Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Dog People

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

This week, Amanda and Chelsea enter The Cult of Dog People, from pup birthday parties and breed evangelists to raw-feeding wars, “adopt don’t shop” morality, and the steadfast conviction that your dog can detect bad vibes better than you can. How did man’s best friend become a personality trait and a reason to feel morally superior to cat owners? We (lovingly) poke fun at the dog people culture before taking a much darker turn with our anonymous listener who, for the first time publicly, shares her experience working inside what she now describes as a dog-training cult. And this cult had everything: an isolated property, a charismatic guru, secretive and abusive training methods, rigid scripts, and the belief that hurting dogs could be justified because they were “saving lives.” Content Warning: Cruelty to animals. Please take care while listening. Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  Pre-order Iman's new book, Once in a Timeline, here! Your pre-order helps make more books possible! Sounds Like A Cult is coming to you LIVE from The Elysian in LA on October 15th! Get tickets at soundslikeacult.com! Thank you to our sponsors! Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to https://Quince.com/slac  To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to https://MintMobile.com/slac Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Book hot fairs and vacation packages today. Nice travel. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of books including cultish, the language of fanaticism. And I'm your co-host, Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer, and a lifelong student of pop

Culture Sociology. Every week on this show, we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that puts the cult in culture, from sleepaway camp to in-cells to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watcher back, or a get the fuck out. Because the thing is, culty influence falls along a spectrum in 26, And look, this word cult can mean a lot of things.

It's subjective and context dependent, sometimes sensational, other times super useful, and other times just cheeky and fun. This show, as those who've been listening for a while know all too well, is about analyzing the ways that cultishness show up in everyday life, including in unexpected places, and to examine the ways in which we are all susceptible to cult influence. But also compare how not all cults these days are created equal. And if you can handle it, to have a bit of a laugh.

along the way. Coltys, today, we're diving into a movement built on the fantasy of unconditional love and loyal companionship, a lifestyle adored for its promise of emotional fulfillment. You've seen these people everywhere. Dog parks at sunrise and cafes with a leash wrapped around their wrists on Instagram, throwing birthday parties complete with cupcakes and themed decor, preaching loyalty and companionship. as the path to a better life. Today, we're talking about the cult of dog people.

Amanda, listen, I know y'all hear Amanda's excitement. She is living. Well, I'm laughing my way to hell because I know that I'm finally going to get canceled today. I have the hottest takes about dog people. I really do. And I'm ready to share them. I just love when we do like super off the beaten path,

rando-ass episodes like this. No one asked for this. Well, actually, no, well, yes. I'm so wrong about that because actually, quite specifically, this is an interview, a listener-style episode that was inspired by a very disturbing email that we got at the top of this year. from today's guest, a listener of Sounds Like a Cult, not only does she listen to Sounds Like a Cult, her therapist listens to Sounds Like a Cult, and she's in therapy because of her trauma due to the cult of dog people, specifically due to the cult of dog training. She was in a full-blown dog training cult where dog people were the prime vulnerable victims, herself included, but also

the people who would send their dogs to this isolated compound to be, as it turned out, fucking abused under the guise of saving their lives. This is so fucked up. You're going to have to stick around for that interview. I guess like content warning because we talk about, I mean, we talk about it in veiled terms. So it's not going to like haunt your nightmares. But we do like touch on dog mistreatment in this episode.

But anyways, Chelsea, what's your relationship to dogs? Oh, shit. Okay. Well, I have to come very clean about something. I subscribe to what you would call relationship-based canine. attachment. Okay. So for my, so for my media training. Come on, media training.

Oh, God. This is what I'm talking about. Dog people are scarier than incels. They're scarier than anti-vaxxers. They're scarier than Rogan Bros. Like, we're so scared right now. I've got to be politically correct because y'all are crazy. I love dogs, but only

when they are closely related to me via close relationships with best friends or people whose house I've been to multiple times or like just a family dog. I'm the type of person if I'm at work, do not whip out a picture of your puppy for me. Well, if you're not a dog person, why would anyone do that? Because that is quintessentially an L.A. thing. It is. It is. Los Angeles is a doggie town.

It is a doggy universe. It is a doggie dog world and it is a dog-eat-human town. It is dogs over people. And I fuck with it. But like it is crazy. Amanda, I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders because it's really hard to act for this long without fully coming clean. But I also want to say one other thing.

So there is a phenomenon that is extremely taboo. I've seen a lot of discourse online about this recently. And I'm just so excited to talk about it here, which is like, I would say, obviously, you know I'm going to connect everything to like the South versus where I live now in the West Coast. But growing up in the South, we had such thing as inside dogs versus outside dogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I know. LA people are like clutching their pearls listening to that. But if you were to say that out loud to a person living on the West Coast, they would lose their

fucking minds. Well, because they're in a cult. No, honestly, I need to come clean as well. Look, you know me, I have a dog. I have loved dogs my whole life. I fuck with dogs. Do I love all dogs? No.

Am I a people person? Yes. Do I love all people? No. Okay. Uh-huh. No. Uh-huh.

But the thing is, like, I grew up the daughter of cat lovers. So when I was a little kid, I thought dogs needed more support and more allies. And I was also, like, in a sort of rebellious way, was like, I'm a fucking dog person. And I was when I was a little kid, I was obsessed with dogs. I was like teeny tiny, obsessed with a large, big, big, big, big, big, big. Dogs, convince my parents to get a golden retriever when I was little, like, love that fucking dog. And then I realized, as I got older, there's dog hegemony in this society. And cats actually are the marginalized house pet.

And cats actually need more allies. So if someone were to ask now, are you more of a cat person or a dog person? I would say a cat person, but that's just my politics. Yes, yes. That's just my feminist politics. Don't ask me to explain. Even though there's a lot of discourse online right now about how if you hate cats, you're a misogynist, no further comments.

But anyways, I love dogs. My dog fiddle is everything. He is the goofiest, sweetest, happiest. I don't even feel like he's my dog. I feel like he's the world's dog. His personality is so sweet. He greets you with a smile and his ass first. Pet me.

Yeah, he does have quite the wiggle. Yeah. He backs up into you. I love that. Some dogs are a little bit too rambunctious for me. He has a soul full of confetti and sunshine. He backs his ass up into you, but he greets you with a smile first, smile first, ass second.

But I'm never going to push fiddle onto a non-dog person. And I'm never going to evangelize why dogs are better than cats. This whole us versus them. Like dogs versus cats, it's fucked up. I have both. I like both equally. And that should be fine. Why are we allowing dog people to have hatred in their hearts?

It's not all dog people, but I don't care for this. And you know what I also don't care for is when dog people are on the street and they greet Every dog, like it's the first dog they've seen in their life, and they freak out and fall to their knees and speak in tongues over this goddamn dog. Like, they love all dogs. They want to prove to the world what a good person they are because they love dogs so much. They love dogs more than anyone else. And I'm like fucking relaxed. Everybody likes dogs.

You seem like an extremist right now. Yes. And I'll take that a step further because you said the streets, but it reminds me, again, my LA people are going to have their panties in a bunch about this, but I don't give a fuck. Have you ever been with like a group of people? I'm only asking this is because this has happened to me more than once. And you would see, obviously, we encounter a lot of houseless people in Los Angeles. A lot of houseless people have pets. The first thing out of a dog lover's mouth.

Damn, I feel sorry for that dog. You raggedy Ann. No. Gross. So now that we've gotten that out of the way, is there anyone left listening? Anyone? Good. Good.

because we just did a lot of like complaining about dog people, which isn't really the thesis of this show. We're trying to figure out if dog people are a live your life, a watcher back, or get the fuck out. So on that note, judgments aside, or really judgments in the room with us, but judgments sort of sitting to the side, what do you think is not the most annoying thing,

but the cultiest thing about dog people? Hold on, give me a second. because now that you framed it that way, everything is culty and annoying about them. So I'm trying to disentangle just annoying from culty. Yes. It is tough. Can I give an example of like culty versus annoying?

I think it's annoying when people say on their hinge profile, like under the question, where will you find me at the party? They put, buy the dog. Yes. Uh-huh. Like you're so special because you love dogs. Whatever. Yeah.

That's annoying, but it's not culty. Colty on Instagram on like a dog video about like someone like you know what my dog eats in a day or whatever even posting that as Colty to begin with but when people get so rageful and almost evangelical about their philosophies of dog training of dog nutrition how dare you let your dog have a finger full of peanut butter similar to like the indoor outdoor thing like how dare you not treat your dog, like it's God's gift to the planet according to me and my philosophy. That type of dog extremism is culty as hell and it's dividing us. It is. It's dividing the humans. Yeah. I would say, I mean, there's a list that I think is culty. I think like the elitism with the breeds,

obviously, that's culty and how people say this breed is better than this one. Or which I have an argument, but the whole shop versus adopt and how people will like demonize you for. for shopping for dogs versus, you know, there's a lot of dogs that are living in these shelters that are on a track to be euthanized. And it's like the moral high ground is to be like, you need to adopt versus shopping. I think that's culty.

I think you should let people do what they want. You know what I'm saying? Oh, 100%. I mean, I'm guilty of this for sure. I shamed the shit out of my parents. I have a rescue dog. Hello. I'm a good person.

No, but I shame my parents so hard because they bought their dogs and they have these like perfect hypoallergenic little sweetie pie fluff ball like living cupcake type dogs. But speaking a cult, my dad who has all this trauma from a childhood spent in poverty in cults and like never knew a day of parental love in his life, he is healing his inner child with these like perfect precious little white dogs. Like I swear to God when my parents' dogs give my 70 year old dad a little kiss attack and he gives you. and he has this like unconditional love that makes him feel like a little kid again. It's all special. I'm just like, you know what? Fuck it. Whatever. It's fine. Not to say that he couldn't find that type of love from a shelter dog. And look, you will never find me buying a dog. I will be adopting my whole life long.

Yeah. But that's me and I can handle that. Yes. But my dad needs a teddy bear because my dad is fucked up in the head. I just managed to insult him in so many ways. I love that man. He's both fucked up and unethical. And I love him so much. What a good guy. He's a good guy. Duality. Duality. Oh, can I say one more thing? Yeah. You said the elitism around breeds. I think it is so fucking weird when people are obsessed with the like most imbred breeds of dogs, like the smushy face ugly cute dogs and they go to like pug fest and like Frenchy fest. I'm like that dog can't breathe. His head is bigger than his body. He can't even walk. That dog can't walk. And And you know what we didn't reference the dogs that are half human half dog, the freaky-ass golden doodles.

Fuck them. Oh, Jesus. Oh, God. I can't. I can't. You're a grown adult. Don't say doodle to me. Don't say doodle.

Don't say doodle. You're a grown-ass adult. Do not say doodle. Oh, this reminds me. How culty is this? In the pandemic, Casey and I went to eat in an outdoor restaurant. And this influencer type showed up with her dog, Doodle, dressed to the nines. This dog was decked the fuck out.

And the dog came up to me and my husband Casey for pets. And we pet the dog. And the owner was like, oh my God, no, no, no, germs. Like, don't touch the dog. And we were like, oh, sorry. This dog came up to us for pets. We pet it. Sorry.

It was a human reflex. And the woman goes, don't don't pet the dog. But you can follow him on Instagram. The way that this dog was so famous on Instagram, she like gave his at. We looked him up. We were like, oh, okay. This dog is your bag. I'm sorry that I am dumbfounded right now.

Where were you? What city? Well, where do you think? We were on the east side of Los Angeles. We're shit like that happens day in and day out. I just have to ask the obvious questions. And you bring up another good point. And I know, I know we're bashing these people.

But the last thing I will say, you said germs, it reminds me of the people who put the fucking booties on the damn dog. Right. Their ancestors are wolves. We used to be a proper country. Wait, can I talk about this? I am 100% want to agree with you. But I think this is the thing with the booties

because we tried booties on fiddle because he's an older dog with hip dysplasia and he couldn't walk on the hardwood floor. Okay, fine. But you're right. It's a problem. The problem, though, is not the booties. The problem is the humans. And why don't we live on dirt patches anymore?

The problem is technology and colonialism. You're right. And domestication. We've domesticated ourselves too far. If Fiddell and I lived outside, he wouldn't need a booty a day in his life. No, but they didn't work. Why? Because they're disgusting. And people are like, no outdoor clothes on the bed, but the dog is like peeing on the bed and it's fine.

He's doing everything. It's doing everything. It's an epidemic of ill logic. I can't. Speaking of wolves. Speaking of the origin story, we want to take it back because we always give culty history on sounds like a cult. And we want to understand how dog people got this way. And in order to do that, I think we do need to understand the,

domestication of dogs. So actually, nobody fully agrees on when humans stopped simply tolerating the nearby wolves who wanted to like snack on whatever stuff they had cooking over the fire and started emotionally attaching to them. No one knows for sure, but according to an article from the Natural History Museum entitled Wolves to Woofs, the story of our oldest companions, anthropologists believe early wolves likely began lingering around human campsites

somewhere between 15,000 and 30,000 years ago, okay? It's giving hunter-gatherer period. They would feed off human scraps and then as these wolves continued loitering, the humans were like oh wait, we can vibe with you. Y'all can help us hunt.

You can help us protect. You can help us track stuff and eventually you can hang. Companionship. Man's best friend. So basically, thousands of years of humans looking at these furry scavengers with sharp teeth and deciding, you know what, you live here now, led us to the domestication of the dog. But what's fascinating is that dog people, as we understand them today, are relatively new. Historically, dogs had jobs. They hunted, they heard it, they guarded livestock, they pulled sled, they existed more like co-workers than children, but the modern

version of dog people really emerges alongside what industrialization, suburbanization, and, yep, loneliness. As humans moved away from communal living, had fewer children, and later in life worked longer hours and became increasingly isolated from extended family structures. Dogs transformed from utility animals into emotional infrastructure. So that's the lore. That's a little anthropology for the pod. Live for it. So I want to talk a little bit about some of the rituals and behaviors that are associated with these beloved dog people. Okay. So one of the most fascinating parts of modern dog culture is that training a dog is no longer just about teaching an animal how to sit, stay.

It's become an identity marker. A way for people to signal what type of person they are, a little on what we talked about earlier, what values they hold and what side they belong to. within the dog culture itself. Because once you enter these spaces, you quickly realize that it's a very us versus them dynamic embedded into nearly every corner of modern dog ownership. There are even ongoing arguments between good owners and problematic owners.

And even entire communities formed around specific training philosophies. Some of those ongoing arguments between the good owners versus quote unquote, problematic owners are adopt don't shop people versus ethical breeders. Positive reinforcement trainers versus balanced trainers. Crate trainers versus anti-crate training people. Raw feeders versus kibble feeders and off-leash freedom people versus leash law people.

Don't get me started. Sometimes the dog people with these training philosophies are more intense than the parenting cults, especially among millennials. Like the childless millennial, intense culty dog owner is such a scary archetype. And here's the thing. For me, where it gets culty is like, do whatever the fuck you want with your dog. It's not a human at the end of the day. I'm sorry.

And I believe that we're all in the same circle of empathy. I believe dogs, there are babies. We domesticated them, not the other way around. We, well, I do feel like my dog babies me a little bit, but that's a separate story. But we should spoil them and baby them. And also, like, honor their purpose and what they were bred to do. If it's a working dog, we should exercise them and all the things. But at the same time, it's like you can be a good dog owner and just keep it to yourself.

I mean, of course, if you see dogs being abused, highlight that and just wait until you listen to what's happening at the end of this episode from our guest's cult story. But like when it comes to these nuanced discussions of like the off leash versus the on leash and the raw food versus the kibble food, it's giving like breastfeeding versus formula feeding. It's like everyone's doing their best. Come on. How much privilege do you have that like the biggest argument you're having in your life is over what sweater your dog should or should not be wearing in the wintertime? Please. God. I've never been so passionate.

We're out here talking about Trump. I'm like, yeah, what can you do? But the dog people, though. I'm joking. Jesus. I wanted to give some examples of some of the different types of teaching philosophies when it comes to dog training. So the first one is positive reinforcement only. The movement that's probably the most dominant ideology

and modern urban dog culture. The core belief is that dogs learn best through rewards, trust, and emotional safety rather than punishment or fear. So these owners would reject shot callers, lease corrections, alpha roles, yelling, and dominance-based methods. I subscribe to this. I'm also like this with men. You know, when like a man does something good,

I'm like, that's so good. That's a good, good boy. Have a treat. No, I'm actually really mean to men. I was about to say, I'm, I, I, I, I, I take it back. I take it completely back. I am such a bully. If I could put every man in a shot collar, I would.

Buzz, buzz, goodbye. Never you mind. Never mind. I was about to say, I thoroughly subscribe to dominance-based methods. Anyway. No, dominance-based methods with men. Never mind. Would you be a good fit, Dom?

Absolutely. I know you would, but I really would, I know that I would be. be a good fendom, but I would specialize in genital humiliation. I would live. I would live, you know, in another life, in another life, you know. For sure. Oh, or like, it could be a second career, you know, or a third career, actually, multi-hyphenate. For me, I'm more into like verbally abusing men. Just like, okay, jumping back into some of those teaching philosophies. The second one is called the Alpha Dominance Camp. So on the opposite side, our trainers who believe dogs require hierarchy, structure, correction, and leadership because dogs are pack animals. And this worldview

exploded in popularity during the early 2000s through TV trainers and viral media. So under this philosophy, dogs learn how to be pack leaders. They learn dominance energy, calm assertiveness, controlling the space and establishing authority. And then the last philosophy I want to talk about is the rescue dog framework, which is another modern ideology, and it centers around the belief that behavioral issues are rooted primarily in trauma, anxiety, and misunderstood emotional needs. Some people treat these dogs mostly like therapy patients navigating PTSD. And while there's truth in behavioral science, supporting stress response in animals,

critics argue that this framework can sometimes excuse dangerous behavior, avoid accountability, overhumanized dogs, and unintentionally reinforced anxiety. I can see that. The overhumanizing of the dogs is, I think, another place where this gets culty for me. And speaking of that, we want to talk a little bit more about dogs in pop culture. Because a great example of humanizing dogs is turning them into fucking influencers, like that lady I ran into at the L.A. restaurant. this whole viral dog influencer culture where dogs become celebrities and they earn their humans

hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars. And with that, I always think about, like, what happens with the dog dies? Like, you've, like, monetized this being that only lives for 12 years. It's just a weird career path. Oh my God, that's such a good point because, yeah, like, the dog dies. Do you keep their page and then buy a new dog and then just transition their page? Exactly. And you know what else gets me? And this is like on the anthropomorphizing stuff. When dog owners pretend that their dog is going to live forever and like make their dog's death all about them. And don't even try me. I have been through so much tragic, untimely pet death. And it is truly such an underrated pain. It's one of the hardest things you can ever go through. But like especially if you rescue a dog, like they're already living on borrowed time. Like our job is to give them a beautiful life. And yes, like enjoy their company. But like when people just delirons lude themselves into thinking that the dog is going to live forever and then they don't prepare themselves. I'm not talking about my parents or anything like that. Another way that people humanized dogs in a way that I find culty and disturbing is the whole dog show thing. Fucking dog shows. It is a

dog version of royal debutante culture where people spend years proving their freaking terrier comes from superior genetics. What? Do you watch the dog show though? I have seen the dog show. I have. It's cool, but it's creepy. I don't like it. that much. I'm gonna be honest. The tricks aren't that cool. They're not that cool. I'm sorry. Just let dogs be dogs. It's like toddlers and tiaras out there. Let them live. Let them live. I was kind of roasting the like pug lovers and whatever. There are like these breed specific clubs, these like tiny internet nations where people develop entire personalities around owning one specific breed of dog. In particular, the Belgian Malinois people online, often.

and act like they belong to an elite survivalist society because the breed itself is extremely intelligent and commonly used in military and police work, but the fandom surrounding them has become its own subculture with this vibe that basically says like, this dog is superior.

This is not a dog for civilians. This dog is transcendent, which is culty, I don't know, probably in a live your life way maybe, but what's definitely not live your life level is the fake dog rescue videos. Have you heard of this? I have not. Okay, so I went down a bit of a rabbit hole. It's so fucked up and sad. But basically, dog people on

social media have reported this massive uptick and are actively fighting against these sort of stage, phony rescue videos, mostly they live on Facebook. Are we surprised? Where people will intentionally abuse little animals and film it to gain donations or add revenue. One example is the Asher House investigations of 2020. in which allegations allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly circulated online regarding Lee Asher in the Asher House. This fake dog rescue allegedly with users on social media discussing investigations into these rescue operations, including claims of poor conditions and questionable medical care for dogs.

Like, it's a whole disturbing one. Oh, my God. Dog rescue scams and fake, yeah, it's the worst. It's the worst. Which is, like, definitely like our charity scams episode. Yes. So true. Pulling at the heartstrings.

It is. It is. They're scams and cults built on exploiting people's heartstrings. Well, I think that actually transitions pretty perfectly into our guest conversation. Because y'all, our guest today is a sounds like a cult listener. She wrote into us saying some really, really nice things about the show. And saying that basically our show helped her put her experience as a dog trainer, where she worked for 10 years in an extremely culty, abusive,

and manipulative environment into perspective. We got to talk about her experience in this dog people dog trainer cult. She said it was the first time she'd ever shared her story publicly. So she was a little nervous and didn't want to reveal too many identifying details of these culty people who seem pretty scary. But yeah, that's our interview today. Culties, after the break, we'll hear from our guests who was requested to stay anonymous. So stick around. Dustin from Sacred Symbols here, you know when you're in the middle of a heavy recording session,

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And I'm Taliesin Jaffe. Before we became the internet people we are today, we spent our childhoods as working actors, appearing in shows like growing pains and films like Mr. Mom. And our podcast, Weird Kids, we're diving deep into our unique upbringings, our friendship with each other, and all the delightfully odd interests

we still carry with us today. In each episode, we get to share stories of our youth, the things that bring us joy, the problems that we face, and occasionally the friends we've collected along the way. If you're a misfit, an outcast, or just a weirdo who loves all things nostalgic and unconventional, come take a seat at our table. Each week, we'll be releasing previously members-only episodes on YouTube and all major podcast platforms, with new episodes dropping exclusively and ad-free on beacon.tv.

Welcome to Sounds Like a Colt. Thank you. Hi. Nice to be here. I'm really excited, actually. Could you please introduce yourself to the audience, include a bit of your background, and how you're connected to the cult, dare I say, of dog people? Yeah, so I have been a listener of sounds like a cult for a while now. And a little while back, I sent in an email just sort of briefly explaining my experiences and what I went through when I worked for a family member and their dog training company. Now, I've chosen to be anonymous because I really think that a lot of the things that I have to say are going to upset people. And to be honest, I have kids and a husband and they had absolutely nothing to do with any of this. So I think for their sake, it's best if I stay anonymous.

Yes. So we want to dive into your story. And we also want to figure out how your story kind of fits into the cult of dog people, dog training, the way that Americans in particular relate to dogs. Like, we want to understand if this is sort of this like one-off freaky story. or if it's something that everyday dog owners and dog lovers should be aware of for their own safety and the safety of their pets. But first, could you start out just by sharing how you, by your own admission, got sucked into a dog training cult? So it was about 2011. I was 23 and a really close family member of mine and her husband had just started running this dog training business.

And I personally was going through a really hard time. but they invited me to come work there. It was out in this rural area. So essentially, it was just enough space between us and other houses that people really weren't going to see or hear what was going on there. And it was just a, honestly, it was a dream. I got to work with dogs. I was so excited. Interesting, interesting. You said something just now that made my coltie ears perk up. What did you mean by remote property? So this was a rural area that we lived in. So like the things that were done could be done without anybody really seeing and it became our world. So like me and my friend who moved with me just sort of lived on this property and our job was to work with the dogs that were on the property.

So like the board and trains. And the properties that we lived on were kind of amazing. You were just out in the middle of nowhere in the country and there was just fresh air. And at night you could hear the coyotes. It was so cool. And then the next place we lived out was beautiful. We had like an orchard and we could see the mountains in the background. And now, I mean, I just visited a place close to there.

And I'm like, no, this is hell. Like, I just never want to go back. But thinking back, I mean, it was just a beautiful place to be. I was with people that I loved and trusted. I was doing something that I really loved to do. I did have to work against some very strong instincts telling me this is wrong. But I was stuck there 24-7. That was my thing.

I was there. I didn't really do a whole lot of leaving the property. That was just sort of my life. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. No, this is like, okay. No, dude, this is like a cult cult. And it took me a long time to really come to terms with that. Like, we left because we were being treated poorly. We were still in that cognitive dissonance of like, what we're doing is helping. And like, this is the right way because we did have a cult leader who was very good at convincing us that this was the right way of doing things. And so when we left, we were like, no, they were just bad people. And like, we couldn't live there anymore. But we would kind of laugh and we'd be like, were we in a cult? that was kind of culty. And then I started going to therapy and she's like, yeah, that was a cult. So you mentioned there was a cult leader at this dog training facility. I want to ask you about

that person for sure. But first, can you walk us through how the opportunity to turn your love of dogs into a dream job turned into a culty nightmare? Sure. So how it first started, honestly, I had no direction in my life. I had quit school. I was super depressed. And I had somebody that I was incredibly close to. I thought I was very close to say, hey, you know, come do this with me. And I remember bringing my dog down. I had a puppy. He was so little. I think he was maybe 12 weeks. And I brought him down. And it was sort of right away really disturbing. I mean, the methods that were being used were ones that were taboo. And it was sort of our job to convince owners that this was the right thing. All of the pure positive dog trainers, the ones that use treats and everything, no, they're being too

soft on their dogs. They're letting their dogs roll the house. It was a lot of negative talk about what these other companies were doing versus what we were doing. And that happened pretty much right away. That was a part of the programming. So the person who developed this programming, was that the cult leader of this whole dog training operation? Like, who was this? person and how was he a cult leader exactly? Yeah, the trainer was so charismatic with people and he had just this calm energy around him and he was so easy to listen to because he was convincing and you would see the results. I remember walking outside and seeing him work with this dog and just being amazed at the fact that he didn't even have to say a word. He was just doing like hand signals and

this dog just was looking at him like you are my whole world and it was so calm. I was like, this is so cool. I was like magic. I couldn't even wrap my head around what he was doing. And so I think that was the moment where, I don't know, it was just taken by it. You were converted. I was converted, right? Like, that was the moment where I was like, I need to do this. This is amazing. And I'm pretty sure it was a trip after that that I brought my dog to them. And they kind of showed me a little bit of how things were done. And my dog was very clearly like, no, I don't like this. And they're like, he's just being a dramatic puppy. He's just dramatic. And I listened to them. This was when I first started. Because later on down the line, I saw how other dogs looked at him and other dogs were terrified of him. But this man prided himself on working with aggressive dogs. And that was my foray too. It was like, I was working with dogs that I should not have been working with straight away. I mean, like, really scary.

Like, one of the dogs was there because he flunked out of police canine class because he, like, tore the pants off of a cop. Honestly, metal. You know what this whole thing reminds me of is like the troubled teen industry for dogs. You know, you have a dog giving you a tough time. maybe comes from a traumatic background, you ship them off to a place that you think is good. Really, it's a cult. And there's nothing that the innocent dog can do about it. It's so similar to the Troubled teen industry.

Yeah, and who can't talk back? The dogs can't say anything. The dogs can't say, hey, they did this to me over there. You might see signs. Oh my God, that's such a good point. They can't speak. Should we give this cult leader trainer at the helm a pseudonym just so we can like refer to him throughout? Why don't we just call him Fluffy?

Fluffy. Fluffy. See, I love that. So we're going to call him Fluffy, and I feel like that's just diminutive and demeaning enough. That's amazing. Yep. So if you feel comfortable, can you describe for us some of the methods that were used that you now deem abusive and when it started to feel less like dog training and more like a belief system? Okay, so I definitely can't get into the dirty details, the really heavy stuff. To be honest, I can't even talk about that much in therapy right now. I'm tiptoeing into that. But I will give you kind of an idea. There would be, you call them choke chains. We call them slip chains to try to make them sound less bad. There were prong callers, e-collars, like electronic callers.

And if I'm being totally honest, I am still not 100% against the use of those callers. And that is something that he always told us was, yeah, people are against them because they're used improperly. And then he would go and use them completely improperly and be, I mean, it could be pretty brutal at times. And a lot of it was hush-hush. There were certain things that we did at the property. You were not allowed to do anywhere that could possibly be public. You had to really tone down what you were doing when you were in front of the owners. You were just out at a park.

And you couldn't talk about with anybody. And a big component of that was he would say, people just won't understand. They're going to stay doing this. And they're not going to understand. And they're not going to know. I mean, we are literally saving lives. And to a certain point, a lot of them were coming from rescues that were like, we don't know what to do with this dog.

We're going to have to put him down. So, you know, you're the last ditch effort to get them a home and save. them and that's what we were told. You're doing a good thing. Yeah, I'm hearing so much cult rhetoric here. You know, even the euphemistic language of calling it a slip collar, of shutting down any type of pushbacker questioning by saying those people just won't understand. You're saving lives. That sort of missional aspect. We're contributing to something that's greater than ourselves. Of course, the physical isolation, that like kind of savior complex that you were instilled with as a way to justify things that you knew weren't okay. That's all really manipulative and painful and the fact

that you were encouraged to shut down your instincts to the point that you couldn't even display what was really going on behind closed doors in front of the people who are entrusting you with their best friend, their baby, their doggy, like that is so tough. Can you talk more about Fluffy as a kind of guru figure whose opinions carried the most unquestionable authority. He carried a confidence about him that was hard to argue with. And I think because you're watching abuse, and that's the only word that I can use. It's abuse, full out. And some of it was pretty brutal abuse. But you would see him doing these things and his composure just, I mean, it's hard to argue with that. And he came across as he was so knowledgeable about these things. Turns out he was only

doing it for two or three years before I got in with him. I remember him walking into the office one day and being like, I have so much knowledge. I need to write a book. And I'm like, dude, you've had like 50 clients. Even at that time, I was getting kind of over it and being like, yeah, you guys, no, we need to get out of here. But still being sort of convinced because I was indoctrinated at that time that, well, the methods are fine. I just don't want to like work with these people anymore. It still took a while for me to truly realize, no, like, he's the bad guy. Like, going to be on the news one day, sort of bad guy. Yeah, the other thing that you said that reminded me of so many cults that we've covered

on this show is the fact that you were brought in by a trusted family member. That's why people join multi-level marketing schemes. That's why people get involved with religious cults. It's because, like, the way in is someone who is very close to you. So it can't seem that dangerous. So our next question is, you know, we wanted to ask you a little bit more about the language and about how it was used to justify some of this truly culty behavior. So were there any like phrases or slogans or repeated talking points that started to feel

almost like a doctrine over time? Most of what we did was based on this script that Fluffy used. It was always the same. And part of that script was to heavily emphasize that what we were doing could not possibly be hurting the dog. Fluffy would say that their necks were the toughest, strongest part of the same. of the dog's body. It's where their mama would pick them up as pups and carry them around. And also where she would correct them? Fluffy would also make sure to say that when their mama would correct

the pups, they would let out a little yelp. And now looking back, it almost feels like it was setting us up for how often we'd be hearing dogs yelping when we were administering physical corrections. There's one time I accidentally stepped on my dog's foot and he yelped because I stepped on his foot. And I just immediately reacted and I apologized to my dog, which I think a lot of people would do. And Fluffy like immediately called me out. Told me that I shouldn't be reacting to my dog's pain, that I had just caused him and that I didn't really hurt him and that my dog was just being dramatic. So essentially, any empathy that was shown towards the dogs when they yelped in pain was immediately met with ridiculed by Fluffy. And every collar that we used, choke chains, prong collars, and shot collars, we would cover up with a bandana when we were in pot.

public so that people couldn't really see what we were using. Whoa. Now, Fluffy even had us demonstrate all of the collars on our own wrists or on the client's wrists to show that they don't actually hurt. But when it was placed on the dog, most of the time, it was a sharp, hard correction. Or it would be with an e-collar, an electronic collar that was cranked up too high. Now, another important part of this script was we were not only being taught that we couldn't possibly be hurting the dogs with our methods, but we're actually using true positive reinforcement

and that we were supposed to administer this positive reinforcement at a rate of one to nine. So this means that for every one physical correction that you administer, we were supposed to be praising the dogs nine times. Now, Fluffy made sure to point out that the way that we administer positive reinforcement was superior to other trainers because we used physical affection and we were adamantly against the use of treats. using treats a form of bribery and that calm physical affection would help transfer our energy to the other dog. And to be honest, Fluffy was right there for the dogs that really did enjoy the physical affection and a lot of them did enjoy it. That being said, though, there's plenty of

dogs who are motivated way more with treats, toys, things like that. But with those dogs that didn't like the physical affection, they were essentially being forced into it and forced to accept it. And so we were being basically coerced into believing that we couldn't actually hurt these dogs with these methods. Fluffy would always talk about fight or flight. And when we were working with afraid or aggressive dogs, which honestly was probably most of the time, Fluffy would explain that all aggression stems from fear and that a dog will either flee or fight the thing that scaring them. Now, in our case, they couldn't flee because they were attached to a leash, so they would fight. Fluffy's whole point was you have to get the fight out of the dog. And looking

back at a lot of the things that we did, it was either meant to provoke a fight or flight response, or that was just the inevitable conclusion. And generally, we were told that if we didn't hear a yelp from the dog, it likely wasn't a hard enough correction. And that the heart of the correction, the more praise we would get as trainers. And again, I am not proud of it. any of this. But at the time, I had mastered this like double correction thing, which is essentially just like two sharp yanks, rapid succession, bang, bam. And when I did this and I did it well, according to them, I was heaped praise. They loved it. And honestly, that praise was heaped on me. My cruelty was a good thing, I guess, to them. Wow. So, gosh, this is really troubling to hear.

and indeed incredibly classically culty. There was so much control. And this ends justify the means philosophy of we can control the way that you conduct yourself because we are saving these dogs' lives and doing this incredible thing. Yeah. And another thing that was really culty is they would get you very high. Not like hard drugs, but very much like stoner. A lot of weed involved in this.

I had used weed off and on for a very long time, but my tolerance was pretty low. But I would go there and it would just be like, we're going to just smoke you out. And I would just be so out of my mind that I would feel this feeling like, no, this feels wrong. However, they're telling me that it's right. They had a rule when we moved in that if somebody packed you a bowl, you had to finish it. And so we were just sort of stoned all of the time. I don't know if that was by design, but I'm sure it made us much easier to like convince that this was the right way. Oh my God. I'm so. I'm so. Oh, sorry. I mean, if that is not culty, like, it reminds me of the mansons, like, these like forced acid trips. That is such a common through line in classic cults and in all kinds of abusive cult-like environments. Like, it's definitely easier to manipulate someone who doesn't have their wits about them under the guise of, oh, we're just kicking back, you know, we're just dog people. We're just smoking a bowl. No big deal. But that is a big deal. And it's culty. Yeah, it's pretty culty. I'm wondering what happened to trainers, employees who pushed back in any way. Like, were they ousted socially? Were there repercussions for pushing back? Kind of surprisingly, there wasn't a whole lot of pushback from the methods themselves. And I think because he was so good at what he was doing as far as being convincing. He was very persuasive.

And we all trusted him. And we all saw results. But, you know, as hard as it was to see the path to get there, we saw that a lot of these dogs were just doing great. And now they were doing great with their families and they weren't being put down. And so I think for us, we were all pretty convinced that this was okay, what was happening. Can we mind that a lot of the other trainers, too, didn't see a lot of the things that I saw? I mean, that's the thing about Colts is that of course parts of it are amazing or else no one would join or stay. Yeah, but I did see some people who were on the periphery, like the people who maybe worked with some of the rescues. As soon as they started to catch wind of what was happening, I saw them bow out pretty quickly. And we're like, well, hell, what happened with those people? As soon as somebody didn't want to be there anymore, they were immediately the enemy. What does a sunny getaway with Air Canada sound like? Sunny Jamaica moves to its own rhythm. Rio comes alive long after the sun goes down.

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Inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. So this is like the first story of its kind that I at least have heard, but it actually doesn't surprise me at all that a cult could form around the love of dogs. I'm curious, looking back, do you think that this mission of helping dogs made it easier to rationalize harmful practices? And do you think that that mission, which resonates with so many people on this planet, is responsible for. for more dog-based cults than just this to exist?

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I could get so much into the rescue world and how culty that can be. And it's because the mission is to save dogs. People get so caught up in it that they're not seeing that a lot of their good intentions are creating a lot of problems as well. And creating a lot of problems for dogs and for people. Like the people who adopt a dog, suddenly the dog is displaying behaviors that even the rescue didn't know about.

And those people say, hey, I actually can. can't handle it. Maybe they try training. Maybe they don't, but they see something in this that they cannot handle. We need to give the dog back to the rescue. All of a sudden, they are just terrible people. And for me, like, yes, please bring the dog back. Because what happens? If you can't handle that problem, that dog goes and bites somebody, guess what? The dog gets put down probably. The rescue can get sued. How are they going to help other dogs if they don't have the money because they had to pay out a giant sum of money for their dog biting somebody? There's just a lot of things that People get so angry and so into like what their idea of good is that they can't see.

Again, nuance. There's no nuance there. And I'm not saying everybody. There's a lot of people that do have that nuance, but they're not the loudest people. Oh, thank you for saying that. You talked a little bit about this earlier about how after leaving this group, you were able to talk to close friends and even your therapist about your experience within the group. So how did people outside the dog training world react when you tried explaining what the culture was actually like? I have spoken to definitely a therapist, one of my close friends, and then my other friend who was in it with me.

Those are three people that know the details, like way more details than I shared here today. I think in general, everybody has been surprised. You know, I first started going to therapy. I was like, I really need to talk about this thing that happened. I think it was an occult. It's unexpected. It's a culty world. It's not super surprising.

But in actual, run for your life, do not get involved. Nobody's really expecting that. But I think it's because it's so hush, hush, and it's so behind closed doors. And you'll see news articles about, you know, abuse that sometimes happens and sometimes they get caught. It doesn't happen nearly as often as I think that it's actually happening behind closed doors. I don't think people get caught enough in this, whether it's because people aren't realizing it's happening, but also maybe somebody realizes it and then just doesn't say anything. Well, we're just not going to work with them anymore, but we're not going to say anything about what happened.

Yeah, it's so tough because, like, I don't know. I mean, we spoke to a lawyer once on this show in our cult of kundalini yoga episode who represents a lot of cult survivors specifically, like in the wellness space. And she was kind of articulating more concretely how challenging it is to hold cult leaders accountable in a court of law. Like, I mean, really just kind of like as sad as it is, like spreading the word in the media. And like on podcast and in headlines is some of the. the greatest power that people have. Yeah, and part of that power, at least from my perspective, is that his power over me is that I participated. And so I feel, and I'm working past this, a moral failing on my part that I have to come to terms with before I can really, I mean,

if I out him, I out myself. And I can take a step back from that now. I mean, I still have a long way to go in my healing journey. But I can take a little bit of a step back now and say, well, I was convinced that this was the right thing to do. And I, I feel extremely guilty about what happened in the things that I participate. But I'm also learning to look at who the real villain was there and it wasn't me. I'm implicated in it. But at the end of the day, that person is still out there doing pretty crazy things. I think a lot of people involved in cults of various kinds can relate to exactly what you just said.

There's so much guilt and shame wrapped up in perpetuating some of what someone who held a lot of fucked up power over you taught you. Yeah. Absolutely. And I'd like to know a little bit about that recovery. What did recovery from that environment actually look like for you mentally and emotionally? It still looks rough. I mean, if I'm being honest with you, like so my therapist actually listens to this show. No way. In fact, I think she brought it up to me. She's like, have you ever heard it sounds like a cult? I was like, yes, I have. Wait, I'm so touched. Right. Hello. She's going to hear this. And if I'm being honest, her and I's conversations leading up to this, one of the big things was, you probably shouldn't talk about this and maybe move in a different culty dog world direction

because I'm still grappling with a lot of this. I have not been able to heal. I mean, I'm making baby steps, but still, I mean, I can separate myself right now because this is an interview and like I can just put that mask on and be like, it's fine. I'm not over it, but I can have this conversation with you guys. When I'm really digging deep and trying to heal in a more like therapeutic environment, it's extremely difficult. And we are really having to like tiptoe around all of this because of the shame that built up. I haven't worked there since 2013. And I just buried it way down deep. And it wasn't until

this last year that the mask was like ripped off. And then everything sort of came to light. And I'm like, oh, now I have to really face this. So yeah, I mean, I'm still still healing from it. Among the more serious cults that we've covered on this show, this one sounds like one of the harder ones to recover from because not only is there not an ex-dog trainer cult community. It's like where you're supposed to find like a support group, but also because like dogs, again, they pull on people's heartstrings. They make people get like very sanctimonious sometimes. And it just makes perfect sense how a cult would erect, L.O.L. I'm sorry I said erect around this. And also how it would end up being really difficult to talk about it. So also say, thank you for sharing your story.

and uncomfortably, we do want to transition into playing a very stupid game. We always have to end our interviews on Sounds Like a Cult with the game. So if you can handle the transition from dark to light, Chelsea, can you explain it? Absolutely. Okay. This game is a game that we play on a lot of Sounds Like a Cult episodes. It is called Colty versus Cringe. This time we're doing Dog People Edition, okay?

We're just going to give you some prompts, and you let me know, is it just standard cringy dog people or is it a little culty? Okay. This game is going to be really helpful because we didn't understand, like, the boundaries of this. Like, when does it transition from cringe to culty? Okay. So, first things first, spending more on your dog's food than your own groceries. I'd say that falls more into, like, cult vibes, I think,

because it very much aligns with a lot of what I experienced in the rescue world where people were prioritizing a dog's well-being. over a humans while they. I experienced that a lot. So that very much fits into that culty dog culture. Well, it might hurt them if they're like going into debt. Would people go into debt like for dog training? A lot of people were paying a lot of money that I don't think that they had. And Fluffy was very convincing that this was what they needed to do. All right. Next one. Saying we're pregnant when referring to your dog having puppies. Ah. Unfixed dog. So borderline. I mean, it's pretty cringy what I'd say is borderline culty, I think.

Agreed. Paying for your dog to attend daycare so they can socialize. I'm actually very pro that, depending on the daycare, depending on the dog. I think that's good, especially if otherwise you're just going to be home alone all day while the person's at work. So depending on the situation, maybe a little cringy, but I'm okay with that. I love this next one. Trusting your dog's judgment of other people more than your own.

Calty. Mm-mm. Like, oh, Rex is very intuitive. would have. Yeah. No. That can go a lot of different directions, too. I think a lot of times dogs, I mean, don't get me wrong.

One of my dogs, unfortunately not here anymore, but she's just gorgeous pit bull. Some guy tried to come up on me on an isolated trail once. But the thing is, I was feeling it too. Like, I was feeling this is this vibe is off. She never growls at anybody. She growled at that guy. And he ran away. I would say they're probably more feeding off of your energy than they are on their own.

So if your dog is growling at somebody, they're likely feeding off of something that you're feeling. Absolutely. They are extremely intuitive, but they're more likely feeding off of yours than anyone else. Or the person that they're growling at is maybe just kind of scared of dogs. Yeah. Oh, no, I growl at people who don't like me. Like, ah. Okay.

Next one. And this is so West Coast coded. Honey. Throwing full birthday parties for your dog, complete with a cupcake, decorations, and invited guests. Oh, that's a little culty. I'm probably pretty cringe. I've attended dog birthday parties. I have willingly and enthusiastically. Coming at this from the perspective, too, what like what I experienced was pretty horrible. So if like the worst thing people are doing is like throwing their dogs parties and like maybe trusting their dog's intuition over their own, it's all pretty like mild

fun stuff. Like, that's fine. You work me to your dog. Like, please, please, especially coming also from the rescue world where, like, I would love for so many of those dogs to have birthday parties thrown for them. No, 100%. I mean, this is ultimately as silly as it is why we have our cult classification system. Because like, some of these are like, yeah, it's culty, but it's a live your life. Your cult experience, spoiler alert, get the fuck out, you know? Yeah, yeah. Somebody wants to join a dog training company out in a, remote property, maybe you think twice. Truly. Culte are just cringe. Believing your dog is spiritually connected to you. That's a little culty. Yeah. I think my dog is spiritually connected to the whole world.

What do we do about that? Also, okay, that's a hard question because I lost my heart dog last year. And that was extremely difficult. And I mean, and he went through all of that with me. I had him. That was the dog that I brought down. And like, so I did feel extremely connected to him spiritually. I don't know. But again, that's another thing where, you know, you guys feel that spiritual connection. You're going to take care of that dog, not neglect other people. Like, fine. It's a little.

Blop off. But, yeah, that's fine. I'm not going to judge you for that. Refusing to date someone because they aren't a dog person. See, that's a compatibility issue. I'm actually okay with that because. Okay, but I have a follow up. What if they like dogs perfectly fine?

they're just not a dog person, like a dog freak. Yeah, no, no, no. That's definitely culty. Because you could be missing out, make a pretty good connection with someone. It was fine. He was going to treat your dog fine. It's going to treat you well. But you're missing out because they're not in that same level as you, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Last one. Buying your dog a service vest just because you love them so much and can't part. I could talk for hours on this. Colty. Colt, Colt, Colt.

No, bad. Yep. Nope. Bad, bad, bad. There are people who need service dogs who are now being, I don't know, followed around by store staff because other people have taken advantage of this and they just don't invest on their dog. Thank you so much for being vulnerable and coming on this week's episode of Sounds Like a Colt. What can we do to support you? Like, I don't know. Do you want you? Like, how can we help? I don't know, man. Honestly, I don't have an answer to that question. I don't have like a following or anything. This is literally the first time that I've ever talked about this to

anybody on a more public forum. Honestly, I don't even know I'd answer that question. You know how you can help culties? Leave her alone. I'm trying to do something good. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you so much again.

Yeah, thank you for having me. Okay, Chelsea, it's time to discuss our verdict out of our three cult categories. Live your life. Watch your back and get the fuck out. Which do you think the cult of dog people falls into. Okay, so we obviously talked a little bit about this,

but I will say after hearing her story, in the program that she was a part of, very much so, get the fuck out. Please. Stacked, okay? But the cult of dog people is quite obviously a watcherback.

Thought I was going to say, live your life, huh? No. No, I agree. I mean, it's at a surface level extremely, extremely harmless, obviously. But there are some things that teeter into, I would say, very ridiculous behavior. And while it may be annoying, it is a little culty. So I would just say watch it back a little bit. I know. And I do think that because people are so vulnerable when it comes to anything involving their dog,

like your heart is just like fucking pouring out onto the table when it comes to like making sure that your dog is okay, making sure that you're a dog owner or whatever, that it can pave the way for some nefarious figures to take advantage. And so I have to say, if you are one of these dog people, like woof, woof, woof, doggy ass, doggy person, you got to watch your back. I agree. And to that same point,

let us not forget that it is indeed the cults of dog people that would make someone who's bringing their dog to the facility that our guest trained at. Because if you didn't care so deeply about your pup baby, you wouldn't be spending thousands of dollars to make sure that they are not ill-behaved. So you're right. It's definitely, definitely a watcher back. Wow, this was a very cathartic episode.

Got darker than I anticipated, but that sounds like a cult for you. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel, and edited by Jordan Moore of the Podcaven. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles.

This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism,

which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical O overthinking, notes on modern irrationality and words slut a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. Spotify advertising connects you with an audience that's engaged and ready to discover your brand.

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