Ep. #509: Salman Rushdie, Gina McCarthy
00:00Welcome to an HBOpodcast from the HBO late-night seriesReal Time with Bill Maugh.Start the clock.Do I have to say it this week?I know why you're happy this week.We have an impeachment inquiry.Wait a second, liberals.
01:04It's an inquiry.We may not get a puppy.We're just here to look.And look, I have been hurt too many times.You know, Republicans are definitely the party of rednecks,but Democrats are the party of blue balls.I tell you, I can tell liberals are really excited about this one.You know, why?
01:35Because I was checking out the Halloween storein West Hollywood the other day?Don't ask.And, you know what, is flying off the shelf of the sexy whistleblower?costume.But look, there isa real chance we will knowonce and for all if Trump did the
01:58things he openly admits to doing.Well, he did admit it this week.You know, we saw a transcript of the callthat's at the center of this big controversywith the Ukrainian president where he asksa favor of the Ukrainian president.And this raises some veryserious questions. Like, is
02:15there a foreign country he hasn'tasked to interfere in our elections?Any of them.I mean, look, it may come to nothing.Like I say, I've been down this road before, but you know what?Now it feels good.Feels good.It feels like that moment when a parent goes, you know, the timeouts aren't working.
02:42I'm going to slap them.That's right.Slap your kid, I said it.Not abuse.Slap, that's right.But this one could be different.I mean, the reason, you know, people around the president are scam.because they look like they're complicit.
02:59I mean, in the whistleblowers complaint,it says that maybe 12 or more White House stafferslistened in on the call,and then some of them helped hide the transcripts of the callin a more private server.Remember that term?Trump's got treason on his computer like most men have porn, you know?I got to erase my browser history
03:25before Nancy Pelosi gets home.And Trump...This man...He's such a mental case.Every day he says over and overthat the phone call, it was a perfect call.He said it a million times.Perfect.
03:41Never had a loss for word, Donald Trump.What the fuck is that mean?It's a perfect call like he's the Simone Bilesof talking on the phone.Perfect.He refers to hanging up as nailing the dismount.My question is,but it was such a perfect call?
04:01Why are you behaving like a bedwettertrying to hurry upand wash the sheets.These people,they are so comically ineptat covering up the crimesthat they are committing. The White House, this istrue, wrote two pages of
04:20talking points about this, asinnocent people do,and sent it out to the Republicans in Congress,but also accidentally sent it to the Democrats.This is the politicalequivalent of sending a dick pick to your mom.And, of course,And who do they pick?
04:45Is the centerpiece of this?Rudy Giuliani, who is not a federal employee.You know, he's an Uber driver.He's an independent contractor.He's at the center of all this,pushing the Biden conspiracy theory,meeting with the Ukrainians,which explains Rudy's new nickname,
05:02America's traitor.Yeah, he...Rudy came back from Eastern Europe,and Trump said, where's the dirt?And he said, in my coffin, why?But he is so out of control.Did you see?This is true.
05:23He heard the tape.He was talking to a reporter.He said,It is impossible that the whistleblower is a hero, and I'm not.I will be the hero.When this is over, I will be the hero.And if it wasn't of a Scooby-Dooand those meddling kids, I'd be the hero already.
05:40I mean, really, the Republicans, really, they look desperate.They do.Did you see this?at the whistleblower hearing this week?Devin Nunes from here in California.He claimed the Democratstried to obtain nude photos of Donald Trump.And in the picture, you can tell it is Trump's penis
06:05because he drew it bigger with a sharpie.All right, we've got a great show,Barney Frank, Lynette Lopez, and Noah Rothman are here.And a little letter to be speakingthe former head of the EPA, Gina McCarthy.But first, he is the literary lionand author of the new New York Times wrestling novel,Kishat, which has been shortlisted
06:22for the Booker Prize. Sir, Salman Rushdie.Okay, so, you know, as I was reading yourbook, I was thinking a lot about what I often tellmy audiences, which is that we're so bondedbecause we live on this knife's edge, this dilemma, we all livewith, where you don't want to look at Trumpand what he's doing all the time, becausethat drives you crazy and it normalizes it, but you also can't look away,
06:51because you don't want to be a bad citizen.So for those living on that knife's edge,I said your book might be a verygood tonic because it is totally aboutTrump's America, but it never mentionsTrump. Never mentions him. I just...What can I say? I didn't want his name in my fucking book.But
07:13what I did wantis to look at thiscountry and what the state it's in.And of which he may bea symptom. Yes. As well as acause. That's true. Andso the book is like alike a voyage across America
07:30to try and look at what's going onand looking at it through the eyes of thiscrazy old optimist.Right, and Don Quixote, you know,the other thing I loved about reading a bookis that it brought back memories.This is one book, Don Quixote, the real one,that I read in college.
07:46Me too.You know, and I was so glad they made me.First of all, it's a great book.Yeah.And it's, you know, you're a novelist.This is like the first real great novel, right?It's 1605.Same year as Hamlet.
07:57But before that, that wasn't an art form very much.No, no, he kind of invented it.Right.Yeah.And I don't think people realize how much this is in our culture,even when they don't know it, like Borat.Yes.Is Don Quixote.
08:10Yes.He's on a quest.He's got a Sancho Panza, the Russian guy who was with him.He wants to win over Pamela Anderson.Yes.The honeymooners is Don Quixote.Ralph Cramden is tilting at windmills.He's a dreamer.
08:27He's got Ed Norton, he's the Sancho Panza.It's a great...Well, you know, the quest is one of the most ancient metaphors of life.Because, you know, in a way, the road is the road we're all on, you know, and he goes on the road for us.But this is a crest from a crazy person.From a crazy person.Right.I mean, that's why tilting at windmills.
08:46There aren't really windmills.No, he thinks they're giants.Right.So you love this country.You're here.You chose it.I mean, you were knighted by the queen.I was.
08:57And yet you chose to live here.Isn't that rude?There were people who said that.But, no, I mean, I was in love with America from my early 20s.I came to New York when I was, like, 25.And I just thought, one of these days,I want to put myself here and see what happens.And you became a citizen in 2016.
09:21What timing?Talk about jumping on the sinking shift there.Yeah, I got...I became a citizen just in time to vote,and that went well.But why do you choose this country?What is it that this country that you'd like better?Well, it's a number of things.
09:38First of all, it's a big country.You know, and I come from a big country originally,which is India.Incredibly diverse, incredibly varied.It's, I think, a very optimistic country.You know, I think it's a country in which the subject of hopefulnesshas been a part of what it is to be an American.And you don't think.
09:57think Britain is that? Much less so, I think.Right. I think, no. I mean, Ialways remember Prince Philip sayingthat the reason childrenshould be taught sportsin schools is so that they learn how tolose.I thought, there's,
10:14there it is, we could use a littleof that here. Yeah, a little of that. You know, we have,the opposite. We have trophy syndrome.Anyway, I wanted to send this guy, thishopeful person. Right.Across America, and for him toencounter everythingthat's going on, you know, racism,
10:30drug addiction, corruption,and et cetera, and somehow notlose his essential optimism.Right. It's interesting. A lot of the charactersare sick. It's a sickcountry, it is.You know, one of the charactersis an opioid salesman.
10:46I know this is close to you becauseyou lost your sister from opioid.From opioid overdose, yes.Yeah. And, I mean, this isa corrupt thing that goes on in this country.Yeah, because the thing that struck me, when Iresearching this is not just that there are crooked capitalists.I mean, gosh.
11:06But how it was possible for relatively modest sums of moneyto corrupt substantial parts of the medical profession.So for like $30,000, $40,000.I mean, not life-changing money.It turns out that your integrity isn't that expensive.Right.And not just money.I mean, you know, you're a great satirist
11:25because you make the character have these parts.hole dancers who are...And I've seen this in real life.Anytime you've been sitting in a doctor's waiting room,very often you see someone come in,and that's the pharmaceutical rep.It's always a very attractive woman.And she's, you know,
11:40toting her little sample case behind her.And, you know, hey, doctor, I have new boner pills samples.And he's like, let's try something.Well, there's a true...In my novel, there's a crooked,opioid pharmaceutical entrepreneurwho's based actually on a real personthat I found out about.
11:59And he specifically employed only the most beautiful women he could find,many of whom he found in strip clubs and so on,and sent them to doctors' offices to work their magic.And they did.And suddenly, these doctors, that plus a check,you know, means that they're willing to prescribe these lethal drugs,as they say, off-label, right, for things they're not supposed to be for.And so I thought,
12:27And so my character is a pharmaceutical salesman,so he's very involved in all that.So it becomes an important subplot.So you're obviously known for 30 years nowas one of the great not only proponents,but martyrs of free speech.Where do you put that situation today,the state of free speech?
12:46It is attacked, as I have said many times,not just from the right, but from the left.It's sad that it doesn't even have a mooring spot anymore.Yeah, you're right.And I think it's a, you know,I think I saw some thing in the paper about how this last year was the most dangerous year in history for journalists.I wouldn't doubt it.I mean, more journalists killed in the last year than ever.
13:08And not protected.Trump made a joke about it.Last time he was in Japan with Putin, and remember they were sitting together and he went full Manchurian and said they were asked him about it.And he was like, Putin doesn't have a problem with journalists.You get it?They kills them, L.O.L.Yes.Yes.
13:26journalists in Russia are very bad pedestriansbecause they keep getting hit by trucks.Right.Yeah, they must be looking at their phone.You know, exactly. But, you know, I was itlast week that we read thatTrump had failed to defendan American journalist in Egypt.
13:42Right. And then the Irish came inand rescued him in an hour.Right. You know, so we live inthis moment when it's verydangerous to start telling the truth.So to conclude with what the conclusionof your book is, you know, it's athere's so many great fantastical moments in it,
13:58but at the end it's very real,and you're pretty upfront.Sometimes we can't decipher exactlywhat you're getting at right away.Here you're very upfront.It's about love.Love is the saving thing,so I don't want to...
14:11I've never gone Barbara Walters on anybody.But since it's your thing in your book...Or David Frost, you remember David Frost?What is your definition of love?What is your definition of love, Sam?Well, I tell you what it is.There's one of the great poems of W.H. Orden,which he wrote just before the outbreak of World War II.
14:34In fact, the poem is called September 1st, 1939.The day the war started.Yeah.And it contains this very famous line.It says, we must love one another or die.And I think that's literally true right now.I think this is what young Greta Thunberg is.How do you know what love is?
14:51How do you define it?They've had trouble defining it.Well, in this book, I wanted to look at it.One word.I wanted to look at different...There's many kinds of love.There's romantic love.Sure.
15:00But also in this book, there's the love of country.There's the love of place.There's the love of family.You know, parents and children, brothers and sisters.There's the love of ideas.There's the love of freedom.You know, these are all things that engender and deserve loveand need love in order to keep them alive.
15:20I always thought it was just unselfishness.It's just the opposite of being selfishness.Yeah, because love is...That's when you know when it's love and not lust.Yeah.You know, when I was younger, I love you.It's like, no, I love the way you make me feel.Yeah, yeah.
15:34That's not love.No, love is wanting the other person's well-being...That's right.More than your own.Right.And I want that for you.Salman Rushdie, everybody.Thank you.
15:45It's a great book.You get it.All right, let's meet our panel.Okay.Here they are.He is the associate editor of Commentary magazineand author of Ungeist, Social Justice,and the Unmaking of America.
16:02Noah Rothman, Noah, great to see you.She is a columnist or Business Insider,a contributor on American Public Media's Marketplace.Lynette Lopez. How you doing?Hi. Hi. Great to have you on for the first time.Thanks for having me.And for 16 terms, he representedMassachusetts' fourth district in the U.S. House of Representatives.
16:21He was always my favorite Congressman,Barney Frank.Don't forget to send us your questions for tonight's overtime,so we can answer them after the show on YouTube.Okay.I'm going to get right to my big question.I feel like the dog who caught the car.Because, I mean, I've been back and forth on impeachment,
16:41but last week I was like, we got to impeach.Now that they're going to do it, I'm like,should we?I mean, obviously there's great reasons to do it.But, you know, for a guy who, like,Trump must have an impeachment act a day calendarthat he is used for the last year.So why will this one be different from all the other
17:03times. I feel almost like I'm going to pass over Seder. Why is this crime different fromall other things? For several reasons. First of all, you may remember the last time I was onthe show, I was arguing against impeachment. And I continued until this came out. Frankly, from thepolitical standpoint, the Democrats are much better off without impeachment, because impeachmentwill preempt all other debates. We have a failed presidency. He has not succeeded in making anydeal. He has appointed people to head every important office that he says was incompetent.economically he got a joba tax cut through that
17:36juice the economy temporarilyand the economy is now faving to the pointwhere he is trying to blame his own appointeesto the Federal Reserve for the failurethere's health carethere's climate change and Iwanted to deal with those thingsthe difference is first of all the magnitude
17:53what he has donewell let me put it this waysome of the stuff that they weretalking about impeaching him from beforetrying to cover up that he paid to coverup his sex with Stormy Daniels or being rude to James Comey, which almost everybody wants to be.I almost got the feeling it was like trying Al Capone for tax evasion.But now we got him for extortion and being an accessory, I believe, to murder.
18:23I mean, let's be clear.Yeah.Murdered by the Russians of Ukrainians.We forget what the context is.The Russians, his friend Putin, are invading.a peaceful democratic country, Congress voted to give weapons to that country to defend itselfagainst an attack.He was withholding those until he got threatened even by Lindsey Graham.
18:44That was too much even for him.But what he was saying basically to—he was delaying the self-defense weapons that Ukraine needed.And this argument—oh, well, he didn't explicitly say that.Let's have an analogy.You're walking along and a man comes up and points a gun at you and says, I thinkI'm not going to do me a favor.I really need money and nothing more.He doesn't say, if you don't give me yours, I'm going to shoot you.
19:11I don't think that makes any difference in any kind of criminal case.And that's where we are.I mean, he clearly threatened...All of that, all of that, and it's the right thing to do.It's the right thing to do.That's right to do it.It's the right thing to do.My point is that's why it's the right thing to do.
19:26Even though I don't think it's politically the best thing, you have no choice.It was always the right thing to do.I'm saying that.If you don't stand up for justice at one point,the American people will believe we don't have it.And then what kind of republic do we have? We're done.But Democrats have a real messaging strategy ahead of them.They're going to have to embrace.
19:41And I haven't seen that yet.If you're a Democrat, you have to be very concernedwhen you hear them say, oh, we can walk and chew gum at the same time.You know, we can talk about this presidency.And also make the case against prescription drug pricing.No, you can't.You can make one case well or both cases badly.Well, let me say, first of all, yeah, we have made those other cases.
20:00We won the midterm election.based on them. But there is a clear strategy.And look, the important thing I think to remember is the pivotal wall of Nancy Pelosi.She was not only against impeachment.She was risking political damage from her closest supporters by rejecting it on the groundsthat it wasn't important enough, it wasn't clear enough.She agrees with what as that said, I agree.This is so terrible. This is such an assault like a totally different aspect that she's now going to do it.
20:27Will that resonate east of Libreya?I wonder. I mean, I hear this, this is all I heard on TV this week.This is different because this is so simple, people can understand it.The magnitude is much more important.But have you met the American people?I mean, are there pictures involved?Okay, but the last time we were hurting Hillary Clinton, who no one liked,and now we're hurting Joe Biden, who a lot of Americans kind of like.
20:59But Bill, here's the deal.One of the key things was that there were about three.30 Democrats in the Housewho once seized that were carriedby Trump and held by Republicans.And they were afraid of the political consequencesof impeachment. They unanimouslynow have said two things. First of all,
21:15it's so terrible you can't ignore it. But secondly,they feel they can defend this.I got to agree with, Noah.If we do this, the country's going tobe paralyzed. I'm not saying don't. I'm justgoing to be paralyzed for a very long time.And all the oxygen in the room is going to be takenby this. Okay.
21:31That's why I was against it until now.It's going to be, I'm just asking about the people who matter who are not the, there's 40% for sure probably on both sides.There's 20% in the middle who might be persuadable.Are these people going to be saying, I don't care about Trump's phone call to a country I know nothing about.I care about my phone bill.So here.What are you doing about my phone bill?Right.
21:51About my problems.I just wonder about that.So if it's not, you know, in effort at messaging, then it's really a real strategy.Then you do need Republicans in the Senate to get on board.And if not, he's going to be acquitted in the Senate.You can draw up articles, goes to the Senate.He's definitely going to be acquitted.Now, so let's say he's re-elected.
22:07You cannot underestimate the Republicans.You've already played the impeachment card.That's an academic issue.It is no longer on the table in his second term.So are special counsels, by the way.So essentially you have a president now who's undeterredand unchecked and vindicated in a wayhe's never been before.
22:22Imagine what that Trump president's is.Oh, I think that's totally...He's more constrained that if he paid no price for this at all.But let me go back to what Bill said.I agree.This will, I started out by saying, we had a failed presidency to contest,and he's not going to be able to blame his complete failureto accomplish anything he promised on the impeachment.
22:43But I differ with you to say that people don't just see this as a call to an obscure country.This is American foreign policy, national security.That is what it is.I don't know if it plays that way.Let me ask you this other question about who profits.Let me ask the question, Detective to ask, Qie Bono,who profits from this as far as Democratic?presidential candidates go. At first
23:05I thought it would have been Joe Biden because nowhe's elevated. He's the villainthat the, I mean the hero that the villainis opposing andelevating in this matter. Butyou know what? When more I readabout this, no, I don't think he was doingsomething terrible in Ukraine, but it's
23:21just so, why can't politicianstell their fucking kids get a job?It's too swampy. Get a goddamn job.I mean, this kidhis kid was paid$600,000 becausehis name is Biden, by a gas company in Ukraine,this super corrupt country that just had a revolution
23:38to get rid of corruption. It just looks bad.And the Republicans are geniuses of muddying the water.No, no, it's all going to be about,you did this in Ukraine, well, Joe Biden did this.It's too swampy, and the anti-swamp candidate is Elizabeth Warren.I say Elizabeth Warren gets to win off this way.I say this is the kind of speculationthat may keep us busy when we're bored,
24:01but nobody will know what the American people are ultimately going to say.We'll say this when you talk about Trump versus Biden.Donald Trump's extended family has made more moneyof the connection to Donald Trump in the three years since he was electedthan Hunter Biden could make in 10 lifetimes.Say it.Being accused of having your family profitfrom your political pre-ominence by Donald Trump
24:26is like being called silly by the three stooges.Ivanka's China trademarks.Ivanka's China trademark.I understand that.But that's going to...But that's what about is, I mean, we don't do this on this show.It's too easy.We do better on this show.
24:38I think Elizabeth Warren wins because she is an anti-corruption candidate.Obviously, Trump's children are all degenerates who haven't worked a day in their lives.But...I disagree with that.But, you know...But we shouldn't be the same on the other side.We should do better.If done...
24:56It's not an operational matter.I think, again, we would have been better off if we were not morally compelled.to impeach.I do think that other people see this.And already, by the way,the pro-impeachment polls have gone up 5%for just a few days.So I think that this is an open question.
25:12But who is it going to benefit or not?It's irrelevant.It does sound like something Don Jr. would do.And if Don Jr. did it,it would be all Rachel Matto was talking about.You have to think that Joe Bidenwould have used this as an opportunityto be more visceral and emotional
25:27and lash out and say,how dare you attack my only surviving son like this.if he wasn't scared of a news cyclethreatening Hunter Biden.And that's not a good news.And that, yeah.You guys are, I think that's a flat for the campaign.Nibbling at the edges by trying to do political punditry,
25:43we don't know in the first place.This is an overwhelmingly important issue.I think, and who is going to help.First of all, on the Democratic side, yes, helps Elizabeth Warren's up.But one last point.One of the things we know is the best thing that can happen if you are a Democratis to be attacked by Donald Trump.I wanted to see the two of the women from the Midwest,
26:03Talib and Omar.I was hoping they would lose in the primaryuntil this jerk announces they should go backwhere they came from, and he's re-elected them.He's immunized them from any inter-party criticism.And so, yes, that's true for Warren,but what's true for Biden is,if you are strongly motivated by whining to spite Trump,
26:22you vote for Biden,and it's also clear that Trump regards Bidenas is by far the most dangerous opponent.Those remarks, by the way,made it into articles of impeachmentthat were voted on in the Houseand got 95 Democratic votes,which is illustrative of the Democrats' problem
26:34messaging around the remarks, the go-home remarks.They were actually voted onas articles of impeachment on the House floor.And they're not articles.It's part of the Democrats' problem.They have to say that this is very differentfrom all those other articles.Yeah, but Nancy Pelosi is a very different issue.
26:48But people have been paying attention to this.Nancy Pelosi is a key on this.She was against impeachment on that basis.Most Democrats were against impeachment on that basis.And now you have thistrying to use.American foreign assistance to a country under siege from Russia.Like the day after the Mueller report.
27:06To help yourself politically.Okay.Trump said the other day, anybody voting for Trump,you could add any time you get a poll,you could add 10 points or 7 points or 6 points.Take it any way you want.But I don't know if I consider that to be a compliment.I don't consider that to be a compliment.
27:26What that says to me is people are ashamed.that they are voting for youand they will not say in publicor to another human being,yes, I'm voting for Donald.So I don't consider it a complimentthat you add 10 points or 7 pointsor 6 points, but is it true?
27:41No, it's wrong. By the way,in the 2016 election,the margin by which Hillary Clintonbeat Donald Trump, one of the largest in Americanhistory in sheer numbers,pretty much tracked the national poll.There were three states with very marginal10,000, 18,000,
27:58And as you narrow it down, it's less predictable,but it wasn't off by six points.But the national poll, the overall vote,where Hillary's written,beat him by three plus million votes,tracked the polls.Okay.So I don't know if you saw this,
28:11but Facebook shut down,showed this page,a popular page called,I love you America,which sounds like they love America.I found out they don't.It had 1.1 million fans.Get this, more engagement in the last 90 days
28:25than USA Today,the LA Times,and BuzzFeed.and it turns out it's from Ukraine.These are, and our Russian friends.They never stopped.The 2016 election was all about this, trying to divide us.They put up those memes, and they're still doing it.
28:40Like, did you show the one?Oh, look at this.Veterans deserve the best.Illegals deserve nothing.These things that they put up there, the sound patriotic, like they love America, they don't.So we found some of the other ones, and I'm telling you,these people do not love America.Like, look at this one.
28:56Our troops fight for that oil.Light a candle at the gas station to show you care.Cigarettes cause cancer.Teach your toddler to vape.See, that is not.Get 20% off on your next Uber.Just say the code, let's have sex.Treat yourself.
29:19Make toast in the bathtub.And, of course, don't be a pussy.You can make it.All right.She is the former EPA administrator on the President Obama,and the director of the Center for Climate Healthand the Global Environment.at Harvard.
29:35Gina McCarthy is back with us.Great to see you again.All right.Well, as someone whose jobhad been the number one protector of ourenvironment, these must be verytrying days for you. I mean, it's trying daysfor anyone who picks up the paper. I don't see a
29:56headline, but a week goes bythat isn't like more alarmingthan it even was a couple of years ago. First, it wasthe insect apocalypse. All theinsects are dying. Last weekit was the birds. We're killingI think a third of all the birds in NorthAmerica. Are you doing this just to depress me?
30:12I am doing it to...Well, I want to answer.Yesterday, it was aboutthe oceans. We've made aspitzink out of the oceans, and wecan't live on this planet without the oceans.I just want to know, giveit to me straight, Doc.
30:28Is it too late? Because I know theywouldn't tell us if it was.Because we... I've readquotes from like James Hansen.He said in 2006, we haveto in the next 10 years, decrease thegrowth rate of CO2. If that doesn't happen within 10 years, we're going to pass thesetipping points. Al Gore, Inconvenient Truth, the world will reach the point of no return.
30:49If drastic measures weren't taken, it would reduce greenhouse gases by 2016.I see we passed 4.415 parts per million of carbon dioxide. I remember when they said youcan't pass 400. So what say you?Well, what I say is that we have a big challenge ahead, but it's not too late.And I say to you that we have to work together, I can't by myself tell you that we're not past tipping points.But if you can't do something about this shit, then stop worrying about it.Let's just do what we can do.There are so many things that we can do.
31:27How we focus on that?Big good stuff.I read Al Gore's op-ed in the New York Times last Sunday.And, you know, I didn't realize we actually are so close.We're so close.some of the things he points out, as recently as 2014,electricity from solar and wind was cheaper,only in about 1% of the world.
31:48Five years later, these are the cheapest sourcesin two-thirds of the world.We actually are not that far away.Germany gets all of its electricity down from renewables.And Bill, you asked me about how do I feel now.There's all kinds of rollbacks at EPA going on,and I get that.But there's two things that, you know, really,
32:09I keep telling myself every morning.One is that they're not particularly good at governing.So they stink at rollbacks.They have an 8% approval rating in the courts.So we're doing pretty good.Oh.And the other thing is that...So everything we read about that they try to do...
32:28Oh, yeah, they do a lot of announcements.Well, if you're trying to do it...But you're saying it's not happening.No, because...Well, and I'm saying that what you're trying to dois come to a specific outcome.contrary to law and science,and when it gets to the courts,
32:42they don't tend to appreciate that.Right.But the other thing is thatwe've got to stop focusingeverything we think abouton climate or other thingsabout what Trump is or isn't doingor what is administration is doing.
32:55Let's talk about what's really going onin the real world.You mentioned that.Clean energy is going gangbangersbecause it's cheaper, it's better.The air is cleaner.Oh, that's too.Oh, my God.
33:07You meant...You meant gangbusters.Did I say gangbangers?Yes, you did.Well, that was because I listened to your monologue.You're right.Blame it on me.Mr. Pottymouth.
33:20It's infectious.But let's start that over again.Yeah.A lot of good things that happened.And the best one was...Was the gang...Oh, no.Was Greta Turnberg?
33:34You're at the UN climate...I mean, you know about this young lady from Sweden?She's a teenager. She sailed across the ocean.Show it. I mean, this has already, I think, become iconic, but I want to show it tonight.You have stolen my dreams and my childhood with your empty words.And yet, I'm one of the lucky ones.People are suffering. People are dying.Entire ecosystems are collapsing.
34:05We are in the beginning of a mass extinction.And all you can talk about is money and fair tales of eternal economic growth.It's pretty powerful.And, you know, this is because kids all over the world went on a climate strike.Apparently, they're pissed off that we've robbed them of their entire future and killed the planet.They're always so picky, those kids.Yeah, they're so picky the kids.But it reminds me a little of the Vietnam protests when I was young
34:37because they have skin in the game.unlike other generations, they really feel it and they see itand they know Christ, what is the world going to be like when I'm 40?I think there is a feel right now that we have reached a tipping point.We're not going to tolerate it anymore.And we recognize that we have a moral responsibility and we have to need it.Let me ask this. I saw on the view, because I never miss it.Joy said something that I've said many times.
35:09which is that I think, I'm sorry, people don't like to hear it,but if you are not doing anything for the environmentor you're denying climate science and you have kids,you're kind of a lousy parent.And Abby Huntsman took great umbrage at that,but I don't see what's wrong with playing the bad parent card.How can you not say that you're a bad parent if you have a kidand you're not doing something for this problem?
35:35Couldn't you also say that you're a bad parentif you were to allow a child to suffer that kind of anguish,real, moving, pure pain over something that is frankly,in erroneous assumption, the notion that capitalism,that economic growth is the problem here.It's frankly not true.The developing economies, the developed economies of the world,have contributed more to the reduction of climate change emissions.
35:59How you figure that?Because they've planted 19 million.We've planted 19 million acres of forest.But because they produce.We have emissions from power plants,fossil fuel generating power plants at 1985 levels.Whereas the developing world is responsible for some of the worst environmentaldisasters in human history because they don't have a robust middle class.
36:17Can we just step it back a little bit?Because I think what you're talking about is just feeling that that young woman is distraughtand I don't want her to be.And the only way that she's going to feel better is if she sees a genuine reaction aboutlistening to her and doing something about it.There are things that we can do today that will make her life easier and healthier,never mind what it's doing for the planet.And I'm sick about talking about the planet instead of talking about people and our health,
36:50our moral responsibility.The planet doesn't care if we're here.We care if we give our kids a future.I disagree with some of what she said.She's very eloquent.I think some of what she said was wrong.I do not think that capitalism.is the problem. But that's a lesser mistake than Donald Trump, not only denying it intellectually,
37:13but undoing every public policy and get his hands on in which we try to alleviate things.And as far as kids are concerned, I speak to young people. And I and others, liberals have beentroubled for some time that younger people don't vote enough because we think they'd vote more our way.What I welcome is their understanding now that this is their issue. And you're right, it's like Vietnam.there was not a lot of student activity protest in Vietnamuntil they started drafting students.That's when the colleges got involved, and I was there.And now, what you are, I would speak to students and say,
37:43look, I don't understand why you're not upset about climate change.I'm going to be dead by then.But it's going to have a terrible effect on your life 20, 30 years from now.I welcome this.See, I disagree with that.I don't think it's, I think that's an old talking point.I don't think it's 20, 30 years away.It could be two.
37:59It's now.And it could be two years.You know, the ocean.absorb most of the crap we putup there. We don't know. We don't know whatthat point is. I disagree with this case.I think we had to say you yourselfnoted the 400, over 400,
38:13making very specificshort-term predictionsweaken the case if they are notfully borne out.I don't see thatsaying it's immediate and then peopledon't see anything. That helps theirargument. I think it's important to say... And there have been
38:28a lot of those... Yes, but I thinkinstead of just rebuking those, you'rebut also rebukes the people who are much guilty of saying there's no problem at all.And I always say we should do everything we can.Exactly how many years it's going to take, that's not the issue.The issue is we should do everything we can as soon as we can.I don't think it's useful to feel any kind of anger toward the young kids who are out there protesting.It's completely useless.
38:52The most useful thing we can do is push politicians to actually enact some kind of policythan an exchange and works toward this problem.And I don't care if it's a problem that's coming within two years or five years or ten years.10 years or 20 years, it is coming.We do know that. So complaining about the kids is just like a waste of everyone's time.Political consensus is the most important point because, as Director McCarthy, you said,regulatory overreach is a problem that hits the courts and the courts push back.And you know better than anybody else that places like, for example, in Michigan versus EPA in 2015,
39:25where we had a pushback on regulatory overreach that established a precedent now that forces regulators to concern themselves with costs.I never mentioned regulatory overreach.I mentioned regulatory.Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this.Have you ever criticized those like Trump who say there's not a problem at all?Are you for any action here?Absolutely, of course.That's a draw man.
39:46This is more important than winning a high school debate.Well, whatever you haven't said anything now?Can you show me the writing?Have you been critical of the people who say it's not a problemand we shouldn't do anything about?Absolutely.You should Google me.I write about this pretty frequently.
39:58What I also write about is the extent to which the advocacy along these lines,by Democrats and liberals who embrace ideas like the Green New Dealhave failed to convince people who are skepticsbecause it is not about environmental remediation.It is about ubiquitous health care provisionsand free college tuition.I think people do feel more about,are more conscious of this problem.
40:18I think that the kids marching is important,even though they have their hip-hop and their annoying TV, I guess.I don't know how many of you went to these marches,but they felt just like the 60s and 70swhen people realized that the world wasn't going the direction they needed.And they were demanding adults to stand up and do something about it.What's wrong with that?Unless they become mobilizations for voting.
40:42But I would say this, again, the Green New Deal's a strong man.No, I said this.I'm sorry, Congressman.But they can do things themselves.We can do things in our community.I don't need federal regulation if I can get everything else to happen.It's in their schools, their families.Then you disagree with Greta, because she wasn't...
41:04I don't disagree with...Let me finish.She was there saying you...Who side are you on?I'm just kidding.Mine?I'm on the side of politically effective action.She was correctly saying she needs governments to do things, not just the parents.
41:19And I do think that's it.But I want to go back to Green New Deal, and I said that's where to come out.The Democrats have ignored it.It was a talking point for a few people.It's getting some lip service.it's a straw manto have the Green New Deal.It's certainly going to be in every campaign ad the Republicans
41:36run. And I wish they hadn't done it.We can't talk about these student marches without talking aboutwhat they're advocating for, which is very...Yes, you can also not pick on the student marches as your storm man.Talk about what the government is doing. What of theDemocrats...We have a climate change on the White House.No, one 2020 candidate who hasn't endorsed
41:54in theory... In theory, in theory,the Green New Deal's recommendations.And Democrats have run the House for this year.What action has the Democratic majority taken?They've been very active on a lot of issueson climate change that you think was bad.That sort of makes my point, though.What actions have they taken?
42:11Okay, but Noah.They've tried to block some of the...I haven't Googled.Goalbacks.But I did read the one...I read the article you wrote.It was called the Climate Strike,which I just was talking about with the kids,
42:23is all about indoctrination, not science.Yeah.Now, you know your name?after a guy who had to save the worldwhen it was about to be extinct.Well, look, one of the...Why is the...What?
42:37I know...I never heard of him. What did they do?Why is... I noticed that seems to be the newtalking point, and Republicans have had manytalking points over the years forgetting away with, I think, murder on this issue.What does that mean, indoctrination?This is the idea that the kids don't really have the
42:57science, they're just being misled by teachers and professors?One of the sources of frustration for me on this is that when you push back on some of theseprojections, which go from the United Nations for IPCC, for example, it go 50, 60, 80 yearsout using a series of variables, and you express some skepticism about that.They push back on you say, you're not, you don't, you haven't paid attention to the science.We're all working off the same documents like the IPCC report from 2001, which projecteda whole lot of milder winters, which didn't materialize.The 2007 IPC report, which forecast that next year,
43:29there would be so much drought that we'd have a food problem.We'd have food shortages.Precisely the opposite.Rain-fed agricultural yields are up in the development.I read your column, and I couldn't tell whether you were a climate change denieror you just wanted the kids to get off your lawn.I don't think it's useful to judge these kids for being scared about something that is real.When the people who are leading this country,
43:55we have a climate change denier in the White House who is running this.country who is doing more harmthan any of the noise that these kids could possiblybe making. And it is veryequally as unuseful to conflatedenying that the climate has changedwhich then not with denying thatthe solution to it is dismantling
44:12what actions of Trump do you disagree with?What actions of Trump do you disagree withdo you disagree with his, do you agree or disagreewith his pulling out of the Paris talks? Do you agreewith his rollback on the clean air andtaking away California's thing? Let me ask youthose two specific. California andthe Paris climate? Yes, because Paris was
44:30toothless, and we've also adhered to ourself-set recommendations.No, for the California... If it was toothless,you ask a question, I'm asking, answering it.No, for the California issue, but it'sa federalism issue. No, I think it's a federalism.But not a climate change issue. No, it's a federalism issue.Is there any issue? Is there any issue? Is there any issue?
44:46Yes, but I'm trying to getwhether there was any of the anti-effits to deal with climate changeactions that Trump administration has takenthat you disagree with, based on climate change.Based on climate, I'm not exactlysure what issue you're referring to.But on those two, let's do the rollbackof the clean power plant.
45:04Let's do the trying to getthe waiver that Californiahas always had off the books.Talk to me about moving forward.California, if people don't know, has led the...No auto manufacturers stood up and saidas a good thing. But again, if we go back to fossil fuel fireplants, we're at 1985
45:20emissions, and it's not a result of governmentregulation entirely. It's a result of the factthat we've had a revolution inenergy production in this country that has madenatural gas, a cleaner burning bridge fuel,a more productive, cost-efficient, consumer-efficient.Are we should let the market deal with climate change?Yes, it's doing a better job.
45:37No, no. Let me, I have to ask you guys.You follow this.You follow this.You cannot tell me one of the anti-climate change effortsof the Trump administration that you disagree with,and please don't evade you're not sure.You follow things very closely.You're giving us a lot of specifics.
45:54Trump has done a number of things to undo effortsto deal with climate change.Do you disagree with any of them because of climate change?Do you deny climate science?No, I do not deny the fact that the climate is dynamicbecause we have a dynamic climate.I don't think anybody who thinks that.Okay, my answer.
46:11We have no.We have no.We have no.So you're not worried about what she's doing on.I'm not worried about climate change being a home.Do you disagree with anything he's done?I'm cutting back.I don't deny that.
46:23At the same time, the efforts to mitigate it,the efforts to mitigate it,are better in the developed world with a middle classthat demands that sort of thing than in Chinaor India or anywhere else that is contributingto greenhouse gases. We need federalleadership. We need an international effort.We need kids to go to new rules, everybody.
46:43Thank you, Farall. It's time for new rules.That's what we need to do.All right.All right, new rule. We've had a good run, but it's time toadmit this whole USA, we're number onething, might be over.Look at this kid. She sailed athe Atlantic and face down the UN.
47:00The only time an American teenagermakes that face is when her mom takes awayher phone.New Rule, someone has to explain to me how the newgender neutral vibrator, the Envy,is different from the old genderneutral vibrator, the Schwinn bicycle seat.New Rule, since Sylvester Stallone
47:31keeps updating the Rambo and Rocky characters,he now has to do the same for the firstmovie he ever did, the Partyat Kitty and Studs.That's a real thing.That's the softcore porn that Stallone did before Rocky.Okay, here's the pitch for the new one.Kitty and Stud throw another party,
47:50and they lure you out of retirement.And even though you told yourself that you quit tapping Kitty's ass years ago,that ass needs you and you tap it one last time.No, well, we must admit global warming is out of controlwhen you can buy the new snowballs.Freezable underwear that,keeps your testicles cool on hot days.Yes, snowballs, because for some reason,
48:22nobody thought to call it numnuts.New Rule, don't drink before taking the SATs.But if you do, drink this.So if you throw up on the test, you can say,I got 1,800 on my SATs.And finally, new rule, white liberalshave to start listening to me when I tell them,you can't be more offended than the victim.
48:52It happened again last week when presidential contenderAndrew Yang faced criticism.because he said that SNL should not have fired comedian Shane Gillisof a racist comments Gillis made about Asians.That's when the Internet did what it does bestand deemed Yang a racist for not being offended.Because if he wasn't offended, well, someone had to be.There was a study down last year
49:27where people were asked to rate their feelings about various races,and white liberals were the only group that has a biased against themselves.they want to hang out only with people who are not themthat's like your mother preferring the neighbor's kidsthere is a weird self-loathinggoing on among white liberals and it's not helping anyonelifting up those who society has cheated or forsakenthat's liberalism hating all things white
49:59is just tedious virtue signalingyou look like Justin Timberlake and bad teacherI just hate slavery so, so much.Slavery's the worst.If I could go back in time and undo slavery, I would.I hate it.The answer to mass incarceration is to stop putting undeserving blacks in prison,not to put more white people in Twitter jail.
50:36Every thought needs a disclaimer now.The other day I heard a guy say,I realize I'm only speaking as a white male,and I acknowledge our tragic history of oppressionbut you left your lights on.Look, white privilege is real.And yes, you have some advantages for being white.But you also have some disadvantages.
50:58Many of you were born with a terrible personality.That's not.I didn't ask for that.I'm sorry.They do.You know what?I'll fire the director.But folks, you don't need to advertise it.
51:28What's with the I'm embarrassed to be white subgenre on the internet?I'm finding myself constantly embarrassed to be white.I'm watching Tall Girl.I remember been so embarrassed to be white.Retweet if you're embarrassed to be white.Jesus, fuck.Rosanna Arquette tweeted,I'm sorry I was born white and privileged.
51:46It disgust me, and I feel so much shame.Exactly.You think it's hard being a black manand a white man's world?Try being a white woman who feels bad about you being a black manin a white man's world.Look, none of the other people.chose to be born white,
52:08not even Ed Shearren.So just stop.Because you know what might be the worstpart of white shame?You bore the fuck out of black people atparties.You meet black people and saythings like Black Panther was so
52:34meaningful to me.No, it wasn't. It wasn'ta cultural milestone for you.I have taken an informal samplingamong some black folks I know. And theconsensus seems to be awarenessYes, is great. White people certainly should acknowledge they've had it easier go of it.But black folks are not asking whites to always be flagellating themselves.
52:55Because it makes everything awkward.Awkward. It puts the burden on black people to absolve you.It's really...It's...It's...It's really asking black people to, again, do something for you.Forgive me.Absolve me.
53:16Recognize that I'm one of the good.White people. Jesus.Haven't black people suffered enough slavery?Jim Crow, and now I've got to make some yuppie feel better about himself?As a black friend of mine said, and I quote,I'm doing I.I don't need your pity.Here's my question.
53:40How many white liberals would pay actual reparations?Real money taken out of your paycheck every week.If you really feel this bad about the whole race thing,If being white is really this toxic for society, let's tax it.Let's tax whiteness.A hunky tax.We'll do it like carbon offsets.We'll calculate your exact level of white lameness.
54:14And then charge you a Caucasian offset fee.Based on a mean percentage of household income indexed to the net,not gross national product, and average with the consumer price index.We will come up with just the right dollar figureto offset the exact amount of you being a fucking loser.A lame white loser.Now pay up, you fucking white piece of shit.You fucking worm.
54:44I mean, that's what you want to hear, isn't it?Isn't it, maggot, you fuck?You want to be told what a disgusting piece of white shit you are,you white piece of shit.I'm getting into this.Look.conclusion, I just want to say America has done a lot of good things and a lot of bad ones,and the number one bad one with no close second is racism. It's a sorry history, and we're not
55:14done with it. And yet, black and white increasingly intermingle. We get to the finish line onrace by just being with each other more. We don't need awkward. We need laughing with each other,finding out what's good about each other, befriending, intermarrying, enjoying somebody's company,without thinking every minute,I'm with a person of color.You're with a person.And you are not uncooledjust because you're white,
55:50and it is not a crimeto know all the words to sweet Caroline.All right, that's our show.We're off next week.Dan, and back on the 11th.I'll be at the Orpheum Theaterin Memphis, October 4th,and at the Mirage.
56:03My home in Vegas, October 11th, the 12th.I want to thank Noah Rothman,Lynette Lopez, Bonnie,Frank, Tina McCarthy, and Salman Rusty.Stay tuned for all.overtime on YouTube.Good night.Catch all new episodes of real time
56:15with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10or watch them anytime on HBO On Demand.For more information,log on to HBO.com.
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