AI “de-skilling”: What happens when we offload our work to AI? With Brooke Macnamara, PhD
00:00From writing emails to reading CAT scans, millions of people across a wide range of professionsnow use AI tools to help them do their jobs. In many cases, these tools save time and make us moreproductive. But as workers increasingly rely on AI tools for critical job tasks, some psychologistsare asking, what will happen to our own skills as we hand over more work to artificial intelligence?People have worried about losing skills to technology before.We have GPS, so we rarely bother to look at maps anymore.Calculators change the way we do math.And in aviation, experts have long studied how autopilot affects pilot's skills.
00:41So is AI just the latest example of this so-called cognitive offloading?How is it changing the way people learn, remember, and develop expertise?Are some skills more vulnerable to loss than others?Does it matter whether you're a novice or already an expert when you start to use AI?And what can workers do to make sure they're using AI in ways that help rather than hinder their learning and development?Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, the flagship podcast of the American Psychological Association that examines the links between psychological science and everyday life.I'm Kim Mills.My guest today is Dr. Brooke McNamara.
01:23Dr. McNamara is an associate professional.professor of psychological sciences at Purdue University, where she directs the skill, learning,and performance laboratory. Her work explores how people acquire skills and expertise in professionsranging from elite sports to medicine. She looks at how practice, training, cognitive abilities,the environment and other factors affect skill development. She's currently studying how AI may affectlearning and performance, and she recently spoke with APA's magazine Monitor on Psychology foran article on the topic. Dr. McNamara, thank you for joining me today. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.I mentioned in the introduction that people have worried about losing skills to technology before.
02:05Can you talk about that? I mean, how have we offloaded certain tests to technology and is AI in any waydifferent from these previous technologies? Sure. We've been offloading to technology, even things that wedon't think of as technology for quite a long time. So back in 370 Bs,Pledo lamented that we would lose our memories and those skills because we suddenly had writingand that people would then just start using writing and not work on the great memorization that a lot ofpeople had where they would learn stories that could go on for days. And he's not wrong, right?We did lose those skills, but we're okay with them because most of the time we do have access tojotting down ideas.
02:53And this, of course, has gone through the times where we have lost some of these skills.Depending on the age of the listener, you might remember knowing a lot of phone numbers when you were a kid.Right.And we don't know too many phone numbers these days.But that's something that we're just sort of willing to be okay with that we've lost that.You mentioned GPS.A lot of people, at least anecdotally, don't think that they have the same spatial navigation skills.or will sort of develop a good mental map as quickly as they used to without.
03:29But again, we usually have access to it.So these are all skills that have indeed, at least for a lot of people, maybe have reduced or atrophied,but generally as a society, we're okay with it.That said, whenever a new technology comes around, there is kind of this panic.So Orban defined it as the Sisyphian cycle of technology.panics. So we're in a state now. So not too long ago, it was the internet and Google. There was afamous article is Google making us stupid. And we're sort of living through the end of one cycle,potentially and moving on into a new one. And the issue is that technology moves pretty quickly,
04:13and science can move less quickly, at least psychological experiments. So how this affects us,we can be a bit behind on knowing how much it affects us.But if we think of skills and knowledge acquisition as use it or lose it,or of course to learn a skill, we have to engage with it.If we are cognitively offloading to something elseand we're not engaging in the same way,then there's a good chance that we're not learning the skillas deeply as we would if we didn't have that technology.
04:49Do we know yet whether we're losingskills to AI, especially in the workplace, or is it still too early to know?Well, it's certainly too early to know. We are in the stage where there's early experimentsthat are starting to come out. Of course, we don't know what will replicate, what will changeas the technology changes. But there is some information out there that is potentiallyconcerning. So, for example, there was a study with endoscopists whereat a hospital an AI tool was implemented where they had random access to it in terms of beingable to detect adenomas, so polyps. And if you look at their detection rate before the AI
05:38was implemented, and then this randomly, when it was taken away, their detection rates fell. Soit suggests that they potentially lost some of that skill and how well they could detect without,the AI available, that they've gotten used to the AI being available.There was another study that found that medical professional skills, like basic life support,decayed when people didn't use them. And this was roughly decayed by about 50%, so 40 to 60%,after six months of disuse. So if we are offloading to AI and not really using these skills to the samedegree, there's a good chance that those skills will decay.So speaking of whether Google makes us stupid, I mean, that's an interesting article and
06:28actually dates to 2008. And of course, the author wrote about this lack of attention span,that he couldn't read a whole book anymore the way that he used to. And I'm just wonderingif this is the kind of thing that we should fear with AI as well. I mean, are there things thatwe can do to keep those skills sharp? Sure. So,Cognitive offloading isn't kind of an on-off switch. So it depends on how we're engaging with the AItool and how much of the work we're cognitively offloading. For example, if someone istrying to learn a new skill, but in that process, they're really just asking AI for the answerevery time. They'll get some exposure. They'll probably learn a little bit, but not as much as if
07:14they were trying to engage in what are called desirable difficulties, right? So ifthey are trying to generate the answer themselves or test themselves, what's called retrievalpractice, to try to remember the answers. They'll learn the skill better that way. So if theycompletely offload, probably they won't learn that new skill to the same degree as if theydidn't have the tool. But there are other cases where you could use the AI to check youranswer or give you examples, ways where you're interacting and engaging and you're not just completelyoffloading all of the cognitive work, where you really are using it as a support system. In whichcase, there's evidence out there that suggests in some case you do better if you have that AI support,
08:02or in some cases you're at least not doing as poorly as if you are completely cognitively offloading.So it really depends on how we're using it.Are there other tips and tricks? I mean, because some AI will basically not only give you the answer when you ask a question, then it will ask you if you want to know these five other things. I mean, maybe you as the users should be thinking of what you need and not relying on AI to tell you. And here's the next question you should ask me.Right, right. So there's always the question of are we losing critical thinking skills by offloading that part to AI.And there's evidence that maybe we are.Interestingly, since we were just talking about Google and people having concerns about it, now there's been studies comparing Googling things to using AI.And in those cases, so well, this is a study, I guess I should say.We don't have a lot of data yet.
09:03Actually, it was one paper of multiple studies where people were asked to learn about something.and then give advice to a friend on the topic.So how to plant a vegetable garden, how to live a healthy lifestyle.And either they Googled information on a few pages and then synthesized it themselves andthen gave that advice, or they used AI, which of course synthesized it for them.And what they found is that for those who used AI, the advice they gave was briefer,it was less unique to the person, and it was rated as less helpful than it.if they used Google. And the idea is that AI was sort of doing that cognitive work for you. You put in
09:49less effort and you weren't having to synthesize that information yourself. You weren't having to go in,read multiple tabs, think about how it all works together and then produce that advice. It was justgiven to you. And therefore, it was less interesting and the person didn't seem to learn as much.It sounds like the good old days of the World Book Encyclopedia where that was all we had and you would have to go in and read it and synthesize it yourself.So what you're saying is doing a little bit more of the work yourself is advisable at this point if you want to stay sharp.Certainly that's some advice.Now, of course, nobody is suggesting that you give up on computers and the Internet and go back to the library and having to pull up each encyclopedia at a time, right?Nobody wants to live that way because there's a lot of benefits, of course, to technology.
10:41So Google is much faster. It is at your fingertips. So it's more about, right, how you're engagingwith the technology and how much you're offloading. But yes, absolutely. I think the more that youengage with the skill yourself, test yourself on how well you know the information or can perform thetask without AI is important because there's also the possibility that we are overcomeconfident in our skills with AI. So if you're engaging with the task with AI, probably your performanceis better than if you weren't using AI. But if that AI is taken away, what is your skill level?But because you've been performing the task at a very high level, it's possible that you'remistaking your competency for what is essentially your competency plus the AI's competency. So it might
11:33be good also to test your skills without it to see what your actual competency is. And this is somethingdone, so for example, autopilot, which of course is not AI. It's an automation. In other words,if you have the same environment, it'll do the same thing every time, which of course is differentfrom AI, which is learning and adapting and making decisions that were previously the domain of theexpert alone. But in aviation, autopilot, the FAA is concerned that,pilots' skills are atrophying, that they're not performing as well. And so there's strongrecommendations that pilots go through an entire flight using manual control because they'reconcerned that those skills are being lost. Well, now we're talking a little bit about
12:19expertise here, and I know you studied that. How might using AI affect novices like medicalresidents differently from experts like experienced surgeons? Right. There's, again,limited evidence, but some evidence to suggest that these are different processes. So this is outside ofthe workplace, but for example, there was a study looking at using AI to learn math. And so if you'relearning a new skill, or even with calculators, going back even sort of more basic, with calculators,if a kid is learning a new math skill, but with a calculator, they tend to not learn itas well, as if they needed to try to generate the answer themselves and then use the calculator as acheck. But for kids who already had those math skills and then used a calculator, it didn't matter.
13:16It didn't affect those skills. Now, long term, if the study had looked for a very long time with thoseskills, have atrophied in the kids, possibly. So in the workplace, there's the idea of, okay,what's happening during training, where you're learning a new skill,and then once you've already hit a level of expertise,but now you're just relying on the AI, do your skills decay.So there's a bit of evidence for both of those.It's likely the case that if you know a skill really well,it's going to take much longer for the skill to decay to have that disuse.
13:55We have that study that I mentioned that after about six months of disuse,that those skills start to decay by about 50%.Now, that's complete disuse.Using the AI and cognitively offloading isn't complete disuse.So it's probably a bit slower than that.But I think it's something that we still need to be concerned about.If someone's skills are starting to decline because they're relying on AI,will they even notice it?
14:19I mean, is it obvious to people that they're leaning on AIand they don't really know what they're doing themselves?Quite possibly they would be completely unaware of it.It's going to depend on how they're using the AI, most likely.But absolutely, if the AI is sort of picking up the slack, so to speak, at every turn,and keeping that inside a black box so that they don't even know that it's happening,absolutely, we could be caught unaware, which could potentially be an issue in, say,cases in medicine where not only maybe the AI is not available or gets updated and it's different
14:59and you don't know how to use it.So you're a surgeon using a robot,and this is a bit more in the futurebecause the AI isn't really set in there,but that's a goal in terms of the future of work.So now the AI isn't working.Can you still perform the surgery?So there's that aspect that we need to be concerned about.
15:19I'm just wondering,since you're studying AI in professionsthat include things like elite sports,how does AI influence somebodywho is an elite athlete athlete?I mean, you still have to perform if that's what you do. So what is AI doing for you and are youactually offloading anything to AI when you are an athlete? There is probably less that you'reoffloading. There could be decisions that you're making or learning or skills, but you're going to
15:48essentially be forced to test yourself without AI present. As of now, there's not, you know,AI and a racket for a tennis player to be told at the moment like, no, go for the spin.They're about to do this.So I think for now at least probably that's pretty safe as opposed to, again, going back tomedicine where not only maybe the AI is unavailable, but maybe the AI is available, butwe get, say, a novel coronavirus.And so we don't have the data needed for machine learning.for AI to be able to make decisions. We want to make sure that our medical professionals
16:30can still reason and think through information in those cases where the AI isn't going to beavailable for a different reason. We're going to take a short break. When we return, I'll talkwith Dr. McNamara about how to use AI at work and still keep your skills sharp. For listenerswho are already using AI in the workplace, what should they keep in?mind to make sure that they're using it in a way that still keeps their skills sharp?I think that it would be good to make decisions that are well-informed. So if this is a skillthat you don't care about, then don't worry about it, right? So if it's, for example,you want to spend your time coming up with a new business idea, but you don't want to
17:22program the budget, for example, you know, come up with the budget. Yeah, maybe using AI for thatwhile you spend your cognitive resources on something else, that might be a good use for you.So it depends on what skills you want to make sure that you maintain. If you want to learn a newskill or you want to make sure that you maintain a new skill, then really thinking about how youuse the AI. And I think this is important in the workplace in particular, because the short-termbenefits are always going to lead to saying use the AI. Because in the immediate, the short-term effects are,it's probably you're going to get a better result, is probably going to be more efficient,it's going to be less effortful. But long-term, if that's a skill that you don't want to use,
18:13then maybe think about not using AI every time, testing your skills without AI, or using it in a way whereyou are generating first and then asking for feedback, where you are interrogating the promptsthat you're giving it and the responses that it's giving you, or asking it to fill in gaps that you'remissing and the next time try to do it without the AI providing you those cues and see if you can do it.What are you seeing out there as you do research? I mean, our workplaces thinking along these lines as theyimplement AI procedures at jobs? I think they are. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of variabilityand some places probably are thinking about it more or less. And of course, people are usingAI in all sorts of very different ways from creative endeavors to, you know, sort of more
19:08procedural endeavors. So, for example, one way that it's being used is in radiology.In radiology, a lot of systems either have just a computer-assisted,device or it is true AI that's helping find abnormalities in an image. Now, it's always the recommendationthat radiologists first try to find the abnormalities themselves and then click the button tosee what the system says it's there. But again, we don't really know what they're doing. So ifthey really don't feel like putting in the effort or they're less concerned about their skills,they might just be clicking that buttonand then hopefully at least checking the work.
19:54And again, immediate reward is that it's less time.They're going to be more efficientand probably have a high success ratein terms of detection.Long term, we want to worry about their skillsand making sure that they could still do thiswithout the AI.Because AIs are not perfect.
20:13They are fallible and people are fallible.But if we start leaning too much on the AIare forgetting about its fallibility,then we're not putting that shared cognition together.So we have the human intelligence,we have the artificial intelligence.And the idea is if we look first,we're more likely to find something
20:33that maybe the AI is going to miss.But if we just look at what the AI says,we might not see what we would have caught before.So there's that concern.And people very much differ in how much they are biasedtowards leaning on an AI versus not.So there's some people who get complacent when an AI is available.There's some work that suggests, and this is in aviation and automation in general,
21:01that once a system is about 70% accurate, people tend to just rely on it.And 70% is still leaving a lot on the table.Some people argue that AI is going to free people from a lot of routine work,what I call the tricky track that you don't want to do so that you can focus more on creative anddifficult tasks. So do you think that AI is going to lead more to upskilling than to deskilling?Absolutely in some ways. It's hard to say what that proportion or ratio is, what is going to bemore upskilling compared to less deskilling. Certainly it's going to be the case that people willbe able to not spend their time on the TDM and might be able to learn new.
21:48skills that they're more interested in. It's also probably going to be the case that people willlose skills. And as a society, we might be okay with losing those skills. Which one is going tobe greater is hard to know. We certainly hope as a society moving forward that it's going to begreater the upskilling than the deskilling. But it's a bit early to tell. Would you come down moreon the optimistic side or the pessimistic side based on where we are right now?Well, I think we're going to end up doing both. Lots of things will improve as usually as the case when we have a new technology. We will certainly lose some skills that as a society we might be okay with losing or as an individual, we might be okay losing. What's interesting about AI is some people would say that the argument is it's just another step in technology and it's not really anything special and we'll move forward.in the way that we havewith all of these other new technologies.
22:50Then others would argue that there is something different about AIthat unlike other technologies,it's taking components of our cognitive processesthat were just not available before,where it is making potentially decisions,expert-level decisions,that we wouldn't have off-floated before that we are now.So there's not only the deskilling concern and the skill decay concern, but there is the overconfidence
23:25concern.There's a concern that maybe we will generally start expecting kind of immediate results more,not wanting to persist as much.There's been a little bit of work already in this space.This is from a pre-print, so of course you have to be careful with that because it hasn'tbeen peer reviewed yet. But across multiple studies, they noted that when they were trying to learna new problem-solving skill, and they used AI, and they got the answer, and then when it was taken away,people just gave up a lot more quickly. They got used to getting this immediate result,
24:01and it just wasn't worth it anymore to put forth the effort. And so there's concerns that thiscould then spread and be broader. Now, the research is sort of all over the place in terms of whetheryou try to encourage people to put forth more effort in a task, whether that has far transfer,whether people start persisting more generally. So there's some research that suggests, yes,some says, no, that's not really the case. But the idea is whenever we think that something mightimprove with an intervention, well, then it might be the same thing, that if we have thisintervention in this case, AI, and we're not using a cognitive process.then it might get worse.
24:45So kind of the opposite of what we usually think of in an intervention.So it's hard to know whether it'll change expectations or habits in terms of diligenceand industriousness and persistence and things like that, which is a concern.And maybe that's been a concern with past technologies and there's nothing different here,but these are the current concerns that we're thinking about.do you use AI in the work that you do? I mean, does it assist you in your research or check your, you know, your math for you? Oh, okay. So no, I don't use AI at all. I mean, other than, of course, there's there's parts that you can't get away from. So now you use Google and an AI synopsis comes up. And so I will look at that and I do try to click on the link and actually double check it. I ignore the, the, that you know, the, you know, thatemail that tries to, you know, you're responding to an email and it tries to finish your sentencefor you. I generally say, hey, stop that and do it myself. So no, I'm probably one of the few people
25:54studying AI and not using AI. Perhaps as somebody who studies skills and performance and offloading,I'm sort of just not willing to offload at this point. That mightchange, I might just be, you know. Resisting the inevitable. Right, exactly, exactly. So we'll see.But I don't want to come across as just sort of anti any kind of new technology because I thinkthere are absolutely benefits that come with it. What are you working on now? What are the bigquestions that you're trying to answer? So one of the questions that I'm working on with colleaguesfrom computer science and medicine and robotics is looking at AI skill development, particularlyin radiology and surgical robotics, skilled maintenance in those areas. So do we see skill decay?
26:52And then overconfidence. So we've been collecting data on that for about a year. We're gettingclose. And it's still preliminary at this case. So I don't want to get into results.it might be potentially the case that we should have some concerns about AI in terms of ourconfidence and our learning. So that's something that I've been working on with AI. And then withEvan Riscoe, who studies cognitive offloading, we're planning a series of studies to look more atsome of these studies that have come out and looking at, you know, longer scales of skill acquisition,other ways that cognitive offloading might change how people interact with AI.So just sort of joining what a lot of people are studying this topic at this point.
27:43It's just that there's lots of new studies coming out.But even though I say lots, we're so new.It's just these one-off studies on this one topic here and there,that we're getting to where we really have a broader knowledge base about it,but we're not there yet.Anything you want our listeners to know that I didn't get around toasking you? Sure. One thing that Evan Riscoe and I have been talking about and some of his colleaguesis the likely difference in effects of using AI on skills and knowledge versus basic cognitive
28:22abilities. So skills and knowledge are both acquired primarily through practice, through experience,right? There's some kind of innate knowledge, but for the most part, when we acquire knowledge,we have to have some sort of experience where we learn it. And likewise with skills, we're notborn knowing how to play chess, for example. We need to practice that. Now, it's not thatthat is 100% of it. People vary in how quickly they learn, for example. So it's not that practiceexplains 100% of our skills. But,it does explain, for the most part, changes within a person. So if I practice the piano,tomorrow, I'm probably going to be a little bit better than I was today, and so on. So there's
29:12skills and knowledge are very sensitive to our experiences and therefore potentially howmuch we're offloading. Basic cognitive abilities or fundamental cognitive abilities,foundational abilities, again, these are not perfect distinctions. And of course,There's bleeding into skills and abilities.But broadly speaking, abilities are kind of more stable, sort of your reasoning ability,your working memory capacities, sort of how much information you hold in your mind.And of course, there's development as kids.And of course, there's declines at older age.
29:54But broadly, there have been a lot of interventions trying to improve basic cognitiveof abilities. And while at first some of those studies looked promising, usually it's the case thatthey were unable to have far transfer, right? So we have people do a task that's designed to increasetheir working memory capacity, and then we see if they're better on an intelligence test. And it'sreally hard to find that far transfer. So it suggests that we're fairly insensitive to ourexperiences with those cognitive abilities. So for a lot of people, that was bad news, right? For a lot of people,we wanted to get smarter by doing brain training. And that seemed like a great thing to do.The promising side of this, of course, is that if these abilities are fairly insensitive to experience,
30:52then we probably don't have to worry as much about our intelligence getting worse with AI. Because ifIt's insensitive, more insensitive to experiences.It's probably not going to be the case that we use AI and now we just can't think anymore.So skills and knowledge acquisition, much more sensitive to experience and probably much more sensitiveto how we use AI in terms of maintaining and acquiring.But basic cognitive abilities we might be a little bit safer about.Well, sounds like we need to talk again in another year or two.how things are going. Absolutely. Yes, I'll give the caveat that all of this is new. I could be
31:35completely wrong about everything that I'm saying. Well, I doubt that, but I want to thank youfor joining me, Dr. McMur. This has been very interesting. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.You can find previous episodes of Speaking of Psychology on our website at speakingofpsychology.orgor on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you've heard,please subscribe and leave us a review.If you have comments or ideas for future podcasts,you can email us at speaking of psychology at APA.org.Speaking of psychology is produced by Lee Weinerman.
32:12Thank you for listening.The American Psychological Association.I'm Kim Mills.
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