe. Yeah, it's just like- I need to do something different for my next one. Yeah. Cause like this really bummed me out. Well, we have listener tales coming up, so that's good. Oh, there you go.

You guys will see, you'll be like bomb on my soul. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be good. Oh man. And Nicholas will be, will be on our next listener tales. Soothing to my fucking soul.

Maybe he'll be in a better mood. He better be. He was reading me for filth. But he'll make me feel better. Man. Oh man. I know. Go touch grass, everyone. Go tell...

Go touch grass. If you have a good parent, tell them how much you appreciate them for not being so fucking terrible. Yeah. And go like if you have, if you are a parent or if you just like love a child in your life. Go tell them that. Go be awesome to them. Yeah.

Go be a safe place for them. Yeah. And then go donate to like domestic violence causes. Yeah. And if you have parents that suck ass, I'm sorry. Yeah. Thank you. I'm going to go donate to like domestic violence causes. And if you have parents that suck ass, I'm sorry. Yeah, thank you. I'm sorry. Like mine didn't suck that bad.

That sucks. Yeah. And where I'm your parent. But you know what? Okay. If you're listening and your parents suck, I'm your parent now. You're one of the goobins. You're one of my goobins.

It's cool to know that you can break the cycle. I think that's a very empowering thing to lean on if you want to. No. And it shouldn't, it's not easy. So if it doesn't feel easy, that's okay. And it shouldn't be up to you. But sometimes it just works that way. People are gonna people.

People go on people. So there we go. God damn. Well, we hope you keep listening. We hope you do. We hope you., we hope you keep listening. We hope you do. We hope you, and we hope you keep it weird. Just not so weird that you abuse people you love. Keep your fucking hands to yourself.

Yeah. Stop hitting people. Don't get married if you don't like the person. Yeah. You know, we all have free will. Don't hurt people. Do good with your free will. Gosh darn it.

God damn. I'm going to go to the bathroom. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Hey, weirdos. If Ash and Alaina's episode on Ken McElroy left you wondering how someone could become so cruel, manipulative, and untouchable, you'll want to hear my psychological breakdown of this case on my podcast, Killer Psyche.

I examined the twisted mindset behind McElroy's reign of terror, how he exploited fear, used charm as a weapon, and turned an entire town into his victims. Understanding what made him tick is exactly the kind of insight I bring on Killer Psyche, where I use my experience profiling criminals for the FBI to uncover what drives people like Ken McElroy to become predators. So if you're curious about the mind behind the mayhem, join me for an inside look at the psychology of a man who got away with

everything until he didn't. Follow Killer Psyche on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.