#936 Abubakar Nur Khalil On Bringing Bitcoin Development To Africa
00:00 What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Abu Bakr Nour Khalil is the CEO and CTO at Recursive Capital. In this conversation, we talk about Recursive, we talk about Bitcoin development, we talk about the adoption of Bitcoin in African nations, and we talk about funding all sorts of different infrastructure to help get Bitcoin in the hands of people who need it most globally. I also talked to Abu Bakr about sitting on the board of the Bitcoin Trust alongside Jack Dorsey and others. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope that you enjoy it as well.
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03:10 your deposit with our exclusive podcast promo code POMP100. Go check them out at BetOnline.ag. All right, let's get in this episode. I hope you guys enjoyed this one. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy,
03:37 but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. All right, here we go. We've got Abu Bakr, who is the CEO of Recursive Capital and also sits on the board of the Bitcoin Trust. I'm super excited about this. Hello, sir. How are you? Hi, guys. I'm doing great. Amazing. I'm so excited to talk to you.
04:02 I feel like you have a unique insight into a place in the world of various countries across Africa that are at the forefront of Bitcoin adoption. not only from what we're actually seeing in terms of where it's being used and adopted, but also the importance of Bitcoin, right? Here in the United States, there's a lot of people who are like, oh, yeah, Bitcoin's cool. It's one of a lot of different, you know, investment assets that I have. And maybe it's going to go up in price. Maybe it won't. But there's a lot of folks, my understanding across Africa, who this is a lifeline. This is, you know, incredibly important. And so maybe let's just start with like, when you think about kind of all of the work you've done, all of the data and information that you've gathered over the last few years like what is
04:47 the importance of bitcoin to various african nations that's that's definitely a great one so historically going back to you know the early days of when bitcoin came into the continent a lot of it was speculation as you would expect a lot of people got into bitcoin hard thinking you know there'll be millionaires overnight that resulted in a lot of scams coming into the continent which was really bad for the pr of bitcoin overall but then over the years what started seeing especially with regards to younger generations is they're not noticing that bitcoin is more than just this speculative asset or like this number go of technology and there's the there's there's a lot more to it specifically from the angle of a superior monetary network
05:26 and one of the major things or major benefits that they do see really early on is first of all near the integration of the lightning network which is you know through bit now for example is a lot of people are starting to see that you can actually use bitcoin on a day-to-day both in terms of remittance as well as local commerce which is unheard of in terms of using local currencies number one day just these currencies having a lot of inflation they see these currencies even in terms of intra-country trade a lot of that isn't already done so so smoothly so to speak well bitcoin it allows you to have access to an open monetary network that That is global instant cheap.
06:03 So it's one of those things where over the years, I've seen a lot more people move out of the speculative bubble and into actual use cases like, you know, remittance, like I said, commerce, and then leveraging this technology to actually send money cheaply. And the thing is, not only is it banking the unbanked, but also providing a viable alternative to those that are apparently banked. Because again, the problem with even those that are banked is
06:27 they're getting underbanked, so to speak, which is having all these unreliable bank services at their disposal as opposed to being able to access Bitcoin, which is a superior system, so to speak. So really, those are the trends that we're seeing and will likely continue to increase as more wallets start to introduce the Lightning Network, for example. So these are kind of the trends that we're seeing and at least the good use cases that are being used, which is, thank God, outside of speculation. Yeah, it's fascinating to kind of think about many of these countries, right?
06:56 in, I think it was 2016 or so, I think I went to Nigeria. And one of the things that just blew me away was the internet penetration and the mobile phone penetration. Everyone had a phone and they were all in some form or fashion connected to the internet. And I probably was in kind of the computer village area and Legos. So, you know, definitely maybe like a little bit of an outlier from just the the local economy but when i think about that experience you have to get the internet penetration you have to get the mobile phone penetration in order for bitcoin adoption to actually be present and to have that solution available and so talk to me about kind of your understanding of where are we like is it pretty much the default now that most young uh people
07:41 are aware of the internet use the internet have mobile devices uh you know do they have internet access in their home like where are we in some of these countries yeah so it varies because africa is quite a huge continent and specifically with regards to infrastructure both energy wise and in terms of internet infrastructure it really varies a lot so you're going to see a lot more of the so to speak developed energy infrastructure around the north north parts of africa and some parts of the south like south africa for example and western africa you know with ghana having 24 hours electricity and then with niger not not so much really when it comes to energy and then with internet penetration really is, it's more, it's less fragmented than the energy distribution
08:21 across the continent, which is good for adoption specifically, like you mentioned. And one of the things we're seeing specifically with regards to the demographics using Bitcoin is not only are we seeing younger people, also seeing older generations who are, you know, mom and pop stores actually getting access to Bitcoin, because now with Bitnode, for example, one of the use cases we're seeing grow is actually having these shop owners allow individuals to pay them in Bitcoin using BitNob. So they act as sort of this merchant system where people can actually interact directly with Bitcoin. And we're going to be seeing a lot more adoption with regards to using POS systems over the lightning network. Now, specifically with regards to smartphone
08:58 penetration, like you're talking about, it's really, really high. And again, pairing that with the youthful population, all that we're seeing is a lot more young people being actively available online, which is great for using something like Bitcoin, which is digital and you know a digital native so the thing the thing i was specifically seeing with regards to you know adoption when it comes to pairing you know the penetration rate as well as mobile phone adoption is we have to start thinking more in terms of trying to get more decentralized internet infrastructure here or at least some sort of resilient internet infrastructure so specifically things like mesh networking and some other ways in order to have a less of a reliance on some of
09:38 to suspend that into the infrastructure that we have on the continent, which we'll likely see more of going down the road. Yeah, it's fascinating to kind of think about this. When you think about Bitcoin development, it's a weird thing where there's developers across the world who try to build technology for other groups. It could be in my own country. It could be some in another country.
09:59 It could be for a different language, a different religion, whatever it is. But there's a huge advantage if you're able to build technology for you, right? And build technology for your local community or the people that you grew up with, et cetera. What is the state currently of Bitcoin development in some of these countries? And then how do you think about the importance of making sure that people who not only are from African nations, but actually live in African nations are participating in the Bitcoin development process? Yeah, so that's definitely a great one. And, you know, over the years, we've seen quite a lot of progress in terms of actual development overall. so i like people to you know think of development as more of a holistic chunk in terms of bitcoin
10:39 so when we say development we're not specifically only narrowing it down to developers per se we're also looking at individuals that are contributing overall to the ecosystem so we're talking about language translation for example which there are great strides being made across the continent so there are the individuals that are actively working on translating a lot of the bitcoin material into their native languages into you know um i'm hired by some of the other languages which is great because you think about it people can only benefit from bitcoin if they know about it and if everything is locked into you know english so to speak then they're locked out essentially from having this information already available to them now when it comes to developers
11:13 we're seeing a lot more people at least recognize that number one there's some sort of viable job option when it comes to actually working on bitcoin and it's not just a bunch of folks who are working pro bono you know so unfortunately obviously there are a couple of sharecoin projects that come into the continent just you know airdrop a ton of money and then bring out a lot of these developers in terms of the mindshare onto building for sharecoin projects but we're seeing a lot more individuals flock towards bitcoin as they realize a lot more of the resilience that they're looking for in terms of both freedom and an actual monetary network to use for you know global remittances on bitcoin as opposed to some of
11:46 these other teams we're seeing a lot more people build on bitcoin that's one we're seeing a lot more people get interested to actually learn about bitcoin both from a developer perspective and in terms of average individuals trying to use bitcoin another good thing that we're seeing is you know with the introduction of gala for example which i'm a part of and the good thing or the great thing with gala is already we're currently you know um having the 13 participants which will be graduating into the ecosystem to actually get bitcoin jobs so the cool thing with this project is we're allowing developers not only to learn about bitcoin but to actually practically have you know um projects that they build on bitcoin in order to build out their portfolio
12:22 and actually look at ways in which they can improve bitcoin or at least improve the usage of Bitcoin on the continent. So they're kind of localizing the context of Bitcoin developments through this program. So we're going to be seeing a lot more projects like Gala come up. We're going to see a lot more people engaging in language translation.
12:38 We're going to see a lot more wallets and services integrated in Lightning Network, especially. And a lot more people trying to look at Bitcoin as more than just a speculative asset, like I said, a true financial freedom tool. Yeah. When you think about recursive capital, which you're the CEO and I believe CTO of as well,
12:55 it is focused on doing what investing in infrastructure around bitcoin and bringing it to some of these nations yes so we're looking at it at a you know broader context like i like to say which the thing is we're trying to be active investors not just passive investors so one of the things that we're looking at doing is providing as much value into the ecosystem especially when it comes to portfolio companies are invested in or just in general so in terms of how we're trying to look at it from let's say five to ten years we're looking at actually having recursive capital not only invest in portfolio companies but actually have an arm which is recursive labs they'll be engaging in you know um sort of liquidity management liquidity provision
13:32 integration of lightning and bitcoin as well as looking at another arm which is a cursive research that'll be dealing with research and development in the continent and pumping out newsletters and research reports but specifically with regards to you know a question about us investing what we're looking at is we're looking at infrastructure as well as some of the wallets and products and services so when we say infrastructure we like to look at it as not only mining we're also talking about no software for example we're also looking at um you know products and services that allow for secondary solutions secondary solutions themselves products that are built on those secondary solutions and kind of the general infrastructure around bitcoin that enables it
14:08 to continue to be a resilient monetary network yeah it's fascinating uh to kind of think about just how much work needs to be done um what's been the response from the local tech community like in the united states uh people who are uh focused on bitcoin they're seen as a little crazy even in the tech community which likes to kind of you know hold the flag of of innovation and and progress what is it like in uh some of these areas where maybe the tech community are they're into bitcoin or are they not and like what's their response been yeah it's been it's been a bumpy ride to say the least initially when we started out you know back in 2020 which is not really that long ago but in bitcoin terms that's like a decade ago what we started seeing was a lot of people go hey
14:49 you know this bitcoin thing is a scam we're not really feeling this we might as well focus on fintech has proven out the ecosystem is there it developed and we're like you know you guys need to realize that this is the future of not only money but financial freedom and they're like yeah you know we'll see and then what started happening over the years is you know as more companies came on you know the bit knobs etc you know the um even the buy points early on a lot of people started realizing that there's more to it than just like I said speculation especially with you know using um dollar cost averaging through good not for example that opened up the gates in terms of allowing people to not only use bitcoin as a savings mechanism but to have it you know
15:28 actually growing their wealth and that was a huge sell especially for the younger guys or younger generation so we're starting to see a lot more people respect the space or at least acknowledge that it exists that's one two in terms of the investor landscape we're looking at a lot more or we're seeing a lot more investors being open to Bitcoin and actually being open to investing in companies in this space. So our conversations have become a lot more friendly when it comes to the investors and a lot more receptive, which is really great for the overall ecosystem
15:55 because it means now we have capital that will likely come in and flood the gates and actually invest in these companies to grow the ecosystem as a whole. Yeah. My last question, then my brother's got a couple of questions for you, is the Bitcoin Trust. My understanding is that about 7,000 people from around the world applied to be involved in some form or fashion.
16:14 You were selected as one of those individuals. You're on the board of the Bitcoin Trust, which is Jack Dorsey's effort. Talk to me, why were you interested in participating? And then what are you guys doing there in that body of work? Yeah, it's one of those things where, you know, it's good to be on Twitter, as I'll have to say, because initially I got the request DMed to me
16:35 by my older brother. He was like, hey, dude, why don't you try this? And I was like, yeah, you know, just this, you know, little kid of the ecosystem and just being a dev. Like, yeah, but worst case, you wouldn't get in there. I was like, yeah, fair enough. So I got in. And really the main reason why I wanted to, you know, apply or I did apply is because I see ourselves as having a lot of responsibility going forward in terms of growing the space, actively speaking. Like you mentioned, the space is really, really, what would I say, it's really in its infancy, which means there's a lot to do.
17:05 So one of the things I was thinking about, especially going through the process, which was, you know, at least initially, it took quite a while for them to get back to us. And to your point, that is, I guess, not because we know there are like 70 people who applied. So initially, after they got back, I'm like, wow, I'm still in. So after that, throughout the process, what was happening was, you know, I'm getting back in terms of providing our feedback in terms of outlining issues and ecosystem, how are you going to actually tackle these issues? because outlining issues is very, very easy. So what started happening was I started documenting really what I was going through in terms of the back and forth we were having all the way up to the interview process. So that was initially what eventually morphed
17:43 into an article that I dropped in Big Bang Magazine about growing the ecosystem in Africa. So the way I see it is in general, we're talking about growing the ecosystem really has to be multifaceted. Like I said, it has to not only be in terms of trying to get the developer efforts to a stage where there's not only competing
17:59 the global stage what is actually leading in terms of development we also have to look at things like language translation which i think is going to be increasingly important as we're looking to hit demographics that are multilingual so one of the things that we're primarily looking at on vtrust is actually trying to number one maintain a set of really rigid principles going forward and outline how we're trying to grow the ecosystem in a really clear and concise way so that we don't trip ourselves up so that we have a clear path in terms of achieving the goals that we want so we're looking at obviously being bitcoin only that's one the huge important one we're looking at ensuring that we have transparency throughout the process whilst respecting you know the privacy of some of
18:37 the board members like myself obviously we don't want individuals coming up and mugging me or some of the other board members like carla and the rest that live on the continent so these are we're really looking at ways to grow the the ecosystem and that will initially be focusing specifically on open source development and specifically on developers especially through grand style funding which is what we're primarily looking at and obviously the target demographic or the target geography initially going on is you know africa so really that's kind of the like overall gist and like a quick brief of what we're trying to do yeah it's uh it's pretty incredible i love this uh joe john what questions you guys have my question would just be on kind of the progress
19:16 that's been made in africa specifically uh like just talk me through kind of how you think about that today what i don't know if you want to give them a grade but just like generally how uh how you view the progress and like how much further there is still to go yeah it's like i said we're still at like the infant stage is really like in a global terms really it's not even at a local context so i'll still leave some some room for for leniency when it comes to the grading so i'll give it like a b plus just because you know the development has been almost exponential in terms of you know the products we're seeing but the heightened interest and as well as the conscientiousness of actual average folks using bitcoin so i think there's still a lot to be done
19:59 specifically when it comes to integrating our average fintech rails which are you know all right to actually leverage bitcoin which will make it supercharged and allow us to actually have a proper monetary network that we can then build future products and services and actually lead the continent away from some of these and some of the shackles of some of the currencies like you know the the francophone countries are going through for example so looking at it from the point of view of how do we not only help with bitcoin development in general because bitcoin development is decentralized which is really great so it means any sort of development that happens outside of the continent as well as within the continent compounds the sort of benefit that we
20:36 see globally even at the local level as well which is really good so what it means is for example if We have a strike working really hard in terms of providing lightning integration all the way outside of the shores of the continent, as well as having some of these products and services on the continent, integrating lightning. It means all the access that we have in terms of sending money abroad and at home are now supercharged and are now not only allowed to be really opening the floodgates to individuals providing serious monetary network that allows them to actually access money and send it back and forth globally cheaply, which is impossible to do with the current system, then I think we're on the good side. So it means obviously that we have to focus on trying to really increase this development in a way that obviously is conscious of the local context that we're operating in, as well as trying to make it very easy for individuals to use, because that's the number one thing that we have to consider if we're trying to onboard as many people as possible.
21:31 It's not fair enough that Bitcoin is a superior monetary network. It has to be easy to use for them. So, we're looking at ways to actually fund companies that are looking into this deeply, as well as actually trying to ensure that we're building an infrastructure that supports this development too. So, like I said, mesh networking and some of these other resilient internet infrastructure as well. Abubakar, you talked about that onboarding process. Can you talk about the education that's available to kind of get people involved and just interested in general knowing what Bitcoin is? Yeah. So, there's been great progress on that end. So initially what started happening is some of the local communities started self-organizing like a really small scale.
22:08 So a bunch of small startups here and there, and then a lot of startups meet up a bunch of them here and there. So some happening in Lagos, some happening in Kaduni where I am. And then what started happening is individuals recognizing, like I said, the benefit of Bitcoin and starting to see more than just a speculative asset. And then now starting to see it as like a proper investment mechanism, a proper monetary network by the Lightning Network, key payments, all that kind of great stuff. And really as a liberating force. So in terms of education right now, we're seeing a lot more people not only translate material, which is key and important, but there's a lot more material available really in general when it comes to Bitcoin. So both in terms of allowing people to understand how to use it correctly. So you're not address reusing, for example, allowing them to understand some of the tools and services that are available.
23:00 So let's say I would like to send, you know, my friend 2000 there, for example, and all I have is Bitcoin and all they have is a bank account. You can actually use a service called CoinProfile, which you just send Bitcoin to an address and then it does a bank transfer on your end. So the cool thing with that is obviously is not only allows you to communicate back and forth between the legacy and the future system that we're thinking about, is we're also looking at a lot more people starting to really try and leverage the existing you know um hubs for example the tech hubs which is something i'm really closely involved in doing especially in kaduna which is trying to use these existing instructors to actually propagate the bitcoin message because again it's a lot harder to start up all these ecosystems from scratch why don't we just plug into the existing tech ecosystem which is what we're trying to do so
23:48 Yeah, it's getting there. There's a lot to do. I'm really excited, as you can tell. So, yeah, we'll likely see, you know, the continent progress to an A+. When you think about what's needed, right, if you could get the word out to, you know, whether it's other folks in Africa or folks that are not in Africa, what is the two things that you would say, okay, if we can solve problem A, problem B, this would drastically increase adoption, awareness, and ultimately kind of deliver this solution to the people who need it most? I say primarily we need we need a lot more quality developers working in the space because currently at the moment you know outside of the Gallup program for example we're not seeing too many developers in the space and when I say developers I mean bitcoin only developers because currently what's happening like I told you is a lot of tech engineers that we have on the continent but the issue is they're flocking over to building on some of these other chains again as a result of some of the grant programs that those other chains have and some of the
24:48 money they're just indiscriminately throwing on the continent so I think definitely having a lot more developers work in the space is going to provide a huge net positive another thing that I think is really really important is having the capital to invest in some of these companies that are trying to solve a lot of the problems a lot of the problems obviously here locally so I think this is definitely having the developers and then as well as having some capital and if there's room for a third i say definitely education because without that again if individuals don't know about bitcoin then we're really building for no one yeah it um it feels like the developer uh specifically is a huge uh component all around the world um and then i i guess one other piece
25:31 of it is uh you mentioned um uh translation as a key piece are there other uh kind of on the ground specifics that are very obvious maybe uh to people who live in these economies but to kind of a western or more american focused audience they may not realize just like the blocking and tackling that's needed to get uh get this done and get people educated and aware yeah so like i mentioned a lot of people obviously have the privilege of being english speakers kind of overlook this this common facet of when it comes to actual education because what they see is you know i can speak english the world is english whereas that's not the case there are a of languages especially on a continent as diverse as africa a lot of these other countries are
26:13 actually even french-speaking countries and some of the other languages as well so i like to give this example really is to think of it as imagine having you know all this bitcoin information locked in hieroglyphics so this is before the time of the resistance i mean if that was the case then there wouldn't be any progress in terms of actually allowing this proliferation now we need to individuals who actually need bitcoin which is outside of more of the developed nations that you're talking about so really when it comes to language translation is this huge huge component of education again because you're you're unlocking the secrets of the universe so to speak which is allowing individuals to actually know about bitcoin then how to use it having all these
26:54 practices and and documentation about learning how to use these tools readily available to individuals so i think obviously the way forward with regards to that is funding some of these projects and individuals that are hard at work in terms of translating so you know calcassing some of the individuals around the continent doing work on that another thing obviously is reaching out to some of these tech ecosystems like i said they're already existing tech hubs who are even you know catered to non-english speaking demographics so what you'd be doing is keying into those ecosystems and saying hey you know let's partner and actually translate some of those equipment we have and they're like okay yeah let's go for it and then like that you could actually have this
27:32 this sort of grassroots movement where you're having to leverage all these existing infrastructures to provide this language translation as well. So I think really that's, that's at least one way we could go about it, especially. So yeah, it's, it's a huge part. Definitely. All right. Before we get finished here, I want to just fire off some questions and you just answer as we go. Ready? Yeah. Favorite Bitcoin memory so far?
27:57 I'd say my first pull request back in 2019. Sick. Most memorable conversation or lesson learned from Jack Dorsey? I definitely say it's one of the combos that we had early on in the process. We were talking about the general importance of Bitcoin on the continent. It was a really good combo from the perspective of how he outlines some of the things that were kind of missing in my thinking and also looking at ways in which
28:28 we could actually provide the change that we need to. So it was a really robust conversation. I definitely think that's one of the most memorable ones. Amazing. In your eyes, Bitcoin means fill in the blank. Financial freedom. I love it. Sleep schedule.
28:44 One of our sponsors is 8sleep. What's your sleep schedule? It's tough though. Let's just say I'm a night owl. Well, yeah, it depends. On weekdays, I'm a lot more sane. weekend it's just all over the place all right like four hours or like six hours like what when you say it's messed up like how bad is it let's just see someday they get two three hours oh we
29:07 got a fan listen we need you for the long haul buddy we're gonna have to get you sleeping at least six all right it's getting better all right look looking forward the milestone you're most looking forward to getting a lot more developers in the ecosystem that's for sure okay uh the first african nation to move on to the bitcoin standard is uh i'd like to nigeria but i don't think that's realistic there'll probably be some other smaller country a smaller one okay and then lastly is uh Your Twitter account is at IHate1999. What's the story with that? Yeah, so I joined Twitter back in, like, 2010 when I was about 11 years old,
29:54 so only God knows why I chose that. Oh, so you literally just, when you first signed up, that's what you chose and you just kept it? Yeah, it was too late to change over the years, so I just went, you know, might as well just keep it. What year were you born? 1999. I love that.
30:16 All right. Listen, it provides something that's memorable. No one will forget your Twitter account, right? Fair point. All right. Sounds good. Other than Twitter, where else can we send people to find out more about Recursive, about Bitcoin Trust, or about yourself?
30:33 I definitely say they should probably look at our website if it's Recursive related. So it's rcrsb.xyz. All right. Listen, buddy. I appreciate you taking the time to do this. I'm super excited. I would love to bring you back kind of over the next couple of months as things develop. I feel like various countries in Africa are at the absolute forefront of not only the need, but also of adoption.
30:58 We've seen the numbers that are self-reported, but still the numbers around Nigeria and a few other countries. And so just understanding what's happening there, I think is going to be a huge piece of folks both on the continent, but also off really seeing here is the true value of this technology and what it can do for for people. So we'll definitely have you come back and kind of keep us updated on that, along with the other work that you're doing. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me. And, you know, I just continue the work that we're doing, especially with regards to fundraising at Recursive as well, because we're actively fundraising right now. So there's a lot of combos that will be had. Hopefully, next time I come on, I have some interesting stories to share with you guys. I love it.
31:38 I think that that would be a ton of fun. So thanks so much for taking the time to join us today. Yeah, thanks for having me. All right. Talk later. Bye, guys. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify,
31:52 or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. head over to palmscryptocourse.com we've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry it's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period go to palmscryptocourse.com to learn more and i'll meet you guys for the next episode
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