The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz - Hour 1: If LIV-PGA Isn't a Merger, Then What Is It?

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

Meadowlark Media CEO John Skipper and Nothing Personal's David Samson are back with another episode! Let’s start things off with LIV/PGA merger. Everyone’s talking about it. Everyone’s interested. But what is happening behind the scenes? (10:15) This brings us to foreign investments in bigger sports. The NBA has seemed okay with the idea of sovereign fund money. Should this be something that should be welcomed? (22:40) Messi is coming to America. What does this mean for MLS? What does this mean for Apple? (35:20) Is the XFL going to work? Will spring football ever work? Are you willing to tell The Rock it can't work? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to Giraffe King's Network. This is the Dunlabel Tarshou with the Stugat Sputcast. We are lucky enough to have gotten John Skipper the chairman and CEO of MetalArt to spend an hour with me I'm David Samson from nothing personal with David Samson and we've got quite a few topics to go over It's been a minute since I've been able to corral both John and I at the same time and I don't want to waste a minute John You doing all right? Yes doing very well here in New York City Are you ready because we have to start

at the top of the show. It's been covered by Dan. It's been covered by me. But we've got an angle here that's a little different on the PGA live. I can only imagine your reaction. I was thinking when the news got announced in the most clumsy of ways.

I was smiling at the possibility of a sport which you were eager to invest in, all the sudden being sullied by Saudi money. Were you so happy not to be the SPN when this merger was announced? Well, I was happy to be where I am before they announced the merger, so I'm still happy to be here. I think you're asking whether I'm happy to avoid having to make a decision about whether I want to buy the rights for a nonprofit golf tour, which is now at least

partly owned by the Saudi Arabian sovereign wealth fund. That's what you're asking, right? I'm really just interested in the fact that you have to do business with Saudi Arabia and Saudi Welfare. That's what you're asking, right? I'm really just interested in the fact that you have to do business with Saudi Arabia now. There's so much money involved and PGA realized they had a problem. When you have an entity that, according to Jay Monehan, was bleeding money and litigation, was worried about losing more and more players over to live and the old adage if you can't beat him, join him. And that's what he did.

He basically announced that we couldn't beat you, so we're deciding to join you. And the decision has not gone over well with either the players or the constituents, but we have not actually heard from any of the broadcast partners. And I can't figure that out why haven't we? Because I don't think any of them want to risk alienating somebody before they understand what is actually going on. I don't think to date it's possible to actually understand what has really happened here. We've heard contradictory things, right? It was a merger, then it wasn't a merger. We're hearing that the chairman is from It was a merger, then it wasn't a merger.

We're hearing that the chairman is from the Southern World Fund, but the PGA controls the tour. I don't know what they've actually done, and I think we do need to acknowledge that you and I both have heard the news this morning that Jay Moynihan is recuperating from some sort of physical issue, And I'm not inclined to speculate or it's not my business what it is, but we should be sensitive to while we talk about this, that

we wish Jay Moynihann well, though I don't know if I wish he'd well in this merger or not, because I do believe it's hard not to suggest that he is capitulated. I don't know if they really are at risk for dramatic legal fees, but he's capitulated. He has said, I'm going to decide that given the amount of money they have and given the amount of controversy I'm now involved in, I am going to join forces. But of course, it has not worked to date. All that is done is create more chaos, more non-unity, more questions. And I also think it's very possible this will be run off the tracks at this point by governmental agencies or other people. And I think the brought to your original question,

the broadcast networks, they love golf. So they're not going to get in here and make some rash remark that is going to create problems with their relationship with the PGA tour and whatever form it emerges here. But the broadcasters were not so excited to do business with Liv, which had a bunch of great names. It was an interesting concept team, Gal 54 holes.

Everyone makes the cut. The best they could do was buy hours on CW. So clearly the broadcasters have already aligned and decided that they wanted to side with PGA and not with Liv. But then all of a sudden, you're gonna have to deal with both. I just think there's a reckoning coming and we could talk about Jay Monahan, but I'm not wishing to mill.

I don't want him to be sick, but that should not stop us from talking about the absolute disaster that came in his announcement. I hope it didn't lead to him getting sick obviously. It just leads to him in my mind being incompetent and he's been covering up ever since. And the whole government issue, he actually met his employees, John.

I don't know if you saw this. It was great. He did a meeting. I was picturing him pulling into the office and all the employees there wondering, an merger. Am I going to lose my job or is there going to be shrinkage? And him saying, Hey, don't worry. This isn't a merger.

First time that had been said that it wasn't a merger because the government was saying, if this is merger, we get to take a look at this. And now, Jay Montana is saying it's not a merger. Did you ever meet your, I was thinking about, I had to do this with our employees when we were moving cities and you had several thousand people on the phone, their lives impacted, are they gonna be Montreal

or Miami or California or what? But this is a whole different thing. Did you ever do full wide meetings with your employees? We did, we did it with some regularity to sort of talk about the state of the state and to answer questions and try to communicate. Well, I'm assuming he had that in mind when he met with his employees, which is to try to reass. Well, I'm assuming he had that in mind when he met with his employees,

which is to try to reassure them, give them some insight, be a communicator. On the other hand, if there is a lack of clarity on actually what is going on, it is very tough to be clear communicating. And what they seem to be doing seems to be the very definition of a merger, doesn't it? They they are taking I don't know what they're doing if they're not merging. Are they creating brand new tournaments? It's not going to include. I'm assuming they're they're merging. Why do you have some information to suggest they're not merging other than they're saying they're not merging? Well, that, that's a lagging indicator to me. But yes, Greg Norman is saying he of no information, because he wasn't even

consulted, is saying that live lives on. The PGA is saying that I don't know if live is living on, but the PGA tour lives on stronger and healthier and better with all the majors and all the tournaments, everything stays the same. But what they're telling the government and senators like Senator Blumenthal from Connecticut, was he a senator when you were in Connecticut doing business with the SPN to remember? Yes. So did you have to deal with him?

Um, I don't, the way that's put, I didn't have to deal with him. He actually did come by the office and visit more than once. He was interested because he is being as a very large employer in his state. And as you know, it's a state that has a lot of problems creating new jobs for itself. So they paid a lot of attention and he was a pleasure to deal with. So we've had to deal with centers and I do view it as a thing because you have to let everyone know when a center is coming and everyone's going to be on the best behavior and there's certain things you can talk about not talk about. We wanted to give them autographs but we couldn't because of their value etc etc. But this guy, Richard Blumenthal who I've not met, he is out front of this issue saying that he's very concerned that anything Saudi Arabia involved that has

to do with running an American institution. That's something the government has to take a look at, which is why J. Monahan has been saying, no, no, we're in charge. You remember what he said upon the announcement, however dim it was, that PGA has the majority, so they've got all operational control, but the fact is we don't know that at all. We do not. And it's a very, I don't know of many situations where the people with the money aren't in charge. In this case, we have money. Have money. An interesting question is whether if this had started with a secret meeting where the Saudis decided to put a bunch of money

in as a minority owner of the PGA tour, they might never have a problem. Right? You were asking about broadcasters. Broadcasters will probably accept that, oh, Saudi money is in the PGA, they raise their purses, they create more opportunities for players to make money. Fine, I don't have a problem as a broadcaster then.

I'm not saying me, I would have a problem, but I don't think we're going to find that most of their current broadcasters have a particular problem with the Saudis as a minority owner in a tour. Of course, again, I'm puzzled by the idea of a minority ownership in a non-profit. Well, it's a non-profit entity. It's not a foundation. I know you're hung up on this because you think the PGA is for profit and you're wondering why you'd give them so much money as a sponsor or a broadcaster. But they're passing the money through. Don't you worry. Your money's getting into good hands. Right into Tiger sands. You could have just written a check right to Tiger Woods.

But you got us to a place where we need to get, which is you've said that you good with Saudi Arabian money, sports washing, Katari money, sovereign funds. There's a lot of talk right now about them being allowed to be limited partners, as you just mentioned, in sports teams. And that's coming, make no mistake. So you're right.

Then in a way Saudi Arabia is a partner now in golf and they're gonna be a partner in basketball. Adam Silver announced that they will allow sovereign fund investment in basketball teams. And I smirked, I smirked because Adam Silver has a job to do that is not, he's not interested in whether the money's dirty or clean. He's got a job to do that is not, he's not interested in whether the money's dirty or clean. He's got a job to keep franchise valuations going

and to keep people able to pay billions and billions of dollars for franchises. There's only so many Matt Ischbias. And so he's gonna allow sovereign fund money in the NBA. And when you're with him at lunch, you're saying great job Adam, I like it. I would call one with one thing. I do think Adam, you suggested he didn't care

if the money was dirty or not. I think he does. I think until we see some investments and see where they come from, that would be a bit reckless to suggest that we know he's going to take so-called dirty money. I don't think you and I've even agreed on what makes money dirty or not.

Are you different, Jamie? The money's not dirty. Well, wait, is the Saudi Arabian money dirty that's going into PGA? You've been spending your whole time talking to me about how terrible they are. We do find, maybe to help with this, to find what you mean by dirty money.

They made that money by drilling for oil and selling it. That's not dirty. The concerns are not that the money is dirty. The concerns are that we are complicitous in the regime if we're willing to take their money. The money is not dirty. You've been very public in your position about money from Saudi Arabia, from Qatar, from UAE and the views that you have of their political positions. And now there's been an infiltration into North American sports through golf, and now it's going to be in one of the four major sports, which means it's going to be in all of the sports soon.

You know it, right? Do you agree with that at least? I would rather wait till someone has actually taken the money before I criticize their taking it. They're right. No, no, I'm serious. I mean, I will criticize the PGA tour. They have capitulated and decided they are willing to be

in business despite protestations, very overt protestations that it was not appropriate. I believe that the head of the PGA tour said that no one ever had to apologize for being on the PGA tour. People are going to have to apologize for being on the PGA tour pretty soon. Do you think the NBA will have to apologize when there's a limited partner that's a sovereign fund?

If it's a sovereign fund of Switzerland, no. I'm not talking about Switzerland, John. I'm talking about Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE. They haven't taken that money yet when they do. I'll be happy to discuss it. If I were asked me, would I take it? I would say no, I would not take it. So you're at lunch with Adam. And Adam says, John, we've been friends a long time. I've got a job to do here.

You say what to that? I say, we will still be friends no matter what you do. You are suggesting you're going to take investment. Are you telling me that you're going to let the Saudi Arabians put two billion dollars into the league? Yes, I am. If you are, I'm going to tell you, as your friend,

I don't think that's a great idea. I know you've got a job to do. I think the NBA valuations will continue to grow, whether you take money from the sovereign wealth fund of Saudi Arabia or not. That's what I want to tell you. That's what I want to tell you. That's what I want to tell you.

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I'm not a big fan of regimes that are homophobic, misogynist, anti-Semitic, and that chop up journalists. And when those people come to me and say, hey, how about I invest in your company? My answer would be no. I'm not either, but you're gonna have to come to grips with this. And the reason is the owners go to Adam as they do to rob Manford and baseball and say, I want to do X. I want to buy a network as Ted Leonis sister or Jerry Reinsorff did.

I want to buy another team as Ted wants to buy the nationals, let's say, or Jerry Reinsorff would want to buy the nationals, let's say, or Jerry Ronsworth would want to buy the Chicago Bears as an example. I want a liquidity event, the valuation of my team, I want to put in the billions and in order to get anyone to come in as a limited partner, because no normal person would want to be a limited partner at a $2 billion valuation and put in $200 million for an autographed basketball. But this sovereign fund, they're more than happy to. How do I say no to that when the owners come to me and say this is what they want? Now, how do you respond to that? First of all, I think some of the owners will similarly have reservations about this.

I don't think everybody there is only there to take whatever money comes along that makes their valuations go up. And I do think there are some things more important than money. By the way, I'm not suggesting anything other than I don't think it's seemingly, I don't think it appropriate. I think what the PGA tour has done is not a good idea. Do you think that doing business in China is seemingly generally not particularly not? It's a fascinating subject, John. And I'm not putting you on the spot nor are you putting me, but there is a limit.

The problem with sports right now is the numbers have gotten to a place that I don't think any of us imagined they would get to. You've got to get money from somewhere. That's really all we're talking about. PGA tour went through. If they could have found a partner to invest in them in order to cover litigation costs in order to protect them, in order to protect them in order to make players happy. They wouldn't have, they would have wanted to crush live, not combine with them.

I, I thought they, I actually thought they were crushing live. The live couldn't get broadcast contracts. Nobody came to the tournaments. They'd not generating any particular revenue. I don't understand why they didn't wait them out and win. Because they're unlimited. It's like when any lawsuit, I'm sure you did this running a big company. When you have an individual sue, you can just discover them to death.

You can just lawyer it. You can just drag it out. And it's way better to sometimes have someone a crew fees. I used to do that often Where there be somebody so we are Are we aware of how much money PJ tours spent defending itself so far? They're claiming 50 to a hundred million dollars Spent already and also in terms of not just defending, but they also filed suit Spent already and also in terms of not just defending, but they also filed suit. So they it's both they were counter suits going on.

It was a bit of a legal mess with an unclear finish actually, but he's right. Jayman is right. They dipped into their reserves for this and his point is that the sovereign fund, there's no dipping into their reserves. They don't need to drill another hole to get different oil. They could have litigated this to the end of time. It's used out in the palms. The result is that the power of the threat of litigation to force a merger with their renegade golf tour by the August PGA tour. That's what they did. They used litigation to force a merger.

So no one has drawn that and I will not draw those two points. I will say they are related, but not. It is just a rationalization, isn't it? The rationalization. The purpose though, John, in my opinion, right? I think the purpose for PGA is that they realize that they had a problem with live because of the players. And the irony is, Jay didn't even tell Tiger Rory, but the players were the ones who had been complaining and you say that they had crushed live. I don't think the players felt that way. The players who were on live, they were able to come back and win tournaments.

What did Capca win? He just won a tournament. Coke, I don't know if you remember which tournament he won, but he to come back and win tournaments. What did Capca win? He just won a tournament. Coke, I don't know if you remember which tournament he won, but he just came back to win a tournament that was big. And there was something that happened with another live player. And the purpose, the point was they thought that if you took the Saudi Arabian money from live, that you were going to be excommunicated. But then they're winning the PGA championship, and they're still heroes. And now why wouldn't you have taken that money?

So you can be Rory McElroy and say that I'm principal alone. And then all of a sudden have to change your mind when they're your partner. It's not good. Oh, I admire that Rory McElroy and Tiger Woods held their ground and said, we believe in the PGA tour and we're not going to take this money.

And I admired that. And by the way, I haven't noticed that they have agreed yet. They haven't actually been public. Have they with what they think about this? Roy McAroy answered questions actually and said that for the good of the game, they're going to be partners and I hope hope they're gonna be good partners, but he doesn't regret that he didn't go, because that's of course what the media was trying

to get him to say. Tiger has not said a word that I've seen, but I don't know that I'd call it a smart business decision when either of them did, because the other guys took the money, and now they get to be back part of the PGA. But in terms of taking money, players decide that all the time.

Are they gonna take money? Are they going to take money? Did they go for the money? And my position has always been as cynical as I may be that if you offer a player a dollar more than they're offered anywhere else, they will go. There's an example that happened in soccer where Leo Messi said, outright, I was offered way more money to go to Saudi Arabia. And he was taking the moral high ground, though he's paid 30 million dollars to pay the money. said outright. I was offered way more money to go to Saudi Arabia. And he was taking the moral high ground, though he's paid 30 million a year

by Saudi Arabia to be their ambassador. So I don't know what high ground he was taking, but that he wasn't gonna choose Saudi Arabia. He was choosing Miami and your friend Don Garber got quite the big news as he attempts to become one of the big four that Messi is coming to Miami. When you saw that news, knowing that MetalArc's footprint in Miami, actually with everything that's been going on in Miami with the heat and the panthers, it's a really good time to be associated with Miami, were you just over the moon when that happened? Um, I was happy for all of our guys in Miami.

You got to enjoy the NHL and the NBA runs, which I believe ended it five games. So yeah, it was fun. It's fun in the studio. Yeah, when Miami's winning, it's fun when Messi's coming to Miami. By the way, I don't think Don Garber's trying to be part of the big four. I think he's trying to create a big five. So he's not trying to replace hockey. I was thought that he was trying to get above hockey into the big four.

A place like in Africa, the safaris, right? There's the big five animals you try to see. It's not like one animal can say I want to make it the big six. It's just the big five. Well, there you go. It's an interesting metaphor. I was going to use accounting firms. It used to be the big five. Well, there you go. It's an interesting metaphor. I was going to use accounting firms. It used to be the big five accounting firms.

And they are merged, by the way, in non-mergers. And maybe they're nonprofit companies too. But what are the great ways to know? I just have no. A merger, John, that I love is when they combine the names. That's always a good way to know that two firms have merged, like, and then one of the names disappears over time.

So it was Pricewaterhouse, Cooper's, and there was Viacom CBS, or Warner Brothers Discovery. They all come together, but eventually it just becomes Max, and then people forget. But Messi comes to Miami. And the part of the deal that interested me is that Garber had to do the deal.

It wasn't Miami, into Miami doing the deal. It was Messi and MLS cutting the deal because Messi is getting a piece of league pie. And I was mortified. I was completely against this. It's one thing what they did with Beckham where he has an option to get an expansion team, which Messi, which Beckham got and turned it into inter Miami actually coincidentally. But what they're doing with Messi is what Nike did with Jordan as seen in the new movie air, where they're giving messy a piece

of the Adidas pie and a piece of the Apple subscription pie. How does Apple agree to that? Well, I just assume they believe that his presence will generate more income and consequently, they're happy to give him a piece of that. It's just commission, right? He's commissioned on subs, a commission on ticket sales. I'm not sure what's commissioned on. I don't actually know the it's the subs. So Apple with their streaming rights deal. What they're saying is that any people who join Apple. Subbs for MLS, not Apple TV, who do the MLS package, he'll get a piece of it. And so it's but four, but four messy bean in MLS, these people were not becoming subscribers,

they weren't buying the package. And now they are, is that not a dangerous precedent when you're running a business, I'm not willing, I love paying commission to salespeople, but that's, that's really almost an equity piece in my mind that MLS should not have allowed because what stops the next player? What about him, Bope?

They're saying that he's going to leave PSG as a free agent. Wouldn't he deserve a bigger piece than even messy? I don't think Nike regrets giving Jordan a piece of Air Jordan, and I'm not sure Apple will regret giving messy a piece of incremental money. The more interesting question to me is whether bringing messy and is the best use of that money, right? Ultimately, to me, what MLS has to do is improve the quality of play in the league. They've got to upgrade. They're ultimately the only major sport in the United States that has to contend with the fact that there are other leagues in the world that are better than they are.

There is nobody who plays American tackle football better than the NFL. There's nobody who plays basketball better than the NBA. There's nobody who plays basketball better than the NBA. There's nobody that plays hockey better than the NHL or baseball better than the MLB. The MLS, which has made astonishing progress, however, has several leagues around the world who have better players and better teams than they do. So the question is, is bringing Messi in going

to decrease that delta? Or would it bring in 25 players in who are 24, 25, 26 years old and have their career in front of them? Would that have been a better expenditure of money? So you make this decision all the time and we made it as teams. Do you sign a free agent or do you develop your own players? It's way better to develop your own players, but you need a whole lot more patience. It's a very, it feels good. It's like a drug when you do a free agent

because you feel the immediate impact, but then it goes away quickly. And I view messy to MLS as becoming a drug addict because it's gonna feel really good right now. And Inter Miami has all these new followers on Instagram, and there's all this excitement. The ticket prices have skyrocketed. Every ticket sold out.

You can't watch Messi play in the US, because every Inter Miami game, both home and away, is completely sold out. So you're gonna have to go on the secondary market and pay Taylor Swift-like prices. But at the end end of the day that is not a sustainable model to me So I was completely against the messy deal It's interesting. My first reaction was negative and I've come to believe that it is probably a positive Financial deal. There's one flaw

my friend to your G. buying a free agent is feels great. In football, you have a unique thing happens. You don't have to wait and develop your own players. It's a world market, and they are all available. They're all available. You could go tomorrow and buy to you with enough money. You could go tomorrow and take 25 players out of the Premier League and put them in the NLS. I thought the entire issue overseas is that they all have academies. They all get young players in and they're all building their teams from within. That they are at the very top of the league or they're doing it the middle of the league and the bottom of the league.

But if you do it the middle of the league and the bottom of the league, you're developing that player to sell to somebody else and make enough money that you can buy six more players and actually feel the competitive team. Why is that not a bad plan? I ran a whole team for 18 years based on that plan. Develop players and when they get expensive trade them or let them go and replace them with players who are better, younger and cheaper. Yeah.

That's a that's a fine plan. And you executed it very well. Got criticized every day. Crush. Well, of course, because it's not really the American way, right? We're not developing players to send our favorite players off to other teams. When Brighton in the Premier League has great players, they end up all with almost no choice but to sell those players to to man city and man United and Liverpool or Real Madrid or Barcelona, right? And that doesn't really happen

in the same way in the US, right? No, it does happen in the US. That's what low revenue teams do. In a non-celerate cap league, although there's financial fair low revenue teams do in a non-salary cap league, although there's financial fair play overseas, but in a non-salary cap league, like baseball, that's exactly what happens. And it's not you're watching it with Oakland. This week we saw the reverse boycott. We saw what's going on with the Oakland A's who have, you know, are, are, an all-star team of players elsewhere, though many teams do.

But that is not uncommon where teams have to churn. If you're not the Yankees or the Dodgers, you're churning players. And it seems like MLS bringing in Messi, their point was to buy them legitimacy. And I tried that to buy legitimacy by signing a bunch of free agents, and it just failed terribly.

And I'm just wondering at the end, when we look back on this, do the LA galaxy, MLS, that to buy legitimacy by signing a bunch of free agents and it just failed terribly. And I'm just wondering at the end when we look back on this, do the LA galaxy, MLS, let me, I can say it a different way. The Beckham deal 16 years ago, did it accomplish what they thought it would accomplish by bringing Beckham to MLS? Well, it's a good question. It may have partly just because messy, I mean, Beckham is still around, right? He's now an owner, that's good for the league.

I suspect his being an intermime was a factor, not the defining factor for Messi going there. So I think it advanced the cause. I just believe they should be at the same time looking not to buy Ibrahimovic at the same time looking not to buy Ibrahimovic at the end of his career back I'm at the end of his career it feels it it may be a smart stunt but it feels like a stunt Hello, someone listen to me, I need help

I'm in Barcelona and the creatures are everywhere if you listen to me, you listen to me, listen to me, you're not the eyes y las criaturas están por todas partes. A la isluck, a la isl. Escucheis lo que escuchéis, tapados los ojos. La calle vamos todos a cieras, pero lo más aterradores no saber en qué confiar. Uí de las personas que os piden que mireis. Si queréis seguir convido. Estreno en Netflix el 14 de julio. Te atreves a ver. before you start listening to it about rock and his investment in the XFL and how he had a chance to turn it around. It's failed so often. I actually do not believe in the XFL in any way

and we got news the other day that they are losing money, hand over fist. Some reports up to $60 million in losses. And the XFL is claiming that everything is great. You don't have to worry. And are you you're opinion of the XFL? I assume is not a good one. Um, I do not believe that professional American tackle football is going to work in the spring. Everybody believes it is so successful. Let's do it year round. Can you name one player on any of the XFL or USFL teams?

I cannot, but I may be in the minority, but is it Chad Ocho Sinko? He may be on one of the teams or I could be aging myself. I have only heard of the rock. So Chateau, Ocho Sinko, instead of taking social security, decided to keep playing football in the spring football league that should tell you about the likelihood of success

is that Chateau, Chosinco, might be in the league and you're not even sure. Matt Cokka may be more informed than you are. Matt, can you name a single player in the USFL or the XFL? My guess is that he absolutely cannot, but he'll scream in my ear. No, he absolutely cannot. Okay. So he cannot. So Lindsey, go and sit in your Lindsey, can you name a single player? Okay. Not a good sign. The only good sign is that Ocho Sinko is not in the XFL. He can confirm that, but not anybody. He can't confirm anybody's name, but it's a business and the rocket, whether he invests

his own money or not, he got investors to buy it and they have a season and he's trying to become more successful and make man at this. And they're claiming there's going to be a second season, yet they're firing a bunch of their employees. And they're saying that they're going to make it a seasonal business. I understand the... It would be like people picking fruit. They'll only work when the tree is ripe.

They'll bring them in. They seem to me a good candidate to transition to the PGA status as a nonprofit. They don't need to transition to nonprofit. They're already there. They are not profitable, but they're according to one of the co-owners that were extremely well-capitalized for the long term. This is not just an endeavor that's going to fill up a portfolio and one day we flip it and we're out Side note parenthetical of course not because they'd flip it for a loss

This is legacy. This is the long game. Everybody who's ever gone bankrupt has always said we're in it for the long term And then they stop including the last iteration of the XFL I don't know how it survives unless a broadcaster will bail them out and nobody has stepped up so far to bail them out. Would the NFL have an interest in bailing them out? I don't understand why they would, no. Because they're not, this is the first time, they're not against it, they're trying to cooperate.

They're trying to make it work. This is the first time they're not against it. They're trying to cooperate. They're trying to make it work. Well, I'm happy they're trying to cooperate. I don't think they're contributing money to it. They don't need it. There's always this rhetoric that's all this will be the minor leagues. They have minor leagues.

It's called Alabama and Georgia and USC and Oregon. They have a great minor league system and it costs them zero dollars. So I do not know why they would need a spring football league. The spring, I just, the concept is flawed and it's irresistible because people love football so much, but it's a flawed concept. So the broadcasters, the networks could put an end to it

if they stopped, if they gave no platform, sponsors could put an end to it. But they need hours. Aren't you always looking for spring and summer hours? No, there's a lot of good hours in spring. My recollection is that's when the NBA plays their playoffs. That's when hockey plays its playoffs. Baseball starts. There's women's softball. There's the men's basketball tournament.

There's the masters in the US open. There's the the French open, the Wimbledon. I don't, the spring is not particularly bereft of sports content better than spring football. What would be the reason that you would not or would invest? Are you saying the only reason you would not is that you don't believe in the concept of spring football, or you believe the NFL is such a stronghold on the football fan that there's no room for them to like another league. I think it is a flawed concept because everybody who can play in the NFL plays in the NFL. So by definition, you have a bunch of players who can't play in the, well, because they're not good enough.

Uh, and there are a bunch of players which we just prove that nobody knows their names. Uh, and so consequently, they're not going to watch them play. It's the same reason. I believe that three on three basketball is a flawed concept. It just, you know, watered down versions of great sports leagues are not particularly attractive. Nobody's looking for a second tennis circuit, far as I know. attractive. Nobody's looking for a second tennis circuit far as I know. Then why did he spend giving 20 million? I no longer being employed there. I have no insight into why they would know. When anybody ever came around, when I was there talking about a spring football league, I politely passed.

And since they moved on, they have politely said, we'll dip our toe. And is it not unheard of to think that Roger Gidele called up Jimmy and said, Hey, you're going to have to throw 20 toward the XFL. That seems unlikely to me. So as part of the new deal with the NFL, the new broadcasting deal, it's out of nowhere that the NFL is cooperating with the XFL and the XFL got this $20 million deal from ESPN when ESPN has gotten a few things from the NFL, including its own game, its own ESPN plus game, an exclusive window, some flexing, totally unrelated in your mind. Um, I think they are mostly unrelated.

I don't think the NFL has enough interest to call in a favor, whether or not somebody thought, gee, this will make the end. I don't even think anybody speculated this will make the NFL happy. Um, if you ask the NFL if they'd take $20 million less, if you help fund the Spring Football League, do you think they'd say yes? Well, they did in theory, because ESPN allocated 20 million to it, and they wouldn't have done it

without the NFL knowing. Do you feel this is a great question? Would you feel, so you would not talk to the NFL, you're their partner and you would not talk to your partner about an investment you would make with a potential competitor. Oh, yes, if I knew that the NFL was opposed to the league, I would probably decide that it's not,

since it's not likely to work, it's not worth not taking a flyer on that. Though I never called them when I was approached about Spring football and said, what do you think? Should I do this or not? And they never called me. And my guess would be, though, I don't know that they did not call anybody at ESPN or Fox or I think these guys are all hoping that lightning strikes by the way everybody Takes a call of if Dwayne Johnson I'd take a call if he called me I'd talk to him So they take the call they get excited. They think that maybe it's gonna work this time because a bunch of celebrities are involved and and And they decide to spend $20 million.

I don't understand. To tell you the truth, I don't understand why they spent $20 million on it. I'd be afraid to tell Dwayne Johnson the truth about what I thought about the XFL. Well, we already have, but you just were assuming that he's not going to show up at our doors. Well, I'm assuming a whole lot of people are going to show up at my door after this show. So that's a working assumption in general, but it's, you know, the rock comes in with a suit and tie and I'm tempted to say, hell yeah, the XFL is great. Let me just make sure Roger's good.

So that's why I would be calling Roger. Good, darling. Generally, everything that Dwayne Johnson has done other than this has worked. If he came in and asked me if I'd give him $20 million for a movie, the answer will be hell yes. I'll definitely take that. He came in and said do you want to put on, put on spring football games? I would say politely Mr. Johnson, I'm going to decline. What if I told you that you had a better chance of getting your money back from XFL than you would from a movie in general as a general matter

Well, I'm not talking about a movie. I'm talking about a Duane Johnson movie Even a duane My check they all make it least 20 million dollars the first day. So Yeah, but that's gross and you know the difference so these these movie channels roast and you know the difference. So these these movie channels. We can talk about the accounting that's used by studios. I would love to do a show about how studios do accounting and how they deal with when people have a point or profit sharing on how you can easily, as I've done in business, make a company not profitable with a slight of hand that is not illegal, but very easy to do.

So I think it's pretty easy if Dwayne Johnson has a piece of a movie to show that it's not profitable. I just think it's a, there's a reason. I'm going to, I'm going to go on record John and tell you that the ESPN definitely spoke to the NFL before giving NextFL 20 million. And the next time, if we can ever confirm that in any of your cocktail parties or any of the famous people you hang out with, if you could confirm that one day for me, that would be great.

Will you try to remember that? Um, not really. Come on. If I was going to run into somebody, it's not really the question I'd ask them. I really like being your partner, John. Thank you so much for your time. This has really been a slice of heaven. We'll do this again.

There's so many more business topics to discuss. We did not get to all of the ones that we wanted to get to. We will do this again at some point when we can get you again for an hour. So thank you so much, John. Thank you, David. ones that we wanted to get to. We will do this again at some point when we can get you again for for an hour. So thank you so much, John. Thank you, David. Thank you, Matt.