The Daily Beast Podcast - ‘Anti-Woke’ Businessman Vivek Ramaswamy May Be The Next Big Right-Wing Star

Episode Date: February 14, 2023

On this week’s episode of The New Abnormal, Daniel Lippman, a reporter at Politico, tells us all about the ‘CEO of Anti Woke Inc.’, who has his eyes on the presidency. Plus, Dr. Peter Hotez, co-director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development, talks to us about the triple threat of illness, anti-science, and anti-Semitism. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What an excellent show we have today.

First we'll be joined by Dr. Peter Hotes, who's co-director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development. And he's going to talk to us about the triple threat of illness, anti-science, and anti-Semitism. Then we'll talk to Daniel Lipman, who's a reporter at Politico, and he's going to tell us all about the CEO of Antiook Ig, who has his eyes of the presidency. But first, let's have some fun. Danielle, it's a new week and possibly a new era for humanity because it appears that the aliens are here. Have you heard about this? I have.

And I don't understand why we're shooting down my ride off of this Godforsaken planet. But we've shot up, I guess, four quote-unquote of Marjorie Taylor Green spacecrafts. So it's fascinating. It's a little out of control here. And look, I don't think these are alien craft. I think they're weed drones. I think they are people trying to make drug deliveries. And I think that we have entered the 21st century when it comes to getting drugs from dealers to users.

I think it's a shame that they're being shot down. I'm not a fan of this. So you think it's Amazon deliveries. That's what you think that that this is. I think it's that style of thing. I think that's it's that style of thing. But I just think it's some forward-thinking weed dealers. I love this.

frankly, I remember when this was tested out the drone deliveries and I thought, wow, we're in black mirror. And so I don't know, but I was on TV the other day having to speculate for a good five to seven minutes on what it was. I thought that this was. And do we think that the Biden administration is being transparent? And I'm like, dude, we just found out that three Chinese balloons were just floating around during the Trump administration. And we just found that out. So I think the fact that we are being told that there are these unidentified objects that are being shot down, once they have more information, maybe they'll let us know, maybe they won't. But the fact is that they're taking care of them. So that's all I give a shit about. I don't know. Yeah. I mean,

there's two things here. One is seeing them shoot them down and watching the gummies just come plumbing to earth. It's just a sad sight. The serious thing I don't like about this is they keep asking, you know, you get reporters who they love to phrase questions, have you ruled out? So they keep asking like, you know, Pentagon generals and stuff like that, you know, have you ruled out the possibility that these are alien crafts? And the response is always going to be to that. We haven't ruled anything out yet because if they don't know anything, you can't rule anything out. They could say, have you ruled out that Danielle Moody launched these craft? I'm already on somebody's watch list, Andy. I don't need help. That's what I'm saying. Like, you're already a suspect.

And look, if they don't know where these things have come from yet, then they can't say they've ruled anything out. Then they can't say they've ruled you out. So the response is always going to be. We haven't ruled anything out yet. And then people are going to go, oh, my God, they haven't ruled out that these are alien craft. It's like, just, would you please take a step back

and take some of the gummies that are falling from the sky because you need to chill. I'm just curious, though. Last thought that I have is, if it was. Right? If they did suspect that it was a UFO, if they did suspect that it was aliens, do we really think anybody's telling us? Like, do we really think that this is going to be somebody's breaking news coming across, you know, cable news that the administration's going to say, you know, guys, we think that these are aliens. And that will be the vibe. I mean, they haven't been telling us since 1947. They've been making up lies about weather balloons while they do their experiments down in Roswell, New Mexico. So, no, they're not going to tell us. And instead, they're going to create things like cell phones and stuff like that that is clearly based on alien tech. And they're going to take all the credit and make all the money off of them because that's what governments do, Daniel. That's what the deep state does.

Thank you for connecting the dots, Andy. Thank you for connecting the dots. Absolutely. So speaking of aliens, we have a new alert from the U.S. Embassy in Moscow saying that America, who are currently in Russia see their aliens in that sense. That's that was by brilliant seg. But this is actually a serious story. They are saying that Americans in Russia should leave immediately because of the threat posed to them not by like riots in the street or anything like that, by actual Russian authorities. That's where the threats are coming from. The embassy talks about

the potential for harassment and the singling out of U.S. citizens for detention by Russian government security officials. So if you're an American and you're in Russia, I honestly, if that were me, I probably would have gotten out a long time ago. But if you're still there now and you're somehow listening to this on an underground radio or something, get out. Because it doesn't sound like you need to be in a country where the government itself is looking to do bad things to you. Yeah. I mean, when I saw that report, I'm very worried. You know, there are tons of Americans that work in Russia, that live in Russia. And we know that their government outwardly spies on everyone.

And so they know where the Americans are. And the thought of people being just picked up, wrongfully detained, harassed or worse by Russian authorities is really scary. But I don't know. Do they pick up everything if they've been there for the longest time, like outside of working in a U.S. embassy and just vacate? But it seems like it is a really dangerous time for Americans in that area. Yeah.

And look, I know it's easy for me to say I would have gotten out a long time ago, but we're not talking about people who are there on vacation. Right. You know, at this point, we're talking about people who are probably working there, maybe, you know, have their family there, whatever. And you're right. It's not easy to just say, I have to pick up my entire life and leave. But it does sound like it has now reached the point where that's the smart decision.

and your safety and your family safety is, I would think, more important than whatever job you have. At a certain point, you got to do the right thing. I mean, remember, we had to give up an arms dealer to get an athlete back. Right. So this is the kind of thing where if they decide that they want more arms dealers back or they, or they just want to fuck with America, they're not going to think twice about putting you in detention. if you live over there. And who the hell knows?

I mean, they're pressing people into military service there, just willy-nilly. And for all you know, you're going to end up being handed a rifle and a uniform and being shipped off to the Ukrainian front. You don't want that, I'm thinking. So, so, yeah, this is serious business. And it's not the kind of thing that gets issued every day. And when it does, it's for a good reason. So, yeah, the time is now it feels like. I know that it's important to get the Americans out to safety, but I also think in a very partisan way

that it is really important for Democrats to continue to connect the love that Republicans have and the Republican Party has for Putin. This is the kind of authoritarian regime that they want in the United States, that they could just pick up their political opponents on the street, that they could jail whomever they want whenever they want because they don't like them and say, as a reminder to the American people, this is why we are providing finance and equipment to the Ukrainian people so that they can continue to fight for democracy. Because what Putin wants is what he's able to do in Russia to be spread around the globe. And this is why we have to fight against it.

And those people who want to uplift and present his image as something that should be modeled after. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's always ironic because you have all these. people on the right who are always talking about how, well, the left is going to, they're going to put Christians in camps and they're going to do this and they're going to do that. And it's like, you literally are fans of, if not borderline, worshipping regimes that do that exact thing. Yep. That put people in camps whenever they feel like it. You don't see a lot of people on the left these days worshipping Stalin and things like that. I mean, yeah, you have the occasional

tankie and stuff like that. It's as far from the main. mainstream left as you could possibly get, whereas it is pretty much now like a sort of a mainstream thing on the right to worship people like Vladimir Putin and Victor Orban and people like that, who have that authoritarian bent to them and do like to lock up people or, you know, at the very least, silence people and at the very most kill people who they view as a threat to their regimes. So it's just we always talk about how anytime you get people on the same. the right talking about something evil about the left all they're doing is projecting and i think this is this fits under that category very well because this is the kind of thing that they support while at the

same time whining about how again like christians are going to be put in camps or forcibly re-educated and stuff like that and it's insane but that's the world we live in yes and speaking of re-education and the way that the right cares so much about children and you know the needs of children so In a Washington Post article, I can't believe that this is actually happening. But in a Washington Post article, they're talking about legislators in Iowa and Minnesota who introduced a bill in January, Andy, to loosen child labor laws. Specifically around the regulations around age and, you know, that pesky thing called, what is it? Ah, workplace safety. It's absolutely insane.

In Minnesota, they're talking about allowing 16 and 17-year-olds toward construction jobs, which, okay, look, I am sure there are 16- and 17-year-olds who can handle construction jobs. I don't know that it's the best idea in the world. But then in Iowa, they're talking about 14 and 15-year-olds working in meatpacking plants. We are in such a backwards period in this country,

like so many things that we thought were sort of vestiges of the past, are now back, front and center, whether it's cultural and social stuff. Mm-hmm. And now it's stuff like this. It's literal, like child labor laws. Like, this is one of maybe an early sign of an actual civilized society is that you get a majority of people who are like, yeah, we shouldn't have kids working in these really difficult physical jobs, but you'd be wrong.

Or we are not a civilized society, which I'm increasingly starting to believe might be the case, unfortunately. But it is just absolutely unbelievable that we're going this way. I also think it's a little ironic that they're talking about how we have too much employment. People can't find jobs. The unemployment is too low. And it's like, so now you want to have kids? Right. And I just like, I want people to understand this is the same political party that tells children that they don't know enough about themselves, that they are not mature enough to decide whether or not they want to get gender affirming health care, that they are not mature enough to be able to decide to go on birth control, that they're not mature enough to be able to decide what to do with their own bodies.

But at the same time, the same GOP comes out and says, oh, no, but your 14-year-old, 15-year-old can work in a meatpacking plant where, you know, people can lose fingers and arms and all of these different things or, you know, be around chemicals and their non-muring bodies, right? They're bodies that are not at mature level yet. But this is okay. What pisses me off is that I want Democrats to amplify this shit, to draw the comparisons and make it very clear. So on one hand, children who are under the age of 18 years old can't command autonomy over

their own bodies and they're not mature enough to be making these decisions. But on the same hand, your side, you're something. saying that they are mature enough to do adult job so long as we lower or minimize the workplace safety protections for them? Like, what the fuck? And it gets even worse than that because, like, for instance, in the Iowa proposal with the meat packing plants and all of that stuff, the bill would also expand the hours that teenagers can work during the school year. Remember, these are the people that are very concerned with what's being taught in schools and how their kids are being educated supposedly. They're just concerned with books. So long as kids,

can just work at a plant. Do we understand the dumbing down that is happening right now? Like the absolute and complete dumbing down of Americans. That's what they want. Right. No, that is the goal. And the other part of the Iowa bill is it would shield businesses from civil liability if a kid is sickened, injured, or killed on the job.

Like, are you fucking kidding me? That's what you want? It's just unreal to me. And then, you know, you brought up gender affirming care and birth control and all of that there's another fun Republican bill in Wyoming. Oh my God. There's a bill before the state legislature now that wants to raise the legal age for marriage to 18. And the Republican Party is opposed to this because minors are capable of bearing children before they are 16. They should have the option of getting married, quote unquote, for the sake of those children. Now they're

concerned that minors' constitutional rights are being violated. if they are not allowed to get married. And it's just the cognitive dissonance that they live with every day would make me jump out of a window. I want to scream, but people are listening with ear pods in, but I want to scream.

Like, I don't understand what the fuck is happening with Republicans right now. Is this one big ploy to just pump out white babies? Is this what white supremacy and patriots? is commanding of them to make sure that white girls are working at meatpacking plants, are not getting an education, can now marry at the age of 16 or 15 or whatever it is so that

they can bear children as many children as possible. Like what the fuck is happening? It's their constitutional right to be able to bear children, but not to be able to choose not to. Right? Like, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot on one hand say that kids, that, that, you know, that children are too young to be able to understand the concept of having like direct consciousness around the founding of this country or bodily autonomy and then on the other hand say oh no but here go get a job in a meat plant or an industrial freezer and go get married at 16 and get knocked up what the fuck it just sounds like to a lot of republicans the ideal state for a woman or in this case a girl would be to be 14 years old, married, pregnant, and working in a meatpacking plant.

That's their poster child. It's so awful and it's so scary that this is the future they want. And again, this was our past. This is the kind of shit that we read about in history books before there were things like child labor laws and before abortion was legal. Before you had women being basically forced into marriage. And they want to go back. to all of that and it's just it's so frightening that they've been mainstreamed in the republican party

they're not just wacko fringes like these are the people that you know even 20 30 years ago they would at least have the decency to go off to a compound somewhere and start a cult oh my god and it was still bad because they were forcing kids to do things that they shouldn't do but at least you could sort of deal with it like you could well hopefully not do what happened in waco But there were ways to deal with it. But now it's like it's spray. It's not just these little, these little weirdo cults in Montana and Idaho anymore. This is now becoming just mainstream Republican thought.

And it's how did we get here? I don't get it, Danielle. I don't know. But this is the beginning of the week and I already feel like we're in hell. I really need Democrats to sound the alarm on the world that Republicans are creating. because it's not about the future. Like, they are doing this right now. This is the fucking hunger games.

And it's one red state at a time. And people who live in blue states are going to think to themselves, oh, man, you know, well, I don't live in Wyoming. I don't live in Iowa. I don't live in these places. But they want to nationalize this shit, right? Like, they want to make this the norm.

This will send America so far fucking backwards to a new dark ages. And if we don't fight against what's happening and in these individualized states, It's right, we will be screwed come 2024 if a meatball DeSantis comes rolling through the White House. Meatball Ron. After my next guest's last appearance, I tweeted that I always love talking to him even though he always has bad news. And given that he's now here to tell us about the efforts for global vaccinations in a world of what he calls the triple threat of illness, anti-science, and anti-Semitism, I'm guessing today won't be any different.

Joining me now is the co-director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development and Dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine. Dr. Peter Hotez, Dr. Hotes, thank you for being here as always. Oh, thanks for having me. I'll see if I can find some silver linings in all of this. In this new paper that you have out, you write, because of rising anti-vaccine activism and some key global policy missteps, we risk eroding more than 70 years of global health. gains. This is occurring through an enabled and empowered anti-science ecosystem with anti-Semitism and the targeting of Jewish biomedical scientists at its core. Now, I am a mere lay person, but that all seems

bad to me. It's really disturbing news, and we've had an anti-vaccine movement throughout American history, but it's really accelerated about 25 years ago around phony bologna false claims that vaccines cause autism, and I spent a fair amount of time debunking that. because I'm a vaccine scientist and the pediatrician, and I also have a daughter with autism and actually wrote a book called Vaccines Did Not Cause Rachel's Autism, which kind of made me public enemy number one or two with anti-vaccine activists, but it gave me a front row seat to see what the anti-vaccine movement is all about. And what happened about 10 years ago, I think we were actually taking some of the wind out of their sales in terms of debunking all the phony autism

claims. But they regrouped under this banner of health freedom, medical freedom. And they basically said, hey, you can't tell us to do what we want to do with our kids. We started to see a rise and kids being opted out of routine childhood vaccinations like measles vaccine in states like where I am in Texas and Oklahoma and elsewhere. But it really took a very dark turn during the COVID-19 pandemic where my estimate in Texas is 40,000 Texans needlessly lost their lives during that terrible delta wave in the last half of 2021 and early 2022 because they refused a COVID vaccination despite fact the vaccines were over 90% protective against death and hospitalization at that time. So those 40,000 deaths were needless and around 200,000 Americans have lost their lives

overall, at least because of they were victims of all of this anti-vaccine activism or anti-vaccine anti-science aggression. And now unfortunately it's globally, So that same anti-vaccine activist rhetoric that you hear on Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingram at night on Fox News. And this has been well documented now by Media Matters and group out of the Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, which is like the MIT of Central Europe, have documented Fox News's role in this, as well as members of the House Freedom Caucus, spouting anti-vaccine, anti-science rhetoric. So really aggression from the far right, there's no other way to put it, because most of the people refusing vaccines, now it's been documented by the New York Times and Charles Gabba, the health analysts and others, mostly in conservative or red states and the redder of the county, the lower the vaccination rate greater the loss of life during the Delta and early Omicron waves. So that far right extremism that people lost their lives because they were victims of this is now contaminating Canada through the freedom convoy. It's in Western Europe and Germany or it's been linked to extremist groups there, even neo-Nazi groups. And now it's even contaminating low and middle-income countries.

So we're starting to see this U.S. style anti-vaccine activism now affect all vaccinations. And that's one of the big worries that I put out in the paper is that these COVID anti-vaccine groups that have been empowered and enabled during the time of COVID-19. If and when we get to the other side of COVID-19, they're not going to fold the tent and go home. Right. They're going to now go after all vaccinations. And so that was one of the alarm bells that I sounded in the paper. So I want to talk about, you know, you mentioned both the anti-science and the anti-Semitism in the paper. And you just spoke about the anti-science.

And so my question regarding the anti-science aspect of this is, how did we get here? You mentioned the autism, the well-debunked claims of vaccines causing autism. But in the paper, you go back to the 1970s and you talk about the eradication of smallpox, the near elimination of polio, both of those, thanks to vaccines that were enthusiastically supported by the vast majority of the public. And here we are 50 years later, and you always think, I think science advances and people's understanding of science advances, but somehow we've gone backwards in terms of believing in the science of vaccinations. How did that happen?

Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, these are some of the greatest slam dunk successes in all modern science, right? And not just eradicating smallpox and near elimination of polio, but cutting measles deaths down measles into the year 2000 killed half a million kids under the age of five. And now it's down under 100,000. So still a lot of kids, but extraordinary, right? And same with whooping cough, which is pertussis and tetanus and homophilinthiae, type B meningitis. I mean, victory after victory. And now it's eroding. And it's happening because for some, and this, you know, we really need smart political scientists to look at this. Somehow anti-vaccine activism and anti-science attitudes got adopted by far right groups and became sort of a plight. platform of the extremist element of the Republican Party. And it served two purposes. One, it gave new life to anti-vaccine groups who were losing steam because they were not as successful in convincing people that vaccines cause autism anymore because we debunk that. And so I think it empowered

anti-vaccine groups. They started getting PAC money, political action committee money here in Texas, to promote their anti-vaccine agenda. And I think for the far right, it provided a ready-made cohort of people that were now adherents. It's taken the most bizarre twist. You have the proud boys marching in anti-vaccine rallies. It makes absolutely no sense, right? I mean, you've got, you know, some of the, I think one of the first one or two arrests in the January 6th insurrection were actually a prominent anti-vaccine activists. So there is this very tight link. And, you know, what I say is, look, I don't care about your conservative views, even extreme conservative views, even your QAnon views. You know, that's your business. But as a biomedical scientist and pediatrician, I have to say, but don't pick up this one. Don't adopt this anti-vaccine anti-science piece because it's killing Americans and not by small numbers. I mean, you know, my 200,000 number that I come up with in my forthcoming book and others have confirmed it. The Kaiser Family Foundation has come up with similar numbers. And Charles Gabba, the health analyst has as well, you know, as a societal.

force. I mean, 200,000 deaths, that's greater than gun violence or global terrorism. Yeah. Right, but we don't frame it that way. Right. They're looking around, okay, well, we certainly did a job on COVID-19. What other damage can we do? And now it's going after all childhood vaccination. So this is playing out now in state legislatures in southern states like here in Texas and Florida. We're seeing all of this craziness coming out of Governor DeSanctus in Florida around bringing in the Florida Supreme Court to discredit vaccinations. nations and it's having a global effect. I had the opportunity to meet with the leadership of the World Health Organization and Jane Neva at the end of last year. And they wanted making a wonderful video from a lecture I gave. It basically said that this is pretty scary stuff, what's happening. And the health sector doesn't quite know what to do because it's gone out

of the health sector, really. This is full on political movement at this point. So when people say, okay, Doc, what do we do? And I say, well, I don't really know. I'm not a, you know, a I'm not an expert in government, but there are people who do, and we need to bring in smart people from Homeland Security and the Commerce Department and the Justice Department to help us figure out what are the levers we can pull and push, and same with the United Nations. Obviously, you are 100% correct when you say that this is now a political movement and it's a political movement on the right. I was thinking, though, that it feels like it's sort of metastasized into that.

That's not how I remember the silly autism stuff starting. That's right. You're absolutely right. So, you know, and back then, you know, in the early 2000s, well, you did see there was this extremist component, but it was both sides of the aisle, right? So you had people here in Texas on the far right spouting anti-vaccine attitudes, but also people on the left. You know, you had the, I don't know what you call it, Peace Love and Granola, Crunchy. The Crunchies, yeah. Vachon Island in Seattle.

You know, that we have to be careful what we put into our kids. And maybe that part, the leftist part, still exists, but it's not nearly as prominent right now as overwhelmingly it's, this is something coming out of the far right. And as a physician scientist is the hardest thing I've ever had to talk about because all of my training is a physician scientist says, you know, you're not supposed to talk about Republicans and Democrats and liberals or conservatives. We're supposed to be above all that. We have to be politically neutral. But what do you do when it's so? clearly coming from one side and so well documented by the New York Times and David Leanhard of the New York Times who calls it Red COVID and Charles Gabba. So I finally said, look, I don't know how to talk about this other than to talk about it.

And again, I could care less about your conservative views, but don't adopt this one. And so I speak out about it for the sole purpose of trying to save live. And that's when I saw the second component of this, the anti-Semitism component. And in part because they know I'm a Jewish physician scientist and I don't try to keep that a secret. And I started to see the rhetoric that, you know, the hate mail that I would get by email or on social media, even some physical confrontations were around being Jewish. And it took two forms. One was, you know, overt anti-Semitic remarks saying that the Jews were responsible for the origins of COVID and vaccines are a Jewish science. and you see these horrible cartoonish Jewish people holding a syringe with sort of an evil grin

and that sort of thing that the ADL, the Anti-Divamation League puts up. But then there's another, I don't want to call it subtle because there's nothing subtle about it, but it's less direct, which is that the anti-vaccine groups will compare vaccinations to the Holocaust, which, of course, is both trivializing the Holocaust, mocking the Holocaust, And you have lead anti-vaccine activists parading around in their rallies wearing phony yellow Jewish stars with the word no vaks written in the words Hebrew letters. You know, some people will say, well, that's not really anti-Semitism, which is gross. But I think it is a form of anti-Semitism because it's Holocaust denialism, minimizing the Holocaust. And it's designed to intimidate people like myself.

And it works, by the way. It is intimidating. And then what you have is now when the threats that I get. What they'll say is I'm going to be hanged at Nuremberg 2. That's what they call it. So there's going to be this Nuremberg-like tribunal or trial that goes on to finally do away with all the vaccine scientists because the claims are the vaccines killed people, which is absolutely absurd. Right. To me, that also represents a form of anti-Semitism.

So I've been speaking more about this. I spoke at the Holocaust Museum in Houston about it, speaking at synagogues and about it. speaking at synagogues and about it, because I think people need to know that end of things. And actually, I got kind of interested in it because I have another paper, which is under review, that takes a more historical approach to say, is this absolutely unique accusing vaccinology as being Jewish science? And it turns out Philip Ball, who wrote an excellent book called Science Under the Third Reich, a few years back, points to the fact that Einstein's relativity during the Weimar Republic was also accused. of being the Jewish science and it was driven by ego or it was not like robust or more muscular

Aryan science, which was experimental physics and Einstein and that whole group of theoretical physicists or working in Berlin in Germany, people like Lisa Meitner and others were ostracized and ultimately had to escape sometimes at the last minute with their lives out of Germany. also have a second paper, which is looking at in a historical context as well. See, that's interesting because you, in the current paper, you write that increasingly anti-Semitism converged with a growing anti-science ecosystem. And my question was, is this simply a case of, well, it's the same people who are anti-science, who are anti-VACs, they're also anti-Semitic.

So it just sort of... Yeah, so the point is, you know, anti-Semitism is a fellow traveler with far-right extremism, right? we've seen that right you know ever since charlottesville what what happened so so yes i think that that's a big component of it but there's also this kind of unique flavor disgusting flavor to it also and and is that like as you said is that because it you know look if you go back into the history of vaccinology or whatever you do find that there were a lot of jewish doctors and a lot of jewish scientists who help develop these vaccines which in a normal world would be caused for celebration right

And look, and is among most of the world, I think, in terms of polio and stuff like that. But look at Albert Sabin and Jonas Salk. We're both Jewish physicians who, by the way, went to NYU Medical School because of the anti-Semitism of the day. That was one of the only medical schools they could go to back in the 30s and 40s. And then, you know, Stan Plotkin developing the Rebella vaccine or my friend Paul Offit and the rotavirus vaccine and our efforts for schistosomiasis vaccine. And so Shagas disease vaccines and COVID vaccine. So, yes, I think, you know, there are a lot of Jewish scientists. And that should be a source of pride.

Rahal Schneerson and John Robbins, aka Rabinowitz, developed the homophilous influenza type B vaccine, which has saved so many lives here in the United States. To me, that should be a source of pride. And one of the reasons why I became a vaccine scientist is an MD PhD in New York in the 80s. But to give it this sort of nefarious flavor is really demoral. it can be really demoralizing at times. Oh, for sure. And I just, you know, I think about every second that you and other scientists have to have to talk about this.

And look, even come on the new abnormal and talk about this as a subject as opposed to working on new vaccines. And it's such a shameful waste that you have to do this. Yeah. And the way I explained it is, look, I signed on to getting an MD PhD to make vaccines because I thought that was, Really, science and the pursuit of humanitarian goals, which is what I wanted to pursue. I even call it because I have a cousin who is a Holocaust survivor, Rabbi Phil Izowski in Bloomfield, who taught me the concept of Tikun al-Um repairing the world. I even call it science Tikun. That I signed up for what I didn't sign up for, but I'm taking on because there's a vacuum and not many people are doing it is having to defend vaccines. That's now become a major activity of mine. And I do it because there is a vacuum in a gap. You know, when it came to autism, I said, look, here I am a vaccine scientist, pediatrician, parent of an adult daughter with autism, intellectual disabilities. If I don't debunk it, who's going to, so I did it. And no good D goes unpunished. So they really went after me. And now I really understand what the anti-vaccine movements about.

You know, sometimes I do get frustrated that we don't get quite the backing of the scientific societies too often are relatively silent. We need them to step up as well. It can't just be one-off individuals like myself doing this. So it needs to be better organized and that's something else I'm working on. Yeah. And in fact, you're writing an entire book about this called The Deadly Rise of Anti-Science, A Scientist's Warning. Well, first of all, when does that come out? I was supposed to come out in the summer, maybe some advanced copies in the spring. And it was a tough book to write. First of all, it was depressing as hell to write it, you know, because you're really detailing, chronicling how so many of my neighbors here in Texas and other southern states needlessly

lost their lives because they were victims of this garbage and describing how the anti-vaccine ecosystem and how it's comprised of members of the House Freedom Caucus at the highest levels of our government pushing this anti-vaccine rhetoric or the CPAC conference in Dallas in 2021. First they're going to vaccinate you and then they're going to take away your guns and your bibles and as ridiculous as that sounds to us, people down here accepted that. And then having it amplified every night on Fox News as well, well documented by me. Media Matters, a watchdog group, and ETH Zurich, the big MIT version of, that's in Europe, a social science group looking at that. And also the contrarian intellectuals that came from far right think

tanks to give it academic cover. So the point is, you know, we call it misinformation, disinformation or infodemic, like it's just some random stuff that pops up suddenly on the internet. But it's not that at all. It's organized and it's well funded and it's politically motivated. That's the scary part to talk about. And to help me understand it, better I've had to really start reading some political science and understanding what authoritarian regimes do. And, you know, talking to people like Ruth Ben Gett, who's political science and history professor at NYU, who writes a book called Strongman about authoritarian regimes or even Hannah Wrenz writing,

the origins of totalitarianism. This is just precedent for this. This is how authoritarian and totalitarian regime operate. You target the intelligentsia and you target the scientists because they represent threats to the regime. And that's what seems to be happening now with our House Freedom Caucus and, you know, people like Senator Rand Paul or Ron Johnson and Wisconsin. And it's not fun to talk about. And again, I say it not to be political myself, but just to tear it out from the far right because it's killing too many people. Well, Dr. Hotez, you've done it again.

You have thoroughly depressed me. but this is a very important discussion and I'm so thankful that you have sort of taken a lead on this, even though it is a shame that you've had to. And I am very much looking forward to the book. Obviously, we would love to have you back on when the book comes out to talk more about this. Dr. Hottes, thank you so much. Thank you. You know, just one last where I promised the silver lining in this. Sure. And the silver lining is it's a bit theoretical, but I do believe, you know, we're a great nation and this will auto-correct.

but I think we're in for some very dark times in 2023 because of the House oversight and Judiciary Committee hearings, which are going to target science and scientists. So I think it could get worse before it gets better. Well, I guess that's a bit of a silver line. Thank you so much, Dr. Hodes. Thank you. Nothing is more abnormal than the rise of the radical right. Fever Dreams is a Daily Beast podcast, taking you inside the rights push to retake power

from the MAGA Acolytes to the straight-up grifters. They recently released their 100th episode, so there's no better time to listen. Head to beast. pub slash fever dreams to check it out. Folks, I am very happy to be joined on The New Abnormal with Daniel Lipman, who's a reporter at Politico covering the White House and Washington. Your most recent article entitled,

The CEO of Anti-Woke Inc. has his eye on the presidency. Daniel, you're covering the Vec Ramoswamy, who is a, I guess, a half a billionaire, a multi-millionaire, New York Times bestselling author, but he's most notable as a fixture on Tucker Carlson's show as, I guess, a new right-wing star. So tell us a bit about your piece and why you think that Vec is somebody to watch. Yeah, so thanks so much for having me. Well, my piece started with a trip I went to Iowa in early January where I kind of followed Vec around town in Des Moines, where he met with Republican legislators, and he spoke to this agriculture expo to 2,000 farmers. And he was selling his message of woke is bad, and I am the answer,

even though he wasn't telling people then that he was going to run for president. That's a story that I broke on Monday. And so, you know, the reason I focused on him, is I had heard about him before. His books had done very well. He is a fixture on Fox News on the conservative speaking circuit. And it shows how much wokeness is persona non grata on the right, where one of the leading intellectual godfathers, you know, he would be happy with that term, I'm sure,

of being anti-woke is someone that wants to be president of the United States, be the most powerful man in the world. So he thinks that these ideas are just very important. and he wants to spread the gospel. And he thinks that there's currency among Republican voters who do not like how the culture and business and corporate America is becoming more progressive, more about social values,

and less about just pure profit-making. And so that's why he wants to run for president. I mean, what differentiates him? I want to dig into your piece a bit because, look, it is not a shock that Republicans embrace the idea of keeping their constituents undereducated, unconscious, right, which to me is the opposite of what it means to be woke, and completely separated from reality in a lot of ways.

What is the difference between a character like Vavec and DeSantis, other than the fact that DeSantis is an actual politician who is prescribing legislation to pretty much turn Florida into a fascist state? So how does Vavek see himself as being able to stand out from a field of people who have embraced Trumpism, which is what this is? I would disagree a little bit. I don't think it's pure Trumpism because if you had Ramoswamy and Trump in a debating society about Foucault or other philosophers, I think Ramoswami would do pretty well against Trump. He is very well read. He went to Yale and Harvard. He's made all this money as a biotech entrepreneur. And so I think he kind of provides the intellectual heft that gives those other politicians,

you know, almost a reason to run. He has kind of implemented it in his own firm. He started an anti-Blackrock called Stride, which is an asset management firm that tells companies, hey, stay out of politics, leave the politics to the politicians. And so I think what distinguishes him is that to a Republican audience, it's a compelling message. And it's something where he has the ideas for it. And it's more of a theoretical thing for him instead of, hey, I've been governor, I've been senator, or I've been the mayor of Cincinnati or Columbus, and I've implemented these ideas.

This is more kind of a trial balloon about, hey, will my ideas have traction? will I be able to raise the name ID of myself since not many people know him. I ran into one Republican state rep in Iowa and said I was following Ramoswamy and I said, well, he's about ESG. And she said, oh, is he pro-ESG? Is he anti-SG? ESG is environmental, social, and governance. And that's the philosophy that has made an impact on Wall Street in terms of telling companies,

hey, you can't ignore climate change. You can't pollute the rivers. and not think twice about it, and especially about racial equity issues. What are you doing to have diversified your board to make sure that your companies are representative? He is kind of trying to gain attention, but also he is making a serious play about running for president. And so, and he is not a nobody. This is a person who has a lot of followers on Twitter and Instagram and, you know, his books have been bestsellers.

He gets a lot of people who say, you know, you should run for president. You have my vote. And I even heard that in Des Moines. And so I think that indicates that with someone like DeSantis who gets criticism for having not a great personality in terms of being personable, that gives an opening to someone like Ramoswami who wants to have both the intellectual capital, but also someone who is personable and wants to glad hand

and talk to people and meet them one-on-one. You know, what I find interesting about Ramoswami is, You even said it just before when you're talking about him as presenting an intellectual approach and idea. He's Harvard and Yale educated and so comes in with a different theory, right, and ideology that he can back up with intellect. Well, what we've seen, frankly, over the last several years with the Republican Party is that they don't actually care about intellectualism. If they did, Marjorie Taylor Green wouldn't be the face of the Republican Party. Lauren Bobert and Matt Gates wouldn't be the new faces and voices of the Republican Party. They seem to actually be anti-intellectualism.

They're anti-education. They're anti-books. And they have made a push, particularly obviously as it pertains to Democrats of this idea around eliticism. So how does a Ramoswamy, you think, fit in with the current machination of the Republican Party that's anti-intellect, anti-books, and pro-whatever. comes to the top of their mouth that they'll regurgitate, whether it's from QAnon or some other corner of the internet that people shouldn't pay attention to, but now 40 million people

follow. I think it's an uphill battle because the average voter will not have read Ramos Farming's books. They will not have consumed his thoughts in full. It will be sound bites or clips or they might attend a rally if he's lucky. And so he has a lot of work to do. And this is the story. This is the of the 2024 cycle. He's a political newbie. And I could see that firsthand. I was at a speech he gave to a dinner of Iowa's agricultural royalty. And he had talked with Terry Brantstad, the legendary former governor of Iowa and a political

kingmaker in the state. And he, 20 minutes later, he asked me, oh, what's that guy's name again? And so I had to tell him, oh, that's Terry Brantstad. And so then he became friends with Brantzstad. But it's kind of an indication that he is still brushing up. He doesn't know everything. And then he faces a lot of skepticism. I talked to Senator Chuck Grassley, who's been the senator from Iowa.

And I asked him, oh, do you think Ramoswamy is interested in politics? Because I kind of wanted to play dumb. I didn't want to tell them, hey, this is why I'm in Iowa to do this story about him running for president. And he said, I don't think he's interested in politics. And I asked him, well, do you think the ESG will matter to voters? and he said the average Iowa won't care about ESG quote for 10 years until it starts affecting them. And so it might be that Ramoswamy needs to run for president a couple times to kind of get that name ID up and also for more Americans to know what ESG is.

I've heard of ASG for a number of years, but that's kind of my job to know everything that's happening in the news. Right, right. If I'm not, then I'm not doing my job. And so it's definitely been an investing term. If you read Bloomberg and Reuters, they've talked about ESG for a long time. It's only recently been starting to pierce the national consciousness and hasn't done it yet for everyone. The other thing that I find really curious, right, is he gets his wealth from biotech.

I think that you wrote in your piece that he's worth half a billion dollars, right? He's not going at this in the way that Trump was the I alone can fix this. I am the businessman. I am the genius in the room. and I alone can fix this because I'm a successful businessman. What makes his business acumen different than what we have seen from Trump, who was able to kind of ride into power off of his reality TV celebrity, off of white grievance?

Ramoswamy is a Indian American. I guess, well, the first question is, how do you see their business acumen and using that as a tool in politics? How do you see it differing from Trump? versus Ramaswami. Well, if I was investing my own money, I'd probably be more likely to give some of it to Ramoswami than instead of Trump because you don't know what return you would get from Trump. And with Ramoswami, he is a legitimate businessman and had a number of five drugs that became,

he helped innovate and became FDA approved. He had some failures to. The New Yorker profiled him as the CEO of Antioak Inc. and talked about some of that business career. And so he is someone who has kind of lived the American dream, and he thinks that it's lacking in America, that America has become too sensitive and that there's not a culture of merit anymore,

and that he wants to revive it so that more people can live his American dream, if you define that as conventional in terms of making money and being very business-friendly. But that also leaves a question of, well, we have all these other problems like climate change, which if you don't have government regulation, that even Republicans recognize that you need some to solve issues like that. And so it seems like it's kind of this libertarian light touch of government policy, which, you know, he doesn't deny climate change. And it's not like 20 years ago when Republicans were very skeptical that it happened. Well, you know, it's happening.

and most Americans acknowledge that. Millions of people are affected every year, it seems. And so I think the issue is he's not running as a businessman. He's running as a culture warrior. Even though he doesn't like that term, and I don't personally think that we should make everything a battle where it's, oh, you know, let's fight this and the warrior that. But that's just the term that people use,

culture warrior and DeSantis is one too. I think he wants to revive national identity and wants to kind of get rid of affirmative action and defeat China economically. That's in his platform. He thinks that America's almost become too soft. One of his books is called Nation of Victims. Which to me is the entirety of the Republican Party.

They run on white grievance. There isn't another party that are a group of people that talks about victimhood more and how more they've been wronged than the Republican Party. The curious thing that I find about, the idea of a quote unquote cultural warrior is that both desantis and a ramaswami are people who actually don't believe in the foundational principles of america right which is that we are a quote unquote mixing pot or a salad bowl or whatever it is that people say about america but what

differentiates us globally is that people come here from all over the world in order to try their chance at the American dream in a better life and that there isn't the need for an assimilation that you can find, you can become an American, your version of America here. And there are many other places where you will go and you'll always be an outsider. America, for all of its many, many, many, many faults still provides at least the idea that you can do that. So explain a bit more of his idea, Ramoswamy, of a quote unquote, American identity? I think as American identity, he is still forming it.

And so it's not like a elevator pitch. You can say, well, this is what Rami Swin believes on national identity. He thinks that starting in some of the Ivy League colleges, which he's well aware of since he went to them, that he appreciates the education that he got there. But he also thinks that those places have become too focused on progressive politics. and instead of pursuing truth and merit, and he thinks that that has infected the broader culture where you have students in many other colleges where you have things like quiet quitting

and people who are doing the least they can get away with in their jobs instead of, hey, how can I be most successful? How can I transform the country? Thinking about themselves in terms of gaining economic status by grit and hard work and not feeling sorry for us, even though, as you mentioned, Republicans often feel like, hey, Democrats and the media, they're all attacking us all the time. And so sometimes they feel sorry for themselves. He wants to

move away from that, you know, in his ideal world and focus on, hey, let's, what can you contribute? Let's not focus on so much on identity politics. Let's not focus on what divides us. Instead, hey, let's all be Americans. It's a very economic message in terms of he wants everyone to have that type of success and he wants to, you know, fix the education system and make people feel like they're part of America instead of feeling put upon by racism or structural inequality. He doesn't like those terms as much. And so I think it's a tricky balance. He's making a very intellectual argument in a party that seems to be moving to electing Ronda Santis or Donald Trump, number two, to be president.

instead of someone who's 37-year-olds old and has never held a political office. I will be honest. I think he seems like an asshole, in my humble opinion, of just you're super wealthy, you've had a privileged education, you have no real understanding of how politics works, which we don't need any more people to be leading this country who have no idea about how government actually works. And just because you were successful in business does not mean that you will be successful in governing a nation. And there's no one which way to be an American. And I wonder how he will fare in a party that has embraced and stands with white supremac when it comes to a matchup against those who want to make sure that white people remain comfortable and safe in this country and

put that above everything else. He has enough money to be able to fund himself as far as he would like to take himself. And I think that that will be an interesting thing to watch. But it seems to me that he is, like you said, in for an uphill battle, but I think in more ways than one. One of the interesting things in his potential presidential platform is that he wants to fire the managerial class of the government. And so that's a lot of civil servants who have a lot of experience and know how to operate the Department of Housing and Urban Development or DHS or HHS, all the alphabet soup of agencies. And so that is, those people are, protected from being fired by their political bosses unless they really mess up.

And so he wants to strip those protections away for a lot of these people. And that carried to its end that could really hobble the government in trying to have an effective governing body where people can get services, where people, if they're relying on Section 8 housing, that they don't get lost in the, you know, through their cracks. And so there's a lot of people who rely on. the government, like it or not. It's just we don't have a country of 330 million American millionaires. We don't live in Switzerland or Singapore yet. Yep. And so it's a very diverse country. A lot of, and a lot of these people are also white working class Republicans. And they need the

government more than some of the city liberals who are more well off. And so I think if he ever got elected, he would face a big conundrum about, hey, do I live up to this prince, of his campaign or do I face reality, which is, hey, no one is saying that every government bureaucrat is a superstar and deserves to be there. You know, there's a bad apples in every institution and people who are lazy. Even he and most politicians would recognize that the average person who works in the government is trying to do their best and trying to fulfill their job. And they want to advance too, even if they're not, you know, making millions of dollars every year. they want to provide for their families.

It's admirable for people to go into civil service. And so I wonder how many people would actually vote for him if they work for the government. Yeah, very good point. Daniel Lipman, thank you so much for making time for the new abnormal folks. His piece is entitled, the CEO of Anti-Woke Inc. Has his eyes on the presidency, and you can check that out at Politico. Daniel, thanks for joining. Thanks for having me.

Andy Levy. Danielle Moody. It is another wonderful week in this place we call America and Earth. So there are so many people to choose from Andy this week for fuck that guy. Who is leading in your first place? Well, I'm going to go because, you know, we are just in the wake of the Super Bowl. And we're all very happy that the Eagles lost because Philly. So I'm going to go with the people behind an ad that ran during the game.

that cost, I guess, $20 million. Wow. And I'm not talking about the Gutfeld ad. I am talking about an ad that purportedly promoted the Jesus of radical forgiveness, compassion, and love. All of which sounds great. And it's a company called He Gets Us. And everything about it seemed very inclusive.

It's from an organization that claims to support biblical generosity. and if you take a look behind the curtain, it turns out that this company called the Servant Foundation, which is based in Kansas, they have given more than $50 million to the Alliance Defending Freedom, which is a company that fights against abortion and non-discrimination laws, is designated as an anti-LGBQ hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. Actually, according to Jacob in the ADM, helped draft the 2018 Mississippi abortion law that later went to the Supreme Court and allowed states to ban abortions, et cetera. So no, this is not a group of people who want to spread a message of Jesus's

love and forgiveness. They want to spread right-wing political ideology. And they paid $20 million to do it. And they paid $20 million to do that. They got the chance to Shill for Jesus alongside ads for mayonnaise and avocados, which I found I don't know which of those did more for their business. But the whole thing was a disgusting ad dressed up as a message of love, which is basically defines, you know, right-wing quote-unquote Christianity. So they get my fuck-that-guy for today. Yeah. What is it about these right-wing, quote-unquote Christians that, that need to lie about everything. Like the people who fancy themselves as abortion clinics,

but people get inside and it's an entire like fraud shop, right, in order to talk you out of an abortion, in order to shame you and do all these things. Like, if your religion is so good, why the fuck you got to lie about it? Right? Like, why do you have to pretend to be somebody else? Right?

Like, they make me sick. Yeah. I mean, just in general, and you see this a lot on the right, If you have to lie or soft pedal what your sort of political stances or the bills that you're introducing or the laws that you want, if you have to soft pedal all of that stuff, that's a good sign that you're in the wrong, I think. Yeah. So Danielle, who is your fuck that guy for today? Well, while you did an advertisement, I am going to do a person, which is not someone who is unfamiliar to our list. Lauren Bobert and staying in the theme of the Super Bowl, Lauren Bobert is an ass.

And here is why. Because Cheryl Lee Ralph, who is most well known right now for the part that she plays on Abbott Elementary, which she won, I believe, in Emmy or a Golden Globe for. Cheryl Lee Ralph performed, Lift Every Voice, and sing at the beginning of the Super Bowl, which is known as the Black National Anthem. And this piece of trash, you know, not to ever outdo herself, decided to tweet and say something to the effect of America only has one national anthem. She wrote this in all caps, Andy, in case you were wondering. Oh, okay.

America only has one national anthem. Why is the NFL trying to divide us by playing multiple? Do football not wokeness? Lauren Bobert, you fucking. You human fucking troll. The lift every voice and sing. First of all, I have my own issues. We all have our own issues with the NFL. I have my own issues in what they have done to Colin Kaepernick, what they have done with regard to not backing their black players in standing up for social issues. What they have done and what I learned after Hamlin was treated on the field and thank

God, he also made an appearance at the NFL and looks like he's well on his way to recovery from his heart stopping on the field, but learning a lot about the fact that, you know, you have to be three years vested in in order to get financial security for the rest of your life. So there are a lot to hate about the NFL and the way that they handle a whole host of things. But having Cheryl Lee Ralph sing, lift every voice and sing, not one of the things that I would call out. And it's sure as fuck, as old as it is, is not part of the quote unquote wokeness, right? It was birthed out of the civil rights era. It was birthed out of black people trying to figure out how to love a country that does not love it back. And so instead of maybe listening to the words, instead of actually understanding

the purpose of Lift Every Voice and Sing, this fucking human troll decides to tweet her thoughts. I'm so sick of these people. I'm so sick of them getting air. I'm so sick of them getting headlines. And I'm so sick of the fucking term that they talk about in a way that has no meaning anymore. All they want is Americans, what did you say earlier, Andy? You said, their model young woman in America is 14 years old, knocked up, working at a meatpacking plant with no books and completely illiterate. That's who they are.

That's what they're about. And so I wish that the pushback to their fucking quote. unquote anti-wokeness was just the truth. They want people to be asleep. They want them to be controlled. They believe that the worst thing that people can have is an education. And that is what makes me understand that we are devolving as a quote-unquote civilized nation because of people like Lauren Bobert, the human troll. Yeah, they're so fixated on this phrase, the black national anthem. The weird thing about that is that's like a colloquial term that has grown around that song and for all the reasons that you pointed out. It's not any kind of official national anthem of

the country. They also played America the Beautiful. That's not our national anthem. They didn't have a problem. Lord Bobart is not complaining. She's like, let there should only be one song. Well, why aren't you upset that they played America the Beautiful then? That's a second song. In my mind, a great compromise would be just let the Ray Charles America the Beautiful song be our national anthem. Because that's by far a hundred million times better than the Star-Spangled Banner. It's Black History Month. I wish I continued to forget. You have two black quarterbacks starting in a Super Bowl.

First time ever. And the idea that you are losing your mind over a song, a song by the way called Lift Every Voice and Sing, Like, well, what a negative message that is. This is a positive song. This is a spiritual positive song. And you're just upset because it's, you're calling it woke, which is your version of non-white. And it's just, I mean, you're right.

She is a human troll and it sucks that we even have to talk about people like her and Marjorie Taylor Green and the rest of their ilk. But unfortunately, they are human trolls who, reside in the halls of Congress. So we don't have a choice. I hate them. I just want to add. I hate them.

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