Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Forget Baby Annabell, we want Baby Alan Ball

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

There's sunshine across the bay area in today's pod. Fi and producer Hannah have their 'Corporate Cathy' caps firmly on as they workshop the Off Air Christmas Catalogue - featuring everything from blow-dry shelters to s***-yourself salads. Plus, Fi speaks to retired doctor Richard Coker on his new book Timor Mortis. Our book club pick is a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri.  You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producers: Hannah Quinn and Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hannah has turned the podcast on. Welcome to Wednesday. It's a very sunshiny Wednesday. I always want to say whenever there's a weather forecast, something that includes the phrase across the Bay Area. Because whenever you see any American films or Australian films or TV stuff that feature a weather forecast, there's always somebody, and so something across the Bay Area.

Across the dry state area. Yeah. I mean, just all of that, just anything with a great big sweep of the hands. And of course we can't really do that in our very small series of connected nations and islands. Because if you just did a sweep, you know, outside, I mean, let's not start in London either

because we're very, very north-centric now and that's about time to. If you started in Manchester and just went across, you would have actually included several very, very different weather fronts that you'd then have to explain, wouldn't you? Yeah, very complicated. It is quite weird, Hannah, that we have so many different microclimates

across a very, very small piece of land with islands attached to it that are very different. I mean, Cornwall's weather is completely different to Inverness's weather, which again is very different to anything on the west coast of Ireland or all the way down to some of the Channel Islands.

It's bizarre, isn't it? It is. I don't know where the point is as well where it genuinely just starts raining constantly too. There is a point where you get far enough up the country and it is just rain, rain, rain, rain. And I say that with love. Do you?

And do you like the rain as a consequence of having experienced quite so much of it in your early years? can I just say you've not got the right hair for a lot of rain? I don't, I don't, yeah. I was actually just having a chat with Schengel about curly hair living. You have curly hair as well naturally, don't you? Yes, but it doesn't see the light of day. It gets very, very straightened.

Because I've shared with you the terrible picture. It's my graduation picture of me with my naturally curly hair. And it is like either King Charles or a King Charles Spaniel. It's not appealing. We view that photo very different. I love that photo. It's not going to happen, it's not going to happen.

You have very curly hair. My daughter has exactly your type of hair and rain is... No. It makes life very, very complicated. It does, especially if you have actually gone to the effort to blow dry it, that is just heartbreaking. I mean, when it's curly,

it turns to any kind of different texture, which is annoying, but it was already that texture. But if you have gone to that effort to smooth it out and then the rain, comes oh gosh i'm amazed because the the blow dry as well in your generation is such a thing i mean it really is it's a it's a part-time occupation the bouncy blow dry is it's yeah and it's very available as well in a way that it didn't used to be for us older people and you've got all of the products to make it happen all of that kind of jazz so it's a massive industry what doesn't

seem to have accompanied it is any kind of rain protection wear for the blow dry that has then been, shall we use the term, maxed. Maxed. Yeah. We need blow dry maxing. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't know, because I guess the only way to avoid having hair that's rainproof is chemicals,

getting it chemically straightened, which isn't fun because that's very damaging. Yeah, there is no. Because there should be some kind of huge shower cap thing that everybody is wearing, that's fashionable. Yeah, yep. There definitely should be. Yeah, and nobody's made it happen, which is weird, isn't it?

I think that would be an absolute winner. I tell you what, we should add that to the podcast merchandising. Oh my goodness, let's do it. Along with your shit yourself salads. Shit yourself salads. I mean, Hannah, it's only a matter of time. I know. Before that is on shelves at eye level in the supermarket.

It is. And do you know what? few people sent in the emails asking for a recipe, didn't they? They did. I do base mine off the M&S Superfood salad. So you can get that anywhere. It's the super nutty one. Just look at what they've got in there.

And that's what I put in mine. Okay. I think you could have milked that a bit more to show your own culinary creativity in a good light. Well, I do add some miso, actually, which I don't think they have in that. The dressing is miso. soy, rice vinegar, bit of honey,

bit of gotcha jam, I found feeling spicy. A bit of what? Gotchajang. What's gotcha jam? It's some kind of Korean spice and they do it in waitrose, in little pasts. And that's what I get.

Is that a kind of umami taste? I'm not sure. Or is it chilly? I think it's more chilly, it's more chilly, and then miso, is miso umami? Yes, yeah. Heavily umami. Inside it, we've got beans of all kinds,

kinoa, tahini, I don't know, whatever, whatever you want, go check the Eminus one. I don't really, I don't really know. I think what you should do is develop the shit yourself salad that is sold, you know, with a very nice, maybe even four-ply toilet roll. Oh, yeah.

Oh my goodness, that would be brilliant. Yeah. Oh, very commercial in this way, fee. I never knew this about you. Imagine, imagine if we did a whole Christmas catalogue of all of the mad, things that we've come up with on this podcast, it would be brilliant. It would be so, so good.

It would outsell knick-knacks for dickheads, which is the term of affection that one of our listeners gave to the Christmas catalogue that plops through the door. I think only when you're a certain age, I don't think you'd be in the target market. I've not received that yet. It's all of the things, you know, those hold-all things that you put over the side of the sofa that have 27 different compartments. And then it'll be, you know, a monocle that's on a telescopic stick so you can plant seeds properly.

I mean, it's, you know, it's slightly kind of, you think they're unnecessary inventions and then you find yourself when you're over the age of 55 looking at them thinking, yeah, actually, it's quite useful. Yeah. If we did our own Christmas catalogue and put it online or something, I wonder what, you know, if someone just happened across it, what they'd make of it with no,

contacts. I think it could go wild. I think it could go viral. We'll keep everybody's suggestions coming in. We need to add to the early morning register Fiona who says I start listening to the pod as I get into my car at 7 o'clock in the morning to drive to work 18 months ago, I moved to a new job which has been challenging to say the least and you accompanying me in the morning has often been the highlight of my day, distracting me from my anxiety and making me root with laughter. We're so happy to help Fiona You do go on to the register The bell will ring in just a couple of moments' time

We've done very, very well, haven't we? On Doll's Names Thank you for all of those. Did I give you a doll's name? You did, and it's providing me a lot of joy This one from Roz. She says, My Granny gave me a doll when I was about four,

one of the plastic type that had a distinctive plastic smell. My granny had knitted a set of clothes, dress, cardigan beauties, she gave the doll to me on one of my trips to her house, but instead of being delighted, I just sobbed. My mother asked what was wrong and sniveling, I said, he shouldn't be wearing a dress. He should have blue trousers, a blue jumper and socks.

Okay, my granny said, smiling at my mum, I will knit some new clothes. A couple of weeks later, I went to visit again and was handed the doll all dressed in blue baby clothes, and I couldn't have been happier. I held him and danced around, delighted with my new baby boy. My mum and granny then asked what I was going to call, him and instead of the usual hesitation, I just proudly announced, his name is Alan Ball.

Brilliant. What a name. I was for and had no knowledge or interest in football, but there he was, my Alan Ball. He was never just known as Alan, always Alan Ball, and I had him for years. He came everywhere with me. He had a cop by my bed, a silver cross pram, a high chair, a bath. He honestly was the first love of my life. I am now 61 and the memory of Alan Ball is such a fond one.

Thanks for reminding me. Are you across the work of genius that was Alan Ball? No. Alan Ball was in the 1966 World Cup football team. He was an amazing player who then I think went on to be a manager of quite a few clubs. So that's just genius. That is amazing. But I don't think this Alan Ball has anything to do with that Alan Ball.

You think it's just Alan Ball? Just pure coincidence. And maybe a bit of mystic. Maybe she knew. Maybe Alan Ball was just in the ether. In the ether. That makes more sense. There are so many doll's names

where the doll has been assigned the doll gender of female at birth with the moulded plastic in the right places and all of that kind of stuff. Or the wrong places. Oh dear, I'm in difficulty already, Hannah. But they are clearly

girl dolls that get given boys' names. I mean, nearly every one of our listeners who's written in about doll's names has given a boy's name. I said that. has given a boy's name to a girl's doll. Isn't this brilliant? It is brilliant, but then I don't know if I'm being cynical.

Tell me more. I just, there's something about the manisphere in that for me. That's very interesting. So we may be internalised. Very, very early doors, you're thinking, so you're looking at a doll that's going to keep you entertained and become your friend in your imaginary world and it's something of a gift as well

and a lovely thing and you look at it and you go that's a man. There has to be a man. I don't mean to out-ros there actually. I'm sure that Alan Ball was just Alan Ball but I don't know if there's anything deeper on a big level. This one comes in from Sandra who says, by the way, of a PS, Hannah, you're doing great, what a team you have there.

yet we love all of our team. Best doll was bought by my nan of the Thunder Cubby Hole email while we're on holiday in Blackpool when I was about four years old. My nan and granddad together with my aunt and uncle decided it must be christened. I remember a lot of ceremony

in giggling over the B&B bedroom sink likely fuelled by a few baby shams and I was awe-struck as my new baby doll was christened. Russell! Russell! Why Russell? I've no idea, says Sandra. He was lovely.

My mum made. made him clothes from my old dresses and he was adored until tragedy struck when I left him sat too close to the gas fire and the back of his head sunk in. I was devastated. My mum took us to the Dolls Hospital in the inside market, see if they could help. The lady suggested a new head, but none of the ones on the shelf looked anything like my dear Russell. He spent the rest of his days with me wearing a knitted bonnet to hide his disfigurement until he moved on to the Wendy House at my son's nursery. Wouldn't he? it be lovely if there were still dolls

hospitals? There would be. Do you know what? Well, I think there is a dolls hospital somewhere, isn't that? I'm going to look into that for you, Sandra. You probably ship the doll off now. I think you would be. It would be an online platform, wouldn't it? You'd have to download an app. I don't want to

download any more apps, ever. My kids, neither of them are in school anymore, and when my younger one left school, this summer, I could eradicate from my phone five apps. Yeah. I mean absolutely everything is on an app these days. And I get it because you don't want to be the company that doesn't provide that kind of modern interface with your customer. But actually it's just so much. It's just so much. I'm finding it strange seeing my old school's social media presence. They post all sorts.

Like what? They do reels on what you like most about school, what you've learned in year 11, which is all really nice, but you wouldn't have got any of me or my friends doing that. I don't know who's sorted out that. That's quite strange, Hannah. Why does the school need to have a social media presence?

And how does that work when presumably in the classroom, you're then saying put down your phones? Yeah, and don't bring them in. Don't do that. Whoa. I know, I know. it is very, oh. Yeah.

And also that's only going to be, and we all do it, don't we, the shiny boastful side of school life. It's not going to be the poor person who's sobbing in the toilets at lunchtime if you can get in. It's not that's weird. Yeah, because as well, you wouldn't want

kids to be vlogging in school, would you? And doing their what I've eaten in my school dinner, because that would be disruptive. So it might then be a bit hypocritical to have a... Yeah, that is weird. Each to their own. Yeah.

Well, we've got loads and loads of teachers who listen to the podcast, so tell us about how all of that pans out. But I think, I mean, your school's not alone. Every school has a social media presence now, doesn't it? Yeah. And, yeah, I'm kind of with you. I don't know.

Also, I think if you're one of those kids who really isn't enjoying school very much, I think that must be so nauseating to see this very... happy image being posted all around you, or something that actually you're not having a great time attending. Maybe you have to do it now. I don't know.

I don't know. Other people will know more. We're in a little bit of trouble. That's me, not you, from Nula, who says, I love listening to you both. I've been a fan since the Fortunately Days. It's my first time writing to you, as I felt I need to share my memory of the Closh Merle TV series

way back in the 70s. I was probably about 11 or 12 years of age when it aired, so memories are vague, do remember my wonderfully unique mum loving it. She didn't watch much TV, so this programme stood out as a childhood memory. I also recall that nobody at school watched it, so it felt like a program that was only watched by my family. I hadn't thought about it for years until you both read out an email about it from a listener last week, and I won't lie, I felt slightly irritated that neither of you were aware of it, let alone knew how to pronounce it initially. I know it was a

niche programme and as a family we loved it, it was quite bonkers. It may have been subtitled as it was French but as I say memories are vague. I am a bit anxious about watching it again if it's available anywhere as it could be one of those situations where the reality doesn't live up to the memory. Well, don't go there, Nula would be my suggestion. Just leave it gloriously in your memory as a rather wonderful eccentric French adaptation of a story about it. your rhinal. I mean what more could you want in your memory bank? Oh yeah you can't always go back and enjoy it on the same. No not at all. Not at all. And also I think the huge danger now, and there's a very good reason

for wanting to cast a bit of a kind of cultural gauze over some elements of our previous forms of entertainment, but you can really harm yourself by doing that because you'll watch something and it'll be so jarring now the language that's used or the way you're people are dressing all the way people speak to each other or whatever it is. And I think you do run the risk of making yourself feel very bad that you didn't notice at the time. And actually some of the books in Book Club that we've read have left people feeling exactly that, you know, quite ashamed of not having the knowledge that we have now, you know, when they were younger. So Nula Rade say some things, you know, it's best just let sleeping

dogs lie. Just leave it there. There's a very, very happy, happy place in your memory. This one comes in from Carol, it's entitled Stick to Your Guns, Hannah. I was utterly stunned when Hannah described being asked to change her northern accent. I thought that mindset had been buried years ago. My parents were brought up in County Durham and Teaside where all their siblings always spoke with a fairly strong local accent. But at some point early in their marriage in the early 50s, they must have made a joint decision to lose their accents completely. and I never heard them utter a northeast vowel ever, not even a hint. They must have firmly believed that their natural accents would hold them back both socially

and in terms of work opportunities. I always feel sad that I have no memories of hearing my parents' voices speaking in their natural regional accent. Somehow I can't imagine hearing them talking as children or when they first met each other. So to anyone out there that judges any of us based on our accent, it is time to grow up. I love hearing you chat away. And lots of people, you're a huge hit on the podcast.

Don't tell Eve. Oh, thank you. That Eve is a huge hit on the podcast as well. And Stuart, I really enjoy talking to both of you because apart from anything else, I think you're both incredibly mature young people, but you also have a delicious certainty about your place in the world,

which might be a cover, because you and I had a bit of a chat, didn't we, after the Andy Oliver, Oh my goodness, yeah. Andy and I had worked at the same radio station, GLR, when we were both very young. And we both completely missed the fact that the other was having massive wobbles underneath their life. And what we're presented was a completely, well, it was an untrue but more polished version of ourselves. I loved the fact that she said that. It meant quite a lot to know that, actually. It did. I was, well, we're in the studio, which obviously no one listening.

and can see but it's very diddy. So I was stood awkwardly at this side trying to record it. It is awkward, isn't it? It's so awkward. But in that moment, honestly, I felt a bit emotional because I was just thinking of me and all my friends and nothing's changed really because you were both expressing how you saw each other

but then how you felt on the inside and not being fully confident in that. I think it's something lots of my friends would be. benefit to her because while I'm in my 20s it's just such an uncertain time but I think the reason that me and Eve feel so certain is because we work on an amazing team with

amazing women and I think a lot of listeners you see if he's instantly looked down she doesn't like the praise coming back to her she doesn't like it well it's nice you to say that but but I think it's quite a rare thing that we've got going on actually because we do all we do all get on together And, you know, there's just a massive generational divide between us, actually,

much more so than when I was your age and was working with 50-something people. Because technology divides us. You know, you're all super skilled at the technology that enables us to get this, you know, from behind the microphone out into the world. And, you know, Jane and I don't have those skills at all. And so often that can, I think, these days, result in a divide that means there's, not very much respect going on between the generations, but that, you know, that isn't the case on our team at all. Definitely not. I think as well, though, you and Jane are just so willing to

nurture younger people, which not everyone is either. Some people pull the ladder up behind them, whereas you and Jane really do the opposite of that. Well, it's very nice for you to say that. It's very nice you to say that. When Andy Oliver and I were working at GLR, the people in their 50s on the station were Tommy Vance and Johnny Walker. Oh, Johnny Walker. I learned a lot from both of them. And whispering Bob as well. And I mean, I know, you know, there is a certain, there is a certain dinosaur in the world of radio, especially music radio, that we don't need to learn very much from some of the elements of the dinosaurs. But actually, Johnny Walker was very helpful and

and kind. I'm not sure that everyone had the same experience actually, so I'm just going to temper it by saying that. He was very helpful. Bob Harris is one of the nicest people I've ever worked with. He was so kind to everybody on the station and we were considerably younger than him and just very annoying, I would have imagined too. So just popping in a word there, but they just weren't I know women or do. Yeah, I was I was thinking that actually as you were saying that. They really weren't. So I think the line up at JLR was Tommy Vance, John. Ronnie Walker, Gary Crowley, Chris Evans, Danny Baker, Peter Curran, Gideon, Gideon who I did a breakfast show with, so we were co-presenting.

Andy Oliver was there for a while. Diana Luke did the afternoon show. There was a peppering. Vanessa Feltz was doing Jewish London at the time. There was a peppering of women doing specialist programmes in the evening, but it was so man-heavy. It really was man. heavy. Which is why I think sometimes maybe women, when they do get into it, have the reputation of being very for themselves. Oh, I think definitely, Hannah. Yeah. And you're right. I think some

women felt that they did have to pull up the drawbridge after them just in order to save their energy, really, because you just needed a lot of energy to keep yourself going. So I hope that's all changed now. Me too. Yeah. We're a nicely balanced radio station. There's a policy here to, if there's a co-pras between a man and a woman. It is the woman's name that goes first on the listings. And that may sound like a tiny thing, but it's hugely important, massively important. Now, you've really touched an awful lot of hearts with your honest experiences of grief and the fact that you are prepared to talk about it. This one comes in from Kirstie, My Chirc, Prisons and Grief.

Kirsty says When my husband died suddenly in 2013 leaving me with three children aged 11, 8 and 4 I was willing to try anything that made me feel less shite I wrote a journal went on endless dog walks with friends I now own a dog myself Lionel the border terrier I started college courses and less than a month after he died I joined a choir and that turned out to be the best thing I did

as well as singing regularly and having that time to myself to be a grown-up every week I got a whole new social group and I have sung in some amazing places. Now, Kirsty goes on to detail the work of this choir. The South London Choir in Ballam is linked to the Liberty Choir. Now, that one is a volunteer-based charity that my brilliantly bonkers and totally charismatic choir leader, M.J. Peronzino, I mean, that's just, that's absolutely what your charismatic choir leader should be called, isn't it, has founded. It started off in Wandsworth Prison, where each week a group of volunteers from the choir gave up their time to go into the jail to sing with soon to be

released prisoners. The idea is that as well as giving the prisoners at least an hour out of their cells each week to sing, they also met and made friends with the choir members. Many corresponded with each other as Richard. Now he was our guest, wasn't here, on a Friday special edition, a former inmate who is still doing some very good work about mentoring to avoid re-offending. As Richard so movingly spoke about in your recent interview, view. When a prisoner who participated left prison, they were called a Liberty Choir graduate, and they were invited to join one of MJ's choirs for free every week. This helped to give them a focus to their week once released and means that they were socialising with positive influences,

rather than perhaps the more negative ones that were likely to lead to re-offending. Fantastic email, lovely direction to be pointed in Kirsty. We don't underestimate how difficult that must have been, to be left dealing with three kids aged 11, 8 and 4 is massive, isn't it? Yeah. Massive. I really can't imagine how difficult that must have been. And I think it is just that finding time for yourself, isn't it? And choir and singing is such a wonderful way to do that.

Yeah. And I think it's especially difficult for parents when you must feel that your kids need you. Yeah. And so you need to devote your time to them. but you absolutely need a break to try and process it all yourself. And I'm sure your mum found that. It's that thing you can't put somebody else's oxygen mask on without your own. Oh, that's so good, I know.

But it is true, isn't it? Yeah, no, my mum definitely found that. I think it's when my mum, when she first met my dad, he had two of his own kids. And so she was in her early 20s, instantly becoming a mum to them, and eventually becoming a mum to me. I think my mum actually just needed some of a youth back.

She needed some fun. You feel like you're not allowed that once someone's died, but I'm glad that she eventually got it and now she's very happy. Yeah, well, that is very good to hear. And you must want to. I mean, you know, you absolutely do sit in sadness when somebody dies,

but you can't sit in sadness forever. No. Unless you choose to. Some people do choose that path. But then to find fun, God, I can completely understand why you go a bit out the other side. Yeah. Oh my goodness, definitely.

This one comes in from Izzy, who says I emailed him once before, although unfortunately not successfully. I always hate that feeling that we haven't read lots of emails out, so don't ever give up because we do get quite a lot. We always read all of them. It's no measure of the content of your email if we don't read it out,

and obviously do still keep trying. I think I'm probably one of your younger listeners at 24. That's my age. Very much so. Izzy was incredibly grateful to hear Hannah sharing her experience of grief as a child, young person. Although I was slightly older when I lost my dad, I had the same situation of no one known what to say or what not to say or how to deal with the situation. My dad died very suddenly a week after my 17th birthday. I only had two days away from sixth form either side.

of a weekend. All of my peers automatically assumed that I was just ill and I only told two friends what was happening. This was only by necessity as I needed to explain why I needed their lesson notes. I was reluctant to tell others because I didn't want to be treated differently and I knew that they would feel awkward because they wouldn't know how to respond. None of my friends had experienced the death of a close relative, let alone the unexpected death of a parent. Even adults seem wary about what to say to me, although my teachers were clearly trying to be supportive. When I returned to school after four intense days by my dad's bedside, I threw myself into schoolwork and tried not to think about things too much. One of the only things that I outwardly

struggled with was being completely unable to watch any TV or films about death or anything without a happy ending. I would have to switch it off much to the annoyance of my mum when I interrupted her gripping and emotional ITV dramas. There's no other type. Is there and I couldn't stomach the meal that I'd eaten for dinner on the night before my dad went into hospital. It took almost a year before I was able to eat my mum's chickpea curry again. In terms of a good age to lose a parent, there obviously isn't one. And although my experience was awful, I often think about how it was for my six-year-old brother. He was too young to fully understand.

He was too young to visit in the ICU. So I don't know if this meant that it was harder for him to have closure. On a less depressing note, me and my brother are very close and both after a rocky few years have settled down and learnt to live with things, although the small things sometimes get to me like passing my driving test, which as an advanced police driver,

my dad would have loved to see I look back now without feeling overwhelmed by grief. Izzy had a doll called Mr Rabbit. Here we go again. He was not Mrs. Rabbit. Yes, he was a boy in a dress, and no, I didn't care. Izzy, thank you for your email. We are both so, so, so sorry that that happened to you.

What a thoughtful email it is. And, I mean, that is just remarkable as well, isn't it, to only have two days away from school either side of a weekend. Yeah. I feel like when you're going through that, you think nobody else could possibly understand it. But there wasn't one thing that I didn't relate to in that email. Honestly, Izzy say thank you so much for sending that in.

I was the same. I went straight back to school because what else are you going to do? I mean, obviously, it probably would have been better to take time off to process it, but how do you possibly process that? And then, yeah, not wanting to tell people. Did you find that you knew how to tell people? When do you put that into a conversation with somebody at that age? When everyone's just...

Something that was unfortunate for me, is my dad died on the 31st of March, so I had to tell people on the 1st of April. Did some people think it was... I think, unfortunately, yes. I know. So I think that was another reason I held off telling people where I could, but I remember messaging my best friend,

and she was like, this is really sick. I was like, no, I'm not being serious. And then, yeah, straight back to school, and it's just a complete roller coaster. But you've made it. You're there with it. Mr. Rabbit still keeping you going, you supporting your brother, that's amazing. And we just keep plodding on, don't we?

And have you found in the subsequent years that there is some kind of league table of grief that some people have in their minds? Because I think that it's no more sad that somebody might die at an older age in your life. I mean it's very shocking that your father died when he was so young and when you were so young. And sadness and shock are two different things, aren't they? But sometimes I think people do try and do the, you know, it's, it must be much worse for you. I just think when you lose someone you love, it's just very bad for stop, isn't it? It's rubbish.

And it's so unhelpful to try and categorise it in that way, I think. To categorise any kind of hurt, because I have friends who have difficult. relationships with their dads who are still alive and that causes them pain in a whole other way and that pain is continual because the dad's letting them down so it's like whatever you're going through what do we win by trying to say all minds with it I mean you lost your dad at a really difficult time in your life

was it just after you had children it was just before I mean oh my goodness yeah well it's kind of you to say that or even to remember that detail I'll tell you what people have been so helpful about what not say and what to say. I would say that if you have a friend who loses a parent just before they have a baby, don't say at least you've got the baby. Oh my God. Did anybody say that?

So many people say that. You're kidding. So many people said, oh, but look, you've got your baby. Oh, no. Oh, my God. The thing that really used to upset me about that was I didn't want to look at my, baby and think about my dad. It was kind of like, no, these are two very different people in my life. And of course I was, I mean, of course I was delighted, absolutely delighted to have my son.

He's a phenomenal human being. But it was quite strange. It was quite strange. And I was grateful to be busy. And obviously, if you have a baby, you've become very, very busy. And I probably, looking back on it, benefited from the sheer distraction of having a baby. But it wasn't, it's not an okay thing to say actually. It's just a slightly odd thing to say. I just think as well for every positive you can think of, if you can even use that word, for everything you can say, oh, well, it's okay because of this, it's okay, so there are a whole other host of

of reasons why it's actually the worst time in the world. So then we're all in the same boat, actually, aren't we? But we do that thing, don't we? And I bet people did it so much to you. were out of a kind place in our heart, we want people to feel better because we care and love about them. But it is stomping down on something

that is completely natural. And young people, you don't want to be told what to think and feel at the age of 17 anyway, do you? No, exactly. Yeah. So, really lovely emails. Do keep them coming. And if you're joining the podcast

and you haven't heard where this discussion came from, it is fair to say, isn't it, that you're very happy to talk about your dad's death. It's not something that we've forced you to do. No, no, I'm very, very happy. Dead dads, shoot yourself salads. Throw it all at me. There is one lovely email, and then we will move on to other things, actually.

It comes in from Giselle, and, I mean, it is, I'm going to read as much of it as I can. Listening to Fian and Hannah reminded me of a bizarre little event on the morning of my dad's funeral, as we were all waiting anxiously for the hearse to arrive for his final journey, but instead a small bus threw up with a group of Silverhead senior citizens on board. A bit bemused, I went out to the woman in charge. It transpired there come to collect Dad, who had Parkinson's, for a weekly activity day out at a centre, something he hated, specifically the bingo. It was more to give my mother a breather,

as she wasn't one of life's carers and would make him go despite protests. I told the group leader here died and we were expecting the hearse to which she smiled benignly replying, probably for the best. Oh my goodness. It may not have been the most, you know, amusing chap to have had on the bus,

but Parkinson's can take that away from people. Yeah. I mean, you can't take that to people. No. You just can't do that. Dr. Quinn, coincidences and stamps. He started the podcast on Monday with a reference to Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman.

It made me, think instantly of my dad, not because he was a fan of Dr. Quinn, but because he was a huge fan of the TV critic Nancy Banks-Smith. Now, she could really write, couldn't she? When Dr. Quinn first aired, Nancy wrote a very funny review of it, which made my dad Chortle. I tried to find it, but failed. But I do still remember the last line.

So we're off with girlish cries of, we can hide Chief Black Kettle in the barn. This line became an off-used family phrase. I don't know whether, I don't know. or that I'd watch another episode. No. But you do also, Alex, send a fantastic petition that is definitely worthy of our time.

It is to try and get Christmas card stamps reduced in price. Isn't that brilliant? Do you ever use a stamp as a young person, Hannah? I have three stamps in my bag, actually. It's only ever for my grandma and granddad, though, so I wouldn't have them otherwise. I don't think many people my age do. No.

Well, I'm not surprised. They're just so blooming expensive. But it is really weird because when I was your age, I would have had a strip of stamps. We were before the books. I'd have a strip of stamps, first class and second class. And they'd just live in my wallet. Everybody had stamps because I think they were about 20B. So the idea, though, on this one, is,

and you can find it very easily. If you go to change.org and pop in save Christmas cards, you can join this. Alex says, I thought I'd share the petition by the granddaughters of Sir Henry Cole. I saw it on Sophia Money Coot's substacks. Sifier Money Cootts is a journalist who often writes for the time. Times, the time.

Very small edition. That's one story. Sir Henry Cole was the man behind the first commercial Christmas card and this is a petition which is being put out there by his great, great, great granddaughters, actually. And they are suggesting that just at Christmas, we have reduced stamps so people can still send Christmas cards because they mean so much, especially to the oldies.

Yeah, exactly. I think that's what it is, isn't it? Because it's sad now that you just send a message to someone or a GIF, Merry Christmas. We need to get out of that, actually. Yeah. You get back to the Christmas cards. So with you.

My mum loves a Christmas card She starts writing hers in about November And she saves up So she can buy enough stamps To send them to all of her friends It means the world to her to receive them back Yeah And I mean I completely get it

You know, it's beyond the reach of so many people Now to send as many Christmas cards as they used to But she can't put up on her She's got one of those old-fashioned dresses She can't put one of those paperless cards cards or the ones that come, you know, through the internet. She can't put that up on her dresser. And it is like for her, it's like seeing all of her friends.

Oh, that's the lovely. You know, up there at Christmas. And especially because she moved a long way away from, you know, her friendship group when she came down south after 30 years in Scotland. So it really, you know, it's a big thing. I think that's an absolutely brilliant petition. We are happy to support it and send it out on its way in the world. Who is our guest today, Hannah?

Dr Richard Coker. He's fascinating, isn't he? He's doing something that is very, very rare talking honestly from a doctor's perspective about what he has done with his patients towards the end of their lives. We put it out there, though, that this might be one of those interviews

that if you are in end-of-life care with a loved one, it might be intriguing to listen to, but it might be difficult to listen to. So if that's the case, then you just leapfrog about 18 minutes across the podcast interview and join us on the other side. Richard Coker was just 26, when as the most senior doctor on a night shift

in a flu crisis at a hospital, he took the decision to help a patient, a 65-year-old man with chronic lung disease, who was suffering intently in front of his family. They were beside themselves witnessing his pain and his distress play out. The decision that Dr. Coker took was to give him enough medication

to relieve his suffering, enough medication to end his life. And he says it's what all good doctors do. He's gone on to do it many times, as have many other doctors. But this isn't something that they can say that they've done because that means they're admitting to a crime, manslaughter or murder.

So Richard Coker's book, all about death in its many forms, called Tima Mortis, makes for extraordinary reading. He joins us now. Dr. Coker, a very good afternoon. Good afternoon. Tell us a little bit more just about the title of the book.

We might know what Rigamortis is, but what is Timor Mortis? Well, Timor Mortis is Latin for Fear of Death, and it comes from a poem by William Dunbar about 600 years ago. And the final clause, the final stanza in each... verse is Timot Mortis Conturbate Me, which is fear of death disturbs me. And I think it disturbs a lot of people. And so what I've tried to do is I've tried to write about the anxiety we have about death, but also how we live, knowing that we're all going to die,

knowing that our journeys all end in the same way and try not to be terrified of it. There is so much in the book about death, and we absolutely will make time. to talk about some other things, but the focus, I think, you've already come to realise will probably be about you being prepared to talk about end-of-life care as a doctor,

a doctor who is prepared to, in a sense, take control of when that life ends. Can you just tell us a little bit more about that? I started with this example of you when you were 26. Maybe tell us a bit more about that night. Well, if I could just preface it, by saying, I'm not sure it's a crime.

I think it's what doctors have always done, actually, which is to alleviate suffering. And sometimes that alleviation of suffering hastens death. But I don't think that that's a crime. And in fact, since I had the Times piece came out, I've had a huge number of doctors right to me saying that they support.

this, they've always done this, that I think the end of the article ends up by saying, if you get prosecuted, then I'm Spartacus. And that's what a huge number of doctors have come to me saying. No, and I completely understand that. And I think our listeners will completely understand that. But isn't that the number of the problem at the moment, that what you see and many people understand to be a really compassionate thing that is being done by one human being to another, actually within the eyes of the law is not seen in the same way. I'm not a lawyer. And when somebody's in extreme suffering, they're suffering intolerably.

There's no lawyer in the room either. There's usually a family, maybe a friend and doctors. And I think rather than the doctor taking control, actually what I think it really should be with a good, death is that the patient has control but they have communicated that to their to their doctors to their primary care physicians to their family that the suffering has become intolerable and they can't bear it anymore so i think this is actually not an uncommon scenario i think the assisted dying bill and all the talk of that has maybe muddied the waters a little bit because this is such a common

occurrence. And pretty much everybody, I think, certainly all the comments that I've had, and there have been thousands of them, have overwhelmingly supported this position. When do you think the law might change then? Because assisted dying, it was going through our parliamentary system. It hit quite a few bumps in the road. I'll tell you what, the Prime Minister has been asked about it today. Let's just hear the clip before we talk some more? I take the view that that debate and I don't say that there shouldn't be a debate about those issues. Personally I think there's something that needs to happen first and that's the fixing of the funding of

palliative care and social care. I think it is very challenging to introduce that wider debate in a context of people not receiving their that care and having the peace of mind about that care. And that's the way I kind of see this. And that's the position that I will stick to. Your thoughts about that, Dr. Koka? I wholeheartedly agree. I think the discussion has been sidelined actually by the assisted dying bill.

Whereas what I've been suggesting in my book is that the over-medicalisation of death has been a bit of a problem. I think so many people are unfamiliar with death. I was talking to my mum who's 97 and she's only seen one person die and that was my father. Most doctors have seen hundreds of deaths and yet we don't get taught about death in medical school. So the palliative care issue is really critical. But I also think the primary care subject should be coming to the fore here because the critical thing. is communication as well. And communication between patients and their doctors over a long period of

time so that they both know each other and trust each other is absolutely critical. 20 or 30 years ago I was looking after an awful lot of HIV positive patients, many of whom were dying, and I was looking after them for years. So I knew them extremely well when the end was coming. And I think most of them had good deaths. And I think that familiarity and that trust was actually critical. The other thing, if I can, the difficulty with laws and regulations is that they can bring into this idea of metrics and performance measures. And everything becomes quantifiable. But you can't quantify despair, suffering, love.

all of these things that are really, or trust, all of these things that are really critical at the end of life. So I worry a little bit about the assisted dying bill shifting emphasis away from these things that really matter. And what do you feel when you're with a patient at the very end of their life? And you know them, you know what they want, and you are in a sense the only person who's there in the room who can help them to achieve. that. It's a position that very, very few of us will ever find ourselves in. Yeah, and lots of young doctors who've only just qualified find themselves in the same position I was 40-odd years ago. I mean, I think the best deaths that I have supported are actually deaths at home where I've not been present, but I've given them the means to hasten their deaths should they wish.

and I think many probably took it and their family and relatives fed back to me that they had really good deaths. I write about some cases in the community who have assisted dying have deaths being hastened by their GPs. And I think that's probably better than hospitalised deaths, although some people do want to die in hospital

because they feel safer. but I think most people want to die surrounded by people who love them and not suffering intolerably. And I think you're just as a doctor, you're just an age to that. You know, the autonomy of the patient, the decision making of the patient is absolutely critical. You talk in the book about outsourcing death exactly what you're saying there. But I mean, I wonder about the practical solutions. to that problem. We don't talk enough about how people die.

We don't see people die, but how do you change that? I think, well, partly conversations like this, I think an enormous number of people think about death an enormous amount, but they don't talk about it a huge amount. There was a meme about 70% of over 50-year-old men think about the Romans every day. And that's not true, but an awful lot of men and women of all ages think about death every day, every week, but seldom talk about it. So I think this sort of

conversation really helps. Yeah, I'm glad you said that about the Romans, because I've always thought that was absolutely daft as well. So when you're talking to other doctors about the experiences that you share, would it help if we were all a bit more privy to that? Yeah, I think the best doctors talk to their patients about death. But a lot of hospital doctors, for example, see their patients right at the end and may not have that relationship. And a lot of primary care doctors are overwhelmed. So I think doctors should be having these conversations. As I say, I was really fortunate because I was looking after people who, for a long period, viewed themselves as terminally ill.

and so this was a natural event to raise. And I had never had any problem with any patient about discussing it because I knew them so well. Some doctors, though, must surely find themselves in a very difficult position where a family are asking them to make the end of a loved one's life more bearable to hasten it along. And perhaps that doctor is unsure as to whether or not the patient wants that. that, what do you do in that kind of situation? Yeah, I think you've hit a really important issue. I mean, the respect of the patient is central to this.

And a competent patient, that is somebody with the capacity, to think what they want and know what they want, should be at the centre and should not be coerced by anybody, be that doctors, nurses or relatives. So I can understand this sort of slippery slope that people feel they might fall in. to that there are issues about suffering and duration of life. If I can give you an example, so the 65-year-old man that is mentioned in the article, and I write about in my book,

he was suffering intolerably and was going to die within a day or two maximum. What would you say to a man who has locked-in syndrome, which means he's got a brainstem bleed, and at the bottom of his skull and he cannot communicate, he can't move, he can't do anything, he can't tell you he's suffering intolerably. Now he may not be in pain, but he is suffering intolerably. And his lifespan may stretch from weeks to months to years.

Now these are the really, really difficult issues where people can't communicate because they're so infirm, They're suffering so intolerably. How do we help them? How would you want to be helped? Gosh, I mean, a question that I can't possibly answer, but I would hope that I would have managed to tell somebody before I had reached that point of incapacity what my wishes were.

And that's the massive problem, isn't it, when somebody hasn't, or at the moment when somebody has said what they want to happen, but actually the law doesn't allow it. but you're the man in the room who would have to make the decision, what would yours be? I've already said to the people that love me what my decision would be and I wouldn't want to be incapacitated 100% for years.

It would be intolerable suffering for me. So I've told them. I think if we got a second, there's another problem that doctors sometimes do is that and Brenda Hale talks about this in her book where you withdraw life-saving technologies but you do it so slowly that it can become torture she talks of a woman who's who had written that she did not want to be ventilated but was ventilated and the doctors suggested because she didn't want to be ventilated they slowed down her respiratory rate through the ventilation which in effect would have suffocated her.

It's just not right. No. It's lost the point of what medicine is. Medicine is technology, it's science, but it's also empathy and art. Well, let's talk a bit about that empathy as well because I know that you have made the point that perhaps the way that we sift through

our young people in order to find the people to go to medical college, and the bar is exceptionally high to train as a doctor. That sifting may actually be taking out some people who could really benefit the medical profession. Tell us more about that. Yeah, I have fairly strong feelings about this, and we give so little time to trying to identify doctors of the future

when we're selecting people for medical school. Basically, we look at how they did in GCSEs and A-levels, and then maybe we give them a short interview. But if you look at most of industry when they're recruiting people and they're intending to spend significant resources in training and sustaining their careers, they spend days and days and days. Maybe we should be doing this with doctors because we want the right doctors. And I know that training can do an awful lot about enhancing people's ability to communicate and getting people to see their patients with empathy.

but I also think character is really important. And I think this should be one of the criteria that we choose our doctors. If I give myself as an example, I'm seriously, I'm not the brightest of the medical students that I trained with. But I think I was a pretty good doctor. I don't think I often lost sight of the patients in front of me. and I enjoyed that role. I mean, I enjoyed the science, and I enjoyed the technological aspects of it,

but I also really enjoyed the relationship with patients. Have you met some truly awful doctors along the way? You're going to get me in trouble. I have met a number of awful dogs. You don't have to name them. I'm not going to name them. I'm not going to name them, God. But every doctor's met some awful doctors.

You know, I have a particular bug bear about hero doctors, and they're often young, ambitious, and they sometimes think that there's some sort of accolade to be gained by keeping people alive no matter what. And I've also met doctors who just have complete disregard for their patients. I know an ENT surgeon who puts his hands around his mouth when a patient asks a question unrelated to ENT because he said, I only deal with these inches that are between my hands. That's not medicine. That's, I don't know what that is. Yeah, that's unhelpful, should we just say, we're on the radio.

We've got so many messages for you, Dr. Coker. I'd like to get through as many as possible. So here goes. Helen says, I'm so tired of the society we've created. So little makes sense. My cousin died in his 40s of motor neurone disease. He was told that ultimately he wouldn't be able to breathe and would suffocate. It was explained that to ease his suffering,

he could be given an injection to relax his lungs. But this would bring about his death. He understood this. When he was gasping for breath, his wife, mother and sister present, He was asked if he wanted the injection. He nodded his assent and passed away immediately. His death was managed without prolonged suffering, without drawing a lot of attention.

This is how physicians have managed suffering. They should continue to do so. My cousin's name was Derek. This from Mal, who says having lost my wife to cancer earlier this year, she died holding my hand. Your doctor is 100% right. And this from David, who says my wife was taken into, a hospice to elevate pain from bone cancer. She received morphine and died after three days.

I feel that the pain she was in, it was a relief, although at the time I felt it was excessive amounts of drugs, but I think it was for the best, but it has taken many years to come to realise this. And actually, Dr. Coker, I think David's point is very important, isn't it? when you are the loved one of somebody who is in pain, you may well not be in the very best place yourself. That is so obvious, isn't it? And actually, you do need a doctor for the emotional distance they have to the patient

as much as you need them for what they can do for the patient. You're a different person in the room, aren't you? Yeah, I mean, I wholeheartedly agree with all those sentiments, actually. some diseases are very very uncomfortable they really induce incredible suffering many don't and many people have really really good deaths but there are some that are just awful because many of them are just slow incremental increases in suffering each day and there isn't one day that somebody says I've had enough each day you think it's a little bit worse but I'm just about hanging on

I think we can look back at George the 5th remember George the 5th he was... Not personally but yes well he was given a Brompton cocktail by his doctor Lord Dalton who wrote about it sometime after and a Brompton cocktail was widely used back in the 30s and that's a combination of

of heroin and cocaine and alcohol. And he died without suffering. I mean, there were problems at the time because it was a little sensitive because actually it had to fit the Times, the issuance of the Times publication. So there was some, what should we say, some conflict over the methods that he used.

But the Brompton cocktail was widely used. Right. But to go back to the beginning of our interview, isn't the whole point that if I administered that, then I absolutely would run the risk of going to jail for a very long time. If you administer that, it's still a cloudy area. Yes, it's a cloudy area. I think lots of relatives do so, actually, with the support of their doctors. I mean, I mentioned that many of my patients actually did die at home, and I just talked to them for a long period about the amount of morphine that they would require to alleviate their

pain and that if they took too much, then that would hasten their death. Now, I wasn't in the room when they died. I don't know what happened, but I've got a pretty good idea that some of them might have requested that their friends or their relatives hasten their deaths. I wish you were my doctor. I'm sure there are lots of people listening who really wish that you were theirs too. I'm sorry we don't have more time because there's so much else to talk about with regard to the book, particularly our increasing obsession with longevity and a very interesting chapter about the connection between sex and death. But it's a pleasure to talk to you, Dr. Coker. Thank you very much indeed for your time this afternoon. The book is called Tima Mortis. Dr. Richard Coker, I think his book

is really worth a read. It's very rare to hear a doctor talk so honestly, actually, so I'd say good for him and actually I did get a message from Andrew Billen, one of our colleagues here at the Times. We were talking about something completely different, but he did a fantastic interview with the doctor, which has been so successful. It's actually led to his book being stocked in more bookshops around the country because people really do need to talk openly about this and they want to. So props to Andrew Billen, the Billen effect, I think we'll call it from here on in. Shall we end with a slightly chastising email that made me giggle?

Yes, so Stephen from Hong Kong, I think he's rounding off our men's underwear nicely. Please stop saying men's knickers. Hi, hi, love the pod, but this is cringe beyond belief. Pants or underwear only, please. I'm embarrassed that I almost want to say we're British after all. Even more embarrassed since I'm Scottish. What's wrong with knickers? I don't know, but he says it with love.

and I guess that's, we can do no more. I've been told. We have been told, haven't we? We've absolutely been told. Right. It's no more knickers from Hannah. It's no more knickers from me. And we will join you again tomorrow.

Our email address remains jane and fee at times.orgia. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

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