Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Women for Trump

Episode Date: July 7, 2026

She's blonde. She's patriotic. She's wearing a Bible verse on her T-shirt while telling immigrants to go back where they came from. She's voting for Trump. This week we're revisiting our episode on The Cult of Women for Trump, with a new introduction reflecting on how much this movement has evolved over the past year. From homemaking influencers to conservative power players, the Women for Trump pipeline has never been stronger. But while some women have become the face of the movement, others seem to have vanished from the halls of power entirely. Curious! To help us unpack the contradictions, we're joined by journalist, author, and two-time courtroom victor over Donald Trump himself, E. Jean Carroll (@ejeancarroll1). Say a prayer for the republic, pour one out for Gloria Steinem, and press play while you still have rights. And be sure to tune in next week for a brand new episode where we tackle one of the most devastating examples of a cult creating a problem and then selling itself as the solution. Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  Pre-order Iman's new book, Once in a Timeline, here! Your pre-order helps make more books possible! Thank you to our sponsors! Thanks to Article for sponsoring this podcast! Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit h⁠ttps://www.article.com/discount/cult ⁠and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. To Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain, Head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.squarespace.com/CULT⁠⁠⁠ If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Use code PODCAST15 for fifteen percent off your first order at ⁠⁠⁠bit.ly/3OdtU5X Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform to help entrepreneurs stand out and succeed online. I am a longtime Squarespace user. Setting up Sounds Like a Cult.com took, I don't know, 30 minutes, but it doesn't look like it, if I may say so myself. And that's because of Squarespace's top-of-the-line features, including their design intelligence. I also love that if you are interested in selling things on your Squarespace website, you can sell not only physical products, but content.

And if you're feeling charitable, Squarespace also makes it easy to run a fundraiser on a Squarespace website. The point is, if you need a website, you need Squarespace. Head to Squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hi, Colties. Iman here. My new book, Once in a Timeline, is coming out wherever books are sold on October 13th.

This is a Groundhawks Day novel about an influencer who gets stuck in the literal algorithm and is forced to live out her perfect day in the life over and over again in an endless, infinite time loop. Hello, Colty. This story is both a chaotic, romantic roller coaster ride and an exploration of the digital rabbit holes we find ourselves unable to click away from. And I would be so unbelievably honored if you'd consider pre-ordering a copy from the link in our show notes.

Pre-ordering actually makes a massive difference in the success of the success of it. of a book, so your support would mean the absolute world to me and more. Anyway, I am so freaking proud of this book. I am so excited to share it with you. It's available for pre-order now. Link in our show notes. Once in a timeline. Love you.

Mean it. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. So culties. When we originally released this episode as the cult of Magawives, we were talking about a rising archetype that the show knows all too well. The Trad Wave influencers, the Women for Trump activists, the ultra-feminine conservative personalities selling a vision of American womanhood that champions subservience and patriotism. A year later, it is haunting just how much this dystopian cinematic universe has evolved.

Because the women of the MAGA movement have only become more and more visible and influential. I'm talking conservative female personalities like Caroline Levitt, Megan Kelly, Erica Kirk, Candice Owens, Katie Miller, not to mention the growing ecosystem of influencers that have built massive audiences by packaging conservative politics in a way that's highly shareable and has a genuine foothold in mainstream culture. What once may have seen, seemed fringe, extreme, culty, is now a centerpiece in our culture. And one person who really embodies this evolution is Erica Kirk. So when we first recorded this episode, she was primarily known as a conservative Christian personality whose public message encouraged women to

find purpose in family life and challenged modern feminist ideas about career, independence. Honestly, I don't think I'd ever even heard her name. But then, after her husband Charlie Kirk was killed, she was thrust from right-wing influencer to air a parent, taking over as CEO and chair of Turning Point USA and carrying forward one of the most consequential organizations in the MAGA movement. And it is a truly fascinating and harrowing sight to behold because this woman telling millions of followers that women should embrace a more subservient role has become a powerful public figure herself. Now, don't get me started on how conservative, misogynistic, and conspiratorial right-wingers have come up with all sorts of wild shit to say about

her, critiquing her for all the wrong reasons. But from the sounds like a cold perspective, what I can say is that Erica's rise really does mirror what we often see in more classically cultish movements. A person starts as a follower, maybe a high-ranking follower in the inner circle, becomes a spokesperson, and then opportunistically transforms into a symbol. Today, Erica Kirk has become one of the Trump cult's most recognizable faces, even beyond the conservative bubble in which she most comfortably slithers. And that kind of brings us to the super interesting contradiction at the heart of this entire phenomenon. As women for Trump have gained more cultural influence, many of the women who held, sell the movement, have found themselves increasingly sidelined when it comes to actual power.

Over the last year, we've watched several high-profile women rise to prominence within Trump's orbit, only to find themselves on the outside looking in. Former Attorney General Pam Bondi was reassigned. Tulsi Gabbard is gone. Christy Noem is gone. Thank fuck. Lori Chavez-Durumer is gone. Pretty much every cabinet-level departure so far has been a woman, and everyone, has been replaced by a man. Now, to be clear, each departure came with its own circumstances and controversies, but from a cult perspective, honey, look at the pattern. Women are often this movement and many cult movements,

most effective recruiters, messengers, public faces, but who really has the power at the end of the day? It's a male cult leader. The irony, honey. Countless listeners have requested us to do generally the cloblasts. of Trump over the years. But women for Trump are just simply a more interesting and more fitting subject for this particular podcast to discuss. A, because it's a little less obvious, B, because there's a female-run podcast, though, crucify us for being more interested in women,

but also because it provides us an opportunity to ask the culty question, are women becoming such a big part of this movement because they're really valued or because they're props, objects, useful, and then disposable. With that in mind, we're revisiting our conversation with the legendary E. Jean Carroll, whose story has actually only become more remarkable since we first spoke. Here's the latest. So after winning nearly $90 million in judgments against Donald Trump for sexual abuse and defamation, last week, the Supreme Court declined to hear Trump's appeal, leaving one of Eugen's landmark victories intact. Eugene's story is among many things, a reminder that challenging, powerful, cult-leaderie men

is not easy. It takes a lot of fortitude and conviction, and it can be a year's long battle against the systems built to protect them. So please enjoy this episode on the Cult of Women for Trump. We'll be back with a brand new episode next week about a movement that's spent decades trying to change people who didn't need fixing in the first place. But in the meantime, thank you for listening. This is Sounds Like a Cults, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host of Amanda Montel, author of some books including cultish, the language of fanaticism. And I'm your co-host, Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a student of

pop culture sociology. Every week on the show, we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that puts the cult in culture, from American girl dolls to anti-baxers. To try and answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A like your life, a watcher back, or a get the fuck out. After all, cultish influence these days falls along a continuum. And look, this word cult can mean a lot of things. It's subjective and context dependent, sometimes a little sensational, other times useful, other times cheeky and fun. But here's a thing. Often in this polarized social media-fueled era, the word does nothing but trigger people, right?

Like, it can be used to create division during a time when we certainly don't need more of that to shut down conversations, to make people feel judged. And that is not our aim. Here it sounds like a cult. This show, as those who've been listening for a while already know, is all about analyzing the ways cultishness shows up in everyday life, to examine the ways in which we are all susceptible to cult influence, but also to compare how not all cults these days are created to equal, and to have a laugh about it along the way.

We're cheeky here, and we try to only get explicitly political on sounds like a cult, like once or twice a year. Obviously, we have our own political biases. Mine are probably evident in my books, which are written through a feminist lens of power critique. Chelsea, Zenisrory with Kamala Harris, hello. And we're entitled to that bias, okay? This isn't a hard news podcast.

It sounds like a cult. And that said, we do our best to both seriously appraise and unseriously poke fun at people's culty dogmas while also respecting their core humanity. So if you can handle all of that, then cozy up with a Stanley cup full of mascara-coated right-wing tears. Because today, We're addressing a political sub-movement built on modesty, legal impunity,

and the fantasy of perfectly blow-dried patriarchy. The cult of Maga-wives thrives on high-gloss submission, curated Christian femininity, and weaponized charm. These aren't just political spouses. They're living avatars of a far-right fairy tale where smiling obedience replaces critical thought. And we are honored today to introduce the legendary E. Jean Carroll, journalist, author, and the woman who took Donald Trump to court and won. But before we begin our interview, we wanted to take a moment to set the stage because we're not just talking about a political movement. We're talking about a full-blown identity, an ideology, and a bit of a culty fantasy. You've probably seen them on Facebook.

Definitely Fox News. The women who preach trad wife values, sipping from Stanlies, standing behind their husbands at campaign rallies, they're ultra-feminine, ultra-devoted, and ultra-loyal to their men, their families, but mostly to Trump. Oof. The guns are blazing today. This script is giving. Anyways, let's quantify today's group in question a bit because the women for Trump, the MAGA-Wife movement, is more than just a voting demographic.

And while I do believe and admit that there's plenty of cultish thinking and rhetoric on the political left, look who's ultimately in power, okay? Maga women have clearly been able to centralize and mobilize themselves in a way that feels almost like fundamentalist religion the way that I see it, and that these believers have thrown themselves wholeheartedly into not just a belief system, but a culture that works against their own rights and long-term interests, all under the guidance of a self-proclaimed all-knowing demigog, and working in very effective service against a common, blasphemous enemy.

So here are some numbers. In 2016, over 52% of white women voted for Trump, and in 2020, that number actually rose to 55%. That's according to Pew Research, despite decades of misogynist behavior, like as if we need to resummarize, the Access Hollywood tapes, the sexual assault and her rights,

harassment allegations and convictions, Trump's pro-life stance, his, well, lull, his performative pro-life stance, who knows, and his fraternization with known pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, look, we're not here to rehash election statistics or talking points, but rather mostly here to ask why, how, for whomst, wherefore, indeed, why would so many women, particularly white Christian suburban women rally behind a man and a movement that has so openly dismissed and demeaned them. We're hoping, sincerely, and jokingly, and sincerely, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, to understand. Sociologists have been asking these same questions, too. So we'll link some of these sources at our show notes, but one explanation for why this has all gone down is that this Magaweaf

movement offers a sense of identity and belonging, like Q&on conspiracy theories. It promises is logic and order amid the chaos of today. Research shows that people are often drawn to authoritarian figures in times of perceived instability because it's that illusion of protection of a strong man who can restore things into a fantasy notion of equilibrium. And the aesthetic that we're seeing now, the blowouts, the Bibles, the babies, all the babies. Mommy, mommy, take me home. It's not a coincidence.

TikTok is literally flooded with trad wife. I can't escape it. Listen, ballerina forms, Nara Smith. And she was on the news. She was literally on like, what, good morning America? I don't know. Yes. She was actually just on Jay Shetty and she was like, listen, don't call me a Trad Wife because I don't subscribe. And I was like, oh, walk that. Check out our episode on Trad Wives as a little amuse bouch to this episode, many of which are either directly linked to MAGA influencers or carry the same undertones, submission as empowerment, modesty as virtue, and domesticity as rebellion against modern blue-haired feminism. Oh my God, they're such oxymorons. E. Jean puts it best

later. Stay tuned. According to a 2023 study, Tradwife influencers use soft aesthetics to smuggle far-right ideology into mainstream spaces without appearing overtly political. Oh my God, Chelsea. Have you ever come across the online magazine EV, EVI-E-E-I-E-Magazine? I don't think so. I regret that I have, but basically it's exactly a representation of what you just described. It's like Gen Z-Z alt-right Cosmo, where they have articles on like dresses to wear for spring and how to make your lashes look extra long amid full-blown, Dem stole the election type coverage, conspiracy theories, super anti-choice ideology baked into seemingly innocent articles about like how to get off your birth control. It's so disturbing. It's not like

a hugely subscribed to magazine, but it's trying to be. And it is this like soft pastel feminine magazine aesthetic that represents this exact culture. Okay, that's... Don't Google it. I was about to say, that's disgusting. But now you've peaked my interest because I've never even heard of that. But the way you're describing it, it's like, they're not even being coy about it. You know what I'm saying?

Not really, no. This isn't new either. This kind of gender performance has been part of the far-right playbook for decades. From Phyllis Schlafly, a conservative activist and anti-feminist in the 70s who fought the Equal Rights Amendment while baking pie. to the RNC lineup of women speakers that praised Trump as being compassionate. But in 2025, it's glossier, more Instagramable, and more viral than ever. Okay, so not to get ahead of ourselves here, but when you run the MAGAWife movement through a GTFO-level cult checklist, it's kind of check, check, check.

You've got your charismatic leader, the Orange Messiah on his golden toilet throne. You've got your us versus them, mentality, sharp division between the in-group, the righteous, the chosen, the patriotic, and the out-group, the corrupt, the evil, the woke, the blue hair. You got your exit costs. Because if you were to leave the MAGA movement, you would alienate yourself from your family that's still deeply entrenched, including kids that you raised to believe in the deep state. And wrapped up in all of that, of course, is the sunk cost fallacy. Because after eight-plus years of patronizing Trump merch and going on Facebook rants and ostracized, Woke family and friends, cultivating a trad wave aesthetic, and adopting this identity as your

own, sinking all these resources into this mentality. Backing down now would mean having to admit that you're in something cultish. And look, again, many of these dynamics show up on the political left too. It frankly sometimes does feel like the battle of the cults out there these days, but one key difference is that the left does not have a singular populist authoritarian at the helm like Trump. And that is ultimately what we're here discussing today. So, moving on. There's also a demonization of outside information, distrust in the MSM, the mainstream media. It reminds me of what Scientologists call Black PR. And then, of course, thought-terminating cliches and alienating buzzwords, cultish language up the wazoo. Fake news. Witch hunt. God put him there. Do your own

research. Not to mention, and this is one of those fascinating parts to me, the rituals. The agatha themed gender reveals, the prayer chains for Trump's legal battles. This truly is not just a political affiliation. It is a whole culture for the, sorry, culture less. To help us unpack this glittering, gaslighting archetype and the brutal systems, it props up, we are joined today by a true icon. Journalist author, sorry. Yes, yes. Journalist author most recently of the New York New York Times bestselling memoir, not my type, one woman versus a president. She is the woman who took Donald Trump, the Cheeto, to court for sexual abuse and defamation, and won.

As a voice behind the iconic L. advice column that ran for over 25 years, an Emmy nominated writer for her work on S&L, and a widely published writer across genres, her accomplishments are innumerable. may we introduce the unyielding E. Jean Carroll. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform to help entrepreneurs stand out and succeed online. So whether you're just turning out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it super easy to build the website of your dreams,

to connect with your audience, and to sell anything from products to content to even your valuable time. I am a longtime Squarespace user. Setting up Sounds Like a Cult.com took, I don't know, 30 minutes. But it doesn't look like it, if I may say so myself. And that's because of Squarespace's top-of-the-line features, including their design intelligence, which combines two decades of industry-leading design expertise with cutting-edge AI technology

to help you unlock your strongest creative potential. I also love that if you are interested in selling things on your Squarespace website, you can sell not only physical products, but content. Like if you're a photographer or a cult leader who wants to sell an online course, ha-ha. Kidding, but not really. You can sell apps absolutely anything on a Squarespace website. And if you're feeling charitable, Squarespace also makes it easy to run a fundraiser on a Squarespace website, to manage your donors,

to collect their donations all in one easy place. The point is, if you need a website, you need Squarespace. Head to Squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to Squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hey, y'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder, what if, like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. Ejean, welcome. We would first love to try and properly contextualize who the maga wives are and what they seem to represent. So, from your

perspective, when you examine these women, what do you perceive as their transcendent mission? Is it mostly about politics and marriage the way you see it, or is there something bigger going on in the way that they present themselves and collectively rally to protect men like Trump. Well, I try not to look at them. I try not to be a will. Keep them off. My landscape. I try to ignore them. I try to not think of them. But I understand them, I think, because all we're looking at, this is not a scary thing. It's not scary. We're looking at something that women that are just simply traditional, where a man is the leader. We love a strong man. Whatever the man says, that's the truth. The man leads the family. Women comes second. So what we're looking at is

something that has been around for thousands and thousands of years. Why it's disturbing and so upsetting and sometimes making us want to puke and just put our hands up. so we don't see it, it's because looking at them seems to set us back hundreds of years. We have the feeling that because we're looking at the past, we think we've gotten past that, but as we know what's going on right now in politics is many of us, particularly living in the South, have no more rights over our own bodies. They're cutting, you know, the education bills, we're cutting our health bills, a woman is having difficulties now going to the doctor's.

But the traditional wives love it. standing for everything we fought against. So we understand why they're that way. We understand it. And it's sickening. It's sickening to see. We don't want our daughters to look at us. I could not agree with you more, Ejean. I want to first start off by saying I am like a hater. I love a lot of things, but I am a chronic hater. And to that same point, I hate even giving them fuel because I don't consume a lot of MAGAWife content. I don't. don't have Maga wife friends. And some would say that that is like a, I don't know, I guess I'm kind of like in my own type of like liberal echo chamber, but I like it this way. But to your

point about these wives in association with their husbands, I can't help thinking about the ethos of traditional feminism versus intersectional feminism and how the OG feminism kind of upheld this narrow liberation of a certain demographic that didn't disrupt a certain social order. And I think the Maga Wives represent a certain womanhood that finds power in proximity to power. And they don't give a fuck about anybody else. They just care about how they can benefit from being in proximity to these strong men. That's fascinating. Proximity.

What a weak way of thinking. that is like the weakest. That's a really interesting thought. And we see that with Trump. Trump only thinks of himself. And everybody around him only thinks of him. Hence, basically almost everybody in the Republican Party is a traditional wife, including the men. I love to hear it put that way.

And it really mirrors the gendered power dynamics and hierarchy of, cults that we can think of from the 60s and 70s, including the People's Temple, aka Jonestown, and all the way to more recent years with nexium, there is a man at the top, an opportunist, someone with a chip on their shoulder, someone who believes that they're entitled to a certain power that maybe they were given a taste of from birth, but weren't able to actualize completely. And then their inner circle, like the second tier down is this group of white, young, normatively beautiful women who sort of trade their sexuality and their performance of femininity for exactly what you're saying, Chelsea, a little bit more power.

And I love the idea that if a man ends up in that inner circle too, that he's just a trad wife too. Lindsay Graham, J.D. Vance, all of them. Trad wives. J.D. is a trad wife. The tradiest. Pretty soon we're going to see J.D. for more eye makeup and the lips. I can see it. Honestly, he has a face that looks like it could take a lot of makeup. Oh, my God. A very beatable face. He does. Those eyes, they're big, they're round, they're ready for a palate. Here's the thing. If you're Zoftig and brunette or brown, you are not a trad wife. That's facts.

No zopters. Can you see any in power, anybody who's zoffting? No, no, except for Trump. Honestly, Trump is in drag. He's beaten himself outside of like the bounds of humanity. My friend Jill Hart, who was a Trump accuser, she was the first woman to sue him. She withdrew the suit, unfortunately, because her husband made her do it. She is a makeup artist.

And when he started running in 2015, Jill ran into him at one of his. his rallies and she drew him aside. She said, Donald, listen, let me talk to you. You're going way too heavy on the orange. Listen to me just for a minute. I know you look good and you look good on camera, but you've got to bring down the orange and you've got to not do the contouring. We can see the contouring and he wouldn't listen to her. We can see it. We can see it. Let me ask you, If you have a friend or a cousin or someone who is a Trump woman, how do you speak to her? How do you get to move her brain? That's a beautiful question.

I don't have any of those. Well, I didn't even choose it. I was born into like a family of communists. But famously, you can't change anyone's mind. So you have to sort of make them feel seen and respected enough while injecting enough glitches in their train of thought, that they might be able to change their own mind. And it's not something that everyone can stomach, but in theory, if I were to go face to face, I think I would have to oddly mimic some of that proximity, right? Like, people trust people who remind them of themselves.

So you have to kind of cosplay. You know what I mean? Wow. This is interesting. That's profound. This is how you get to them. To basically piggyback off of that, I a thousand percent agree. I think that it is important to meet people where they are and not come from a condescending space. That, again, is very hard for me not to do when the facts are there. It would feel too weird to be in community with those people. But at the same time, like, when you're talking about accountability, you can only hold other people accountable who you are in community with. And I actually misspoke. I do have one person, do have one person who I am in community with.

And I make it a point to listen and to try to not come across judgey. But like I said, that's, that's extremely hard. Given all that we know. Well, Chelsea, as I understand it, you're famous. You're famous for being able to produce love and companionship. You're famous for this. You know what? You're reading me, and I appreciate that. I appreciate that because you're so totally right. Wow.

You can actually manipulate closeness where it's least likely to happen. You're right. You're creating love. How do we get these things? idiots away from the man they like and towards a more intelligent view of the world. Oh my God, Eugen, you're such a genius because, okay, Chelsea is a reality TV producer. Trump is a reality TV star who's managed to surround himself by all these wives, like on The Bachelor. So how do we get Chelsea to play this man's reality TV game and get

All these girlies to turn away to a new suitor. This question is so good. I am flabbergasted. We have to treat it like a reality show. Now this is empowering. You're so right. Because when you talk about reality stars, a lot of people don't realize, like, it has parallels with scripted. Obviously, there are parallels with the scripted world.

But there are always these complex characters. Trump is what I would describe as a complex character, right? Well, he's really not that I'm complex. But anyway, he is a beloved villain, okay? And so usually those are, okay, this is behind the scenes, the producer favorites because they are willing to, I guess, put themselves out there. So yeah, you bring up an interesting point because there could be something there. We just need to cultivate love with this.

I don't agree with this. We need to go. Wait, but I'm seeing, okay, because if it's a producer favorite, there's someone who is not, like, super concerned with reputation management in terms of being, like, a good person. They're concerned with being the star that the producers want them to be. Yes. Trump doesn't have any feminist morally centered producers, so to speak, in his inner circle.

Someone needs to infiltrate. We need to infiltrate these spaces. Yes, to make him play. because he seems easy to manipulate, honestly, if you put him this way. If a producer says this will make you more of a star. Uh-huh. This is so fascinating. He's in it for the cloud.

Wow. Okay, so we talked a little bit about feminism, and we teased it a little bit. So some women genuinely believe supporting Trump was a feminist act. As someone who directly challenged him, what do you make of that whole narrative? I can't even take your role. words and turn anything that I can understand. Who would vote for Trump and call it a feminist act? It cannot be true. You cannot vote for Trump on feminist principles. That cannot be true. You are completely fooling yourself, which is a problem because that's what's going on. Well,

the thing is, they're not vaccinating anymore and they're dieting to where they have no brain left. So, of course, they can't think because they're thin, they're white, they're covered, and I don't know what kind of makeup, they've lost, the use of their brains. You're completely right. And fooling yourself is a critical mental magic trick within cults. You have to put pieces in place to let the dominoes fall such that these people can fool themselves. And I think one of the ways that women for Trump, Maga wives, fool themselves, is through the performance of femininity that they take on as a privilege, as a joy. It's something that many of us see in our social media feeds, this high performance almost drag-like aesthetic of corsets and mock tales and girly pop nationalism.

How do you characterize this uniform through a cult lens and what do you think makes it effective? These questions stunned me. You explained it at the top of your show. There's a feeling of community among them, and they cannot be outsiders in their own community. And you say the proximity to power. It's the love of a strong man, and I'm sick of that. You know, what about the love for a strong woman? Your whole podcast, I find gobsmacking because the concept is so sickening because they are

They're cutting medical care for their children, a woman's right to their own bodies, the education of women, the help to families. They are cutting it off. And when they're cutting it off, they're giving all those billions of dollars to billionaires. They're giving it all to the people who do not need it because they love a strong man. What you said about Trump caring only about himself and everyone's surrounding him, caring only about him, keeps coming back up for me here because it reminds me that he sets the standard of performance, of aesthetics, of mode of thinking,

or whatever, and his vibe is very like hyper-masculine, and he speaks in this, like, rambling almost at like a fourth-grade reading level, sort of like extreme nonsensical way, then to belong in a group that he is at the helm of, you have to fall into place. And that place means dressing like a trad wife, like you said, going on these ultra-slimming diets, returning to some imagined fantasy of traditional 50s, Leave It to Beaver America. But he set that tone. Like, at first I was thinking, oh, like, they created this culture, but he set the tone first. Yeah.

He said, make America great. But that America never existed. The one he has in mind is the Leave It to Beaver thing. So I want your podcast to do something about this. It's up to you. We're trying. We're trying. No, we should.

Honestly, we're going to do more episodes like this. We are. And I'm so glad we're doing this. And I'm so glad that you're joining us for this conversation. Well, I won't be a happy person for the rest of the day because everything's so upsetting. When you think about it, it's dangerous. It's true. And we have to find ways to stay energized.

I want everybody on September 16th. at high noon, Eastern time, everybody's going to tweet the same message. Okay? We're going to start attacking Trump with lightness and humor. Funny. We need to have people trust us. That's a big point. It's going to look like fun because nobody is telling Trump no.

And nobody is telling Trump things that he disagrees it. So September 16th, high noon, we're all going to tweet the same message. Come to my substack, E. Jean Carroll, and you'll find out where to go. You have a downloadable calendar. And we are going to attack in this lighthearted, evil way every day. Because if he moves to try to stop us, he looks ridiculous. And if he does nothing, he looks weak. That's a start. I live for this. Do not threaten me with a good time, E. Gene. This is my favorite type of evil. I know.

A little comedy. And we will be coming to you for some ideas for our daily message. Oh, gorgeous. We would love to lend some copyright and consulting. Yes. Yes. Short and clever and witty and something gets to him. Okay.

And if you can rhyme it, you know, if the glove fits, you know, you got to quit. Right. Oh, thank you. You need some couplets? Oh, God. I am a Pantameter, okay? Yes, I am in Pimidam. We got you.

Say let. Don't threat me with a good rhyme. I'm telling you. You don't even have to leave the house. You don't have to donate money. You don't have to do shit except just toast on Twitter or Reddit or Blue Sky or TikTok, whichever your thing is, out it goes. And let's hope it's build to millions and millions of people doing this every day.

The cult of people. the savage witticism. You don't have to pay for a Soul Cycle membership. You just got to get a notebook out and start writing jokes. That's good. Call to the wittism right in this law. I'm crying. So, Eugen, as someone who challenged Trump directly, what is your understanding of the way these women work to protect and legitimize harmful power rather than question it? How do they do that? And how do they justify it? Well, it's not just trad wives. It's not just. It's not just just the cult of the Trump woman. It's every woman is fearful of coming forward or saying what happened because nobody believes

her. That's why. That's very simple. Nobody believes if you speak out against a powerful man and you're a woman, who are they going to believe? They're going to believe the powerful man. However, I beat Trump twice. The only person on the earth and I'm fucking 81 years old.

So if I can do it. It's so galvanizing because you're absolutely right. The fear of being gaslit and being demeaned. It's so immobilizing. I feel that way too a lot of the time. But even like in this conversation right now, I feel like so loud because you're here. So thank you. Is that what should we call this uprising? What should we call it? Loud? That's not a bad turn. Loud. What should we call this thing we're doing. Yeah, I love the idea of like reclaiming a sort of slur or criticism lobbed against women's voices, like shrieking, shrill, all of these things. There are so many. We'll create a little list. Long list. Long list. So women are not believed and not only are they

not believed they're fired. God help a single mother of those kids. She cannot come out against the floor manager of the factory where she works, you know, nine hours, she can't come out against him. Likelihood, she'll lose her job. Maybe not immediately, but they'll work it out some way where she won't get the raise. So, you know, women have to calculate. Do I feed my kids or do I tell the truth? I'm knocking on me every day.

So that's why women don't. And we're, as you say, immobilized from birth to believe the powerful man. Even though every woman knows underneath, we've all. had things happen. Every single woman listening to this podcast, every single woman, including those who are six years old. Yep. There's always something. And you know, I just, I keep thinking about how he's surrounded by these yes people, people who don't push back to your point. And it makes sense that Maga Wives fit this profile of like thin, white, wealthy, et cetera, because for them, like the patriarchy works. You're like not going to have to say no that much. It's not going to be

as tempting. But there's a reason why people who end up defecting from cults like this, it's only after they have a problem. They have a problem that is so urgent, that is so itchy, that is so painful that they have to say something. And that is the moment when it no longer works for them. And that is the moment where they're ostracized and they realize that it's not working anymore. Until that moment, it works. But that's not going to work for people who don't fit this profile. Right. Interesting. So if we ridiculed Trump and these funny messages, will his followers start to think it's pretty uncomfortable for me? He's really all these ridiculous things. Will he look bad? Will he look powerful of millions are saying these terribly cutting, funny things about, will he look

powerful anymore? Well, a story that comes to mind is one of the granddaughter of the founder of the Westboro Baptist Church. They protest outside of funerals. They have like the signs that say like God hates facts and stuff like that. This woman, her name is Megan, she engaged in a debate with someone who was politically opposing her on Twitter and they chatted long enough that something he said was able to penetrate and she flipped. And so I feel. I feel. I feel feel like we don't all have hours and days and weeks and months and whatever to dedicate to one person, almost like a mentee. We don't all have that time. But if we can all, by the millions, gather together and use the cutting power of humor, then maybe enough people will resonate

with something that said in that throng of messages that it could start to make an incremental difference. That's a hopeful idea. Girl, something will listen it. Hi, I'm Eric Voss from New Rockstars, and if you want to know what's coming up next from the MCU, you should listen to The Sneak Peak, hosted by myself and Jessica Clemens. Sneak Peak is your one-stop shop for keeping up with Kevin Feigey

and his brain trust of nerd producers. It's a weekly roundup of all the most important Marvel news so that you can start getting excited about the MCU's next big movie or series before there's even a trailer out. What should we expect? Not just from this phase or saga, but the next one too. Part of the fun of the Marvel Cinematic Universe is being excited about the next chapter,

and that excitement is exactly why we make Snake Peak. Listen for free on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When news breaks about Marvel, DC, Star Wars, or anything else you're obsessed with, the break room is where the conversation is happening. I'm John Costa. And I'm Zach Huddleston. Together with our co-host, Eric Voss, Jessica Clemens, Brandon Barrick, and Gina Ipolito, we help you digest the headlines around your favorite fandoms,

Casting, plot leaks, interviews, actors crushing out on social media. We get into all of it. Plus, we do weekly after shows and Q&As for the breakroom's favorite shows and movies. We got you covered and we'll give you the context you need to have a deeper understanding of the things you love. With new shows three times a week, you'll be up to speed in no time. Listen to the break room for free on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So before we get into the rest of our interview with the incredible, formidable E. E. Jean Carroll, I wanted to share with you.

culties, something that happened with regard to the MAGA movement recently in my personal world that kind of made this all feel newly real in an unexpected way for me. So my literary agent recently informed me that college professors are actually becoming hesitant to assign my book cultish, to put my book, cultish, the language of fanaticism, on their class syllabi, this nonfiction book about language and group think because they fear retaliation from Trump and his administration, his supporters, as there are some moments that are critical of Trump's cultish speech in book. I have stumbled across discourse here and there online where some readers were wondering why I choose to include critiques of Trump in the book

strategically because it could alienate some readers. And the wild thing about that is that I was actually putting finishing touches on my book cultish after Trump's first presidency ended. And I could never have imagined he would enter the White House again. I also could never have imagined the size of the readership that would encounter my book. I wasn't writing the book strategically at all. I was writing it out of sincere curiosity. That's what informs all of my writing projects. And so I, I could have never predicted a world in which, A, more readers than I expected would even find the book, B, a world in which Trump would be reelected, and C, that American universities in 2025 would be afraid even to discuss this book in the sanctuary within academia for fear of retaliation from the government. Trump has reportedly tried to have parts of the Constitution removed from the Library of Congress.

He's had his impeachment removed from a Smithsonian exhibit. And somehow Gisland Maxwell has just released a statement saying that she never saw Trump do anything wrong. Right after being moved to a lower security prison, right after Trump's personal attorney, who happens to be his appointed deputy eternal general to the United States, visited her in her former maximum security prison. There's just like such a quid pro quo sort of hypocritical vibe going on. And this level of authoritarianism and corruption is happening in broad daylight. And yet there is still this unwavering faction of men and women who defend him no matter what, particularly the Magawives, the enablers, the influencers, the influencers.

These are the ones that we're going to continue discussing today in our episode on the cult of Maga Wives. So with that, let's proceed with our interview with the inspirational and masterful E. Jean Carroll. We have a couple more questions for you, E. Jean. And then Chelsea devised, speaking of humor, just the most delightful game. Ask me easy questions because those questions you've been asking are impossible. They're hard to ask something easy. Like, what are you having for dinner? What are you having for dinner? What should I have?

You tell me, I don't know. What are you having for dinner, Chelsea? I'm going to do a butter bean soup. That's right. With a little pesto dollops and some tomato confi. I've been planning it for three days. But you know, I cook. That's my hobby. Amanda, what are you having?

She's a closet, tried wife, like, in the best way. Like, I can't marry me. I don't know. I'm having whatever my husband's going to cook. Hey. Okay. That's good. That's cool.

I don't have time to think about that. I'm out here. Girl bossing too close to the sun and Casey's going to cook. Okay, okay. You know how historically, like after 9-11, great depression, la-la-la, Conservatism was all the rage. People were like, you know what? Progressivism, it's too hard.

Let's go back to some fantasy of the past. Why do you think that these nostalgic, oppressive visions of femininity resonate with women during these turbulent times? Like, fine, they resonate with men. Why are women embracing them? Like, it seems so upside down and backwards. I think you're partly right, but I think after the second world, war. Women who had been in the factories returned to the home for about 15 years. And I thought,

nope. And then we had Eleanor Roosevelt. We had the New Deal. Women then burst out. The call a conservative did happen. Women couldn't go to the factory and work. They couldn't do this. But they were in the homes for about 15 years. And they said, no, fuck this, honey, fuck this. Let's get out. Because obviously, we become conservative when we're frightened. and you become progressive when you're free and you're loving life. Ooh, yeah. It's interesting that progress happens in good times. Because then people who traditionally get to occupy roles of power don't feel as threatened.

And like how interesting is it that we don't recognize that pattern that says something. That's like a cultish pattern that we need to pay attention to. Well, people are frightened now because Trump's told them the fucking end of the world. world is coming, that we're in debt, that America has been this world. And this city, what he said about Baltimore, it's murder city. It's the worst city on earth. These are shit things. And those countries over there are shit countries, and it's all horrible. And I'm going to save you all. This is his thing. He tells you how bad it is that he's going to save you. Of course, people are frightened. He's the president of the United States. He tells him to be frightened.

They're going to be frightened. But liberal times are coming again. He's not going to be here. forever. In doomsday cults, the rapture, the apocalyptic prophecy, it never comes. And so the people who still believe end up on the fringes and the people who come to their senses do what people who come to their senses do. And they rejoin reality. So lots of hope. This is good.

This is good. That makes me feel good. I'm going to go tell my friends. That's good. Ejean, do you think men like Trump see MagaWives as true partners in their movement are more as instruments in image management, people who help to uphold a narrative without necessarily being valued as individuals. Don't ask me how men see women. Every man sees differently. Every man sees the woman he needs to see. If he needs to see that, traditional wife, he'll see it. J.D. Bance saw his wife,

a lawyer and a graduate of, you know, Harvard. He saw her as a partner, and she's becoming more and more trad wife. Because J.D. Fance is seeing her that way. And I hate to say it, women are guilty of this. They try to fit the man's vision. Yep. Shear death.

And I have been there. I've tried to make many a man happy. And I have made a couple of husbands very happy. And we had great marriages. The marriages were great, just because the marriage ends doesn't mean it fails. So every man has a different vision and every woman has to fit that different vision. I agree. I have a theory about Ushah Vance, though.

Oh, okay. Because I feel like it is not by mistake that she showed up at the Republican National Convention in her modest blue dress with not a tinge of makeup, no red lip, No nothing and no earrings even. Growing up in my household, that was a Cardinal sin. No distracting jewelry. I think it is by design and very deliberate because no one can tell me that an Indian American woman, child of immigrants, twice Ivy League educated, is just totally oblivious to the world that's happening around her.

I think Usha is honestly like emblematic. of what these Maga Wives represent because I don't think they're just sitting there, twirling their hairs, and just acquiescing to their husband's hubris. I think that they're the ones who are captaining the ship. And I hate to even say that theory because it then absolves these men of any type of responsibility in this whole shit. But Usha's not fucking stupid. No. And she's participating in a sort of transaction. Do you remember in my big fat Greek wedding when the mom goes like,

men are the head, but women are the neck? Yep. It's good. It's like that. I'm so sorry. I don't know if that was a Greek accent. I love Greece. No, that was good.

That was good, girl. You may have come up with something here. Now, this is frightening, and I'm going to have to stand up and leave the room because it's your podcast. You did this. You did it. Chelsea just did it and Amanda just said, I had nothing to do with this, okay? Uh-uh. You're going down with us. You're going down with us.

You just said, what if the trad wives and the Trump cult women are running the show? It wouldn't be the first time. It wouldn't be the first time. Oh, man. There's a lot of gender play in this. You know, like they think it's so binary. They think it's so normative. but like there's a lot of drag. There's a lot of performance. There's a lot of like flipping power dynamics. It's very interesting when you think of it as like performance art. Like if you strip away the stakes, it's fascinating.

For all we know, Melania is run in this country. For all we know. Honestly, for all we know, that just goes to show. We're just speculating. We're just we're just yapologists doing our thing. Because he's not getting in. And he will go down and he'll. will try to make her happy.

She could be. She's smart enough running the show. And it's your fault. She could be. It's your fault. You made me think of it. For the record. Is Chelsea Charles the president of the United States?

That could be for all we know. Behind the scene. For all we know. We know. Eugen, before we see. start cooking dinner. We need to play a game. Okay, yeah. So E. Gene, for the first time, it sounds like a cult history. We are going to play a fun game of MagaWife Mad Lives. So I'm going to give you a few prompts to create a MagaWife caption for our cover photo selfie

for this episode, okay? First of all, do you consent? I think I consent. Okay, all right. It's not enthusiastic but it's functional. Can you give us a time of day, just any time of day? High noon. High noon. Next, a noun. Orange. Flawless. Next, an adjective. Delectable. Next, a noun. Toilet. Love. And next, another adjective. Light. Next, this is a little more than a part of speech, but we have all the faith in you. Next is a moral lesson about submission. Moral lesson about submission. Moral lesson. Let me see. Only the strong survive.

Perfect. That was good. The next one, an extreme adjective. Rambunctious. Love it. Okay, two more. An adjective. Beautiful.

And then the last one, a plural noun. Tits. I can't wait. I'm so excited. Oh my God. Okay, Chelsea, are you going to do the honors of reading this? Because I'm not going to get through it without laughing. Beautiful.

Okay. Ejean, this is our caption. Every day, I wake up at high noon to make sure my orange is delectable enough for my husband. Remember, ladies, you have a toilet, so use it for Trump. Our light leader. Only the strong survive. Hashtag rambunctious family values.

Hashtag beautiful tits for Trump. You said that. You said that. That's brilliant. Oh my God. It is. It's so great. Okay. Every day I wake up at high noon to make sure my orange is delectable enough for my husband.

Remember, ladies, you have a toilet, so use it for Trump, our light leader. Only the strong survive. Hashtag rambunctious family values. Hashtag beautiful tits for Trump. end quote eugene carroll on the ground hashtag rambunctious family values i love i'm galvanized oh my god okay e jean you are a legend you are a genius you are a hoot and a holler thank you so much for joining this conversation we worship you on the level of cult leader can you please let our listeners know one more time about that rallying cry for September before we get off.

Just E.G. and Carol on Substack. They can get the downloadable calendar and get the phrase of the day, and then we are going to attack. Period. Okay, Chelsea, it's time for our verdict. Out of our three cult categories, live your life. Watch your back. And get the fuck out. Which one do you think the cult of Mago Wives falls into. I'm going to pull it E. Jean and I'm going to say I don't even understand this question. When it is

quite obviously, get the fuck out. You already know. Come on, y'all. Yes. I know. Yeah, I know. And this, I am reminded, is another reason why we don't always choose to cover one of these more extreme groups on the pod

because it like takes away from the point, which is like to get to a verdict. It's obviously a get the fuck out. Yes. Like a group that coerces you to act against your own interests, fall in line, say yes to everything, create enemies out of your allies and allies out of your enemies. It's just like so flip-flop, whack-a-doodle, dystopian, horrific. Sorry, it just is. you can wear red lipstick and vote for women's rights, okay?

I agree. I think for me it is a resounding get the fuck out because what annoys me about Magawives is that they agree with the idea that patriarchal societies are the only way society could ever even exist. And obviously we've seen in the early American examples of feminism and early feminism was inspired by the Iroquois women, which they had very thriving matriarchal societies. And those women that were in positions were in positions of power and not just influenced by proximity.

And so for me, I'm just like, I don't know what kind of cognitive dissonance you have to practice to be able to be associated with the bullshit that is MAGA. But, yeah, I don't know. I think ultimately, and this was. discussed on our Incells episode too, but I think it partially has to do with like a profound lack of creativity. In order to subvert generations old practices, whether they're as low stakes as like wedding traditions or as high stakes as the foundational system of imperialist patriarchy, you have to get a little bit inventive and it's tiring. And there are a lot of systems in place

already to convince you that you don't need to do all that. You don't want to do all that. And And for these MAGA wives, they're the easiest people to convince that you don't need to do all that, that you don't want to do all that. But just get a little bit creative. Experiment with a little progressivism in your home. In private. See how it feels. Yep. See how it feels. To engage with your husband in an intellectual conversation where pushback is invited. I don't know. Try it out. See how it is. See how it feels. We invite you. Because it gets practice in my house every day. I know what I was going to say.

I was like, I yeah, we get a lot of practice. Oh, goodie gum drops. Well, Chelsea, you're iconic. Eugen, she's the hero. And that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty.

But not too, Colty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Podcaven. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Oversinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, and Words Slut, a Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different. Locked in, loyal, invested. They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music. They feel seen by it.

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