Ep. #572: Donna de Varona, Ben Shapiro, Malcolm Nance
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00:34Late Night series, Real Time with Bill Maugh.No, I mean, I know why you're happy.I love it. Routy Krenz, like the old Arsenio show.Wow.But, hey, woo.Remember that?Woo, I love woo-woo.Okay, but that's enough.
01:39But, hey, first of all,we should wish Obama happy 60th.He turned 60 years old.Wednesday, big day.And, you know, they had ahuge party, like 500people planned, you know, the moversand shakers of the world, and then they had to
01:57scale it way back because of COVIDand it just looked too ostentatiousand tough times, you know.So now it's like, oh, Jeff Bezos had toself-park his rocket.It's, now it's...But, no, this is turninginto quite the disaster, because
02:15come on, a party for 500of the top Democrats gets canceled at the last minute.You know how much leftover baby there is?They think they eat babies.No, don't the Democrats have bigger problems?I mean, this is day four of the Andrew Cuomo death watch.We've been following that story?The government in New York.
02:42Yes, the report came back.Yes, slees.Democrats are dropping him like he's made of gluten.No, really?He has no friends now.Biden called on him.to resign. Nancy Pelosi called on him to resign.Chuck Schumer, yes, called him to resign.
03:06Anthony Weiner called for a double date.That's a different kind of guy.No, I mean, everyone ispiling on now. Over in New Jersey,Chris Christie said, you know, when I was governor,I pulled out my salami, it was actually my lunch.I wrote a ton of man, butthe guy I feel bad for, Chris Cuomo.
03:31I mean, Cuomo's brother, because he's on CNN.He's got to report the news.news and this is the news? I mean, it's tough.It's like if Steve Duceyhad to report on his brother,Dumber.So, yeah, no, it's...They say it's grim at the governor's
03:49mansion there in New York. Cuomo is gettingso desperate that he'salone in the mansion, screaming all day long.I bet if I look like Gavin Newsom,they would have liked it.Well, Gavin Newsome, you know, thisis the stupidest thing. California. Maybe they'llget the hint.
04:09This is an one over-regulated, too manylaws, too many stupid laws, stupid regulations.Number one, this recall bullshit, which we should notbe doing.Applaus.Thank you.We got to invest in the applause, sorry.It'll pay for itself in a year.
04:33But there's stupid recall.And because, you know, he's popular in the state,but the people are not going to come out to votebecause they don't think it's that, you know,it's in the best.bag, and it's not. Newsom's only up by three points, but he is up eight with matrodes.But yes, our state, I guess like everybody else, everybody masked here today, we're following all the rules.More places now demanding masks everywhere you go. Disney now says masks are now required at their
05:07theme parks and requiring all their workers to be vaccinated. They are taking all precautions.Now when the prince wakes sleeping beauty, he does it with an elbow bump.It's terrible.Terrible, I couldn't get through the joke.It's terrible.Also, the Pentagon, mandatory vaccinations for now everybody's serving, yes, in the armed services.Navy, you know, the Navy is the most vaccinated branch, which makes sense,because when you're living on top of each other on a ship,
05:44it's easy to catch COVID.And also feelings.But, you know, the media, they get everybody wound up about this stuff.Not that it isn't real, but now they're worried about this variant of the variant.Apparently, this shit gets passed around like a Netflix password.I mean, this...Oh, wow.And they say if it is as contagious as the Delta variant, the CDC,
06:15may recommend that when you go into a restaurant,now you're going to have to leave your mask onall the way through the appetizer.But, hey, it sure hasn't stopped.Lollapalooza.And you know what?You know me, I'm always for life continuing.I know there are bad things out there.
06:40I'm for that.Life going on.Go on, life.But they say, you know, Lollapalooza,it could be a super spreader event.I mean, 100,000 peoplewere there jam-pack watching Journey and Limp Biscuit.Wait, when they said COVID ruined your taste, they weren't kidding.
07:00No, no, all right, I kid Limp Biscuit and Journey.That's fine.All right, we've got a great show.We have Malcolm Nance and Ben Shapiro.But first up, she is a two-time Olympic gold medalist in swimming.My old job.No, that doesn't really tip that.And founding member of the women's sports policy working group,
07:21Donna DeVirona.Hello.How are you?It's great to see you.Nice to see you.I love your glasses, by the way.Oh, thank you.It hurt.
07:39It hurt me.But that's not why you're here to talk about,is my face.But it's great to be able to see you,and you look great.Thank you.You look great.You were, well, you're an Olympic champ.
07:52You should look great.And the Olympics are wrapping up.And we're here to talk about the trans situation.I mean, this is the first year that trans athletes have been allowed in the Olympics.Just now, as they're wrapping up, what I read is they didn't do it too good.Well, I mean, it's an emerging issue within women's sports.But first of all, I just want to shout out to our women Olympic athletes that right now would finish fourth in the medal count.Four.
08:25And I'm going to get to the transgender athlete discussionbecause this is really important.And thank you for giving us the time to talk about what our group is doing.I mean, it's a big issue now.And, of course, the reason I say it's surprising they didn't do wellis because a lot of people are saying, okay, if someone is,no, I may get the terminology wrong,please don't, like, send me a bomb.
08:52It's all changing.We're trying our best.But born, like, with a penis, like a man.testes and testosterone and all that stuff, and then transition.I mean, there have been certainly situations where that has happened in other sports,and the person has had a tremendous advantage.Well, here's the deal.I think, first of all, the nomenclature is confusing.
09:14And if you talk about a transgender athlete, like the Canadian star playerthat just helped Canada win the gold medal.But not born with the penis.No, no.But she identifies now.Okay, but we're talking about biology.We're talking about what would make someone stronger, faster, have more endurance.I mean, we have seen situations like, I think, it's Tori Bowie, is one of the fastest women in the world.
09:40Yes.Right.Okay, I think she's been vested by 15,000 men and boys in her record.Which is not an insult to her.It's just saying there are differences.I think Veronica Ivy was a cyclist.Yes.Okay.
09:56was not doing well as a manand then was the champion as a woman.Fallon Fox is aM.MA fighter. I think she cracked the other woman's skull.C.C. Tyfer, I believe.That's the Connecticut case where C.C. Typhers is a high school athletecompeted as in the women's category,said she was mitigating her testosterone,
10:23suppressing it.but dominated that category for a long time.So in Connecticut, you can't discriminate on gender identity.When she competed against men, she came in like,she was 350th, and then she was the champion.This is just the argument.And what you're trying to do is find a middle ground, I really think.Between, how can we be fair to, let's say, women classic?
10:46Right.But also allow a place.We don't want to discuss.Scriminate against trans people.No one wants that.No one's smart.We don't either, but we're saying there's a way to accommodate.So what's that middle ground?
11:06Well, the middle ground, according to us, is that there are sports that do accommodate.Equestrian doesn't matter, male or female.Most of the British team...So you're saying they can only play some sports?That's right.And you can handicap.If you look at the sports community, it has accommodated a range of differences.Paralympics, Special Olympics.
11:27They didn't exist in my time.We open the door, and even in the Olympics, you have weight categories.Heavyweight wrestler isn't going to wrestle a lightweight wrestler.So there's ways in which we can accommodate this, but neither side wants to have the discussion.And it's very important to have this discussion, especially in schools when young kids need exercise.You know that.Need health and need to participate.And you're so right, we need to have the discussion.
11:53And if you even broach this, see, this is part of the problem, is that you get called,called transphobic. That's right.And it's not transphobic. Phobia means fear.Right.And yes, I'm afraid you're nuts.If you think...If you think...If you think just having a discussion
12:14means we're afraid of something.We're not afraid. This is all very new.It isn't. This is new stuff.So listen, in theguidance on the Olympic coveragethat Fox Sports put out,not to use the word,two-word phrase, born male,
12:30to describe Laurel Hubbard.She competed as,she is truly trans.She is.Right.Coral Hubbard was,competed as a manuntil he was 35 years old,
12:43then started to transitionand qualified under the Olympic Committee rulesand even our NCAA rulesbecause he mitigated his testosterone levelsand had an operation,got rid of the family jewels,and they let Laurel compete in the women's category.Okay, at age 43.
12:59That's right.And did not meddle.That's right.But 43 seems very old for a weightlifter.I seem to remember at 43 a couple of times just pick, oh, shit.Well, I passed that age a long time ago.I passed that age a long time ago.And you know what's happening now?
13:19The International Olympic Committee went ahead and made these policies,and now they're saying, oh, wait a minute, we have to review this.Maybe we made a mistake.Maybe we made policy before we really thought about biology.for his fairness.Okay, but listen to the statement.No one is born with a gender identity.I don't know about it.
13:38Everyone is born a babyand their gender is assigned to them by doctors.Now, again, this is not anything against transor denying that that happens,that things don't quite match up.Right.But this attempt to overturn the whole worldand pretend that this is something,
13:59that we just, you know, a penis, well,could be an indicator of anything.You know, like,it's, it's, it seems,that seems too big an ask.It's too big, and what we're finding out in the sporting community,if you look at track and field where they're trying to balance this out,is that policy's gone too fast ahead of research and fairness
14:25and opening it up so you can accommodate transgender athletes in theright place. For instance, Quinn, who helped Canada win soccer, the gold medal.Again, born a woman, decided I don't identify as a female. I identify as transgender, non-binary,and please call me they. But we're talking about what gives you strength, speed, and endurance.There's no question about biology. That's why we want to protect Title IX.But let me, then this is the American Medical Association. We'll advocate for the removal of sexas a legal designation on the public portion of the birth certificate. So what,Again, we see a penis or a vagina.
15:03Who knows?There's an article this week in Substance, Barry Weiss's subject, Katie Herzog is an investigative reporter.This is an unnamed professor, but this is what's going on.She is claiming, I don't see it refuted in medical school.Professor, first of all, he apologized to the class for saying when a woman is pregnant,which implies that only women can get pregnant.He apologized for that.I'm on your page right now.
15:36What's my page?My page is we have to distinguish between gender identity and biology.And that's why we want to protect Title IX, 50 years of lawthat absolutely condone separate sex competition.And that's why we did so well in the Olympics.And we want to protect that law.Here's what I think is so telling.And again, I'm always on the page on this.
16:06show about, you know, the Democrats lose elections because they strike people as the party withno common sense. You know, apologizing when you say when a woman is pregnant, strikes me as nocommon sense. Here's the money shot for me. A student in the class said, I still think there's asmall percentage of instructors who are true believers of this kind of stuff, as she's talking about,but most of them are probably just scared of their students. I think that's so telling. The childrenare running the asylum everywhere in America.This is what the problem is.Anyway, thank you for coming.
16:40Thank you.Thank you.Thank you.Keep swimming.All right.Let's meet our panel.All right, here's our panel.He is a best-selling author,
16:57a career U.S. counterterrorism intelligence officerand an MSNBC contributorand a great patriot Malcolm Nance is over here.And he is the host of the Daily podcast,The Bun Shapiro Show,and the best-selling author of the authoritarianmoment. He's taking over all media.Ben Shapiro
17:20is over here.Okay, great to have you guyshere. This could get to be quite abrawl.No. But no.But I just want to know, I consideryou both friends. So,you know, just
17:35gloves off, butlet's be nice.I especially appreciate you being here because this is a tougherroom for you to play.But let's start with...Maybe not. Maybe you're peopleinfiltrating.my audience.
17:54But I thought, with Tucker Carlson in Hungary right now,kissing up to the dictator Victor Orban,I thought it would be a great moment to talk about your book,The Authoritarian Moment,which I must say, I'm not being snarky here.When I saw the title, I thought,oh, he's writing about Trump.But you're not.
18:13Your thesis is the authoritarian moment is coming from the left,and I must say, when I read the book,I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying.I certainly have made that case myself.I might have been doing some of it just two minutes ago.I just wanted to know, where's the other half of the book?It just, I mean, yes, I agree with you.Woke Twitter has power.
18:33People who think they don't have power, they have power in a million different areas.It's just soft power.I just find it perverse that you find that less alarmingthan the old-school kind of authoritarianism that Trump and his ilk are going for.I mean, ignoring elections.He's only not president because it didn't work.not because he didn't try to pull it off.And here's a new poll from Business Insider.
19:0355% of Republicans say the traditional American way of lifeis disappearing so fast we may have to use force to save it.47% of Republicans say it may be time to take the law into our own hands.That's not more alarming to you?Well, I mean, clearly that is alarming to me.I think that when it comes to Republicans suggesting that it's time to takelaw into our own hands. The answer is we do have a democracy in this country. We do haveelections in this country. And the point of the book really is that for all of Donald
19:34Trump's attempts to overturn the elections, the institutions did not stand with him. There was nota single major institution in American life that stood with Donald Trump. When it came to the riotslast year, every single major institution mobilized on behalf of Black Lives Matter fromfrom corporate America to people like Vice President Kamala Harris, who is urging people to bail outrioters in Minneapolis. The question is not whether authoritarianism exists on all sides.I think there are plenty of authoritarians on all sides.The question is, where does the institutional power lie?And if the answer is that Donald Trump tweeting
20:02and being a jerk is the essence of authoritarianism,as opposed to, say, Joe Biden, the president of the United States,saying this week that he doesn't care whether it's constitutionalfor the CDC to extend the eviction moratorium,he's going to do it anyway.I mean, that seems rather annoying-ranking.It seems like only one side of this is institutional.In other words, the power that comes from the left
20:21is all soft power.It's all from social pressure.It's like gossip in a village.It's like gossip in a village.Gossip in a village is very powerful.It can get you killed.But it is soft power and it can change.That's different than the guys who actually want to subvert the election.
20:42Steal the votes.He would still be there.You say the institutions held by a hair.What if a different guy was the Secretary of State in Georgiawho he called up and asked to find me 11,000 more votes?help me.Yeah, well, you know, it's a nice title for his book,and I think a lot of people who would assume
21:03that he's talking about real authoritarianismcould be trapped into giving you 2899.But for those of us who actually...I said be nice.It only lasted two minutes.That was pretty nice.But let's talk about bare facts.I mean, you're talking about a guy, Donald Trump,
21:24who literally tried to support.who has probably suborn perjury in order to overthrow a duly elected government andmanaged to mobilize 40,000 people, right, to lay siege to the capital, where over a thousandor more entered the building, destroyed parts of the building, fought physically, law enforcementthere in order to stop American democracy. Now, I don't know about you, but I've been aaround a little bit, and I've seen some dictators and warlords and authoritarianism.That is authoritarianism. You can't say, some guys are writing on Twitter and they made, you know,Sean King want to sell his house. That's, like you say, it's just gossip, right? Twitter will not
22:12kill you unless you use that social pressure in order to achieve an action on the street.And believe me...Well, I'm going to address that in a minute, but I want to...You can answer this first.I appreciate it. A couple of quick things.One, 40,000 people did not assault the Capitol.Okay, it's just factually inaccurate.There were maybe 1,000 people that is not making light of the evil of those people
22:34who all will end up rotting in prison as they should.How many people came to that rally?Were all of those people assaulting the Capitol?Is that your contention now?They all marched on the Capitol, and then the leading edge attacked the building.It's just inaccurate, Malcolm.Yeah, it isn't. No.Yes, it is inaccurate, Malcolm.
22:47Max, Ben.Yes, yes, you're not mentioning them.Okay, all right.None of us saw what we saw.Let's just say some of them milled around outside.and wait and 30,000 of state.Wait, hold on.I'll tell you why this is an important point.
23:01We have a short amount of time.This is very quick.I'll tell you why that's an important point,because Malcolm you have a terrible habitof conflating people who do actual violent activitywith a broader rubric of everyone, for example,who voted for Trump, which was 75 million people.And that really is ugly.
23:16I mean, you've tweeted about me, for example,that I'm such a racist, I shouldn't be allowed in Washington, D.C.That sounds rather authoritarian in an attitude to me.I've never called for you to be kicked offof MSNBC, I've never called for anybody not to buy your book.I've never called for anybody to censor you on Twitter.I'm talking in my book about the attitude that suggests that people who are outside theOverton window should meet with not only a sort of social ostracization, but they should
23:40meet with real-world consequences that do affect their lives.Let me tell you something.Two years ago, I was invited to Auschwitz for the Auschwitz Foundation, where they wereholding a conference called.Are you going to lecture me on the Holocaust?No, no, no.I'm going to tell you what the conference was called.The conference was called Never Again, Really?
23:59Now, when I have, we're at the point where people were talking about the rise of authoritarianismand autocracy around the world in wondering, are they're going to have another Bosnia,are they going to have another Rwanda?Are Western states going to the point where they are embracing authoritarianism,real authoritarianism, not the book authoritarianism that you write?Where people die, then we have to pay attention.But you know what they're not doing?They're not saying,
24:25Malcolm Nance said something bad about Ben Shapiro on Twitter.That is not the reality of this world.The attitude is the predicate for the action.All right.I'm going to get to both these points,but you brought up real-world dictators.Tucker Carlson,the leading voice on the leading conservative network in this country
24:42is embracing Victor Orban.If people don't know who Victor Orban is,he is, well, V-DEM, which is the organizationthat assesses global democracy,says Hungary, which is where he is the dictator,lapsed into autocracy in 2018.They're not alone.This is widely seen as the truth.
25:03Victor Orban elected.He was elected.So was Hitler.Three times, I believe, right?Right.Orbin.Okay.It's a different kind of autocracy that he is practicing.
25:13It's kind of dangerous.And the fact that Tucker Carlson embraces this guy,that the Republican Party gets this sort of dictatorial.immunity. I mean, if a Democrat kissed up to a dictator like that, I don't know.I mean, if a Democrat kissed up to a dictator.Barack Obama went and held hands with Fidel Castro's brother at a baseball game.If a Democrat kissed up to a dictator like that.Barack Obama said that he was going to provide flexibility to Vladimir Putin.
25:41All right. Forget that.A dictator that was dangerous.Here's why it's dangerous.I feel like Malcolm might have some words about Putin on that.I was going to offer the Democrats that went to Iraq,you know, trying to stop the Iraq war beforehand.You want a ballpark figure of people who may have, you know,sort of molly coddled in that point.
26:02But let's get, like, I'm sure you were about to make this point.Orban used his democratic election to dismantle democracy.Correct.And that's how dictators get into work.Adolf Hitler was democratically elected.Yes, what I'm worried about is that this looks like a dry,run that Tucker Carlson would embrace him.It looks like a Spanish Civil War for what Hitler did later, if I may use that analogy.
26:30The kind of dry run that we are seeing where they foment fear of what the, and I wouldagree, are the exaggerations of the cultural left to say, they are so dangerous that wecannot let them take over, no matter what.Even if we have to get rid of democracy, it's more important than having to have tothese leftists with their ideas that will change our culture completely from the root.It's more important.And that seems to be the argument that they are making here in America.That's why you get these numbers of Republicans who say we may have to take the law into our own hands.
27:05So this thing of Tucker Carlson in Hungary, I think, is a big deal.Okay, well, obviously, you know, anybody who says that would be morally wrong.I think there is always an element when you pull Republicans of screw you to the pollsters,and so they sort of tell pollsters what they think the pollsters don't want to hear.But let's assume that all those poll results are accurate reflections of what people actually think.I feel like I'm living in a bit of a parallel universe in the sense that right now,the House, the Senate, and the presidency of the United States are all controlled by the Democratic Party.It is the Democratic Party large scale across the United States currently engaged in mask mandates,
27:35vaccine mandates, and lockdowns.So for all the talk about Tucker Carlson, who, again, you mentioned, is not a governmental figure,or Donald Trump, who's not been in office since January last I checked,It seems that the great threat that people are experiencing right nowis from the soft institutions, right?The institutions, the Facebooks and the Twitters and the corporate world, right?All those institutions on a soft level, and on a governmental level,the people who are actually experiencing control top down from the government,
27:59the people at the top of the government right now are Democrats.And let me give you an example of what I, what you said,it doesn't get anybody killed.I think it does.Defunding the police, I think came from openness,and I think it'll get people killed.Here's an example.Wait a second.
28:13The spectator says that,at the New York Times, refused to investigate,they call the biggest story of our time.They're talking about where the virus originated.Maybe it was in the Wuhan lab.Because they suppressed effortsto probe the virus's originsfor among reasons because they thought it was racist.
28:32You see, because everything is race,come on, at the New York Times.And so the paper of record is not reportingwhat I would expect the paper of record to reportthe accurate news.That is an example of the power of wokeness.Yes, it does have power.So it's not just one-sided.
28:51It's just not as bad.Well, let's stipulate that, all right?Let's just stipulate that from time to timeand on many occasions, the New York Times sucks.All right?They don't report things that are sitting in front of their head.Look, they just called on Cuomo to resign.Over four years, they never asked for Trump to resign.
29:08All right?And he's had way more documented problems with women than everybody else.The New York Times never asked for Trump.The New York Times has never called on Trump to resign.That was just a clerical error.That was not.You must, I think you missed the paper, but I don't think.Can I just touch on something Ben just said there?
29:26You know, by saying, oh, the Democrats were in the House, the Senate, and the presidency,that's like, that reminds me of the chief from the penguins, right?He has that secret power.He goes, there's nothing to see, boys.There's nothing to see.The last freaking four years saw the dissent of the United States.States into almost sheer autocracy. I've been on this show where we talked about it with one ofmy books where Russia was backing. Trump. Russia backed Orban. Russia backed, hold on, Austria. They
29:55blasts the government of Serbia to do a coup de Tad in Macedonia. They backed France. The entireWestern world was teetering on the edge of turning into an axis of autocrats and to say,well, liberals do things on Twitter and that makes you bad, that ain't autocrat.son, what autocracy doesis it destroys government.It's not autocracy, but it is anti-freedom.There is a...I'll give you that.
30:22Yeah.There is a chill in this countryabout what you can say, what you can do.It's not a healthy thing.Malcolm, I've noticed when you talk abouthow the last four years we're on the verge of autocracy,when did your last book come out?Two years ago.
30:36Who was president?Donald Trump.Were you thrown in jail?Was there any threat to do so?Was I thrown in jail?No, but you know, I was pulled off.air from television for three weeksby express letter
30:47written from the Trump White Houseto MSNBC to pull criticsoff of air. And why do you see...I wasn't the director of the CIA,so... But Trump is off of...Trump is off of Facebook and Twitter altogether.Yeah, well, you know what? I recall...Maybe we should all let each other speak. I recall we live in
31:02a, what do you call it? Capitalist societyand where private businesses can makedeterminations that their generalcounsel advises them to doin order for them not to lose marketshare. Donald Trump was an anchoraround these corporations byespousing insurrection and
31:18insurgency. By, samething you can get kicked out of a Kroger's.Let meinterrupt witha little economic news. They had somereally good economic news. I thinkthey added almost a million jobsin July. Well, I mean, we've just had a horrible
31:34downturn, so this isgoing to happen, and it's good that it is. I hopeit keeps doing it, and we knowgo fucking nuts about the newvariant, there's always going to be a variant.Anyway,companies are so desperate to get workers,they are giving out perks. It's so
31:50great, I think, that workers now have a little leveragefinally. It's now the companiesthat are shitting in their pants that they can'tget... Okay, so, like,look at some of these headlines.100% of college tuitionTarget will give you in textbooks. That'spretty good. Another one says,
32:06like Christmas in June, more companies aredangling bonuses. So some of theseperks are pretty amazing. We,Would you like to see some of them at the company?I like.Over at Uber, we'll read your screenplay.Good year.You can borrow the blimp to go to your high school reunion.
32:29That's pretty good.Hooters shifts now count toward your degree at the University of Arizona.That was always the case.Baskin Robbins, employees are allowed to take up to four hits of nitric oxide off the whipped cream canister.I used to do that.Oh.Oh.Petsmore, every Sunday you can take home a fish to grill.
32:58Oh, that's not right.Toys R Us, now accepting sex offenders.That's really not right.Walmart, you come to work dressed like the customers.Uh, IKEA.You can live here.And Subway, we reversed our policy on employees touching the bread with their penis.Go for it.
33:33All right.Well, one too many.That's...It's always my rule.One too many.Go too far.Then you know you're done.All right.
33:49Let's get back into...Hard news.I hate it.We're having such a good time,and now we're going to fight.Now I'm going to make you fight again,but it's okay.But I've got to talk about that.
34:01Mussel laws, there's these lawsthat are introduced in our order of statesto not talk about critical race theory.Now, critical race theory, I must say, to begin with,I hadn't heard the term probably a year ago.Now I hear it every day.I think Americans are just starting to hear it.And I think no one knows exactly what
34:19it is. They know it has something to do with raceand it's some kind of a theory.Right?How would you describe it? And then we'll ask, howyou describe it? What is critical race theory? I willadmit that I read a lot of critical race theory in lawschool. So, you know, the work of Derek Bellor Jean-Stefanchich and Richard Delgado.
34:37This is the stuff no one knows but you and six otherpeople. Right. So...What matters is, what is itpractically, it's being taught inschools or some form of...Yes, there's a certain sort ofcrystallized version of it that is a lot less complex than what critical race theory actually is,but critical race theory essentially argues that racism is baked into all the systems of American
34:58society and that any sort of neutral system is in fact a guise for racial power. And so theargument is made by Derek Bell, for example, that Brown versus Board of Education, this is anargument he made in 1991, that Brown versus Board of Education was actually a way for the white communityto leverage its own power. It wasn't an attempt to end segregation in public schools. Eventhings that are purportedly good in terms of race, so long as they uphold these broader systems,things like capitalism or things like the meritocracy, these things are actually just guisesfor power. And so what that boils down to in sort of practical terms is all disparity equalsdiscrimination. If you can see any stat where black people are underperforming white people,
35:34this means the system was set up for the benefit of white people and that white peoplehave a duty to tear down these systems in order to alleviate the racism that's implicit in thosesystems. When it comes to schools, what this tends to boil down to is kids who are white,have experienced privilege because the system was built for white people,and we have to change the standards.Right.Okay, well, so Malcolm, you tell me your definition.Oh, I agree with everything he just said.
35:57Oh, great.And I appreciate you being honest in definingof what it's like to be black American, right?That is, I mean, we're talking about a system.But that's unfair.You're saying we can't.Well, no, I'm just saying I agree with all of those suppositionsbecause they are grounded in truth.
36:18Look, when...You know, and the funny thing is,it's not just African-Americans, right?It's also the Scalp Act of 1749,where for 300 modern dollars,you had to cut off the heador the hair of an Indianto prove that you've got them out of the way
36:37so they could settle.That's a little bit of American historythat people should know about.The Chinese Exclusion Acts of the 1840.These are things we don't talk about.That's not...That's not...It's not true that people don't talk about these things.
36:50We all did learn about...You don't want them talked about?No, that's not true either.You want to cancel them?No, Malcolm, I'm sorry, you're lying.That's lying.That's not wrong.It is lying.
36:59I've personally talked about many of the things that you just mentioned.I define critical race theory by citing the actual authors of critical race theory,and you seem to be a pretty good beneficiary of the meritocracy because you have merit, Malcolm.So if you're going to criticize the meritocracy as an outgrowth of white supremacy,then you're going to have to tear down the system,that you've succeeded in because you have merit?Or do you not have merit?You know, when my great-great-grandfather
37:23ran away from slavery to join the 111.11th U.S. color troopsand fight against the South,keeping human beings as slaves,he didn't think, you know what,in 150 years, my great-great-grandsonis going to have to sit on stageand argue with a guy who thinks all that's bullshit.All right?
37:40All right is bullshit.I'm just saying.There is no controversy.The controversy that's made up is people saying that this is being discussed,this is being taught in schools, and that kids should be kept away from it.It's not even a real controversy.Malcolm, the fifth largest school district in America,Clark County, just decided that they were going to lower standards with regard to testing
38:03because they wanted to alleviate disparities in outcomes.That is an outgrowth of critical race theory.Can you draw a straight line to it?Yes, 100%.Because when you say that the meritocracy is an outgrowth of white supremacy,and then you suggest that I'm somehow denying that slavery,that slavery took place or that your great-great-great-grandfather was a herobecause I'm saying that I want people tested when they are in school
38:23to see if they are good at school.Then what you're purporting to push now is just nonsense.It's hard to shoot bullshit, malcolm.It's just bullshit.But I think it's also a leap to say that he thought that was bullshitbecause that's not what it is.Are we talking about 2021?Are we talking about 1861?
38:41Because...The point is, can we talk about 1861 and 2021 in 2020?Yes, we can.You just did.I don't know who's against talking about history.Well, I mean, I understand that they want to, you know, in Texas.They're talking about removing references to the Ku Klux Klan.They're talking about removing, I mean, come on.
38:56That's Texas.I mean, how can you watch Forrest Gump without even knowing who Nathan Bedford Forrest is?Right?I mean, these are people who are historical figures who did bad things.No one is actually saying we want to go back and erase everything and restart and talk to you about these things.Critical Race Theory is a subject because the Republican right has made it a subject.No real school organizations are mandating this force kids.I hope every Democrat in America takes your perspective.
39:23I hope so do.And they will be shellacked at the polls.Roy Tashara just wrote a piece,the emerging Democrat majority, Roy Tashara.He just wrote a piece about what he called the Fox News fallacy,a tendency of people on the left to believethat just because Fox News mentioned something,it can't be real.
39:36The reality is a lot of this stuff is taught in schools.You mean like viruses?Well, okay.Can I?Now I'm just...I don't know.Now I'm just confused as far as what people are experiencing in their lives, in their schools.Yeah.
39:53Okay, you're right.There are states, like, from the old Confederacy, I think, who do want to airbrush history.That's not, I think, the majority in this country.If you ask me in critical race theory, if you say, does that mean teach history unvarnished?I would say, yes, then I'm totally for critical race theory.If you say, does it mean acknowledging that racism persists today?I would say yes, teach that.Should we have remedial means?
40:19That's like affirmative action.There's lots of people who are against that.I'm still for that.I still think when you read the statistics,and I have some of them here,blacks earn 40% less,90% less family wealth.High poverty high schools,
40:3572% blacks to 31% white,lives six years shorter.Half is likely to go to college.Eight times more.incarcerated. These are real statistics.The question is, wait, how do we, what do we do to address them?These are real statistics.You think we should address them? You think we should address them, right?
41:00The question is, what are we doing about it?Because if critical race theory means making children in school fixate on race, I'm not for that.if it makes, if it's about collective guilt,I didn't do anything to your great, great, great, great grandfather.I don't want to be responsible for that.If it's about, you know, a toxicity of just from being born white,if it's about dividing everybody into oppressor and oppressive,oppressed and oppressor, I'm not for that.
41:33So there are things that are being taught and are going around that I'm not for,that if that was critical race, I wouldn't be for.I agree with you. And I don't think that's critical race theory.But it's being...I think what's happened here...I think that what's happened here,as this terminology, sort of like defunded the police,has been hijacked and been framed around the left
41:56as that they want to do all this,they want to rip down the entire social fabric of America,and they want us to be guilty about everything.I want you to teach history.I had a lot of people in the military.Hold on.I had a lot of people in the military.senior officers who had to make life and death's decisions
42:12who were total morons about the cultures and institutionsand countries we were going intoand people died because of that.I have a question. I don't need that here.If we agree that history should be taught,why are you defending critical race theory,which is not history?Did I not just say a moment ago
42:27that I think that term has been hijackedand that's not what we're talking about?And why are you defending it?I'm going to go back and repeat that I didn't say that.Okay.You are literally defending critical race theoryby redefining it as just teaching history,which is a cheap semantic trick, and you know it.
42:41Is this what you do on your show because it sucks?You know, Malcolm, I appreciate that,but I will comfort myself tonightby sleeping on my bed made of money.I'm sure we have an adult.I'm sure we have another adult subject to talk about.Well, how about that Andrew Cuomo?I tell you, he's, he sure is in a lot of trouble.
43:07It seems like he's been a little sleazy.Your thoughts on...How is he still there?What does he think is going to happen?I mean, why would you stay at this moment?It's been a whole week since the report came out.They're going to impeach him if he doesn't leave.Wouldn't you rather go on your own accord than...
43:28Wouldn't you rather be, you can't fire me, I quit,than get impeached in a week?No?No, I think all the incentive structures are for staying.I mean, you have to at least take the Ralph Northam Gabbell, right?I mean, you at least have to take the chancethat maybe people will forget about it and move on.Well, I think this is worse than Ralph Northam.
43:47Yeah, that was Blackface.Well, what's worse?Blackface at a party in 1980.Let me ask you, Blackface at a party in 1980, not cool,or actually sexually harassing women in 2021and who work under you.You know, I go on public radio in WAMC in Albany,and we have a roundtable with a great distinguished gentleman named Dr. Alan Chartock,
44:13and he knows Cuomo very, very well.And the overwhelming consensus is you had a chance to walk away from this with your dignity intact.You had a chance to say, I know the allegations are out there, they have been investigated,I maintain my position but for the good of the state of New York.I, you know, Andrew Cuomo, I'm going to eventually sit down from this,let my lieutenant governor take overand maybe someday you'll name a bridge after me.Right? No. He is
44:43gone full Trump here. He is burning himselfdown. He may have anopportunity now. I'm imploring him to do it.You know, when Joe Biden tells you to go, it's time to go.Yes, that's what I'm saying. It's time to go.And he's not Donald Trump.Because Donald Trump is a city cockroachand nothing can kill him.
45:06And this guy,is not.He should go.He ain't getting the bridge.I got to go.Thank you very much.Make up after the show.All right.
45:19New rules, everybody.New rules.If I ask to see a menu,don't hand me a QR code.If I wanted to order through my phone,I wouldn't have come to a restaurant.And if your menusaren't safe enough to touch my table,
45:44I don't know if I should be putting your food in my mouth.New Rule, for those enjoying these new world's most expensive French fries,made with chipper-beck potatoes, blanched in D'anperion,triple-fried in goose fat, and topped with shaved truffles and edible gold dust.Tell me what's more disappointing.The $200 price tag are when you go to eat one and a seagull steals it.Say we're laughing at the same jokes.Comedy brings people together.
46:30New Rule, if Joe...Biden really wants $66 billionfor trains, he should changeAmtrak's name to track force.And say he wants to buildstealth trains. Invisibleto radar, hobos, or cows.Now, sign the check, Mitch.
46:52Freedom isn't free.New rule, just to make Q&on conspiracynuts even more confused,Hillary Clinton has to try and take a biteout of Dababy.No rule, instead of going to Instagram to hear AOC take apart Marjorie Taylor Greenand then to Twitter to hear Green answer back,we should just combine all of an into a reality show called The Real House Reps of D.C.
47:41All leading up to a tense moment of AOC saying,We need to be friends if we want to make legislation.And Green yelling, I'm not here to make legislation.And finally, new rule, Joe Biden has to admitthat when he said about Republicans,with Trump gone, you're going to see things changebecause these folks know better.They know this isn't what they're supposed to be doing.
48:10He was wrong.And he has to come to terms with why that was wrong,which I'm going to explain to you tonight.Now, I'm sure most of our viewers have had the same thoughtI've had since January 6th.How can they do it?Republicans, come on.Different policy positions.
48:32Okay, sure. Even life philosophies. Fine. List of priorities. Yes. But this, sticking with the lie that an impeccably run election was really stolen, what makes them do that? What is so great that it can make you, the big patriot with the flag pin on your lapel, sell out your country on its most fundamental principle?And the answer is the title, the office, the staff, the staff,the good table,all that attention,and being the big cheese around the office.Congressman is literally the only job in the worldyou can get with so much prestigeand so many perks while being a complete doofist
49:25with absolutely no skills, knowledge, or qualification.Name only almost any job.Dental hygienist,rodeo clown,dog walker,Mall Santa.chicken sexer, tilt-a-whirl operator.They all demand some kind of definable skill set.
49:53Not Congress.You can be in jail and get this job.You can be deranged and get this job.If you have a heart attack,they just let your wife start doing the job.All you need is a smile and a tie.I'd say you need a pulse,but dead people have been elected to Congress.
50:21Much more.Much more is required of an immigrant taking the citizenship test or the average voter than the person who represents 750,000 voters.In 48 states, you can't vote if you're in prison, but in every state, you can run for Congress from prison.Unremarkable people can get a remarkable life in Congress, and that's what keeps the average Republican backbencher in Fatsos thrall.Sticking with Trumpguarantees them something that's biggerthan faith, family, country, or objective reality.They get to keep the best job they could ever get
51:04with absolutely nothing to recommendtheir lazy, ignorant ass for it.College degree?You don't even need a high school degree.Lauren Bobert didn't get one,and she sits on the budget committee.If she wasn't in Congress,she could probably get a shift at a truck stop
51:24dusting the jerky.But thenshe wouldn't have two paid-foroffices, one in D.C., one in herdistrict. She wouldn't have a staffthat answers the phone for her andkisses her ass all day. No onewould put her on TV and ask her
51:45opinions. She couldn't go onexotic paid-for trips.I'm sorry, I mean fact-finding missions.A Congress jobis just so much better than rackingthe weights at CrossFit, which is whatMarjorie Taylor Green did before she saidher crazy eyes on the prize.
52:05And once you've gotthe gig, it's yours for life.The re-election rate in the Housefor incumbents in 2020was 95%.That's better job security than apedophile priest.Devin Nunes,
52:25I guess, could mop uppuke at the Sonic,but it would take them all day.Would you hire this guy?But in Congress,puk-mopper Devin Nunes,is a big deal.A man of respect.
52:48When he walks in and asks for the best table,you know what they say?They say,sir, this is a pet smart.The cheesecake factory is next door.Last year, a video went viralof a Walmart employeequitting her job over the PA.
53:08Fuck this company, fuck this position,fuck that big, lazy bitch, Chris Price.I fucking quit.And here's Texas Representativeof Chip Roy telling Congressto take this job and shove it.This institution is a sham,and we should adjourn and shut this
53:31place down. Yeah.The difference is, the Walmartemployee actually quit.I love this chick. Can we look at itone more time?Fuck this company, fuck this position,and fuck that big, lazy bitch, Chris Price. I fuckingquit.
54:00But Chip Roy, he'll never quit,because there's no other jobs were a moron.gets paid to ride around in a limo.Chip gets paid$175 grand a year,free medical, great pension,with half the year off,plus a million and a half dollar a year allowance
54:16for decorating the office and sundries.Oh, also, lobbyists blow him.And he gets to be on TV for doing nothing,which, as we all know, is the American dream.And by doing nothing,I mean that literally.get elected, you don't have to actually do anything. There's no year-end performance review.Nobody calls you into an office and says, I don't think this is working out. You have essentially
54:51no boss. Well, except the voters. That's the one thing you've got to do to keep all these perks coming.If your district is full of people who think the election was rigged or vaccines have microchipsin them or Democrats eat babies, you have to agree and then repeat it in Congress. And theydo. Nancy Mace is a new house member from South Carolina, the first woman to graduate from theCitadel. After January 6th, she was outraged and stood up to her party, giving a dozen interviewsin a single day condemning Trump. Now, she won't even talk about it. She voted to oust Liz Cheneyfor making the exact same case she herself had made. A lot of people in America think she's a patriot,But she looks to me like a traitor for the corner office.
55:47She supported an insurrection for the likes.Oh, and one more thing, this Chris Price guy over at the Walmart,he is a fucking lazy bitch.All right, that's our show.The Silver Legacy, Casino and Reno, September 5th at the Temple Hornbue Theatre in Denver,on September 11th at Maron's Letter Memorial in San Rafael, California, September 25th.Thank you, Malcolm Nance.Thank you, Ben, Ben, Ben, Bill.
56:13Shapiro. Thank you, Donna DeVirona. Thank you, folks.Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10 or watchthem anytime on HBO On Demand. For more information, log on to hboh.com.
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