The Ringer NFL Show - Coaching Carousel! Minter, McCarthy, and McDaniel Land New Gigs

Episode Date: January 27, 2026

Sheil is joined by The Ringer’s own Austin Gayle to analyze and discuss some of the biggest coaching hires this week. (00:00) Coaching carousel: Minter, McCarthy, and McDaniel(1:34) Baltimore Ravens hire head coach Jesse Minter(8:44) Pittsburgh Steelers hire head coach Mike McCarthy(16:14) Los Angeles Chargers hire offensive coordinator Mike McDaniel(20:46) Sean Payton’s fourth-and-1 call The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Host: Sheil KapadiaGuest: Austin GayleProducer: Chris SuttonVideo Editor: Stefano SanchezProduction Supervision: Conor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm your host, Shield Capadia. Today we are talking coaching carousel. Take a little break from championship weekend because we wanted to get to the Ravens hire of Jesse Minter. We wanted to get to the Steelers hire of Mike McCarthy and then a big OC hire by the Los Angeles Chargers bringing in Mike McDaniel.

So we're going to talk about all those things. And then we do get into the discourse around one of the championship games in that fourth and one decision by Sean Payton because that was such a big topic. of conversation on Monday after the games. My guest today, the ringer's Austin Gail. Let's take a break. We come back and we talk to Austin.

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or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-G-Hallp.com or visit RG-8-8-8-8-9-7-7-7. Or visit cccgaggis-ch slash chat in Connecticut. All right, we are back here on the Ringer NFL show with Austin Gale. We are talking coaching carousel.

We're going to start off, Austin, with the Ravens. May the Hire. that we haven't talked about yet, bringing in Jesse Mentor, Chargers, defensive coordinator. Give me your thoughts, your first impressions on Mentor. What do you got? I kind of want to lay out the resume first, for those who don't know about Jesse Mentor.

So he was with the Baltimore Ravens from 2017 to 2020, overlapped with Mike McDonald there. He was a defensive assistant coach. Then he went to Jim Harbaugh at Michigan, was the defense coordinator there, when a national championship in 2023. In 2023, they had the best defense in all of college football and points allowed and yards allowed per game,

goes to the Chargers, D.C. there, again, under Jim Harbaugh, and they've had a top six defense by most metrics, each of the two seasons that he's been there. So he's been a very impressive defensive play caller pretty much since he started with Michigan there a few years ago. And now what Baltimore is getting, I think, is a guy on the cutting edge of defensive scheme and play calling that you see with Mike McDonald now in Seattle going to the Super Bowl.

I think that's what the Baltimore Ravens want, right? Like letting Mike McDonald leave a few years ago, they feel like they're getting the best version of that, in Jesse Mentor, a guy that's going to come in and help them, I think, like, really take a defense that is super talented, Kyle Hamilton, all these other guys, and really elevate it and bring it to the top, six, five in the NFL.

And I think that's what they're getting right away. It's still TBD on what he's going to be everywhere else, like hiring an offensive play caller. How is he going to be as a head coach and splitting those responsibilities? That's always TBD with first year head coaches. But in terms of who they're getting as a defensive play caller and a defensive schemer, I think he's one of the top guys in the league. it's hard to look at this under any other lens,

for me at least, and be like, they are trying to find their version of Mike McDonald's. McDonald's was in the building. McDonald's left. McDonald's been awesome. McDonald's in the Super Bowl. They fired John Harbaugh, and they're like, hmm, is there another one of those out there?

Let's go try Jesse Minter, and they might have got it right. I like, this hire makes a lot of sense to me for what you laid out partially. They're familiar with him. He knows the culture. He knows the GM. He knows the owner.

He's been in the building. They know his work ethic. They know his personality. They know his collaboration with other people. So it takes out some of that uncertainty with hiring a new head coach. I like that. I like the defensive acumen. Like you said, he's pretty proven in that respect.

And the Ravens defense has been up and down. I think the other stuff I look at when I look at is a guy going to be a good head coach or not. Obviously, there's the leadership. How do they connect with players? Which is hard to predict. But it feels like he's pretty good there. And then I think the big one where if you're not an offensive head coach, and specifically with this quarterback, with this team's window, is who are you bringing to the table as an offensive coordinator?

What are your ideas? And it's very tricky here, Austin, with the Ravens, because the athletics reporting that Lamar Jackson kind of likes a Cliff Kingsbury. They're also reporting that, you know what? The Ravens had Joe Brady in as a potential head coach. And while they didn't hire him there, they were impressed. Could he be an offensive coordinator? Does Jesse Minter have someone else? So there's all these things at play.

It's not just one thing that makes up a great head coach. But I do think that's the next big domino to fall specifically when you have Lamar Jackson and you have this window, is who are you going to bring in to run the offense? I think there are good signs already with the kind of coaching talent he's going to be able to bring in. There are reports that the Atlanta Falcons offensive line coach could be joining Jesse Mentor. And I think he's done a really good job in Atlanta,

helping Bejohn have all the success that he did there. And I think the other piece of this, too, is who is making this decision for mentor, right? That's very interesting. Is it who the ownership and leadership liked in the head coaching interviews, like a Joe Brady? Is it who Lamar Jackson wants with Cliff Kingsbury? Or is it going to be someone that mentor wants to bring in, right? There's been some reporting that maybe it's Marcus Brady, one of the offensive assistant coaches with the Los Angeles Charger.

I think that's really going to dictate how we view the mentor hiring right out of the gate, right? If they bring in Brady or Kingsbury and the reporting is, is that that's who Jackson wants or that's who Bishotty wanted. Then it kind of shifts gears in terms of like, okay, Minter, control your side of the ball, control the team, set the culture. And if this offensive play caller doesn't work out, we're going to roll the dice again. I think the worst case scenario when you're hiring a, you know, I think it's been kind of made too black and white with like, are you hiring an offensive-minded coach or a defensive-minded coach? You know what the worst-case scenario is? You hire Jonathan Gannett.

And then the defense in Arizona, every year he's been there, was in the bottom three pretty much by every metric. I'm glad someone noticed, Austin, because all I see, Jonathan Gannon must have the best PR in the NFL where it's like, oh, I'm like, has no one been paying attention to that defense for three years? Thank you. It's been terrible. That kind of thought is welcome here with me, Austin. If you hire Minter and then he's the defensive mind and head coach,

and the defense sucks, that's the worst case scenario. I don't think it's if he doesn't figure out offensive play caller right away or, you know, obviously they want to maximize this window, this kind of shrinking window with Lamar Jackson as he gets older and not 29 years old. but I think the first offensive play caller hire it's going to be kind of determined by ownership or leadership, it seems. And then after that, it's are you rewling the dice? Like, Damico Ryan's, it took time.

Mike McDonald didn't hire Clint Kubiak right away, right? It was that guy they were making fun of a while. Ryan Grubb, yeah. Ryan Grubb, right? It's okay, right, if you do one or two swings of the bat, offensive play caller, if your defense is top of the line. And that's what we've immediately seen with Mike McDonald and didn't immediately see with a guy like Jonathan Gannett.

They immediately have a very high ceiling. If that defense is playing well next year and that offense can get back to it, it was just, it wasn't this year. But the year before, remember, it's the best offense in the NFL. Like, I do my rankings at the beginning of every year. And I was like, well, Ravens are they going to be one or two? There was a high expectation for that offense. And we've seen the ceiling with Lamar Jackson before.

So it is an attractive job for an offensive coordinator. And I don't want to underrate the culture aspect of this, which we never, it's hard to define. and we know that, but I was reading Jeff Rebeck, longtime Ravens Beatwriter in the Athletic Austin. And he wrote, Steve Bishotti may not have acknowledged this publicly, but the tepid support for Harbaugh from several key players in the locker room

surely factored into the longtime head coach's dismissal, which I thought was very, very interesting. So part of the reason why they bring in a new coach, and by all accounts, again, this is kind of a crapshoot. We are dealing with uncertainty when we say this guy's going to be a great head coach. But Minter has that going for him. It seemed like the players with the Chargers,

players who have played under him previously, really like him, his personality and play for him. So I think you're excited if you're a Ravens fan. You never know, but if you're going to change things up and, you know, you said, what's the best case scenario? I think this is pretty close to a best case scenario hiring Jesse Minter. And a guy who could be there for a long time,

not saying as long as John Harbaugh, but he's a guy who you could see really being there for a long time with one of the more stable organizations in the NFL. All right. Next guy, Austin. I don't know that we're going to be quite as positive about this, but maybe you'll surprise me, and I'll be wrong.

The Pittsburgh Steelers, you and I have spent about 17 hours on this podcast talking about, will the Steelers fire Mike Tomlin this year? Will he be gone? He is gone. And they hire Mike McCarthy. I'm not going to influence the voter here and say, you just tell me,

how do you think Steelers fans should feel about Mike McCarthy as their new head coach? I'm going to start with the facts. Mike McCarthy is the third oldest coach in the NFL. Wow. I have no idea. Is that true? Is that fact-checked? And Andy Reid is the oldest. John Harbaugh is the second

oldest. And then now here comes Mike McCarthy as the third. Here's the fact that might blow you as well. He's five years younger than Bill Cower. He's five years. He's five years younger than Bill Cower. Who retired as the Steelers and coach.

20 years ago. And now I feel like making this too much about age, but like it just feels very, why age I think is important with this hire specifically, it feels very opposite to the philosophy that the Steelers have approached hiring head coaches the previous three or four times if they've done it in their franchise history. Like they've always gone after the younger guy that can rebuild, reset, and like kind of own this thing moving forward. And when you look at some of the owner's comments, they made this hire 11 days after Mike Tomlin chose to step down, which it doesn't feel like was something they were kind of expecting, right? There was some other reporting that said that they were ready to go again,

at least one more year with Mike Tomlin, kind of assuming that Rogers would come back and you kind of just re-roll the dice. How are you making this higher? 11 days after it happens and not even entertaining the opportunity to take a Clint Kubiak or a Chris Shula, you know, further in the interview process, or like really kick the tires on some of these younger guys that are getting love, Sheel-Hossi and Udinsky. It just doesn't make sense for me to settle for Mike McCarthy so early,

just 11 days again after Mike Tomlin stepped down. when, yes, the owner's like, we don't want to rebuild, we want to reload, we want to win now. That's the expectation. You're bringing up Mike McCarthy's record, comparing it to John Harbaugh. Steelers fans don't want to be in the same situation they were in before, where a coach that can come in, kind of do okay and, you know, do well in the regular season, win 10 plus games in the regular season, potentially, and then, you know, Peter out on the playoffs. And it just doesn't make sense for what the franchise, I think, needs after such a long Mike Tomlin tenure. And I don't think it really makes sense for the current roster that they have.

They don't have an answer at quarterback, something that Mike McCarthy has had every year he's coached in the NFL. It really shocked me. It didn't shock me, though, when I found out he was from Pittsburgh. Yinsers are Yinsers, man. They stay with their crew. I find this to be such an uninspired hire with the caveat that will be wrong about a lot of this stuff.

But I'm with you, man. If it's like, we're, Steelers fans have been clamoring. All right, maybe the end of the, end of the Tomlin era. Let's start flesh. Fresh. Let's build this thing the right way. you just hired someone who just kind of entrenched you in mediocrity. Like I'm not saying he's a horrible coach.

He's not the worst coach. But this this keeps you stuck. This is high floor, low ceiling. I don't understand the vision. I don't understand the process. The process, you know, smells a little bit funny to me if I'm being honest. Because he worked with GM Omar Khan in New Orleans. He worked with their personnel guy, Andy Weidel, in New Orleans.

So there's obviously a connection there. You mentioned it. He's from Pittsburgh. He's got great PR. If nothing else, I will give Mike McCarthy credit. Whoever's doing his PR over the years, it is unprecedented what I see about him online. Now, I will say this, because I know some of you are yelling at me right now saying, Sheel, you must have not seen that, you know, that graphic, that Austin referenced going around comparing John Harbaugh, why does he get so much credit? And Mike McCarthy doesn't. So the pro football reference case, Austin, from Mike McCarthy is that he's won 61% of his games over. 18 years, not easy to do. 13 with the Packers, 5 with the Cowboys. And so there you go. He's won a lot of games. But did you hear what Austin said about the quarterbacks? Because that is something we cannot just sweep under the rugs. He had Aaron Rogers, Dak Prescott, and Brett Fav for 244 of 288 of the games that he coached. That's 85% of his games. He's had one of those three. quarterbacks. And you could say, all right, so we coached him up. Well, not really, because

Aaron Rogers after McCarthy won back-to-back MVP. Jack Prescott, this last year, might have been his best season in the NFL after Mike McCarthy left. And so I don't think Mike McCarthy was the one making those quarterbacks great. And when you look at his record with the other quarterbacks he worked with, it's not very impressive. And to your point, what have we been talking about with the Steelers since the end of Ben Ronsberger? They cannot find a quarterback. They don't have a path to a quarterback this year, and I think you're going to see the results here. And why did they take such a swing so quickly, Austin? That's what I don't get.

The process feels rushed. It feels kind of so narrow-minded. And like, so, again, I can't just get out of the way of like, the previous coaches that they've hired had zero head coaching experience before. Like, they brought in guys that were going to start. Exactly. They brought in guys that were going to start new, play the young man's game. And like, I feel like really grabbed control of the locker room.

They have one of the oldest defenses in the league, the highest paid defense in the league, and you're bringing him in with a quarterback problem that he's either going to solve with, like, the oldest band-hade in the league with Aaron Rogers, or you're going to, like, trust him to develop Will Howard drafted Ty Simpson or whoever? Like, it does not, it just didn't make sense to me.

It does not make sense for their timeline. It doesn't make sense given where they've been with Mike Tomlin the last 18 years. And you bring up the Harbaugh stuff and it's like, oh, he's comparable to Harbaugh. It's not what have you done. It's what have you done for me lately. And a lot of that is because the league changes.

every five years. I don't care what Mike McCarthy did 10, 15 years ago. Like, the league has changed fundamentally over the last five to 10 years. And it changes again and again every two to three years with under center stuff, running RBOs, the play action game, all these defenses now with McDonald and Minter, like running more two high shelves. The game has changed so much that where like your previous success as a head coach with MVP, Hall of Fame caliber of quarterbacks does not excite me.

I'm sorry. It's ridiculous. I think that every Steelers fan would have been a lot. more inspired, even just taking a blind shot on one of these young guys that hasn't had coach before, but does have a scheming advantage on either the offensive or defensive side of the ball. I think it's a shocking hire, a rushed higher. And if it works out, I'll be absolutely shot. What does that even look like? I can't even picture it. Honestly, but does it mean you, like the ceiling feels like you win one playoff game? Yeah. And maybe that's great.

Which was kind of the ceiling with Tomlin the last five years. Yeah. Yeah. It's, and I don't think he provide the same floor as Mike Tomlin. Maybe we're being harsh. It's honestly how I feel. It's how Austin feels. I don't feel guilty about it. I'm wrong about stuff all the time. I don't think I'm going to be wrong about this one.

This I would be so bummed if I were a Steelers fan. And we go through the entire Mike Tomlin era. He hangs it up. And we've been like to your point, we've been an organization that has only had three head coaches since 1969. That's our calling card. We're going to find the young guy outside the box that people aren't ready for yet. and we're going to identify that guy.

I wish they, even if they struck out, that would have been a good process. This is not a good process to me. All right. Let's take a break. We will get to the next guy on our list who's not a head coach, but a very interesting coordinator hire. All right. We're back on the Ringer NFL show.

The Los Angeles Chargers. So this again, not a head coach hire. We got to the two new head coaching hires, but a big time offensive coordinator hire. They hire Mike McDaniel from the Miami Dolphins. And oh, baby, it is Christmas for the hipsters, Austin. I mean, Mike McDaniel, just, it's Christmas in January, not Christmas in July. Mike McDaniel, Justin Herbert, the rest of the NFL might as well forfeit. Actually, I'm being facetious.

I do like the higher Chargers fans. Don't get mad at me. But, yes, there's a lot of buzz around this. To your point, it feels like this is universally praised that finally they get out of the Greg Roman business. They get a legit offensive coordinator there. and that this offense is going to take off. You seem at least a little bit skeptical on your previous comments.

Maybe not, or are you just a little bit nervous that everyone likes this higher? I think the only reason I'm skeptical is because everyone likes this higher, right? And I think the more interesting conversation is, like, the fact that they did hire Mike McDaniel, if this doesn't work out, it might be the one OC hire they make where if Herber is struggling, Chargers fans might be ready to say this is Herbert's fault. Right? Now, I don't think that's going to happen.

but I'm not predicting that, but like the Mike McDaniel name value, the brand value, like if things aren't panning out and Herbert is struggling in this offense, I don't know if Chargers fans are going to, I think it's more likely Chargers fans are split or even leaning toward like,

oh man, like this Herbert thing's not working out or whatever. I don't think that's necessarily going to happen. I think Herbert is one of the best quarterbacks in the league, one of the best five, six quarterbacks in the league. And with Mike McDaniel coming in, I think the run game's going to dramatically improve over what Greg Roman had. And then I think you, it's TBD, right,

what this passing game is going to look like. The most interesting part is what you said there about, we're going to see a Mike McDaniel's offense because I think you look at it and you saw in Miami to your point his biggest strength was building a scheme around his personnel and a quarterback that had limitations.

And so now for whatever you think about Justin Herbert, I do think everyone would agree that from a physical talent tools perspective, there is nothing you cannot do with Justin Herb. I should have said you can do everything. I had a double negative. I know, bad job by me, but yes, the arm, the athleticism, the smarts, the toughness,

you can build any kind of offense you want with Justin Herbert at quarterback. And I think you're right that if this doesn't work, if we're a year from now, say, because I'll tell you what, you look at Justin Herbert, and I like Justin Herbert a lot, I agree with most of what you said there. He's been in the NFL six seasons, and the Chargers have had a top 10 offense one time in six seasons. That's under four different offensive coordinators,

Shane Stuyke and Joe Lombardi, Kellynne Moore, Greg Roman. This will be his fifth offensive coordinator in seven seasons. You know, you look at someone. I don't agree when people are like, oh, you know, there's not that much different between him and Josh Allen from a tools perspective. I'm like, Josh Allen, you could put any supporting cast, any coach around him, and it has been a top five offense year and year out. So that is a big, big difference when the quarterback can just elevate all the circumstances around him.

They're going to be growing pains, right? Like, I don't think we should be grading this higher after we, week four, week six. But I think if, you know, by week 10, week 12, you're looking at this offense, it's middle of the pack. There's a lot of turnovers from Herbert and somehow they're able to run the ball really well, but the passing game hasn't clicked yet.

The pitchforks are going to be out, man. And I think every other offensive coordinator he's had before, all five, people have said, ah, get this guy out of here. It's not working. This might be the first one where they're like, wait a second. Are we going to get a better offensive play caller than Mike McDaniel to come in and fix Herbert finally? I don't know.

It's not absurd to think they could have a top five offense next year. And I don't think that's a crazy expectation. I think they almost need to have them. Like they need to have. Why not? Why can't they? And barring injuries.

Like, why can't they have? Barring injuries, if you get the tackles back, that's an elite, you know, pair of offensive tackles. You drafted a running back in the first round. If he's healthy, he's good. You have a great head coach in Jim Harbaugh. You have a great offensive mind in Mike McDaniel. And I'm with you on the wide receivers.

But it's not like, you know, those guys are probably better than what Josh. Again, I don't mean to keep bringing this with Josh Allen. but you've got to be able to compensate somewhere. If you have it all, you know, if you have a great player at every other position, then what's the point of the great quarterback? The great quarterback has to make up for some of those deficiencies on offense. So very, very interesting.

I think if you're a Chargers fan, you should be excited. I was joking at the beginning of this segment, but I would be excited if I were a Chargers fan with this hire. All right. Austin, I wanted to finish with this. A little leftover from Championship Weekend, which we talked about a little bit with Billy on the previous episode, but I know you are very attuned to the analytics,

the decision making, the game management. And I was a little bit surprised. Maybe I shouldn't have been, but the conversation that dominated everywhere content on Monday was the Broncos going for it on fourth and one in the first half with Jared Sidham, not getting it. And that has been really the focus of, hey, is this why they lost the game?

Is analytics gone too far? Did Sean Payton blow it? I know you've been thinking about this today, doing some research. I don't know what your actual take is. So where are you on kind of the discourse around that decision? I think I'm overall very frustrated with a lot of the fourth town discourse. One, and you've been on this for a while now, the only time we have it is when it doesn't work. Right?

The only time we have it is when it doesn't work. And I think the other piece of it is we evaluate the decision as the 99% reason to discuss things. whereas there is way more to going forward on fourth down than the decision to go forward on fourth down. There's also the play call and the execution of the play call. And I think, yes, when it's a 10-10 game and there's a freaking blizzard in the second half where kicking field goals is going to be very hard,

it's easy to have kind of the hindsight analysis of we should have kicked the field goal when the weather was better. We were really close. We probably make it. And guess what? It would have been a 10-10 game late. Like that's easy to say.

Why aren't we talking about fourth and one, play action pass, and there are two unblocked defenders immediately in Jared Stidham's lap. That's the problem. It's not the problem to go forward on fourth down. The problem is you ran a play that either, you know, you can't confirm this, either through bad execution or they weren't prepared for the front or whatever it was, two interior defensive linemen were left completely unblocked.

Go back and watch it. Completely unblocked on the play. To where they're in Stidham's lap, there's a receiver coming up and over the middle, and there's a receiver kind of curling up to the right that he could have hit if he wasn't immediately under pressure. That's the problem with this play. It's not the decision to go for it. I think the decision to go for it was right.

And I think if they got it, we wouldn't even talk about it. No one would even bring it up. They would say, oh, it just isn't a part of the conversation. I think it's just overall very frustrating that taking the points has become this thing that is only used as hindsight analysis when teams lose games because they made a fourth down decision where the play call or the execution of that play was ultimately kind of the reason they didn't work out. Right. Now you always have to be baking in to the decision.

like whether or not it's going to work. But like when you have like clear, clear errors on a play where you have two guys completely left unblocked, to me it's like that's the issue with this, right? Like the decision to go for it, of course is a high risk decision in the game like this. But if you finish that play and you say this play, whether it was like first in 10 or whatever,

it was never going to work, like that's where I feel like the focus should be. Totally with you. Well said, you know, I should clap a little bit. I'm shocked. I honestly thought we were past this because we've had so many, more fourth down decisions that were like, whoa, that guy's really gambling.

Fourth and one, that deep in the red zone early in the game? I mean, what coach doesn't go for that in the NFL in the year 2026? Right now, that is a go for everybody. And I love how we're acting like if they kick the field goal, then what? You would have maybe gone to overtime? Like the Patriots play the rest of the game differently. First of all, if it's a tie game, they're not. just sitting on a lead. That's one thing.

Secondly, you missed two field goals later in the game. One of them got blocked. So there's no guarantee that you make the field goal and is getting to overtime some kind of great achievement. You still have a 50% chance that you're going to lose. At that point in the game, you don't know that you're going to completely shut down the Patriots the rest of the way. I don't know what you knew about the weather at that point. Maybe you knew there was going to be some bad weather. I doubt that you knew it was going to get that bad that quickly with five minutes left. I haven't seen a game like that in a long time. If ever, I answered.

was saying it all game long. Yeah, he's like, I've never seen a game flip like this with the weather. So I am totally with you. And by the way, and then now Rabel's getting all this credit. Oh, he out maneuvered. Mike Rable went for fourth and one from the Denver eight-yard line with the game tied at seven in the fourth quarter. To your point, Austin, did that make any of the talk shows today?

Mike Rable, oh, man, I don't know what he got lucky. I don't know what he was doing there. No, because you got. You got the Drake made quarterback sneak, and you got it. So we're just going, I'm with you. And I understand you can't look at anything in a vacuum. I think maybe they should have run the ball there. But to your point, if you're going to pass the ball, it's got to look better than it did there.

But yeah, I can't believe that this is what Sean Payton's getting ripped for after this game. It's wild to me. Yeah, you're at the 14. At that point, you don't know if you're going to get to the 14 again. And it's really beneficial to score a touchdown there and go up 14-0. And so sometimes you have to make those decisions under-on- uncertainty, not knowing if they're going to work. You have to have a process.

And I know he's kind of backtracked on it. I think that's wrong. I think he made the right decision. If I'm in the building, I'm going, you made the right decision. There's other stuff we can quibble with. We lost that game because we had a backup quarterback who made a bad mistake that literally gave the Patriots the game. And then it was a blizzard in the second half.

It's tough circumstances. That's why he lost the game. You didn't lose the game because you went for it on that fourth down. So we are on the same page there. Some will disagree. Well, you know, some of you disagree. That's okay. We stick to what we're saying about Mike McCarthy

and we stick to what we're saying about Sean Payton and that decision. His name is Austin. Gail. Appreciate Austin coming on. Thanks to everybody for listening. Thank you to Christopher Sutton for producing. Stefano Sanchez on video and additional production supervision

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