200. Kim Philby: Unmasking MI6’s Greatest Traitor (Ep 5)
00:03For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series,first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books.Join the declassified club at the rest is classified.com.As the past finally caught up with MI6 officer and KGB spy Kim Filby, his best friend has been sent out to Beirut to confront him,but who will win the showdown.Well, welcome to The Rest Is Classified. I'm David McCloskey.And I'm Gordon Carrera.And we left off last time with M.I.6 officer and Kim Filby's friend, Nicholas Elliott,
00:47arriving in Beirut to confront Kim in this feels like a final bid to extract a confession from his friend about his past and about his work for Soviet intelligence.Now, Philby has been in tight spots before.He's been brought in for questioning, as we discussed in several of the episodes in the series.in London, he has dodged the law up to this point.And the question now is, will he be able to wiggle his way out of this one?We left off at the very end of the last episode with the door opening to the apartmentwhere Philby is going to meet his friend Nick Elliott.And he has these amazingly interesting kind of ominous words where Philby says,
01:37I rather thought it would be you.and we'll come back to those.But first, a word from our sponsor, HP.This episode is brought to you by HP.In intelligence, you quickly learn that you are only as strong as the network around you.It's rarely a single major event that undermines an operation.It's the gaps between systems.That's where information leaks.
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03:20So instead of hearing this lovely track, you'll hear this in seconds.Hello, intact insurance.So let's set the scene.The two men shake hands.Nicholas Elliott asks about the bandage because remember Kim's got this bandage on his head from the...You fell into a radiator.Yeah.So it's an obvious question.
03:36and they sit down.It's tea rather than booze at 4 o'clock.ominous.ominous.Peter Lund, who is the new MI6 station chief,taken over from Nicholas Elliott.Peter Lund is sitting next door with headphones on,listening to the recording.
03:52Now, they are recording everything,but they've opened the window to the apartment,which means there's going to be a lot of traffic noise,and this is going to annoy some people later,because it means that bits of the tape are going to be indistinct.But we know quite a lot of what,what was said.Was that on purpose?
04:08Good question.But we do know quite a lot of what was said, and it's interesting.We've got bits of Elliot's account.We've got the official account from notes of it,which have only recently been declassified by the British government in the lastkind of year or two, start of 2025.And we've got some of Philby's account.So this is pieced together from those different accounts.
04:28But Elliot says, I'll get right to the point.Unfortunately, it's not very pleasant.I came to tell you that your past has called up with you.Philby laughs. Have you all gone mad once again? You want to start all that after all these years. You've lost your sense of humour. You'll be a laughing stock. You can see what Philby's there doing. We've been through this before. We haven't lost anything, says Elliot. On the contrary, we found additional information about you and it puts everything in place. What information, Philby says? What is there to put in place? Elliot stands up. He paces the room, goes to the window, looks out. And without turning, he says, listen, Kim, you. You're going. You. You're going to be. He paces the room. He goes to the window, looks out. And without turning, he says, listen, Kim. Youknow I was on your side all the time from the moment there were suspicions about you,but now there is new information.They've shown it to me.And now even I am convinced, absolutely convinced, that you worked for the Soviet intelligence
05:19services.You worked for them right up until 1949.Interesting date.Very interesting date.Not chosen randomly.No.It's so interesting because we're going to get into the complexities of this conversationbecause there's so much to unpack.
05:35But this is already interesting. Why 1949?Well, that is when Philby became head of station in Washington.Exactly. And so if he worked for the Soviets until 1949 but stopped, then he wasn't spying for them when he was in Washington, which would be quite helpful because it stops the risk of the Americans coming after him and prosecuting him and wanting to get him for spilling their secrets.It also seems on the face of it totally implausible that he would have somehow stopped working for Soviet intelligence on the cusp of taking a role that would have been exceptionally valuable to them.And it's so interesting because it's Nicholas Elliott suggesting this to Philby.We know you stopped in 1949.And a lot of people will think this is one of many suspicious parts of this conversation.And there are many parts which people think are suspicious.
06:32And this is one of them because if he stopped in 49, then basically the Americans can't try and extradite him to the United States and prosecute him there.Would the Americans have tried to do that?They could have at least in theory have said, well, you know, you're not prosecuting him, but he spy while in the United States.So we want to put him on trial.So that might have made the offer that's coming of immunity more valuable if that had been the case.So already you've got this thing because Elliot's brought this up.It's almost like Elliot is suggesting, wouldn't it be useful if you said you stopped in 1949?And it's so interesting because, you know, Philby, and we said this before, haven't we, that he's the guy who doesn't crack under pressure.
07:13He kind of holds his nerve.And in his head, he must be thinking, well, what do they have?What do they have?They have something new, maybe, probably.But what is it?He'd have to think it's a defector, right?That someone came over and pointed the finger directly at him or Gabe,yet another piece of circumstantial evidence that gets them a bit closer.
07:34So Philby says, who told you this nonsense?It's totally absurd.Elliot, Kim, if you were in my place, if you knew what I knew, classic line.I believe we've heard that line from intelligence officers we've interviewed on this very show.Only you knew what I knew.And he says, I wouldn't talk to you the way you're talking to me.And how would you talk to me?And Philby says, well, I'd offer you a drink instead of this lousy tea.
07:57He's like, why are we drinking tea?And then again, Elliot, do you want me to give you my version of your work for the Russians?It's kind of curious, isn't it?And then he says, it's such a weird, Elliot line.I understand you, I've been in love with two women at the same time.It's an interesting starting point for the conversation.I mean, and I'm certain you were in the same situation in politics.You loved England and the Soviet Union at the same time.
08:24And then again, you stopped working for them in 49.He says that again, yeah.I'm absolutely certain of that, Elliot says.And he says, I can understand people who worked for the Soviet Union, say, before or during the war, when of course, you know, the Soviet Union was an ally.So he's basically saying, we can excuse it during the Second World War in the 30s because, you know, that we weren't enemies then.But by 1949, a man of your intellect and spirit had to see that all the rumors about Stalin's monstrous behavior were not rumors.They were the truth.You decided to break with the USSR.
08:56I mean, again, it's this suggestive bit of...And Philby shrugs and says,You came here to interrogate me,and I keep thinking I'm talking to a friend.And then Elliot explodes.You took me in for years.Now, there's a line around here,which Elliot recalls,
09:12but Philby never recounts when he's recalling this conversation.Perhaps it cuts a little too close to the bone,even for Philby.Because Elliot says,I once looked up to you, Kim,my God, how I despise you now.I hope you have enough decency left to understand why.It's quite interesting, is it, that Philby doesn't want to recall that line.
09:34It hurts too much?I think Philby liked his friends, even though he's betraying them, you know, in a weird way.And then I find this line interesting.Elliot, after exploding, seems to kind of come back down to Earth a bit, and he says,I'm sure we can work something out.And then he gives Kim some options.He says, well, if you reveal everything, give us every contact, every other Soviet penetration you're aware of, every piece of information report you passed.And then I can give you my word, and that of Dick White, who's the head of MI6 at this point, that you will get full immunity.
10:10You will be pardoned, but only if you tell it yourself.Yeah, that is the offer.And if you don't play ball, then your passport is gone.You're never going to come back to Britain.your children are going to have to leave their schools, they're going to be disgraced, you'll be a leper.That's the word Elliot uses.And he says to him, you've got 24 hours to decide what to do.I'm going to come back, four o'clock tomorrow.
10:35And as Philby leaves, Elliot says, I'm offering you a lifeline, Kim.And it's interesting.So, you know, that in his mind, I think Elliot thinks it's gone quite well.Because Elliot goes to Peter Lund, who's been in the kind of room.next door listening saying everything's okay. Kim's broken. And he telegrams Dick White in Londonto say he's going to break, he's going to break. But the question is, you know, does Philby come back?Yeah, I mean he's got a whole day. He could split. Yeah. But he comes back. Yeah. Next day,four o'clock, he's back. This time they have brandy. A bit more relaxed. You get some proper
11:11drink. And it's interesting because Philby starts with flattery. He says, I wouldn't have spoken toanybody else.He's kind of playing into theNick Elliott thing.And when you said you believethe evidence,that really did it for me,Philby says.
11:27And he says,I've had this particular moment in mindfor 28 years.And he talks for a couple of hours.And he's going to write a document,mix of truth and fiction.Basically, it suggestshe worked for the Soviets
11:40from 1934 until1946,he's going to say.and he basically says at that point he became disillusioned with communism and more of a believer in socialism.He says he only tipped off McLean as a friend in 51 and he's had no contact with this KGB and he's got no contact with them now.And there's a kind of two-page summary, a kind of narrow admission which he's going to sign will come back to some of the strange bits of this.But some people will think it's a pretty well-written document for someone who only had 24 hours notice.to think about what he was going to admit to or not.
12:19It's only two pages.It's only two pages, but it's a well thought out two pages, I think.And I think the problem that he's realizing, Philby, is that Elliot wants names.Elliot's going to push him for names of other traitors.And if he doesn't get those names, he's kind of saying to Philby,if we don't accept your confession is accurate and complete, then you can still be prosecuted.Because again, at this point, it's probably worth reminding listeners that through defectors, Soviet defectors, MI6 knows that there is a spy ring of at least five members, two of whom have fled to Moscow, McLean and Burgess.Philby is the third, but there's at least two more, and he probably knows who they are.
13:06Exactly.And Philby says, that's why I've got to spend time thinking about it.You know, it's all or nothing.He says, I know that.But then he says, he says something interesting, which is in the farce.He says, I'll say everything within the dictates of my conscience and without damaging anyone who matters to me.It's a strange phrase, isn't it?Because it's suggesting there's limits.
13:29It's not exactly full and complete.But Elliot still seems to believe Philby has crap.He sort of has, because this is the first time he's admitted.Being a spy.To actually working for Soviet intelligence.And I think that's what so interesting is that.that Philbydoesn't do
13:44what he's done before,which is deny everythingor say,I don't know.And I think that'sone of the interestingthings about this momentis he does crack.
13:53He does give away things.He does partially confess,which is something he later says,never confess,you know,always bluff it out.And so you do wonder,what is Philby thinking
14:04at this moment?I think it's because of Jackie.He's still torturedby these dead fox.It's the dead fox.It's the dead fox.The dead fox.The dead fox is dead father.
14:12Dead father, dead fox.I mean, I guess, apart from the fox and the father,I suppose the question is, do we think he's even thinking about taking the deal?Yeah.I mean, is he thinking maybe I could do this?It's strange because he's not bluffed, Elliot.He is giving something.He probably doesn't know how much they know.
14:35See, of course, Philby would never confess this later.But I do wonder if there's a bit of him which is thinking,maybe this isis this an option?Yeah. I mean, he's seen the, what was it, the 42 year sentence thatGeorge Blake got. Yeah. Andobviously he wants to avoid that. So this is potentially a way out.I mean, I think though, keep your life, you know, keep your family, immunity,
14:56maybe live on in Beirut. I don't know.I think what is, what's hard for me to imagine those, he's just,he's such an ideological guy.Yeah.His political ideals are, I mean, he's a,essentially a religious zealot for communism.You know, because the thing he can trade or two names.Yeah, at least.
15:16At least, at least two.Yeah.I'm skeptical that he would have ever really considered it.What it does seem like is someone who's playing for some time.Yeah.And trying to work out what his options might be.Exactly.He can't.
15:30Maybe he felt like he had to give a little bit to get this process going, to draw it out.and then he could work out, as we'll see with the Soviets,what his options might be.Yeah, I think that that is plausible, I think.I mean, Elliot that day thinks Philby's finally broken.They agreed to dinner.That seems bizarre.And at one meal, Elliot finds Philby unconscious and he's drunk a whole bottle of whiskey
15:55and he and Eleanor take him to bed.They meet again socially.They act in front of Eleanor as if nothing's happened,but she can see that they're both anxious.If they go to the urinals and Philby hands over another,the document, you know, a further kind of confession.So they're going to keep meeting.Elliot has a list of names to put to Philby.
16:17Blunt and Cairncross are on it, who are the fourth and fifth men.But there are also some others.So there's Tim Milne, who's a current MI6 officer and an old school friend of Philby.And it's interesting because Philby, when he's given names, tries to muddy the waters.He says, no, nothing, you know, don't worry about blunt.But Milne, maybe.So, you know, it's like my old school friend.Yeah, maybe he should look at him.
16:37So he's not being honest.And Milne is not working for the G.GB.Well, he is a spy, but not a Soviet one.So I think Philby, as this process goes on, realizes this is going to be hard becauseif he's going to play this game with them, he's going to have to give people up.You can't just say I was a spy and walk away.No.They're going to kind of come at him with names and he's going to have to decide what to do.
17:03But at this point, Elliot thinks that they've got him.We'll come back to this kind of slightly odd mystery.Elliot says he's leaving for a trip to Africabecause he's technically running Africa operations.Peter Lund is going to take over and finish the debrief with some more questions.Some would come from the Americans who are being informed.So back in London, the head of MI5, the guy called Roger Hollis,has written to Hoover at the FBI to say there was no evidence,
17:28but that Filby had worked for the Russians after 1946.So don't worry about your secrets.But they're saying to the Americans, you know,Philby's in poor health, he's emotionally, you know, under pressure.He shouldn't be aware that the Americans are cognizant of this confession and this processbecause that might, you know, kind of throw him over the edge or cause problemsand might prejudice this kind of process of drawing out the confession.It's very convenient stance to take, isn't it?
17:54It's a very convenient stance to say, so the Americans, like, leave it with us.Leave it with us.And in fact, if you get more involved, it'll be counterproductive for both of us.Yeah, don't come storming into Beirut and, you know, kind of try and confront him.because we're handling this, say the Brits.But feel free to send any questions.If there's anything you'd like us to ask, you know, then please do send it on.But here's the problem.
18:15Philby has decided he wants out.Now, the timeline of this is interesting because there's quite a few days of meetings.And if you read the accounts, it's unclear, including from Philby's own account and the Soviet accounts,when exactly he gives a signal to the Soviets.And I think that's interesting.because some of the accounts sayit's after the very first meetingwhich would be logical which would be logical
18:39although if on the other handyou think maybe Philby is thinking aboutit might not be after the first meetingit might be a bit longer so that's why I think thatdetail is interesting butat some point very early onPhilby goes to his balconyand he describes this actually on the tape
18:55which club members can hearwhich is Philby himself talkingabout this confrontation this experienceso do join the club at the rest ofis classified.com. If you want to hear Philby himselfdiscussing this, but he talks aboutit being immediately after thefirst meeting with Elliot.
19:11He holds a book rather than a newspaper on hisbalcony. That means it's urgent.And a few hours later,he's meeting his KGB handler andexplaining what's happening. Messages go back to Moscow.When they meet again, his KGBcontact says, I thinkyour time has come.
19:27There's room for you in Moscow.But it will take a few days to organizegetting you out. And he willsignal by walking past Philby's balcony. And if he's holding a book, it's time to go. And as he'swaiting, Lund, who's the MI6 station chief in Beirut, calls because remember Nicholas Elliott's goneto Congo. So Lund says, are you ready to talk to Philby? And Philby basically says,I need some more time. Yeah. Yeah. He's buying time at this point. There's lots of interesting mysterieshere. Because Philby hears from one of his contacts in the embassy,
20:03that Peter Lund is going skiing for four days in the mountains.Now this sounds very weird until you know, firstly,that Peter Lund is an obsessive skierwho'd actually skied for Britain in the Olympics.So there's this talk that Peter Lund's going offbecause there's been some good snow in the mountains.We'll come back to this,because it may or may not be true that Peter Lund's disappearing.
20:26But Philby supposedly is told this during this periodas he's waiting to see Lund again for the kind of.of next stage of the confession.So the crucial day is Wednesday the 23rd of January, 1963.That's right.Kim Filby and his wife, Eleanor, they're due to go around to friends from the British Embassyfor dinner.A violent storm has swept into Beirut that day.
20:51It's winter.Now, late in the afternoon, Philby takes his raincoat and tells his wife he's got a meeting.And he'd be back at 6 o'clock, time to head for the dinner party.He goes to the bar at St George's HotelHas a drink or three, uses the phoneHe calls homeHis 13-year-old son HarryWho's staying there
21:11You know, it's kind of holidaysAnswers the phoneAnd he tells Harry to tell EleanorThat he's running lateAnd he's going to meet her at the dinner partyAround 8Eleanor goes alone to the dinner partyShe apologises for her husband's lateness
21:26Promising he'd be there soonThe hours passgets to past 9.30, everyone's eating without him,gets later, no sign of Kim.What's happened to him?Eleanor, must be quite upset at this,heads home through the storm.At midnight, she calls Peter Lun.
21:46No answer from Peter Lunn.Strangely, Peter Lun has gone to the embassy already,even though it's midnight.Eleanor gets a message to Lun's wife.Eventually, Lund calls.Would you like me to come round?I'd be most grateful, she says.She's worried that Philby, who's not turned up for dinner, has been in a car accident maybe.
22:05And also, she suggests maybe he's gone from one of his lost weekends, basically a booze.You know, a boozy bender, as he sometimes did.That's a romantic way to describe having 200 drinks in two days.But Lone seems calm.The literal black hole of a weekend.But Lund seems calm.And he says, let's wait to the morning.He cables London.
22:27The sun rises over the mountain the next day.Eleanor knows he's gone. It is their wedding anniversary.I mean, unbelievable.Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Only Philby.Well, so I guess this is the big question is what happened to Philby in Beirut.Yeah. And Philby seized the signal from his KGB officer that day, although it seems like the KGBofficer may be mistakenly used a newspaper rather than a book, meaning when they meet,He doesn't realize this is it and they're going.
22:58Picked up by a car with diplomatic plates,Philby is in the back, KGB man in the front.They go to the harbour at Beirut.Car pulls up alongside a Soviet freighter.He has to walk just a few steps in the open.Steps on board, the captain looks tense,shakes hands with Philby.Philby goes to his cabin, there's cognac on the table.
23:19He's been given the identity of a Latvian sailor who was aboard the ship,but it is now getting very, very drunk, I think, in a Beirut bar.The ship leaves suddenly, and it leaves before all the cargo has been loaded on this freighter ship.It's leaving in a hurry, and the storm means it's a rough night.Now, what we know, and we only find this out much and much later, is there's a long journey.Philby eventually will arrive at Odessa, which is now Ukraine.So at first, no one has any idea what's happened to him.And it's kind of interesting because you'd think if he disappears, it would be immediately news like in Beirut.
24:00But actually, I think one of the things you realize is he's a journalist who's traveling all the time.And he has last weekends.And he has lost weekends.So I think people think, well, he's either on a bender or he's off on a story.I mean, Beirut police are kind of a bit curious about it.At one point, it seems like they wonder if Eleanor is killed him.She's trying to cover it up.There's a note about that.
24:22Lord knows she'd have motive.But then Eleanor in Beirut starts getting hand-delivered letters.One on February the 2nd, so kind of week and a half afterwards.It's from Kim, and it says, I've been called away on short notice, tell everyone that I'm on a tour of the region.And he says there's some money hidden in a Latin dictionary.P.S. Please destroy this as soon as you have found the cash.And the city is starting to come alive, I think, with rumors of where's Kim.but still no one's sure.
24:52A few weeks later someone else knocks on Eleanor's doorand hands over another letter from Kim.This one tells her to buy a plane ticket to Londonbut also more quietly to Pragueand go to an alleyway in Beirutand write in white chalkthe date and time of that flight to Pragueand then burn the letter after reading.
25:11She instead tells Nicholas Elliotwho's now come to Beirut.For Eleanor, it's weird.I mean, your husband has vanished.I don't think she knew he was a spy.I mean, she takes the kids to London that summer.And she's meeting with, like, Nicholas Elliott.She's making with head of MI6 even.
25:29And, you know, they're trying to convince her that actually, you know, he might have been a wrong end.And they're worried that she's still a bit of a loose canon and actually is still in love with him, which she is.And in September, she's going to get another letter from Kim.And this time, and we'll come back to her story, she's actually going to go and follow his route.but that's going to be way off in September.Interesting enough, Nicholas Elliott also gets a letter,hand-delivered, you know, like these ones, to Eleanor,and it's from Kim.
25:57And this is so interesting.It says,I'm more than thankful for your friendly interventions at all times.And he suggests, this is Kim to Nicholas Elliott,who's still in MI6, that we meet on neutral ground,perhaps Helsinki or Berlin, to talk.The tone of the letters, if nothing has really happened.Now, Elliot thinks this is all an attempt to kind of implicate him.
26:23And instead, of course, he goes to tell him Y-6.So he sends a message back and includes a great line,put some flowers for me on poor Volkov's grave.Volkov, of course, was the defector who Philby betrayed.Yeah, and led directly to his death.Yeah.But there's one more line in the letter that's really interesting,from Philby to Elliot.
26:45And it says, our last transactions were so strange that I cannot help thinking that perhaps you wanted me to do a fade.A fade meaning a runner.Well, and this raises an absolutely massive question, which is, did Philby really escape?Or did MI6 actually encourage him to flee?Let's take a break.And we'll come back.We'll see which one it was.Now more than ever, quality matters, but so does price.
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28:05from Ancaster to Wikwemicon.Play at olg.com.And winning could happen to you too.Winner, Gagnon.Well, welcome back.I mean, I think this is the big question, and it's still debated today, which is, was Philby allowed to run?Yeah.Was he allowed to run?
28:29Was he even encouraged to run?Or did he just escape from a kind of hapless Nicholas Elliott?I mean, there are so many interesting elements to this story.It is worth unpicking because it is one of the big ones in the Philby story.I mean, it's worth saying when they learn.in America, you can imagine, the FBI, Hoover, are furious. You know, the Brits have let them get away.Angleton at the CIA, James Jesus Angleton, his friend, is shell-shocked. The FBI had been informed of thatinitial confession and these contacts going on, but Angleton is absolutely furious. And, you know,
29:04we're going to look at the Angleton legacy in our bonus series on mole hunts and the Philby legacy.So do you sign up for the club for that, because Angleton's going to burn all the memos at this pointof his meetings with Philbybecause it's so bad.But some Americans later say,well, of course he ran.That's what we'd expect someone to do in this situation.That's what spies do when you confront them.
29:27Why didn't MI6 think that he was going to run?And the Americans seem a little bit confused about this.It's interesting as wellbecause, I mean, there are also reportsthat the Americans were spying on him in Beirut at this time.I mean, there are even reports that Philby was told by one of his Soviet handers and contacts that there was a CIA hit team in Beirut.I find that a bit implausible.Yeah.
29:55But I can believe, I mean, he was worried Philby about being followed and that there were Americans around asking questions about him.So, you know, that seems plausible.That seems plausible.Yeah.That, you know, maybe Angleton and some of his people were trying to keep tabs on Philby and work out what's he up to.is he a spy? Is he going to flee? And there are definitely reports of CIA teams coming intoBeirut after he flees looking for him. In Britain, officially, there's just despair, particularlyat MI5. But is that really the whole story? I mean, Dick White, ahead of MI6, tells Nicholas
30:31Elliot, what a shame we reopened it, just trouble, you know, which is a crazy way ofdescribing, you know, what a shame. She just kept him on at the observer. Yeah. I mean, that'sbasically what he's saying is it would have been better to not go there again with thisconfrontation. And some of his colleagues are going to think, ah, this is all part of the cunningMI6 master plan that he's actually been sent to Moscow. But of course, oh, implying thatMI6 is still running him, running him, run him into Moscow. Yeah. You know, the official story,of course, was that MI6, you know, tried to draw him in for immunity and it didn't work and it goeswrong. But there are lots of
31:12strange elements to this story.And it's worth just kind of exploring thesebriefly. I mean, peopleraise questions of why was he not underany kind of surveillance? Whydoes Elliot leave?Yeah, I do find that odd.What's this talk about Lund going skiing?
31:28Did he really go skiing? Or didn't he?Some people say he's furious.Other people say he's notas panicked as you might think when he learnsPhilby has fled. And just unpackedthe skiing pit. The idea there would bethat Lund tells people that he's going skiing to give Philby enough time to arrange the ex-fil with the Soviets.And so this all kind of feeds into this question of, did MI6 actually confront Philby with a view to basically saying to him,
32:01best thing for you to do is to just get out of here?Because of course, there is this dilemma for MI6 all along, which is one thing they don't want is a trial.They do not want this coming out publicly.Because, you know, you've had all these spy scandals already.You haven't necessarily, even with a confession, you haven't necessarily got that much evidence in court.But even if you have got a confession, do you want, do you want it coming out that this MI6 officer was a spy?I mean, do you want and do you want everyone knowing the guy the foreign secretary cleared a few years ago, oh, he really was a spy?You definitely don't want a trial.
32:38you don't want it public,but what you absolutely do want,if you're MI6,are the additional names that he knowsof other Soviet penetrations.Yeah.And it, to me,I mean, I don't know what you think,
32:50but to me,that would suggestthat they didn't want him to run.Yeah.That the ideal scenariois one where he actuallydoes cooperate,gets immunity,
33:03comes back to Britain,lives quietly,and gives themthe information that they need and want.That feels like the best case scenario.That is probably the best case scenario for them.I mean, it's interesting because some MI6 offices and also Philby himself,Philby himself wonders if he'd been allowed even encouraged to flee.
33:26I mean, so James Hannings got this very good book on Philby in Beirut, Love and Deception,and he reports that Elliot later tells someone many years later that he'd said to Philby,you've got 24 hours head start.Now, this is not the official line.And, you know, Elliot's been a bit vague on the offer of immunity.He's not actually been that clear about what it is and how good it is.So there is one possibility, which is MI6 basically want to get rid of him.And getting him to Moscow gets him away.
34:03No difficult questions about, you know, why it's taken so long to find him,who'd covered it up.I think one view, which I think is also plausible,is that the preference would be for a full confession,as you said.That would be the dream outcome,would be Philby tells everything.But if you kind of are saying to him,
34:24give us that,but if you're not going to give us that, go.I mean, it's hard to tell.And I mean, Elliot's role is very complicated.And in later years,kind of people will hint while Elliot was playing this game.He was encouraging him to go.And, of course, some people think, you know, that's quite convenient for Elliot
34:42because it almost makes him out to be quite clever.And he was actually all along he was playing a clever game.Yeah.Rather than...Rather than essentially, you got played.You got played and you lost Philby.Yeah.And you trusted Philby and he ran out on you.
34:55Yeah.So there's a bit where it's almost useful for some people, you know, and for Elliot and peopleto suggest, ah, maybe there was a kind of subtle messaging being sent.Certainly useful for MI6.Yeah.Because again, it looks like you're playing, you know, four-dimensional chess as opposed to yet another kind of ineffectual kind of ham-fisted attempt to get this confession that just totally backfires.Yeah.Do you think that it was part of the plan that he might go or that he might be encouraged to flee?
35:29What's your dick?I did on this over the years, actually.Because at first I thought, I think Elliot just got outplayed.I think he was naive.I think he was the wrong person to send as Philby's friend.He's too emotionally involved.And, you know, Philby knew him too well and was playing him.I do wonder whether the plan was a mix, whether they were kind of trying to push Philby to see what he would give up.
35:53Yeah.Will he give up names?Will he kind of own up to everything?And I think they realized pretty quickly that Philby isn't doing that and won't do that.And, you know, he's only going to give a partial confession according to his conscience.And so I do wonder at that point whether they go, maybe it's better you go.And you signal that to him subtly.You know, you go, off you go.
36:17The other angle to this, which I find quite interesting, is let's say Philby had totally cooperated.He's devastated after the death of Jackie.Yeah.And his father.And he's a different man.And he's not, the nerve that he had in past interrogations is gone.And he confesses to everything and goes back to Britain.If he ends up sitting in front of Arthur Martin at MI5 and he gives up other names.
36:50And if those names happen to be other officers of MI6, you end up with a situation in whichMI5 might ransack the service.Yeah.So if you're Nicholas Elliott.Yeah.You're thinking a narrow confession and one that we continue to control the information that comes out of that, that's good.If we don't get that, maybe you go.Yeah.
37:14Because it's going to create a massive political headache for us back in London.And it's interesting because you bring up Arthur Martin and there is another theory of why he runs, though.And let's go back to Arthur Martin, our MI5 Mole Hunter, Middle Class Mole Hunter.Throughout the series, you've tagged him as middle class consistently when introducing it.Well, it's a contrast to our upper class, Philby.There's no posh mole hunters.Well, there might be, but not him.Not him.
37:44So he'd been supposed to go to Beirut, of course, to confront Philby and use the evidence he'd built up.And he's annoyed because, of course, they sent Elliot instead.He wants Philby, you know, brought to book.He's so angry because even the tapes of their interrogation,are not good enough, because remember they left the windowdeliberately or not, which drowns out.And there's this account where Martin screws up his eyesand he pounds his knees with frustration as he listens to the tape
38:13because he can't hear it all and he says it was no contest.He says, you know, by the end of these conversations,Elliot and Philby sounded like two rather tipsy radio announcers,BBC radio announcers, no doubt.their warm classical public school accents discussing the greatest treachery of the 20th century.So Martin now comes to think about this and think, how did Philby react so coolly under pressure?How did he come up with his summary of what he was going to say so well?And crucially, this line, which we flagged earlier, Philby opens the door, Elliot standing there,
38:57And he, Philby says, I rather thought it would be you, which Martin and some others come to think is a sign that Philby knew a mole hunt had closed in on him and that Elliot had come out to interrogate him.And that at that moment when he'd been summoned by Peter Lund to a flat, that it wasn't going to be Lund, but it was going to be someone else to interrogate him.So suddenly this, for Arthur Martin and others, raises a massive question, which is just as Burgess and McLean had been tipped off, just before McLean's going to be interrogated.Maybe Philby was tipped off too.Maybe Philby was tipped off too.Did Philby know they were coming for him?Had he had time to prepare?And Martin starts to look at this and he goes, in the past, Philby would have called their bluff of interrogators.
39:52And yet Philby confesses, or at least part of.partially confesses. Why does he do that? When he doesn't, you know, he doesn't know about the new evidence.This isn't how he's acted before. This is out of character. You know, he seemed to have the answersalready for the confrontation. The papers he hands over. He's written those very well and verykind of carefully when he's only had 24 hours to think what he's going to confess. So suddenlythere is this thought. What if there is another mole who tipped off Filby? And that thoughtis going to be a small thought.Massive consequences
40:28inside British intelligence.I mean, because they will start to thinkthese mole hunters, well, who knew aboutthe plan to tip off?Philby. Very few people knew about itabout this plan. But amongst the peopleare the head and deputyhead of MI5, his own bosses.
40:50And so suddenly he's thinking,hang on a sec. Are they? Could they be traded?And this leads.Arthur Martin and another chap called Peter Wright who's going to work with him to spin out of controlinto this mole hunt and this question of who tipped off Philby because they think there was a tipoff. I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be for this confrontation. And, you know, that's anothertheme of this mole hunt series we're doing because, you know, Peter Wright, Arthur Martin are goingto kind of dig deep into this. And it's interesting, one of the interviews we've got in this
41:24series for our club members is with a very interesting person who ghost wrote Peter Wright's book,Spy Catcher, which is all about the mole hunts that come out of Philby.And the guy who ghost wrote this book is Paul Greengrass, who is best known as a verysuccessful Hollywood film director.That's right.Born Films?The Born Films, United 93 and others.But who actually was originally a journalist working with Peter Wright on this question.
41:54of the mole hunts that come out of Philby and this question of whether Philby had been tipped off in Beirut in 63.So, you know, all of that spins out of control.That's, you know, something that club members will be able to listen to.So do sign up for that.But, yeah, the impact of this is just enormous.So Philby's gone.And this information on this kind of leaks out slowly.Yeah.
42:17Yeah.Because, you know, word gets around.He's not in town.There's a brief statement from the foreign secretary that, yes, you know,Philby has gone missing. He was a mid-ranking civil servant until 1951. And since then, he's hadno access to any information. So, you know, no one still knows his work for MI6. So the secretof how serious this is is actually kept, even though he's disappeared from Beirut. There's a damageassessment done within MI6, which is, you know, at this point now he's fled, which of course
42:49has never been made public, but which I know people who know what's in it and who say,it is unbelievable the damage assessment by Philby.You can't even imagine.I mean, he was head of station in Washington.Yeah.So, yeah.What hasn't he compromised?What hasn't he compromised?
43:05So, you know, but all of this at first is contained within MI6.And it's going to have this, you know, psychological impact.I mean, Stuart Mingis, the wartime head of MI6, on whose watch Philby had recruited,you know, is haunted by this.Because at one point, his son-in-law moves in to stay with Mingis.And the thin walls reveal Mingers is suffering from nightmares.And he has a recurrent theme in these nightmares,which is that there's a Russian defector who's taken up in a helicopter
43:36over the English channel and given the choice,talk about Philby or be chucked out of the helicopter without a parachute.And they always have to chuck him out.And he wakes up screaming.That is a very specific nightmare.It's a very specific nightmare.But, you know, this is the start of Philby,haunting British intelligence, but it only comes out for the public.
43:58Kind of 1967, you get the first stories.Four years later.Four years later.That how serious this was when the Sunday Times and the observer kind of race to tell the truth,that actually Kim Filby was not a mid-ranking civil servant, but was an MI6 officerand had been, you know, head of station in Washington, shockingly, head of Soviet counterintelligenceduring the war.And so, you know, at this moment, it starts to ripple out from MI6 and into the wider popular culture.
44:32Yeah. And, you know, we've been talking, I think, a lot in the series about class and the kind of sense of class superiority and camaraderie that made it very hard for people like Nicholas Elliott to kind of see Philby for what he was.And I mean, it kind of the Philby story ripples out into this conversation that's going on in Britain at the time about class.And the establishment.And this phrase comes about, partly because of Philby, of the establishment who kind of look after themselves.Is that the upper class?And that is it's more than the upper class.It's, you know, it's the people from the right schools, people in the civil service, people at the top of their institutions.And who look after each other.
45:18and, you know, to some people in the kind of counterculture, which is challenging the establishment,Philby is almost a hero, and it's interesting.But, you know, George Blake, who's another traitor inside MI6, he doesn't cut as deep because he was not one of us.He was not one of the establishment, even though he betrays, you know, MI6.But Philby was one of us.And there's this interesting line.Blake was a foreigner because he had a kind of foreign background.But Philby, an aggressive upper class enemy was of our blood and hunted with our past.
45:48Now, the person who wrote that was John La Cary.You know, and you can see in LeCarray, you know, the influence of feeling like someone from within the walls of the establishment and in MI6 have betrayed.And LeCarray, I think, becomes obsessed with this idea of deceit and betrayal, exemplified by Philby.Yeah.Well, and Bill Hayden, who is the mall.Spoiler alert.Oops.who, maybe we'll bleep
46:19Becky can bleep that outwhoBill Hayden who's the mallin Tinker Taylor Soldier Spyis anupper class, poshpublic school boy.Hiding is anti-Americanism.
46:33Hiding is anti-Americanismand sleepingwith Smiley's wife.Yeah.I mean, it's very, it's Philby.Yeah, it is Philby.And so I think, you know, this pointwhen Philby, the Philby story
46:46starts to go public, 67, 68, is when it really starts to have an impact on popular cultureand on novels and thrillers. And that's another one of our bonus episodes, isn't it, is lookingat the impact of these mole hunts on thrillers. But yes, I mean, Philby's impact begins to beenormous from that point, in the public mind, I think, from the late 60s. But what ofPhilby himself? What lies in store for him in Moscow? Will there be a reunion with Guy Burgess?I certainly hope so.Are Kim Filby's spying day is really over?And is there an even deeper secret at the heart of the story?
47:24We'll see you next time.See you next time.Hello, Goldhanger History listeners.This is Marina Hyde and Richard Osman from The Rest is Entertainment.Hello, everybody.Every Thursday and Friday, we are reacting to the pop culture phenomenon that is the celebrity traitors.We'll be on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.And Marina and I are digging into all the castles, twists and turns,
47:50giving our expert opinion on what should happen next.Now, which historical figure do we think would be the greatest traitor?It's tempting to think of an actual traitor.Yeah.A Guy Fawkes or a Kim Filby, but then all of those are traitors who got caught.Philby had a great run, though.He did have a great run.I think he could probably see off, you know, Joanne.
48:09Yes, maybe.And probably where he ended up in Moscow is probably roughly likewhere the contestants have to spend every night as well.Yeah.So maybe there's some sort of equivalence.So if you're watching Celebrity Traders, don't forget to tune in to our reaction episodes every Thursday and Friday night at 10pm.Find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.Hold music. Not what you want to hear when a pipe dispersed in your basement is flooding.
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