Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Self-Help Without Other People Is Just Selfish — and Here's the Science to Prove It | Dan Harris

Episode Date: August 7, 2026

Dan doesn't usually sit in the interviewee's chair — but when journalist and author Allison Gilbert invited him to speak at the 92nd Street Y as part of their Connected Lives series, he said yes. What followed was one of the more wide-ranging conversations Dan has had about his own practice, his own anxieties, and why he's become convinced that inner work divorced from relationships is just selfishness dressed up as self-care. The evening also included a guided loving-kindness meditation — metta practice — that Dan led live with the audience. They talked about: Why Dan thinks the meditation world's PR problem has shifted — it's no longer "this is weird hippie stuff," it's "I get it, but I personally can't do it" The upward spiral: how taking care of your mind improves your relationships, which improves your inner weather, which improves your relationships further — and the "toilet vortex" that runs in the opposite direction Free-range mindfulness: why brushing your teeth or standing in a grocery line can rewire your brain just like formal seated practice The self-compassion toolkit — Kristin Neff's three-step practice, distanced self-talk, and why putting your hand on your heart is "cheesy as f*ck" but actually works Joseph Goldstein's single best question for breaking an anxiety loop: "Is this useful?" Why micro-interactions — with your doorman, your barista, a stranger on the elevator — are one of the most underrated sources of happiness Allison Gilbert is a journalist, author, and co-author of The Joy of Connections. She's also designed an app to help people deepen the relationships they already have. She writes and speaks about human connection, grief, and resilience. Learn more at BeingMoreConnected.com. Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here Follow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTok Subscribe to our YouTube Channel Additional Resources:  Check out Allison's new app at beingmoreconnected.com This episode is sponsored by: Notion: Learn more about how Notion can support your business, at notion.com/happier. To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Hello, my fellow suffering beings. Welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. Normally on this show, given that I'm the host, I ask a bunch of questions of some smart guest. Today, though, I'm on the receiving end of the questions. What you're about to hear is an event that was recorded live at the 92nd Street, why?

I was interviewed by the journalist Alison Gilbert. We talk about why meditation still has a PR problem, why self-help without thinking about other people is just selfish, how I personally cope with my panic disorder, and sometimes take stairs instead of the elevator. The case for loving kindness practice, even though it can feel a little cheesy, I sometimes describe it as being like Valentine's Day with a gun to your head, and why and how I used ChachyPT to help me get a really important recent medical diagnosis. So a lot here, and I think you're going to enjoy it a little bit more before we dive in on Alison Gilbert, who is the one asking the questions. She runs a series of events at the 92nd Street Y, which is an incredible institution in New York City. It's called the Connected Lives series, so it's an occasional series of events she does. She also is an app called More Connected that helps you feel less isolated, build stronger friendships, etc., etc.

you can get that app by visiting Being More Connected.com. Thank you guys for coming, and thank you, Dan Harris. Thanks for having me. I am just a kid in a candy store, truly. I am so thrilled that you're here, and I want to start with some congratulations for you. Thanks. I don't even know where you're going to graduate before. Well, it's 10 years of your podcast.

Yes, yes, yes. And I just, amazing. It's amazing. and the other person who had something to say, and we have to acknowledge her here, is Dr. Ruth Westheimer, because we are here in honor of her. And I was thinking about preparing to interview you tonight.

So I was thinking, what does Dan Harris and Dr. Ruth Westheimer have in common? And so I came up with two things. One is that she was a straight shooter. And if you have read Dan's books, if you listen to his podcast, you know that you don't mince words. You're very, very straightforward. And that she changed, of course, the conversation about sex. And what I think that you do, what I think you do so well is that you're changing the conversation about meditation.

And you have said it has a massive PR problem. What is the PR problem that meditation has that you have sought so successfully to change? But they get switched when I wrote, 10% happier 12 and a half years ago or I think maybe just 12 years ago, it was just considered fringe, hippie pursuit. And I was trying to argue, no, no, there's actually a lot of data to show that it can rewire key parts of your brain, help with anxiety and depression, make you more effective at work. I think that is no longer really the issue. I think most... Do you think because of your efforts? Do you think that you were helpful in that? Maybe I was helpful, but I do think that the primary engine for social acceptance of meditation

has been the science. I maybe gave it a little bit of airtime, which was helpful, but it really is the scientists who have changed the conversation. Where I think the problem now is that most people, I can't see you guys, but I'd be curious if I could see you to do a hand-raising exercise, which I won't make you do because I can't see you. But most people, I suspect, if I asked you who thinks meditation is good for you, most people would raise their hands. And if I said, who thinks they suck at meditation, most people would also raise their hands.

And that is the problem. People think it's good. I get it. It's good for you. But I can't do it. I can't clear my mind. And so I think most of what my job is on the planet now is to assure people that you don't have to clear your mind, as I often joke, clearing your mind is impossible unless

you're enlightened. or you've died, the goal of meditation is just to focus your mind for a few nanoseconds at a time, and then every time you get distracted, you start again and again and again. And it is that starting again. That is the practice. So the moment when you wake up from distraction, which is the moment when most people tell themselves a story that they're incapable of meditation, that is actually proof of success. because what happens when you notice that you've gotten carried away

is that you're getting any insight into how your mind works. In other words, I don't know if I'm allowed to do this at 92nd Street, why? Oh, do it, do it, do it. You see, oh, I'm fucking crazy, right? And that's helpful because when you see that, it doesn't own you as much, right? And that, you know, the more familiar you get with the voice in your head, with the internal chaos and cacophony, the less owned you are and yanked around by you are by all of the noise. And so that's what we're trying to do in meditation. And I think I think not enough people know that. You said something before that I want to just go back to just really quickly. You said the research shows that we know it's good for us. And yet there is a kind of headwind that makes us not want to try again. or attempt it for the first time.

It's like you know how to eat better. Like, sure, eat more kale, but it's really hard to do. You know, to exercise more, but it's kind of a pain. You don't want to do it. You're kind of lazy. Maybe it's just you're too busy. So I'm wondering what is that way of smoothing the path? That makes people more inclined to do it.

So there's the PR problem, which is, oh, I get it. It's good for me, but like, I can't do it. My mind is too busy, which I think we, We've just fully litigated. Then there's the practical problem, which is true of all habits, all healthy habits, which is, I don't have time for it, or I don't have the discipline. There is a large body of research on what it takes for humans to change their behavior. And the bad news is, it's hard. The good news is it's doable, but you just have to follow us some guidelines.

And this is, I'm speaking in generalizations. I'm actually one of those annoying people who can like decide I'm going to do something and then just do it, which makes me really, really frustrating to talk to. But for most people, it's very, very hard to establish a habit. And so then there are some guidelines. One is make it as easy as possible. Set the bar almost comically low. So with meditation, it might be one minute, daily,

And so one little rule is, one little rule is don't miss two days, but you don't have to do it every day. And if you start small like that, a couple of things happen. One is you start to get some momentum. Two, you start to have this story of I'm the type of person who meditates. And this is also true for exercise. With exercise, they often say if you're having trouble starting, just putting your running shoes by the door. or buying workout gear. Just these little steps and then you build on each step sequentially.

A couple of other little things that help piggybacking. So we all have habits that we're already doing. Hopefully brushing your teeth is a well-established habit. You can piggyback whatever new habit you want to adopt meditation, exercise on top of that. Well, you mentioned that in meditation for fidgety skeptics, the brushing your teeth or if you're at a, grocery store you're on the line. Maybe that's my example, not yours, but you could be out of

stoplight when you're driving. These micro moments can be really beneficial. Yes. That's slightly different, but true. So it is true on the one hand that you can use your existing habits to create to, you can draft off of them to create new ones. But it's also true that with meditation, there's new research showing that you can get most of the benefits of a formal seated practice from free-range versions of the practice. So just as you were saying, if you attempt to be mindful while you're brushing your teeth,

so what does it feel like as my arm and hand are moving, what are the sensations in my mouth, and then you notice when you get distracted and start again, that can rewire your prefrontal cortex where the part of the brain that's associated with the tension regulation just the way formal practice would. And so that's really helpful to know.

Same with standing online at the grocery store instead of checking your phone. If you're just mindful of what that seeing is happening, what's the temperature on my face right now, and then every time you get distracted, you start again. You can do this with washing the dishes. You can do this with having a conversation. You can do this with eating. And so this is really helpful to know because then you don't actually have to fold yourself into a pretzel on a cushion. I want to just zoom out just for a little bit. So we've gotten pretty in the weeds already,

and I want to just zoom out because we're here to talk about connections with other people, not just connection to ourselves. But here's the magic I feel in your work is that when we are more connected to ourselves, we are better in relationships to other people. And I want to go back to 2014, if you don't mind just for a second. That was a big year for you. That was the year that the year that the book came out 10% happier. It was the year that Alexander, your son, was born. And I'm just curious, he never knew the other version of Dan Harris. He's only known this guy here sitting with me today. Do you think you're a different dad today because of this practice than you might have been if you didn't find meditation so many years ago? Yeah, I kind of shudder to think, actually, about

what kind of dad I would have been. I'm not a perfect dad by any stretch, as Alexander likes to let me know. But I do, I have this tendency that I still work with to get angry. You know, I just have a temper. And this runs in my family. I had a grandfather, Robert Johnson, not the guy who made a deal with the devil.

but my mother's father, and he was a very cranky temperamental guy, and I have some of that in my system. And this practice, among others, really helps me ride it so that I don't act it out and lash out. And I think I would have been controlled by these angry urges in ways that I am not really now. yesterday in fact Alexander was talking to his friend I was driving Alexander

and his friend somewhere and they were talking about what it's like when their dads get angry and I said do I get angry much? He said no but when you do it's a little scary and I was like okay that I don't love that when I get angry it's a little scary

but the fact that it doesn't happen very often for me given my baseline is a huge achievement my father was very short tempered. And I remember when he started sketching and he took his sketchbook with him. So if he was getting annoyed online or something was taking too long, instead of having that be something that he would then lash out, he just started drawing. Sketching and drawing can actually be very powerful. I have panic disorder and it really shows up in enclosed spaces. I did not take the elevator tonight.

and airplanes can be very difficult for me. And drawing is, and I'm not even an artist, but drawing is very helpful. For those who are new to you tonight, if there's one person who is new to Dan Harris here, I do want to go back a little bit to the story, really, that puts you on this path. You know where this is going. but there were some words that you used to describe yourself in 10% Happier and some other interviews that I've read since then, of course, that you were snippy with colleagues, self-centered, smug, angry with producers.

You threw papers in the air when you were a cub reporter in Maine. I wrote this about myself. Yeah. And then here are things that I think many of us who are hard-charging in our careers can relate to. You are perpetually concerned with career advances. You were mindlessly ambitious, super hard charging at the expense of everything else. Who were you close to at that time? We're talking about relationships here.

How did all of that impact how you showed up in relationship to other humans at work and at home? At that period of time, I actually had a very warm group of friends. And I don't think they saw this version of me. So I think this version of me, it was corrosive to my work relationships, although I did have very close work relationships. But it could, that sort of headlong attitude, that super ambitious attitude could get in the way of my work relationships. I kind of quarantined my friend group and had, I don't think they were, none of them watched me on TV. So that it was a very separate little world. And I think that was a saving grace for me to have.

have close friendships that were unrelated to this massive stressor, which was work. I wonder if you were aware, likely you were, that when you were so willing to be vulnerable and authentic with what you were struggling with, that it would have such ripple effects. You admitted, which I think was against some of your friends, must have. advised you not to admit this publicly. You got involved with cocaine, ecstasy. Yeah. And then something happened on June 7, 2004, in front of 5 million people. What happened on that day? I had a panic attack. The back story is that I, some of you already know this, so I'll keep it quick. But I had spent a lot of time post-9-11 in war zones, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Pakistan, Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, that kind of thing.

and I came home, got depressed, didn't know I was depressed, and then started self-medicating with recreational drugs. I was not high on the air when I had a panic attack on Good Morning America, but it was a nut. After I had the panic attack, actually my mother was watching, and she called me and said, you had a panic attack. Well, she's a doctor. She's a doctor.

I was a doctor. She's retired now, playing a lot of bingo. and she got me into see a psychiatrist. And I actually didn't know what had caused it. And the psychiatrist asked a bunch of questions, and one of the questions was, do you do drugs? And I said, yes. And he, I often tell the story

where he kind of leaned back in his chair and gave me this shrinky look, which communicated the sentiment of, okay, asshole, mystery solved. And he explained that my, drug use was, even though I was not high on the air, my ambient drug use was enough to change my brain chemistry and make it more likely for me to freak out. So that was the time when I quit doing drugs, agreed to go see this guy once or twice a week. I think I saw him for a decade.

And it was that moment that kind of set me on the trail toward meditation. So this I find very interesting. So many of the meditation teachers that you see, speak about are Jewish. Yes. And we're here at the 92nd Street. Why? So there are a bunch of questions I have about this, and I think that you're going to be very okay with me chatting with you about. You mentioned your mom. She's not Jewish. Your dad is. You had a bar mitzvah because you wanted it, because other kids were having it in the Boston area, not because you were terribly religious at all. It was more of...

Wanted the money. Is there something about your childhood that you have... felt allowed you to be more open to the opportunities that you were beginning to feel meditation offered? Is there something about my childhood that made me sort of open to? More open to it, more willing to try. Was there anything that was, was there freedom in your home? There was freedom in my home, but actually everything about my childhood made me really skeptical about meditation because my parents were hippies and they had forced me to do yoga and I hated that. And I associated meditation as I think many did at this period of time with the new age.

And I also found a lot of the atmospherics around meditation to be intensely annoying all the like stories being shared instead of told and sacred spaces and a lot of this. And I, I just. That was a turnoff, actually, to you. Massive turnoff. And I don't think that kind of skepticism, I think it helped in telling the story, but it hurt me in my own personal development

because I was reflexively rejecting things for superficial reasons that, and the story of my contemplative career is just getting over myself and seeing how wrong I was time and time again. Well, some of the Jewish scholars that you were mentioned, Goldstein, Goldman, Cornfield, Salzburg. These are all wonderful scholars.

It's like a law firm. And then one is Joseph Goldstein. Yes. We just spent the weekend at our house. Who is Joseph Goldstein? How did he come into your life? And you've described him as a mensch. He's a mensch. He's incredible. Do you guys know who Joseph Goldstein is? Okay. He's amazing. He is turning 82 on one. Wednesday, and he is, my friend Jay, who's in the room, has semi-phacetiously described Joseph as the Pope of Western Buddhism. He's kind of like the one of, if not the most respected Western teachers

of the Dharma. And I got connected with him. We had two mutual friends. One of them is Sam Harris, the podcaster, who's, I'm not related to him, but he's a good friend, and he's close with Joseph. And then Dr. Mark Epstein, who's a writer. and psychiatrist here in New York City, who I befriended. And the two of them introduced me to Joseph. And we just really hit it off. This was in 2010. So quite a while ago.

And you went on a retreat. I went on a retreat with him. And, yeah, now we're just very close friends. And he's great friends with my son and my wife. And I had an experience on Thursday, actually, where I was telling the story backstage. I was in a very tense phone call with the editor of my next book, and we were fighting about what the title was going to be. I was really pissed, and I got off the phone, and I was like, sheet white,

and I went to talk to my wife, which is always the thing I do when I'm freaking out. And we talked a little bit, but then I had to step away because I had to go record a podcast. I'm sure that podcast is not going to turn out well. And then after I got out of the podcast, both Bianca and Joseph were there. And they said two things in concert. One, you need to take a clonopin, which is a great thing to hear from your meditation teacher. Small dose, small dose.

And two, we advise you to capitulate. And it was really helpful to have these two incredibly forceful figures in my life who get along like a house on fire, mostly in opposition to me. And just, you know, the fact that I have, that I can call Joseph Goldstein when I'm freaking out, which is not uncommon, I hate to say, is so valuable. And he is just such a thoughtful, funny, learned person. And you called him a scholar.

I would say, and he is that, you certainly weren't wrong. But he is more a, well, he's for sure a teacher. but I guess I think of him mostly as a practitioner. Since he was 20, maybe 21, so for 60 years, he has been, he has dedicated his life. He otherwise would have been a lawyer or an architect. He has brought this big brain to Buddhism and not just the study of Buddhism, but the practice of it. Three months a year, he's in silent meditation on retreat by himself. And you're about to go on another silent retreat, your longest one to date, yes?

Yes, not three months. I usually do 10 days a year with Joseph. He last year, peer pressure me into 14 days. But the point I'm trying to make is that what Joseph really is, is somebody who just loves this practice, engages with it deeply himself, has spent years of his life in silent meditation, on silent meditation retreats,

and loves to talk about it and help people upgrade their own minds. And so I'm the beneficiary of that, And what I've tried to do is to pass that along to as many other people as I can. Well, I was really lucky that he wasn't on a retreat when I reached out to him. So I emailed Joseph, and I wanted to get his thoughts on you. Do you have any more clonopin? So this is the first time you met. This is Joseph speaking.

I remember him sitting toward the back of the hall, asking questions that were half a challenge and half a sincere interest to understand. But what impressed me from the beginning was Dan's quick connection to the teachings and his dedication to the practice, even as he encountered all the difficulties of a first-time meditator. And you mentioned some of those difficulties, but I wonder if what are those difficulties that you personally encountered? Was it staying on task? You have mentioned it's important to come back daily, if not more so. You had a hard charging TV career. So where was your headwind most of the time? Well, there's nothing special about me in this regard. The problems that you have all experienced,

to the extent that you've meditated, I experienced those, just mind wandering, dealing with overwhelming emotions, the planning of a homicide, whatever, just like random thoughts and powerful emotions and, you know, on retreat, which you don't have to do in order to be a good meditator, but it can be a great thing to do. On retreat, a lot of boredom and loneliness. So just the stuff of an average human mind. But I was really convinced from the first time I sat down to meditate that this is not like hacky sack. You know, this is not like a hippie pastime. Although I actually read today that young people, non-hippies, are really getting into hacky-sac. I just knew from the first time I, in the summer of 2009, that I sat down to meditate,

I set an alarm on my Blackberry for five minutes, and I just knew right away, this is exercise for the brain. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah, I just had an unwavering commitment. since then, based on just personal interest and personal suffering, wanting to, I've had anxiety and depression since I was a little boy, often people say to me as they get to know me when I'm making friends, why, you're really anxious for a meditation guy, and I'm like, you have the causality wrong. This, I'm, my interest is really driven by my own tendency to, toward despair and fear. And over time, as those tendencies have gotten better, although they do come back, the motivation has switched toward wanting to help other people with their own anxiety and anger and anguish.

Well, you're going to help us here tonight. We may not have all the same haunts. We all have some haunts. They're just different haunts. And what I really appreciate about your work is that meditation doesn't look the same for everybody. Not only is it a different quantity of time that might work, you can go on a walking meditation. You can do a guided meditation where you're listening to the 10% happier app. You can do it on your own.

You like that plug. That was good. Available wherever you get your apps. You can do it that way. And one of the meditations that I particularly appreciate in light of this series connected lives, which I loved learning about from you, is that it puts you in place of relationships. So you're not alone, being completely internally focused. Just to step back, because you raised something earlier, and I don't think I gave it my full attention.

Okay. The interaction between inner work and how you are in the world, I just, this I think is an overlooked phenomenon. The way, and I'm responsible for this to a certain extent, the way meditation is often talked about is a solo pursuit and an internal exercise. But the point isn't, as Joseph's close friend and collaborator, Sharon Salzberg often says, the point is not to become a better meditator, it's to become a better person. And I don't think that is emphasized enough.

And again, I take responsibility for that. I think of... That's actually the reason why I was so happy that you said yes, because I see what you've just said. which is that by working on ourselves, that's actually why in the joy of connections, when Dr. Ruth, we were putting together the book, there are five components. And self came first. Yes. Self, working on yourself, being kind of more aware of your own actions and your behaviors.

Self is first. It helps set you up for deepening and nurturing and making better all the connections. Yes, but self-help without. thinking about other people is just selfish. And I think, and it's also just stupid, because we, if you think about evolution, we evolved to need other people. Right now, we're in a culture that militates against social connection at every turn through individualism and, of course, through technology. It is not a coincidence, in my opinion, that we are seeing unprecedented levels of anxiety, depression, suicide addiction, and loneliness.

So I'm all for self-help or self-care, but the point is to have more bandwidth to relate to other people more successfully, not in a finger-waggy, you should be a good person way, but because your relationships will dictate your happiness. This is an upward spiral that is available to all of us. Just to step back, I think most of us live in a downward spiral much of the time. are kicking our own asses, and that impacts our relationships. Because relationships are the most important variable in human flourishing, we feel even worse. Our relationships get even worse, and by a friend of mine calls this the toilet vortex.

There is this upward spiral where you take care of your own mind. That improves your relationships. Your inner weather gets even bombier. Your relationships improve even more, and up you go. And I'm not saying you, you, you, You will, and I certainly am not always on the upward spiral. I have my bad days. But you want to be like upward spiral ready.

And I think, and I actually think you can start on either side. Self taking care of your own mind is a great way to get access to the upward spiral. But you can also just start by being kind and generous with other people. That will make you feel good. Now, it's a tricky balance. because if you focus too much on yourself, your relationships will suffer. If you focus too much on other people,

you may forget yourself. The Tibetan Buddhists call that idiot compassion. So this is an art. Yes, yes, yes. And a science, actually, kind of at the same time. I think what I find so powerful is that it puts you instantly this compassion in community. Yes.

And we know, quoting other research, that when you say hello to the person making your coffee or when you pick up your dry cleaning and you take your aeropods out and you have a moment of humanity, it helps you feel in place that you belong to something larger than yourself, this compassion practice.

Yes. I was, for so much in my life, just so self-centered and just kind of in my own little rut and groove and pursuing my own agenda. And like there's a time in place for all that. I'm not trying to be overly self-critical. But I found that through doing high doses of this practice,

over the years, it has really just kind of like, my factory settings are at Frosty New Englander. And it's just warmed me up. And you're absolutely right. There's a ton of data that shows that these so-called micro-interactions. are a potent source of happiness. And when you ignore the possibility of just these tiny little moments of interaction

with the people you are encountering all day long, you're kind of like, metaphorically speaking, leaving money on the table, happiness-wise. And I think just being on the lookout for that is a really powerful little practice. And this underlying practice of meta can really prime you to do it. So when you blow past your doorman, you don't say hello.

Yes. When you don't engage at all, perhaps, with your Uber driver, does the opening up of that opportunity make you experience your world? Does it change your body? Does it change how you relate to yourself? Does it make you happy? Do it make you 10% happier? How does it make you feel inside?

And then how does it all kind of work together in this wonderful stew that you're telling us that we should embrace. I'll just tell you for me, it's just a much happier way to live. I'll give you a story. Because I have panic disorder, I am, you know, often kind of at other people's mercy, you know, or I need help, you know, and that's, I don't love being in that position. But having some more open, friendly attitude has allowed me to get some support in moments when I need it. And the little story on this tip, I was, I sometimes record my podcast at a

studio in New York City, mostly I record from home. And one day I was at the studio. It was my first time at this particular studio and I had all my luggage with me. And I was, I walked in the building and I looked at the elevator and it was very small elevator. And I just, it was, my mind was like, just not today. Like, I can't. do this today. And I was kind of just staring at the elevator for Lornelly, and I turned to the security guard and said, can I walk? And he was like 16 flights. And I said, can I walk? Can you just, would you take this up to the 16th floor? And he got up, put his jacket on and said, I'm going to ride with you. I'm going to hold your hand. And we rode to the 16th floor.

His name is Barry, B-A-R-I, is an immigrant from East Africa. And it worked, and I ride the elevator with him every time I go. And like that kind of openness has been a huge boon for me personally. I love that. Thank you for sharing that story. I want to switch gears just for a moment before I take these questions. One part of your work that I really do find to be so impactful is, and you hit on a little bit about the stories that we tell her.

You famously have said, you know, the voice in your head is an asshole. But here are some things that I think that people ruminate over. I will never find love. Everyone's career is awesome. I'll never catch up. I'm too fat. I'm too short. I'm too tall. I'm too ugly. I'm not enough. We all have that. gnawing at us. And how do we stop the asshole voice in our heads? How does this practice that you're talking about, nip that in the buds, you can then reorient your thinking and invest in your relationships that we were just talking about? I don't believe in silver bullets, but I think there are several modalities that you can bring to bear here. One is mindfulness where you just learned to spot that this is happening and not take it so seriously, but that is a slow process. Second, warming up your inner atmosphere through practices like meta can also help change how you relate to yourself, but I think the shortcut, the most powerful practice, is something called

self-compassion. It's invented by a woman named Kristen Neff was a psychological researcher at the University of Texas, I believe she should be considered a world historic figure for not only naming this inner capacity, but also developing practices that help you build it, and then studying the impact of these practices, and the results are incredible. So if you're in these, I'm unlovable, I don't like the way I look in the mirror, my career is shit, if you're in one of the, if you're in this kind of toilet vortex, She has this little practice that you don't need to sit on a cushion to do. You can do it right there in the moment.

One is, just notice it's happening. Not hard to do. Just notice. All right, yeah, I'm kicking my own ass. Two, and you can skip one and two. The third step is the most important. Two is just to bring to mind, like, this is normal. There's a lie we tell ourselves when we're in self-flagellation mode, which is,

I'm the only one with this problem. But mathematically, when you just consider it, millions of other people are dealing with whatever you're dealing with right now. The third step is just to talk to yourself the way you would talk to a good friend. We all have this capacity to be great friends, great mentors, great parents, great uncles and aunts. When somebody we love is having problems,

we know how to talk to them. And this is incredibly good news. Like, you can channel that capacity and direct it towards yourself. And there's a ton of research to show that it really works. Two things that the research shows will supercharge it. One, and I hate to say this, putting your hand on your heart, which is cheesy as fuck, will actually help. So I don't like to have see anybody, I don't like to have anybody see me doing it.

But, like, when I'm about to get on a plane, it's like, bro, you're good. Like, you're not going to, you're fine. Like, this is not a life or death situation. You're good. The other thing that really helps, and you just heard me do it, although I didn't name it, is talking to yourself with the third person, in the third person. So this is called distance self-talk. So using your own name or bro, dude, whatever, sweetie.

I don't use sweetie. I might do whatever works for you. This has been shown to really help the words land. So again, there's no silver bullet. These moments suck. And there's also a great question that Joseph recommended to you, if I remember this correctly, is this useful? Yeah, that's really helpful.

I love that one. This is a little bit more for sort of anxiety. When you are in the throes of worrying about something over and over, this actually Joseph was writing about the first time we met or describing it to you and I was on a meditation retreat with him and I was sitting in the back of the hall asking obnoxious questions. One of the obnoxious questions I asked was on the penultimate day of the retreat. He said something to the effect of you may find your mind ranging off to like the things you have to do

when you get home. Try to avoid that or try to be mindful of when it happens and don't go down that road. And I was like, well, dude, if I miss my first, flight, that has real consequences. Am I not correct to worry about that? And he said, sure. But on the 85th time, maybe ask yourself the question, is this useful? And that is so helpful for anxiety. These are some questions from the audience. So thank you for writing them so beautifully and legibly, I might add. How do you cope, Dan, when anxiety feels overwhelming? How do I what? How do you cope? when anxiety feels overwhelming.

Yeah. Look, I made the joke about clonopin earlier. But I do think for some of us, medication is really important. I'm very careful around a medication like clonopin, which can be viciously addictive. So I think you have to be, you want to be talking to your doctor and be very cautious about this type of stuff. But, you know, there's certain SSRIs or anti-anxiety, antidepressants can be really helpful for anxiety as well. So just talking to your doctor about the medical options, I think is a really smart move. As you will see, I'm going to list a bunch of things because I believe with anxiety,

you've got to pull every possible lever you can. The most powerful level I pull, and this was reflected in the story I told, about what happened on Thursday after my editor was mad at me is other people. There's a great expression. Never worry alone. And so when I have a problem, I talk to my wife. And if she's not available, I talk to Joseph or anybody who will fucking listen. Don't suffer in silence. Again, this is basic evolution. We got to. to the top of the food chain, not because we obviously don't have wings or talons or sharp

teeth. We got to the top of the food chain because of our ability to cooperate and collaborate. And so use that to your advantage. And notice how when you don't get that stuff, even if you're an introvert, you still need it, you just need less. When you don't get the appropriate amount of social interaction, you wither. Metta meditation, according to the ancient Buddhist texts, was developed as a kind of anti-anxiety medication by the Buddha, who had a bunch of monks practicing

in the remote forests, and they were freaked out by the local forest spirits, and he invented this practice as a way to counteract fear. I know you're going to like this next question, which is, The world is a tough place right now, and this all feels really self-indulgent. Yeah. And this feels like there are bigger issues.

Yeah. How do you want to deal with those issues from a place of anger and overwhelm and bitterness and hatred? Do you think that's the most effective way to deal with them? Go for it. Try it. See how it works. I, in my experience, don't think that's the best way to operate. I think the question is, is carving out this time for this type of practice, is that self-indulgent when the world is facing so many?

Like, should our time be used differently? I don't think it's mutually exclusive. I think taking five minutes, one minute to take care of your own mind so that you can respond to the many emergencies of the world more effectively is being a good citizen. I think there's, I often say, a geopolitical case for you to get your shit together. And the point of this is not so that you're often some self-indulgent bliss bubble. The point of this is so that you can engage, what Joseph Campbell says, engage joyfully in the sorrows of the world. That's the point here. And honestly, there's something really strange about what I'm about,

to say, when you're engaged in compassionate action, it's uplifting. There's something I find really annoying about the response to, and I see it myself, the response to the many, I mean, I'm worried about all the same things you're worried about, AI, the potential demise of our democracy, climate change, war on and on and on. But performative misery is not helping anyone.

Compassion, getting involved does two things. One, it absorbs your anxiety because it gives you a sense of agency. And two, it feels good, and that's okay. Miserable people don't tend to change the world for the better. happy, joyful, engaged, energetic people can make change. So this is the opposite of self-indulgent. I love that. And how young, there's a question about kids. How young is too young? Well, preschoolers can be taught these practices. I, as a parent, recommend caution with your own children. I think it's great if the teachers in the school are teaching it. But I find that children,

you may have noticed, are genetically engineered to reject any suggestion you might have for them. So I never try to get my son to meditate. My son travels with me all over the world to give speeches and stuff like that. He could give my speech. But he, actually, he's usually on his iPad while I'm giving my speech. But he, you know, I've never asked him to meditate. I, you know, I believe, what's the... Well, you don't want to be...

be a meditation bully? You don't want to be a bully. Also, there's a great cartoon in The New Yorker. Had two women having lunch. It depicted two women having lunch. And one of them says the other, I've been gluten-free for a week, and I'm already annoying. That can happen with meditation people. I did it to my wife. For many years, my wife didn't meditate because I was so annoying at the beginning. And so this can really be triply dangerous with kids. So I, I, I say, if you want a mindful kid, you've got to be a mindful parent. You've got to model for them the behavior you want to see. One off-topic question on this, because it's not about kids.

It's on topic, of course, for this whole discussion. But I was really pleasantly surprised with what you've just done on your app. You just ended sleep week. And we haven't talked about sleep in its impact on your ability to show up in relationships or to do this work that you're talking about. Why did you do Sleep Week on your app and why is sleep so important? People like sleep meditations and we wanted to give it to the answer. But of course, sleep is, as I often say, is like the apex predator of healthy habits. Like you, nothing works without sleep. Yeah. So, you know, meditation can be very helpful for sleep, but there are lots of other things you can do and we can get into if you want. I mean, I think a lot of people struggle with sleep. Is there one or two tips that you

want to share with us tonight? I think that's a big problem. I struggled with, I was diagnosed last year with the dumbest syndrome, dumbest sounding syndrome. You can have restless leg syndrome. So embarrassing. Anyway, it destroyed my life for 15 years. That's an overstatement. It degraded my life for 15 years. It was terrible. And you know who diagnosed it? A.I. I was complaining about it to doctors for years. They didn't pick it up, and I complained to chat GPT. Another person I never worry alone with when nobody else will listen to me. I'll talk to chat. And it picked it up. And so if you have restless leg syndrome, there are medical things you can do. But for average insomnia, a couple of things.

It helps to have a wind down routine. So mine is I do 15 minutes of walking meditation, take a hot shower, and in the hot shower, I list all the good things that happened that day, and then I get into bed. Keeping the room cool is very helpful. Part of the warm shower also gets your body temperature down afterwards when you're tallying off,

and then the cool room keeps your core temperature low. So sunlight first thing in the morning can be very helpful. And then I find a crucial hack is when you can't sleep using self-compassion, talking to yourself the way you would talk to a little kid. Actually, when I was a little kid and I would say to my dad, I can't sleep, he would say, bend over and run as fast as you can into the wall. So don't do that. But when I can't sleep, and I'm like, Yeah, that tells you a lot about how I develop my sense of humor. When I can't sleep and I'm perseverating, I'm like,

I'm making all these projections into how bad the next day is going to be. No, first of all, get out of bed. You don't want to teach the brain that the bed is a place for struggle. So I get out of bed, read a book, watch TV, do some more meditation. And I just, I say to myself, look, you've had a million sleepless nights, and the next day has always been fine. You can handle this. Don't worry about it.

And that really, the combination of getting out of bed and talking myself off the ledge helps me fall back to sleep. Thank you for sharing that. I think when I go to sleep, when you say what are the good things that were in your day, I think this will be on my list now, Dan. Really, meeting you is just such an extraordinary gift. And I thank you so much.

I want to, towards the end, just to give you a little housekeeping. And then I do want to finish up with two surprises for Dan. The housekeeping piece is that after we are done here now, there is a reception as space allows for us to go to immediately afterward. The Joy of Connections, and of course, Dan books are for sale as well. We really hope that you get your books and get them signed and you're staying. Yes?

Yes. That's fantastic. And again, thank you. I do enjoy with connected lives getting to know the folks who I interview. And in doing that, I do enjoy reaching out to people who are close to you. And one of your dear friends is Bob Woodruff and Lee Woodruff. And Bob and Lee introduced you to your wife, Bianca. And Bob, for you who don't know him as a wonderful human and,

And he was also at ABC News for a long time. And you met him in Pakistan, I think, when you were overseas. I did. So he's known you before meditation and after. Which makes me dread this video or whatever it is. Yeah. I just have a quote from Bob. Okay, good, fine.

Better. So this is from Bob Woodruff. I never personally witnessed Dan being an asshole as he, describes himself. I always had a lot of fun with him, and he was a smart, good, supportive colleague, not always something that you find in TV. But in the TV world, especially with anchors like Dan, narcissism and ego are pretty common. Dan has become the kind of friend people listen to and want to be around. That's very kind.

He was quite, unfortunately, famous for having been hit by a bomb in Iraq, nearly died, very nearly died. And after the traumatic brain injury set me up with my wife, and as I was leaving the gym to go to my first date with Bianca in 2006, he called me and said, dude, she's hot. So speaking of Bianca, I did reach out to your wife. Okay. Do you know this? No.

Did she tell you? No. Oh, good, good, good, good, good. Okay. So this is from your wife. She did give me a big hug before I left the house and made me think, now thinking maybe she was buttering me up. Something's up.

Okay. It's hard to imagine someone more doggedly committed to self-improvement than you. The reality is that you never really needed this extensive of an overhaul. But I would be remiss to not acknowledge my good fortune as a direct beneficiary of a more expansive you. Importantly, your gift shows up outside of our home in the many ways you let humanity know that we are not a alone in our suffering and stories. With love and gratitude, your better half. And then she ends, because you still need to be kept on your toes.

Yes, yes. So on behalf of all of us, Dan Harris, I am so honored that you came, that you accepted my invitation. And can we all please thank Dan Harris. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Kashmir, is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go, if you enjoy this show, please do me slash us a solid.

Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform. You watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute. It's free, and it really helps new people find us and spread the good news that the mind is trainable. Thank you, sincerely. I mean it. Thank you.