Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Bellum Entertainment

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

This week, Chelsea and Iman investigate The Cult of Bellum Entertainment, the true crime production company whose founder, Mary Carol McDonald, allegedly spent years building a very different kind of crime empire behind the scenes. True crime podcaster Jami Rice (@jamionair) joins us with an especially wild perspective: she was working at the bank that approved McDonald for a $15 million loan after she allegedly posed as an heiress to an $80 million fortune. We get into bouncing paychecks, unpaid freelancers, fake family lore, suspiciously persuasive baked goods, a lawyer with his own bonkers backstory, and the sunk-cost psychology that kept employees hanging on even as the red flags started multiplying. Come for the Hollywood labor exploitation, stay for the revelation that apparently even the pies were part of the grift. Granny Delvy, your table is ready. Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  Pre-order Iman's new book, Once in a Timeline, here! Your pre-order helps make more books possible! Sounds Like A Cult is coming to you LIVE from The Elysian in LA on October 15th! Get tickets at soundslikeacult.com! Thank you to our sponsors! Thanks to Article for sponsoring this podcast! Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit h⁠⁠⁠ttps://www.article.com/discount/cult ⁠⁠⁠and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This back-to-school season, spend less on your kids with Amazon. Hi, I'm Laura Clary, mom, chaos coordinator, and someone who has learned the hard way that back-to-school season is basically a second mortgage. Last year, my daughter decided she absolutely needed this very specific backpack, not just any backpack, the backpack. I found it, I bought it, I sent her off on the first day of school. She lost it by week two, gone forever. So remember, with Amazon,

Amazon's low back-to-school prices, just spend less on your kids because every dollar you don't spend on them is a dollar you haven't spent on them. Oh my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh. What? You didn't hear this for me, but normal gossip could be your new favorite podcast.

Join me, Rachel Hampton, as I share the juiciest gossip from the real world. In every episode, we anonymized some gossip sent in by a listener, and we share that story with a special guest. Normal gossip is available now on YouTube and all of your favorite podcast platforms. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. She owed all these payday loan companies and financial institutions, friends. She ends multi-millions of dollars.

Like I'm talking numbers that are just staggering. And she needed that $15 million loan at Bank of California. Like her life depended on it. 30 days later, first payment comes due on that $15 million loan. She's nowhere to be found. Doesn't make the payment. So they call in the FBI. They call in corporate security.

So you're telling me that she was producing some of the cultiest true crime shows on television while literally running her own true crime ring behind the scenes. She had to have one hell of a mouthpiece to be able to convince all of these people to do this thing. This is Sounds Like a Colts, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology. And I'm Imondri Kiya, author of Female Fantasy, The Most Famous Girl in the World, and 100 other girls. Every week on the show, we discuss a different zyghai, group that puts the cult in culture from sleepaway camps to insoles to try to answer the big

question this group sounds like a cult but is it really and if so which of our cult categories does it fall into live your life a watch your back or a get the fuck out after all cultish influence falls along a continuum these days and look the word cult can mean a lot of things It's subjective and context-dependent, sometimes sensational, other times useful, other times cheeky and fun. This show, as those who've been listening for a while already know, is all about analyzing the ways cultishness shows up in everyday life. To examine the ways in which we are all susceptible to cult influence, but also to compare how not all cult these days are created equal. And, of course, to have a laugh about it along the way. This week, we're switching things up a bit and diving into a cult that's been orbiting the reality TV world.

My bread and butter. A space built on the idea that truth is always just one episode away. What makes today's topic especially wild is that we're talking about a production company known for telling true crime stories that ended up at the center of one itself, the cults of Bellum Entertainment. I just want to talk a little bit about why I even wanted to do this topic in the first place. So first things first, I'm in a group chat that helps employees marginalized groups, specifically women. So obviously, you know, this industry, as a lot of industries, are known for kind of like not employing a lot of women. So this group is comprised of over like 20,000 women that help get each other employed. So a lot of the times it's just job postings or people saying, hey, watch out for this person

because this person is predatory. This came across the group chat. It was posted by one of the users basically talking about how she has experienced predatory behavior by the hands of this one company. And this company, Bellum Entertainment, and it's charismatic leader and founder, Mary Carol McDonald, has been known over the years for telling these wonderful, wonderful, very famous true crime stories. And ultimately, she started this company and didn't pay a lot of the people. So these people were working tirelessly all these long hours.

If you heard anything about working in production, basically you work more than 12 hours. So these people are working all these long hours. They're not getting paid. And she would just keep giving these false promises like, oh yeah, another week. Oh, yeah, another month. And she started racking up like some people were owed over like $20,000. And I don't know. I just felt like it touches on a cycle of abuse that is not talked about enough in reality TV. I mean, we've seen it play out in different series like Unreal or more recently the America's

Next Top Model documentary, how obviously it talks mostly about the contestants, but it doesn't really speak a lot about what happens behind the scenes. So I wanted to just talk a little about that and expose some of the predatory behavior that's in the world of reality TV. Yeah, this is so fascinating because honestly, before today, I had never heard of Bellam Entertainment. My relationship to reality TV is honestly very tendential. I'm not a huge reality TV consumer. I grew up watching Rock of Love and the Kardashians and some of like the vintage reality TV shows, but sort of teetered off during the rise of the Bravo era, even though I do feel like because I worked in media for a long time, I did have to keep my finger on the pulse of whatever was happening in the

pop cultural zeitgeist. So my relationship to the cult of reality TV in general is a lot more of one, I find that people love to condescend towards industries or phenomena that are popularized primarily by women. So I am a huge defender of reality TV, especially against any who tries to say it is trivial and mind-numbing and doesn't have any sort of social context. And then also, I'm so glad you mentioned this, I did use to watch Unreal. And I did find that Unreal was a really fascinating look at behind the scenes of what goes into the production and the storytelling of reality TV, aka Your Holrizondetra. So since watching Unreal, I've read a lot of novels that talk.

about the production of reality TV. I'm fascinated by that look behind the curtain. So I cannot wait to hear more about what's actually happening at Bellum Entertainment. Yes. Well, let's dig into it. Can you jump into a little bit of the history of Bellum for us? So for our listeners who are true crime lovers, you may actually recognize the name Bellum entertainment, Los Angeles-based production company, because it's been in the unscripted TV games since the early 2000s, building a reputation as a high-volume content machine. So if you've ever fallen down like a true crime rabbit hole on cable or on streaming, chances are you've actually already seen their work. They produce series like corrupt crimes, it takes a killer,

I'm married a murderer, and over the ears, they've carved out a lane in the true crime space. So Colties, here's where it actually becomes a cult. Like many production companies, Bellum has a culty cult leader at the top. Enter Mary Carol McDonald, the company's former CEO and founder, who for years was seen as the driving force behind the success of the company. Internally, there was a narrative that she had access to significant personal wealth and that the company was on the brink of something major. And then that's when the story started to unravel. Because while Bellum was busy producing crime,

its own leadership was becoming part of one. McDonald was indicted on charges including bank fraud, identity theft, accused of falsely presenting herself as an heiress to secure millions of dollars in loans, and as of now, she's a fugitive, currently wanted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I don't know, somebody said that she is cozied up in Dubai, honey. I was like, damn. They never get her back. She's on that man-made ski course.

Wow, that's crazy. This is so meta. So you're telling me that she was producing some of the cultiest true crime shows on cable television while literally running her own true crime ring behind the scenes. That's culty behavior 101. 101. And you know what?

I also was thinking, I'm like, what if the fraud portion is fake? And what if she just wanted to create this like true crime? I'm documentary about herself. I don't know. Because to me, this is just so ridiculous. The fact that she is a true crime producer and then is doing some fuck shit, I don't know. Well, you know how sometimes novelists who write about crime, thriller, and murder actually figure out how they could get away with murder and are inspired to try out crimes of their own. Exactly. Maybe she started being like, wow, this is actually inspo. This is really starting to look, tempting. Goals. Now, Coltie, this would not be a slack analysis if we didn't dig into the background of our charismatic leader, Mary Carol McDonald, except not much can be found online about

her childhood. But she didn't act alone. Enter the lawyer. Every good story has one. His name is Barry Rothman. And according to court records, he's the one who introduced Mary Carol McDonald to a bank executive, essentially saying, you know, she passes the vibe check. She's legit. She's got all this money, right? And once that happens, the vibe shifts. And suddenly, they're taking meetings. They're talking the banks. They're talking real, real bankroll.

Okay? And it's being discussed in very serious rooms. And in those rooms, Mary allegedly defrauded and hold on to your bridges, okay? $15 million by presenting herself as an heiress to the McDonald Aircraft Fortune with access to $80 million in a trust. Has Netflix heard about this? No. Somebody get Shonda rhymes on the phone right now.

Maybe, baby. Shonda would do this justice, I'm sure. But this is the thing. 80 million? And you want to know what's crazy? This would have been cool if maybe the McDonald's Fortune would have at least been like a distant cousin. She has no relation to these people whatsoever.

What? Are you kidding me? To these people whatsoever. Okay. Honestly, I'm really distracted in trying to cast the Netflix adaptation in my head. You're doing an amazing job of explaining this right now. But I'm like, who's free? Patricia Clarkson? Like, let's get their agents on the line. I don't know. If she's bored in Dubai, like this would make a really great screenplay. She should anonymously submit. She really should. But here's the thing. A culty charismatic leader con artist story works because other people co-signed the story. And in the In this case, one of the co-signers was that lawyer, which makes it all the more wild that, and this is, this is the gotcha, gotcha. Barry Rothman mysteriously died in 2018. Are you fucking kidding me?

He mysteriously passed away, Iman. Right around the time everything started to unravel. Now, allegedly, okay, because we got to keep saying allegedly, because this girl, this lady's still on a run. I don't want her to come back from Dubai and try to sue us, okay? allegedly he died right after a routine dental procedure. That's the T. Okay.

This, by the way, is making me want to quit my job because never in my wildest dreams could I come up with a fictitious narrative as juicy as the truth of this cult. What the actual. I think it's insane. I think a routine dental procedure is the best they could come up with. Listen. Again, I am. nosy as hell. So I tried to do all the digging I could to figure out like, has this man really

passed away? Where are the death records? You know? Yeah. But yeah, something is rank in the state of Denmark. So today we're talking about Bellum Entertainment, the production company and about what happens when a story turns into a belief system and everyone around it starts to buy in. So to help us unpack today's topic, we are joined by podcaster and true crime storyteller, Jamie Rice. Jamie is the host of Murderish, Bravo's Most Wanted, and Dirty Money Moves,

where she covers everything from reality TV scandals to high profile crimes and financial fraud. She also previously covered Bellam Entertainment on her own show, so she's already spent

some time digging into the company in its history. This back-to-school season spend less on your kids with Amazon. Hi, I'm Laura Clary, mom, overthinker, and someone who has a complicated relationship with the back-to-school supply list.

Can we just be honest for a second? Kids are expensive. Last year, I went all out on my daughter's school supplies, color-coded folders, the fancy pencil case, gel pens and 17 colors she absolutely needed. By October, she had one pencil left. One. I don't know what happened to the rest, and honestly, neither does she. Amazon has everything your kids need for back-to-school at prices that won't make you want to

cry in the school supply aisle. Great prices, huge selection, and when half of it goes missing by October, at least you didn't break the bank. So remember, with Amazon's low back-to-school prices, just spend less on your kids, because every dollar you don't spend on them is a dollar you haven't spent on them. If you have nothing nice to say, you can sit with us. I'm Suzanne Lambert, comedian, mean girl, and internet menace, and this is the mean but true podcasts. Every week, a special guest in and I will talk pop culture, current events, romance, whatever we feel like. I don't know. Are you a cop? We'll be keeping it funny, playful, and petty,

per usual. You cringe at the site of people posting QR codes to fund their own bachelette parties. You need to know how to respond to that coworker with the bad haircut who's always making digs or just need to get something off your chest. Make sure to subscribe to mean but true wherever you listen to podcasts, unless of course you hate fun and which. case, don't. I'm Susanne Lambert, and this is mean, but true. Jamie, thank you so much for joining us. Could you please introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us a little about your relationship with Bellum Entertainment? Yeah, absolutely. First off, thanks so much for having me on, ladies. It's so great to meet you. I am connected to the Bellum

entertainment story because in, well, I'm a full-time content creator. I have a couple true crime podcast, like you said. I've got a Bravo podcast just for funsies and a palette cleanser from all the dark true crime. But in 2018, I was working in downtown L.A. at Bank of California. And a woman named Mary Carol MacDonald submitted an application with my very close colleague for a $15 million loan. And the bank ends up approving the loan. And right before it was about to be approved and funded, Mary Carol, as rich as she was, as arras as she was, drove her porch through L.A. traffic and came all the way down to downtown L.A. to the bank, came up to the 20-something floor where we were working to bring us homemade pies. So she walks in and we're in this meeting and the meeting room had all glass

windows. So like even the doors. So everybody could see us. We could see everybody walking in. So I see her walking in and my first impression of her is like, bitch is rich. You know, like she looked rich. She had like a pressed white buttoned down colored shirt. She had some like really nice blue jeans that are cuffed at the bottom, like tan colored mule. She had a Birken in one hand, and then she had a bag of two pies in the next hand. And I remember thinking, this is the only thing that I thought was strange about it at the time. I mean, I had to look back and do kind of like a hindsight as 2020 to really understand how bizarre this was. But I thought everything was legit.

I thought she was this wealthy heiress. That's what she told us. She was referred to the bank by what we thought was a reputable, well-known entertainment lawyer named Barry Rothman. He worked in L.A. He'd represented The Who, the Rolling Stones, Yolanda Hadid from the House. wives, so he was legit, right? Or so he thought, she comes in, she brings these pies. But the only thing I thought at the time was like, why is this wealthy heiress and really successful CEO of this true crime production company making time to come and bring us pies? Like, that's crazy to me.

Like, doesn't she have better things to do? But I was also like super intrigued. I had just recently launched Murderish, my first true crime podcast. So I was like, oh, telling my colleague, you know, maybe I could interview Mary Carol one day. And she actually agreed to it. She's like, yeah, tell Jamie to contact me. I'll be on her podcast. I never did. But basically, she came in, she brought us the pies. The pies were great. 30 days later, first payment comes due on that $15 million loan. She's nowhere to be found. Doesn't make the payment. This is essentially like the oh shit moment where the bank's like, well, we might have been defrauded out of $15 million. Like, what are we going to do now? So they call in the FBI. They call in corporate security.

Everybody gets involved. And we come to find out that the whole thing was an elaborate scam and fraud and she really wasn't who she said she was. We didn't know that at the time it took me investigating it a few years later in launching my podcast to really dive in and understand who she was what she had done over the last few decades. And per my investigation, like she had basically scammed people and institutions out of about $50 million over the last few decades. And it was just such a wild story. But I couldn't stop thinking about her when I left the bank in 2018. So I approached my podcast network years later, like in 2021, 2021, 2022. I was like, there's this lady who defrauded my bank out of 15 million. I think that the story's much bigger than what we thought

on the surface. And holy shit, it was when I dove into the details. Oh, my God. The way I would be checking to make sure those pies weren't poisoned. I'd be like, girl, you take a bite first. You first. So let's back up a little bit. For listeners who maybe aren't as familiar with this company, can you please briefly explain what Bellum Entertainment is and what initially caught your attention about the story? Yeah. So Bellum Entertainment was a true crime TV production company based in Los Angeles. So that's what's kind of wild about it. It's like, little did everybody know the CEO of Bellum, Mary Carol McDonald, would turn out to be. a criminal herself. She had been ripping people off for multi-millions for decades. So they were producing

true crime TV shows. They were like low-budget cheesy shows. Like I married a murderer and all kinds everything. Murder this, murder that. I stab my sister, whatever. Like just all kinds of, that's not a real show. But, you know, like she just, everything was murder, murder, murder, and it was like low-budget, churn and burn. And that's what Bellam Entertainment was. So first of all, I just want to say, Jamie, your perspective is so unique because the fact that you are in this podcast world, in this entertainment world, but you actually had some type of like rapport with Mary Carol McDonald before this entire thing took off. So this is insane. So based on your reporting and the people that you've spoken with, how would you describe the internal culture within Bellum?

What was it like to work with Mary Carroll McDonald and what things kind of struck out to you as particularly culty? Yeah, that's a great question. What we didn't know at the time, see, we were the bankers. We just thought Bellam Entertainment is this legit, successful, true crime TV production company. Everything's on the up and up. How cool. What a cool business to finance, you know? But little did we know inside Bellum, it was complete chaos.

And it was a house of cards, unbeknownst to the people who worked there. there were many, many, many issues with paychecks bouncing left and right. Oh, you'll get your money. Mary Carol would tell people, oh, shoot, we're having bank fraud again. Oh, gosh, I'll get you that money. And so it became like a race to the bank for people who worked for Bellum, I'm talking producers, camera crew, anybody. And as soon as they got that paycheck, they would literally hightel it to the bank to be like, damn, I hope this one goes through because many times they would get there and the money wasn't there. And Mary Carol always had an excuse. And she, she even convinced people to uproot their lives and move to Alabama or move to Los Angeles and like, oh, you're going to come work for me and this company's so successful and we're going to do great

together. And it really was just very culty, you know, because you've got this leader who's lying to everybody, but somehow she's able to manipulate and just emotionally abuse and convince these people to come work for her and do all these things for her. So she was reaping the benefits of all these finished shows, but payments were not being made for the people who had worked on it. Even Jim Clemente, you know, he's a big name in the true crime world. He was a talking head on at least one of her shows, like as an expert because he worked, you know, for the FBI. And he even had to sue her for money.

Like it just, so many people had to eventually end up suing her for their money. And what eventually happened is we didn't know it at the bank. I mean, the bank should have known, and that's a story for another day. There were red flags. The bank should have never approved that $15 million loan, like, ever. But what we didn't know is that that company was about to fold. Her whole world financially was crumbling. She owed all these payday loan companies and financial institutions, friends, multi millions of dollars. Like I'm talking numbers that are just staggering. And she needed that $15 million loan at Bank of California.

Like her life depended on it. And I have always said like, she probably unclinched her butt cheeks the day. That $15 million loan was approved. But she's like, hallelujah. Yeah. Exhale. Yeah. This actually perfectly transitions into my next question because, I mean, this is textbook cult, right? Like one of the most defining characteristics of a cult is the presence of this central leader whose personality and authority is so charismatic and inseparable from the organization itself. So I'm wondering from your research, what is it about Mary Carol McDonald? Like, how did former employees describe her leadership style?

And did she seem to sort of function as that kind of all-powerful charismatic figure within Mellum? You know what's interesting is I would love to tell you, yes, she was just this typical charismatic cult leader. Everybody adored her. Everybody loved her. She was so this and that. She really wasn't, according to people. Like, she really wasn't all that well put together. Like, her fashion was blackies.

It was the pies. I swear the pies. The pies got that $15 million loan over the goal line. Like, I swear. And my theory is those pies were absolutely, interestingly enough, they were part of her grift. That was her trying to seal the deal and come off as like this innocent elderly woman who loves to bake. And oh, I'm just so grateful that you're helping me out. But you know, she really, according to people, she was kind of frumpy.

Like she would wear these like tacky pearls. Who knows if they were fake or not? Who knows if the burk and she carried was fake or not? Like it really was just a front and she wasn't all that charismatic. I've never heard anybody say, oh my God, she used to make me laugh. She's so funny. She's so charming. it was kind of not like that. So I don't fully understand how she was able to get all this money

out of people other than she was looked at, whether charismatic or not, she was looked at as somebody who was at the top of her game, who knew her shit, who really had like the success to back it up. She had the big boat. She had the poor. She had the $3.4 million home in La Cenaiazza Flint Ridge. Like she had all the things. So she had an air of authority and success and the heiress bit worked on people. They truly believed her that she had all this money coming in from the McDonald-Douglas fortune. And so just all of that couple together, when somebody says something to you with their full chest and they don't flinch, and then you see all the nice things they have around them. It's like, it's such a big lie. How could it be a lie? It's got to be true, right? And so then

all these smart people, like her attorney friends invested hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think one of them invested over a million because they believed her that much. And she had all these different schemes. Like one of her schemes was just to go to a payday loan company or a financial institution, borrow the money with false documents and never pay it back. That's one, right? But then she also had like, hey, I'm an heiress. I'm about to inherit $80 million in the next year or so. I have been named the executor of my family trust. And we have a gifting program that you can get about a 20 to 25% return. So maybe just wet your beak, you know, invest about $100,000 and you'll get that return. And oftentimes, some of them would get a return.

And it's called Wedding the Beak, where it's like, just invest 100,000. She gives them their 20% return. That makes them want to invest more. And that's when she doesn't give them a return and takes all their money. She just had all these different schemes. And I just think she had an air of authority and she said it with her full chest. People believed the heiress bit, which was never true. Even her husband thought it was true for the longest time, her second husband.

I mean, the whole thing is just bizarre. And it makes you scratch your head like, but how did she keep this going for decades? And I always say she's like Anna Delvey, but on steroids. She's definitely giving- Anna. She's like the grandma Anna. Yeah. Definitely.

I mean, okay, so it's so funny when we talk about the charismatic leader, because like I guess in previous episodes, we talked about this personality that's just so big and robust. And you're saying that she didn't necessarily have that, but she had to have one hell of a mouthpiece to be able to, you said her second husband and her like friends, a friend giving you a million dollars, girl. And like you said, there were some red flags initially with the bank that they kind of ignored. She had to have one hell of a mouthpiece to be able to convince all of these people to do this thing. She did. And you know, luck was on her side because

at the very time that she came to Bank of California to get that $15 million loan, she came at the perfect time because when I worked at the bank at that time, the bank was desperate for deposits. And I'm talking like desperate. Every sales meeting we had, the bank CEO would be like, repeat after me, deposits, deposits, deposits. Banks need deposits in order to go and loan out that money and make interest income. That's how they make all their money is off interest income from loans. But if they don't have enough deposits, they can't make loans, which hurts their profits. So they saw money. They literally were like, they zeroed in on the fact that this is a wealthy heiress. She's got $80 million coming. She gave false documents.

I believe or at least said she had like a couple million in her business operating accounts for Bellum. So they were going to get those deposits. So the bank thought they stood to receive multi-milliones in deposits. So they're like, yeah, we'll give this $15 million loan that's fully cash secured, or at least they thought. That was also fake. The collateral wasn't real. But, I mean, my theory, they let greed and desperation get in the way of making a sound loan decision

because there were so many red flags. This is not a woman who had great credit. This is a woman who was being investigated by the board when you don't pay your employees. Oh, the labor. The labor. Thank you. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. She was currently being investigated. The bank knew all of that. And they still went and gave her this $15 million loan. And again, the bank thought that they had covered or mitigated other risk by taking an investment account worth what they thought was $28 million as cash collateral. Should she default on the loan, they could just go cash in that investment and be made whole. Little did they know that investment account actually didn't even exist.

But that loan should have never been made, in my strong opinion. You mentioned that there were a lot of red flags. And I'm curious, like, of all the stories that you've collected, was there like a single common turning point? Do you think there was a come to Jesus moment when people started realizing, wait a second, something isn't right. This just isn't adding up. Yeah.

I mean, for the people who invested in her family trust gifting program, it was, hey, we're asking for our money, but you're not giving it to us. And she always had an excuse. Then she'd stopped returning emails and then maybe you'd get one email, but it would be vague. But, you know, that's when those people who'd been scammed by her kind of realized like, oh, shoot, this isn't looking good. I've now asked for my money like five times. And she's putting me off. And these are not stupid people. They're like, okay, something's up. They started to worry. At the bank, you know, her final big scam. She might be running scams now, you know, she's on the run and sources. say she is. But what I say is her biggest get yet was the $15 million at the bank. We only knew about it

when she didn't make her first payment. And then the loan officer tries to call her like, hey, Mary Carol, I think you forgot about your payment. She doesn't return calls. Then the top execs at the bank try to get a hold of her. Oh, not calling her back. And then that's when he was struck. Because the guy who actually penned the deal, the chief credit officer at the bank, imagine how he felt signing off on this loan thinking, oh my God, this was fraud. Like none of this was real. He, made a phone call. This is when he knew. He made a phone call to the bank Northern Trust where the collateral account was held. So there's that $28 million investment account, supposedly in Mary Carol's name that she had pledged as collateral for the $15 million loan at Bank of California.

He calls and he's like, hey, yeah, this is so-and-so from Bank of Cal. Just want to make sure that collateral account's all good. And they're like, what are you talking about? Mary Carol doesn't have. And can you imagine that moment for him? That's crazy. Oh my God. That's insane. Yeah. It's truly insane. Hey, I'm Mike Berenholz. On my new show, Funny You Ask, Trivia starts the conversation, and then things immediately go off the rails. I ask a question. My guests think they know the answer.

Sometimes they do. More often, they do not. And then the conversation takes a turn. One trivia question turns into stories about career highs, painful bombs, and behind-the-scenes moments that probably should have remain private. You'll hear confidence, misplaced confidence, bold guesses, wrong answers, quick laughs, and the slow realization that maybe this was a bad idea to say out loud. If you like smart comedy, sharp conversations, and trivia that exists purely to melt people's brains, this is Funny You Ask with me, Ike Barrenholtz. Follow Funny You Ask with Ike Barronholtz on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Poppity brings you pop culture like you've never

heard it before. Because let's be real. You don't just want the tea. You want it served with fries on the side. I'm Christy Cook from Spilsesh. And I'm Sloan Hooks. Together we're diving deep into the drama, the nostalgia, and the headlines everyone's talking about. Each week, we're breaking down celebrity drama, viral trends, and Hollywood's most talked about moments. Plus, in our gossip on the go segment, we will sit down with your favorite influencers and reality stars over their go-to meals because the best stories, they always come with extra sauce. We're bringing you the debates, the drama, and the nostalgia you really care about. It's more than a podcast. It's a pop culture community. This is poppity. So, Jamie, one of the hallmarks of many cults is information control.

So in Robert J. Lifton's framework, he describes this as an organizational say. It can look like siloing information or creating this like need to know access of information. And it creates a hierarchy where information only flows in one direction and the access to the knowledge becomes a form of power. So based on your reporting and like talking to people, did you see any evidence of this at Bellum? I did. Mary Carroll, like we had talked about earlier, you know, one of the biggest lies that she would tell people for decades is that she's an heiress.

from this wealthy McDonnell Douglas family. But it's funny because she wouldn't like go to work and shout it from the mountaintops. Nobody was really allowed to talk about it out in the open. But it was gossip at the water cooler because Mary Carol would tell someone. But it's like, don't, don't talk about this too much. I don't really want this to be talked about too much. And then she might mention it to another person because the thing about Mary Carol, she can't help herself.

She wants to brag. She was somebody who cared very much about appearing wealthy and looking like she was a very substantial individual. She loved to flex on that. But she controlled it. And she even with her second husband, Thomas Carroll, he's the father of her two twin sons, she had told him for years. Yes, my family is very wealthy. I'm an heir to the McDonnell Douglas fortune. But she's like, but don't talk about it with my family. Don't talk about it with my dad or my mom. You know, they're really private about it. But it's like at a certain point, Thomas Carroll did in fact go to her dad and be like, so this whole McDonald Douglas. Wow, this is crazy. And he's like, what? I was a grocery store owner.

And there was also this other lie that a few people knew about her, but it was a lie. It was partially true-ish, but mostly a lie. So it was widely known in Bellum that Mary Carol had a younger sister named Holly, who was actually her best friend in life. Mary Carol, I believe, was 14, Holly was a special needs child. And she died when she was only 11 years old. And it was, you know, the sociopath, probably that Mary Carol is. It broke her heart and it was devastating for her, as you can imagine. She lost her. very best friend and her sister. But she told people for years, my little sister Holly, was kidnapped, held for ransom, and murdered by her kidnappers. And what does that do? That makes Mary Carol and her

family seem wealthy. Because nobody's going to do that to my child because I'm not that wealthy. So they, you know what I mean? It's like a kidnap hold for ransom. You do that to the most wealthy, the most elite families. What really happened, and I didn't know this until I dove into it and investigated her story for the podcast was that Holly did die. at the age of 11, but it wasn't because she was murdered or kidnapped. She was playing in the backyard with a neighborhood boy who was a little older than her, but he was also special needs. Somehow he got his hands on a hunting knife and stabbed Holly and she died on the way to the hospital, tragically. That's very traumatic. Right. So it was horrible. It was a homicide, but it wasn't a

kidnap. It wasn't a hold for ransom. And the young boy was also special needs, so I don't know how nefarious or not nefarious it was. Like, I just don't know enough. But she did die by homicide in a very tragic way. But Mary Carol used that, and that was just another piece of her grift to make it sound like, oh, wow. If her sister was held for ransom, like, that means that family's rich. Yeah. So it's pretty disgusting when you think about it to really use such a tragic event of your little sister as a lie to gain money from people that doesn't belong to you, you know. Yeah.

But you hit the nail on the head because that is like such peak sociopathic behavior. you've got to create the world. You've got to maintain the lie. And to take a personal tragedy and then manipulate it to benefit you as much as possible. It makes me think one of the biggest themes in the story is obviously accountability. After researching Bellum and speaking with all the employees, what does meaningful accountability look like, do you think? Beyond the legal consequences, obviously, what would justice for the people affected actually look like? You know, literally,

talking to so many of them. It's, I don't want to say as simple as, but it's as simple as a perp walk. They want to see that girl, Mary Carol McDonnell in an orange jumpsuit. They want to see her humiliated. They want to see her face those charges and own up to everything in court and be held accountable and never see the light a day again because they're like, she is very, very dangerous in a financial way. I mean, and people always kind of minimize it. They're like, oh, it's just money and this and that. But she really did wreck a lot of lives, including her twin sons. I mean, she wrecked their lives financially and embarrassed the crap out of them. And I know that's not equal to murder. But people want her to face the charges. They want her to come back to the states, go to court, look like shit, and be sentenced to a substantial number of years in prison. They absolutely want their money back. But I'm sure they're all smart enough to know by now. Like Bellum's a house of cards that folded. How much money of that 15 million is left that Mary Carol took. And I happen to know, and I put this in the podcast, before Mary Carol skipped town, after she took the $15 million from the bank,

she took about $5.5 million, believe it or not, and paid off one of her other debtors that was breathing down her neck and filing a lawsuit against her. And she did that because she knew if she didn't make that payment, they were coming after her hard and her grip might be up.

So she was smart enough to know, I've got to give up this $5.5 million to get them off my neck. Then I'll just deal with Bank of California and all the other shit. So when she went on the run, she had, let's just call it $9 million, if she got about $14.6,000,

something million. That's how much she got from the line of credit bank of California. Then she paid back 5.5. So she had a few million in her pocket when she went to Dubai, but Dubai is an expensive place. I don't know how much of that money is left, but I'm sure they would all like to be made whole. And I just don't know how possible that is at this point. Jamie, I want to kind of back up a little bit because I had no idea about the Holly story. So you dropped some major lore about Mary's background. Do you know anything about her lawyer that mysteriously passed away? Girls, this is a whole other podcast. I mean, that was probably the most wild. He's the most interesting character of all of this. I will tell you that. So this guy, Barry Rothman,

well-known entertainment lawyer, older guy, worked in the LA area, like I told you, he represented all these celebrities in the past. So we thought, like, okay, he's totally legit. He had referred numerous clients to my very close colleague before at previous banks and at Bank of California. So he was a regular referral source. So when he referred this wealthy heiress, Mary Carroll, it was no different. It was like, oh, it's coming from Barry Rothman. It's got to be legit, right? So then after the FBI comes in and starts investigating and poking around like, how did 15 million leave this bank, Barry Rothman drops dead out of nowhere. And the story was going around the bank, the first time we heard that he dropped dead during the investigation was that he went to the dentist and

drop dead unexpectedly in the dental chair. So my true crime brain was like, oh shit, Mary Carol offed him, either because she doesn't want to share the money with him because it's very clear that, in my very strong opinion, he helped her get that money. He played a very crucial role in helping provide false documents to the bank and all that stuff. Or he knows too much and she doesn't want to get caught so she had him killed. Like I truly, this is where my mind was going. I found out later that he did go to the dentist that day, but he went home and had some sort of like heart attack. And Per his death certificate, he was not a healthy guy. So it was nothing nefarious. It was just his time. But he died before he could even be investigated. I have no doubt that he'd be facing charges on this

just like Mary Carroll. But I still thought when I left the bank that he was totally legit. Like, I just had no clue. I dove into him. He is as much of a dirtbag scammer, schemer, fraudster, abuser as Mary Carol McDonald, if not worse. Dude had been abusing employees. for years, not paying employees, not paying his child support, had his Rolls Royce repode because he didn't pay his child support or alimony. He had all these shell accounts in Panama. And that's why it's like him and Mary Carroll were two scummy peas in a pod. The day they met, it was just doom for everybody who came in their path because both of them were greedy people. And the most interesting thing I found out when I investigated Barry Rothman as part of this case was that he was the first lawyer

to bring a child sex abuse case against Michael Jackson. Whoa. Yes, there's this boy named Jordy who had outcried to his father saying, hey, Michael Jackson did these things to me. His father was a close friend of Barry Rothman. Barrett Rothman is a big lawyer. So the father, instead of going to law enforcement saying, hey, Michael Jackson did these things allegedly to my son, let's investigate this,

Jordy's father goes to his scamy, dushy friend, Barry Rothman, a big lawyer. and says, hey, what do we do about this? And Barry Rothman's basically like, I got you, dude. Don't go to the cops. We're going to get some money out of Michael Jackson. So they literally tried to extort $20 million out of Michael Jackson. And that's the thing is like, this is how you know that Jordy's dad and Barry Rothman are dirtbags. You have a child who's outcry about potential sexual abuse. You need to go to authorities if you truly cared about that child's well-being, but neither one of them did that. And how that all ended was Barry Rothman didn't get a dime. But ultimately, Michael Jackson's insurance company did do a big payout. I want to say it was 15 to 20 million. Most that money went

to Jordy and a portion of it went to his mom and dad. His father later in his apartment died by suicide because Jordy's father became the most hated man in America. That's what people would call him because he eventually got outed for being a greedy dude who didn't have his child's best interest. He instead, along with Barry Rothman, tried to extort money for Michael Jackson instead of doing the right thing. And I'm not here to say whether Michael Jackson did it or not. Everybody can have their opinions, and I have a strong opinion on it, but as a parent, that's not the right thing to do. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Go to the cops first. Yeah. Yeah. So Barry Rothman was a bad dude. That's wild. Another really funny tidbit about Barry Rothman, the dude was addicted to tanning booths.

I mean, he was orange. They used to call him a leprechaun. And if you look up pictures, he has this white hair, bright orange skin, because in his old age, and the dude's not a looker. Okay, I'll just tell you that. I don't know why he bothered trying to get a tan. It didn't help, but he was so vain. Iman's looking him up right now. I just looked him up. It's true. He's got a leather face. He had a tanning booth in his house. I swear, I'm like, dude, you can't make this up. He's like in his 70s or something. It's like, what are you doing? You're in your 70s. He was also really afraid of pain. So I was like, dude was a pussy because he would, we can talk trash about these people, they're deplorable human beings. So I do not feel guilt, right, over using these horrible

terms. But he's also dead. He can't come first. Thank you. And he was awful. Like, confirmed awful. He was so afraid of pain that he would go in for like routine dental work and be like, put me under. I can't do it. He would bring in his own anesthesiologist to put his ass under to get like, I mean, I'm exaggerating, but to get like a little dental cleaning. You know, he's like, all right, put me under. What the hell? Okay. Ready the fluoride and the needle. That's why. Okay. This is interesting to me because it's confirmed maybe, allegedly, that Mary Carol is in Dubai. Did you see a death certificate, Jamie, for Mr. Sir? I sure did. Because I was like, let me just let me make sure did he fake his own death because I listen.

McAbelly. He was like, I'm not going to jail, bitch. No, no, no. Sounds like a cult research trip to Dubai. Girls, you have. have no idea. Go. It would be so fun. Girls trip. My final question for you, Jamie, is one thing we explore all the time within cult-like structures is the sunk cost effect. And that investment isn't always financial. People always tend to think about it as just money, but it can be your time, your identity, your relationships, or your belief that all of this has to mean something. And I'm a podcaster, but I'm also reality TV producer. And sometimes, first of all, just thinking about this, I've been trying to talk to so many different people, but I feel like so many people are afraid

to come out and actually speak about all the nefarious things that Mary Carol has done. But to think about being a freelancer and you're investing all your time in producing and, you know, editing and all these things, it makes me so sad that these people will never, never see any type of like compensation from their work. And so from your reporting, what do you think kept the people at Bellum long after they started recognizing these red flags? Well, I think part of it is that if somebody owes you $50,000, like $50,000 is a lot of money to the average everyday person. And just the thought that you might get it back if you stay, I think that's part of what keeps you there. And Mary Carroll, of course, was like feeding all these lines of bullshit. And people want to

hold on to hope that like, okay, maybe part of it's true. Maybe she will. If I put enough pressure on her, if she will have a little bit of a heart and give me part of my money next month. Let me just hold on. I think that that truly was, it's as simple as that is like, let me stay here. Because as soon as they cut ties, what are the chances of them getting their money back? You know, it's almost essentially nil. It's like if they're out of her hair, she doesn't have to think about them anymore. So I think That's the biggest reason that people would stay. It's like, oh, I might get my money. I might if I stay and I'm really nice to her and compliment her fake pearls. I don't know. Enjoy her pie. That's right. And I will say, you want to know the fun. Let me tell you the funniest thing. Since we put out the podcast, most questions that I get are about the damn pie. Everybody wants to know. And do you know what I found out? Mary Carroll had told us and everybody that she was this very talented baker. And I have heard that she was pretty decent. baker, okay? But not like what she said. So we always believed, and everybody always believed that any time she showed up with pies, and this wasn't the first time, they were baked in her mansion,

in her oven with her hands. I got a tip from a lady, and it is super legit, and she told me all these things. She says, I made those pies. Mary Carol never made a pie a day in her life. I made those pies, but she's like, she told you that she made them, and it's definitely part of her grift. And so it's like, You can't even be honest about the fact that you didn't make the damn pies. Oh my God. Plot twist. They're from traitor Joe. I was about to say, this bitch went to Walmart.

She bought Patty's pies. And she was like, let me tell everybody that I'm this excellent baker. That is insane. They were so good. So I complimented the lady who reached out. I said, well, damn, you make a good pie. And I'm not even a pie person. The pie that launched a thousand chips.

Oh my God. Okay. I think this is the perfect transition to our game portion of this episode. I love a game. Yes. Okay. So we're going to play a game called Colty or Holly Weird because sometimes in our industry, those two things are a little hard to tell apart.

Okay. Love it. So basically, Iman and I are just going to give you different prompts and you tell us if it sounds culty or if it's just Holly Weird. Okay. Okay. So first things first, you'll get paid once the deal closes. Holly Weird.

Okay. Craft services being the best part of your day. Oh, my God. Holly Weird. My husband used to work in craft services. That's hilarious. First of all, I don't care what show I'm on. The craft services will always be the best part of my day.

It hits. It hits. Okay, a director's chair being treated like a throne. I mean, both, but Holly Weird, for sure, Holly Weird. Yeah. I don't know. For me, I agree that it's both, but it's a little culty because sometimes people are like, oh, you can't go within like five feet of this chair, like don't even breathe near the chair.

Don't look at the chair. And that kind of, that tiptoes to me. Colt leader. Yeah. Very cult leader. Agree. Very much so. Yeah.

Curious about this one. everyone here is family. Oh, God, Colty. God, that is just, like, it's just so cringy. No, that is so Colty. If anybody ever says that to you, run. Please run.

And I'm also like, I don't like some of my family members. You don't want me to treat you like family. Yeah. Like, please. Colty or corporate America? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

Working 12-hour plus days like, like it's just expected. Both, Colty and Holly Weird. Yeah. They've got you like limited breaks, working the shit out of you for not enough pay. Yeah, both. Yeah. And then imagine not getting paid. Girl, I would be ready to fight, Mary Carol. No. 100%. I would throw hands with that lady. In fact, I've had dreams about throwing hands with her. I don't promote violence, but come on. Sometimes violence is on the table. You give what is earned. Yes, absolutely. What about last minute schedule changes that derail your entire life. Oh, that's holly weird. Someone yelling, copy way, way too intensely. Holly weird. That's a producer. Everyone venting, but no one actually

ever leaving. Both, but it is very colty. It is very culty. But it's also not coltie to a certain extent because like a lot of times you're not allowed to vent in a cult. Everybody has to, that cult leader's got you staying real quiet and everybody's got to pretend and fall on over this colt leader and oh, he's just the best. And when really you're just like, ooh, this guy's an asshole, but I can't say anything because then I'll get excommunicated or punished or whatever. Yep. And then my final one is everyone bragging about how little sleep they got. Both. I would say both. I mean, I definitely think there's a lack of sleep on. I've never been on a movie set, but I can imagine like there's just, you know, lack of sleep in Hollywood, Holly weird.

And in a cult, it's lack of sleep because you're busy servicing the cult leader. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Jamie, thank you so much for joining us today. If people want to follow your cult, where can they find you? Yes. Come join my cult.

And also, thank you, Chelsea, Inamon. It was so great to meet you. I appreciate you having me. Everybody can follow me on my social media channels. I'm on Instagram, TikTok, sometimes on YouTube at Jamie on air. That's J-A-M-I on air. My podcast, you can follow them wherever podcasts are available. I have Murderish, a True Crime podcast, Dirty Money Moves, Women and White Collar Crime.

Season one is fully dedicated to this wild Mary Carol McDonald's story. And my newest podcast is Bravo's Most Wanted, and I co-host it with my good friend Katie Janella. And that is all about reality TV. I live. Okay, Eamon, that was crazy. I think initially, like at the beginning of the episode, we were. were just scratching the surface with the cultiness of Bellum Entertainment. But I think Jamie coming on helped contextualize all the cultiness within Bellum and with Mary Carol

McDonald. I think what struck me the most about her reporting is that Bellum doesn't just exist within like this vacuum. I think that so many of the dynamics that we talked about today was about like extreme loyalty and this like blurred personal and professional boundaries that aren't unique to one company, but in many ways it's normalized in a lot of like entertainment organizations. So I don't know. I really appreciated that interview. You know, it's interesting. I almost wasn't overly shocked by the extent to which she exposed Mary Carol's scams, maybe because I'd previously done research into it,

or because I've come to expect this level of corruption, not only from Hollywood, but the entertainment industry as a whole, what really got me about our interview was the extent to which Mary Carroll mixed world building and her personal lore into the manipulation. I could not believe the ways in which she transformed that story about the death of her younger sister in order to hustle people. I could not believe the fact that she was buying store-bought pies and pretending she baked them in order to convince people that she was the granny next door. These are the details that had my jaw on the floor from start to finish. So I know this is crazy, controversial, but listen, I'm just go ahead and say it. Cult leader, yes, but like extremely iconic. Extremely iconic.

Because I'm like, damn, you got all these people to believe you? Girl, I don't know. That's even charismatic leader. I don't care what y'all say. It's so funny that you say that my second novel, the most famous girl in the world, was about an hei scammers and was in many ways inspired by the Anna Delvey story. And a big theme of the book and a larger question was, why do people that do such bad things make the general public feel so good? And why are we drawn to people who are overtly proud of their own crimes and their own corruption? And I think America loves a scandal and America loves like a diva who owns her women's wrongs.

And in many ways, this did really feel like Granny Delvey. Granny Davy! And it's just funny, it's funny to think about like in the end of the day, like Mary Carol's sort of like living it up in Dubai. Like she's on that indoor ski slope, riding it again and again and again. And I think it speaks to a larger systemic issue in American society and pop culture that we in so many ways, like, revere and are attracted to these people who are very outwardly, you know, morally net. But as long as they're being their most authentic selves, we are more drawn to authenticity, even if it isn't necessarily like following a moral paradigm than we are. people who are doing all the right things but seem fake or fraudulent. So it's interesting to think about. And that's on Donald Trump. That's on the Tiger King. That's on all the people we've given

political seats and reality TV shows too. Facts. Okay. So culties, you know what time it is. We've got to deliver our verdict. Out of our three cult categories, live your life. Watch your back or get the fuck out. Iman, what would you say Bellum Entertainment falls under? So as nice as I'm sure Dubai is this time of year, I'm not trying to live my life on the run. So I actually think that this cult falls firmly in a get the fuck out. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I could not agree more. It makes me really sad listening to the stories of the people who were not the banks, fuck the banks, but I care about the actual. freelancers who this affected. Because around this time, in 2018, a lot of people don't really realize that there were several strikes that were happening. And it was a very, very, very hard time for freelancers. So I would almost assume that these people stayed committed because of the promise. And just like a lot of cult light structures, we see that. A lot of people, there is so much that they invested into these spaces that is really, really, really,

hard for them to leave and to hear stories about people losing their homes or having to move out of their respective cities because they believed in this woman's promise so, so much. It makes me sad. It makes me sad. And it makes me say, like, no, she needs to go to jail. Okay. Lock them up. She needs to be in someone's jail. And they need to be paid. And where are the protections in place for freelance creatives? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You. hit the nail on the head. I mean, it's been an ongoing thing for decades because a lot of people don't know this, but there are not unions for unscripted producers. So honestly, we are subjected to less than desirable working conditions on top of having to just pray and hope as a freelancer

that you will be paid on time so that you can be able to like sustain a life. And it sucks. It really does. Absolutely. It makes me think how long do you have to establish yourself and work in the industry to be able to advocate for yourself on sets like these and not be taken advantage by predatory practices. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, Coltis, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening.

Join us for our new cult next week. And in the meantime, stay Colty, but not too, Colty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the pod cabin. This episode was hosted by Chelsea Charles. and Amon Haririakia. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical O overthinking, notes on Modern Irrationality, and Wordslet, a Feminist Guide, to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our Network Studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.