The Ringer NFL Show - The Cowboys Can’t Close, the 49ers Can’t Be Stopped, and More Week 12 Reactions | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: November 25, 2019

The Cowboys continue to underperform despite having one of the best rosters in the league and it’s time for a coaching change (0:30). Then, Stock Up led by the Seahawks’ win over the Eagles, Stock Down led by the Packers’ embarrassing performance in San Francisco, a challenge flag on tripping, and tomorrow’s headlines (18:30). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the NFL show is brought to you by State Farm. When you need a game plan for protection, state farm agents are here to help. With personalized service, agents are available to talk in-person over text in the State Farm app. So go with the one with coverage and agents you can count off. Find an agent in your neighborhood today. State Farm. Talk to an agent today. To the ringer NFL show, I'm Robert Mays. I'm joined as always by Kevin Clark.

Kevin, how you doing, buddy? I have seen Jason Garrett's football team live in 2019, and I did not like him. I forgot that you were at that game. How miserable was it? Well, my scarf blew away. So did you run a car? Is that how you get back and forth to July? I do, yeah.

I was here all week, and so I had to go back. You can't really stay around Foxborough during the weekend. No hotels around there except for the one on the premises, which sells out months in advance. And so, yeah, in order to get to and from Gillette Stadium, you have to rent a car. and I decided I got out of the hotel and there's sort of an overhang and I was like, I'll just regroup during the rain once I'm out there.

And then as soon as I got outside, there was sideways rain that came right into me, which I actually preferred because I got drenched immediately upon stepping out. And then I was like, well, I can't get any more soaked. And so I just made an undignified drive while soaking wet. By the way, it takes two hours. Because I didn't have a driver's license, I couldn't run a car. So I had to find other modes of transportation. back and forth to there and it was like two degrees outside.

And I had to wait for like half an hour outside of that weird bass pro shop for an Uber to get back to Boston. It was terrible. Before the Ravens AFC championship game, I forgot to get a parking pass. And I think I paid $120 to park a mile away. It's a great move by you. That was 2012. So that was AFC championship pricing. Luckily, I parked at the stadium today.

However, once I got out of the car, what? Hold on. Once I get out of the car, my sky. Garf just blew away. That's all you guys need to know. So what was worse? Jason Garrett's football team or the weather? Well, they came, they became one and they became intertwined, right? Because when I looked at that weather, the first thing I thought about when I even looked at my hotel room this morning was, I'm not going to learn anything about either team today.

It's just going to be one of those gross games. No, it's going to be, you know, no one can get a handle on the ball. Maybe there's some fumble luck. And that actually didn't end up happening because I learned a lot about the Cowboys. I was reminded how conservative Jason Garrett can be despite the fact that his quarterback can play like a legitimate superstar this year. You cannot kick that field goal, Jason Garrett. You cannot make special teams mistakes all over the place.

I learned even despite going into this game and saying, I'm not going to learn anything. I learned that Jason Garrett and the 2019 Cowboys are not the team that they can be. And, you know, after the game, Jerry Jones kind of went off on Jason Garrett. We've actually kind of a lot of the Cowboys, right to say, and they've never seen that before. With respect to Jerry and his comments about Jason Garrett, I don't know. I mean, he kind of goes back and forth. He seems to have said some really harsh things about Jason Garrett.

And then like the next day, he always goes on the radio and says that, Jason Gareth's like the best coach in football or something. So we'll have to see how those comments age. But it was a really bad, really strange Cowboys performance for me. If you had to stack up the Cowboys roster with the other rosters in the NFL, how many rosters would you rather have than Dallas? Well, not many. I think that's a hard question.

That's a hard question to answer because we haven't seen how good this Cowboys team could be. And I think that actually, I think we have an idea in our head what this Cowboys team is supposed to look like. You know, Des Bryant said this on Twitter. Des Bryant is becoming a just indispensable fund it on social media. But he said that he said that the Cowboys had better talent and the Patriots have a better game plan and coaching staff. And I think we saw the value of that. But I don't know. I mean, it's really hard for me.

we just haven't seen the Cowboys coached by a competent coaching staff. And, you know, I've seen a lot of Cowboys writers talk about this, that Jason Garrett essentially believes in execution above all else. If the Cowboys execute, they will win, all that stuff, right? So that's why maybe good ideas or innovation or some of these things kind of take a back seat. Good ideas take a back seat. Yeah, because Jason Garrett's like, well, it doesn't matter if there's good ideas. It matters if you execute.

And I just think that's such a backwards sort of early night. 90s way to view football. And I don't know, man. I mean, anyway, the long story short is that you cannot maximize your talent if you're not giving them good ideas to work with. I like Kellyn Moore. And I think Kellyn Moore is smart. And I'll be curious to see how that goes.

At this point, this roster more or less is going to be back next year, depending on what they do with Cooper. Because there's going to be a franchise tag and a transition tag. next year because of the CBA. So they can transition one of those guys, and they can transition Cooper and bring back and franchise DAC if it comes to that. We can get to the DAC thing in the second. But for the most part, I think this offense is going to come back relatively intact next year.

And I just don't understand how you can roll with this coaching staff again. They don't really have any weaknesses. Like, you'd rather have a better tight end. That's it. Their offensive line is one of the best in the NFL. DAC has been playing in an MVP level all season. He didn't look good today, but he played in driving rainstorm

against the best defense in the league. And they have a really, really good pass catching talent. And you have the richest running back in the NFL now. Amory Cooper has been fantastic this year. Michael Gallup is a great two. Rayno Cobb has been somehow rejuvenated. This offense should be so, so good. And this team just has so many talented players on it.

They've drafted so well. over the last five years. And it just seems like such a waste to keep riding with this infrastructure year in and year out when you've seen that it doesn't work. Yep. I mean, Dak Prescott is a better quarterback than the Cowboys are a franchise right now. And I think that their talent needs to be maximized.

I mean, could you imagine, could you imagine if they had a top five coach? I mean, I think that, you know, we talked a little bit about this with the Browns and the Cowboys have, I think, more talent than the Browns. But what did I say? Where there are like 10 coaches who could win 13 games with that Browns team?

I mean, how many coaches do you think could be and make the Cowboys into a top, top shelf NFC contender? I think a lot. I think there's at least 10. Like, what if Kyle Shainahan was the coach of this Cowboys team? Yeah. What if Matt LaFleur was the coach of this Cowboys team? It just, it's bathroom.

Or like, even like Mike Zimmer, right? Yes. No matter. Because at least Mike Zimmer does something well. Yes. And it's just the frustrating part about it. I don't care about the Cowboys. But when you're watching this from afar, this is like a $5 billion franchise.

And they're just letting Jason Garrett run it. It makes no sense to me. The Jerry Jones thing is it's so interesting because he has this unflinching loyalty when it comes to certain people. And with the players that often has worked out. But there's just this insular approach to the way they do things there. And again, when you have the richest franchise in the league, in a lot of ways, the Keystone franchise in the league, it is just so maddening and so strange to watch it be run

like a mom and pop shop sometimes. All right. I have three coaches for you. Would Ron Rivera win 13 games with the Cowboys? I would take Ron Rivera over Jason Garrett any day. What about Cliff Kingsbury? That's actually a really fun one. I think I don't know the answer to that.

I think the offense would be really fun to watch though. Okay, last one. Anthony Lynn. I'm kind of back and forth on Anthony Lynn. I just wanted to throw those hype with that. I'm trying to just establish the wins above Jason Garrett here. So I'm just going to be curious to see what they do with Callen Moore, because the offense has been so good for most of this season.

I'm kind of worried that they're going to do the Jason Garrett thing with Kellogg. Yeah. Yeah. And I just don't know if that's the answer. As much as I like Kellan Moore and think he's smart, I'm not sure that's the way to go. We're going to be complaining about Kellyn Moore in 2029. That's exactly right. It is 10th season. I also, what do you think ends up happening with DAC? Do you think they've, do you think he gets franchised? Do you think we're headed that direction? So the numbers are pretty grim for the Cowboys. So if he gets tagged next year, we're looking at $33 million. After that, you're looking at over $40 million. And I think the Dak Prescott, we already know he wants to bet on himself.

I think there's a real, I think eventually he'll take a huge, huge contract once Jerry Jones realized the financial realities of it all. But I think there's some Kirk Cousins vibes a little bit, just in the sense that like, Kirk Cousins is the only person who's ever bet on himself from the quarterback market and actually played the franchise tag game effectively and got $84 million guaranteed. And this is just me from afar saying this, but when you go in and you say, I'm not taking $30 million as that Press got did according to reports. He's looking for more of 40. I think quite frankly, I know that that started out as a negotiation number. I think he's going to get 40 because if he gets tagged two times, he's already making 40 for one year. and the tag as we know is sort of a starting point for negotiations on that stuff.

Two tags is typically how that works with guaranteed. Right, exactly. That's where most agents would start. And so if you're getting edging closer to free agency and then, I mean, if he actually reaches true free agency, that's where the literally the sport changes. Literally the sport changes if Dak Prescott continues to play like a superstar and gets to actual free agency. That's like the cap keeps rising $10 million a year.

I don't even, it would be irresponsible of me to give out a number that he might get per year if he ever reached for agency and was the superstar in 2022 that we think he can be. That would be ludicrous. And so that's, that's what's interesting to me. And that's also just the leverage he has. I mean, like Aaron Rogers took, took a deal with two years left on his deal two years ago. And so the tag. is deeply unfair, but you can play it to your advantage, and Dak Prescott is probably going to play it to his advantage.

If he actually had free agency, I think it would be like three years 125. That's exactly what I was going to say. I was going to say three years 120. I think that's, there's no question he would get that. So I just wanted to like, if you're Dallas, this game of chicken is so weird to me. Like, look at what happened with Washington and Kirk Cousins.

Kurt Cousins, whatever you think about Kirk Cousins, the Redskins are in a much worse place because they didn't end up paying Kirk Cousins. So why do you want to play that game if you're Dallas? It just, it feels like we're reaching almost an inevitable conclusion here. And I just don't get why they're going about it this way. Yeah. So Wentz and golf are making in the low mid-threes, like 32 and 33, something like that. I think right now you just ask, do you give Dak 35 and his call it a day?

Oh, I think you'd have to give 36. I mean, he'd have to make more than Wilson. I think that's probably. Yeah, no, that would. That was off is at 33. Is that correct? Something like that. Whatever, you give him a little bit more than those guys and, and you call it a day.

That would be my, my offer. And I would do everything I can to get it done. I would also 33. 33 and a half for golf. And I think Wilson's exactly 35. Wilson, right. Wilson's at 35, right? I think Wilson is more comparable right now to Prescott, even though I think Wilson's obviously a better player and more accomplished at this point. But again, this is projecting forward and it's also leverage and all that stuff. I think the 2016

debate, as I've said a couple times is is over for right now, barring some crazy, unforeseen surge by one of those guys. Prescott is the best quarterback from 2016 draft class. And until I see something different, he should be paid more than those guys, especially when you consider he bet on himself for half season. And so I don't, anyway, I just think that there's the, the Zeke Elliott contract is already aging pretty badly. Probably shouldn't give them $50 million guaranteed. You want that money for Murray Cooper.

It's the Cowboys are in a very, very strange place. And I think that one of the things that I don't want to overrate is that the Patriots defense and the Patriots in general can can turn any team into a crisis really, really quickly. because they make every offensive looking competent. They make so few mistakes and then force other teams to make a mistake. Jerry Jones is absolutely going crazy about the special team stuff. And I agree with that. But the Patriots are always going to have better special teams than you.

Always. That's sort of what they do. They force teams to make mistakes on the edges. And that's kind of what happened on Sunday. And so- Stefan Gilmore also erased Amari Cooper. It was incredible. Exactly.

Exactly. And so I don't want to overstate how bad, Sunday was because the Patriots make everybody look like that. But right now, the Cowboys have to do something to solve all their problems. And I don't, I don't think the status quo in 2020 is it. I just don't understand how you can rationalize moving forward with this current iteration. It's just, it's such a mistake because they, they have so much talent. They only have so long to do this. And I just, I can't believe that they could look at themselves in the mirror this offseason and think that Jason Garrett is the guy. Well, I mean, like, they,

kind of do this a lot. They kind of look at themselves in the mirror and then make irrational decisions. I saw this great stat that Brady is still undefeated against the Cowboys. He's 5 and 0. He's undefeated against five teams. Can you guess who they are? Just a couple. We don't need to go through all five, but just a couple.

Well, it's clearly not any of the AFC East teams. That's correct. Has he lost, he's never lost the Steelers, has he? He has. When was that? That I don't remember. I can always, I just remember him beating them pretty much every single time. Who, what are they?

Well, one of them is the Chicago Bears. That's why I bring it up. Oh, God, that's no game. They're all NFC teams. This stats via the NFL. Cowboys. That's no game eight years ago. Falcons, Bears, Vikings, bucks.

How many times do you played against the Bears, though? Twice? Five. Yeah. Jesus Christ. He's been a league for so long. Did you do the Eternal's? Turnal Sunshine thing on Brady versus the Bears three times.

I guess it was last year and then the snow game in 2011 and two more games besides that. That makes sense every four years. I don't remember the other two before that though. The snow game and last year are very painful for me. So, all right, let's move on. The Bears won today. You didn't need to make me sad about the Bears during this podcast. Before we move on, let's take a quick break.

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I'd like to start with the Seattle Seahawks. That was an ugly, ugly game. I expected to be more entertained by that game. It was not easy to watch. So, Carson Wentz, huh? It's brutal. I mean, we were talking about this last week. We keep trying to convince ourselves that the Eagles are going to be okay

and they just don't seem to be okay. Okay, I wish, yeah, I wish they were okay. I mean, this is a bad football team. that still has the chance because of what the NFC East looks like. They still have the chance to become the team that we thought they were going to be. Listen, there's a lot of mediocrity in the NFL. So let's not kind of, again, write the obituary for them yet. But I did not, but I came away thinking less of both of these teams.

But from my perspective, a win is a win for Seattle. Russell Wilson is the first quarterback in history to lead his team to a winning record in his first eight seasons. And that was clinch today. So congratulations to Russell Wilson. But yeah, I mean, this is, I guess we should have expected this. You know, I thought Shakeem Griffin had an awesome game. And I was just happy to see that.

That's such a, you know, I think that the Seahawks defense is shaping up to be a really good solid defense. We saw this today. But I just also think that, you know, Carson Wentz just just, just came. can't do anything. And I guess my question to you would be, you know, we talked a little bit about the 2016 quarterback class and we can debate that ad nauseum. But with Carson Wentz right now, what is he going forward, not only for the rest of this season, but then 2020, 2020, 2021 as well. I think today was kind of a terrible game for him. I think for the most part, he's been okay this year. We had a long conversation about him on the Thursday show. And it's been tough to judge him

just because it's been hard to work with what they have on offense this year. It really has. And today was a terrible, terrible game. And it's probably the worst he's looked all season. But I think moving forward, there's definitely a way and there's definitely a world where it's going to be okay with him. I don't look at that contract and think, what were they doing? For the most part, if you look at the numbers on that deal, it's actually pretty palatable.

You know, his cap number next season is $18 million. And then after that, I don't think there's. a year where he makes more than 33 until like 20, and when you think about what Jared Gough is making and what some of these other guys around league are making, it's a really well-structured contract. So it's the number looks really big, but I don't think it's going to be a burden for them.

Today was an awful day, but I still think that there are brighter days ahead with him. Hey, so there's that stack going around now. Carson wants this three and eight against teams with entered a game with the winning record last two seasons. Is every quarterback just have that now? Every time it's harder to beat good teams. Yeah, I know.

But like, I just think it's so funny. Every time someone loses now, it's like Kirk Cousins had that for a while. He hadn't even beaten a team like that. I mean, I guess, so Wence was 9 and 8 against a team's winning record in 16 and 17. I don't know. I just thought that was,

that's a very funny thing now where basically every quarterback has that record. I don't even know how that works. I guess Tom Brady is just undefeated against a bunch of teams. I think Carson Wence and Kirk Cousins and all these other guys are just. like three and eight against against winning teams anyway yeah i think the patriots are really good every year and i think that after other than that it's really hard to beat good teams yeah well that good

team is always the patriots and tom brady's undefeated against everybody yeah exactly that's how this that's how this math works but yeah i mean i just i don't know um this is again the game i thought that was still going to happen um but i was i was very very disappointed the eagles who were not going to be the team that the you know they're probably probably not going to win the Super Bowl maze. I don't think that's going to happen.

I think that ship is probably so. Looking less and less likely. Carson once also said that Philly fans have the right to boo him, which I would stress would probably happen

whether or not he gave them consent or not. All right. Let's get to our next stock up here. Is Ryan Tannahill going to be the starting quarterback for the Titans next year? I believe he is,

yes. I think he is too. I just don't see a world where that doesn't happen. I mean, maybe they drafts, maybe they drafts, Maybe they draft someone, but it's starting to look more and more like this is going to be the answer for at least the short term.

I want to ask you if the Titans are good. But I also don't want to ask you if the Titans are good because we don't want this conversation to last for three hours. I have no answer for you. It's going to last 10 seconds because I don't know the answer. I have no idea how good the Titans are ever. That's just my resting state. with this franchise. I kind of feel like the conversation

is us just stammering for three hours. What do you think the answer is? I don't know either, but there's a lot more us and just being completely befuddled by everything that I've seen. I mean, like, this is a weird team. I will say, Derek Henry ran,

this is from next gen stats, ran 20.6 miles per hour on his touchdown today. And no one has run 20 or more miles per hour more times than him except Dalvin Cook and Christian McCaffrey. Like this guy is a really, really good athlete. I mean, I won the Heisman and all that, but he's a damn good player.

And I think that Ryan Tannahill being rejuvenated, you know, I saw a couple stats for he was basically had done things today that no one since Steve McNair had done with his arms and his legs. in Tennessee. Yeah, I mean, I think that the, you know, Marcus Meyerert is not getting his job back. That's over. And now it just comes down to do the Titans,

are the Titans even one of those teams who are looking next year? I don't know the answer. I don't, if they chose to roll with Tanna Hill, I wouldn't be upset about that. They've actually looked pretty good. And I think that they have some talent on both sides of the ball. And I don't know if it's the best long term plan. But if you're kind of sitting there,

you're Tennessee. What's their record right now? Six and five. So you're six and five. Let's say they end up nine and seven. You have the 17th pick in the draft. That's not an easy place to get a quarterback. It's there's probably a good chance with the way they've spent their money that whoever you picked wouldn't give you a better shot next year than Ryan Tantanhill. So if you wanted to give Tannahill a two year, $40 million deal, Is that so terrible? Hmm. I don't know the answer to that. How much would he get on the open market if he was a free agent?

I'd say 20 is a safe bet. I think that's the going rate for starting quarterbacks right now. That's a lot of money. I don't know. Case Keenham got three years 54 from Denver. That's kind of my baseline. Yeah. Case Keenum also, you know, I think that teams overrate playoff success.

Case Keenham won a playoff game. He was a quarterback of a really talented Vikings team. Every starting quarterback on a veteran contract right now makes more than $18 million a year. I'm aware of that. Every single one. I know. I'm just saying, first of all, there's going to be a really, really crowded veteran quarterback market this off season.

That may push it down. Andy Dalton, Jamis Winston, Lada, Cam Newton, who should make more than $20 million. By the way, it's still under contract. track, but, and might just come back. No, I know. I mean, also just might come back to Carolina. But I don't know. I mean, listen, there's a lot of football left to be played.

I will say that I have no idea in the same way that I just can't even fathom whether the Titans are good. I cannot fathom what's going on with the AFC sixth seed. Do you know who has it right now? I actually don't look. Don't look. No, no, no, no, don't look. I know the answer.

Did you already look at out? It's Pittsburgh Steelers. Jesus. The Pittsburgh Steelers led by Duck Hodges, who I didn't even know we were referring to his, I know that the guy's Hodge's nickname was Duck, but I didn't know he just replaced his first name. So there are three teams that are six,

there are four teams that are six and five. Uh-huh. So the Steelers thing might be temporary. I'm aware of that, but. I mean, so first of all, you have, here are the six and five teams. It's Tennessee, it's Oakland, and it's Pittsburgh. The bills have a two-game lead in the wild card. Cleveland, Cleveland, according to 538, has actually a better chance because of their schedule

to make the playoffs than Tennessee or Oakland. They're at 30%. The Browns absolutely could make the playoffs. They're five and six right now. Oh, God. It just all of this stuff doesn't matter anyway because none of these teams are actually any good, even though we don't know how good the Titans are.

So the Patriots are going to the Super Bowl no matter what. So all of this just seems to be for naught. But I really have enjoyed just with the mess that the 60 and the AFC has been this year. I got to tell you something. This Texans, Texan Steelers is going straight into that Cardinals, Panthers, Memorial Saturday afternoon slot. Who were the starting quarterbacks in that game?

In that Cardinals? It wasn't Ryan Lindley, right? It wasn't Drew Stanton because he got hurt. I thought it was Ryan Lindley. Was it Ryan Lindley? That was an all. I was a terrible. 2014, starting quarterbacks in that game were

Ryan Linley and Camnute. Ryan Linley finished 16 to 28 for 82 yards. in a playoff game. I thought there were more injuries than that. Was John Skelton around for that? John Skelton was not a part of this, no. I think that was a little bit earlier. This is a Ryan Linde game, man.

16 to 28 for 82 yards. John Skelton, not even the top John Skelton on Wikipedia because there was an English poet and tutor to King Henry the 8th. What a disaster for Skelton. Kerwin Williams also had 10 carries for 23 yards. The Arizona offense was not very good. skeleton in 2014 didn't make the Cardinals. He was on the team.

All right. Speaking of the AFC playoffs, let's give a quick stock up to the bills because it seems like the bills are definitely going to make the playoffs right now. Yep, yep. Good for them. I mean, I think that we both have the same opinion about the bills.

I wrote about Josh Allen last week and I kind of gave a nod to this in what I wrote. They're a year ahead of where they should be right now. I don't know how good the bills are. They've won a lot of games against very bad teams. I'm not sure they're an actual threat in the AFC. but I also think they're going to have about $80 million in cap space next year and a couple holes to fill. And they're progressing in the right direction.

And, you know, good for them. I'm excited for Bill's fans to get to have a playoff game. That's pretty much all I have to say about that. How about Frank Gore passing Barry Sanders? Third all time in rush yards now. That's incredible. Frank Gore is going to make the Hall of Fame, which I don't know how I feel about that. I feel great about it.

I like Frank Gore. I support Frank Gore. Gore and all he does. I also think that playing for a long time and accumulating stats is not the most impressive way to get the ball fan. I mean, but I'd rather Frank Gore be in the hall fan than like some dork quarterback. Oh yeah. I'd rather Frank Gorby in the hall of fame and Eli Manning. But that's what I'm out. Well, it's unfair of you to ask me that. You know how I feel about Philip Rivers. I understand that, but I'd rather see Frank Gore made the hall of him than Philip Rivers. I'm fine with Philip Rivers.

being in the Hall of Fame. Phil Rivers was a very good quarterback for a very long time. All three of this week will probably go into the Hall of Fame. Do you feel better? Yeah, that's fine with me. Good for all of them. All right. Let's get to stock down.

The Green Bay Packers did not have a very good day. A lot of stock downs, stocks down, and the Green Bay Packers are among them. I want to say this. The 49ers to me, even though Kyler Murray had success against them last week, The 49ers to me are almost in the Patriot zone where they are so capable of sending a team into crisis that you almost can't really, you can't really believe what you're seeing. I kind of think that you have to throw out how you did against 49ers if you get the breaks blown off you, right? There's a stat I saw from stats at LSD that was interesting. The Patriots and 49ers are the 12th and 13th teams since the merger to outscore their opponents by 15 or more.

points per game through 11 games, okay? 10 of those 11 previous teams made the Super Bowl, eight of them won. Okay? So despite all the schedule stuff, and, you know, Lord knows that both these teams have played a lot of bad quarterbacks. But the Patriots and the...

But you're supposed to beat the shit out teams that are worse than you. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. The Patriots and the 49ers are just destroying teams. And if you're one of those teams, I don't think you, you overstayed it.

I think that I came into this game thinking the Packers were not among the elite of the NFC and I still believe that. I didn't learn a whole lot except that maybe the gap was bigger than I thought. The Packers' weaknesses

have really kind of come to light over the last few weeks. I think that their offensive line depth is a serious concern. I mean, after Blogga went down, they were done. They had absolutely no chance to stop that front with Alex Light in the game.

And I think that their secondary has been an issue. And Kevin King had a really terrible night tonight. I think that their safety play has struggled at times this year. I think they've struggled to defend the middle of the field. They've been really good in stretches, and they have some really good players on that team. But I think that what's wrong with them right now is going to hold them back in a way that the other good teams in the NFC

aren't going to get held back. So let's quickly rank the NFC teams in your opinion. Is San Francisco number one for you? Probably. Yeah. I still think New Orleans is in that conversation for me. Yeah, New Orleans looked very, very strange day, dude.

Yeah, it was an odd day. I mean, it's been an odd stretch for them. They looked really good last week, but that Falcons game now looks weird. You know, they gave up a ton of points to Kyle Allen today. I don't know. I still have a lot of faith in that team, but it's been an odd couple weeks for them.

I will definitely admit that. I saw Aaron shots today in the press box and we were watching a little bit of red zone and we were talking about it and he brought this up and so you know every, statistically the Saints continue to just look great. And every time we looked up to the television, they just looked off. And that's kind of what the Saints have looked like this year. Where it's just for some reason there's something missing with the eye test. I'm not sure what that is. And I think that eventually once, you know, listen, Breeze has been out the whole, that whole deal. but I think that I'm just not there on the Saints being on the same level as the Niners just yet.

I would say Niners Saints and then would you go of the three Seattle, Minnesota Green Bay. Who would you have third? I'd have Seattle. That's tough for me. I guess I probably say Seattle because of how well Wilson's played all year. But I also, I don't know. I think Minnesota is really good. That tier to me is very crowded.

That's what I would say. Okay. I think those, the two teams that you mentioned first are, I kind of think in a class above everyone else. And I think that those next three teams are a step below, but they're all right there. Yeah. I think that that's probably fair. And then, you know, there's just a host of just really disappointing, crappy NFC teams

I want to talk about. Let's get to one of those right now. Stockdown, Matt Patricia, when you lose to this Washington team, it's clearly not going very well for you. This is one of those things where, okay, Matt Stafford has a serious injury. There were some reports, oh, he wants to play again this year.

That's usually a bad sign. But I don't care if you or I are quarterback. I don't care if Dracquell is your quarterback. You can't lose to the Washington Redskine. There were like 11 people in the crowd. Dwayne Haskins missed. The tickets were $4 this week. Dwayne Haskins missed the final.

play because he was taking a selfie with fans. The Redskins are just completely I don't even know. You're not allowed to lose to Bill Callahan. You're not allowed to lose to the Redskins. The Lions lost to a team today

whose quarterback went 13 of 29 for 156 yards. Like if your quarterback is Jeff Driscoll, that's a problem. But you also played against a team who does not have competent quarterback play. Dude, you know who? continues to look like an awesome coach,

Jim Caldwell. Yeah. The fact that Jim Caldwell actually did something with this Lions team is remarkable. Like Matt Patricia, should we fire Matt Patricia? If they fired him after the season, would you think that's unreasonable?

No. I don't think so either. They have made absolutely no progress. I mean, I like their offense this year. No progress. I think that they've been more fun to watch. I think that the style of play they have had on offense has lent to Matthew Stafford actually being pretty good this season.

But for the most part, they have made very little progress. And Matt Patricia is supposed to be a defensive coach. So whatever progress has been made by the offense, I am not impressed with what their defenses looked like all season. It's just, this is not a good team. And I just don't know what the answer is right now. They're 26th in defensive DVOA after spending a lot of money this offseason. Yep.

Going out and getting Trey Flowers, all that. And Justin Coleman. They spent a lot of money. This is a team that made a dip into free agency this year. This is not a team that's in some sort of rebuilding stage. They wanted to be good this season. I will say this. I do not think Matt Patricia would win 13 games with the Cowboys.

I appreciate that. All right. One more stock down. What the hell happened to the Raiders today. Man, what a tough one. Last week, I decided on Sloanoo's day I was no longer making fun of

John Gruden and then he immediately gets his doors blown off by Sam Darm of Adam Gase and the New York Jets. What was that? That was easily the most shocking result of the day today. I just could not believe that as this team is trying to make

the playoffs, that this is what happened. They pulled their quarterback against the Jets. Well, you know, going west to east, maybe there was some problems there. I don't know. I just thought the Raiders had more talent than this. I thought that they've been a good team this year.

Like, legitimately they've been a good team, especially on offense. And to not be able to do anything against this Jets team is just absolutely mind-boggling. Yeah. So Sam Darnold, his last three games, seven touchdowns, two rushing touchdowns. touchdowns, one pick, 65% completion percentage. I saw our boss, Sean Fennessee, tweet out that the Donald thing, quote, seems real again. I don't know if I would go that far, but I've been incurred. I do not think that Sam Darnold is among the worst quarterbacks in the NFL.

And statistically, he was for, I don't either. For a large part of the season, I think he's just kind of, I think Sam Darnold is returning to kind of what he is, which is a pretty good quarterback. I thought he was really impressive against Dallas, which is why what happened over the past month is kind of surprising to me. I was very, it was surprising to me just to watch what happened to him after that game. Because I was like,

when he came back healthy, I was like, all right, but let's, I'm interested in this. And it just seems like he's closer to this guy than he was in those couple games after the Cowboys win. I just don't think he's a bad quarterback.

I'm with you. So the Jets just continue. knew to be involved in weird games. The Cowboys game was one of the weirdest games of the year. The Dolphins game was just just outrageous. The, uh, and then today, just a 34 to three drubbing of a team we thought was going to make the playoffs. The AFC is drunk. It's really remarkable. I, I've really, I've enjoyed watching it. I just don't know anything about it aside. And then also, by the way, we didn't even talk about the fact that the Jets already decided, committed this week to bring Adam Gase back,

which you got to do. I mean, they already did. They said, no, that's what I said. Yeah, they said, Chris Johnson came out

and said, we're bringing Adam Gase back, which I'm not totally sure why you had to give him a vote of confidence. I mean, the tanking situation gets more funny every single week. The Bengals have this locked up now. Because the Redskins have two wins.

The Giants have two wins. The Jets are, how many wins do the Jets have now? The Jets are four and seven. The Jets are going to make you fly off. The Jets. The Jets have, they absolutely, could they? Is that possible?

Yeah, they have less than 1% chance, but it's possible according to 538. The Jets have the same record as the Chargers. The Jets have the same record as the Jaguars and the Chargers. And the Bucks, they have a better record than the Lions. I love that we do this every single year. They're two games up on the Giants. We go through this every year with the AFC and none of it matters. Speaking of the NFC.

Speaking of the NSC, are you upset that the Falcons hot street came to an end? Vita Via, Bea becoming the heaviest player. Heavyest player at a score touchdown? That's an amazing stat. I'm not sure how he feels about that, but I certainly enjoy it. Points or points. I just, yeah, I don't think the Falcons are, uh, wherever very good. I think that this is kind of a mirage, so good for the Falcons.

Adam Gase getting the Jets to four wins. That's pretty good. All right. You have a challenge flag you want to throw outside of just throwing it on the entire NFL today? I want to call a literal flag at the tripping surge. That was an awful call. Kevin Sefert tweets out that there were seven tripping calls in the entire NFL in the entire league going into Sunday. And there were three today.

Two basically cost the Cowboys, two big drives. And then there was one in Philadelphia, I believe. I saw him tweet out as well. I don't know what's going on. This is, that's a weird call. I saw someone said, Riley McHenka, he said saying that their linemen have to have their feet on the ground at all times, which doesn't seem possible.

It's not possible. Since that's what. Walking, for instance, would be a violation of that, which apparently if you looked at the replay walking is a violation because I don't think anyone did anything wrong. I think that there's a real, we've talked about this with holding Twitter, right, where there's a real capability to just ruin the sport. If you want to start calling everything by the letter of the law, same with past interference. It's just a very complicated sport. And my advice is to stop calling tripping. Yeah, it's the points of emphasis with the officials this year have been confusing to say

the least. I mean, we've had the past interference stuff, but also just changes week to week. I know. And that's the weirdest part about it is I just don't understand the vacillations and what's being called and why. It's, and if you're a team that's trying to just operate, it just seems difficult right now because you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know what's going to be emphasized every single week. You don't know how these plays are just going to be able to torpedo drives. It just, yeah, I,

it makes absolutely no sense to me. And I, the surge this late in the season is very confusing. I mean, it hurts the product. Yes, it does. And games are ruined. Listen, the Cowboys did a lot to ruin themselves on Sunday, a lot. But let the Cowboys screw themselves

up. They'll do it. If you give them the chance, they will do it. They help them, they help screw themselves a lot on Sunday. But I think that you come away from every game now feeling very unsatisfied because there's always some strange call that makes no sense. It's not obvious that changed the course of the game. And that's what happened on Sunday with two tripping calls. That was just strange. It was bizarre. It doesn't even make people angry. It just makes people say, what? What the hell? I don't have a challenge flag because it feels like we've been throwing challenge flags for this entire show because it was a pretty brutal day.

So I'll just throw another one of Jason Garrett. What do you think we're going to be talking about this week? Do you think it's because Cowboys Panic? Yeah, probably Cowboys Panic. Probably some Eagles panic, which is funny because one of those teams are going to make the playoffs. I know. And they play each other, I think, next week, right?

No, week 16. 16. Yeah. For some reason. Brian Curtis and I were talking about that. Brian Curtis and I were talking about that game. Can you not see just like pitch black at 3 p.m. that game, you know, Troy and Joe on the call,

and that for the NFC championship. That's where I'm, the NFC's championship. I'm really excited about that game. I forgot that the Cowboys play on Thanksgiving, which reminds me that I have to watch the Bears play the Lions on Thanksgiving, which I just am not interested in whatsoever. Matt Patricia against Matt Nagy,

the battle of, the battle of two guys who would not win 13 games with the Cowboys. The Bears are five and six, which is just, hey, who would do the worst job with the Cowboys? boys. Who's the worst coach in the NFL? What you say?

Matt Patricia. Hey, would Bruce Ariens win 13 games with the Cowboys? I would take Bruce Ariens over Jason Gary. Okay. Would Doug Moran win 13 games with the Cowboys? Probably not. I don't know about that one, dude. I think he might.

Doug Moron's team is four and seven, Kevin. Right, last one. Brian Flores? I don't know. That's a tough one. It's hard to judge Brian Flores at this point. All right. Let me ask you.

let me ask you the opposite question. How many, how many wins with Jason Garrett get if he coached the dolphins? The answer is zero. So we don't even have to worry about that. The answer is zero. Let's end on that. All right. We get Lamar on national television tomorrow, which I'm very excited about.

Thank God. It's going to be a nice little reprieve from the day that it was in the NFL. All right, guys, as always, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. We'll be back later this week. We will not be recording on Thursday, obviously, because it's Thanksgiving. we will have a show for you previewing week 13. So be on lookout for that on Wednesday. And until then, enjoy Lamar Jackson and Pride Time.