The Daily Beast Podcast - Moms for Liberty Loves DeSantis—but They’ll Never Vote for Him

Episode Date: July 7, 2023

On this week’s The New Abnormal, extremism expert Jared Holt recounts his trip to a Moms for Liberty conference—and why DeSantis just can’t get the MAGA faithful to defect. Plus! A talk with political researcher Anat Shenker-Osorio about Democrats’ messaging woes.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What an excellent show we have for you today. Anach Shankar Osario,

host of the podcast Words to Win by, stops by to talk about the ways the Democrats need to approach their messaging following the recent Supreme Court decisions. Then we're joined by senior research analyst for the Institute for Strategic Dialogue Jared Holt, who's going to tell us all about Moms for Liberty and the recent Joyful Warriors Conference in Philadelphia. But first, let's have some fun. So, Danielle, let's welcome everyone back from celebrating American exceptionalism. I'm sure you're exhausted from winning all the time, Danielle. And let's talk about someone else who is apparently exhausted their welcome. And that is Carrie Lake, the woman who thinks that she is the governor of Arizona, has been, as we have noted, I think repeatedly on this podcast, she's been a

frequent guest at Mar-a-Lago and is sort of always there and making herself useful, vacuuming red carpets and stuff like that. But apparently, according to reporting from the Daily Beast, Zach Petrizo, they're getting a little tired of her. One Trump advisor tells Zach, she is a shameless, ruthless demagogue who wants power and will do whatever she has to do to get it. And I guess you can only have one of those at a time. Yeah. Because it sounded. like a Wikipedia description of Donald Trump. So I'm confused. I thought that, you know, birds of a feather. But look, you could see how that, you know, that would be stepping on his toes. Oh, okay. So I don't know, you know, she was clearly trying to be vice president in a Trump

administration or to at least be his pick. Who knows? She may have overstayed her welcome at Mara Lago. I mean, she stays there more than Melania does. So, you need some woman on your arm. I would assume. But I think, you know, here's the thing about her. She's just a waste of space. Like, she doesn't actually offer anything other than lawsuits. She doesn't have any, like, point of view other than white grievance, which, again, you would think that Donald Trump is all in for.

But the thing about him is that he is an egomaniac and a narcissist, and you cannot outshine him. Hence why he chose the communion wafer we know as Mike Pence. because that man blends in with a white wall for a lot of reasons, but also because he's never going to outshine Trump, you know, except for the fact that he was going to be hanging from a gallows. If people found him on January 6th, that might have been his moment. But when I look at Carrie Lake and her issues with the Arizona election, one would think that that would find her in Arizona more.

It doesn't because she stays in Florida all the time. Like if you actually gave a shit about, the state that you tried to become governor in, you would think that you would be there pounding the pavement, but she's over in Florida running her mouth. So I think that it is not too long for us to finally forget this woman's name and her to fade into obscurity because she has worn out her welcome. Well, the thing is she's already like half faded in all the videos of her because of all the filters she uses. So it won't take her much longer to disappear completely. But no, you're absolutely right. And she was. like, if I recall correctly, she was basically at Mar-a-Lago the day after she lost the election. And she's been there, like, this whole time, you know, sending out fundraising emails about fighting for the people of Arizona from Florida.

And it's been fairly obvious that she could not give a shit about the people of Arizona and that she was, you know, attaching herself umbilically to Trump in order to try to be his vice president. but I still, I just can't get over that quote that I read earlier. It's just so perfect. She's a shameless, ruthless demagogue who wants power and will do whatever she has to do to get it. And this is supposed to be a negative coming from a Trump advisor. He wants loyalty, but he doesn't want somebody that is going to be in front of the camera more than he is. Right. He doesn't want somebody that is going to have more name recognition than he does.

And so it's just like, it's, I guess, you know, your narcissism can't outdo his narcissistic. I'm like he's the sun. She needs to be Pluto. Kind of a planet, but not really. Like, that's her. Yeah, I don't like the Pluto disparagement. Pluto, to me, will always be a planet. You're right.

Pluto, if you're listening, call me. Call me. Look, you summed it up perfectly. You can't have two narcissists, you know, side by side. It just, it doesn't work. They cancel each other out. Exactly. Try again, Carrie.

So, speaking of people who tried again, we have Walt, who was Donald Trump's personal aid slash valet or valet, as they said in the movie Titanic. And I kind of have stuck with that pronunciation ever since. I don't know why. Don't at me. He famously sort of was not able to plead not guilty to the charges arising from the Mar-a-Lago documents back when Trump did because Walt did not have legal representation. So that was postponed until July 6th.

And I believe on the night of July 5th, Walt found himself some fifth string legal representation and was able to enter a plea of not guilty. I guess now that trial can go forward. But, you know, we were talking before air. And I don't think things are not looking good for old Walt, are they, Daniel? No, they're not. And, you know, I want to say that I feel bad for this man. I mean, I don't know him, right? so he could be a total asshole.

And I'm assuming you work for Donald Trump. But here's the thing. This is how I imagine this playing out. Walt Nata is not paying for his own representation. We know the Trump flow of things. We knew this back from Cassidy Hutchinson and her testimony that initially Donald Trump did what? He paid for her attorneys.

He paid for her representation. But who do you think those lawyers are going to care about? They're going to care about Donald Trump above all else. Their job is not to keep you out of jail, keep you out of trouble. It is to keep the man that is paying for them. And Cassidy told us that and said, you know what, I'm going to get my own representation. Because I want to make sure that the people that are representing me are actually

representing me and care about my best interest. So here you have, Walt, who is a 40-year-old immigrant from Guam, who now has had to wait for. a couple of weeks in order to be able to put in his not guilty plea. But come to find out that the person who they found, they scrounged around for in the state of Florida, is an attorney, a woman by the name of Ms. Dodden, a former public defender, according to the New York Times, has limited experience with the federal courts. And get this, her name does not appear at all in PACER, the nationwide database of federal cases.

but she has handled a bunch of local cases in Florida. This is the biggest federal case the Department of Justice has ever waged. This is the most important federal case probably in the history of this failed American project. And so you would think that if you are going toe to toe with the Justice Department that maybe you might want to have somebody that has a little bit of experience, enough experience that they're, that their name would be mentioned at least one time in this nationwide database. That is not the case. And just how I look at this, I'm like, oh, Walt, oh, my man, you are probably going to be facing about 10 to 20, most likely be the one because he'll be like, well, Trump never put

his hands physically on the boxes. He didn't move it. He directed him. And so he's the one that's going to end up going to jail. I pray for you that you have somebody that's in your ear that is like, even if you're if you can get a public defender that is actually going to fight for you, you should. Because Donald Trump screws over every single person. Just phone a friend, Michael Cohen, and see how that worked out for him. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sort of with you. I kind of feel sorry for this guy because

he's so very clearly being used. And, you know, he was a cook in the Navy. And then he was a cook at the White House mess and somehow from that he became the personal aid to, well, the White House mess. This is a guy who I guess is guilty of being loyal, but being loyal to a criminal is, I don't know if that's the great character, you know, assessment that you want. And loyalty is obviously a good thing, but loyalty to someone like Trump, yeah, that's sort of on you at a certain point. You got to look out for yourself. I agree with you. I mean, you know, the lawyer, I have to assume. that they found this lawyer, because it was like a last-minute thing. I think they found her on, like, the night of the fifth. And I assume she was just there so he could enter his plea, and that by the time

the trial starts, she will be nowhere to be found. That would be my guess. If that turns out to not be the case, then, yeah, we can assume Walt's going to be spending some time behind bars without a doubt. I agree with you also, and Cassidy Hutchinson is a great example of someone who, as you said, realized what was happening to her. I don't know that Walt realizes what is happening to him. And like you said, also, I hope someone gets in his ear, someone who cares about him, gives him a heads up, that Trump will help his defense only as far as it helps him. And after that, forget it. And he needs to be on his own. And he needs to get a lawyer who's going to represent his best interests and only his best interests. But it's got to be tough. I mean, this guy's life has been, I mean, I

hate to use the word servant, but it's very weird. Earlier I looked him up on Wikipedia, and the first sentence, it just says, Walt Nata is an American butler. And that just, it was such a weird phrase. Like, I don't know if I've ever heard the phrase American butler before. Do we still use that term? You grew up with a full house of servants, Daniel. So you're a better position to answer this question than I am.

I'm just a middle class kid from Long Island, you know. Right. And I'm royalty from Long Island. So there is that. But it's just like it's wild because he is staff, right? Like he and not the white collar staff that is pushing out strategy and, you know, and representing Donald Trump. He's literally the one that is moving bags and moving boxes and like working in the kitchen.

And what just kills me about Donald Trump is that this is a man. You remember at a rally before he was elected president. he was still candidate Trump that told his supporters to rough up reporters and rough up protesters and I'll pay for your legal fees. I'm like, bitch, you don't pay for your own legal fees. Like how many people have literally sued Donald Trump to try and get like their fees for services provided from Donald Trump? So I'm like, so here is this man saying like, oh, no, no, I got you. And there is like pages and pages worth of people, employees from caterers to lawyers who never got paid by Donald Trump. So I'm like, again, this man does not have your best interest at heart.

It is amazing to me that how craven for power that people remain to be on his staff. I doubt that Will Nata has the people, the network around him that is just like for your own safety and well, being, you are facing like serious charges. You're not a fake billionaire like Donald Trump. You are not white. Like, you are not a white man in America. You are also an immigrant. Like, I mean, the boxes, my friend, pun intended, are stacked against you. It's true. Yeah. And look, let's not forget that part of the indictment against NADA is that he lied to FBI investigators because he said that he had no idea of any boxes being brought to Trump's residence. And then they were like, well, here's video of you moving those boxes. And he was like, I'd like to change my testimony. He's already got sort of

strike one there because they've got him dead to rights on lying to the FBI, which if you talk to Martha Stewart, you know, sometimes ends up in jail time, even for white women. So, who knows? He needs to get right and he needs to hopefully realize that whatever Trump says to him, ultimately Trump is not looking out for him. And I sort of feel bad for this guy, even though he has clearly helped in the commission of crimes. But there is something sort of, you know, I don't know. And again, we don't know this guy at all.

Maybe he is like an evil henchman. Yeah. That's not the impression I get. You know, I get the impression that he's a guy that Trump plucked from being a cook. and made his body man, made his, you know, personal aid, his valet, whatever you want to call it. And I feel like, you know, this guy is not like, I owe Trump everything. And that's how he's conducting it. And he needs to realize that that needs to stop.

It's just amazing to me that the Republican Party, Donald Trump, they love themselves some immigrants so long as they are in servitude to you. Like, that is when immigration is completely okay. It's just like, ugh, it's gross. And, you know, and I just feel in my heart that we're going to watch this play out in the most unjust way, that the person, again, I don't know, like we're still in the very early stages, but I just have to believe, you know, knowing history and patterns and white supremacy and the wealthy and the powerful and how things play out usually don't put those people behind bars. But everybody around them, everybody else around them ends up in. jail. And that's what we've seen so far play. Like, this is the documents case, but we've seen, watch this play out with all of the January 6 people. Hundreds and hundreds of people, sentencing, jail, Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani, you know, the rest of them who all orchestrated

at the Willard, walking around free with died dripping down their faces. Yeah. And speaking of things that are also gross, let's talk about a story that I'm not going to bash the media on this. The facts of this story have been covered, but I feel like there hasn't been enough said about this story. And what I'm talking about here is Donald Trump on the day that he got arrested, that was June 29th. He put up a post on Truth Social that included what Trump said was Barack Obama's home address. Not long after that, a man named Taylor Taranto was arrested in the Washington, D.C. neighborhood where former President Obama lives. and he was arrested a few blocks from the former president's home with a high-powered rifle.

And he had posted on YouTube that, according to the Associated Press, that he was looking for entrance points and wanted to get a good angle on a shot. What we have here is basically a former president giving out the home address of another former president, a guy who worships the one former president, Trump, taking that as a cue that he, He should go assassinate Barack Obama. And you and I have talked about this type of thing on this show a lot, Danielle, about Marjorie Taylor Green and people like that, saying things, tweeting things, whatever, that are going to lead to people dying.

Yeah. And are going to lead to people being murdered. And this is just, this is another in the line of that. And it's maybe the worst example we've seen so far, considering it's involving a former president. But we need to. talk more about this and what's going on in this country and what Donald Trump, who is, you know, the head of the Republican Party until proven otherwise, what he is doing and what I was going to say until proven guilty, but you know, whatever.

Well, and even then, I'm not sure that would change anything. So, but we need to talk about this shit. We need to talk about this not just from a legal perspective. Oh, there's a trial starting, but from what this guy did, this guy being Trump and how this shit needs to stop ASAP, but is probably not going to. I mean, you know, the thing is, is that this is, like you said, you know, one in a line of so many attacks that have happened. When we look back at, you know, the bomb threats at CNN, where did that come from? When the Republican Party and Donald Trump said that CNN and cable news were the enemy of the state, and then all of a sudden they're getting bomb threats and we're seeing them evacuated on a daily basis. You saw in, you know, Democratic headquarters,

shot up. I believe it was in New Mexico. Why? Because we say now, Republicans say that Democrats are the enemy of the state. They're a party of groomers and pedophiles. You continue to feed people lies and feed them fear about the other. Of course they are going to turn around and believe, much like the insurrectionists on January 6th, believe that they were doing their patriotic duty. They were being called upon by the president of the United States to go take their democracy back, to go take their country back. So when you turn around and you're putting out the address of Barack Obama and you're just casually just dropping it out there. But Barack Obama is this beloved figure but was turned into a Muslim or an atheist or not a citizen. All of these things, right?

We're in this moment because of what Donald Trump. and the birther movement and the white lash from the audacity of a black president in the United States. So it's just, you know, the fact is that mainstream media does not connect the dots. And we continue to see an escalation in political violence. And we're just shrugging it off as if this is normal. It's not. There have been moments in our history where political violence has happened. We've had presidents assassinated and shot at.

But we are watching this hatred, this fear, this sickness spread and we know that we as a nation are just a Tinder box. And you got these Republicans just putting more fuel, more fuel, more fuel in the fire. Yeah. We should point out that this guy, Toronto, Toronto, I'm not sure how he pronounces it, he was arrested for breaching the Capitol on January 6th. After Trump posted the address on truth social, Toronto took to Telegram, another social media site that has become overrun with right-wing nut jobs, and he posted, We got these losers surrounded, see you in hell, pedestas, and Obamas. According to Politico, he broadcast threats to blow up the National Institute of Standards and Technology.

Always everyone's favorite target. He put out a warning to Kevin McCarthy that, quote, he can't stop what's coming. He went into an elementary school near the home of Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin while live streaming threats to Jamie Raskin. So he had himself a bit of a week. And all of this was spurred on by Donald Trump's post, which is exactly what Donald Trump wants. And, you know, he does his usual thing because he's just smart enough.

Again, you know, we've talked about this before. He's like a mob boss. You don't say, kill this guy. You say, handle this guy. Well, you know, we got to do something about this guy. You keep the language vague so that, you know, if it becomes a legal situation, you know, I never said that. I, you know, I never said that at all. All I did was post a private citizen's address. I didn't tell anyone to go kill them. But like you said,

this is the world we live in now, and it's not normal, and it's not good. And yes, we've had assassinations before in our history. We've had presidential assassinations. We've had others. They tend to be pretty rare, thank God. But I am extremely worried that we're going to enter a period where they're suddenly not as rare as they used to be. No, I think that that is where we are headed. Because unless you actually had a Republican Party that, you know, was willing to come out and say, oh, you know, like sign little things like they did in the House of Representatives, sign little things like we're against white supremacy or, you know, just like, say,

we denounce political violence and, you know, not put their political opponents in actual crosshairs or make anime that shows their murder. If those things hadn't become a part of the norm over the last seven, eight years, we wouldn't be here. And all we see is that every single time somebody, some new Republican pops up, how do they do so by being the next extreme version of the last one? And so it's just this competition to the bottom and this competition to the worst. And that's how we end up in places like this because we can't collectively agree on the fact that violence and hatred and white supremacy are actual bad things. A black man being elected president broke a lot of people's brains in this country. I fully believe that a lot of what we're seeing now is a response to that.

I don't really have anything to add to that. But it's just something I've been thinking about lately. And I really do think that a lot of MAGA and a lot of that is all a reaction to people's brains. being broken that a black man was elected president of the United States. Folks, I am very excited to welcome to the new abnormal, Anat Shankar Osadio, who is the host of the podcast's Words to Win by and is a political researcher and consultant basically providing us with all of the ways that we can win the messaging war that we are fighting against the fascist Republican white supremac party.

and not we have had a series of the most devastating Supreme Court rulings that I think that we have seen in this country in the last 50 years. We know, and we talk about this all the time on the new abnormal, that the Supreme Court was stacked by Donald Trump and by Mitch McConnell to do exactly what it is that they have done. Get rid of abortion, get rid of affirmative action, get rid of any progressive progress that we have made in. this country to, I don't know, provide equity and justice in this supposed multiracial democracy that we live in. How do we message what it is that the Republican Party is doing right now? Because it's not just enough to call them fascist or white supremac. I feel like we need to do more and we have all of the tools. It's just like how do we use them? Yeah. Thanks for asking. A big question to start us off. So what I would say is a couple of things off the bat, and then I will illustrate

how that sounds in actual messaging. The first thing is that it's really, really important to break a signal through the noise. And in order to break a signal through the noise, we need to learn the lessons of the Trump years, which is that when we keep bringing up new things and essentially being like cats with a laser pointer, can you believe this happened? Can you believe they did this? Can you believe they said that? Can you believe this occurred? it's actually not landing with people. It feels to them like politics as usual, where team blue shit talks, team red, and vice versa. what we have to do is say fewer things and say them more often and piece together into one coherent story how the stuff that we're seeing from the MAGA justices on the Supreme Court

and note that I very specifically impugned the justices, not the Supreme Court in its totality. That's partly because there are wonderful people on the Supreme Court, as we know. and because there's no organizing strategy behind impugning the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is a entity and it is a building. We need to actually call out the set of individuals. And weave together what's happening with these billionaire bought justices, which is another way to refer to them. And what's going on in reg state legislatures, what's going on in the House. And so how do we do that? Well, it turns out the two phrases that we we've tested over and over and over again and that always rise to the floor as being most potent are a ruling for the wealthy few and B, taking away our freedoms. These are the two encapsulating phrases that allow voters that allow both folks in our base, including the disaffected Dems who are at risk of flight because they basically are like all of this shit's corrupt. Why even father and the conflicted voters that we need to reach out to as well. That is what allows them to

make sense of what is happening across all of these political domains and feel like, oh, this is something I need to pay attention to because at the end of the day, it impacts my well-being, my wallet, my life, and my livelihood. It's not just some sort of issue out there in nebulous space. I really love the way that you started out by saying otherwise it's like a cat with a laser. Look at this, look at that, look at this, look at that. All of these bad things are happening because I think that that is the quickest way to your point to get people to tune out. Because everything is bad and everything becomes so overwhelming and I have to pay attention to too much. So guess what I'm going to do?

I'm not going to pay attention to anything. And I think that what you've said with the two points that you made about ruling for the wealthy few, Here's the thing I feel like is universal and you tell me if I'm wrong, which is the fact that what we are seeing is the rise of the American oligarchy. Like, we are fine to look at and seize the yachts of, you know, the Russian oligarchs and all of these things. But when we look at who is actually controlling and able to buy an entire Supreme Court, we're looking at the billionaires, who are looking at people that while there were a majority of us were on food lines, at food pantries during the pandemic, there was a subset of people that were getting richer and richer as the pandemic went on. So when we look at, you know, this, the wealthy few, I feel like that is something that a lot of people can get behind because the majority of us are not millionaires and

billionaires. So do you think that, for instance, targeting in on the wealthy 1% that is ruling over the 99 is a message that we should be diving headfirst into. Absolutely. And in fact, I can put a finer point on it and actually read to you the message that we've tested and that we've refined and that we've retested through various nationally representative surveys, through randomized control trials and all sorts of different kinds of methodologies. It begins with an assertion of what is fundamental to most Americans, which is freedom.

And so we say, in America, we've. value our freedoms. And then we go immediately to, but a powerful few have always tried rigging the rules, claiming the wealth our work creates, while the MAGA Republicans they've paid for aid, a bet, and actively maintain Trump's criminal conspiracy and try to take away Social Security, Medicare, and our freedom to thrive. And the billionaire-backed MAGA justices on the Supreme Court, who took away our freedom to decide what happens to our bodies, have just ruled to make freedom a luxury only for the wealthy white straight few. They want to rule over not represent us. But we have seen, and here's the next essential point, the overcoming cynicism point, but we have seen that when

we join together across racist places and parties, the many can stand up to the money. Together, we can take on this faction and make this a place where we can earn a good living and have a good life. That is our encapsulating message that ticks the what's happening in red states, what's happening in the House, what's happening with the Trump indictment and the way that the macro-republicans are absolutely co-conspirators in this crime and, of course, the Supreme Court. And you know what I'm not? Do you know what I didn't hear in that message that you just laid out? I didn't hear Trump. I didn't hear making where we are right now solely about Donald Trump, as if. defeating him is going to defeat the Maga mentality. You were taking on what is necessary,

which is this overarching ideology around the fact that only a wealthy few and white should be those that are able to dictate the terms of freedoms to the rest of us. And so when we see Democrats, whether it be the president who doesn't mention Donald Trump by name, but other members, other spokespeople from the party, specifically going after and targeting, Donald Trump, are they missing the point by making the problem a man instead of an ideology? Yeah. I mean, I think that there are multiple points missed. First of all, there's the practical point that this man may be in prison and may indeed not become. I know that we feel like we're on inevitable march to his coronation as the Republican candidate. But if we've learned anything

from the last, I don't know how many years, it's never say never, right? We can't, actually predict what's going to occur. And I think there are too many instances to raise up to prove that point. So we can't actually know who will we be confronting in 2024. And then the rest of it is, regardless of whether or not Trump is indeed the nominee, there are all sorts of other races being run. There are all sorts of villains at play. And I think that it just frankly lends covered of folks like Marjorie Taylor Green or Josh Holly or Lauren Bobert or or, you know, or McCarthy genuinely to put all of it on Trump. And what we saw in the midterm in 2022 when Trump was nominally, you know, not on the ballot, although as a kind of figurehead and standard bearer,

I mean, it sounds funny to say standard bearer, right? lack of standard bearer for the party, he is always more or less top of mind when people are making these kinds of decisions. It's absolutely imperative that we make people understand that this is, as you rightly said, a broader ideology that is much older than Trump. And in fact, we would not have a Donald Trump were this ideology not part and parcel of our country's history. I frequently say that America has always been an argument. It's always been an argument between this supremacist faction, as you noted, that fought to create and to maintain enslavement, that fought to not allow women to vote, that fought not to allow gay and lesbian people, the right to sort of be in loving, committed relationships, on and on and on.

And that is a real part of this nation. And an equally real part, the part of this nation, that matters to me and I think matters to you and probably matters to most of your listeners, is that, you know, to paraphrase James Baldwin, I too sing America, we too sing America. And there has also always been a force in this country that has been bound and determined to make the promise of liberty and justice. truly extend to all, no exceptions, no asterisks. And unless we situate ourselves and we make this an argument about America, the real America, the true, as you said, multi-racial democracy that we have never had, but have always been striving towards, that it is us versus this wealthy and powerful few that is determined to turn us against each other, that is determined to deploy the oldest trick in the book, which is pick your scapegoat and get folks to blame that imagined other

for their travails. So you don't notice that as they're pointing the finger at XYZ group, they're picking your pocket with the other hand. That's the trick that they keep perpetrating. Yes, Trump does it too, but he is a symptom of this broader disease that has always been with us. And Anat, is it always with us because we fail to. to really reckon with our history? Are they able to continue to use the same playbook because we have yet to actually learn the lessons from it? Right?

Because essentially, the majority of America keeps getting played by the Republican Party. And they are playing the same tune that they've been fucking playing for generations upon generations from, you know, since Whistling Dixie until now. And so I'm like, is there push to erase out any understanding of history, any context of where we came from so that they continue playing Americans.

And what is the disruption in that? You're just throwing all the giant questions at me. Yeah. I mean, we're at a giant time and not. I just, I can't play small with you. I don't got a lot of time. Gotcha. Fair.

So I think that their ability to continue to play these reindeer games, it's, not just a U.S. phenomenon, right? We see it in Brexit. We see it with the, you know, we saw it in the rise of Bolsonaro and Brazil, thankfully defeated by Lula in the last election. We see it with Duterte in the Philippines. We see it, obviously with Orban. We see it with Putin. It is an idea that is built out of status threat, right? That's the sort of psychological terminology. Wherever a group that has previously felt itself to be in a dominant position suddenly feels a relative, maybe not even loss of power, but a relative loss of status, a relative loss of clarity, a relative loss of knowing, this is my place in the world, this is how it works.

And what we find about human beings, because you went big, so I'm going even bigger, is that people will do a whole heck of a lot. sometimes jokingly say motivated cognition is a hell of a drug, people will do a whole heck of a lot of mental gymnastics unconsciously, beyond their awareness, in order to try to make sense of what's going on in a world that is absolutely changing rapidly in terms of how people express themselves, how demographics shake out, how gender roles have altered, how, you know, what we do in our workplaces who does them, how children behave, how relationships are formed, et cetera, et cetera, et et cetera. And if you're the kind of person who is intolerant of ambiguity, that is that you find

these changes to be threatening or destabilizing or just even confusing, then you're kind of grasping through the dark at the edge of a cliff and looking for an anchor. And that anchor can very easily be somebody inviting you to belonging. Somebody saying to you, hey, you know what? You have a place here. Hey, you know what? Your voice matters here. Hey, you know what?

We're going to take care of you here. We get you. We know what's wrong. And we have an origin story for your problem. The origin story is that that immigrant took your job. The origin story is that that black person, you know, was being too rowdy. That origin story is that that trans person is trying to take over and alter gender and, you know, alter what it is that you're allowed to do and say and how you're

supposed to address other people. And so people are hungry for an origin story for an explanation because neoliberalism has failed us because governments, the world over, including so-called center-left governments like the Democratic Party, like the Labor Party, I mean, this is just the truth, have allowed a wealthy and powerful few to seize the wealth that our work creates and to hoard it. And so what that means is that everyone not to the same extent by any stretch of the imagination, but even for white people, they are grappling with the idea that, you know, they can't send their kid to college or they can't pay for the healthcare treatment that they require and they're trying to figure out how the heck that that occurred.

And so unless and until we actually have a rejoinder that says, no, this is the origin story. This is what's actually occurring. This is why we are all feeling to some extent the economic pain and the precarity and the confusion and, you know, the weather disasters that we can't understand and can't control, we have to be able to make meaning for people. And I think that because we have had these center left parties inside of the United States and outside of it that have not been willing to call a spade a spade and to say, actually, this is what's up. Actually, this is what's going on. And this is how, as I said in that message, the many can stand up to the money. That's really the only rejoinder.

You know, Ruth Ben Guad, who's a scholar, a historian at NYU. we were speaking recently, and she pointed out to me, moderates have never defeated fascism. There has never been a like, let's just be sort of careful and cautious and carefully calibrate and not call out things campaign that has defeated fascism in history or anywhere in the world. And so it has to be this full-throated appeal and understanding that the only way we're going to make things work is by, embracing the principle that liberty and justice does mean for all, no terms, exclusions, or conditions, and that there's a whole heck of a lot more of us and that when working people

join together across races, places, genders, plural, intentionally. So we can actually do something about this because, high, the power does rest in us. You know, and the fact is, is that to your point, that moderates have never been able to fight back against some of the biggest moments in our history that you have to get off the fucking fence. Like this isn't a both and situation. We're not at a place where it's just like, well, both of these parties do the same thing and want the same thing. So it doesn't matter who I vote for or whether or not I vote at all. And I think that where Democrats have found themselves is wanting to both not still, still not to offend white racist while still being able to court the votes of black indigenous people of color and queer people

and everyone else that those white racists that they don't want to piss off hate. And so my last question for you, Annot, is what does it look like for the Democrats to have a campaign, for Biden to have a campaign that is very clear, that is very honest and that is very blunt about the moment. The moment that we're in the danger of this moment and what we need in order to win. Yeah. Well, I think that what it looks like can be seen in living color in tangible practice when we look, for example, at the midterm elections. I'm going to take that as example one.

And example two is going to seem incongruous potentially, but I'm going to talk about Minnesota. So example one, we averted the so-called dreaded red wave. in the midterms. But if you actually look under the hood, and this is an analysis that my friend and frequent collaborator, Mike Podhorzer has made really, really cogently, he calls it Red Wave Blue Undertoe, when you actually look under the hood at what happened in the midterm elections, in the 15 states where it was clear that there was a present danger of a MAGA person at or toward the top of the ticket, and the folks in that state fought a very clear,

protect our freedoms campaign. I'm thinking of Josh Shapiro. I'm thinking of Gretchen Whitmer, utilizing both the language of freedoms and the language of someone you love in talking about abortion. I'm thinking of Federman. I'm thinking of folks in Arizona, Nevada, etc.

People in these 15 states, turnout was equal to 2018, which was a record midterm year, making it even more record, because to recreate 2018 when you're in the incumbency is actually to beat it. In the other 35 states where we actually did not win, turnout was as predicted that it was going to be because of the incumbency where base voters from our side are less motivated and base voters from the opposition are very, very motivated. And those were places like New York, like my very own California, where there was this kind of muddled message. The shorter version of what I'm saying is when we got our heads out of our asses and stopped calling

abortion to quote a word and were trepidacious about running on it and finally we're like, oh, wait, what? People care about this? We won. When we made freedom, the central issue, when we made abortion focal, when we made it clear that January 6th represented yet another salient exemplar of them coming for our freedoms. In this case, the freedom to pick our own leaders and decide who governs in our name, that is what mobilized people and that is what carried us to victory in those places and staved off this dreaded red wave. If we can figure out, if you want to touch a nerve, you've got to touch a nerve. And you take the example of Minnesota, a place that is largely white, around 80% white,

and you look at what they were able to do over the last many cycles. And it is because, and you know, I say this is a person who has worked very, very closely on Minnesota politics for a very long time, they recognized early on that this right wing race baiting is what was going on, that a colorblind economic only appeal was not going to cut it in a place where the right was trafficking in anti-black, anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant race baiting because of the Somali population that, you know, settled there. And they confronted it head on. And they had a message that spoke forthrightly, that speaks forthrightly to racial and economic justices rightly intertwined. And not only did

they achieve a trifecta, they are actually governing from their trifecta. and they just passed a whole slew of incredible laws. And that's what you can do when you speak the truth, when you actually say what you're for. Imagine that. Anna, Shanker, Osario, we will have to leave it there today. But that is the message. That is it.

Imagine what happens when you speak the truth clearly and unapologetically. You know, you win elections and maybe save our democracy. Folks, check out her podcast. words to win by. Thank you and not so much. Appreciate you and all the work that you do. Thank you for having me. Moms for Liberty was started in 2021 in protest of crazy things like kids wearing masks in schools during a viral pandemic. It has since expanded to espousing among other things, anti-LGBQ beliefs and good old-fashioned book banning. And it's the latest in a line of extremist groups that has become part of the mainstream of today's republic.

And Party. Here to tell us more is senior research analyst for the Institute for Strategic Dialogue focusing on U.S. hate and extremism. Jared Holt. Jared, thanks so much for being here. Hey, thanks for having me. So, Jared, you recently wrote a piece for The Daily Beast about watching a Moms for Liberty event in Philadelphia. Are you a founding member or did you join recently? It's recent. I got a pro-rated discount. So I'm a man of many things, but I also love a bargain. Of course. Of course. Before we get to the event itself, give us some background on the group. they exactly. Yeah. So as you noted, Moms for Liberty came into existence in 2021. If listeners turn back the clocks in their mind, this is sort of the peak of, you know, what I would call

probably the beginning in earnest of like real moral panic season in the GOP, at least in a mainstream sense. You had different groups of parents, a mix of, you know, genuine grassroots groups and, you supported by these giant lofty think tanks in D.C. with infrastructure and resources, going to school boards to hoot and holler about things like critical race theory, vaccine mandates or COVID requirements. And then the more recent thing, which we're seeing everywhere, it seems like, which is all these sort of protests and efforts against LGBTQ inclusion in public school curriculum. That has really caught fire. It's been sort of the main one for, I would say, the last year at least, probably year and a half. And Moms for Liberty has kind of emerged as a juggernaut in that space. You know, I don't know what it is specifically the branding or, you know, maybe it was the founders Tina Descovic and Tiffany Justice. Maybe they were, you know, particularly well connected. But something about this group really caught on. And you've got Moms for Liberty chapters. all across the United States now, some more wild than the others.

Essentially, what they do is they organize these groups of moms or, you know, the occasional fellows join. And they go to these school board meetings and they essentially raise hell. They fill up the public comment section with their opposition to all these different policies and inclusion efforts. They lobby against books, you know, which books should be included. really the group has kind of made its mainstay opposing any sort of lesson, curriculum, books that talk about race, sexuality, or gender. And they've had a huge reception. The group is closely

aligned with Ron DeSantis. It's getting into different state houses and taking more of a policy track. So, yeah, I mean, it's kind of the hot commodity on the conservative organizing scene right now. Yeah, it definitely seems like it. I think they now say they have over 100,000 members nationwide. So what exactly was this event, which I believe was called the Joyful Warriors National Summit? Yeah, yeah. And Joyful Warriors is a play on the term happy warrior, which a lot of people use to describe Ronald Reagan. Right. You know, essentially being joyful and prideful fighting for this moral battle, you know, in spite of any sort of criticism or pushback you might get. Unfortunately, this battle is against, you know, LGBT people specifically and particularly right now.

But this event is their sort of annual summit. They did this last year, too. It's a chance for them to bring in a bunch of their activists into one space and then to also draw on some speakers and kind of flex a little bit on them. And this year, they had five presidential candidates show up and kiss the rings of, you know, power in this group. So it's as much an organizing thing as it is almost sort of a show of influence, right? in all kinds of political groups do this.

When I was at Right Wing Watch covering these things on the ground, I was going to like Values Voter Summit. CPAC is the big circus every year. So it's like a mini CPAC, but four arms for Liberty, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So the five GOP presidential candidates, obviously there was Trump and DeSantis. Among the other three, I noticed Nikki Haley, who I keep hearing as a moderate, which, so I thought that was interesting.

And who were the other two? Asa Hutchinson, former governor of Arkansas, which is where I grew up. And that one guy, I feel so bad. It's like Vivek or something. I have no idea who this guy is. And I haven't found a good reason to try to educate myself on it. Do you know who I'm talking about? Yeah, Vivek Ramoswamy.

That guy. Yeah. He was there too. I didn't hear anything about his appearance, which seems kind of par for the course of his campaign generally. But it's, you know. I'm a little surprised that Asa Hutchinson was there. Yeah, me too. Because Asa Hutchinson was certainly, you know, conservative and deeply religious.

But, you know, when he ran Arkansas, I mean, he had a few wildcard policy positions and that sort of thing. But for the most part, you know, he did govern as a moderate Republican. Now, somebody might come up and say, well, moderate Republican these days is still, you know, pretty far out there. And people can certainly feel that way. But on the general spectrum of like republicanism today, he wasn't like a diehard mega move. type of person. And Moms for Liberty is with its affiliation with DeSantis and even just watching the crowd's reactions to Trump speaking at that event is a diehard MAGA style group, right? So it definitely was a little unusual to see him there, especially when, you know, when some of these issues did reach

his desk when he was governor, he would sometimes take a, you know, surprisingly moderate position. But I say that with the caveat that not on every instance, he certainly let some trash go through his desk. But every once in a while he would kind of surprise you with something. So what did Trump and DeSantis, who are, let's face it, the only two Republican candidates who matter right now anyway? What did they have to say there? How would you gauge the reaction to the two of them? You know, they're kind of different, right? Like Ron DeSantis, something that always strikes me about Ron DeSantis.

to bring up every time that I have to talk about him is the fact that he does a Trump impression. If you watch like old tapes of him speaking, he didn't talk like this, right? Like he has adopted the cadence, the body language and gestures of Trump. But something that stuck out to me about his speech was that, I mean, his whole campaign is just staffed with like the most internet brain poisoned motherfuckers there are in GOP politics right now that live their whole lives, yelling at people on Twitter. And it can feel like a little bit in the weeds, but this was the exact group that is deep in the weeds with them. Right. So he got a pretty favorable reception. He was using a little bit more pointed rhetoric than Trump, who would read things off the teleprompter, like, you know,

the pronoun curriculum. And he'd be like, what's up with that? You know, Trump called Joe Biden Byron a few times, which was, I don't know, I definitely think on that first day, up until the Trump speech, I was like, okay, Ronda Santis clearly has captivated the crowd, at least on the main stage, more than any of the other speakers. But, you know, like so many things, you know, for all the questions that get raised these days about, you know, whether Trump still has the vice grip on the GOP or whatnot, you know, when Trump gets on stage, you know, he just brings the house down. Like, that is what people want. You know, my sense is that even though Ron DeSantis maybe spoke more directly to the kind of issues and concerns that the diehard moms for liberty crowd have taken up for themselves, at the end of the day, they still want Trump. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And this is obviously a separate conversation, but this has got to be driving DeSantis crazy because in his mind, he's going to these, you know, event. And he's saying all the right things to these people. And then Trump just gets on stage.

And as you sort of alluded to, I personally don't think Trump gives a shit about pronouns. I don't think it's anything he's ever really even thought about. And he'll, you know, make little handwaves in that direction. And that's really all they need from him. And it doesn't matter how, like you said, it doesn't matter how on point DeSantis is. They just, they still want Trump. Yeah, they do still want Trump. And something I will note about Trump's speech is especially towards the end, he started rattling

off this list of promises he was making to moms for. liberty. And some of it was just truly extreme stuff. I might be misremembering the specifics of this, but like if you teach gender theory or something like that, you know, he wants to strip federal funding from your school. I mean, it's just like, it's almost hard to like remember them all. But it was just, it seemed like it kept escalating. And it reminded me of the drill tweet where it's like turning the racism dial and looking back at the crowd to, you know, gauge the reaction. It was like, you know, he would promise something and be like, you know, And we're going to, you know, ban pronouns and the crowd would go nuts.

And it was like he would, you know, kind of look around and be like, well, we're also going to ban this. And, you know, and it was, it was pretty intense, you know, describing, you know, and like how Trump always is. He's very flippanty. Right. So, you know, where Ron DeSantis is talking about the woke Marxist agenda, you know, Trump just like leans into the mic and it's like, these people are perverts. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

And the crowd goes nuts, you know? Yeah. I guess in that way, it was like kind of illuminating. Yeah. No, Desantis just strikes me. He's kind of like the debate team member who preps really, really hard and gets all the facts down, Pat, that he needs to give to his audience. And then Trump just gets up there, like you said, and just kind of says, they're all a bunch of fucking perverts. And he wins the debate.

Yeah. And it's just amazing. I mean, that's what he did in 2016, too. Of course. be arguing policies or whatever. And I just remember, you know, on a loop in my head, him saying that, like, Jeb is a mess. And then Jeb's campaign was over. Right. Exactly. So who are some of the other speakers? I noticed North Carolina lieutenant governor Mark Robinson, who likes to spice up his own sort of anti-gay, anti-trans rhetoric with a big old dose of anti-Semitism, likes to put the phrase six million Jews in scare quotes. I noticed he spoke there. Yeah, he spoke there. He's like a diehard Christian nationalist. He's a wild one. You also had people like Chris Ann Hall, who's, you know, big conspiracy brain who in the past is affiliated with groups like the oath keepers and the leak of the south. So, you know, heading into this conference earlier in June, the Southern Poverty Law Center put a file on Moms for Liberty into their catalog, calling them, you know, an extremist anti-government group. Right.

Moms for Liberty has debated that quite a bit. One of the co-founders even seemed to tease that, you know, there might be some legal action they're considering. Good luck. Chris Ann Hall being affiliated with the Oathkeepers in the League of the South, one of those is an anti-government group whose leader is going to jail for insurrection-related crimes. And the other one's a neo-confederate group. Like, that is much less debatable. Right. You know, she was in the mix.

You also had Jimmy Concepts, aka James Lindsay, who was. kind of early on this forefront push of like trying to over academic eyes, opposition to gay people, and, you know, was on sort of the forefront of calling people groomers and that sort of thing. He's a real piece of work. You know, I was a philosophy minor in college. So every time I hear him bring up different philosophers to try to like argue why there's a Marxist color revolution underway to corrupt your children and make them transgender, it always infuriates me because it's just like the shittiest reading of philosophy in mainstream. Yeah.

So you have people like that, which for all the, you know, debate from moms for liberty saying, you know, we're not an extremist group. We're just concerned moms or whatever. It really didn't do themselves any favors, I don't think, in, you know, pushing back on this idea that the group has less than pure motivations, you know, by bringing people in that say that transgender people have the spirit of the Antichrist and that sort of thing. I don't know, Andy, maybe this is a hot take, but that seems like maybe a step ahead of, you know, just fighting for parents' rights and, you know, wanting to get parents involved in the classroom.

When you hear that stuff, that should just be like a red bullshit flag that pops off in your head. That sounds to me like something that someone who also has the Antichrist in them would say, to be honest, yeah. I mean, it came out of my mouth. So I, I, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Along these same lines, I noticed, you know, in reading your piece of The Daily Beast that there did seem to be a lot of people there who were sort of taking the SPLC's designation of Moms for Liberty as an anti-government extremist group as sort of either a joke or even a badge of honor. Yeah. I mean, this is kind of just what we've seen. I think it's been one of the defining characteristics of sort of the Trump era of politics. And so much of the Trump era sort of echoes, you know, sort of the themes. of like the Reagan era, right, of, you know, between calling itself, you know, the joyful

warrior summit, you know, the play on happy warrior to these people saying, you know, like, oh, you know, they criticize us, they attack us, but it's because we're doing good work and we're fighting the good battle and we're the only ones in the way of their terrible agenda. But you even had Nikki Haley, you know, famous moderate, Nikki Haley, which I had to put the word relative in front of moderate to keep my sanity. But, you know, she said something to the effect of like, you know, oh, they said this was a terrorist organization, which no, they didn't. But even then I said, you know, well, if that's the case, then just mark me down as a mom for liberty. When I heard that come out of her mouth, I just had a very sort of, you know, sometimes the words like,

what the fuck? Just scream in your head. That was one of those. You know, Ronda Santos took that sort of traditional happy warrior argument of, you know, we're winning the fight. Trump said that, how could they call you an extremist group? You guys are so nice to me. It's perfect. And then this one guy, Ryan Walters, who's like a real piece of work out of Oklahoma, who is like absolutely nuts about like wanting to destroy teachers unions, which of course makes them very popular among conservative think tanks, was like, oh, you know who else was

a terrorist group, an extremist group? Yeah, that's right. the founding fathers. And you guys are the founding fathers. Oh, Ron DeSantis also did something funny. Oh, he compared moms for liberty to like the people that fought for,

you know, to liberate Berlin after World War II. I don't know, but it's, you know, it's something I, I always try to put myself in the shoes of like the true believer here,

right? And if you hear that kind of stuff as the reaction and you believe it, why would you feel shame? I mean, this is stuff like like, sure. that, you know, in my opinion, you should feel shame about. A healthy social practice is like enforcing

shame against, you know, espousing naked hatred or like trying to undermine things like public schooling. But there just is no shame. Instead, it's every time I'm going to cite a second drill tweet. So it's like a record for podcast appearance. You know, keep yelling at me, keep screaming at me or whatever. It only makes my opinions worse or something like that. Right. I mean, it truly is like that is the dynamic. No, absolutely. I would love to live in a world where all of this could be extremely funny and listening to these insane people compare themselves to, you know, the liberators of Berlin and all that stuff. You could just laugh at that and move along with your life. But as we all know, we can't laugh at this shit or we can't just laugh at this shit because, you know, as we said, five Republican presidential candidates showed up at this summit. And they, Monster Liberty is now a, is a mainstream Republican. public in group. It's not funny anymore because these people are ruining lives. Well, I think it is very funny. And I think it's important to, you know, allow yourself to laugh. You know, if you don't laugh, you'll cry, right? But sure, I mean, yeah, I think the temptation among some people who maybe

otherwise mean well is to look at a group like this or hear about, you know, these groups using language like this and think, I don't know anybody who really thinks like that. You know, this, this is a fringe group. This is maybe a bad group, but it is fringe. It's not the mainstream. But when you have five presidential candidates coming to kiss the ring there, that's an alarm. Yep. You know, and when you have groups like the Heritage Foundation and the Leadership Institute, again, Reagan era, you know, think tanks that have been around for 50 years, that is also a red flag because that means serious money and serious network and resources is going into this group. So it is French, right? The ideology is French. Most people, if you look at public opinion polling, don't think like this. But left

unaddressed or left unopposed or at least countered with, you know, some other kind of message, that tide can always shift. Public opinion is fluid. You know, I think we can laugh at this group, but it's also one that we do have to take seriously. Absolutely. Jared, thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for watching this so that I didn't have to. Jared Holt, come back anytime, love talking to you. Thanks again. Yeah, thanks for having me. Danielle Moody. Andy Levy. Danielle, who is your fuck that guy to close out this magnificent week in American history? You know, I don't know who to actually make it. Is it Ron DeSantis? Is it Meatball Rob? Is it his war room? is it his campaign?

Let's just put it all under one big fat umbrella of dumb. But Rhonda Santas' team decided to create a video going after Donald Trump for being an LGBTQ loving Republican. And it's just like when they made or retweeted this stupid fucking video, which has, you know, drag queens that Donald Trump. rallies and, you know, him, I guess, like hugging rainbow flags or whatever it is. It's like, do you just pretend that we're all stupid and haven't listened to or heard Donald Trump over the past eight years? Do you just suspend reality and think that by you putting out this god awful,

the worst video I think I have ever seen done, that somehow this is going to get people to love you because you are the most homophobic and transphobic candidate running for president of the United States. It is so fucking wild that this kind of homophobia and transphobia is what you believe is going to get you elected. I'm so taken aback by it, but it's also so fucking God awful that Ronda Santis just continues to show us how fucking inept he is at like everything, including eating pizza, which also he doesn't know how to fucking do. It's incredible. It's incredible in its just disgusting nature and just using a marginalized community

of a marginalized community for you to step on their necks and back, but then try and purport in some type of way that Donald Trump is our savior for the LGBTQ community. That somehow like we're voting in mass. No, because we all have not gotten lobotomies, like the log cabin Republicans and others, right,

who hate themselves so much that they want to align with somebody that's trying to bring them down. But my God, folks, if you have not seen this video, just I apologize in advance, you know, because you will lose brain cells, but hopefully they'll regenerate. There are just so many amazingly awful things about this video.

And the fact that it takes a quote from Trump saying, I will do everything in my power to protect our LGBT citizens, which is something he said after the Pulse Nightclub shooting. And it turns that into what the video wants to be a villain line. And that's how the video starts. Like that is just unbelievable.

And then a lot of people pointed out, the video uses like it interspers shots of like, I don't know, famous fictional characters, including Patrick Bateman from American Psycho, which is supposed to be DeSantis in this video. Like he thinks Christian Bell in American Psycho was the good guy. And then there's a shot of Brad Pitt in the movie Troy. Brad Pitt played Achilles who was not so straight.

If you read your Iliad and if you go back to your Greek studies, it's just the whole thing is so weird. And it's probably one of the creepy. presidential videos I've ever seen. But your original point is the best one. It's just like this has become a race to see who is the worst person. And that is what this video is all about. This is an entire video of Ronda Santa saying,

I'm actually a worse person than Donald Trump. Vote for me. It's amazing. That's where we are. And again, I just want to say this to folks who believe that Donald Trump is the worst of the worst. There is not one Republican candidate for president. right now that is a good person, not fucking one of them. There is not one person that is like,

you know, oh, if they were to become president, you know, it wouldn't be so bad. There is not one fucking candidate for the Republican Party that you can say that about. So just please keep that in mind. But this, this meatball rob, no, this ain't it. It's not it. So, Andy, how are you closing out this gorgeous, beautiful, equitable week in America. I am going to close it out close to home with our beloved mayor, Eric Adams, here in New York, who day after day says or does something or is revealed to have said or done something that is like not just bad, but also like really fucking bizarre. And this time it is, as the New York Times reports, Adams,

a press conference back right after he was just elected, I believe. Two New York City police officers were killed. Something that Mayor Adam said at his press conference, he said it reminded him of a 1987 killing of a cop named Robert Venable. And Adam said, quote, I still think about Robert. I keep a picture of Robert in my wallet. And then a week later, he posed for a portrait and he held up the wallet-sized photo of Officer Venable. So now it comes out that this old photo that was in his wallet had not been in his wallet for a long time and that, in fact, after Mayor Adams claimed he kept the picture in his wallet,

employees in the mayor's office dug up a wallet-sized picture of Venable and used, I want to say they used coffee grinds to make it look oh, they splashed some coffee on it to make it look old. And it's just the weirdest, most bizarre shit. Every day he does something so bizarre. He talks about crystals and he talks about Gracie Mansion being haunted and he talks about stuff. There are two things I have been saying for a long time. One is Adams would be great in a purely ceremonial position where he had absolutely no power,

but he could go out to the club and he could talk about ghosts and he could talk about crystals. being and swag and stuff like that. And he'd be like almost like a New York City mascot. Like he'd be good at that. Oh shit. Because he's kind of, you know, if he weren't the mayor, a lot of the shit would be kind of fun or funny. It would just be quirky, except that he's a fucking mayor.

And also his policies are terrible. So we need to get him away from the actual governing part. So give him some kind of, make him the head of tourism or something like that. I don't know. Something. The other thing is New Yorkers. I'm talking to my fellow New Yorkers here. and I've said this before, we are horrible at picking mayors.

Just in my lifetime, I don't know that I could name a good mayor of New York. I've said this before. We need to just start rotating the mayorship among bodega cats. And if you want to make it like a full term and we can just re-elect a different bodega cat every four years or six years, I don't even know what the term is. I think it's four years. If not, we could rotate it every month. I don't care.

Have the bodega cat of the month be mayor. There is absolutely no way. They could do a worse job, is what I'm saying. I think, one, they, they care about food. I think that they are protectors. Yes. They can deal with a rat problem. Yes.

They're sweet to look at. Exactly. Bodega cat for mayor. I just fuck this guy. And really, again, I'm talking just to my fellow New Yorkers here. We got to get this guy out of office at the first available opportunity. Yeah, or before. You know, he could, you know, or before them, right?

Yeah. In a legal way. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, of course. I, you know, I meant impeach. Of course, of course. So fuck that guy. Fuck that guy.

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