NPR Music - How The Beatles made ‘Rubber Soul’ and broke up with their past

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

A super deluxe box set of The Beatles' legendary 1965 album Rubber Soul has just been released with brand new mixes, demos and outtakes that show The Beatles breaking up with the past, their fans and everything people knew and loved about the band. In this conversation with All Songs Considered host Robin Hilton, Giles Martin, the producer behind the new mixes and son of late Beatles producer George Martin, talks about why Rubber Soul was such a pivotal album for the band, how the music was changing, and why it sounds “reasonably bleak.”  Martin also explains how the AI tools he used to update the mixes work, how he preserved the original spirit of Rubber Soul and more.Tell us what you think with a review on Apple or Spotify wherever you listen to podcasts.Questions, comments, suggestions or feedback of any kind always welcome: [e-mail] public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

This episode of All Songs Considered comes to you from NPR Music. I'm Robin Hilton, and this week on the show, we're going to take a break from brand new music and talk about a legendary album that's been given a whole new life. Rubber Soul by the Beatles. A super deluxe box set of the 1965 album, Rubber Soul just came out, and it's got a lot of the stuff that you usually get with these sorts of things. You know, lots of previously unreleased outtops. takes and demos. There's a book of photos and essays about every track, but it's also got a completely

remixed version of the album, remixed, which means it sounds like nothing you've ever heard before from these songs. Giles Martin, son of the late Beatles producer George Martin, he's been working with the surviving members of the band to remix all of the Beatles albums. He started with Sergeant Peppers in 2017. He's done the White album, Abby Road, and some others. But when it came to the older recordings, like the ones on Rubber's Soul, there was a problem. All of the parts, the drums, the bass, guitars, the vocals, they very often were recorded on top of each other, or at the same time on a single track, which made it virtually impossible to remix. Then, while working on the Get Back documentary that came out in 2021, the director Peter Jackson spearheaded

the development of new tech that allowed him to strip out and separate all the different instruments and voices. It's kind of like if you took a cake and you unmixed all of the ingredients, separating the flour, sugar, and everything, so that you could remix it, rebake it, and make it taste better. Giles Martin first used this mind-blowing tech to remix the Beatles' Revolver album in 2022 and now with Rubber Soul. You know, a lot of people think Sergeant Pepper's, that album, was the big turning point for the Beatles, you know, when they took this massive, unimaginable creative leap. But really, it started with Rubber Soul. Up to this point in the band's run, they were still playing a lot of cover songs. They were touring.

and focused on stuff that they could play live. Beetlemania was in full swing, and they were feeling kind of done with it all. By the time they entered the studio to make Rubber Soul, they were ready to say goodbye to all of that and move in a whole new direction. So I sat down with Giles Martin to talk about the new mixes and what they reveal about this dramatic shift for the Beatles,

how the music was changing, and why Rubber Soul was one of the most significant turning points in the band's career. We're witnessing the invention of a different form music. That's what this is. It's the genesis of this creativity where, you know, the studio starts becoming an instrument, where there's a danger to things where other instruments can be used, you know, like, you know, the sitar famously, you know.

But at the time, it's just purely, you know, I think Ringo says, You know, if an elephant could sing, we'd probably bring it to the studios and try and record it in those days. It's amazing. And the pace they were working at was breathtaking. I think they play Shea Stadium in August. They get back to the UK. They record rubber soul in October, November, and it's out by December 3rd. Yeah, it took about a month in total, I think, yeah, which is, for them was a long time.

They didn't really make that many mistakes in the studios, and they knew what sounds they were making. They knew, and vocally they were so strong. So there's no reason to take too much time. And the pressure was really high, and the expectations were really high. I was reminded while reading the extensive liner notes in the book that's included in this deluxe version, you know, Paul said in a 65 interview that the hardest thing was just being who they were. And, you know, George said that the standards were cruelly high. Well, I mean, absolutely, absolutely.

The standards are cruelly high because of the expressions they put themselves. People think that recording artists or musicians are these sort of like peaceful hippies that wander around and going, oh, that's just lucky that happened. I wrote the song. There's a, there's much more deliberation. And the Beatles wanted to be, as John Lennon said, the topmost, the popermost. And they got there. They got there and they became the world's first stadium band, as you say at Shea Stadium. They became the biggest band in the world.

and they were the first real global band, you know, as far as, you know, traveling the world. Everywhere was Beatles, but it suffocated them and they rejected it. And they also, the demands were hard on them because they never wanted to do a sequel. They never wanted to sustain their success by doing the same thing. They always wanted to morph into something else. And that was the secret of their success. And that's why the music is so enduring. And that's why they're so sticky as a band for, for, for,

new generations because if you don't like a hard day's night, you might like something because they're two different bands. You don't like, and on the Rigby, you might like, you know, helter-skelter. You know, they're a, it's a fact, they're a fascinating bunch of artists that refuse to stand still. Well, I think you hear this in the outtakes that you included in the Super Deluxe version. There's one in particular, Day Tripper takes two and three. Well, it's called Day Tripper Takes Two and Three instrumental backing track. Where you hear this level of discipline and focus and kind of a seriousness that surprised me a little bit.

They're clearly pushing themselves and taking it very seriously. Like I've heard in a lot of other demos and not takes like in the revolver sessions where they're really laughing and joking and having fun. And there's some of that here, but just, yeah, a level of seriousness. Yeah, that's also Paul as well. I mean, that's Paul driving, you know. You know, and he does the same thing now. It's like he's extraordinary. I mean, you know, Ringo says, you know, we would never made the amount of animals we did. It wasn't for Paul phoning us up and going, come on.

But people often ask, they go, you know, what is the secret? What's the secret by the Beatles? No, is it, you know, is it Abbey Road or is it my dad? Is it, you know, is it the compressors they used or the desk? No, it's them. It's them in a room making a noise, and they're really good at it. And that's what this shows. I think Take 3 is the final master, actually.

I think they don't play it much more. You know, it's not like they get it down. They know what they're playing. They're rehearsed and they're disciplined. And you don't make that many records without being disciplined. That's going back. The pressure that was there was more on themselves than putting pressure on themselves. There's another moment on a track called Beatles Talk thing for yourself vocal overdubs

where you hear them working out the harmonies. We're going to close our eyes. Oh, where you're going to? Close our eyes. Okay, I think I might have it now. I know. I get something in my head, you know, and all the walls of Rome couldn't stop me.

You're right, pickled onion. This whole sequence in this track is nearly eight minutes long. It really struck me because one of the things that I've always marveled at when I listen to outtakes and things with the Beatles is how locked in and in sync they seem to be right out the gate like almost immediately. And I heard this and I thought, okay, this makes more sense. They're actually working this out here.

Well, that's right. I mean, they're working out quite quickly. I included this. People said to me, why do you include so much chat? And I go, because I think there's so much dehumanization in music now. There's so much like, you know, is it really people doing it? And actually, it often isn't, that's the answer, you know. And I think there's a beauty and a timelessness to the fact that you can hear the creator.

You can hear them getting things wrong and then getting things right and working out how they do it. And what goes into making these great records. And that's what is. it's, the way I, when I approach these box sets, it's a bit like, you know, I went around, right around a Rembrandt exhibition once, and there were pencil drawings of paintings. And I love that because you see, the pencil drawing wasn't as beautiful as the painting. And by no means it's take two and three of day trip as good as day trip, but it shows the pencil drawing that happened. You know, that's it's of the painting.

And I, and I think that sort of, it makes it more beautiful for me in understanding that it is just almost blood sweat and that makes it happen and not someone flicking a switch. And I love, that's why I love the conversation. I love the fact that people going from, there's no outtake, I think, in the White album, where, you know, George Z, or, you know, cheese and marmite sandwich or maybe it was a robot. Anyway, there's that sort of conversation where you just go,

oh, they're completely normal. They're having their cups of tea, and then they're going to do something that lasts beyond sort of 60, 70 years. And they never thought that would be the case. They didn't plan on. You know, when I growing up as a kid, my dad never thought the, the Beatles would be as revered as they are now.

Well, that's the thing when I listen to these outtakes. They've always seemed larger than life. And then you listen to these, and there are these really human moments where you realize, oh, right, these are young guys really trying to figure out very complicated music when the stakes are really, really high. And there's another moment on this same Beatles talk track where you hear from John, it's almost like a,

revealing almost a kind of vulnerability in him. I'm sorry, sometimes I feel less than useless of these sessions. I really do. Do you have any sense of what was going on there or why he would say that? Well, I think John was like that. I think that John was probably, you know, flicking from one to the other always.

And my dad always said that he never heard what was in his head. In fact, there's a famous story. My father hadn't spent a John for years and went to go and see him in the Dakota building. A month before he got shot. And John looked at my dad and said, you know what? I wish we could record everything again. He goes, but, you know, properly this time.

My dad said, well, how about strawberry fields? He goes, especially strawberry fields. Because it was never. My father was kind of not insulted because John wasn't blaming my dad for him. And so that was a reflex for him feeling useless. He never reached the peak that he thought he should be at, which is amazing. And that's what made them so great. Well, there's this incredible demo from John on this album,

lots of outtakes and demos we could play, but one that I think people will be talking about the most and wondering about the most. A song called Little Girl that not only was never released before, I don't even think it was even rumored to exist. Little girl, I've come to say that this has been a lovely day.

I love you. I love you. you let me tell you from the start that you have come and took my heart I love you no it wasn't it was found in like a on a real to reel by someone and we heard it and yeah it's beautiful I mean it's not like you know you understand that's the thing about these things it becomes it's not a good enough song to be on revolver you know, or double fancy or whatever it is. It's not, you know, it's not a,

but it's an artist at work and it's an unheard song. But yeah, it's kind of beautiful in its own way. Was there ever discussion about building it out or adding other parts from Paul or Ringo? No, no, it wasn't really that type of song. It wasn't like, you know, the trium of real love and free as a bird, and then the one I did was now and then. It is more of a sketch than those.

There must be countless demos like this. I haven't heard anything. else. People always wonder, like, you know, do you hold things back? Yeah. The way I see these projects is a bit like, you know, you go through everything and then when you work on something like a rubber soul, you're digging deep and you're trying to find a body of creativity that encompasses this point. So sometimes you on earth things. It's as simple as that. And this was on earth during that process. Well, I want to break down just what exactly it was that made rubber soul so special, what was changing with the band and how we hear it in this super

deluxe version of the album. One of those changes, and you mentioned this earlier, was just that they were discovering the power of the studio more. Yeah, I mean, they also, they were also talking to other artists about recordings. They were listening to Motown and listened to the sound of bass on records and hearing American records that sounded different from English records and trying to bring those techniques back to Abbey Road and an insistent on a level of high fidelity, if you like in recordings. They would push the engineers. You know, early records were capturing a live element of the band and put them onto disc. By Rob Sol, you're in a situation where you'd be recording things you wouldn't be able to play live. It's as simple as that. You know, there's

using instruments that you wouldn't take on tour and all that sort of stuff. It was, it became that sort of thing. I think of all of the studio effects that still blows my mind today is the infamous trick that they used to record the piano solo on In My Life. Well, that was actually just really my dad. It wasn't the Beatles. The Beatles went out for lunch. And what happened with that is that quite often the Beatles would record a song like in my life or, you know, drive my car or whatever from this.

And they'd leave a hole for a solo. And for this, they left the hole there. And he decided to write a baroque sort of baroque. sort of bark style solo. Now I think what happened because we have an organ demo of him playing on an organ which is very bark actually. We found this organ demo

which he never talked about funny enough whether he didn't even remember he did it. There's a version of it the organ. I think then what he did is he decided to record it on piano but he couldn't play the piano because it was too complicated or too fast to play. And so he played the time. tape at half speed. And playing the tape of

half speed means you'll actually just drop an octave. It's one of those nice quirks and maths in life. So he plays, played something at half TV, it'll be the same notes, but an octave down. So he played the whole thing an octave down at half speed and then sped up, and it ended up sounded like a harpsichord and a baroque solo. So you can tell it's sped up when you listen to it at the

very end of the solo, the rundown is kind of ridiculously fast. Well, I'm a piano player, and before I knew they did that trick, I used to listen to that song and think Somebody's a very good piano player to be able to... It's incredibly accurate, very crisp, and yeah, the timing is amazing. You listen to the organ version of the solo. That's your dad playing as well?

That's my dad playing, yeah. Yeah. And the bones are definitely there. Yeah. I was hoping you might release the half-speed recording. It exists, yeah? Yeah, it's funny. I did think about that.

I always try and put things on that you want to listen to more than once. That's the... That's fair. Yeah. Well, so another big change for them with Rubber Soul is how they were experimenting with instrumentation. They introduced new instruments. But, of course, the most famous edition is George's Citar. Once had a girl, or should I say, she once had me.

She's shown me her room. Isn't it good? Norwegian good. That came from the fact that they filmed Help before this. And on the set of Help, there was a sitar. And George saw the sitar and said, what's that? And they was like, you know, that's a sitar. And he went and bought one in a shop because it's like, you know, he's a guitar player.

And it's the first time he'd really played the sitar. And they had an idea of a solo. And they always wanted something different. And so what's what it became? And he was always very embarrassed about that sitar play. on Norwegian wood because, you know, as he didn't play the sitar and in the right way, you know, you know, it was important to him that he respected in your music and felt like he wasn't, but, you know, it's, you can't imagine the song without it. And what's interesting on the,

on the track list, and I think we're going to hear take one Norwegian wood, which is just John playing 12-string guitar and Paul singing and Ringo play some time. And you can see, hear the work progress that happens within the way the Beatles work. Let's hear the very first take, first version, first take no sitar. This bird has flown, take one. I'll just give you the last one. Tell me to work, one.

One, two, three, one, two, three. I once had a girl, or should I say, she once had me. She showed me her room, isn't it good? Norwegian wood. She asked me to stay,

and she told me to sit, honestly I'm struck by how close it is already and that's something I noticed with a lot of these outtakes yeah I think this is a time which the Beatles would have worked out I don't know when but they'd have worked out exactly what they wanted to do before they went in the room you know the studios they didn't have the luxury and people didn't anyway in those days people didn't have the luxury you know you know a lot of time in the shoes I think it took

Brian Wilson to break that mold in a way with pet sounds soon after this, you know, where he was like, you know, where's second, if Brian Wilson can spend a lot of time doing something, how come we can't spend that time? You know, generally it's that thing. Right. It just wasn't a thing that was done. People didn't go and spend ages recording. So they would be pretty much on what, knowing what they wanted to do before they went in.

I mean, you even noted that in some cases they were done by the third take. Yeah. I mean, I remember trying to go through the, after a take a payback writer, which of course is later on. But, you know, that's a take and a half, payback writer. So they played it half and they made a mistake and they played it fully and that's the record. Now, of course, they would have rehearsed it. You know, they would rehearse in the studios and they didn't record the rehearsals because they didn't want to waste tape or they wiped the rehearsals.

But they definitely label Take 1, Take 2, Take 3. So they're the first recording takes of these songs. Another thing I think that's interesting about Rubber Soul is that their songwriting is starting to get more adventurous. You know, one of the hallmarks of the band, I think, especially in their later recordings, is you can have multiple songs within songs within songs. And you start to hear that on this album, I think. Like, if you listen to Girl, Girl, she's the kind of girl who put you down when friends are there you feel. And we say she's looking good. She acts as if it's understood.

She's cool. Total mood shift, melodic shift. It feels like a totally different song for a second. And then they kind of come back to it. They're hints of where they were going. Yeah. And I think also they started writing songs about themselves and about how they felt about things.

It's actually an interesting album, Robert Slov. If you listen to lyrically, it's a lot about breakup and about disillusionment. Yeah. And I think actually maybe the breakup is with their fans to a certain degree. Oh, interesting. You know, it's not from me to you. It's not P.S. I love you or Can't Buy Me Love or. you know, eight days a week or any of these sort of slightly flippant songs, you know,

it's, it is the beginning of, you know, bittersweet in a way. You know, and it's it, there was an element of disillusionment within within themselves as well because, of course, they weren't enjoying themselves when they were, when they got to where they wanted to go, they found that they were in the wrong place as as simple as that. And so they started writing songs more about themselves and less about looking out. I mean, lyrically more nuanced, more complicated. Lots of innuendo on drive my car, Norwegian wood. Yeah.

Nowhere man's kind of bleak. He's a sitting in his nowhere land making all isn't he? Yeah. It's a reasonably bleak album. You know, to say, I'm looking through you, for example. I think it's an interesting title for a song. Yeah, or I'd rather see you dead little girl than be with another man. Well, yeah, don't even, yeah.

I mean, I mean, that kind of reminds me. a little bit of murder ballads or, you know. Yeah. So you can see where they're going with what they think of their pop psychology. It's interesting the way that the fans see them. There's that picture that we used in a love show, actually, of them dressed in their brown suits

and they're waving at the camera of the floor, and they're waving as about their camera. And they're actually, if you look in their eyes, they're actually waving goodbye. They're waving goodbye to Beatlemania. That's what they're doing. They're waving goodbye to that part of themselves wasn't going away. And I think Roblesol is

part of the beginning of like, wait a second. This letter I've received isn't quite right. This isn't the same hallmark postcard I got before. This isn't the same thing. This is something shifted. It's all okay in the house type of thing. That's what Roblesole is. Let's talk about the remixes. So like the Revolver remixes you did, the problem was that the original recordings were usually all mixed together on a single

track or four tracks and the only way to do the new stereo and Dolby Atmos mixes is with the technology that was developed for the Peter Jackson Get Back documentary. Yeah. Which allows you to demix the original songs and get all the different parts on their own tracks. Same deal here. Yeah, correct. Correct. This is, in fact, with the Peter Jackson, or what we did with that is that it was a lockdown

project and I was in my studios, the Dialogue editor who's called Emil D.E.L. Del Rey was working on separating guitar from dialogue because in Get Back, especially in Twickenham, there's a lot of people playing and talking at the same time. And I said to him, when a second, so you can take the guitar off her voice? And he said, yeah. And I said, well, okay, can you take the guitar off her voice in music? And he goes, yeah. And I said, well, can we then take the guitar off? Can we take, and it's sort of developed, can we do this? And we, you know, it's that sort of childlike mentality of, you know, can I have this please? And I actually sent him, bizarrely, because knowing what was coming down the pipe, I sent him

Taxman, which is a guitar, bass and drums all on one track. And I sent him in my life, just the single track, which is guitar, based and drums on one track. And I said, can you separate this into separate guitar, base and drums? And he did. And then I said, you know, can you set, now if I send you the drums back, can you set the kick drum from the snare drum? And we started, we developed it. It wasn't perfect. We developed it, and we developed it. And that's how that's the getting about. So now with, yes, with Revolver, and you can hear it on the album where a lot of vocals are on one side and a band on the other. Well, let's hear before and after. This is the original version, the 65 version

of the song, The Word. And now the new stereo mix. This, what we've done here, releases that. It releases that. It means that it's a more natural sound field. It means you're listening to headphones, the voice in the middle, and all these things. So, so yeah, I'm really proud of There's a lot of care and attention that goes into these mixes. And I sort of listen to the mono, which the band were present for, and what their nuance was, what their preferences were. Listen to the stereo my dad didn't try and come up with something that is rubber soul. And it's only when you go back and listen and compare,

you may notice it's different. I never want people to listen to my mix. I want people to listen to their songs. I know that Paul set in on some of the remixes for Revolver. Was he there for this one as well? Yeah. I mean, he's involved in him and Ringo and Danny Harrison and Olivia Harris and certainly

Sean Lennon. They are very much involved. You know, they're my bosses. People go, it's not the, I don't have to deal with any A&R people or marketing teams or anything like that, which is nice. But it's their record. And they ask me to do it and they have to approve it. Now, I have the privilege of, say, sitting with Paul and listening to Rubber Soul. And he probably hasn't listened to that album. maybe since he made it.

But he remembers everything. And he remembers time is a great thing, but he remembers more so the collaboration. And he's very protective over, say, a guitar part that George has or what John does or what Ringo does. That's what we talk about, everything else. He goes, you know, is this loud enough? Is this good enough?

Whatever it is. It's pushing the boundaries there. Well, you talk about keeping the spirit of that time alive. I was going to ask you how you balance these new mixes with the fact that they do capture and document a time and a place, you know, how you balance that with making them current and more like something you'd hear in a modern mix.

I don't really think about current. I don't think about that at all. I don't think about technologies because people say, do you listen to your mix for laptops or phones or headphones or whatever? I go, no, because they change. Everyone changes stuff, you know. So it sounds so stupid, but I just do just try and make it.

sound could. And the other funny thing is quite a make it sound how you remember it, because music's never how you remember it. I did a thing, actually when I did the Martin Scorsese documentary on George Harrison, I heard from some of his people that he didn't like my, he didn't like the idea that I was going to be remixing the songs because he loved the songs, he loves George Harrison. And then I got a call for him,

Lever Harrison, saying he wasn't happy with the sound of the songs in the film. And I said, well, listen, don't blame me because you asked me not to do nothing. I mean, myself and Martin Scorsesee said he met in London and I played him All Things Must Pass which opened the movie and he goes this is the one I like this is the one I like this is the version

I said well that's not the record the record's the one you don't like you know because that's the thing we fill in the blanks I also believe you can be you know listening to something that sounds terrible with someone you love and it sounds the best thing ever but I do think that it's that thing where you just go

I love this song and that's my basis for everything it's not I love the song because it sounds modern. I love the song because the kick drum hits me in the chest. You know, it's all based on emotion. I remember when I first heard the new mixes, when you started doing these with Sergeant Peppers, the very first one that you released,

I actually got teary-eyed listening because it sounded like a brand-new album just released from a band that was still young and together and putting out new music. Well, that's my... I'm really happy I was about it. so you burst of blood, tears, you give me what I'd done to the Beatles. When I'm working on these albums, for me, I'm not, I'm working with, I am working on a bunch of 25-year-olds.

I'm not working with a band that doesn't exist. I'm in a room and, listen, music doesn't get old. We just get old around music. That's the truth. A recording is essentially time travel. That record, that tape sounds the same now as it did the day after they recorded it. And that's the beauty of it. So yeah, one of the things I try and do, and sometimes I use technology to do it,

is to try and remove technology from a record. So, you know, some of the constraints they have, say, using a four-track tape machine where you've got everything on one track is not a natural way to listen to a band. You listen to a band with a drum in the middle, say, and the guitar aside the side or whatever it is. And so I try and make you feel as though you're closer to the band. And by being close to the band, you can feel the energy and you can feel, the way the band is

and yeah, I'm so happy that's your reaction because that's the intent. Let's hear another remix, A.B., the first version and the new version. This is, I'm Looking Through You, the original version. And here's the remix version. Yeah, acoustic guitars is always tough and there's not much going on with it. And it's also one of those things where, you know, the rhythm,

track is thigh slapping on it. And you can't have that too loud and you can't have that, you know, too present. And so it's that balance of giving the right sort of warmth. It's almost like you have to have to be careful with doing these things that you open things out too much. And it doesn't sound like an ensemble anymore. It doesn't sound like a piece. It doesn't sound. But people go, I can really hear that.

And you go, well, I kind of like, do I want you to really hear that? I had a thing once actually with when I was doing, with the demix thing, when I was doing here, there and everywhere for Revolver. There's Backingbrook's the very end of the song. And Paul's clicking his fingers. He's like, click his fingers while singing. And I'm going, I've never heard that before, but I've now got a finger clicking track,

which didn't exist before. What do I do with this finger click? It's like, and then I go back and listen to the record, and I'm suddenly hearing this finger click on the original watch, never heard before, and you're going, oh my God, it exists. It's that. You start going, so I'm looking through you.

I'm really happy the way it turns out. It sounds like I'm close to the bat, and that's what's what we're trying to do. You know, I think this demixing technology, it shows us, I think, how AI can be used for good. There are some really cool things, but the conversation about the use of AI and music, it has changed a lot and rapidly just in the last couple of years. You know, you even mentioned about how there's, we're seeing a lack of humanity. in music. I'm wondering where this demixing tech and using it on the Beatles catalog like this, where does it fit in the conversation for you? With AI, it's funny. I thought about this the other day and someone asked you about AI and I was like, well, you know, Pandora's box has been

well and truly opened. If there was a battle, if there was a question, like, would I rather not be able to demix things and all of AI and music be deleted? I'd go, yes, I'd like that very much. Right. Because I don't think the end result is that welcoming to me anyway as a person. I think that, you know, I've actually been over in Congress with the Grammys, the Grammy Foundation, talking about no-fakes bill, talking about, you know, ownership. And, you know, I'm, I feel like a bit like the man that kept the arm in the Terminator movie, you know, that caused the apocalypse because I've done more in AI.

and saw separation than anyone else has done and used this. And I think that we're in a danger of being able to copy humans without any recompense. My partner's a widow and her husband was an amazing keyboard player. And he used the guy who started Jamiroquai. Sadly died of cancer way too young. And for example, his name's Toby Smith. And for example, you could take his style of keyboard playing

and teach AI to create a Toby Smith. and then his kids and his family wouldn't, you know, and he would get no credit for that for what he created. And I think that's just the tip of the iceberg. So I, what I do is very different. You know, essentially what I'm doing is I'm doing restoration. And, you know, essentially my rules are as I have, you know, take out what's there. So it's a bit like a good, good example is now and then. Now and then, I mean, Paul, which you regret, Presta, I think, said we made a Beatles track using AI. Essentially, we had

a cassette recording of John then and I'm singing now and then on top of a piano, so I had a piano, background noise, TV and John's voice. And I ended up with separate to four separate tracks, which if you put them equally, they're exactly the same as what went in.

AI's not creating anything, I'm not making anything. I think the danger is when people don't know where creativity comes from. Or what the foundation the creativity is. It's a very long answer to the question because it's a very complicated subject.

But it's, I also think that humans will, humans will out. And I also think that you take some of rubber soul and the Beatles have endured because they go out of time and they go out of tune. And they,

you can feel the breasts against the microphone. You can, you can feel the emotion and the friendship and a room. And you can't create that on your own or with a computer. Well, that makes me think of, something that I noticed while reading the forward from John Lennon for the Super Deluxe.

I think it's pieced together from things that he has said about the album. And then there's a new introduction by Paul. There's something that kept coming up as I was reading through everything. And the first time I noticed it was in a note from John talking about how love was at the heart of this album, thematically. The word is love. And then it came up again, Paul talking about how Given the state of the world, he thinks people maybe need this album now more than ever. So I'm curious, what does Rubber Soul mean to you now, especially now with these new mixes, kind of giving it new life?

I think it's always fascinating to see people at the top of their game or hear people at the top of their game. And with the tools they had and the tools they had are really themselves. And, you know, yes, and maybe we do need a bit more love. of what we do need to spend. We spend so much time doing nothing these days. I always find it amazing. There's so many meetings and Zoom calls. And I always just say to someone, you know, go and listen to a record.

You know, just listen to the other day I've got, I'm involved with, you know, I'm involved with different speakers. I'm involved with Sonos, I'm head of sound for them. And I do it because I actually love the fact that I can help someone listen at home. There's a company called Ren Silver. I'm involved with me who make really nice turntable. and I have one at home and it arrived

and it's beautiful it's just like an old 1970s piece and we just put on a Stan Stangets record with the family and the kids and stuff and I had some cocktails and we just listened to records that night and it was just great

it was just that and Norm was on their phones and Norm was looking at stuff and I think that Robesol harks back to that time I'm not in the good old days because there's lots of bad stuff going on but I think that's what it is

I think it feels like that kind of record. Even the cover and the art feels like it feels earthy. It feels of a time where you should probably go for a walk without a phone and without any music. It feels like that. It's such a ridiculous and to say, but it's a record that reminds us of love, of breakup and heartbreak, but of what we can achieve as humans without the cyber world,

maybe telling us what we should be doing with our lives. We spend so much time doing nothing. I'm going to get that on a T-shirt. Yeah. Well, Giles, thank you so much for this. I really appreciate your time, and you've been very generous with it. Thank you. I've been so nice to chat.

I really enjoyed it. Thank you. That's Giles Martin, talking about the Beatles album Rubber Soul. It's just been released as a super deluxe version with brand new mixes, a book of photos, essays, so much more. You can see some of those photos and read highlights from this conversation online at npr.org. slash all songs. And you are listening to All Songs Considered from NPR Music.