Muslims Are Going to Priests for Exorcisms (Fr. Anthony Mourad) | Last Call Ep. 37
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02:45Learn more about what our people do at chevron.com slash America.To suggest that all Muslims are evil would be incredibly foolish, but to suggest that somehowIslam and Christianity are compatible would be just as foolish as well.Abune Anthony, thank you for dropping by.You're most welcome.Sorry, I thought you were going to finish the sentence.I guess I ended on like a bye.You pause and then I thought his name's Anthony, right?
03:35I didn't know where we were going.No, we're 100% keeping that in.It's been so great to hang out with you and to talk to you about Our Lady of ZayZaytune. But obviously, you were born in Egypt. Your parents are from Egypt. Most of the copsare in Egypt? Or 100%? The vast majority of us. Right. So what I wanted to ask you about todayis how do we, obviously all of us, you know, work, live, interact with people of differentfaiths. But I wanted to talk about Muslims specifically, since you're from a Muslim majoritycountry. How do we love our Muslim neighbors? How do we say condemn Islam without condemning the
04:20Muslim? How do we love them and how do we evangelize them? Yeah. I think that the Coptic Orthodox Churchhas a really unique reality where a lot of her faithful, a lot of her believers, they're going togrow up in a reality where some of their closest friends at school, at work, their neighbors,the people who treat them kindly, the people who they depend on to be able to getthrough everyday life, a lot of them are going to be very good Christian people and others are goingto be really incredible Muslim people. And so to highlight what you were saying a second ago,it really is about recognizing the difference between my problem with Islam versus my problemwith my neighbor or my friend, the Muslim. My own father, growing up in Egypt, some of his
05:06closest friends who he trusts with his life are very good.very good Muslims who, these are people who,when they found out that both of his sons were three children,two of us are priests, they called my father and congratulated himand then asked for our numbers to call and congratulate us,because they see us as their own children.So we're talking about people who are really incredible.And if I do have a problem with Muslims,
05:32it's those who have drank the Kool-Aid when it comes to the extremism, right?And unfortunately, what a lot of people fail to dois that they don't distinguish betweenour stance towards Islamversus our stance towards Muslims.To suggest that all Muslims are evilwould be incredibly foolish.But to suggest that somehow
05:53Islam and Christianity are compatiblewould be just as foolish as well.And the reason that I say that is becausewhen you study both doctrines,it's made very, very clearthat we're not preaching the same thing.And in so doing,this makes the conversation very delicate,
06:09especially when you're dealing with someone you loveIf I'm dealing with a friend who is Muslim, who I live in a reality where if I inviting him to come to Christ, I'm inviting him to apostasize.This could put his life in danger in the Middle East.This is not something to be taken lightly.I'm also speaking to someone that if he does accept Christ in his life, this will flip his life completely upside down.His family can turn against him.He might be completely abandoned by those that he loves.He might be a person who's chased down by the state because it's illegal to convert.
06:38There is so much going on in that reality that cops have really adopted an evangelism that is significantly more incarnational than it is at the level of passing out tracks and just like preaching at the corners of streets.We don't have the luxury of being able to do that in Egypt.All right. So I want to talk about seven weeks coffee.All right.Now, when I was first told to advertise seven weeks coffee, I'm going to be really honest with you.I was afraid that the coffee wasn't going to be very good, but hey, they had a great mission,so why not promote them? And I actually wasn't going to promote them if that was the case.So, seven weeks coffee sent me a ginormous box of coffee, and it is genuinely excellent.
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08:09and she loves it, and it's great coffee.Go check them out.Seven Weekscoffee.com slash pints.So every autumn we decide we're going to become wonderfully disciplined people, right?We're going to read more, spend less time on our phones.Apparently, buying a new notebook is an essential part of this transformation.But one thing I do want to take seriously is spending more time with scripture.And I know from experience that enthusiasm doesn't automatically mean understanding.
08:39Sometimes I need someone to explain what it is I'm reading.And that's what I appreciate about the St. Paul Center app.It's really fantastic.It brings leading Catholic scripture scholars, people we've had on our show,write to your phone with free podcasts and lectures that help you understand the Bible and the biblical roots of our faith.There are also roughly 10-minute reflections on the daily mass readings.something you can listen to over your morning coffee without waiting for an entirely free afternoon.If you're resetting your routine this full, make room for God's word.
09:14I really encourage you download the St. Paul Center app right now for free,available in the Apple and Google App stores, visit st.pawcenter.com slash app.If you were to do that, what would the consequence be?Or you would get arrested.You are not allowed to preach any doctrine other than that which is supported.by the state and Egypt is unapologetically Islamic in its doctrine.And yet simultaneously, and I think this is a big grace and a big gift from God,the current president treats Christians with a tremendous amount of respect.
09:49Abdul Fetei Sisi is a wonderful president who tries to create equality between everyoneas best as he possibly can.But at the principal level, no, I mean, there's a very clear distinction between, you know,certain things that Christians can't doand Muslims only allow to do.Simple things like you can't play for thenational soccer team if you area Christian. And again, it's
10:11an unwritten rule that's unofficial, butit's still very much an Islamicgovernment. What's it likein Egypt if you're trying to get a governmentjob or just a regular job as a Christian?There are people who will still be ableto climb up the ladder and becomegovernment officials of some sort, but to be
10:27given a title of extreme power,one who can actually change things,very rarely will you see a Christian in that kind of position.Again, despite the fact that the president,he really has been one of the nicest and best presidents to us.And to go back to that conversation that you were asking me about,what does evangelism then look like?In our experience, it becomes a reality where you no longer have to use words.
10:51I think it's actually, I think it's St. Francis.It's misattributed to him, but it doesn't mean it's a bad quote.Okay.Yeah, preach the gospel at all times and if necessary use words.So who is it then if it's not him?I don't know, but there's no evidence that he said it.Okay.I'm glad you actually clarified that because I dropped that line a lot.
11:06Yeah.But regardless of who it belongs to, it's clearly inspired by the Holy Spirit,because that's exactly the reality that a lot of Coptic Christians will have to face.You will have to preach the gospel, but it will be through your words.It'll be through how trustworthy you are, how honest you are, how you do everything with integrity,how you adopt humility, and yet you're not a doormat.You still can be assertive.You can still be a person who is respectable.
11:30It will be shown by the way that you are willing to give the shirt off of your back in order for you to show love without discrimination.This is how the person is won over to Christ because ultimately, when they see something so unique about you and they desire it, their approach will be, why are you so different?Why are you doing what you're doing?And when your only response is because I am a Christian, then they suddenly take interest.And what is it about Christianity that makes you behave this way?And so you can imagine that incarnational aspect of evangelism becomes the very means by which you can win people over.I think it was Pope Paul the 6th said, modern man listens more willingly to witnesses than teachers.And if he listens to teachers, it's because they are first witnesses.
12:16That's right.So what is the experience in Egypt then, either from your own evangelistic efforts or other Coptic Christians that you've heard of that are bringing Muslims?So let me share with you some experiences that we have personally had.It's interesting because we are the Christians of the Middle East and probably the largest body of Christians in the Middle East.When we do have people who are inquiring about the Christian faith from an Islamic Arabic background,they'll naturally gravitate towards the Coptic Church.And this is a significantly easier conversation to be had here in the West, right?Because now, you know, you can do things here in the West that are significantly more difficult to do back in the Middle East.
12:56East. So if a person were to walk off the street with me and speak to me as a Coptic Orthodoxpriest and they come from a very Arabic mindset, I can still speak to them freely hereabout the gospel in a way that it will be very, very difficult to do in Egypt. Because in Egyptyou don't know what's being recorded, who has malicious intent, is the person actually beingsincere? Can I get the church in trouble? Can I get the person killed? There is so much happeningthere. And you really don't know. I was chatting with some Catholics from SaudiArabia who were saying something similar that they had to be really careful when someoneapproach for baptism because they didn't know if they were spying on them or if they were going
13:35to report them. That's right. And again, by the grace of God, extremism has been, like, it's beenvery diminished in Egypt more recently, but the extremism still exists. And because you don't knowwho you're dealing with, it becomes very difficult to navigate. So it requires a lot of wisdomand discernment. The example that I wanted to give you was the people that we have walked with on theirjourney to Christ who are coming from an Islamic background in my experience, but you got to rememberthis is a very pastoral experience. I don't identify as a person who is a Christian apologist.So I'm not out there learning all of the suras and trying to demonstrate to them where thecontradictions are, I leave that for those who have the gift of doing that, and some of those
14:16people are incredible. One of the pioneers of that was a Coptic priest by the name of Abuna ZagareyaBoutkus. Abuna Zagorea is like, he is a huge deal when it comes to this reality. HeHe was one of the first pioneers to do it.So when you see some of the other guys doing it right now online,a lot of them look up to Abu Nasakrera.Abuna has been in hiding and he's got a target on his head for the longest time.There's a number associated to how much we'll give to the person who kills himbecause he is hated, especially by the extremist groups in the brotherhood and so on and so forth.
14:46Their approach is significantly more speak their language in a way that is fierce, robust,sometimes even aggressivebecause they only understand power.They only understand respectby those who take it by force.And so when you speak their language,then they will listen.In the pastoral reality,
15:08the Lord brings them to your doorstep.The response is not to be forceful and aggressive.The response is to immerse them in love.And so when you introduced them to the Christwho met with the Samaritan woman at the well,with Christ who chose the tax collectorwhose name was Levi and he turned him into the evangelist, Matthew.When you speak to them about how it is that he chose Mary Magdalene,
15:32who had seven demons to be one of the women who spent on his ministry,when you speak to them about how it is that he met with Zekees and he had supper at his house,that is so foreign to them.That level of love is something that they have never encountered before.Remember, in Islam, God has 99 titles, 99 names,and among all of the titles that Allah has,father and lover, are not part of that.The intimacy that the human soul was created to have with God
16:05is not fulfilled.God who created you in his image and likenessintentionally built you in a way so that you could run on him.You need to desire him,and that can only be built on relationship.And yet, Islam will say statements like,Allah is father to no one.And in so doing, they're trying to make sure that people don't resort to Christianity.
16:29They don't believe the supposed unaccused lie that Jesus is the son of God.And Jesus never called him, Father.But when you introduce the Muslim to the fatherhood of God,to the friendship of Christ, to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,to the relationship that you can have with the triune Godwho doesn't want to walk next to you,He wants intimacy and union within you.He wants to indwell you.
16:55This is absolutely mind-blowing to the person.They've never heard of this thing ever before.It is so foreign to them.The amount of people that we have seen break down into tearsbecause they don't know how to make sense of it.And it's very painfulbecause their entire world is being flipped upside downand they don't know how to necessarily navigate this
17:15without losing family members and friends and communities.But simultaneously, they can't.cannot deny what they're reading and what they're seeing.And to be very honest with you, when you get into the academic stuff, the historical Jesus isvery easy to prove.The historical Jesus, like, did he actually say those things?Did he actually pray to the Father?Was he actually the Son of God and divine the way that he claimed to be?
17:40All of these things are easily provable if you just understand scripture and show whatthe early Christians believe, especially when you begin to show how, according to theQuran, they should be referring back to the Injil.They should be referring back to the scriptures of Christians.When you show them all of these things and the encounter Christ,the invitation then becomes,you believe he is a prophet.Ask Allah to allow him to speak for himself.
18:06Ask Allah to allow for Jesus to reveal whether or not he's actually your Lord and Savior.These are conversations you've had with those.Oh, my goodness, with many people in Ottawa.I'm talking about people that I am picturing themand naming them in my heart as we speak.These are people that I have had the privilege of baptizing myself.And it's incredible to be able to see how once they taste the love of Christ,everything changes, man.
18:32It's funny you say that my friend Jacob Imam was, he's a convert to Catholicism,his father was Muslim.And I pray I'm getting this story right.He was on his deathbed, and Jacob, who was then a Christian,read to him the story of the prodigal son.And at the end of the story, his father, who had not heard that before, burst into tears because he was certain that the point of the story was going to be that the father gave him what for when he came home.That's right.So he heard the story in a way that Christ's first listeners probably would of.
19:09Absolutely.Many of us raised in a Christian culture don't feel the full force of it.Precisely.And I think there is nothing that overwhelms a Muslim who is seeking.the truth as much as them encountering the love of God, the fatherhood that he desires to pour downon you and call you his own child. It is so foreign. And when they encounter it, they don't knowwhat else to do other than to break down. And then to think that he sent his only begotten sonto be crucified and killed, to atone for my mistakes so that I may have life in him,
19:45only for him to conquer death for my sake, so that he could place his Holy Spirit.spirit in me so that I could be one with him in eternity when you put all of these things together.This is such a foreign doctrine in comparison to the God who sits as judge and who say,I will weigh out your good versus your bad, and I am telling you, nobody's good outweighs his bad.Yeah, amen.So I have been partnering with Relay for a while now, and I want you to hear what somebodywho actually found Relay through this show said, quote,oh glory to God. Glad he brought me here with other Christ-loving brothers to hold me accountable.
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22:57edu slash pints. There's also a link in the description that you can click.I've been told that in Egypt, if a individual is either possessed or is being harassed by demons,that often the Sheikh, is that right, or the imam,do I get those right, who doesn't know what to do with the individualwill sometimes send them to a Coptic priest.Is this true?We do have documented cases of that happening.And it's very well known in many circles in Egypt,
23:31that while they do have their own rights of exorcismand their own rights of how it is that they deal withliberating people from demonic forces and thingsthat when they plateau and they no longer what to do,they invite them to go see the Nazarenes,those who are...Yeah, in Masaga, yeah, those who follow Jesus of Nazareth.And it's really interesting to see how it is
23:54that we had this one priest who had the giftand it was a very public thing.Everybody knew that he had the gift.Many of this, like a lot of his ministrywas actually documented on video.He's now reposed in the Lord,Abu Namakeri Yunnan.if you took a look at the people who filled the church
24:11while he was doing these things,half of them, if not more, were Muslims.And they were there seeking liberation,seeking freedom from the demonic.It was very common practice.And to them, I don't know how they justified it.Maybe it's because they think,well, at least they're using the great name,
24:29you know, of Jesus' peace be upon him.Yeah.Maybe that's what they thought.But it's very clear that the prayers,that cast out the demonwere in declaringthat Jesus is Lord and King of Creation.He is not just the prophet.
24:44And so a lot of these things exist in the Middle East.And when we have even these kind of conversationwith people here in the West,those are some of the things, you know,they're head scratchers for them.They don't know how to make sense of them.And so again, I want to reiterate this,there is a place and a role,
25:01a very important role for a lot of the apologistswho do their work,and may God continue to bless themYeah.But in the pastoral reality, I'm not flexing the muscle of take a look at where you contradictand Muhammad is this and that and your God is this and that.It's very much, come and let me introduce you to Christ.And he does the rest.
25:19He does all of it.Yeah, yeah.So, okay, what do you make, again, as someone who comes from Egypt, what do you make of thisstrange alliance, so-called alliance between the left and Islam?It seems to be the left chasing Islam, not the other way around, but you'll see things likeQueers for Palestine and this sort of thing, where it seems like Christianity is enemy number one,unless it's some kind of completely malformed liberal Christianity that eradicates Christianityof any doctrine or any miracle.
25:52But at the same time, there seems to be, and maybe it's political, maybe it's wanting to supportPalestine.But have you noticed this?I'm sure in Ottawa you have.Of course.Of course.I can't make sense of it.It's unfortunately completely irrational to me at some times.
26:12Because if anybody actually took the time to be able to investigate the actual teachings of Islamand the principles by which they live out their faith,they're in complete opposition to a lot of what the left wants to see in society.Complete opposition.But one thing is for sure, as long as the left,is pushing for the rights of Islam to grow and to not be attacked and not be questions throughlaws like, you know, like laws that are, that set this precedence for this idea of Islamophobia.You can't speak against Muslims. You can't highlight things that are wrong about their faith.
26:50As long as the left is pushing this idea of no Muslims are misunderstood and Muslims are this andthat Islam is something to be celebrated and it's a religion of peace, it's not a religion of war.and when they believe this stuffand they're preaching it,what is the role of the Muslim other than to say,yeah, I'm great with that.By all means, if you're going to walk up more of me inand we're allowed to be able to do that,
27:13there's this actual video that went absolutely viral in Canada.It terrified so many people.This Algerian man who is standing thereand he's talking to a news reporterfrom an independent news source.And he's like, yeah, absolutely.Keep walking him on a sin.We're in minority right now, but what do you think is going to happen?
27:33While you guys are producing less than one baby per family,we're producing on average six or seven.By the 20, I think he dropped a date.He said within the next 20 or 30 years, something like that,I hope you guys can find the video.He's like, who's going to be the population then,and what do you think is going to happen?We're going to vote.
27:49And when we vote, what do you think is coming to Canada?Sharia is coming.Okay, so would you like to see Sharia law in Canadareplace Canadian law?At some point it will.You know, because we are, we have families,we are making babies, you're not.Your population is going down the slump.
28:05Right?By 2016 Muslims will be the biggest religious group the world over.What are you going to do then?And he's saying that.Now, some people might hear that and they think to themselves,he's just an extremist.He doesn't represent the populace.He might not represent the populace.
28:22But that is exactly what the doctrine teaches.Again, I am not speaking to the average Muslimwho doesn't believe in these things.I am speaking to the theologian.Right.Can you say that man is wrong if you know the theology of Islam?Right.The only good Muslim is a bad one.
28:40I guess it depends on who's defining what good and bad is because the left would say otherwise.Yeah.But it's interesting how there seems to be some sort of mutual support right now.Yeah.And it's terrifying because...Yeah, it is terrifying.And so it's going to sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth here.But I think it's also important to allow the prayer practices and intensities of our enemies,
29:11I'm going to use that word, to encourage us to pray and fast in a more manly manner.When I've had interactions with certain Muslims, and I see, not all of them, of course, and some of it might just be for show, but some of it isn't.See the way they're committed to praying five times a day. See the way they fast. I was at the Atlanta airport and wasn't thrilled to see little prayer rugs there at all, like not at all. And yet I'm like, Christians have to step up. Like we can't be outdone. Yeah. I could not agree with you more that there is something that is supposed to inspire zeal within us to be able to say, why are we so lax when it comes to having the truth, knowing the truth and doing nothing with it, not living it out.which brings us back to that whole incarnation of peace.You know, in Egypt, the amount of Muslims who love usand who treat us with so much love and respectthat the natural responsethat every Christian should have
30:12is to want to extend Christ to that person.But sometimes you feel like you can't.Or if you do, it's got to be done with wisdom at the very least, right?What's my excuse here in the West?There's got to be an awakening for Christians in North Americawhere it's like, what are we doing?And I'm not talking about like Bible thumping kind of Christianity.I'm talking about living out your faith, working out your salvation with fear and trembling,
30:36like Paul says.When are we going to see men of God step up and say, I owe it to the Lord to be his disciple in everything that I do?Where we're going to have women who are going to be proud of the fact that they have found outwhat true Christian femininity means and they celebrate it.If we don't have this, how are we going to inspire the world?to pursue Christ and to know his truth.And so again, I might be viewed in Egypt and not allowed to be speak.What's my excuse now that I'm in North America
31:07and I'm given permission to freely speak?And I can do this in a way they can bring hearts to Christ and I'm not doing it.Father, thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing that with us.I want you to point people to this great stuff that you guys are working on right now,especially these, we talked about these programs,for lack of a better word, for men and women.Where can people learn more about these?If you go to Aba-Moses.org,
31:33Abba-A-B-B-A-Moses.org,the Fellowship of St. Moses Strong is releasing content right now,two 90-day programs, one for men called David's Mighty Men,and one for women called Restoring Eden.We cannot wait to see lives change because of these programs.Yeah.Glory to Jesus Christ.Glory to God.
31:52Maybe it would be funny if we could just end on an orchard.note again. All right, thanks for coming on. What? That's it. Just wanted to come full circle.I love it. Yeah, all right. Thank you.This episode is brought to you by Alloy Health. Menopause is inevitable. Spending years trying to findrelief from the symptoms shouldn't be. Menopause can bring disrupted sleep, hot flashes, brain fog,weight changes, and a lower libido. And women often spend years trying to find relief.Alloy makes it easier to get specialized care without leaving home.Complete a quick online intake, and you'll be matched with a menopause specialized physician
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