The Daily Beast Podcast - What Makes DeSantis Scarier Than Trump

Episode Date: July 26, 2022

Is Ron DeSantis going to run for president in 2024? If he is, New Abnormal co-hosts Andy Levy and Molly Jong-Fast are of the opinion that he’ll be a scarier candidate than Donald Trump if the former president chooses to run again. Then, New York Governor Kathy Hochul talks to Molly about what she and her administration are doing to prevent ugly fallout from the Supreme Court ruling on guns in the state and her opinion on Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg not prosecuting Trump. Plus! James Obergefell, the plaintiff in the historic Obergefell v Hodges Supreme Court ruling that legalized same-sex marriage, shares the events that led to his case and why he’s “disgusted” today. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Zhang Fast, no relationship to Kim Jong-un. I'm a left-wing pundant and a writer at the Atlantic Invo. And I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart, conversations with the wisest and funniest and funniest people in science and media and politics that help make what's happening today clearer. Our world has been turned upside down, and on the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and how we'll hopefully get ourselves out of it. What a great show we have today. First, we're going to talk to New York Governor Kathy Hokel, who recently secured the nomination on the Democratic side for New York State, and she's going to talk to us about her vision for New York.

Then we'll speak to Jim Obergefell, who you of course know as being the plaintiff in Oberfell v. Hodges, which gave us marriage equality via the Supreme Court. But now we're going to talk about the jeopardy it's in as well as his right. run for Ohio House District 89. But first, let's have some fun. Andy, Levy. Molly, Johnfest, Molly, Molly, hello? Yes. Are you there?

I'm here. I'm here. Turning Point USA had a conference this weekend. Can I just say they seem to have, these conferences used to be yearly, and then they were like every six months, and now they're just every day. I know. Right? Every day, turning point. How do people do anything when there's like a concern?

I mean, turning point was this weekend. Now there's American greatness happening in D.C. where Trump is going to go back and probably, probably not set up another insurrection. And then we have a turning point. I mean, they must do other stuff besides these conferences where they all give each other COVID, I assume. They do that and bad memes, I think, is what they do. Bad memes. But you know what's interesting? Don Jr. super devastated. His mother died last weekend.

Could not do a deposition for the most recent legal problems his family business is having, but was in a fit enough state to get up and speak at Turning Point USA and say such Bon Mott's as I'm getting like 10,000 likes a post from like 300K a couple months ago because they don't. like me right now. If you are effective, effective, they are going to suppress you. He's very professional son, Don Jr. It's good that they worry about the important things, though. It's my favorite thing about Don Jr. is it never occurs to him that other things might have happened. Yeah. Like, it never occurs him like, well, I used to be on television all the time. Like, the rest of us, like, just feel bad about ourselves all the time, right? Like, if it were me, I'd be like, well, dad isn't president anymore. And obviously,

people hate me and I suck. But Don Jr.''s like, obviously it's the algorithm. That's the only answer. It can never be a change in circumstances. Yeah, it's because the wrong people always have imposter syndrome. Yes. I mean, I don't know if we're wrong to have it, but I feel pretty comfortable with it. Another great moment that came out of the Turning Point USA event was Lauren Boper, who there was a rumor on the internet, never proved really never tracked down that Lauren Boper was an escort. So as she's speaking at Turning Point, she says, contrary to popular belief, I have never been an escort for Ted Cruz.

I think she was trying to be funny. Yeah. But again, it's like, you know, it's like my, I don't eat children t-shirt is causing people to ask me questions about whether. or not I eat children. I think the peak of the event was Ted Cruz, who clearly somebody came up with this for him, right? Because this is not something that he would be able to come up with by himself.

Ted Cruz announces his pronouns are kiss my ass, which I guess is some kind of, I mean, they have one joke. I was going to say, yeah, it's the one joke. It's the one joke. They certainly tell it a lot. Yeah, no, they never get tired of it. The Bobert thing is just, I think, look, If I were married to a guy who exposed himself to teenagers at a bowling alley,

I would also be going around saying I am not an escort and I was never an escort that was hired by Ted Cruz because that's a good way to get people to not talk about the fact that my husband exposed himself teenagers at a bowling alley. So it's hard to blame her for that, I guess. That was a dumb thing that some idiot Twitter account sent out. It wasn't substantiated. No, and anybody who is slightly anybody on the Democratic side or on the left was like, yeah, this is dumb. But the thing is unsubstantiated rumors, you don't have to address them.

And if you address them during a speech, it might make people talk about the rumors again. I'm curious if listeners feel the same way I do. This is my own experience. And remember, I've like been to CPACs and I feel that I've, you know, taken in a lot of Trump. But now when I hear him, it's so boring, like, I just can't focus. Like, I don't know what happened, but it used to be I would be just horrified and would just be so, you know, affected by the crazy stuff he'd say that I'd get upset. And now I just have no bandwidth for it.

Like, it sounds like some other language. Like, I just, I have to turn it off. I can't engage with it. It just, it's like, I mean, it's worrying because it's fascism, but it's mostly also quite boring to me. Yeah, I agree. And I think that also sort of goes back to the, it's similar to that they have one joke thing. Like, it's like how many times can you listen to an absolutely idiotic pronoun joke? Obviously, this doesn't apply to the people at the conference because I'm sure they ate it up. But a normal person who's not brain damaged can only hear the same thing over and

over again before you just completely tune it out. So when Trump gets up there and says, I am the most persecuted person in American history, it's like he's been saying this now for at least since 2016. And he's been saying it like every day since 2020 or 2018. So it's like at a certain point, it's like, I don't know, you just can't. I think even even the crowd there didn't seem like too into the fact that he was saying that. Like even they were like, all right, you know, get a new. it's like when you go to see a band, you often want to see the greatest hits, but when you go to see a comedian, you usually want to see new stuff. This is much more like a comedian than a band. And, you know, you can only play the greatest hits for so long as a comedian until people are like, you know what, I've heard you make that joke 10 million times before.

I have the album. I've seen you on every late night show. You know, I've seen it on TikTok. I've seen it on YouTube. I've seen it on Twitter. Like, I need new stuff. But he doesn't have any new stuff. Like, this is who he is.

I know he, they took a straw poll there and he crushed it. He had like 79% to, I think DeSantis was like 20% or 19% and nobody else even rated at all. I think Christy Noam had 1%. She was in third. But, you know, you see these other polls that have DeSantis more or less even with Trump or close to even with Trump. And even though DeSantis is boring as hell, he's sort of the new boring. So I don't know. Maybe that's what we're seeing. And look, I'm still, you know, we talk about this every week. And I don't think either one of us is counting Trump out for 2024 because he still is a cult leader. And you never count out a cult leader while he's still alive. So I'm not counting him out for 2024, but it's certainly not an open and shut case for him. Yeah, and especially right now as these hearings continue on, and it seems at least Adam Kinsinger and Liz Cheney seem pretty comfortable handcuffing themselves to him and jumping into the sea.

I know I've used that metaphor before, but I really enjoy it. So I do think it really does seem like, I'm not convinced that a dissantis playing by Trump's rules is a better, less. dangerous situation, right? Agreed. Agreed. I think DeSantis is much smarter than Trump. I think DeSantis, part of why Trump wasn't as effective as he could have been was because he was hindered by his emotionality, right? A more effective person would have gotten up there and said like,

and known that people aren't interested in 2020 and they want to move on. But the problem is, or the problem for Trump and the only benefit for. those of us who like to live in a democracy is that Trump is not focused like that. So he just gets up there and says like the election was stolen and I won Georgia and, you know, everyone is against me. And so I do think that DeSantis is not going to get up there and say like it's really about the 2020 election. He's going to get up there and say like, you know, we need to, you know, punish trans children. And then his supporters are going to go nuts because that's what they love. And so I do think a more focused Trump with the Republican Party that's already so weak and so permissive is just going to, you know, move us into authoritarianism faster.

And, yeah, don't like it. Yeah, no. I'm also going to go on the record and saying I'm not a fan. Again, like the thing with DeSantis is he won't get up there and say, say we're going to punish transgender children. What he'll do is get up there and say, we believe in parents' rights. And he'll couch it in various ways because he's smarter than Trump in that way. So he'll get up there and say it in a way that is somehow more palatable to even the people

who are not the most rabid of the base. And that's, I think, what makes him even more dangerous than Trump. And that's the Yon game, right? That's what happened to Yonken. Youngkin was like, I'm like Trump, but I wear red fleece. But I mean, I think then there's also Carrie Lake in Arizona. The thing is it's not like there's Trump. It's like there's Trump.

And then there's like a sea of these little Trumps who are just as Trumpy, if not Trumpier. And then you have a Republican Party that is completely uninterested in keeping democracy going. Yeah, I mean, the Republican Party, the divide in the Republican Party now is the people who are, it's the, the margin. Trelegrines and the Matt Gateses who are just outright, you know, openly, they're openly Trumpy. And then you, and then you have the Desantis and, you know, Yon and people like that who are like in the closet Trumpy. And either way, they're Trumpy. It's just they're more subtle about it. And, and they're not, you know, they're not the one. They're letting the Marjorie Taylor Green's and the Gates is and the people like that, they're letting them come out and say they

want a Christian nationalist nation and that the Republican Party is the party of Christian nationalism. But DeSantis is too smart to ever say that. It doesn't mean he doesn't agree with every principle that Marjorie Taylor Green evinces. He just won't come out and say it. And so that's, you know, there used to be these other splits at the Republican Party. There was like the libertarians, and then there was a social conservatives, and there were The Rockefellers. That's all gone.

The only split now is the openly Trumpy and the closeted Trumpy. And, you know, that's not good for anybody. Speaking of Trump's, Ivanka and Jared, the first daughter and also super secret and important presidential advisor, who has her own chief of staff. We learned that last week. And her husband, the Middle East peace bringer, on. depositions and they said they had just a delightful time saying stupid stuff, which now the January 6th committee is just going to tweet out all the time. It's like a real case for like,

if you think you're the smartest person in the room, it might be time to open a book. Yeah, yes. You're right. You know, Jared's problem is exactly. that I think we've talked about that before. He's under this delusion that he is the smartest person in the room. And, you know, when that's your delusion, you end up saying and doing things under oath that you shouldn't say and do. But look, the committee is on it. I mean, you know, Congresswoman Luria put out this video. It's like four-minute video that basically sort of repackages and re-contextualizes a lot of the stuff that,

we've seen about how then President Trump kept changing and crossing out stuff in his one-seven speech. And it's good that they keep doing this. I mean, if they're not going to have another hearing until September, so they're being smart. They're continued, they're not just going away for two months, which I think is very important because, you know, we as a nation have, you know, we have the attention span of a gnat and speak for yourself. What's less than a gnat? I know. I'm a good day. I have a nat-like attention span on a good day. But, yeah. Look, I think it's good that they keep doing this. And I think, you know, one of the things that we see in this new video is there was a line in his proposed speech for January 7th where he would call on the Justice Department to go after, to prosecute the capital, the rioters, the insurrectionists, call them whatever you want.

and he crosses out that line before he gives the speech. And I think that it's always good for us to see stuff like that. It's important to understand that these were his people. And, you know, despite the pathetic efforts of the Marjorie Taylor Greens and others to suddenly try to say that this was actually Antifa, or Antifa, depending on how you like to pronounce it, they knew that these were their people and they knew exactly what they did. And as soon as they were out of any personal danger, they, uh, because they're cowards,

you know, Marjorie Taylor Green, people like that, they're cowards. And when they're in personal danger, the truth sort of comes out and they know that this is scary shit. And then the minute they're out of personal danger, it's like, oh, these, this, they were, you know, they were vacationing. So it's important to see that, you know, just more and more evidence of what they knew. They knew exactly what was going on. And it, and they, and they wanted it. to happen. Right. I mean, I think that's pretty clear. I think we'll see more and more of that as the hearings go on in September when Trump also probably likely announces and also Georgia maybe or maybe not indicts. And also Steve Bannon tries to fight his sentencing, which comes up in

October. It's going to be a very exciting fall filled with lots of. of members of Trump world trying not to go to jail. Kathy Hochle is the governor of New York. Welcome to new abnormal Governor Hockel. Thank you, Molly. Glad to be on, having a chance to speak to your billions of listeners. So I know it's going to be great. I'm going to forward to it.

You know, we interview a lot of governors, but we haven't ever interviewed my governor in the state that we both live in. So it's very exciting. I actually heard you speak before Roe was overturned at a Physicians for Reproductive Health event. One of the things that I didn't know was just how committed to choice you are. Can you talk a little bit about that? Oh, committed to choice. This has been a lifelong journey of mine.

I come out of a very conservative area part of Western New York, which is, you know, in sub-state, it's different in New York City. I'll just put that out there. And even when I first ran for local office as a 35-year-old, young mom. I'm running for town board. I was told if I didn't take the right to lifeline, that I would have no chance of winning. So that's where I come from. I did not take the line. I won, but this has been part of my journey for many years, even when I was in Congress a decade ago, one of the reasons I was not returned to Congress is that I refused to vote against the

Affordable Care Act as well as the contraception mandate. So I've focused on this even representing the most Republican district in New York in Congress. I leaned hard into my support for reproductive freedom, abortion rights. And Molly, like people of my age, this was the fight of my mother's generation. And I carried the torch because we always talked about this every year at our rallies, that there could be a day someday when Rose overturned, even though we thought that was pretty unlikely to happen. And my daughter's in early 30s, and now this is something that she has to deal with, as well as, you know, a brand new granddaughter. I never thought that my granddaughter would have fewer rights than I did or my daughter did.

And that's what we're facing. So, no, I'm committed. I'm all in. And I'm going to continue talking about this because people need to know this is a basic human right. And we'll fight like how to keep it in New York. So another thing that happened in this just horrendous Supreme Court session was that they basically said, you know, that they weren't going to let you guys legislate guns. You've really fought back on that.

Will you talk a little bit about that? Oh, yes. Another example of this Supreme Court is taking away the right of a state to protect its citizens. And what they struck down was a law on the books for 108 years that said that we could limit people

who had concealed carry permits. Meaning we don't think that people should be wandering around Times Square in New York City, pack and heat, having guns in their pockets, and using them if they're shown by a stranger. So we had a law to protect New Yorkers, allowed Second Amendment rights. It was always never in question. And with this Supreme Court, this extremist group of individuals who are dead set on taking

away all of our rights, that took away my right as a governor to deal with this. So what I do? I called in the legislature that was not due back until next January. I had a special session. They said, we have a lot to do to deal with guns on our streets. And this law, it's been on the books and Teddy Roosevelt's brother, we need to fix it. So what we're doing right now, and these will be in effect very shortly, we increased everything required for a background check, including we now want law enforcement to review social media

records to see if there's any signs that individuals should not be able to have a gun or have a concealed carry permit because they show, you know, engagement or participation in terrorist groups, as have been defined by some of the groups that are out. there terrorizing people today, taking away their rights, etc. So we focused on new ways to deal with increasing the standards for giving gun licenses, as well as identifying sensitive places where we could prohibit guns. And those places, and we're writing them right now, will include a lot of places. I put Times Square on that list. I don't think you should be concerned about that when you're heading off to a play or just walking around and enjoying what we have here in the city.

I can't limit everything. The Supreme Court said you cannot, for example, write off the entire Manhattan and say that you can't have guns there, but we've really found ways to protect people in public places and places of worship and schools and even restaurants and retail. What I did was say that we'll presume that property owners do not want you to carry a gun under their premises unless they have a sign inviting you to do so. In Manhattan, for example, our restaurants, if you don't see a sign that says concealed carry gun holders, welcome, you will not be able to carry a gun into them. So we did that. We tightened our red flag laws. These are areas that are very strong contrast between myself and my opponent in the November election.

Who supports all these, you know, support the Supreme Court on both these decisions. But that's what we're up against. You know, we have to keep fighting back every step of the way. They're trying to take away and our rights to protect our citizens. And I'm just going to keep fighting and say, no, not here, not ever. Even our mayor was pretty upset about this gun decision, right? Oh, yeah. Think about this. We're fighting hard to protect the safety of our citizens, get legal guns off the street.

How far is it going to make it for law enforcement to stop crime, help us do the right thing? And when we have people be able to walk around with guns in their pockets because of the Supreme Court decision. So, no, he supports this. We're working together to protect public safety. You know, ensure that criminal justice is very, it's important to us, protect people's individual rights, make sure that, you know, law enforcement, you know, conduct themselves properly. But we also have to make sure that our citizens are safe, not just feel safe, but actually

be safe. What do you think about Alvin Brad deciding not to prosecute Trump? Well, my understanding is that it's still under review by his office, but I think there's plenty to work with. There's a lot of, a lot of information that has come out. It's come out from his activities in New York and what he has done in his business space, but also what he did, January 6th, I mean, it is, you know, the evidence is overwhelming that there needs to be prosecution. So I anticipate and hope that there'll be a review of those, you know, the additional information that the office will take action. And I don't comment on what district attorney should or

shouldn't do, but in this case, there's a lot of evidence to work with. Were you surprised? I mean, when those two people from the office came forward? Yeah, I was. I read about the news like everybody else. And that's, you know, since that time, I've heard that he's, you know, willing to look at the information once again. So we'll just see what happens next. We have this Democratic primary coming in August. Can you explain to me, since you are the governor, why we have two different primary dates? I'll do my best, Molly. I'll Do my best. This defies explanation other than a court said it has to happen. What happened was is that the court, our court of appeals, highest court in the state,

determined that they had to go back to the drawing board for the lines that were drawn for the state Senate, as well as our congressional seats. They said that they did not pass constitutional muster that they were gerrymandered for political advantage. Now, I'll reserve my commentary on that, but, You only need to look at what's done in a lot of other states. But this was because of a deal that Cuomo struck in 2012, right? Well, I'll just say that he had a big hand in deciding who's on the court. Right. And the majority, the four to three decision, decided that the decision should be turned back to the court where the case originated.

And the Republicans who brought the case obviously went to the most conservative judge they could find in a very rural area of our state. So it went back to that judge. And that judge found a very friendly Republican special master to draw the lines. And guess what? We are in a situation with not the lines that the duly elected legislature wants, but what a conservative judge and special master wanted. But the reality is the governor's race, the attorney generals race, Senator Schumer's race, all these primaries as well as our assembly,

the other house along with the Senate, the assembly races were all held in June. We just came through them because those lines were not declared unconstitutional for the assembly, but they were for the Senate. So the Senate and the Congress, the congressional races, those are all going to be held the primary August 23rd. It is absurd. We hope it never happens again. I'm going to work hard to try and fix it before the next redistricting a decade from now.

But it is a real mess. And it's unfortunate because I believe it's going to suppress voter interest. They're not going to understand. And didn't I just vote? Why do I have to vote again? And do I vote in November or not? I mean, this is, I'm working hard to protect voting rights. We passed sweeping changes with John Lewis voting rights law that couldn't happen in Washington. So we did it in New York. So we're very focused on creating access to the ballot box, overcoming any hurdles, making it easier people to vote, especially in communities of color. But sometimes you have the judges who have a different view of life. And that's what we have to deal with here. Do you feel like you have this unique opportunity that Gavin Newsom has to of being this very large, very blue state, where you can sort of do stuff? I mean, you see Republicans have sort of decided that states are countries now. Right, right. You know, we do have an opportunity to lead in an extraordinary way.

And when people start giving up hope on the Democratic Party or politics in general, we need to just remind them. There are leaders out there. and I'm new to the business. I've been governor for less than a year, but we've made extraordinary changes and people like Gavin Newsom and the other Democratic governors, so I just met with a couple of days ago.

They are all true visionaries many times having to fight against Republican-dominated legislatures, people like my friend, Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan, and Tony Evers in Wisconsin, what's happening in other places like Pennsylvania. So we are all in this together,

but I do think that this is the, defining moment for places like New York and California. We are leading hard into the green energy future, making historic investments, protecting our citizens and future generations from the effects of climate change, how we can prevent that from happening, but also on social justice issues and sensible gun laws, which we believe we have a right to do and an obligation to, as well as standing up as a safe haven for people in search of reproductive freedom. I announced that even before the decision came down that we put $35 million to support our abortion providers in New York, anticipating that people will be coming from places like Ohio and others coming to New York,

needing these services. So I wanted to make sure that we were ready for them, as well as making sure that our providers are protected from any liability or exposure. We are against any extradition of our providers and protecting their identity. So we've done a lot changing laws to make sure that, you know, we are leading edge on this issue as the first woman governor of this state and someone that takes these issues very personally for my own family, that we lead by example and try to inspire other states, maybe the purple states, to see the way it should be done. So that is a responsibility that people like myself and Gavin Newsom have. We take that very seriously. So Jesse and I are obsessed with this idea that originally there had been a plan for a seawall in New York to prevent

flooding. Do you know anything about this? Well, we're trying very hard to put resiliency features in place. I have a $4.2 billion environmental bond on the ballot this November. I hope we'll get to support for that. And one part of that is to, it's not a big wall around the city. I don't anticipate that's what's going to happen. But there are areas of vulnerability, Long Island and Staten Island. And we're trying to make sure that they're ready for the next big one. And that does include some resiliency measures, in some cases, walls. But I don't think we'll ever have the resource to put an entire wall around a high enough wall to protect all the burrows. But we've taken it very seriously. And the sort of green around the city, right? Right, right, right. And there's ways that we can

use the opportunity we have to build back resilient, build resiliency. So when the next storm comes, we are not wiped out. We just literally one year ago when I was a brand new governor, a second week on the job, I had two hurricanes to deal with, one that led to the loss of life of 13 people who were flooded in their homes. Our subways were flooded just less than one year ago.

We had more hurricanes in New York than Florida had. So New York State is getting battered by climate change, as our places like California. So we are always working with engineers and environmentalists and people are in the climate protection space to figure out ways that we can build up the resiliency that we have to have. You know, there's no doubt about it that the water levels are rising. The severity of the storms is increasing. So we have to protect our citizens.

Thank you so much, Governor Hockel. All right. Good talking, Molly. Take care. Bye-bye. Thank you. Jim Obergefell is the plaintiff in Obergefell v. Hodges, as well as a candidate for Ohio District 89. Welcome to New Abnormal.

Jim. Well, thanks for having me on. I'm so excited to have you on for any number of reasons, but mostly because it really feels like the moment right now to talk to you about same-sex marriage. Talk to me about where you are right now. I'm kind of feeling terrified and worried and concerned about our constitutional right to marry the person we love and to have that marriage recognized throughout the United States. You know, the concurring decision from Justice Thomas in the Dobbs decision concerns me greatly. And we fought this fight. Marriage equality is only seven years old. And here we are yet again worried about our relationships, our marriages, our families. And I'm scared. I'm disgusted. I'm disheartened. Lots of adjectives come to mind.

For those of us who aren't constitutional scholars, will you walk us through a little bit about how you got to be the face of marriage equality? Absolutely. And the nice thing is, I'm far from a constitutional scholar myself. So all I can do is make this as easy as possible. So it really happened because of a series of events that I could have never imagined. And really the big driver of this was when John, partner, we were together almost 21 years when he was diagnosed with ALS. And in April of 2013,

he started at-home hospice care. And we lived in Ohio. And Ohio was one of those many states with state-level defensive marriage acts. So even though we had talked about marriage early on, probably by 1994 or 95, we talked about marriage. But we agreed for us, it couldn't just be symbolic. It had to mean something. It had to carry legal weight. So we just assumed it would never happen. Well, on June 26, 2013, I was standing next to John's bed. Again, he was an at-home hospice care. Completely bedridden, had no abilities other than to say a few sentences at a time and use his right hand a little bit. But I was standing next to his bed holding his hand when news came out from the Supreme Court that in their decision in United States v. Windsor, they struck

down the Defensive Marriage Act. And as I'm standing there holding John's hand, it struck me that for the first time in our life together, we actually had the opportunity now to get married and have it carry legal weight. So I spontaneously proposed to John. It wasn't something we had talked about. We hadn't even discussed it since the early 90s or mid-90s. But when I realized we could get married and have it mean something, I did. I just spontaneously said, John, let's get married. and luckily he said yes. Well, then we had to figure out, well, where do we go? Because I couldn't take him six blocks to our county courthouse

because Ohio had its defensive marriage act. So we settled on Maryland. And for me, the driving thing for me was making sure I could keep John as safe and as comfortable as much as possible. So Maryland worked well because it was the only state that did not require both of us to appear in person to apply for the marriage license. So that meant I could go get the marriage. license come home, then John and I could go back solely for the purpose of getting married in

Maryland and come right back home. And that's what we did. We chartered a medical jet and we got married inside that airplane on the tarmac of the Baltimore, Washington International Airport. And we flew home. And that was all we wanted to do. We wanted to get married and we wanted to be able to call each other husband and have it mean something. Well, there was a story about us in the local newspaper. And because of that story, we met a local civil rights attorney in Cincinnati, Al Gerhardstein. And during our conversation, he pulled out a blank Ohio death certificate and said, now, do you guys get it? When John dies, his last record as a person will be wrong because Ohio will say he's unmarried and Jim, you won't be listed as his surviving spouse. Well, he was right. We hadn't

thought about that. We knew Ohio wouldn't recognize our marriage, but that was kind of an abstract thing. So that broke our hearts. But I think more importantly, it made us angry. So when he asked if we wanted, to do something about it. We discussed it and said, yes, we do. So eight days after we got married, we filed suit against the city of Cincinnati and the state of Ohio in federal district court. And 11 days after we were married, I was in that courtroom, federal court, Judge Timothy Black for the hearing on our case. And later that same day, July 22nd, 2013, Judge Black ruled in our favor and said, Ohio, when John dies, you must recognize their marriage on his death certificate. Well, John died three months later to the day, but he died a married man. And after he died, the state of Ohio

appealed. And our case, along with another case from Ohio that Al Gerhardstein had, which was about birth certificates for children of same-sex couples and cases from Kentucky, Tennessee, and Michigan, all around the right to marry or to have marriages recognized, we all went to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, where we lost. And after that loss in district court, in the appeals court, Al asked me if I wanted to keep fighting, and I said, well, of course I do. If I don't, I'm not living up to my promises to love, honor, and protect John. So Al filed cert. He appealed our case to the Supreme Court.

And because he filed the appeal 10 minutes before the Tennessee attorney filed the appeal on that case, that's how it became known as Obergefell v. Hodges. Oh, wow. Yeah. I was in the courtroom on April 28th for oral arguments. And then on June 26, 2015, when the Supreme Court, court ruled in our favor. So it wasn't something John or I had ever dreamt of, had ever thought would happen. We weren't interviewed as part of a selection process. It truly was just a series of

events that took place that brought me to that courtroom on June 26, 2015. Mike DeWine is held up a lot of times as a Republican, but a more sane Republican. those of us who know a little bit about what's going on in Ohio, no, that's not true. Can you explain that to our listeners? Oh, Mike DeWine likes to say he's a moderate Republican. Other Republicans like to say he's a moderate Republican. That is an out-and-out lie. I mean, no surprise.

I don't have the warm fuzzies for Mike DeWine, considering he was the Attorney General at the time we filed our lawsuit, and he fought us all the way to the Supreme Court. So no surprise. I'm not a fan of Mike DeWine. But he is not a moderate. Whether or not he has any morals or a spine, if the extreme part of the Republican Party says, Mike, this is what we want you to do. Mike does it. I'll give an example. There was a mass shooting in the city of Dayton several years ago. And so there's seven or nine people who were murdered in this mass shooting. And after that, he called the mayor of Dayton, Nan Whaley, and said, I will be doing something about this. Well, what he did about that was to sign bills that did away with concealed carry licensing. He signed bills that allow or signed a bill that allows teachers to be armed in the classroom. He's done all of these things that instead of actually addressing gun violence, they do nothing but follow the NRA's playbook and what the extreme part of his party demands that he do.

even though he told the mayor of Dayton, who's now running for Ohio governor, instead, even though he told her he would do something about this because it was a horrible thing that happened in Dayton. So that's just one example. Mike is not a moderate. Yeah, and he's also been just shockingly anti-choice in a way that I think is above and beyond the kind of wild conservative stuff. Oh, absolutely. If you are a woman, someone who can't. can get pregnant in the state of Ohio. Mike DeWine is absolutely not your friend. He will absolutely support anything that comes up to deny women the right to control their own body, to make decisions about their own body.

You know, we had a 10-year-old girl who was raped in Cincinnati who had to go to a neighboring state for her care. And that's just simply wrong. And Mike DeWine is fine with that. You are running for the Ohio House of Representatives. Talk to me about that. Right. So I am running for the Ohio House of Representatives, and much like going to the Supreme Court, this isn't something I ever thought I would do with my life. But I also have to say, because of my experience with the Supreme Court, it changed me profoundly. And I have to continue working, trying hard to make the world a better place, to make positive change. Positive change. So back in 2015, an elected official in Pennsylvania in the Pennsylvania House said, Jim, people are going to start mentioning public service. to you, do me a favor when they do, please don't just say no. I hope you'll at least think about it. So he planted the seed, and this was actually on July 4th, 2015, and he was right. People started

saying, Jim, you should run for office. Jim, when are you running for office? I would vote for you. This was family, friends, strangers. So the idea was there, and it was in the back of my mind, but it was really moving back to my hometown of Sandusky, Ohio last year. Coming back to my roots, coming back to where all five of my siblings still live, many of my nieces and nephews, the friends I've had since the age of three, coming back here and having a local politician, he formerly held this seat, Chris Redfern, he asked me, he said, Jim, what would you think about running for the Ohio House to represent this district? And I discovered I was finally in the right place at the right time for me to really seriously consider it. And as I did, I realize, you know, I have a chance to work to make things better. I have a chance to be a voice for marginalized communities in the Ohio House, which is a Republican super majority, dominated by the extreme part of the Republican Party. And I realized, yes, this is this is the time and place for me to do it. And this is a way for me to keep fighting to make things better.

And it's a way for me to do the right thing. So I said, yes, I want to do this. I want to run for office. How did it change you, the Supreme Court case? You know, in so many ways that experience with the case and the Supreme Court changed me. The most obvious one, you know, I was never an activist. John and I weren't activists. We were checkbook activists.

If we wanted to support something or wanted to be part of making things different or better, we did that by writing a check. And it took being in that situation, having something happen and all of those things that came together. for me to say I'm doing this and to become an activist. And ever since then, I've dedicated my life to being an activist. I co-founded a wine label that supports organizations fighting for equality. It's called Equality Vine. So in our six years since our first wine was released, we've donated $250,000 to our partner equality organizations. I have been on the board of directors for Sage, which advocates for older LGBTQ plus people.

I'm on the board of the GLBT Historical Society. I formerly worked for family equality, which advocates for LGBTQ plus families and for queer people who want to form families. So I've become an activist. I mean, that's probably the biggest change, biggest outward change, is that I went from being a corporate trainer,

a software consultant, real estate agent, to now being an activist. And that's just who I am now. And in fact, you know, last week I spoke in front of, or was that the week before? I've lost track. But within the past two weeks, I spoke in front of or testified in front of the United States House Judiciary Committee on the threats to LGBTQ plus equality as a result of that Dobbs decision. So that's really for me the most obvious outward change in my life is that I am an activist. I'm a purposeful activist now. And I think John, my husband, would say, Jim, you have changed so much in that we would go to parties when he was still alive, and I was the one hiding out in the corner while John was the one going through the room, charming everybody. And I'd just be in the corner thinking, can we leave? Is it time to go home yet? I'm an introvert. I still am an introvert, but I certainly learned how not to be as introverted as I was. So that's been another change for me, a profound change. And it really is just this need to continue working to

make things better. I know how upset I was about Roe. When you saw Thomas, I mean, now the Congress is trying to codify same-sex marriage, I hope it works. But when you saw that opinion from Thomas, how did you feel? I was angry. I was honestly disgusted that a sitting justice on our nation's highest court would point blank say these other decisions. the right to birth control, the right to marry, the right to intimate relations and the privacy of your own home, for him to specifically call those out and say these should be reconsidered when he conveniently ignored loving. But that's right. That's a Supreme Court decision that personally impacts him. I was angry and just appalled that a judge, a justice on the Supreme Court would

do this. To have this continue, you know, Senator Cruz came out saying, yes, Obergefell is wrong. It should be overturned. And it's the first time in more than 200 years that the states haven't been able to define marriage. Senator, I will refer you to that same case. Justice Thomas seems to forget Loving versus Virginia. If things were up to the states, it still could be possible that states made interracial marriage illegal. So it's just, it angers me. because there's this movement, there's this movement in the court and in the Republican Party that they think everything has to be interpreted and defined as of the time the Constitution was written more than 200 years ago. And that's a recipe for disaster. That's a recipe for sticking our country

in the past. And that isn't good for anyone. That puts every bit of civil rights progress we've made in this country at risk. So true. Thank you so much, Jim. Well, Molly, thank you. I have enjoyed this, and thank you for inviting me to be on. Andy, Levy. Molly, Chongfast. Yeah, we're very melodious today. Who are the people who have earned your ire? He's a guy who shares a first name with me, and that's always annoying.

But I believe he goes by Andrew, which is also always a red flag. There's so many Andrews I can think of right now. Like, is it Andrew Giuliani? Is it Andrew? No, go on. It is. It's quality. Right, exactly.

Yeah, there's a whole bunch of bad Andrews. But this guy is the, he's the CEO of Gab, which is this sort of neo-Nazi social media site. I don't know if I'm allowed to say neo-Nazi. They are anti-Semitic, white nationalist and neo-Nazi. I think legally I have to say that where they get mad. Yeah, I wouldn't want to make them mad. No.

It's important not to overreact when it comes to fascism, the rise of fascism. Yes, or underreact. The CEO. of this site is a fairly rabid anti-Semite. Also hates gay people. Unsurprisingly, because one bigots are generally bigots across the board. So he wants to exclude Jews from the movement. He's speaking here of Dave Rubin and Ben Shapiro, two lovely, lovely individuals.

And he says, these people aren't conservative. They're not Christian. They don't share our values. They have inverted values from us as. Christians. This is a Christian movement, and this movement needs to be centered on the gospel and truth of God's Word and of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior and King. That's the only way this is going to work. Just say you hate Jews. Just say you hate Jews. Say you hate Jews. Yes. Tell me you hate Jews without saying you hate Jews. Now, all of this would just be, this is another, you know, right-wing

fuckhead, except for a couple things. One, he is a consultant to Doug Maastriano. You may know, of him as the Republican nominee for the governorship in Pennsylvania. And Mastriano has paid $5,000 to Andrew Torba's site, Gab, for consulting services. And also followers. Yeah, basically, apparently the Huffington Post reported that the payment means that every new account that is created on Gab automatically follows Mastriano. Not a bad deal. Not a bad deal.

That is wild that you can do that. It's absolutely amazing. Sounds like tech bullying. Tech censorship. It's just amazing that you could join a website and they make you, it's like Tom from Myspace. Yes. Whatever happened to Tom from Myspace. How you instantly followed Tom on Myspace.

Our younger viewers can Google that. But again, so the important thing is, you know, I'm sick and tired of being told that these people are not the mainstream and that they're stream. and that they're extremists and we pay too much attention to them. I'm going to say this again. The Republican nominee for the governorship of Pennsylvania has this guy as a consultant. Well, and he's campaigning on Gab. That's as mainstream as it gets. That is literally as mainstream as it gets.

I don't know how else to say this. So fuck Andrew Torba, fuck Doug Mastriano. And while we're here, fuck Venture Hero and fuck Dave Rubin for, breaking bread with people like this in this because in Ben Shapiro's case I think he is more outraged at the idea of two men getting married than he is at the idea of uh anti-semitism and Dave Rubin who is gay doubly should not be on these people's team and yet they both are so fuck everyone involved in this story Molly except me because I'm just a messenger yeah all right I like it. You want to know who my fuck that guy is?

Yes, please. My fuck that guy is a man you may have heard of. His name is Ron DeSantis. He's the governor of Florida and he doesn't do math because math is woke. No, so he's very excited. I don't know if you know this, but Republicans are extremely upset about inflation. They're not happy. They are definitely, they think it's Biden's fault, even though it is happening right now,

all around the goddamn world. but somehow this is Biden's fault. So Ron DeSantis has figured out how he's going to solve inflation. He is going to send people checks for $450. Like, I mean, the thing, again, inflation caused by money, okay. So obviously he didn't learn that at Harvard. But the other thing I would like to point out besides the fact that inflation is actually caused by money is that he's giving. $450 for each child. It's like the child tax credit. Jesus fucking Christ, the child tax credit,

which Democrats came up with and Republicans decided to let expire. Oh, you have to be fucking kidding me. Like, I'm telling you, he's doing the child tax credit while complaining that the reason that there's inflation is because of Joe Biden. cannot make this up. And if you did, no one would believe it because it's so stupid. Thank you. And good night. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from the Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics and science. We'll help us understand what's happening to our country and the world.

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