The Liz Moody Podcast - 5x Grammy-Nominee Julia Michaels: “I Just Got Tired Of Feeling Like Anxiety Was In Control”

Episode Date: October 9, 2024

Julia Michaels is a prolific songwriter and singer, with multiple awards and nominations including Grammys, AMAs, and Billboard Music Awards. She discusses stage fright, anxiety, heartbreak, and more. Singer-songwriter Julia Michaels sits down with Liz to open up about her career and personal journey with anxiety and depression. Julia discusses her life’s path from feeling sidelined in her family to her breakout moment writing theme songs for Disney shows, and eventually penning hits for artists like Selena Gomez and Justin Bieber. She shares how overwhelming fame caused panic attacks, prompting her to seek therapy. Julia dives into her chaotic childhood, her songwriting process, the pressures of performing live, and the methods she uses to manage anxiety. The conversation highlights her vulnerability and honesty in art and life, and introduces 'Notebook', her subscription platform aimed at fostering a safe, supportive online community for fans. 00:00 Introduction 02:39 Julia's Early Life and Career Beginnings 06:16 Songwriting Journey and Breakthroughs 10:53 Struggles with Anxiety and Mental Health 19:46 Impact of Fame and Relationships 27:30 Facing Stage Fright 28:47 Balancing Songwriting and Singing 29:56 Public vs. Private Self 31:16 Embracing Vulnerability 32:38 Childhood Influences on Anxiety 35:39 Coping with Depression 36:49 Touring Challenges 40:29 Daily Routines and Health 49:52 Creating a Safe Online Space 52:32 Conclusion Listen to My FULL Anxiety Story + The Tools That Help Me The Most. For more from Julia, you can find her on her new platform Notebook or on Instagram @juliamichaels. Listen to her music and learn more about her upcoming projects at www.juliamichaelsofficial.net. Ready to uplevel every part of your life? Order Liz’s new book 100 Ways to Change Your Life: The Science of Leveling Up Health, Happiness, Relationships & Success now!  To join The Liz Moody Podcast Club Facebook group, go to www.facebook.com/groups/thelizmoodypodcast. Connect with Liz on Instagram @lizmoody, or subscribe to her newsletter by visiting www.lizmoody.com. This episode is sponsored by: AG1: visit drinkag1.com/lizmoody and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs today. Puori: head to puori.com/LIZMOODY and use promo code LIZMOODY for 20% sitewide. Osea: get 10% off your first order at oseamalibu.com with code LIZMOODY10. Himalaya Wellness: use code LIZMOODY for 20% off at himalayausa.com. Cymbiotika: use code LIZMOODY on cymbiotika.com to get 15% off plus free shipping on subscription orders. The Liz Moody Podcast cover art by Zack. The Liz Moody Podcast music by Alex Ruimy. Formerly the Healthier Together Podcast.  This podcast and website represents the opinions of Liz Moody and her guests to the show. The content here should not be taken as medical advice. The content here is for information purposes only, and because each person is so unique, please consult your healthcare professional for any medical questions. The Liz Moody Podcast Episode 272. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Julia Michaels, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I had convinced myself that I wasn't allowed to be a singer in the family. Yeah, my first live performance was the Olympics with Kygo in 2016, which was... How has fame impacted your anxiety? If I've learned anything in life, it's just how adaptable you can be. I think the wellness really comes from therapy and from working out and from really trying to eat better. If you were to say in a nutshell what you've gotten out of therapy, like why she's wonderful, why it's great, what would you say?

Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast, where every week we are sharing real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a best-selling author and longtime journalist. Today, I am so excited to welcome the amazingly talented singer and songwriter Julia Michaels to the podcast. Julia has been nominated for five Grammy Awards, a ton of VMAs, Billboard Music Awards, you name it. She is the writer behind so many of your friends. favorite songs. Seriously, go look at the playlist written by Julia Michaels on Spotify. We have got

Sorry by Justin Bieber. We have got so many Selena Gomez songs, including my personal favorites, lose you to love me. I would sing it. I love it so much, but I don't want to torture you with that. We have Bad Liar, which is also so good, such a good Selena Gomez song. She has written for Ed Sheeran, Doa Lipa, Sabrina Carpenter, Olivia Rodrigo. She wrote and sings on Cut with Marron Morris, which I cannot stop listening to. Oh, I keep wanting to sing, but I'm not going to do that to you, I promise. I could go on just listing Julie Michael's songs, but that would essentially be the entire episode. She is also the artist behind some of my very favorite songs, including What a Time, the mega hit issues, which is just one of many examples of her being so open and honest and raw in her art about her mental health journey, which is one of the themes of this episode where you're going to get real and vulnerable about Julia's experience with anxiety and depression, how it is showing up in her life, and what has helped her the most. I loved talking to Julia. She is just a once-in-a-lifetime talent and also an incredible human

being. And I am so excited to share this conversation with you. Julia Michaels, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to have you here. I think you've done more for getting anxiety and mental health conversations into music than anybody else I can remember recently. That's so nice of you to say. Thank you. So we're going to dive into your whole mental health journey on the podcast today. We're going to dive into your tools. We're going to dive into how that shows up in your songwriting. But let's just start at the beginning. Can you tell us about your childhood insofar as it has sort of impacted your mental health journey? My childhood. Wow. We're really going there. Yeah. My childhood was chaos.

Just super chaotic, really broken. I was homeschooled for middle school and high school. How come? I started doing like acting when I was a kid. And my mom would pull me out of school a lot. And so I was going to have to repeat the fifth grade. If I went back to school, I was homeschooled for the rest of fifth grade to make up all the sort of electives and subjects and stuff that I had missed. And then I went back to school for sixth grade and I was just kind of like, I don't like this.

And so then I was home school from middle school and high school. And I was, I started writing songs pretty actively by the time I was 16. It was better because then I wasn't spending eight hours of my day sitting in a classroom. I got to like go to the studio and write songs and do exactly what I wanted to do, which was really nice. What part was chaotic? Family dynamics weren't very good. I wasn't really close with my siblings. I wasn't really close with my dad.

My mom had moved back to Iowa for a while. And so I just kind of felt like I was sort of floating around in my own family. And I found a lot of solace just in my bedroom writing. That was sort of my safe space in a way where I could just write songs. and I wasn't really like a vocal kid, really. We never really dealt with confrontation, never faced anything. And my way of facing things or my way of talking about my feelings

was really just writing songs. How did you know how to write a song? That's such a good question. I have no fucking clue. I've always loved music. The one thing that I can say about my family was they were really eclectic musically. My dad really liked to like classical.

rock and my sister was really into pop music. We're all from the Midwest, so my mom grew up on country music. And my brother liked Lauren Hill and Green Day and stuff like that. So we just had so many different musical genres in my house growing up. So music was just always around. I just always loved music. How I learned to write songs, I have no idea. I used to write poems a lot. And I would write like the alphabet on the top of every page so I could find different rhymes for different words. Oh, that's interesting. And yeah, I would just try and write poems about everything. I just for as long as I can remember, I've been writing songs.

And then when I was about 12 or 13, my mom got me a piano and then started to just fuck around and find out on the piano. And then just started putting on my palms to chords that I had just essentially made up. I didn't even know what a chord was. You're just like, this sounds like. Yeah, I just like, this sounds nice. That's so interesting. I know. I love how you're like, music was all around me.

So, you know, it just happened. And I'm like, well, music was all around me. And I've never been nominated for a Grammy. So that's cool. That's cool. One of my life mottos is never be the one to say no to yourself. I credit it with my entire career with everything good that's ever happened to me. And from what I can tell you, had a really big never be the one to say,

say no to yourself moment as a teenager where you pitched a song to Walt Disney and that's how your sort of professional career began? Yeah, so I started my career writing songs for the background of television and film. If there was a really popular song that was on the radio that the television station or the show didn't have a budget for, they would hire people like me to write the like low budget version of a song. How old are you? I'm like 16 at this time. How did you know that existed as a job? My sister is also a singer. She would go around the city and sing demos, basically for anybody that doesn't know. When I was starting out, if a songwriter couldn't sing like a quote-unquote pop artist that they were pitching the song to, they would hire someone

that could sing it so they would have more of a chance of pitching it so the artists could hear themselves. My sister would do that. And so I would just kind of tag along and hang out with my sister at the studio. And my mom, I love her so much, but was like kind of a bit of a momager. We went to a studio one day. She said to the songwriter, she was like, oh, my other daughter can sing too. Like, honey, sing for her. And I was like, oh, my God, stop. Leave me alone. And I ended up singing a song on the piano. And she was like, do you like to write songs? And I was like, I like to pretend I can write songs. And one day my mom was picking me up because I was going to go to the mall with a friend. And she went the opposite direction. I was like, mom, Allison's like,

waiting for me at the mall. She's like, here, you're going to go write songs? I was like, she should probably call her and tell her I'm not coming then. And yeah, I went to the studio and started writing with her. Her name's Jolene Bell. And she was like one of the first people to believe in me as a songwriter. And her and I were just writing every day together. She had all these connections and she had a connect at Disney. And there was a new show on Disney called Austin and We wrote a couple songs and they ended up going in the show and they were like, you should try for the theme song. And so we wrote a song. We waited a week, didn't hear anything.

We waited two weeks. Didn't hear anything. And then we're like, hey, if we need to do anything else, if we need to write six more songs, like just let us know. And they emailed us that day and we're like, actually, it's yours. And I went to like a homeschool program, kind of like a charter school. and I needed math to pass. It was my last class to pass. And I was so bad at math.

And I got the call in my class. And I was like, bye y'all. I'll see you later. Was it like that, though, in terms of your career? Was this the tipping point that you needed to start getting the songwriting opportunities that would launch you to the stratosphere? No, actually, because that was all sort of in the, like, TV and film world. It wasn't until I started writing with Lindy Robbins that I started

understanding like pop music and writing for other artists. She had been writing songs with like Demi Lovato and stuff at the time. And she had heard a demo that I had sung for someone else because I had started doing demos because I needed to pay my rent. And she was like, we should write some time. And so the first I think like four or five songs we did together was, you know, Miss Moving On for Fifth Harmony and a song called Slowdown for Selena and a song for Demi. Her and I had really quick chemistry together.

It was kind of because of that that I started doing. doing more and more sessions and meeting more and more people and getting my name sort of out there. What's the process like? Is it like that viral Taylor Swift and Jack Antonoff video where she's like, get away car? And he's like, the hotel. And then they're like kind of riffing off each other. And then all of a sudden you have this song or like what's the process of songwriting with somebody else like? It really depends on the person and who you're with. I think as a songwriter, you're a bit of a comedian. You're just who you need to be for somebody else that day. It is an active service. I picture you guys like therapist.

But I've even heard you say like artists will come in with their journals and they'll be like reading aloud from their journal and you're trying to very quickly get them into their deepest, deepest feelings. Yeah. I mean, not always too. Songs obviously don't always have to be deep, you know. But like it is a really beautiful thing when you can go into a room with a complete stranger and there's like this sense of trust that it's going to stay there until it goes on a song for everyone to hear and then they get to explain it for everybody else. No, but it is a beautiful thing. And sometimes you need to like step into a role where you need to do some of the heavy lifting. And sometimes you don't have to do anything at all except just help shape something.

It really just depends on the artists or the people that's in the room that day and how you need to be utilized. You have this time. Your career is kind of taking off. You write this theme song. You're writing songs for all of these really big artists. But that's also when your anxiety was ramping up as well, correct? Yes. Can you tell us about that?

Yeah. My anxiety started, I think it was like 2015 or 2016. I had done songs that had gone like back to back, number one at radio. So it was like, good for you for Selena. And then it was sorry for Justin. And then it was hands to myself for Selena again. And I think that the pressure to perform or the expectation that I was going to like go into a room and sort of like blow people away or something. with songwriting.

It had become like really overwhelming and obviously nobody ever put pressure on me other than myself. And internal pressure is just hell. And it got to a point where I was having panic attacks like on the regular where I would be in a session and I'd be like rocking myself back and forth because I thought if I stopped I was going to pass out and then I was going to die. I had gotten so overwhelmed and I remember calling my manager Becca who's like the love of my life and just being like if I don't take pills.

or go to therapy or something like, I can't do this. This is not how somebody should be living every day. Nobody should be experiencing panic attacks every single day of their lives. And she was the one that found me my therapist and really helped me figure out why and where it comes from and just all of these things. And it really helped. I don't really have panic attacks anymore. I still have mad anxiety.

all the time, but I don't have panic attacks like I used to. Thank God. Thank God. It's the worst feeling. I had one pretty recently, one of my first ones in a very long time. And I was like, oh, I fucking remember how terrible this is. They're so brutal. Yeah, I had one in Finland where I went to the hospital. I'd had many panic attacks at that point in my life, but I still was so sure that something was very physically wrong with me. And they gave me a paper bag to breathe into. Yeah. Which is so embarrassing. When you go into the hospital, you're like, I'm pretty sure I'm dying. And they're like, here's a paper bag.

I have definitely ended up in the hospital after a paying attack. Because there's no rationale. You're like, I'm dying. Something is wrong. Because it feels very physical. It feels very physical in your body. Yeah. You're like, I can't breathe.

My heart hurts. Something is wrong. Did you reach out to your manager for help before or after you had embarked on your own solo career as an artist? This was before. Okay. But my anxiety and my panic attacks were still. happening. Because I think I was 22, 23 at the time when I really started to feel all of this. And then I was 23 when I signed my record deal. I didn't really grow up performing.

I really grew up learning how to sing in the studio on a microphone where I could really hear myself. And if it was terrible, I could sing it eight, nine, ten times over until I got it right. And then it was like, oh, you have to sing now in front of everybody and in front of a bunch of people that are going to judge you. And it was like, I even like tried to run away one time because I was terrified of having to sing in front of people. Wait, what do you mean run away? I was just like so nervous that I like got so overwhelmed that I just found a staircase and just cried a bunch and was just like hoping that nobody would find me. Did they find you? Yeah, unfortunately.

And then did you go up on stage? But it was like a really wonderful person that found me, so it was okay. Did you still perform? I did, yeah. And how did it go? I think the first year of performing, I think I just sort of like blacked out. I was just under so much stress that I just don't even really remember a lot of it. I want to linger on that moment, that time in your life a little bit.

I myself, and I think a lot of other people will feel. feel anxiety and let that keep them from going after their dreams. You in that moment could have stated as just a songwriter or not even just a songwriter. You were an immensely successful songwriter. You were making great money. You were working with great artists. You really were at the peak of your game. And with your anxiety, you still took this risk and did this scary thing.

How did you make that decision? I think I just got tired of like feeling like anxiety was in control of me. I was like, this isn't fair. You don't get to just, like, rule my life. And then I started having conversations with fans about how they had anxiety. And I want to do it for them, too, so they know that you can do anything, even though, like, it's fucking scary. And I just ran with it, honestly. If I've learned anything in life, it's just how adaptable you can be.

Anything is possible, even though it's terrifying. You just have to believe that you can get through it and do it. And once we started doing our own shows, because we had spent like a good year opening for other people. And then you're really trying to like win the crowd over. It's like a blind date with 15,000 people. Like you're like, oh my God, please don't hate me. And then once you have your own shows and it's like your people and they know every word and they're there because they have a shared emotion with you. you, a shared feeling with you, it's just different. It makes the anxiety so much less when you,

like, have finally cultivated your own community of like-minded people. It's like, oh, we're all anxious and depressed. And we all just want to have somewhere that feels safe and loving and warm. Like, amazing. I would love to be there with you. You say we're really adaptable. I think about how my anxiety acts up when I travel, where I'll, like, end up in a hotel room and the AC will be making a weird noise or the bed will be a little funky or I'll hear the elevator opening and close. I'll be like, I'm never going to sleep again. I'm going to be awful tomorrow. I won't be able to perform. How does being on the road impact your anxiety? That's a good question. My anxiety is the worst when it's a few things. One, when I don't sleep very well. Or if I'm not taking care of myself properly,

if I'm not eating the way that I should be eating, what really gets me less my anxiety, but more the feeling of being alone. Because even though you're surrounded by people constantly when you're on tour, obviously your fans are there, it feels like a lot of giving, but not a lot of tangible things that you can sort of take with you. You get out on the stage and it's really loud and there's so much noise and like so much love and it's so beautiful and there's so much happening. And then you get on the bus and it's like silence.

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So I haven't toured in a long time because my last tour is really, overwhelming for me. I toured for too long. How long do you tour for? That tour was seven, almost eight months of the year. And I think when I signed my deal, I felt like I had to do it. It felt like a requirement at first. And I just didn't do anything on my own terms. It really took a toll on me mentally. And so if I were to tour again, I would tour very, very different. But towards the end of my last tour, I started bringing out friends and then like sleeping with me and being on the road with me and stuff that really helped me it's so interesting because i do think that we look at these people up on stage and we're like they have everything we could dream of they have all of these people shouting their

songs back at them and all of that you're performing in a theater where like you have to shower at the theater and it's this old crusty and it's like you and 14 of your other crews and so like all of you are taking showers at different times, eating cold sandwiches and cereal on the bus, because everything's closed now. You don't have time to, like, go and get something. And we're all exhausted. But it is what it is. It's a price you pay for seeing, you know, the fans be so happy and excited and get to spend, you know, time screaming and crying and, like, being in their feelings. And so there's, like, a lot of pros and cons, obviously. How has fame impacted your anxiety? I don't think of myself as famous. So it hasn't, to be honest.

Do you have people coming up to you? I do. But every time someone's come up to me, it's always like really respectful. Okay. Or they come up to me and they're like, are you? I'm like, I think so. Last time I checked I was. The last time I was going to Nashville and someone stopped me in the Starbucks line. And we had just a really nice conversation. They were going to Georgia to see their family. I was like, I'm going to Nashville to see mine. I was like, cool, have a great day. Like, lots of love. You famously talk about the ups and downs of relationships in so many of your

songs. I've got a lot of them. You got a lot of them. I'm curious how you feel like your mental health has impacted your romantic relationships over the years. That's a great question. Each relationship is different, but sometimes I get nervous that my anxiety and depression is like really overwhelming, that it pushes people away. Because as much as I try to pretend like I have everything together and I'm like a positive person, I think physically it comes out of me to the point where I have anxiety. I had a heart issue that I had like a surgery for.

I had my gallbladder remove last year. And I think a lot of it comes from stress. I'm not good at managing stress. And I definitely get scared that that's going to drive people away when I'm in relationships, just how, like, heavy sometimes I can be. You wrote in your glamour essay, which I loved, your writing's beautiful, whatever format you put it in, which is nice to know. But you wrote that you had an ex and he would, like, kind of try to help your anxiety,

and then he would get frustrated when he couldn't fix it, and then he would leave you and all these things. And obviously sounds super toxic. We don't like him. No. But I relate to this feeling of people with my anxiety trying to fix me. And it's because they love me so much, they get frustrated when they can't help in any way. Yeah.

My boyfriend now is very different from anybody I've ever loved. He's just very patient and kind and supportive. I'll wake up in the middle of the night. His first instinct is just to, like, hold me. And sometimes I even look at him and I'm just like, why are you with me? I'm a mess. I'm an absolute disaster. But he's just like so patient and kind and warm.

We like, he's going to be so embarrassed that I say this. But we literally fall asleep holding hands together. Even if he's asleep and I get in bed, he'll just like move his hand so that I can hold it. Do you find physical touch to be like grounding? Is that something that comforts you when you feel anxious? 100%. If somebody's listening, they're like, my friend or partner gets anxious, is there anything somebody's ever done for you that you've been like, yes, that was it. They nailed it. That actually did help in the moment. So many things, to be honest. I've had people take off my socks and shoes and tell me to walk in grass. I've had people put ice in my hands. You're touching the ice, so you're not thinking about all the million things that are in your brain. Yeah, or maybe it's prep for labor. It's like it's really painful and hard so you can handle other painful. I don't know. I've never had baby.

For me, it's like a hug. I'm really simple. And sometimes people that I love will hug me and I'll just like instantly want to cry. There are some people that I just associate with safety that like when I see them and they hug me, I'm like, oh no. Oh no, I have my makeup on. Not today. I love that feeling though. That feeling of this person is like a safe haven.

For me, there's nothing that replaces that. 100%. I couldn't agree more. Can you take me back to one of your more famous panic attacks when you had it on stage at the board music awards? Yeah. You were performing your hit song issues. I watched it. I could not tell.

Okay. Thank God. At all. Yeah, yeah. So I'd love to hear about it from your perspective. I had just signed with Republic and I had written issues in a writing camp. What's a writing camp? It's like when maybe an artist.

is doing an album, they will get, like, their favorite writers and producers together, and they'll be, like, 15 of us. And we'll all be in different rooms, writing songs at the same time. And they'll do that for a week, two weeks, and then they've got sort of base

of what the album is going to be like. You know, they'll pick three, four favorite songs and then be like, cool, now let's build from there, essentially. I had written that song in a camp about a guy that I was with at the time. It was actually the day that Sari had gone number one on Billboard. And same old love had gone number one for the producer that I was with.

So we were both, like, celebrating at the same time. I should have been celebrating, but my ex was not so proud of me. And I spent most of that day crying. And so I wrote issues and wrote issues from a very personal place. And Charlie Walk, who was at Rueck? Republic at the time had heard it and was like, you're an artist. I was like, get the fuck out out of my face. He's like, no, really, you're an artist. Like, I'm going to prove to you that you're an artist. And he had like brought me to like the Carol King musical and he's like, look, this could be

you and really tried to coax me. And I was like, you know what? Put it out. What's the harm? Like, maybe six people will hear it. And then it just was sort of everywhere. And I think that was probably the most overwhelming part because I just wasn't prepared for it. I just wasn't ready for it at all. And so he called me one day and was like, you're going to perform on the Billboard Awards. And I was like, can I think about it? And he was like, no. And so I was like, oh my gosh. Like, never performed like anywhere in my life. Like, this is so scary. Wait, that was one of your first performances ever? Yeah, my first real live, live performance was the Olympics with Kygo in 2016, which was so terrifying.

It's so crazy Yeah Oh my God I really When I say I'm all or nothing I really am all or nothing Okay Cool casual

Super casual Yeah When I was on the stage It was just like an influx of feelings and Celine Dion was there And I was just like Can you see the people

In the audience when you're on stage Like can you make out like Oh there's Celine Dion You can make out the first You know two three rows Which is where they put the most famous people Right Yeah

So, yeah, I just remember being absolutely terrified. And then I remember just thinking to myself, like, get through the song. Just get through the song, get through the song. And then once I finished the song, then it was just like, my legs were shaking. I couldn't breathe. I remember turning to my pianist and being like, like, help me. She was like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do.

I just couldn't breathe. My whole body was shaking. And I remember my manager, Becca, like, coming to grab me and just me convulsing down the hallway because I just was like, I just couldn't breathe. I think it just was just really overwhelming for me, honestly. Did that impact your ability to get back on stage? Like, I was agoraphobic for a while and a lot of people have agoraphobia. It's because they have one panic attack out of the house and then they're like, oh, I'm afraid of having another panic attack. So yeah, I think it still stops me from performing. It's been a long time since I've performed.

I just recently went out with Nile and sang with him at the forum. And that was the first time in a really long time that I'd been on stage. How was it? Scary. I remember being very scared. I think at one point I even put my hand on my chest or on my stomach just to try and calm myself down. Because my throat gets really dry and my whole body starts to shake and my throat is like dry and I'm like, oh my God, I can't sing. and I just have to like breathe my way through.

I have to like talk to myself while I'm singing. What do you say? Honestly, the simplest things. I'm just like breathe. It's okay. Like you're not going to die. I think it's okay. And like it helps being on stage with someone that I know and love deeply.

And so I can look at him and be like, oh, it's like this is my friend. And I have to pretend like we're in rehearsal still. I have to pretend like I'm still in rehearsal and this isn't the one. You know, I think I put. a lot of pressure on. Like, it has to be perfect. Yeah. And like, if I fuck up, then they're all going to see me fuck up. So I have to just, like, pretend like, I'm still in rehearsal and, like, not put so much emphasis on it. Performing is still pretty scary for me. How do you view being an artist and singing versus being a songwriter in terms of your future goals? I love both.

I mean, songwriting will always be my first love. And writing for other people is something that I just love and I know. I love the sort of puzzle aspect. of writing music, writing songs. We've just, like, created something out of absolutely nothing. Like, the universe was like, here you go today. And we have this beautiful song that we get to listen to over and over and that people all over the world get to listen to over and over. And it becomes, like, you know, integrated in their lives, which is so fun and just so cool.

So songwriting will always be something that I love and I enjoy. But I also really like being able to sing my own songs and write. whatever the fuck I want, what I want to write for myself isn't necessarily what someone else wants for them. I get to do that for myself, which is really fun. And I have a lot of beautiful fans, like truly the most beautiful fans in the world that have been patiently waiting for me to put out music. I'm excited to be able to give that to them. You also just released a song recently with Marin Morris called Cut, which I've been listening to on repeat. I love it so much. Thank you so much. And it's sort of about the difference between our public self, whether it's public to our friends and our family or public in this more fame type way and our private selves, who we feel like we are in the inside.

Yeah. What do you feel like that difference is for you? To be honest, I don't think I'm that different. I don't think I'm really one of those people that creates like a persona. I'm an anxious, depressed mess. Like, there's no hiding that. Like, I can't even fake being a normal. normal human being if I tried. Like, I'm not good at hiding. I'm just like not a good liar. I don't

think I'm that different. And to be honest, I think that's why my fans have stuck with me for so long is because it's not an act. It's just, I just am who I am. If you like me amazing, if you don't, like, that sucks. But it is what it is, you know. It's so interesting, too, because I vacillate on the idea of my anxiety is my superpower. Sometimes, like, that's giving too much energy or importance to it and like I am my superpower. I don't need this thing. If I got rid of my anxiety, I would still be fully super powerful or whatever. But also my anxiety has led to a lot of really incredible things in my life. And I'm curious how you view your anxiety and your depression in the light of these brilliant songs you've written about it. I've definitely cultivated a

really unique community because of it for sure. I've always liked to think that vulnerability is more of my superpower. I'm not afraid to talk about anything when I write songs. I would say I'm different in the sense that like personally I'm not, I'm not like a confrontational person. Like I said, like I'm just not good at talking about my feelings. It takes a lot for me to talk about my feelings, especially if I have a problem with somebody. It takes me a while to figure it out how to articulate it. But I could write it in a song and then, you know, I could just be like, here. Maybe you should just like listen to this and let me know your thoughts. More vulnerability is my superpower because I've been able to talk about a lot of things in my songs,

whether that's my breakups or my family life or how I feel internally. I like to think I'm like relatively self-aware. Because of that, I've really been able to cultivate a really beautiful fan base and cultivate really lovely people in my life because of it. Have you had any aha moments you say you're really self-aware that you've peased, puzzle pieces together and been like, oh, that's an unlock. That's why I have this anxiety. That's why I have this depression. Totally. Yeah. When I was a kid, my sister was like the singer of the family. I wasn't allowed to be the singer in the family. I was always like the piano player or the

songwriter. For a really long time, I had convinced myself that I wasn't allowed to be a singer in the family. It took like a really long time for me to break that, I think. We would watch like American Idol when I was a kid and my mom would watch the show. And this is a woman that cannot sing to save her life. But she would watch the show and be like, she's pitchy. She's pitchy. And so that I would go on stage and like, oh my God, I'm pitchy. And it would just like scare the hell out of me. And so there, they were just like so many things that I had to work through little things like that from my childhood. Do you feel confident in your voice now? Do I?

I don't know. I don't think so. It's just while you have such a unique, beautiful voice, like it has this like really different quality. I don't know what, again, no music knowledge, but it has this like different quality than any other voice that I've heard. I don't really think of myself as like a singer. I think of myself as someone that has like a nice tone.

I can emote what emotion I want to convey via song. But I don't think of myself. as like a singer. Yeah. I think of myself as someone that can like sing enough to be able to vocalize my feelings. Yeah, well, you're wrong.

That makes sense. You're a really good singer. I don't know how to. I strongly disagree. Well, that's very nice. Are there any concrete tools that have really helped with your anxiety

or depression over the years? Let's start with, is there anything that you do in the moment? I wake up feeling anxious today. What do you do to feel better? Usually, if I wake up feeling, anxious, I will go sit in the sun

and I will take some deep breaths. And I will put on like a 60s playlist or something. Music that makes me happy. So there's like a Spotify playlist that has like, you know, Doris Day and Louis Armstrong and that kind of music,

Friensinatra, and I'll just put that on and listen to that. If I'm really anxious, on the verge of a panic attack anxious, I'll take a bath or take a shower. I really like the distraction of water, the feeling of water. It's a sound and it's a feeling. So there's multiple ways to distract yourself in water.

That one's a big one for me. It gets to a point where like if I'm not around water, I like kind of panic because I'm like, I need it. Those ones have helped me a lot. I'll go take a walk. Honestly, breathing. Breathing really helps me because I'll just get in my head so much. I'll have like shortness of breath and I need to just like remind myself to breathe. Yeah.

So breathing, sitting in the sun, water. I'm basically a plant. We're not that different from plants. You've also mentioned depression a few times. I don't know. Have you had like bouts where you felt depressed for a long period of time? Is it something that kind of comes in and out? How does that show up in your life?

Kind of both. Comes in waves. And some days I'll just be like super sad and I'll have no idea why. I mean, I'm sure I will have an idea why. if I really sit there and think about it long enough. I'll be like, oh, yeah, it's because of this and that and this and then. But it'll get really bad. Sometimes to the point where I just, like, I don't leave my bed for, like, two days.

Because I just, like, don't want to see anyone. I don't want to do anything. I don't want to be touched. I don't want to be around anybody. It's really hard. It's really hard to, like, pull yourself out of it. I was going to ask what helps when you're like that. How do you pull yourself out of it?

You know, what helps me is a really good, long cry. I love a cry. Love to cry. More water. How will you elicit a really good cry? Will you sit and think about sad things? We listen to sad music. When you watch a sad movie? No, I'll just think about everything that's in my brain. That's sad enough. I'll just cry. And then I feel better. Actually, one time I had a really, really bad, the full mental breakdown on tour. I think I was in Wisconsin. of all places, and we had been on tour for a while, and I was just really tired, and my tour manager was gone that week, and my manager was gone that week, and those are, like, my people

on the road, and so when they were gone, I was like, well, I feel really alone. Like, I don't have anyone to, like, walk with or talk to or, like, hold hands with, you know, and I remember looking at my guitarist at the time, and I was just like, I think I feel really lonely today. I remember he was, like, doing something on his computer, and he looked at me and goes, oh, And I remember, like, laying on the floor in our little room that we were in. And I remember just, like, putting my jacket over my head. And I just started crying. And then I just didn't stop crying for, like, I want to say, like, maybe six hours.

I couldn't stop cry. I locked myself in a bathroom. I missed my meet and greet. I was supposed to do a meet and greet with, like, 60 people. I just couldn't stop crying. I was just, like, I don't want to, I just, like, can't go out there. I can't, I can't be touched. I can't do this.

And, like, that's a big deal for me because I really, I really don't care when someone wants to hug me. Like, I really don't. And so, like, for me to, like, just not want to be around anybody. And just, I was just, I want to go home. I'm tired. I don't want to be here. And they had to have someone come and, like, unlock the door. And I remember my basest picked me up and put me in a really cold shower just to calm me down.

My keyboardist Camila, she, like, was holding me in the shower. I don't know what's wrong. I just was so sad. So, so fucking sad. And I sort of, like, came to, like, six hours later. And I remember coming out of the bathroom and just, like, looking around at everybody and being, like, what time is it? They're like, well, it's 7.30, like, shows at 8. And I remember just, like, looking around at everyone and just being like, all right, well, I'm going to get ready.

We went out and we did the show, and I immediately ran to the bus after, just cried for another, like, two, three hours. And then we ended up the next day, my tour manager flew out because he had heard about it. And he and I went for, like, a super long hike in Colorado and ended up at Red Rocks. And we were, like, staring at the stage in Red Rocks where I could just cry and hike and hike and cry.

And then I felt a lot better. That day was sort of necessary for me. to pick myself back up. I really need to just, like, have a day. Because I think for me, especially on tour, I take things on when people tell me a lot of the things that they're going through in their lives. I don't know where to put it,

so I just kind of hold it. And then when you have all these people telling you these really beautiful but, like, really vulnerable things every single night, you almost feel like you're, like, packing it on like a truck and like sort of taking it with you but then that truck is like attached to your waist and you're just like pulling it with you everywhere you go. I don't write on the road and when I write songs like I have a place to put things. If I'm going through something I'm like great I can put it

here and it can live here and then I can just let it go. But when you're on tour you don't really have anywhere to put it so then it's just sort of always with you. And if I don't have a way to write songs then I have to like expel it somehow and I think it was just a buildup of a few months of tour that needed to just come out of my body. I want to dive into some of your routines really quickly. Your morning routine, your evening routine. Do you have a morning routine? I do have a morning routine. Is it consistent? I don't know. Okay. I work out Monday, Wednesday, Friday in the mornings. What type of workout? I've had the same trainer since I was 21 years old and I'm going to be 31 in November. So he's known me for a very long time. It depends. I took a long break post heart stuff. Right now,

I'm just in the position of just, like, moving my body. Like, I just want to move my body and I want to feel strong. It's not a sprint for me at this point. I just want to move and feel healthy. It's, like, a little bit of cardio, a little bit of strength training. I'm not like a hot yoga girl. I actually can't fucking stand anything that makes me really sweaty. If I want to go slow that day, he's really gentle with me.

If I want to go fast that day, he's like, cool, we'll pick it up. So do you roll out of bad and go straight to workout? Yeah. Okay. Tuesdays I have therapy in the mornings because it's really important to me. Have you had the same therapist for 10 years too? No, I've had the same therapist though for about four years now. So, and she's wonderful.

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If you were to say in a nutshell what you've gotten out of therapy, like why she's wonderful, why it's great, what would you say? I like sometimes go through bouts of not going to therapy because I already know it's this and it's that and it's this. And then I'll go to therapy and she's like, yeah, but have you even thought about this? You know, like have you even thought that maybe you're not thinking about the fact that it's this? And I'm like, damn. You're so right. It's nice to have the perspective and it's nice to talk to someone that's just like not bias, you know, know, because I can sometimes form biased opinions about even myself.

She's really good at just being like, I mean, it could be that, but maybe it's this. I'm like, oh, yeah, you're so right. Or if I'm like, hey, like, I feel really lonely, you know, she's like, oh, well, you know, you just started French class, you know, you like, maybe you should ask them to hang out with you. And I'm like, oh, yeah, duh. They're cool. I don't know, little simple things. I love that.

Okay, so we have therapy one day a week. We have working out. What do we do after that? Do you meditate? Do you go sit in the sun? Do you eat anything? Usually after that I will have breakfast. Breakfast is always different. I just found out recently that I'm pre-diabetic.

I'm trying to eat much healthier so that I don't become diabetic. How did you find that out? I was having some sort of like dizzy spells, feeling really tired, really lethargic. I thought it was all like sort of linked to my heart stuff. And I had my blood taken. And it was all in my blood. panel. And what was the heart stuff just to clarify? Because you said like all the stress caused the stuff, but you had an actual heart. I had something called PVC's. I just basically

had like an arrhythmia in my heart. It started at the end of 2021. I was like going through a really bad breakup at the time. And I think I was just so overwhelmed by the fact that it was like ending and just everything that was going on that my heart just went bye bye. I had PVC's in the pattern of Bidemone. So for every heartbeat, I had an extra heartbeat. Can you feel that? Yeah, all day, every day. And I remember going to the doctors. Because I had had palpitations before, but never this consistent and for this long of a time.

And I used to get them sometimes when I was in really stressful situations. Like if I was about to perform or something, I'd get like a skip or two. Like nothing really crazy. It was happening all day, every day. And so I went to my, you know, general doctor. and they set up the EKG and the nurse looks at me, looks at the machine, looks at me, looks at the machine. He goes, I think it's broken. I'm going to go with the doctor.

I was like, oh my God, what does that even mean? And the doctor came in, he was like, okay, don't freak out. We're going to send you to a cardiologist right away. Did a bunch of tests. They ruled out all of the arteries and cardiomyopathy and all of these things. And we got to the point where it was like, it was electrical, basically. I had something called a cardiac ablation where they go through your groin into your artery, into your heart, and they find where the arrhythmia is in your heart, basically, and they, like, cauterize it to, like, shock it back into rhythm.

Yeah, it was pretty intense. I woke up in a lot of pain because I was, like, bleeding more than I should have been, and it just ended up having to stay overnight and whatever. It was just, like, it was a lot. long, it was a long day, long couple days. Did it change how you approached your health? It honestly caused so much health anxiety, I have to say, because then any time I started to feel something wrong in my body, I was like, oh my gosh, it's this. And then almost a year to the day, my godbladder like decided it didn't like me anymore. So then I had even more health anxiety. I was like, oh my gosh, like anything. Like, I'm tired. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm tired. Like, why am I tired and still have

health anxiety. So that's something, yeah, that I'm actively working through. So then you found out your pre-diabetic. Yeah. You're doing kind of a healthier breakfast. So I've been eating much healthier. I've like cut out processed sugar, processed food. Do you feel different? Because that can help with anxiety as well. Yeah. It's new. I started like two and a half weeks ago. So I do feel a difference in my energy, which is nice. It's protein first, carb, second, sugars last. And by sugars, I mean, you know, like strawberries, blueberries, that kind of stuff. So I'll have breakfast first, and then I'll go to my session or I'll have a meeting of some kind, either in person or on the phone. I'll pack food with me. So I'll have food. I'll, like, bring, like, a salad or something like that, you know, with me.

So I have something to eat because if I don't eat, then I get really tired and, like, really dizzy and I, like, can't focus. And then I'll come home, and then I'll have dinner. And then I'll take a really long bath. And then I go to sleep and I either watch Sex and the City or I watch Frazier and I go to bed. And I wake up and I do it all over again. Do you have any other wellnessy tools that you're putting into the morning routine, into the evening routine or into any other parts of your day, like meditating or breathwork in a more regular cadence? Sometimes I'll come home and I will just sit in the sun. I think sitting in the sun makes me more aware of the way I'm breathing.

So I think they go hand in hand with me. I really only do that when I such a feel really anxious. And then I'm like, okay, I'm going to go sit down or I'll, like, lay on the floor. And I'll put my hand on my chest and one hand on my stomach and I'll just breathe. I think the wellness really comes from therapy and from working out and from really trying to eat better, trying to fix myself internally as much as I can. I love that. What about to wind down after a show?

Is there anything that you do to actually make sure you get a good night's sleep after you've been amped up on stage? No, but I also haven't toured in like five years. Okay, so we'll see. We'll see. I was definitely not the same person that I was then. So it'd be like the healthy version tour. I think if I did tour, I mean, I would do it so differently. I would love to tour.

I would love to be able to perform like some of these new songs that we're about to put out. But I just wouldn't do it as long as I've done it. I would split it up way more. And a lot of my bandmates now, they have families. I'm more aware of that now. I would just do it in a way that mentally suited me better. If somebody out there is listening and they're struggling with anxiety, can you just share one message with them? I think, like, the biggest thing is you're more powerful than your anxiety.

It's something that I know doesn't feel controllable, but it is controllable. And it's controllable in the way that you need to find a way that works for you. If you're going through something right now, the best thing that you could ever do, yourself is talk about it. I think a lot of anxiety comes from holding a lot of things in because we're afraid we're going to burden people with our feelings or our problems. And so we just don't talk about it. And then it manifests itself into things that physically start to make you sick. And so I think if you have somebody around you that will sit there and listen to you, speak and whether you want to have advice or you want them to just listen that's something you need

to have a conversation with them about but the best thing that you can do is just get it out of your body i hope that you have somebody that you can talk to and if you don't i recommend finding something that works for you giving yourself a hug breathing putting your feet in grass jumping in a pool it's you know just anything that makes you feel something thank you Do you want to take a moment and just shout out any projects that you're working on or anything you want to draw attention to? I actually just started a subscription-based platform called Notebook. It's basically like a bunch of social media platforms in one. And I created it because I don't love the internet.

The internet scares me. And I think like post-COVID, people have gotten more angry. and more mean on the internet, where people just feel like it's okay to just say anything. They want at any given time with no regard for how anybody feels. I'm a very sensitive person, and I'm a very weak person, and I think sometimes people can sniff out weak people. I really want to stop you.

I just don't think you're weak. I think there's such a difference between being sensitive and being weak, and I think you have so much strength, and what I love about you is that your strength manifests in these ways that we're... not told our typical strength manifestation societally. And so I just like, I'm sorry, I can't sit here and hear you say that you're weak. I'm weak in the sense that if somebody's saying go fuck yourself or go kill yourself on the internet, it's going to affect me.

Yeah. Like, that's what I mean by weak. And so I created this platform so that I could have a place where it's my fans. And we get to have a place that eliminates all of that, all the scary comments. There was literally one today that said, like, if a song that I worked on didn't go number one, they were going to kill themselves in front of me. I get stuff like that all the time on the Internet. That's not good for my mental health. That's not good for anybody's mental health.

I started this platform to be able to have a community. That's my community that I love and be able to share pictures and songs with them maybe that I don't want to share with anybody else. You know, songs about my ex-relationships that I love. love, but maybe don't want to live on all over the internet for people to judge. You know, like, I wanted to just be something that my fans can have. And now we have other artists joining because they want to be able to have a platform that's just for their fans as well. We just had Sasha Sloan come on and we're talking to some other artists. And it's beautiful and it's also kind of sad to know that, like, we need a community like this for people to feel safe. Yeah. So I'm,

I'm really grateful that I've gotten to make this platform with some friends of mine. Thank you. Everybody go check that out. That's notebook. Yeah. And thank you so much for this conversation, for your honesty, for your vulnerability, and for your music. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

This was really cool. That is all for this episode of the Liz Moody podcast. If you are new to the podcast, welcome. I am so glad that you're here. Make sure that you are following the podcast on whatever platform that you like to listen on. I know that 50% of you listening to this episode, do not follow the podcast. What is up with that? You're making your life harder by not following.

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I have also tried pretty much every anxiety trick in the book. And in the episode, I share the ones that have actually made a real difference in my life. I will link it for you in the show notes so you can listen to it next. Oh, just one more thing. It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.