Best Friend Killer: Angeles National Forest
00:02There is a saying that when a child is born, a parent's heart begins to walk around outside of their body.Their entire world shifts.And suddenly there is another person whose happiness, health, and safety becomes more important than their own.It's a level of love and vulnerability that's nearly impossible to understand until it's experienced.Parents spend years trying to keep their children safe while knowing that,eventually they will have to let them go out and experience the world for themselves.As kids get older, that means giving up more control and trusting that when they say they'll be home,they'll be home.
00:45So what happens when they aren't?Especially with teenagers, there's a terrible gray area between being pissed off and being terrifiedwhen they don't return on time.Maybe they're ignoring curfew, lost track of time, or somewhere they know they shouldn't be.A parent can spend hours cycling between anger and fear waiting for the phone to ring or the front door to open until eventually late becomes missing.Hundreds of thousands of children are reported missing in the United States every single year.In 2025 alone, more than 300,000 missing person entries involving children were made in the FBI National Database.For their parents, prior to that report can mean calling friends, searching neighborhoods,
01:33retracing their child's last movements, and eventually calling the police because they could no longer find them on their own.And then comes the waiting.Waiting for a phone call, waiting for an answer, waiting for their child to walk through the door.Sometimes that answer never comes, and sometimes when it does, it isn't the one they were desperately hoping for.On October 1st, 1985, 17-year-old Missy Avala left her home in California to spend a few hours with friends.She was laughing and joking as she headed out the door and told her mom Irene she'd be home later that evening and that she loved her.But Missy never returned, and just a few days later, her mother received the news that every parent fears.Welcome to National Park After Dark.
02:29Hey everyone, welcome back to National Park After Dark.My name's Danielle.And I'm Cassie.And this sounds like a really dark depressing episode.Right off the bat.Yeah, we're doing a true crime episode today, and it is a messed up.Just a warning for people.This story does involve violence against children and is really a tough episode.
03:07And it was a tough episode.It was hard.It was hard to read about in research.And it was at one point very, very well covered.And it happened in Angeles National Forest in California.So I wanted to tell it today for a couple of reasons.And one of those is that Missy's family has recently brought more attention to this case.So I will get into that more towards the end of the episode.
03:34But that is why I've chosen to tell it today.Okay.Well, timely.What's going on?Let's see.October.It's October.It is.
03:44It's spooky season.It's October 12th.If you're listening to this on the day it comes out.And I would bet a lot of money that my sister doesn't listen to this.But it's her birthday today.So, happy birthday, Alyssa, if you're listening.And if you're not, guess you'll never know that I've said happy birthday on my public platform.and that's a shame.
04:09It's a shame.You know, it's like when you're like, do you even know what your friend does for work?Yeah.The answer is no both ways.I know Alyssa knows I have a podcast.I don't think she listens.And I have no idea what she does for work.Really?
04:25I know she takes a lot of meetings.She takes a lot of meetings and she works from home.I think it might be marketing for who?I don't know.that's so funnyit's so funnybut I love herand I hope she has a great birthday
04:45and that's what mattersnot doing marketingand that's sistersbut anywayokay I just wanted to bringa little bit of levity before weget into a reallydark depressing episode but I'm ready now
04:59yeah can rub so funny if people are watching on YouTubeit's just like you can rub Gatorshbellylike while things aregetting sad he's like a little comfort dog he is this i don't know who enjoys the lola blanket moregator or me gator is obsessed with this lola blanket like it's his favorite thing in the world and i knowthey make dog beds so i think i might have to get him one for christmas that would be cute use our codeyeah truly like actually not an ad but kind of an ad but you can use our coat butYeah, if you want. Yeah. Anyway, okay. Yeah, he will be my comfort, my comfort gator.
05:43He's so cute. I can't stand it. His one back leg. It's just to the sky.Where's the other one, Gator?I don't know. All right. Well, let's get into the story. On October 4th, 1985, two hikers set out into the Big Tunga Canyon area of Angeles National Forest in Southern California.Although they were only a short drive from Los Angeles and the sprawling communities of the San Fernando Valley, this part of the forest felt far removed from the city below.Big Tahanga Canyon cuts deep through the San Gabriel Mountains with steep brush-covered slopes rising around a rocky creek that winds along the canyon floor.The hikers were near the remote Camp Colby area where a narrow road descended into a heavily wooded section of the canyon beside Big Tahunga Creek.Aspins grew along the water and large rocks were scattered throughout small clearings beside the creek.It was quiet and secluded, which was part of what drew hikers here, but it was also known as a place where local teenagers came to get away, drink, and party.
06:50As the two hikers made their way along the creek that day, they noticed something in the shallow water below.To their horror, they realized it was the body of a teenage girl lying face down in the creek pinned beneath a large.log. The log was roughly four feet long and weighed around 100 pounds. Beneath it was a small teenage girljust four feet 11 inches tall and weighing less than 100 pounds. Her arms had been bound behind her backand her long brown hair had been roughly hacked off in chunks with clumps of it scattered along thecreek bank. The heavy log had been positioned across her body holding her face beneath only a fewinches of water. The hikers immediately left to find a phone and call police. When investigators arrived,they began processing the creek and surrounding riverbank. Nearby were cigarettes, beer cans, and a pair
07:45of men's overalls. It didn't take long to identify the body as 17-year-old Michelle Yvette Avala,who went by Missy, from a purse with her student identification inside. Missy's mother, Irene Avila,had last seen her daughter on the afternoon of October 1st. Around 3.30 that afternoon,Missy's friend Laura Doyle arrived to pick her up in her car. Missy was in a good mood and she ran outof the house, laughing and joking with Laura. She told her mom that they were going to the park and that she'd beback later that evening by 8 p.m. but she would call her if she was running late. The last thingMissy told her mom before shutting the door behind her was that she loved her. However, just a fewA few hours later, around 6 p.m., Irene received a strange phone call. It was Laura asking if she could speak to Missy.
08:39Irene was confused. As far as she knew, Missy was with Laura. But Laura told her that she wasn't.She claimed she had dropped Missy off at Stonehurst Park in Arletta, the Los Angeles neighborhood where the Avala family lived while she went to get gas.According to Laura, as she drove away, Missy walked over to two young men sitting in a blue Chevy Camaro and started talking to them.When Laura returned to the park about 20 minutes later, Missy was gone and so were the two men in the blue Camaro.The phone call was unnerving for Irene, and when 8 p.m. came and went without any word from Missy, she began to really worry.As the night stretched on, Irene stayed awake with the front door unlocked waiting for her daughter to come home.By 2 o'clock in the morning, part of her was still thinking like the mother of a teenager who had broken her curfew.Missy was going to be in serious trouble when she finally walked through that door.
09:38But as more time passed, Irene's anger was being replaced by fear.She began to feel like something was seriously wrong.By the next morning, Missy still hadn't come home.Irene filed a missing person's report with police, and then she and Missy's brother began searching for her themselves.This was 1985, so it was long before cell phones or social media that could spread the word that a teenager was missing in the neighborhood.So the family went door to door through the neighborhood asking people if they had seen her or knew where she might have gone.But no one had seen her.For the next two days, Irene waited for any word about where her daughter had gone.
10:18Then, on October 4th, police arrived at the Avalos family home and broke the horrible news.Irene's agonizing scream could be heard throughout the neighborhood.Missy's funeral took place in one of the biggest churches in San Fernando Valley, and it wasabsolutely packed with grieving friends, family members, teachers, and classmates.Among them were Karen Severson and Laura Doyle, two of Missy's closest friends.The three girls had grown up together in the same Arletta neighborhood, attended the same schools, and were almost inseparable.One classmate described them as being like sisters.Karen and Missy were especially close.
11:01They had been best friends since they were eight years old when they met living down the street from one another.From then on, Karen was constantly at the Avala house, playing Barbies with Missy as children, and staying for dinner so often that Irene sometimes felt like she had five children.instead of four. At Missy's funeral, Karen was hysterical. She sobbed and clung to Irene,promising her that they were going to find whoever had done this. Laura sat beside Karen and criedwith her as Lady Starlight by the Scorpions, one of Missy's favorite songs played during the service.The police didn't have much to go on in their initial investigation. They knew Missy had beenmurdered sometime between leaving home on October 1st and the discovery of her body.three days later, but there were a few obvious clues pointing them towards who had done it.
11:52One of their only leads came from Laura, who told investigators the same story she had told Irene.She said that she had last seen Missy at Stonehurst Park in Arletta, where Missy had been talking to two young men and a blue Chevy Camaro.Laura said that when she returned from getting gas, Missy and the men were all gone.The problem was that there wasn't much investigators could do with that information.They didn't have the names of the men, a license plate, or much of a description beyond a blueCamaro.Police interviewed people in Missy's life and tried to reconstruct her final hours, but as the dayspassed, there was no arrest and no clear suspect was emerging.
12:32Just three days after the funeral, Karen moved into the Avala family's home to look afterIrene and helped find answers about what had happened to her best friend.She cooperated with investigators, passed along possible leads, and accompaniedneed Irene as they tried to push the investigation forward. But from Irene's perspective,nothing seemed to be happening. Neither her nor Karen or satisfied with the progress police were making,so they began taking matters into their own hands. At night, the two would drive around northernLos Angeles searching for blue Camaros. Whenever they spotted one, they would follow it and stop thedriver, sometimes getting out of their own car to confront them and demand to know whether they knew
13:14anything about Missy's murder. As Missy's best friend Karen settled into the Avala home,she became a constant presence in Irene's life. She ate dinner with the family and even slept inMissy's bed. She began drinking heavily as she struggled with the loss of her best friend,and she seemed increasingly consumed by the murder and the investigation. Karen covered the walls ofher room in the Avala house with newspaper clippings about Missy's case, following every update andsearching for anything that might bring them closer to an answer.She also visited Missy's grave several times a week, bringing flowers and handwritten letters to leavefor her. When Christmas arrived in 1985, only a few months after the murder, Karen brought a
14:00Christmas tree to the cemetery and placed it at Missy's grave. Karen even returned to Big Tunga Creek.Before it became the place where Missy's body was found, it had been somewhere that girls spent a lot of timetogether. Now, Karen went back to the creek where her best friend had been murdered. At one point,she even told Irene that she had seen Missy's ghost. For Irene, Karen's constant presence became asource of comfort. She had known Karen for nearly a decade and had watched her and Missy grow up together.Karen had spent so much of her childhood inside the Avala home that she had already felt like anothermember of the family. Now, with Irene's only daughter gone, Karen became almost like a surrogate daughterto her. Missy's other friend, Laura, wasn't nearly as close with the Avala family, but she also came by
14:52the house several times after Missy's death. She appeared deeply depressed and overwhelmed by whathad happened. At one point, Laura told Irene that she wanted to kill herself because she had been the lastperson to see Missy alive. Meanwhile, the investigation continued to stall. And for me, just likehearing this friendship and this dynamic, it reminds me so much of my own friendships and stuff growing up.Like I had a friend who lived right down the street, one of my best friends to this day, that I was likeintegrated in their family. And it's so hard to not imagine yourself in this situation with your ownbest friends of like if something happened to them what would I do would I like I would want to bethere for their parents I would want to see comfort in like this family that is my second family
15:42so a lot of when I was researching this I was really envisioning what I would be doing in thesituation if that ever happened to my childhood best friend in high school that you spend all ofyour time with especially during that time because you know as people now in our mid 30swho still have friends, you know, that we met back then and, like, have those experiences with.But our dynamics are different, you know, like in the present, we have families of our own orare moved away or just, you know, life happens.But being transported back to when you're 16, 17 years old, your friends are your wholelife.
16:24Truly.So just when something like this happens, it's devastating no matter what.but especially, especially at that point in time where your entire world is this smaller bubbleof those other people and those other friends and family.You know, it's just like it's your whole world.And when something like this happens, it shatters everything, not just a fragment of a largerlife that you're living as you're older.You know what I mean?
16:56Yeah.So.Yeah.For sure.Yeah, at this point in time when you're this age, I can see how it just absolutely rocks your world, especially because it's such a brutal.I mean, I know we kind of just skipped on by your description of how she was found by those hikers.And it's absolutely horrific.Yeah, it is.
17:20And brutal.So that layered on top of not only did someone die, someone was brutally killed.by another person or people, multiple people.And there's no answers.And there's no answers.So, yeah, there's just a lot going on here.So, of course, all of this is happening.And as the case remained unsolved, fear began spreading through Arletta.
17:42If police couldn't determine who had done this or why, other families had no way of knowing whether their own daughters might be in danger.People began wondering if there was a predator targeting teenage girls.Or perhaps even more frightening, whether misdainting.Missy had been killed by someone she knew.But there was other information that police had yet to fully connect to the case.Missy was the kind of girl people noticed.She was small, with light brown eyes and long, straight brown hair that fell down her back.She took a lot of pride in her hair and loved the attention it got her.
18:19Attention was something Missy received plenty of.She was pretty, charming, and popular, especially with boys.Her mom said there always seemed to be a boy coming.around to see her, and one of Missy's friends described her as having that it factor that naturallydrew people in. Of course, though, there was more to Missy than the attention she received. She wasknown for having a big heart, wanting to make people happy, and tending to see the best in everyone.She loved roller skating and spent weekends at an indoor rink with her friends, flying around therink and easily skating both forwards and backwards. Academically, she had once shown a lot of promise, too.
18:58school, Missy had been placed in classes for gifted children, but things began to change aftersixth grade when she, Karen and Laura, started skipping school more frequently and fell in with the olderkids who drank, partied, and used drugs. As Missy missed more classes, her grades began to slip,and the three girls developed reputations of their own. Laura was known for having an explosiveof personality and friends and classmates described behavior that could be intense and impulsive.On more than one occasion, she reportedly used a paperclip to carve the initials of whicheverboy she was dating into the palm of her hand.Oh, okay.
19:40I mean, I wrote it on a notebook, but that's another level.I committed and put, oh, you're so embarrassing.I can picture you, like, cutting their hair out and, like,cutting a lock of their hair and putting it in your journal.I didn't do that.That isn't embarrassing to me.Like the epitome of like love and like devotion, which is creepy and weird to some.But remember the whole Angelia Jolie, Billy Bob Thornton like blood in necklaces situation?
20:15Yeah.Oh.If I could find someone to do that with.Yeah.I would.Like, I think that's so romantic.Romantic, yeah.I almost said sexy, but okay, anyway.
20:30But back to the embarrassing, what I think is embarrassing, is when I was a senior in high school,I put the initials of my boyfriend in my senior, like, under my photo.Oh, no, to live there forever.Forever and ever and ever.I know.I want to see it.And since then, I don't post people.I don't, I mean, Ian, obviously.
20:57And only if I really think about it, I posted stuff with Ian and everything like here and there, you know, like on my story and whatever.I mean, we were together for years.But like, all his in-grid posts happened after he died.Like, I'm not.It's like, I was private before.Yes.Like, I just, after I did that in my yearbook, I'm like,No one's getting a permanent place until like some real shit or serious shit happens.
21:24You scarred yourself real young.Like that didn't work out.I could never be public about a relationship again.No.No, it's just like, I don't know.There's something about being private that I really value.And I learned my lesson when I was 17.But I don't even have my yearbook.
21:41I don't think.Maybe my mom does.But I bet it's lying around somewhere.So now that I'm kind of circling back on everything that I'm.just said when you said she was carving the initials into her hand but i also in the same breath waslike i would wear somebody's blood around my neck i know it's kind of similar it's confusingi'm aware i wouldn't yeah i don't know it's like that sounds normal 17 yeah it's not normalthey're like 16 17 years old at this yeah no no i don't know i don't
22:20don't like that. Yeah. I definitely didn't self-mutilate myself for the boys initial.Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes.A fad to some, the future of money to others. We see crypto's trillion dollar swings. The end of jobsor the end of human struggle. We see the endless funds fueling the AI hype while others follow. While othersthe noise, we follow the money.Learn more at Bloomberg.com.Well, going back into their personalities, Karen could also be loud and confrontationalwith the tendency to run her mouth and start fights.
23:14Missy could certainly get into trouble alongside them, but she was generally less boisterousand confrontational than her two friends, and as the girls got older, those differencesbegan complicating their friendship.Laura sometimes felt like an unwanted third wheel because of how close Missy and Karen were,while Karen could be extremely possessive of Missy and jealous whenever her best friend gave her attention to someone else.Ooh.Oh.Not a good dynamic.
23:43Sometimes the girls escaped everything by leaving the city.They would drive up the winding roads into Angeles National Forest and spend time along the Big Tahunga Creek,often parking at Vogel Flats, a remote picnic and recreation area surrounded by steep forestedmountain slopes. The site sat beside the creek and open clearings, scatter trees, and rough pull-offareas where visitors could park, drink, and spend the afternoon away from the city.It was one of their favorite places to go when they skipped class. They could drink beer,hang out along the water, and carve their names alongside the names of their boyfriends into theAspen trees, one of those carvings read 85, Randy and Karen, while another nearby, read Missy and Karen forever.
24:28But by high school, that forever friendship was becoming increasingly complicated.Missy and Karen were still incredibly close, but they were also fighting more.And their truancy and involvement with drugs eventually resulted in both girls being sent to a continuation high school, while Laura remained at the traditional public school.At the same time, Missy's popularity continued to grow, and so did Karen's jealousy.During their sophomore year, a rumor began circulating that Missy was sleeping with boys at school who already had girlfriends.Eventually, some of those girlfriends had heard what was being said, and one afternoon, a group of girls led by a teenager named Sonia Bonn, waited for Missy outside of school, and badly beat her.Missy insisted that the rumors weren't true and wanted nothing to do with the conflict, but the assault became serious enough to result in court proceedings.Missy was scheduled to testify against the girls on October 8, 1985, just one week after the day that she was murdered.
25:35Oh, no.The rumors about Missy and the other girl's boyfriends didn't disappear, and they eventually began causing problems much closer to home.At the beginning of her junior year, Missy started dating an older boy named Randy,but the relationship only lasted about a month before she became frustrated with his constantdrinking and partying and broke things off.Soon afterwards, Karen began dating Randy instead, and their relationship became serious quickly.Within about a month, Karen and Randy were living together.But Randy apparently wasn't completely over Missy, even though he was now dating her best
26:15friend, he continued flirting with Missy, who repeatedly turned him down. Eventually, Missy decidedKaren needed to know what her boyfriend was doing and told her about Randy's behavior. Instead ofbecoming angry with Randy, however, Karen became angry with Missy and accused her best friend of leadinghim on and trying to steal him away. Oh my God, I just, I really hate thinking about high school.I really hate this time. I don't know. I just for me personally, I do not miss this time of my life.And I can just so easily be transported back to this type of, I've never been in this exact situation, but I've been near enough to it to remember the feelings of like this whole, all of these rumors and flirting and the guys and like having strife with girls.and misunderstandings and just, I don't know.I just, I'm so glad that I am 20 years past that.
27:23I agree.I mean, I definitely had conflicts with my friends over guys.Yeah.It was, you look back on it now and it's stupid.You never mess up your friendships over men, ladies.But you learn that as you get older.High school is a hard time.And also feeling like, I don't know,
27:40I just, you're painting the picture of two people.or three, I guess, that were close at one point when they were children.And as they're entering young adulthood, are realizing that maybe they're just growing apart.But instead of just having that happen, you just try and like hold on to these friendshipsbecause you've for maybe just the fact that you've just had them forever.So why not?Instead of recognizing that, hey, we're just becoming different people.and it's okay to, you know, kind of just go on our own paths.
28:19Yeah.But it's a lot of drama.Instead of that, yeah, there's just a lot of frustration and drama brewing.I don't like where this is going.I don't like where this is going at all.I mean, we already started in a bad place.Yeah.And it's just unfolding for all the other bad things that were happening.
28:40Around the same time, the old rumors began circulating again that Missy wassleeping with other girls' boyfriends. By mid-September, the tension had grown serious enough thatKaren and Laura confronted her about what they had been hearing. Missy denied it and insisted she wouldnever betray them in that way, reassuring both girls that they were her very best friends.What Missy didn't know was that Karen herself had apparently played a role in spreading the rumors,both that year and the year before. For about a week after the confrontation, the friendship fractured,and Karen and Laura barely spoke to Missy.Then, not long before October 1st, both girls reached out and said that they wanted to put everything behind them.
29:24Karen apologized for the way she had allowed her jealousy to escalate the situation,and Missy, who was quick to forgive and eager to have her friends back, accepted the apology.The three girls reconciled and quickly began spending time together again.They had only just repaired their friendship on the afternoon of October 1st,when Laura arrived at the Avala House and asked Missy if she wanted to go to the park.None of this information seemed pertinent enough to the case at the time, though,to connect the girls to Missy's murder and the police remained unsuspecting of them.However, that was all about to change.
30:03Almost two years after Missy's death, there was finally a major development.In September, 1987, Karen contacted Irene Missy's mother and told her that,she had gotten Laura to admit that she hadn't been telling the truth about the night Missy disappeared.The mysterious men in the Blue Camaro apparently hadn't existed after all, and Laura was finallywilling to tell police what had really happened. Karen, Irene, and Laura went to the policestation together where Laura changed the story she had maintained for nearly two years. This time,she claimed she hadn't left Missy at Stonehurst Park with two strange men. Instead, she said she had drivenMissy to the parking lot of Grace Community Church because Missy was supposed to meet a drug dealer there.
30:55According to Laura, Missy owed the man $500 for cocaine, and she had left her in the parking lotbecause the dealer was going to give Missy a ride home. Laura claimed she had lied because she hadn'twanted to damage her dead friend's reputation by revealing that Missy had been involved withdrugs. For investigators, the admission was both promising and incredibly frustrating. The Blue Camarohad been one of their primary leads since the beginning, and now they knew they had spentnearly two years chasing a story that wasn't true. By this point, investigators were suspiciousof both Laura and Karen and believe the girls might know more about Missy's final hours thanthey were admitting. But suspicion was in evidence, and they had nothing that connected either girl
31:45to Missy's murder or gave them enough reason to treat them as suspects. So police followed the newlead they did have. They began looking for the supposed drug dealer Missy owed money toand questioning people involved in the local drug scene who might have had some connection to her.But this lead ultimately went nowhere to. The potential suspects police identified eitherhad alibis or couldn't be connected to Missy's murder. By the summer of 1988, nearly three yearshad passed since Missy's body was discovered, but the leads had dried up and Missy's case was effectivelycold. Then, on June 26, 1988, 1988, another one of Missy's friends finally came forward withinformation that would change everything. Her name was Eva Chorumbola, a former class. A former class
32:38classmate of Missy, who by this point was also Karen's roommate. Eva had known Missy since they werearound 10 years old and knew the Avila family well, but after Missy's murder, she had kept her distance.She hadn't even attended her funeral. For nearly three years, Eva had been keeping a secret.She was terrified of what might happen to her if she told anyone what she knew, and she believed her ownlife could be in danger. But in 1988, Eva's 18-year-old brother died by suicide and experiencingthat loss within her own family forced her to think about the grief Irene had been living withsince Missy's murder. Eventually, Eva decided she couldn't keep quiet anymore. She went to the Los AngelesCounty Sheriff's Department and told investigators that she had been with Missy, Karen, and Laura,
33:33the day that Missy went missing.This was huge new information.Laura had always been part of the timelinebecause she was the person who picked Missy up from home that afternoon.But Karen had never been connected to Missy on the day that she disappeared.According to Eva, she had driven with Karen to Stonehurst Park that afternoonwhere they met Laura and Missy, who were sitting together in Laura's car.Soon afterwards, Laura pulled out of the park.
34:03lot with Missy still beside her, while Karen and Eva followed in a second car. As they drovetowards Angeles National Forest, Karen told Eva that she and Laura planned to scare Missy because of whatshe said was her promiscuous behavior. Eva didn't know exactly what they had planned or how farthey intended to take it. The two cars eventually pulled into a dirt parking area near the creekin Colby Canyon, a place all the girls were familiar with. Once they were out of the car,the real reason for the trip became clear. Karen and Laura began confronting Missy about theboys she had been supposedly been sleeping with, and Missy became increasingly distraught as herfriends berated her. Laura specifically accused Missy of sleeping with her boyfriend Victor,
34:53Vicamaya, while Karen's anger centered around Randy Fernandez, who Missy had been datingbefore Karen. Missy was still inside the car crying when Laura grabbed her by the wrist and told herher that they were going for a walk. The four girls made their way roughly 100 to 200 yards down a pathtowards Big Tahunga Creek, with Karen and Laura continuing to scream at Missy along the way. At one point,Laura grabbed Missy by her long hair while accusing her of sleeping with Vic and she and Karen took turnscutting it off with a knife and bounding her hands behind her back.Oh my God.When they reached the creek, Laura stepped into the shallow water and told Missy to come with her.
35:39Karen pushed Missy towards the creek and Laura grabbed her by the wrist and pulled her into the water.That was when Eva became frightened enough to run.She turned and headed back up the trail towards the car, leaving the other three girls beside the creek.As she made her way back towards the parking area, she could hear Missy screaming for helpsounding as though she was gasping for air.A few minutes later, Karen appeared at the parking lot.She told Eva they needed to hide or cover Missy's body, then got into the car and droveaway.
36:13Laura returned shortly afterwards, wet from the creek.Eva got into the car with her and Laura told her that she and Karen had killed Missy.Eva asked if she was sure Missy was dead.Laura said that she was and said Missy deserved what had happened to her because she had slept with her boyfriend.It wasn't until later that Eva learned what had happened after she ran back towards the parking lot.Karen and Laura forced Missy face down into the shallow water.The creek was only around eight inches deep, shallow enough that Missy could have easily lifted her head above the surface if she hadn't been found.forcibly held down. Karen and Laura held her there as she struggled to break free. At one point,
37:00Missy managed to get her head above the water and scream, which was likely the cry Eva heard as shecontinued running away. But the girls forced her head back beneath the surface and continuedholding her there until eventually Missy stopped struggling. Karen then noticed a large log nearbyand kicked at it until it became dislodged.Together, she and Laura maneuvered the heavy log onto Missy's body,positioning it across her upper back and neck to keep her face submerged in the creek.They left her there beneath the log and made their way back towards the parking lot.By the time Karen reached the cars, Eva was waiting there.
37:42Karen got into her own car and drove away, leaving Eva to ride back with Laura.and it was during that ride, of course, that Laura had confirmed what Eva had already feared had happened, that she and Karen had killed Missy.Eva's account left investigators with an unavoidable question.Why hadn't she done anything to stop it?Eva admitted that she didn't have an explanation.She only knew that she wished she had.Oh my God, Cassie.can we just take a moment because that is so disturbing and heartbreaking and just like it makes me want to cry
38:25you know because it's like missy just thinking that she's in the company of two people friends that she trustedand to have them turn on her in such a horrific way and to fight for your life.life like that over something that's so stupid.Like it's so stupid, so trivial.You know, it's just, it's like really disturbing.And even like going after just a small detail in the grander scheme of things, but hackingher hair off and like the detail that you shared earlier about how she was so proud of itand how like it was a big part of who she was like in her identity and probably
39:15what, you know, attracted a lot of people to her. And they, like, went after that specifically.It was like these two girls who were supposedly her best friends had this secret, like,hatred and jealousy towards her. And then in those final moments of her life, took that out onher even more. And it's just, this whole story is so horrific. And again, like I said earlier,I can't help but put myself in this situation with my own friend dynamic.And yeah, we had drama.Yeah, there were things that we said to each other that were unfriendly and not kind.And you look back and is awful.
39:57But the way that this escalated and how brutal and horrible this is.And like you said, you're your best friends.You're out doing something you have done for years together.And suddenly it turns like this and you're ganged up on.And then it's just like the manner of how they went about this and killed her is so disturbing.And what's even more fucked up?Well, not more fucked up.I don't think it can get worse.
40:30But just another aside of just like incredible is that Karen's fucking living with her mom.I know.Or at least was for a time.And has been helping with the investigation this entire time.Yeah.And has been, like, banging on blue Camaro doors, demanding information about her dead best friend and keeping up this facade.And becoming, like, this surrogate daughter.It's like, and she just to, what's her name?
41:06Sorry, Irene.Yeah.Oh, God.It's like, that is another level of.like so scary.Like not only are you capable of brutally murdering your best friend, which some people may belike, I snapped.It was this whole thing.
41:25You know, whatever claim.I don't know what she's going to claim or how this is going to shake out.But I can just see a world in which it's like I, you know, I wasn't in my right mind andyada, yada, yada, whatever.It's like, that goes out the window.The second now we learn that you're.living with her family and pretending it for like a long time.Yeah.
41:49And you look at like these details too.And this detail of where she has everything like newspaper clippings and everything up on the wall about this investigation.You look at it and before it was like she really wants to figure this out for her best friend.She's like taking things into her own hands.And now you look back on it.And it's like no, she was trying to keep like one step ahead in front of the investigation.and know everything that was going on to make sure fingers weren't being pointed at her.Oh my God. Okay. I'm going to continue because I just cannot even imagine Irene and her whole
42:25family's position. I mean, you said that she had siblings and all that. And to know that to come tofind out that one of her murderers is literally sleeping in her bed and you're feeding them andclothing them and hanging out. You guys are hugging and crying together. And, you guys are hugging and crying together.and talking about Missy and like all your memories together.Oh, God.It's sick.It's sick.It is sick.
42:51It's so messed up.Well, of course, Eva's account of what had happened that night completely changedthe direction of the investigation.And the following day on June 27, 1988, 1988, nearly three years after Missy was murdered,police arrested Karen Severson, who is now 20 years old, and Laura Doyle, who is 21.According to authorities, the motive behind Missy's murder was jealousy, specifically Karen and Laura's belief that Missy had been sleeping with both of their boyfriends.Okay, where are the boyfriends at?Are they going to pipe up and be like, that was, like, is anyone going to stand up for, like, and didn't you say Karen was contributing to spreading those rumors?
43:37Yeah, she was.She actually believed that or was she just using that as sort of like this reason?I don't know because she was jealous.I think that there's a possibility that like somewhere in her mind that she thought that this was true.From everything I have read, it doesn't seem like she was sleeping with either of their boyfriends.I didn't think that for a second.Yeah.And it was.
44:01Even if she was.Doesn't deserve that.No.Doesn't deserve that.I'm just like, and I'm not, I know it's probably, you know, neither here nor there, but I'm just like thinking about the guy.It's like, are you guys going to say anything?Like, clearly this is a huge rumor.It's being discussed and talked about your girlfriends are all up in a tizzy about it.
44:23It's clearly not a secret.So are you going to deny it?Well, it sounds like, especially for Randy, Randy was saying like, no, this is happening.It sounds like Randy kind of switched the script and was like, no, I'm not.flirting with her, like she's the one coming on to me.Oh, right, right.And, like, kind of, like, flipped it.Just, like, stupid teenage drama.
44:47Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Where some see heroes and others see egos.Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes.While others follow the noise, we follow the money.Learn more at Bloomberg.com.Well, the arrests of course.
45:13course were especially shocking because of how we just talked about, just how close Karen hadremained to the Avala family after Missy's death. By 1988, she was no longer living with them,but that did nothing to soften the blow for Irene. When she learned that Karen and Laura hadbeen arrested for her daughter's murder, Irene felt like someone had punched her in the stomach.She started walking towards her bedroom in a daze and passed out in the hallway. For nearlythree years Irene had trusted Karen completely. This was the girl who had grown up alongside Missyand had been welcomed into their home like another daughter. After Missy's death, Karen had comfortedIrene, slept in Missy's bed, visited her grave, help search for the Blue Camaros, and discuss
46:04possible suspects with the family. She had even suggested the names of people who might havekilled Missy, sending Irene and investigators looking in directions that ultimately went nowhere.Now, Irene began seeing all of that behavior very differently. In her mind, kind of what I hadmentioned earlier, Karen hadn't just been helping them search for the killer. She had been keepingherself one step ahead of everyone else and learning what the family and police knew aboutthe investigation. Yeah, she's not doing it out of concern or sympathy.Or empathy.It's just not get caught. It's, yeah, it's all selfish. And yeah.
46:46Of course, Irene couldn't understand how someone who had been so deeply involved in her family's grief could have been hiding something like this.She said Karen had fooled everyone, including Irene's son and daughter-in-law, because they had all trusted her.Karen wasn't just Missy's friend to them. She had become a part of their family.The arrest threw Irene back into the trauma of losing Missy all over again.She stopped eating and sleeping and found herself unable to trust the people around her.Irene had known that Missy and Karen had argued over Karen's boyfriend Randy before Missy disappeared,and she knew Karen could be possessive and jealous of her daughter,but the girls had fought before, often over boys, and Irene had never imagined their teenage arguments could lead to murder.
47:39The arrests were only the beginning of what would become a long legal process.Laura had been 18 when Missy was killed, but Karen had only been 17, meaning prosecutors first had to go through juvenile court to determine whether they could both be tried as an adult.Karen was eventually ordered to stand trial as an adult, and both women pleaded not guilty to murder.Karen also faced charges of kidnapping, false imprisonment, and aiding in the commission of a felony after the fact.As the case moved toward trial, prosecutors began uncovering evidence that made the jealousy motive more compelling.Victor Amaya, Laura's former boyfriend, testified the weeks before Missy's death.Laura had confronted Missy outside his house after finding her there.Vic said Laura was furious and threatened to kill Missy before driving away.
48:35He hadn't taken that threat seriously at the time and never reported it to police.Vic also acknowledged that he and Missy had once had a sexual relationship,but said it had happened before he began dating Laura.The case finally went to trial in January 1990, more than four years after Missy's death.Eva became one of the prosecution's most important witnesses,placing Karen and Laura with Missy in Angeles National Forest and recounting what she had witnessedbefore running back towards the cars.The defense attacked Eva's credibility and argued that she had been more involved than she admitted,
49:17but prosecutors maintained that she had not participated in the murder and had finally comeforward because she could no longer live with what she knew.prosecutors asked the jury to convict Karen and Laura a first-degree murder arguing the trip into Angeles National Forest had been planned and that the girls intended to kill Missy.After a two-week trial and about four hours of deliberations, the jury agreed that Karen and Laura were responsible for Missy's death, but they weren't convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the murder had been premeditated.On January 31st, 1990, both women were convicted of second-degree murder.Irene was relieved to finally see the two women held responsible for her daughter's death,but she was disappointed that the jury rejected first-degree murder.For her, there was no verdict that could undo what had happened.
50:13Missy was still gone, and Irene had now learned, of course,that two girls her family had trusted had known the truth all along.On March 9th, Karen and Laura returned to court for sentencing.Irene asked the judges to impose the maximum punishment,describing the women as heartless and telling the court that their actions had shattered her life.The judge agreed that the violence of the crime warranted the maximum sentence for second-degree murderand sentenced both women to 15 years to life in state prison.Missy's murder and the extraordinary deception that followed,
50:51continued to attract attention long after the trial.In 1992, the story became the basis for the CBS television movie,a killer among friends.The filmmakers changed the character's names and took creative liberties with parts of the story,but the central premise remained the same.A grieving mother welcomed her daughter's best friend into their home,never realizing that the girl comforting her had helped kill her daughter.But while Missy's story was being retold on television, her family was still living the real consequences of what had happened.
51:29Karen and Laura's sentences of 15 years to life meant that neither woman was guaranteed to spend the rest of their life in prison,and as the years passed, the avlas would repeatedly find themselves fighting to keep them there.Karen became eligible for parole first, with her first hearing taking place in next year.1997, seven years after her conviction. Her request for parole was denied that year and again in 2001,2003, 2005, and 2009. Missy's mother and brothers continued showing up at the hearings, pleading forKaren to remain behind bars, and forcing themselves to revisit the details of Missy's murdereach time her release became a possibility. By Karen's six parole hearing in 2011,however, the Avala family was not there.
52:22This time, Karen was granted parole, and on December 9th, 2011, she walked out of prisonafter serving approximately 21 and a half years.Shortly after leaving prison, Karen published a memoir called I lived it, my life,in which she told her version of Missy's Murder and wrote about her years behind bars.Karen maintained that she was the only person who could tell her story.and began giving interviews about the case, including an appearance on Dr. Phil.Missy's mother and brothers were invited to appear alongside her, but they refused.And I actually watched this episode of Dr. Phil.
53:03It's on YouTube.You can still see it.And I mean, I'm sorry, but I watched it, and you cannot believe a word out of this woman's mouth.Even though the case has happened, even though she was convicted, Dr. Phil was like catching her in lies throughout thething and she she her version on this is that she went down to the creek with everybody but shewent back up with eva and that she left and she was not a part of it and that the whole thingwas laura is her version of it's like okay so long so laura drowned her single-handedly bound herhands behind her back, fought with her, totally overpowered her, and moved a giant log on top of
53:50her all by herself. Yeah. And well, in it too, Dr. Eva's just making everything up. And Eva made thiswhole thing up. Yeah. And she, it sounds like she tries to act like she was like Eva's, she was likeEva's character. She's like, oh, no, I was doing like whatever. But in it, there's a lot ofcontradictions because Dr. Phil, he's like talking to her. He's like, well, if you ran up, I thoughtyou just said you like pushed her in the water and I thought you just said this like if you ran uplike how were you still down here and she was just like not taking any accountability she saidshe never lived with missy's mother which is a bold face lie and she just the whole thingand I'll get into it a little bit more later but Laura says that she watched the interview and
54:41agrees that a lot of the stuff that she said was a lie on Dr. Phil.Oh, my God.I don't blame Missy's parents or family for not wanting to be anywhere near that woman.Yeah.And what they said is that they were not interested in doing the show that they would respondafter the fact.If she said anything that was untrue, they would give their response after the fact,but they had no interest in being in a room with her and having this conversation in real time.
55:11So during these appearances, while I mentioned like it feels like she's lying and you can't trust her, which I still believe, she did express some grief over Missy's death and at one point described the day that Missy died as the worst day of her life, while also placing much of the responsibility of what happened on Laura.In another interview, Karen continued to focus on the accusations they had made against Missy before her death,complaining that Missy knew what she had done but had never apologized.And she doubles down on it on Dr. Phil, too.She says she's promiscuous and that they had confronted her.And she even like, she goes, she's like, this was so hard.I was always Missy's bodyguard.I was always protecting her and blah, blah, blah.
55:58And I always was looking out for her.and this happened while I was there and I couldn't protect her because, again, she's maintaining she ran away during this, even though that is not true.For the Avala family, statements like these made Karen's expressions of remorse difficult to accept.It's like you feel bad, but you're also still saying she's a slut and promiscuous and that she deserved it in the same breath.So it's like, and not taking any accountability.Yeah.Then, of course, came another source of anger.Karen was making money by telling this story.
56:35Although her book I Lived It was not particularly successful,Karen retained at least some of the proceeds from the bookwhile saying that a portion would go towards an anti-bullying campaign.She also discussed plans for the book to be adapted into a movie.Karen defended publishing the memoir in part as a way of supporting herself after prisonwhere finding employment could be difficult,and she worked as a telemarketer after her release.She's like, well, what else am I supposed to do?
57:04I need to make money off of my best friend who I murdered.The idea that someone convicted of murdering Missy could potentially profit from the telling of that story of that murder caused outrage,particularly for the Avala family.Eventually, the controversy surrounding Karen's book would become about much more than one memoir or one murder case.In 2013, Karen published another memoir, Hope Beyond the Fences, this time under the name K. Crane,focusing largely on her life and faith while incarcerated.That book would eventually go out of print.For the Avala family, Karen's book wasn't just offensive.
57:48It exposed what they saw as a major problem in California law.Karen had served her prison sentence, been released, and was now free to sell her.her version of the murder book, documentary or movie without Missy's family necessarily even knowingthat a deal had been made. California had once had what was commonly known as a son of Sam lawdesigned to prevent convicted criminals from profiting from the stories of their crimes. But in 2002,the California Supreme Court struck the law down on First Amendment grounds. The governmentcouldn't prevent someone from writing or speaking about a crime because,that person had been convicted of committing it.
58:32So the Avalas began looking for another way to make sure victims and their families weren'tforgotten when those stories were sold.Missy's sister-in-law, Chavon Avala, became particularly involved in that fight.Working alongside Crime Victims Unit in California Assemblywoman Nora Campos, the familybegan advocating for new legislation that could protect victims without violating anoffender's right to free speech. Their goal wasn't to prevent Karen or any other convictedoffender from telling their story. They wanted to make sure victims and their families knew whensomeone was attempting to make money from the crime and had an opportunity to pursue that money
59:15through the courts. At the same time, the Avelas took Karen to court themselves. In March 2015,the family filed a civil lawsuit against Karen and others involved with distributing her bookaccusing her of profiting from Missy's murder and seeking damages that included claims of wrongful death and emotional stress.For the family, it wasn't about collecting money.Chavon explained that they wanted people to understand that as California law stood, crime could quite literally pay.Their campaign eventually became Assembly Bill 538, better known as Missy's Law.Rather than resurrecting the old son of Sam law, Missy's Law took a different approach.If a person or company entered into a financial contract with someone convicted of certain serious
01:00:07crimes to sell that story of the crime, the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitationhad to be notified.The state could then notify the victim or the victim's immediate family, giving them the chanceto take legal action rather than discovering a book.movie or documentary about their loved ones murder after it had already been released.The law also gave victims and their family more time to seek damages from offenders convictedof serious felonies, extending that relevant statute of limitations from 10 years to 15 yearsafter the offender was discharged from parole.
01:00:47In 2015, Governor Jerry Brown signed the legislation into law.30 years after Missy was murdered, her family's fight had changed California law.They couldn't stop Karen from telling her story and they couldn't undo what had happened to Missy,but they could make it harder for another victim's family to be blindsided the way that they had been.Laura Doyle was released from prison almost exactly one year after Karen in December 2012 after serving more than 22 years.Unlike Karen, Laura largely disappeared from public view after her release.She didn't publish a book, go on television, or immediately begin giving interviews about Missy's murder.And for years, she turned down reporters who approached her asking to tell her side of the story.
01:01:40Laura said she had no interest in making money from Missy's death or being seen as someone trying to capitalize on her murder.but Laura did eventually want to tell her story to one particular group of people, Missy's family.Laura said she had wanted to speak with the Avala's after leaving prison, but as a convictedoffender, she understood that she wasn't legally permitted to initiate contact with the victim'sfamily. That changed in 2015 when Missy's sister-in-law, Chavon Avala, reached out to Laura on Facebook.Laura responded quickly and agreed to talk and the two began having phone conversations that Chavonrecorded. In those conversations, Laura offered a version of the murder that differed in significantways from both Karen's account and some of what had been presented at trial.
01:02:34Laura said she believes Missy's murder was premeditated and that Karen intended to kill Missythat day, with or without her involvement. She also disputed Karen'sportrayal of events in her book, I Lived It, pointing out factual errors in the book,including Karen getting Laura's age wrong, and said Karen never consulted her before publishing it.Laura had also seen a killer among friends, watching it on a tiny television in prison with her bunkmate.She felt the movie was far more accurate than Karen's book, but still said it failed to capturethe full story or her actual place within the girl's friendship.One detail Laura felt was important was by the time Missy was murdered, she wasn't attending school with Karen and Missy anymore.
01:03:22Karen and Missy had been sent, as I mentioned before, to the continuation school, and she was at the public school, and that was not portrayed in the movie.So she kind of wanted to, like, say that that had happened.In the years since her release, Lauren has expressed remorse for what she did to Missy and has maintained that she doesn't want tofinancially benefit from telling the story.When she eventually agreed to speak about the murder, she framed her decision around theAvalas family's right to hear directly from her about what happened rather than selling her story.Those conversations also gave the Avalas something they had never really had before.The opportunity to ask one of the women responsible for Missy's death questions themselves.
01:04:10More than 30 years after Missy was driven into the Angeles National,Forest, with three girls she considered friends, her family could finally hear directly fromLaura about what she said happened that day. And now, some of those conversations are beingmade public. Chavon runs a YouTube channel called The Missy Avala Documentary, where the familyis currently releasing material connected to Missy's case, including portions of the phoneconversations Chavon recorded with Laura. Chavon and her son-in-law, Chris Myers, arealso working on a documentary called Deadly Betrayal, The Missy Avala Story,and the family has released a free preview on the project on YouTube.
01:04:53Through their work on the documentary, the family says they have uncovered new information,overlooked records, and firsthand accounts that add more context to the case many people assumedthey had already been fully told.More of Chavon's recorded conversations with Laura are also currently being releasedthrough that YouTube channel, allowing people to hear Laura discuss the murder on her own rolein her own words and for Chauvin to ask her questions. So even more than 40 years afterMissy's murder, her family is still working to understand exactly what happened to her.And perhaps, more importantly, making sure that this time Missy's story is being told
01:05:36by the people who loved her. And in the YouTube videos that they are creating,The end of each episode ends saying that this time Missy gets the last say and it's a voice recording of her.And that is my story.And that's happening right now?Right now.It's currently unfolding.New episodes are being released.So if people are interested, you can check it out on YouTube and you can support the family side of this story and it being told in a way that they want Missy's story.
01:06:11to be told.Good for that.I mean, the amount of hell that they've gone through and still have like persevered enoughall of these decades later to put something like this together is really admirable.And like the entire time you were talking about Karen saying, you know, writing this book,that book.you know, making these statements, doing these interviews.I almost wanted to be like, who fucking cares what you have to say?
01:06:48Yeah.Like, I don't, no one needs to hear from you or wants to hear from you.And why do you even have a space out here?Right.To speak of this, you know, like, at least for Laura, is it Laura or Lauren?Laura.Laura.You know, obviously terrible decision on her part.
01:07:10that day to be involved in like everything that she did to Missy and all of that it lives inits own space. But I do have to give her credit for her decision of basically just shutting hermouth and being like, I do not want to give statements. I don't want to be involved in this.Like, you know, to basically just be quiet and take accountability for what you did and take a backseat tothis and not put yourself in the spotlight like Karen did, you know? Yeah, and to be willing to speak tothe family. I mean, I imagine, I've listened to some of the tapes. And when you hear her speaking,she sounds really nervous. And she flat out says at the beginning, you know, I was really nervous tohave this conversation with you. She's like, I did something horrible. And to talk to you is like really
01:08:03terrifying. Yeah. And so to be giving this family answers and to allow them.to directly ask her questions, I think is the very least that she could do, but still is a bigthing that she doesn't have to be doing. And I think it does help give the family closure andanswers that they need to something that they've been hearing so much of. And I think alsospeaks to her character versus Karen, who has been trying to place the blame on Laura.And it's like, Laura is taking accountability. She's saying what happened. She's tellingthe story. Meanwhile, Karen is doing all this press and she's pointing fingers at Laura's sayingshe did it all and still not taking accountability. And also saying like kind of victim blaming
01:08:54with Missy and being like, yeah, well, she was sleeping with a boyfriend when I was 17 years oldand that's what happened. Essentially it was like she had it coming type of thing. Which is crazy.Crazy to say that. Especially to double down on.on 20 years later.After you've served time, you've been convicted,you've heard how awful the family has felt like you,and you lived with her mom.I know.
01:09:21Oh my God.You've fucking lived with her mom.Like, you are a sociopath.Like something is completely wrong over there.And yeah, so it's just awful.Well, I'll definitely be looking into those YouTube videosand we'll obviously post all the links and stuff.for everyone to do the same because I think that's a project that, I mean,
01:09:45I would imagine is healing in some way, shape, or form for the family.And a way to keep Missy story alive and like, don't forget that this happened.Don't forget about her.Yeah.Well, well, thank you for telling it, even though that was deeply disturbing and upsetting.It's probably, I would say, one of the worst stories I've told you.hold on this podcast.I agree.
01:10:12And I think it's also, it gives, in the beginning, I was kind of thinking drawing some parallelsto the slender man stabbings that case that I did because those two girls ganged up ontheir third friend.You know, they were like 12.Yeah.And their friend ultimately survived the attempt on her life.So it is slightly different.And the kind of the source of all of that.
01:10:40is different, but it's the same thing.It's like, and I think it kind of hits a little, I don't want to say close to home,but just as women who have had experiences similar to the origins of this whole thing,like we know what it's like to be a girl in high school is what I'm trying to say.It's hard.It's hard.It's just like.Oh, God.
01:11:08Yeah.Has this.been the trajectory of, I don't know, I know that there's kind of like a pack mentality that canhappen among friend groups. And especially when you're bullying someone, I feel like that candefinitely be heightened if you're in a group of other girls and you're all honing in on oneperson. I mean, we've seen it a lot. Yeah. I mean, I can remember seeing like some really awfulstories of like girls being beaten up by other girls and being ganged up on and just like reallyawful stuff that has happened. But there's just like this is just unheard of horrific and just
01:11:53everything that unfolded afterwards. Yeah. I mean, it takes it to a different level for sure,but just at its core, the themes of bullying and rumors and jealousy and all of that is just something Ithink a lot of people can relate to. And I'm not saying it doesn't also happen to young men,but as women, teenagers, young, you know, women, I just, it's something that's so prevalent.And I think a lot of people can either relate to or remember or were victims of and or perpetrators of.I mean, I'm not trying to say that like, I'm an angel over here. I'm sure that I contributed tosomebody's discomfort by saying something mean or being, you know, ganging up on somebody for some reason.And it's just like, it's just such a, like I said, circling back.
01:12:48I'm so glad that that time is over.Because it was rough for, you know, it's a rough time in a lot of people's lives.And it's just really, really awful about Missy's life.was ended over something that didn't have to be taken that far, you know, but was.Yeah. And I mean, in the big scheme of things didn't even matter. You know. And I hate to say thatbecause it's like, I know it didn't matter, but she was still brutally killed over it. So it didlike cold me and something. But it doesn't matter. Yeah. It's just so. It doesn't matter. It's a stupidhigh school relationship. It's going to move on. And I think one of the things about being in high
01:13:33school is you feel like that's your whole world and you're always going to be there and this is lifeand that's just not true. You know, there's so much world in life beyond high school and that'shard to feel when you're in it. But I mean, I look back at my relationships I had in high school andI had boyfriends like cheat on me or flirting with other girls in class or whatever. I don'tgive a shit about them anymore. Nothing. Who? Who are you? I don't even remember your middle name anymore.Like, I don't know.It's just, like, it truly, like, if anyone is in a situation where you are, like, feeling like this is going to be your whole world forever.Like, it's truly not life moves on and you don't have to hone in on something so trivial.
01:14:22Yeah.Okay.Well, once again, here I am with no positive whatever.we do. Fun fact, pallet cleanse or whatever we've been doing for on and off for years.I have something nice. I have something nice. Someone did something nice for me the other day and maybewe can make it like a pay it forward kind of thing. I was at the gas station and I went up and I was justlike buying some snacks and I went up and the person who had been in front of me, their card hadn'tworked and they had just like you know like tapped it and walked away and the guy was like hold on a
01:15:05second like i'll be right back and i didn't really realize what was happening in the moment he's like igot to go get that guy and i was like okay so he like ran out called after him and he came back inand he was like just let me get whatever she got to and i was like oh you don't have to do thatat all that's he's like no no no i caused you an inconvenience like let me just get all your stuff andyou know i have like a couple of drinks andmy hand. I always like with the dogs, I always get like, um, those cheese circles for them to givethem little snacks in the car and stuff. So like I got them stuff. I like, I had like a couple of things.And there I was like, no, no, no, no, it's totally fine. And he's like, no, no, no, I got it. He's like,
01:15:47just pay it forward. Do something for, do something nice for someone else. Oh. Have you done it yet?That's so nice. No, I haven't. But I will. Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, someone out there is about to get arandom act of kindness from Cassie.From me.Yeah.That movie wrecked me.Pay it forward.Yeah.
01:16:07That was...Talk about it in that one.Yeah.Let's go back to depressing things for a moment.Pay it forward.If you want to cry.Isn't, um, what's his face?Kevin Spacey, he was in it.
01:16:21Right?Oh, no.He was the teacher?Yeah.I know like something, he's bad now.But yeah, we didn't know that then.Yeah.Oh.
01:16:30It's like really bad.Yeah.Yeah.Come on.Kevin Spacey.Maybe don't watch Pay it Forward just in case to still getting paid off that movie.But the premise.If you have it on VHS or something, maybe rewatch it so he doesn't have it.
01:16:47He's not going to pay for that.Yeah.If you have a VHS.I bought Titanic on VHS like two months ago.Do you have a VHS?No.Well.I just want it.
01:17:01I mean,I can go buy it.It's two VHSs.Yes, of course.Because it's like halfway.I remember that.Of course.I had to get a new copy because my original copy was according to my mom.
01:17:13And I don't know if I really believe this.I could believe it.But like, I don't know if it's accurate or not.But she said she years ago had to throw it out because I had watched it so much thatthe tapes wore out.Like, I feel like that's not true.You just didn't want it anymore.She's like, I got to get her to stop watching this movie.
01:17:40But I did watch it a lot.So, like, I could believe it, but I just feel like that was, I wasn't that.Either way, it's funny.Either way.If you wore out of VHS, that's hilarious.And it's also hilarious if your mom was just, like, sick of hearing it in the background.It's just like tossed.She's like, I.
01:17:58It's like she's got to stop watching this.It's got to go.Yeah.All right.Well, that's great.She's just like hearing that song in the background all the time and she's like, turn it the fuck off.I follow this guy on Instagram.God, what is his name?
01:18:18He's, it's strange.He's a Titanic fan underscore 97.He's the world's largest collector of Titanic.on VHS.Wow.And he has a room, or maybe it's now his whole house, that's wall-to-wall, Titanic.Oh, my camera just died.It's a sign we should stop talking about this.
01:18:44But it's wall-to-wall Titanic VHSs.That's crazy.And people send them to him.Like he has his PO box listed.So he collects them, but also people send him.VHS. He's not getting my copy. That's for sure. No, that's, that's mine. I don't have to hold on to that. But yeah, and he's, she's a little eccentric, to say the least. But, you know what? I get the Titanic obsession, so can't knock him.Well, maybe that's where my mom sent. That's how this whole collection began. Maybe he does have one of yours.In his walls.
01:19:26It's walls.Okay, all right.Let's get out of here.Thanks for sharing your story.Thanks, everyone, for listening.We will see you next week.In the meantime, enjoy the view.But watch you're back.
01:19:40Bye.Bye.Thanks for joining us for another episode.We hope you learn something new and have another location to put on your list.If you want more MPAD content, make sure to follow along with our adventures on all socials at National Park After Dark.For more stories just like this one, with the added bonus of exclusive content, you can join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions.If you prefer to watch our episodes, head over to our YouTube channel.And if you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform.
01:20:13Where some see heroes and others see egos.Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes.While others follow the noise, we follow the money.Learn more at Bloomberg.com.
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