The Ben Mulroney Show - Should AI developers be paid like NBA superstars?

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

- Tony Chapman - Richard Robertson/B'nai Brith If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠��⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: @benmulroneyshow Twitter: @benmulroneyshow TikTok: @benmulroneyshow Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a true story. It happened right here in my town. One night, 17 kids woke up, got out of bed, walked into the dark, and they never came back. I'm the director of Barbarian. A lot of people died in a lot of weird ways. We're not gonna find it in the news because the police covered everything all up. On August 8th... This is where the story really starts. weapons.

Welcome to the Ben Mulrooney show and we're gonna talk and we have a lot to talk about with our next guest but we're gonna start with Stephen Colbert and his long goodbye he's got about almost a year before he says goodbye to his show turns out that show was losing money hand over fist you would think a business decision like that makes sense if the show doesn't make any money you don't get to do the show anymore was there a lot of people lining up to say how this is wrong and egregious and to break it it all down, we're joined by Tony Chapman, the host of the award-winning podcast, Chatter That Matters, as well as founding partner

of Chatter AI. Tony, always great to see you. And thank you so much for coming to the studio. It's rare that I get to have these conversations in person. Perfect, great energy when we're in the studio. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so Stephen Colbert was told his show was losing $40 million a year.

He was making 16 or something like that. So that the economics of it just don't work anymore. And of course they're trying to sell CBS or Paramount's trying to offload CBS. So they're trying to make it as comfortable as possible for the feds to authorize it. Donald Trump does not like Stephen Colbert. So there could be an element of that in it.

I want, before I get your take on this, let's listen to what one star is saying. Here's Jamie Lee Curtis and her take on what this all means. It's bad. He's a great, great guy. They just cut NPR and, you know, public broadcasting. Yes, they're trying to silence people, but that won't work. Won't work. We will just get louder. Howard Bauchner Yeah, I don't know if this is an attempt to silence anybody. Stephen Colbert, still on social media, has one of the most robust social media followings that you can find.

So, it's not about silencing. And how do you see that? Stephen Colbert Well, listen, I think that if you just look as a silo as a television, you can make the financial argument. But why aren't they looking at this property like they'd look at Joe Rogan and say, across social media, across all the touch points, how do I monetize them? So I think it's partly an excuse, but the other thing is he's now a free agent.

And he should be looking at the Joe Rogans of the world saying, how can I monetize my reputation, my insight, my following? And the connections, he's so deeply connected. There's a whole ecosystem of stars and fans that would love to have interviews hosted by him. Yeah, so do the Howard Stern, Joe Rogan, and suddenly say instead of making 16 million,

I'm now worth $100 million a year. Tell me that Netflix wouldn't line up, Apple wouldn't line up, NPR to save themselves could line up. So there's a whole variety of people, crowd sourcing, there's a whole bunch of people that want him to say, and to me, he's now a free agent. I would say to CBS, you know what? I'm not going to go in a year, I'm going next month and I'm going to reinvent myself because you said he will have a lineup of guests, people will be fascinated with him, but he's got to come off the mark saying this is new and different. I don't like what Letterman,

this guest needs no introduction. I find that show very boring. But I think Colbert could come in with his unique style of humor and he could build, he could become another bedrock in this social media juggernaut. Look what you're doing with your podcast. I mean, you've taken what a radio station, every other radio host just says over radio, oh, by the way, it's available as a podcast. Your podcast or your YouTube channel is as big as your radio station. Take a feather from that book. I think Colbert could be a hundred million dollar brand almost overnight with the right management. Well, he's exceptionally talented, right? And I think he got lazy as the host of that show. I think he started doing what was expected of a show of a late night, like in that late night format. Back

when he was doing the Colbert report and he played that character, I thought his criticism of the right by playing sort of an archetype was far more biting and far funnier than anything he does on the late show. Yeah, because he's not limited to the boundaries and the status quo of the late show. So he is capable of it.

I've also seen some very emotional interviews that he's done when he talks about faith, when he talks about family. He's capable of real depth. And I think that show just made him lazy because, and also it was a bad business decision. He was making jokes incessantly that turned off more than half of his audience.

That's not a recipe for success in a world where you have to find a way to bring people into the tent, not marginalize half of them off the jump. Well, you can either be inclusive or exclusive, but you got to pick a lane and own it. I think you're framing it. He got lazy because he had a battery of writers. He showed up. He got his jokes done for him. He's got to recreate himself. I look at Howard Stern's reinvention from, you know, with porno and, you know, how much can I push, you know, to special radio to what he's doing now in terms of long-form interviewing? I think the guy's, it could be a goldmine, but again, he's got to pick a lane, he's got to own

it and come out strong, not just looking like this is my TV show now available on YouTube. Well, also one last thing, people forget like the idea, the word broadcasting, the word broad is in there. It's about appealing to as many people as you possibly can. He was narrow casting in a broadcast model and that doesn't work. If you want to be a narrow caster, then you have to have laser focus

and you have to be on a platform that allows for it. And CBS is not that. Yeah. And this is it. Are you a drift net, broadcasting to everybody or fly fishing to the people that really love you? Either way you can monetize, but again, pick your lane and own it. And that's a lesson for anybody, anybody's career or any brand. Stand for and stand out for something you believe as opposed to trying to be something for everybody. Okay. Let's talk about this one guy who was offered by Metta a $1.25 billion over 40-year position and he turned it down? Yeah. I mean. Okay. So, what was the job description?

So basically in the AI race, whoever wins, it's going to be a multi-trillionaire. Yeah. Everybody's competing. Think of this as Kentucky Derby. You've got Meta in there. You've got Apple in there. You've got OpenAI, a variety of different people in a horse race. The difference is the jockey. And the jockey is two or three handful of people in this world that really understand the next five moves on the chessboard with AI. And Meta is going out saying, I'm willing to pay 1.2 billion for you because it's going to do two things. It's going to get me in the lead and it's going to take the person that used to be

in the horse race out of the horse race. So who is this guy and what would his job have entailed? Is the job is entailing is to take AI, which is today really about collection of knowledge to the application of that knowledge. So the big change that's going to happen with AI is the ability to think and anticipate like a human being and to make the moves like a human being as opposed to just

being a tool for the human being. So think about the danger is it's going to take a lot of jobs away. The exciting thing for the people that are leading this charge is to say, we can do what humans do faster, better, and more efficient. That's what this guy's capable of doing. He's a grand master. So I was in a pitch meeting with a company, an AI company that I do work with, it's an education company, and they've created both a co-pilot for educators

as well as a co-pilot for the students. It's like a marketplace for students and tutors. And we were pitching it to a very big employer in Canada. And we were talking it to a very big employer in Canada. And we were talking about continuing education. And they pointed out that in this study that we did with a school in the United States, the application of this AI actually made the relevance of the human interaction even more.

They were working harder and they were having more interactions with students because of this AI component. So there is a place for AI to help increase the value of human interaction. Without question, and you look at the model of China and the United States start teaching AI at age five to our kids, Canada is resisting it. AI as a tool is going to be life-changing. If you don't use AI, you will not have a job. If you learn how to master AI, you're going to have an extraordinary job. You got to make that choice.

But it's not like the whole mass is going to go along. So what your education guys are doing is saying, how can I be a better student, personalize, gamify, get more passion, more interest going in that individual? AI can do that. Okay. Let's talk about this blending of Subway Canada and Happy Gilmore 2. So that movie's coming out on Netflix. A lot of us harken back to our childhood when the first one came out.

He does a Subway commercial in that. And Subway is really leaning into this, aren't they? They are. And so the original one, you know, he gets to become a bit famous golfer and he does that Subway ad and it's a big part of the movie. The key to branded content is you got to weave it into the storyline versus force it. The first time it just made sense. You know, it was a product that was accessible. I could get him doing it.

If they simply exploit it because the movie wants more attention or Subway wants more attention, it's like a lot of branded content I see. It really is a square peg in a round hole. I mean, it was done before. Can it be repeated? Will people remember the original Happy Gilmore? Did this Gilmore?

Well, there's different versions of it, right? I mean, there was a movie a few years ago with Vince Vaughn, at least 10 years ago called Interns, where these old guys who worked in sales ended up becoming interns at Google. And Google was the backdrop for the entire movie. And everything, it was an entire movie that was dedicated to branded content for Google.

It worked though, because it felt more real than had it been a fake Google. It was part of the storyline. Look at Lego. Lego creates an entire movie on it. Look at Barbie. You can do it. But when you're suddenly going, stop, I'm freezing in on that product and zeroing in, that's where it fails. All right. Well, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate it. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And just a reminder, you may, wherever you're listening to us, there's always another place to find us. If you're listening on the radio, you can listen to us as a podcast. If we're on the podcast, you can listen to us on a streaming app. Or you may want to find us on YouTube because you want to see what does this guy look like who's speaking to me so often? What does this Ben Mulroney look like? Well, you can find out on YouTube, or you can find us on all major social media platforms, Instagram, Twitter, and tik tok as well we're at Ben Mulroney show. And I like to say those are places where you can sort of test drive the show,

you can find a little a little one or two minute clip. And if you find that we scratch a particular itch of yours, you can like us, you can follow us, you can share our content, and then you can go find longer form versions of that clip. Wherever you find us though we appreciate your involvement we appreciate your investment we appreciate your time and your opinions so thank you very much. All right quick reminder we're right now we're going to talk about we're going to talk to a friend of mine the director of research and advocacy at Benet

Brith Canada and I want to let everybody know before this conversation goes, as in an effort of disclosure, I have a professional relationship as a national ambassador for Benet-Breath Canada. Richard Robertson, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me on, Ben. Okay, so a couple of things are true, information is power. And Jews in Toronto specifically,

but writ large in Canada tend to have to fend for themselves these days. So you put those two things together and you have the announcement that you made last week. Yes, Ben, so we have become or entered into a partnership with the Jewish Security Network, which was recently launched to provide physical security to Jewish infrastructure in the Greater Toronto area.

And thanks to Ben-Abris' long-standing expertise in monitoring, triaging, and responding to incidents of anti-Semitism, we will be able to assist them as an intelligence partner. So you're going to be feeding them information that you've been gathering and collecting through your partnerships, as well as your own internal expertise, so that they can then better adapt and respond to threats on the ground. Exactly, it's a natural extension of the work

that the neighborhood has been doing for decades. And what's the real shame here, Ben, is that this is even required in Canada, that the antisemitism has gotten to a point where we now need more resources beyond what law enforcement and beyond what our governmental stakeholders can provide us, that we have to go out and form these security networks in these partnerships. Yeah, give us a sense of who the Jewish Security Network is.

So it's a it's a group that has been designed to provide physical security to to to Jewish institutions around the GTA. They're operating a command center. They're receiving information from those institutions. They're monitoring what's happening, and that's how we, as an organization with demonstrable expertise in confronting antisemitism, are able to assist them to ensure that they're not missing anything, to ensure that when they're responding to confront the unprecedented crisis and anti-Semitism that we are witnessing. We can no longer rely on law enforcement. We can no longer rely on our government. We've had to take matters into our own hands and we've had to form these partnerships to ensure that our communities are safe and that they continue to thrive here in Canada. It's such an embarrassing failure that the Jews of the city of Toronto, but this is also, there are issues in cities across Canada. We're talking about Toronto specifically today.

It is a great shame that this city that views itself as welcoming to everybody has been so derelict in its responsibility towards caring for and protecting the Jewish people that they've had to do, they've had to go it alone And it produces mixed emotions Ben and on the one hand we are proud to partner with the JSN And we are proud to stand up to our for our community and to confront hate But on the other hand it really is the only word that comes to mind is a shame It's a shame that it has gotten to this point We've seen these types of security organizations

Established in Europe and in other parts of the world and the fact that now one is required here in Toronto that is it's an unbelievable fact to have the stomach. Yeah, as much as you can, Richard, pull back the veil and explain sort of the information gathering apparatus that B'Nai B'rith has excelled at. sort of the information gathering apparatus that B'Nai B'rith has excelled at. So as you know, Ben, we produce our annual audit of antisemitic incidents. In order to ensure that our audit of antisemitic incidents is as accurate as possible,

we have developed an expertise in tracking, in monitoring incidents of antisemitism, whether they occur online or in person. We are able to use our intelligence network that we've developed and the connections that we've made as a societal leader in fighting hate to ensure that we are well-apprised and well-informed whenever an incident of hate occurs. But more importantly, our team here is experts in assessing this, in assessing antisemitism, as it were, based

on the standards of best practice and based on Canada's definition of antisemitism. So we're really able to identify issues, to triage them as antisemitic, and then to better inform stakeholders, including the JSN, on how to properly confront these issues. So the JSN, more or less, and you tell me if I'm wrong here, but it seems like they are filling a void that the city has been unwilling to fill with, you know, actual police and first responders. Who makes up the JSN?

The JSN is a full-time employed staff who have expertise in security and who have expertise in crisis management and operations. So yes, they are failing avoid it. I don't wanna just put the blame on the city then. Our entire society, all stakeholders are responsible for the shortfalls that have led to the need for the establishment of the JSN and for a partnership between the

JSN and the neighbors Canada. But are there are there people at the city who are saying wait, hold on a second, you got to stay in your lane here. That's I is the JSN doing anything that the say the police may have an take issue with? Absolutely not the feedback that we as an organization whenever you know we assist in investigations or whenever we respond to incidents of antisemitism and I know it's the same for the JSN is that this

work is viewed favorably by the police. Admittedly they're the first ones to tell us they do not have the resources to manage the crisis of antisemitism and so they're very grateful to have our cooperation but it's the fact that we have this crisis and that this cooperation is needed to augment the police. That's the real problem. It's just, look, I keep going back to other incidents in the city of Toronto, like, you know, when proud Jewish mothers of their sons who had graduated medical school were not able to get jobs

in any of the Toronto hospitals because they were Jewish. Out of necessity, they founded Mount Sinai Hospital. And there's always an example of Jews being marginalized or being told you're going it alone. And that community always finds a way to take care of itself. It's the same playbook repeating itself. And that's been what this is in response to. It's that we cannot allow history to repeat itself. So the Jewish people have learned from the lessons of our past.

And now when we're confronted with a crisis of hatred, we tackle it head on. We build our own infrastructure. We form our own partnerships. we form our own partnerships, and if our society is going to let us down, then we are not going to fail. And what happens, Richard, if by some miracle, the city shows more leadership than they have before,

and if the laws on the books are beefed up in Ottawa, if the situation on the ground improves, what happens to this partnership? What happens to the JSN? And the JSN in our partnership with the JSN remains a utility for our community and for all of society. It's important to remember Ben, that the Neighborhood Canada is Canada's oldest human rights organization.

Our mandate is to fight hatred and racism. I hear that all the time. It's important to note that it is not a an organization devoted to fighting anti semitism. It's devoted to fighting hatred writ large, it just so happens that the the popular you know, the group representing 3% of the population is experiencing 40% of the hate, which means it occupies more time for by B'nai B'rith than we probably want to be spending on it. Richard, thank you so much for joining us and I'll see you at our next meeting.

Sounds good. Take care, Ben. All the best. Canada is best known for politeness, maple syrup and hockey. But beneath the surface lies something far darker. I'm Mike Brown and along with my co-host Matthew Stockton, we uncover the sinister side of Canada on the award-winning true crime podcast Dark Poutine. Each Monday we dive into chilling criminal cases, eerie historical events, strange disappearances and spine-tingling tales of the paranormal all with a uniquely Canadian twist. With over 300 episodes to binge for free, our stories reach far beyond Canada's borders drawing in curious minds from around the world.

If you're drawn to the dark, the mysterious, and the downright weird, it's time to join us. To explore the shadowy side of the true north, search for Dark Poutine. That's P-O-U-T-I-N-E on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you're listening right now.