Ep 1405 | Steven Lawson’s New Book Is Troubling. Here Are My Takeaways
00:00Lawson has released a new book. It's called Mercy in the Wilderness, How I Fell in What IFound. He doesn't say, okay, this is how I, a grandfather in my 70s, started flirting with a womanin her 20s who lived in another state. He doesn't talk about that. Like, what was it that led youinto that temptation? What decisions did you specifically make to push away accountability and to pushaway honesty? What rules would you put in place if you could go back? He talks about some of that,but not really specifically.Was it the traveling by yourself?Was it something that you always wanted to do?
00:34Was this the first time that something like this happened?You might say, well, that's not about our business.You wrote a book.If it's not a far business, don't write books.Don't write books about the scandal unless you are ready to be open and honest.Hey, y'all, welcome to Relatable.Happy Wednesday.Hope everyone has had a wonderful week so far.
01:05Share the Aeros is just a couple of days away.I got a message from someone saying,when's the last day that we can buy, share the Aeros tickets?Well, I guess Saturday morning, if you really wanted to, if you're one of those people that's like, you know what, I'm just going to fly by the seat of my pants. We're just going to see what happens. Then I guess if there are still tickets left, you could buy some Saturday morning. Maybe the safest bet is to do so on Friday. But I understand if you're local, you're still trying to see what's happening this weekend and see if your husband or your mother-in-law or something can watch your kids while you come to share the arrows. That's understandable. Just go to share the arrows.com.I do have a discount 20% off.That's the highest discount that we're offering.You can use code Allie 20.It's going to be amazing.
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02:06I just can't wait to be edified and encouraged right alongside you.As much as I can,I am going to be in there listening, taking my own notes, worshiping.If you've got a question, if you're already attending this weekend, you've got a question.You can go to share the aeros.com.We've got an FAQ page.And if you're not attending, if you could just join us in prayer, that this would be a weekendwhere God is glorified most of all, that the gospel goes out.
02:31There will be women in this audience who don't know the gospel.Most who are coming are Christians.Some have some different beliefs.Some are searching.Some are skeptical.Some might believe that they're Christians, but they don't really understand the gospel.And so will you pray for their hearts?Will you also pray for those who just need, encourage to it, need to be uplifted,
02:49need to be reminded that they are not alone, that there are thousands of women sharing theirarrows too.Just pray for this weekend for protection and all of that good stuff too.So thankful for Share the Arrows and that I get to be a part of this 37 weeks pregnant.So go to ShareTheaeros.com.And also don't forget, there's a special.announcement that is going to be made at Share the Arrow's that you will see first and get tobe a part of first in a very special way if you are attending Share the Arrow's. If you're not,
03:19you'll find out about it at one point or another. It's a really big thing that my husband and Ihave been building for almost two years now and we're so pumped about it. All right, sharetheAros.com,get your tickets today. Let's get into the rest of today's episode. Today we are talking aboutStephen Lawson. And a lot of you in my audience know who Stephen Lawson.is, he was a very accomplished exegetical preacher and he was preaching at a church calledTrinity Bible Church in Dallas when unfortunately it was revealed that he had been a part of aninappropriate relationship. And we covered that at the time. This was two years ago that hisministry kind of came crashing down after it was revealed that he had persisted in some kind
04:06of the nature is still a little bit murky, but some kind of extramarital relationship with a woman inher 20s. If you don't know who Stephen Lawson is, he is in his 70s, okay? So married for a very long timeto the same lovely woman and had children and grandchildren still does, of course, have childrenand grandchildren. And this really rocked the reformed world. I mean, he was a huge figure, a huge forcein the kind of John MacArthur Master's Seminary world, the kind of guy that you would justnever see doing something like this. It's sad to say, but sometimes you see a pastor who seemsto be driven by fame and attention and you're like, okay, yeah, I'm not maybe thatsurprised when a pastor like that makes a decision based on his desire for love and attention
04:58and all of that. Stephen Lawson so did not seem that way. And I'm not saying that's a fairassessment to judge a book by its cover that because someone wears a suit and tie and preaches inan expository way and is part of like John McArthur's circle that they are not vulnerable to temptation.I'm not trying to say that. But just being honest kind of about the human assessment of things,we wouldn't have thought it. And even on the deeper spiritual and theological level, someone who clearlyhas such a firm grasp on the gospel on the word of God and is so careful to see, I mean, it seemed like to understand analso apply it. It just didn't seem like that kind of guy was at risk for what happened, havingthis inappropriate relationship with a younger woman. So we talked about at the time, we did,
05:46I think, a couple different episodes on it just explaining what happened, what happened withhis ministries, some of the comments, some of the statements that were put out, and then how wegrapple with this when a leader that we admire that we look up to false.What is that say about our faith, about the word of God, about the character of God, and why we can still trust him in those moments?And now the reason we are talking about it today is because Lawson has released a new book.A couple of years later, it's called Mercy in the Wilderness, How I Fell in What I Found.So we're going to look at what the book is, like what is inside the book.What's maybe good about it?
06:28What's kind of strange about it?and also what the reaction has been in the reformed world and answer the question of whether a disqualifiedpastor should write books like this in the first place. So first we'll back up a little bit and tell youabout who this person is, like how he is so credentialed and why this was and still is such a big dealthat he made the decision that he made, why this has had such a big impact on those of us whoconsider ourselves reformed Protestant. Let me go ahead and pause. I'll tell you about our firstsponsor and it is seven weeks coffee. So thankful for seven weeks to be able to partner with them for somany years now. They make great tasting coffee. We love it in our home. We love that it tastes great,
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08:19Use code Alley for 10%,an extra 10% off your first order.That's seven weekscoffee.com.Code Alley. So Steve Lawson had been in the pastoral ministry for 40 years. He joined TrinityBible Church in 2018. I visited there several times. I will say on those occasions, while I lovedlistening to Stephen Lawson preach, one thing that I never, my husband and I never felt that wecould fully get on board with was that he was not actually the permanent pastor that he wouldteach there, but then he would also still kind of travel the world and continue to teach.
09:03And I don't know that I can say 100% that is always wrong or that is always unbiblical,always bad, but it did make it feel like the church was a little unmoored.Like there wasn't really a shepherd there that was responsible for the protection andthe stewardship of the flock. Like if I just want to hear someone preach, well, I can listen toanyone preach in the world by listening on my podcast app. But like I'm interested ingoing to a church where there is a clear shepherd. I'm not saying there was no shepherding happeningat Trinity Bible Church. I know people who go there. I know some of the leadership there and theyare really, really solid believers and tried to handle this, I think, in the best way possible.
09:45But there was something about the structure of him just kind of being this performer,presenter there that my husband and I just didn't like that. There's something intuitively that wecouldn't get on board with. He also founded an organization called One Passion Ministries. His wholething was trying to help other pastors preach exegedically, which is really important. That is thekind of preaching that I have benefited so much from that can truly change lives because of the Wordof God. He goes verse by verse. So when we're talking about expository preaching or exegetical preaching,like that X means you're pulling meaning out of the text, not just based on your feelings, but based onwhat the rest of the Bible says, most importantly, based on the context, based on the history,
10:33based on solid theological tradition, and you extract meaning based on those things from the text.So it's not topical. It's not isogetical. Like, okay, I want to talk about this today. Let'stry to find the verses that I think fit into, you know, winning a soccer game, Philippians 413.It really is a methodical way to preach. And Stephen Lawson was very, very good at that.I think R.C. Sprole, John McArthur, those who might take years and years to bring their church through a book of the Bible because they are so carefully dissecting the text. He was absolutely a master at that. Then September 2024 happened. This was shocking. Trinity Bible Church of Dallas announced that Stephen Lawson had been removed indefinitely from all ministry activities after the elders learned from Lawson that he had been involved in and quote,appropriate relationship with a woman.Phil Johnson, then the executive director of Grace to you, an elder at John McArthur'sGrace Community Church, subsequently said that Lawson had been involved in a five-year relationship
11:39with a woman in her late 20s. Lawson was 73 when the scandal became public. Johnson describedthe relationship as having strong romantic overtones. So that's according to the Christian Post.As I said in the beginning, there was some confusion about whether or not there is a sexual aspectof this. Some people close to the situation.said, no, this was not sexual. Others who knew Lawson and knew more about the situationsuggested that there may have been. Regardless, it was more than platonic. It wasn't just mentorship.And by the way, I don't think a man should be mentoring a young woman. I just don't think so.But it seemed to be much deeper of a connection than just a casual like, hey, I'm your pastor.
12:24I know your family keep strong in the faith kind of appropriate friendship.There was texting, there was phone calling, there were just deep aspects to this relationshipat the very least that were inappropriate.So Trinity's initial statement simply said that Lawson had informed the elders abouttheir relationship, but then Phil Johnson subsequently said that the woman's fatherhad discovered the relationship and confronted Lawson, which actually forced Stephen Lawsonto disclose to church leadership.And then we say that Johnson said that Lawson and the woman maintain this, that there's no literal fornication.
13:01Like we're getting into technicalities. I mean, you could break down each word. Like, what does that mean?Literal fornication was involved. And so they maintained that there was no sexual aspect of it.But then, as they said, there was a longtime friend of Lawson, Clint Archer, who said this, according to the Christian Post, said,Lawson's relationship with the young woman was one of acquaintance and then friendship forapproximately five years, was not one of his sexual nature until very shortly before it wasexposed after his adultery was discovered.Lawson confessed his sin to the elders of his church and to his family.All right.
13:38So there's a little bit of a he said, she said going on there, which is very unfortunate.The permanent disqualification question.There are some people who believe, look, if you can be forgiven of any sin, you could be restored to any station.But it doesn't seem like the Bible actually gives that option.So while this is a debate, it doesn't seem debatable according to the Word of God.For example, if you read 1st Timothy 3, 2, and 7, therefore an overseer must be above reproach the husband of one wife.Sover-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach.Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders.
14:18so that he may not fall into disgrace into a snare of the devil.So it doesn't say there that you can't be forgiven by God if you are not sober-mindedor if you lose self-control, if you do something that's not respectable, if you areinhospitable in some way.But we're not talking about just the average Christian.We're saying, no, there are special qualifications for an overseer, for a leader of thechurch.You have to be above reproach, that there could not even be possible.
14:48something that someone would see in your life and be able to accuse you of something evil.Now, obviously, people could just totally maliciously fabricate something, even if you are livingin a way that's above reproach. But it overseer's life should be so incredibly in the light thatif someone accused them of something, no one else would be able to say, well, you know what?There is like this big part of his life that I don't know anything about.Or, yeah, that was kind of sketchy that I saw him with that woman.and maybe the overseer has a good explanation for it,but that's what it means to be above reproach
15:22that you shouldn't have to have an explanationfor any part of your life or behavior.You might think that's strict,but that's the word of God.And I think that is God's love and protection of the flock, too,that he places that high standard on the overseers.In 2025, Pastor Clint Archer reported that Lawson was fully awarethat he is permanently disqualified from ministry,
15:43so I would say that's good, that awareness,and did not believe he could be restored to a team,teaching or ministry position requiring the biblical qualifications of an elder.You have Nathan Boosnitz, the Naster Seminary's executive vice president and provost,told faculty and students that Lawson had failed to uphold the biblical qualifications for elders.He's no longer above reproach.He's permanently disqualified.You had others saying the same.
16:10Lawson was silent about this for several months.So I thought that that was a little strange at the time,that you had one passion, his organization putting out a statement.You had, I believe those Master Seminary also put out a statement that of course TrinityBible Church put out a statement, which we dissected at the time.We don't have time to get into all of that, but I love dissecting press releases andPR statements because they're always like technically true.But if you break down each word, there's typically some kind of subliminal message going on
16:46there so you can go back and listen to those episodes if you're more interested in their statements,but Lawson didn't say anything until March 2025. And then he said this, I have sinned grievouslyagainst the Lord, against my wife, my family, and against countless numbers of you by having asimple relationship with a woman, not my wife. So, you know, it was a little later than I thinkthat he owed those who had, you know, paid money to his ministry. I'm not saying that he isbeholden to social media, but because he was a public figure,he did use social media. He had this public platform. I do think that you're obligated to say something.And he eventually did. And it's true. He did sin grievously in this way. And I'm glad that he was able to
17:28confess that. And of course, the prayer that all of us have is true repentance and restoration, reconciliation to the Lord that the Lord would guide him, heal him, restore him.Also restore their marriage. We don't really know exactly what went down between Lawson and hiswife after that, but we pray that the grace of God is just poured out on both of them, that God wouldwork a miracle in their lives and their marriage because we know that Satan hates marriage.And people could argue the technicalities of the Bible while his wife would be justified in leavinghim. But is that God's heart? No, I believe that God's heart is whenever possible for the husbandand the wife to reconcile and to stay together. And so that is absolutely what we pray for as well ashis children, his children's children, and the church, because the church of God is hurt
18:19by something like this, by this kind of hypocrisy. It's not just like the hypocrisy of any oldperson. The hypocrisy of a church leader who is called to be above reproach is worse in a lot ofways. It is because of its impact. So now he's written this book, this book calledMercy in the Wilderness, How I Fell and what I found that has just beenreleased and it is selling for $15 wherever books are sold and we looked into what it actuallysays and obviously there are some true things in it which doesn't surprise me at all.He knows the truth.Like he knows the truth.
18:58He knows the truth very well and he can communicate the truth very well.But the question is should he have written it?Should he have been selling it in the first place?So we'll get into that discussion in the second.Let me pause.Tell you about our next sponsor.It's WeHeart Nutrition.We love.
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20:24Get your supplements from WeHeart Nutrition.Go to Weheartnutrition.com.Code Alley for 20% off your first order.Weheartnutrition.com code Alley.Okay, so some people, I don't know why, but they thought maybe it's a hoax.Like maybe this is AI generated.And maybe some of the reason they,thought that is because a couple months ago, there was an announcement that he was speaking at
20:50some like Atlanta conference. And it was bizarre. It just like wasn't really a conference that youwould think that Stephen Lawson would be preaching up. But then the question was like, maybe he's justtrying to get back into the circuit and he's taking whatever speaking off or he is getting.But then that ended up not being real. I don't know if it was a hoax or it was a mistake or it wasreally supposed to be like before this whole scandal happened. I don't really know. So that could be whypeople are like, okay, are they just messing with us? Is this just AI? But then Phil Johnson,again, we talked about him earlier, longtime grace community church elder. He confirmed that thebook is genuine. He wrote on X, however, that Lawson is not going to gain any respect or
21:30trust from those whom he betrayed by thrusting himself back to the public discussion by pedaling a $15book subtitled How I Fell in What I Found. Mark Jones, a pastor at Faith Vancouver Presbyterianchurch wrote a review for the site. He said, in my own opinion, I'd prefer he stay silent and servequietly in his local church by stacking chairs and helping the needy. If such a confession mustbe written, would it not be more powerful coming from a decade of quietly serving and reflecting?Or would he be forgotten by then and so lack an audience. Loss and could have written a blog postand left it at that. Trevor Sheets, we've had his wife on the show before. He wrote was,he said, it doesn't seem wise for him.
22:14to attempt to reestablish himself as a Christian figure or leader,though him writing this one book doesn't necessarily mean he's doing that.However, this sin disqualifies him from being a pastor, not from being an author.My own personal opinion, too, is that it's just too fast.It's just too soon.We are shy of two years, and I don't disbelieve that he has learned a lot.When you are humbled that quickly, you fall from the post that has been entrusted to you.you have lots of people who admire you.
22:45He had a virtual Bible study that tons of people around the world joined and benefited from.When you fall from that, that is a huge blow to your ego.Even if you had been someone who is humble, like you realize how much pride we all struggle with when all of that is taken away from you,you have a loss of identity, a loss of purpose, a loss of income, I imagine.And so I don't doubt that he learned a lot about.humility and reliance on the Lord and hopefully loving his wife and all of those things.But I agree with some of these critics. It's just too soon. It's just too soon.Like I want you to be focused on the things of the Lord, the things of the local church,
23:30and the things of your marriage. And maybe you could say, well, he is. You don't know that he'snot doing that. And that's true. But my opinion is that is too soon. So what does the book actually saymercy in the wilderness, how I fell in what I found. It's a short book. It's a little over 120 pages.It appears to be self-published. But God Press is listed as the publisher, but I don't know if that is apublishing company. It's not associated that we could find with any other books, except for Lawson's.Is it a new publishing company? Is it his publishing company that he is starting with his own book?I don't know. Okay, so here are the good parts I think of this book.It does appear that he is genuinely repentant.
24:16He talks about his sin.He doesn't excuse it.He doesn't push it off on other people.He repeatedly talks about the really bad consequences of his sin and that it's had thisawful impact on those in his life, his friends, his family, his followers.He also says that he was too harsh and insensitive in his preaching and lacked love forthose he was addressing.I would not have gathered that from his preaching, so he's confessing something out of his heart.
24:45I don't think that people in the Reformed camp would have thought that.But he writes that he emphasized God's holiness much more than his mercy,came down hard on people because it got him a reputation as a fiery preacher,earned him points at conferences, and on social media.Okay, well, that's an interesting point.I do think it's important to talk about God's holiness,and we have a lot of people who talk about the mercy of God,which is equally as important.
25:11But again, I don't know that I would have thought of him as, you know, some,like he was just a sinner in the hands of an angry God,Jonathan Edwards type preacher.He was just very straightforward.But I guess this experience has showed him, okay, I needed God to be merciful to me.I needed God to be gentle with me and compassionate with me.Did I show other people that aspect?of God's character in my own preaching. He said, my sin-bashing persona was the same on social media. Whenever
25:46I posted something provocative, the number of likes can repost shot up. But when I posted somethingpastoral and encouraging, the response was far more tepid. This fostered a jarring effect on my words.I was becoming more like a prophet of doom than a pastor of grace, more like a soldier than a shepherd.I would just maybe, I don't know if all of you should spend your time listening to his past sermons, but it's kind of hard for me to grapple with this description of all of his past sermons. I mean, I remember the guy sharing the gospel very tenderly many times. And I wasn't listening to all of his sermons every single day, but I did listen from time to time. So there is something about this that strikes me as odd. Like who are you speaking to? Like who are you trying to? Like who are you trying to?to garner the sympathies of. Maybe I'm being too harsh in my assessment. I am not saying that we shouldn'tbe talking about the mercy and the love and the grace of God. We absolutely should. But it'sinteresting how he is kind of retrospectively judging himself now. It's good that he sees the valueof mercy, of course, but I think one of the concerns is that he's maybe overcorrecting. He
27:01Lawson warned pastors in extraordinarily strong terms about sexual immorality. And there's nothing wrongwith what he says here. It's up for. You are the fool of all fools for 15 seconds of gratification.To now, you're no longer a pastor. And now you have a job at the drugstore. Now you're out on thestreets and now you have a paper route. So does the Lord forgive? Of course. But you also forfeit your ministry.And that clip does seem to be from some time during his extramarital relationship with that woman.Even so, it feels very hypocritical. But the problem is not that his words were too harsh here.They were not too harsh. Like, I think we need more.preachers being willing to say things like this. Like, hey, I know it's going to feel good when you
28:10have that affair, when you get attention from that woman, but here's the after effect. And that'sexactly what Satan does. He exaggerates the benefits of sin and he downplays the consequences. And I dothink one of the roles is a preacher to show you that it's the opposite. The pleasure is very fleeting,but the consequences are huge, not just spiritual, but also temporal, earthly, earthly in this life. And soI don't like I just am not totally sure about the apology tour about his past sermons.If he wanted to say specifically this is what I said and it was wrong because of this,that would be one thing.To say, gosh, I shouldn't have been so harsh against sin because I didn't.
28:52And this next part I'm kind of adding on because I didn't like that harshness against sinwhen I send myself.I don't know.I'm not sure that that's the right way to go.So I'm glad that he seems to be genuinely repentant. I don't know if the audit on his past sermons is coming from a genuine place or if it's even correct. Now, he does admit the callousness and insensitivity that crept into his marriage really kind of spurred him to have this extramarital relationship. And so it's good that he admits that. He wrote an entire chapter, chapter eight, called neglecting my wife. He explains that he had neglected his relationship with his wife for a long time.This was a contributing factor to his downfall, just didn't continue to pursue her, cherish her, love her in the way that he should have.Part of the reason for this, he says, was his pride. He was unwilling to admit there was a problem.He writes, she asked that we seek help by seeing a marriage counselor, but I was too prideful to go.
29:50After all, people came to me for counseling, not vice versa.And I think that is a temptation especially for really any Christian in the public space, but especially a pastor, someone.the people look to just assume as above reproach sometimes without even thinking about like whattheir life might be because this person has such a great handle on the word of God and speaks withsuch authority. Every part of their life must be in line. When really like he might have understoodthe word of God. He might have also just had a talent like just a knack for communicating the thingsof God that was more of an intellectual practice and kind of a performance rather than somethingthat was seeping into every area of his life.
30:33I think everyone is vulnerable to that 100%,but I think preachers can be incredibly, incredibly vulnerable to that kind of thing.And that's why it's so important to have that accountability structureand to ensure that there are people around those who are in those prominent positionsto ensure that they are walking with the Lord in a very real and transatlantic.parent and open and honest way. Now here's a sad part of this. I know I said earlier,we don't exactly know what's happening in his marriage and that is true, but it seems like whatwe've been able to deduce from his bulk that he hasn't been able to reunite with his wife.
31:17He mentions giving her space and trying to repair relationships but not being able to mend everythingthat was broken. And how just that really breaks my heart. I don't know exactly what that lookslike there was some chatter online about, you know, different, different aspects of their marriage that I won'tget into because obviously I can't verify that, but that I think that we can just take what he says,that there has been some sort of separation of space given and that that has not changed. And so weneed to pray for him. We need to pray for her. And we need to pray that God, again, does a miraculous work there.Now there are some other parts of the book that we found just a little off putting.That to me, in my opinion, and it's just my personal opinion, and we can give personal opinions on this without it being gossip.
32:08He puts this out publicly, okay?This is for public consumption and therefore also for public scrutiny.And I don't want to be rude.I don't want to add to any like slander exaggeration, but I am going to tell you like what I think about some parts of the book that just didn't sit right with me.Let me pause.Let me tell you about it.our next sponsor and that is good ranchers. I love good ranchers. If you have someone in your lifewho is hard to shop for, you just don't know what to get them. Then you need to get them a box of
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33:26Go to Good Ranchers.com slash Alley.Get $50 off anything on their site.Good Ranchers.com slash Alley.Something that I just felt was a strange juxtaposition.While he is talking about his own pride, which is good, like we all need to admit our pride.Every single person on earth has to admit our pride and how it's infected different parts ofour lives at some point.He does do that.
33:55But while he is doing that, he goes on the.these kinds of rants listing his credentials. He has a chapter called Too Busy for God and he writes,I was preparing too many sermons, delivering too many lessons, writing too many books, I was researchingtoo many subjects, I was giving too many lectures, I was leading too many Bible studies,I was recording too many podcasts, and I was writing too many chapters. I was posting too manysocial media blurbs. I was writing too many blogs. I was writing too many book endorsements.Now, maybe that sits just fine with you, but to me it comes across like, look, I was also producing so much.I was just, I was doing so much and giving so much to the world.
34:37And maybe he doesn't mean it as an excuse, but it's some, it can kind of come across that way.Like, look, I was doing a lot of things for the Lord and maybe he says he lost sight,but it just seems like a list of all of the things that he was still producing and putting out into the world.He spends a lot of time in this part of the book,emphasizing this in the following chapter,he says, or it's called Ignoring the Science.He says, I was the president of an expanding ministry.I had a respected seminary, the dean of its doctoral program,
35:09a teaching fellow for an international ministry,author of 33 books,the series editor of the line of biographies,the publisher and contributing writer of a magazine,the speaker of four podcasts,the host and teacher of multiple conferences around the country and overseas,I was leading men's towards overseas.I just finished writing a 2-volume
35:261,800-page verse-by-verse commentary on Romans.I was doing all this ministry at the same time.Therein lay much of my problem.This was too much of what seemed to be a good thing.Now, you could see that as a humble brag.You could also see it.I'm just like playing devil's advocate when, you know,Paul kind of does the same thing.
35:46He's like, look, here's my genealogy.Like, here's my Jewish credentials.I was a Hebrew of Hebrews.I knew all of this stuff.I was a scholar.I was a Pharisee of Pharisees.I'm paraphrasing here.And then, of course, still, he did not know the gospel and he didn't know the truth until
36:01Jesus saved him.So you could also argue just to see the other side of this, that that's kind of whatStephen Lawson is doing here.He's listing all of these things, but ultimately saying that it didn't really matter.To me, it was a little gratuitous.It was a lot.They went on and on talking about all of the things that he had accomplished.I'm like, I think we understand.
36:22We totally understand. Like you were, you were doing a lot. And that's why so many people admired you.He spends a lot of time comparing himself to great men of scripture who fell, but later were used by God.In chapter 5, the enemy is me. He lists lots of examples of believers in scripture who sinned, but were still used by God.And he says on page 30, God still used him despite his disobedience. Later in the book, Lawson returns to this theme in chapter 13.He writes the entire chapter chronicling the similarities between his experience,and King David. And, you know, I think he got that from a lot of people who are saying it at the time.And, okay, I do understand that comparison. I think you can compare King David, like, with any person of God who falls.There are some similarities there. That seems to me like something that you allow someone else to do and maybe not something that you do yourself because it does seem to elevate you to this.
37:22special chosen appointed position like David that might not actually be applicable to you.I just think we have to be a little bit careful when we're comparing ourselves.When we're inserting ourselves, he knows that better than anyone, inserting ourselves in ourown experiences into the Bible rather than just drawing lessons from the Bible.Now, maybe he would cobble with that.Maybe he would say, no, I'm not doing is to Jesus here.I'm not trying to compare myself to David.I'm just showing people. These are the experiences of people who disobeyed in scripture and here's God's grace on them and here's how he uses them. Maybe that's the case. It comes across to me like a lot of comparison. Here's one big thing that bothered us as we were researching this book is that he doesn't exactly address those that he has hurt. No, he does talk about his wife and he does admit the problems that he had in their marriage and take responsibility.
38:20there. But other than that, he doesn't really have a specific address to those that he harmed. I justthink if you're going to come out of silence after letting down a lot of people, those people seem to be like theprimary audience that you're talking to, right? Like not just, not the people who need to be reminded thatthey like David can commit adultery and then be used by God. Like not all of the people who need to know,like, who is this loss in person anyway? Like what are all of his?credentials, it seems like it should be a letter of contrition. And that should be, if you're going tobreak your silence, like, that's the important thing here. If you're going to break your silence for thefirst time in almost two years, the first order of business is a letter of contrition.
39:09It's not an explanation. I'm not saying that he's justifying it because I don't think he is,but you could see how he's saying, look, I was so, so busy. And this is kind of what happens whenyou busy yourself and you're doing really important things. But that's not the first order ofbusiness. The first order of business to me is contrition and an attempt at some sort of, I don't evenknow if I could call it reconciliation if you're talking about two people that didn't actuallyknow each other in person. But just, I guess just an apology. Just, hey, like I am asking for yourforgiveness. I am confessing this. I have nothing but humility and nothing but the grace of Goddo I need? And this is just, this is what I'm offering. Not a lengthy list of all of the ways that you are similar to biblical
39:58characters. Just doesn't seem like the right way to break your silence. On page one, he writes,Some of you have already been crushed and burned. I pray that this book will encourage you to do whathonors God and persevere. Do not lose heart. As long as God is upon his throne, you have reason to hope.Others may be standing at a crossroads between making a good choice or a disastrous one.I desire that my account will prevent you from making a damaging one.Again, may be a worthy goal.Maybe a worthy target audience.But not yet.
40:31Not yet.Like, you are already trying to get back into ministry.You're already thinking of all of these different people who don't know you, who aretotally strangers, who stories that you don't know, that you're trying to reach, that you'retrying to teach, that you're trying to help.And some of that may be the, like, sincere heart of,a pastor and of a teacher, but I would say you're still disqualified from doing that.Like, you don't have the authority to do that yet. That's what I would say. This is still trying
41:00to assert yourself authoritatively as a teacher to people that you don't know. You haven't evenaddressed publicly the people who did feel like they knew you. The people who were really,really impacted because they were members of Trinity Bible Church. What's absent are any chaptersis devoted to the people on the other side of the scandal like this, the people, as I said,who trusted him, who learned from him, who recommended his books, or looked to him as an exampleof Christian faithfulness. Lawson acknowledges that his sin had terrible consequences for otherpeople, but he never speaks directly to that group. And we saw that. And the statement that hemade initially, too, it just seems like a really big omission. Like most of the people buying this book
41:48are likely not pastors on the verge of committing adultery.They're Christians who once respected Steve Lawson,who may have sat under his teaching literallyand are now trying to make sense of his downfall.And I think the greatest thing,the greatest gift that he could have offered is just,look, I could talk about all the different things,all the things that led up to this happening.
42:13But at the end of the day, I sent and it was wrong.and I am so sorry to every person I hurt.Just I guess if you want to say just letting y'all know I'm still alive,serving the church, working on my marriage, go on from there,if you are going to say anything.But selling a book about your story trying to minister to othersis just not the move yet.He could have said something like this to those his former congregants.
42:41Don't let my failure become an excuse for you to walk away from Christ.Don't confuse the faithfulness.of the message with the faithfulness of the messenger.He could have said, I wasn't a faithful messenger.The message that I said was correct because it was from the Word of God.But he's also kind of like apologizing for his message.But he never says whether in all the things of like, oh, I was too harsh in my preaching.But was it of the Word of God?
43:06Were you agreeing with God's word?Was it you that's too harsh?Or do you now think the Word of God is too harsh?Because to me, when I'm listening, he's basing what he's saying on Scripture.So what exactly are you apologizing for when you are doing this audit of your past servants?That's just an aside that I just thought of.But that could have been his apology, not the apology for the truth that he spoke,that maybe was a little bit too harsh for some people or harsher than what he would have liked to hear.
43:34But just an apology for his own faithlessness, he could have said, if something I taught you was true,it was because it came from scripture.He could have said, my hypocrisy does not make scripture.untrue. He could have said anything that I said in the past that was true was only true insofarit aligned with God's word. God is perfect and I'm so far from that. Let me tell you about our nextsponsor. It's alliance defending freedom. Freedom is given to us by God, not the government. We areendowed with certain unalienable rights, among them being life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.And these God given rights are tested on a daily basis. We've got tyrants both in this country and
44:15abroad who don't believe in these God-given rights that we have. And that's why I love Alliancedefending freedom because they are fighting for these freedoms, these constitutional rights every day.They are on the front lines, both here and in other countries, making sure that we can exerciseour freedom of speech, our religious liberty. They are fighting for things like biologicalreality, the difference between boys and girls protecting spaces for girls and women.They're doing such incredible work and the only way they can do these work, this work, all of theseattorneys sacrificing so much is through our donations. So if you want to invest in a future ofour country that will be inherited by your children, by your grandchildren, and so on, make a
44:57donation to Alliance to Fitting Freedom. Every dollar you give will be matched by a special grantwhile funds last. Go to join adaf.com slash alley. Make your donation today. Join adaf.comslash Allie.If Lawson is determined to write to the audience of other men, pastors, elders, leaders who might fall,he would need to actually give them advice on how to avoid what he did.Okay, that's another big thing.He doesn't talk about that.He avoids talking about the actual fall and what happened and how it happens.
45:38Like, that would be a good instruction manual because the book, I mean, that's the subtitle.How I fell. Or like, what happened? He doesn't really talk about what happened.Like, he doesn't talk about that. He talks about that he did and that there has been some effect, but like, he definitely doesn't silence any speculation. I just don't think he really wants to talk about that. He doesn't want to talk about his sin and how it happened.Um, Section 1 titled How I Fell contains the six chapters. The first five focused largely on loss and being overworked and overconfident, all those things that welisted, but he doesn't say, okay, this is how I, a grandfather in my 70s, started flirting with a woman inher 20s who lived in another state. He doesn't talk about that. And maybe he thinks he's fueling gossipby talking about that, but actually this is just making people speculate more. You don't talk aboutthe nature of your falling, which that to me just comes across as insincere. Unless you already knew
46:42about the scandal, you might have trouble figuring out exactly what went down.He says, the details of my story are not important. Bottom line, I had a simple relationshipwith a woman who's on my life. And my life became so decimated that only God could put it backtogether. Okay, he says that on page one. How did that happen? It wasn't just because you're busy,right? Like, there's a lot of busy people in the world. There's put a lot of busy people throughout historywho have not committed adultery and have not been unfaithful to his wife.I know that he writes about neglecting his wife in some ways, but what was it that enticed you to that?Like, what was it that led you into that temptation?
47:23What decisions did you specifically make to push away accountability and to push away honesty?What rules would you put in place if you could go back?He talks about some of that, but not really specifically.Was it the traveling by yourself?Was it something that you always wanted to do? Was this the first time that something like this happened?And you might say, well, that's none of our business. You wrote a book. If it's none of our business, don't write books. Okay? Don't write books about the scandal unless you are ready to be open and honest. He repeatedly refers very vaguely to my sin, but he mentions the other woman only one time. The truth is that my wrong relationship with another woman would have never occurred if I had maintained a healthy marriage.Maybe, maybe not. Maybe, maybe not. I think that there are also people who have a, they struggle with their marriage who don't commit adultery. And as he knows, I mean, he's been married longer than I have. Marriages go through tough seasons. They go through difficult seasons because of one or both or just circumstances. And I'm not sure that you could say that a healthy marriage would have saved you from making the sin. Like, let's be honest about why people sin. Ultimately, it's because you don't trust a one.Lord. It's not because your wife doesn't trust you or you don't trust your wife, whatever. It's
48:42because you don't trust the things that he says about sin and repentance and all of that.He only uses this word lust only once. He said, I had to make a full confession of my sin. I had toname it for what it was, immorality, unfaithfulness, betrayal, deception, lust, defiance. Okay.What do you mean? I would like to know. The word adultery, adulterous, and sexual never appear in the book.So we don't know. We don't know if he would consider it adultery or if he would consider it sexual.The omission matters because Lawson presents this book as a warning to other men.I don't think he needs to write some kind of like Colleen Hoover novel here.Like we don't need to know everything that went down or every thought that he thought or word that he said.
49:28But I do think it's important to know the nature of it.He says, I had always conducted my ministry by the well-known Billy Graham rule.I would never ride me in a car with a woman. I would not eat a meal alone with a woman. I would not counsel a woman alone. But the devillured me into his trap and I was careless. How could I have been so foolish? What'd you do? What part ofthe rules did you abandon? I'm not just asking to satiate my own curiosity. I'm actually not verycurious. I care in the sense that I think it's important that he's honest, but I don't have somekind of deep curiosity about all the details of their relationship. But if you are trying toguide other men, what to avoid? Okay, what was it? What was the one?
50:11time that you negotiated and that you said, okay, well, I'm just going to compromise. Did that leadto a series of other compromises? Did it start innocuous? Did it start that you just counseled her becauseshe came to you for advice and then it turned into something romantic because of a connection that you hadwasn't just completely like debauched lust? Like I think it's important. If you are going to nowput yourself in a position of writing this book and counseling other men for you to tell us whathabit? Like what was the carelessness so everyone else can avoid it? The problem isn't thatLawson refuses to give this salacious details. The problem is that he promises to explainhow I fell while skipping that part of the story. And you know, sometimes that happens. Sometimes
50:56we will title our episodes with something. And we're like, in my, in our memory, we're like,oh yeah, that was like a really prominent part of it. And then we'll listen back and we'llLike actually, that wasn't as prominent in the episode as what we thought.And so we have to change the title to make sure that it is an accurate description for the whole, for the entire episode.Okay.That's one thing.When you're moving quickly and you're putting an episode out, when you write an entire book and then you look back at the subtitle and you're like, I did not do that.You changed the subtitle.
51:26Like, it's a really big deal.He does not talk about how he fell.He might think that he did, but he didn't.And that's another thing with people who are so intellectual and so sophisticated.with their language, which he very much is.Like, sometimes you are too intellectual for your own good.You end up using a lot of spiritual euphemisms and you don't actually just say the deal.So the question is, is he now coming back into ministry?
51:50Like, is this his reintroduction into trying to mentor in counsel and reach young men?Again, that would be a problem based on what we see about overseers.But is that just the local church?would it be okay for him to start a podcast, for him to write books? And is this someone that peopleshould be listening to? I've got one more sponsor. It is Javity. So for years, I was going to differentdoctors trying to figure out what's going on with my thyroid, what's going on with my iron levels,like why do I feel so tired? And I never really had a clear picture of what was going on until Iused Javity. And I got a full thorough blood panel done. They sent a full bottomist straight to me.
52:33I got my blood drawn super simple, very painless, and all of the results were uploaded to myprofile in my Javity app. I was able to see everything really quickly, but I wasn't just left to wonder,okay, what does actually any of this mean? They have a doctor who works with Javity,interpret my result, and leave me a video explaining exactly what every single thing means and what Ineed to do to maximize my health. Oh, you see that this is low. Well, this is what you need to be doing.you need to see this specialist or you need to be taking this supplement. This is the kind of dietthat would be best for you. This is the kind of exercise that would be best for you. Super, super help. I'm so gladwe did that before we got pregnant. This fourth time, it helps ensure that I was in a good help place.
53:17And you can do that too. You don't have to wonder anymore. You don't have to go from doctor to doctorbeing like, well, someone, please test all of these things. Just go through Jevity. And they can evenhelp you find the right specialist for you if you need one. Take your health seriously. Go to Go,Gojevity.com slash alley for 20% off.Gogevity.com slash alley.Just to kind of wrap this up, we see at the end, he seems to be alluding to the fact that he's not done with ministry.He's talking about when this scandal happened, he said at one elder's meeting, one of the men walked up to me with a pap in his step, with a bounce in his steps, shook my hand, looked me square in the eyes and said, God is not finished with you yet.Those words caught me off guard, but gave me some sense of hope for whatever the future might hold.
54:11Okay. I don't know. I don't know if I like the sound of that. Stephen Lawson worries me just a little bit.It's true that God is not finished with you yet in that you are still alive and you still have breath in your lungs.And God promises to complete the good work that he started in all of us.And he will do that because he's faithful. But I take a back seat.Like I just don't, it doesn't seem to me from reading this book and hearing what we hear that this is, that ministry is for you in the future. Now, I don't know. I'm not God. I'm not claiming to be a prophetess over here. But we do know that the position of an overseer, I think you're just permanently disqualified from that. And it's hard for me to see how you would be not functionally trying to be that. Like,an overseer or have some authority if you come back into ministry at all.Like, is there a way for you to privately use the gifts that you have to minister within your marriage,to your kids, to your grandkids that has no, um, no potential whatsoever to put you back
55:21into this place of pride that led you to the place of infidelity?That maybe is what I would consider.And I wouldn't be selling that for $15.a pop. He said, having poured God's word into them, he's talking about the different men he'sbeen toward for over a decade at a church, they wanted me to speak to them again. They wanted me totell them what I learned from my thought. That's towards the end of the book. He writes that he'sreturned to this church a few times. So this was a church in Arkansas that he had pastored for 14 years.He said, I've made a few trips back and they've ministered to me far more than I ever ministered
56:04to them. So is he trying to say that he's going to go back and preach and pastor? I don't know.Apparently he did say in the beginning that he knows that he's permanently disqualified and that is a goodacknowledgement. And my opinion is that he needs to stay there. I also think again, the word ofGod makes clear, got to be above reproach. And I don't think that you can ever be considered abovereproach again. Can you be absolutely forgiven by God? Totally. And I pray again that his marriage would berestored and that they would be healed and that he would know who he is in Christ. But I don't thinkhaving a platform would be good for other people or for him. All right. That wraps up that story.Let me know what you think about it. If you read his book or if you've read any of the
56:50commentary on it, let me know what you think. Let me know if you benefited from it at all or if youhave a totally different perspective than me. Okay, there's one more thing that I wanted to addresson today's episode. A lot of you guys have been asking me about this story, Caleb Flynn.It feels like we've been doing a lot of true crime lately, which is not typically something that wecover when we've got the Lindsay Clancy and we've got the Cornell 7, and we also had thedeath of the pastor's wife that we've been talking about. And this is tough. And this is why,by the way, guys, I think I told you about this, that after the whole Lindsay Clancy thing,and we covered that so thoroughly, I deleted my X app. I got off X for a period of time. I still
57:30and barely on it. You can go see my tweets. I'm not replying to people. I'm not scrolling through.Like I've tweeted a few times, I think, in the past couple of weeks about, you know, some topics that I want to give a thoughtful response to.But I'm not scrolling X because it just your algorithm changes depending on what you click on. And of course, I was clicking on Lindsay Clancy stuff.And so every other tweet is about a mom murdering her kids. And I just can't. It's so sad. You can only take so much of that. People ask me all the time.how do you talk about all of these like sad deed things? Well, I really have to kind of compartmentalize it. I can't let it feed into every area of my life. Of course, like having the Holy Spirit and just getting the grace from God to be able to talk about these really tough things is like the biggest part of that and having family and friends in a very normal, joyful life helps a lot too. But sometimes, especially the social media stuff, it does get too much and I just got to take a step back. So as you guys have been asking me about this Caleb Flynn story, I'm like, I don't even know.Like, because I'm not on Twitter, you miss a lot.And I had to dig into this and say, okay, like, what exactly is going on?And unfortunately, it is similar to the death of the past year's wife story, but we don't have time to get into all of it.
58:43I did want to highlight what some of the victims Ashley Flynn's family said in court over the past, over the past few days.So let me give you a little bit of background, not all of the details, but just a summary of what went down and then highlight some of the things that they said.that they said that I thought just were really biblically poignant.So Caleb Flynn, 40 years old, was sentenced to life in prison this week without parole for the murder of his wife, Ashley Flynn, 37, school teacher, volleyball coach.On October 5th, a jury convicted him of murder, felonious assault, tampering with evidence, and other charges.Flynn had been a music pastor.He briefly appeared on American Idol in 2013.Prosecutors said that and successfully argued that Flynn killed Ashley,
59:29because he wanted out of their marriage.And he was having an affair.He shot her while she was asleep in their Tip City, Ohio home in February26, while their two young daughters were in the house.He was having an affair with a much younger church intern.Her name was Alia Botner.She met Flynn in 2022 when she was 20 at his church.Their affair lasted more than a year.
59:55Botner testified that Flynn told her he hated his wife.and wanted to kill her.There was some testimony that I saw when she was in court,and she was made to read some of the texts that she had sent himand they sent back and forth.And one of the things that Alia had said to him during their affair was,I want to kill her.I want to kill her.
01:00:21And he also repeated the same sentiment in texts.Caleb texted her the night before the murder,I choose you, I'm free, actions will come tomorrow. I mean, the fact that this loser is still standing up and saying, oh no, I still maintain my innocence, I did not do it. I mean, this was such an open and shut. This was such an open and shut case. All of the evidence was so incredibly damning. He tried to disguise the murder as a home invasion. Did these people not know that, like, the law enforcement can read your texts? Like, they're going to see yourtext. They're going to say, I mean, sin makes you stupid. Sin makes you stupid. That's the principle here,maybe throughout this entire episode. Prosecutors present insignificant circumstantial evidence.Flynn's electronic devices showed he was moving around the house when he claimed he was asleep.Sleeping alibi didn't work. And letters read aloud in court, Flynn's 10 and 12-year-old daughtersaddressed their father, calling on him to tell the truth, accept the consequences of his actions and repent to God.
01:01:27play you this of their daughters, 10 and 12 year old girls should never ever have to go throughsomething like this. They are about to be left without a biological parent and their wife because of sin,because of the disgusting nature of their father's choices, because of the lust and the pride andeverything that leads you to make these decisions. Now these 10 and 12 year old girls are left withouttheir mom that they loved and now will be left without their dad. And also just an FYI, these letters arenot being read by the daughters. They are being read by a woman. These are letters that they wroteor a letter that they wrote their dad that someone else is reading on their behalf in court.Soot, too. Dear Caleb, this is your daughter, Alyssa. I love you deeply with all my heart,
01:02:17and it's sad that you can't love anyone but yourself. I wish that you could come to understandthat actions have consequences, and you havea lot to pay. So please, you have already caused so much pain to your family and the world.The least you could do is tell everyone you did it and receive your outcome. Also, please repent toGod, the one who created you. Your time isn't over. Oh, that, those last lines are from a place oflove and grace from his daughters. Like, they,want their dad to be restored to God. They want his repentance because they want him to be forgiven.They don't want him to go to hell. That is love. Like they are hurt, but he's saying, they're saying,
01:03:09look, you are made by God and you can still be restored to him if you repent. Those are wise girls.Obviously, there was a lot going on in their home, but the Holy Spirit has filled them andprotect them. Just pray for those girls. Pray for all kids that have dealt with something like that,that God would just supernaturally protect them and guide them and give them wisdom and strength to put grace on their life.Ashley Flynn's the victim's parents told Caleb in court that they forgave him, but then asked the judge for the maximum sentence because they desired absolute earthly justice for Ashley.This is very important.Stop three.Jesus tells us that if we want to be forgiven of our sins, we must forgive others their sins.
01:03:53And I want you to know that Jill might be forgiven.myself and our whole entire family that's here and everywhere, we forgive you for taking Ashley's life and also for what you have done to all of us.We will not let anger or bitterness consume the wonderful memory of Ash.Your Honor, while we choose forgiveness for our own hearts, we still desire absolute justice for Ashley.Because of the violent nature of her murder compounded by a,lack of responsibility, confession, or remorse, we as a family ask you to sentence him to thefullest extent of the law. So there's a whole conversation in there to be had about forgivenessis forgiveness necessary when the forgiveness has not been sought. We had that conversation with
01:04:44Elisa Childers on my show that she can go back and listen to, but what they're communicatingand is 100% correct, they're releasing bitterness. They're releasing malice. They're saying,I don't own this anymore. I'm not holding this. I'm not holding this burden and I want you torepent and I want you to be reconciled to God. At the same time, you need to be punished by the law.The law was invented by God. The government was invented by God. The government's responsibilityto execute the law and execute murders, by the way, was invented by God. People were very upsetby what I said about Krista Pike in my defense of the death penalty for murder.I mean, I'm going to be standing 10 toes down on that because I agree with God.
01:05:33I agree with God in Genesis 9.And even though this person is not giving the death penalty, which actually is unjust,it's unjust that he's not getting the death penalty because God says it even before theestablishment of Israel, before the establishment of ancient Israel's law, he says that thedeath penalty is the due punishment for murder because of a reason it's still true today,man is made in God's image. That is why he demands the death penalty for murder. It's not becausehe's cool, but because human life matters so much that the only proportionate punishmentfor intentionally murdering an innocent person is death to yourself. That's how much God cares about
01:06:13this. That's what a big, huge deal this is. So the injustice that's happening is not that he's going toprison for too long, but then he's not giving the death penalty. Butsince this was the accidents that could have been given, that's what they're asking for.And they're right about that.When Jesus is talking about turning the other cheek, when we read Vengeance's mind says the Lord,I will repent.When we read that we aren't supposed to do the whole I for an eye thing anymore,he is not talking to the government.
01:06:44Jesus is not talking to the state.He's not saying we shouldn't have any earthly justice anymore.By that logic, we shouldn't have any prisons.We shouldn't have any fines.you shouldn't have any speaking tickets.You shouldn't have any punishment whatsoever because oh, we're just supposed to give, forgive.And we're just supposed to give grace because that's what God calls us to do.Or Jesus is talking about interpersonal relationships and he's not talking about the state delegating justice.
01:07:08In Romans 13, we read that the government does not bear the sword in vain, that the government was instituted by God to punish the wrongdoer.That kind of order is good for people.It's good for societies.it's good for countries.As I said, Flynn continued to deny Ashley at sentencing.He said, I stand here before God, who is my ultimate judge?I am not lying when I say I did not kill my life.Well, the jury is no longer out on that one.
01:07:36They don't believe you.And so he will be punished for this.Not enough in my estimation, but continue to pray for these victims.All right, y'all, I don't usually do this at the end of Wednesday's episodes,But I feel like with all this darkness, I do need to remind you that God's eternal plan of redemption is going off without a hitch.And that he's not doing nothing about the evil that goes on in the world, that he's coming back and his wrath is kindling.And he is going to take vengeance for his people.And he cares about the shedding of innocent blood.
01:08:08He cares about it so much that he is going to do away with it forever and ever.And Jesus will rule in perfect peace.He's coming again one day.And he's not coming as a meek baby born in a manger.he's coming on riding on the clouds on a horse with a sword coming out of his mouth and a tattoo on his thigh. Very different picture. The Messiah that is to come and he is coming to do away with evil and evil doers and the evil one forever and ever. And that's what we get to look forward to perfect justice, perfect recompense. And ensure that you are reconciled to God before that. And you can by grace through faith in Christ. That's the free gift that he gives us through Jesus his sacrifice. And that is really good news.I know it's hard to talk about this darkness and this sadness sometimes, but the existenceof darkness is sometimes the best and most compelling case for the existence of light.You don't have to convince someone that's suffering, the evil, that bad exists when we talk
01:09:01about some of the stories that we've talked about today.But if bad exists, that is automatically acknowledging that there is a good and evil.And if there is good, where does it come from?And who gets to say?We as Christians have the answer.And so we have to know about some of this darkness going on.in the world and have our gospel response to it.All right, that's all we've got time for today.
01:09:23We will be back here on Friday.
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