The Ryan Hanley Show - The Retirement Fallacy: Embracing Fulfillment Now | Derek Coburn

Episode Date: May 19, 2025

Join our community of fearless leaders in search of unreasonable outcomes... Want to become a FEARLESS entrepreneur and leader? Go here: https://www.findingpeak.com Watch on YouTube: https://link.ryanhanley.com/youtube Master of the Close - Learn how to scale your sales, fast: https://link.ryanhanley.com/masteroftheclose What if retirement is the biggest lie you’ve been sold? In this thought-provoking episode, Derek Coburn—author of Let’s Retire Retirement—joins Ryan Hanley to dismantle the traditional retirement narrative. Instead of grinding it out for “someday,” Derek makes the case for building a life of meaning, fulfillment, and freedom now. Whether you're an entrepreneur, executive, or just someone tired of living for the weekend, this conversation will challenge everything you thought you knew about success, time, and what it means to truly live. Pre-Order Let's Retire Retirement: https://amzn.to/45gFUty What You’ll Learn: Why the retirement dream is outdated (and dangerous) How to design a fulfilling life without waiting until 65 The hidden cost of deferring joy Practical steps to integrate passion, purpose, and profit today This isn’t about escaping work—it’s about upgrading life. Recommended Tools for Growth OpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opus Riverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riverside Shortform - The World's Best Book Summaries: https://link.ryanhanley.com/shortform Taplio • Grow Your Personal Brand On LinkedIn: https://link.ryanhanley.com/taplio Kit: Email-First Operating System for Creators (formerly ConvertKit): https://link.ryanhanley.com/kit

So I got a question for you. Hit me. Um, and we can talk later if you don't have time. So do you think, um, this is relative to your, your, like your Ted talk, what you've been going through in your life, what I've been going through in my life in a similar way, this is like an existential question that I've been pondering for a while, do you think it is possible to play a different game than the game that most people are playing without winning the

primary game first. We had money in the bank, we had time, we had things that we had on our side that allowed us to go through all that shit to emerge on the other side, wanting to do something different. I don't know that a single dad with a nine to six job probably couldn't have done it the way that I did it. Yeah, I think so I think there's two sides to that. So one, I have both had the money and not had the money at different times. Yep. Right? So I felt it both ways. Here's where I kind of come out on this. I honestly don't know if you can do it the way everyone does it and truly be successful and happy anymore. I think even the people that choose that

path, I don't think they're happy with that path. I think they've just made a compromise to find harmony in their life and maybe another place, right? Like I really love doing hundred mile runs and being at my kids' sports games. So I'm going gonna work this, you know, nine to five type job that, you know, maybe I can do well, but don't particularly care for. But it allows me to do the other things that I have in my life. I think if you consciously make that decision, and that was a big part of where the TED Talk came from, if that's a conscious decision, more power to you. Yeah. I think where people really, and I think this is where a lot of people are finding themselves today is

they didn't consciously make that decision. Right. Now they're flailing and searching and grasping and chasing every $27 faceless YouTube video course they can buy to try to find something that's fulfilling in their life. Or they turn to drugs or alcohol or sex, or they, you know, whatever other destructive thing they can do, because they weren't consciously making decisions.

They were following a path that they thought they were supposed to follow. That being said, I think you have to find your way of doing things and it's the only way to do it. I think if you've already made it, it's substantially easier because because of the transfer that you get the transfer expertise. So if you are you're very successful at one thing and then you pick a second thing that you want to be very successful at a lot of the trust respect that you get in the other will be transferred over and that makes it a lot easier to jump. However, I do think that if you're doing something unique and you give yourself an appropriate timeframe

to be successful, I think you can do it on the side. I absolutely think you can. I think what people miss on that is, I think what people miss is they set expectations like it's the only thing they're doing They have plenty of cash in the bank to ride through the down times When you know that person it may only take them six months to a year to get where they want to be Yeah person who's doing as a side hustle or isn't capitalized it might take you four years or five years to get there

You need to be okay with that need to be okay with that. Yeah. In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. One, I love the way that you're approaching this topic. Like I think it's fucking incredible. Thanks, man. This is a topic that no one is talking about, yet everyone is dealing with, a la the conversation we just had in the green room. Like there are, I think this is a real existential problem. And like, you know, I know part of the catalyst for writing this book was your dad

and the issues that he went through, the health stuff that he went through. But like, where did this come from in your own life? Like, was this something you were dealing with and you felt like you had to get through this and then you wanted to write it? Or are you dealing with it right now? Like, what in your life was like,

this is something I gotta put the work in necessary to write a book about? You know, I started writing the book. I had the idea to write the book in 2017 and that sort of just stemmed from, I've been a financial advisor for almost 27 years. I sold my practice to a private equity company in 2019, had an earn out, have my clients, handful of clients I've been working with for a long time that I want to continue to

work with, but I'm not really looking to grow my practice anymore. When I started writing the book, none of that was on the table. I was like, I want to write a book as a way to attract more clients for my practice. It was going to be written for people that have minimal investable assets of $5 million and more. And then I was approached out of nowhere about selling the practice, then COVID happened, and my father got sick in the meantime. And because I got some money and I got some space

and I got to really kind of take a step back and look at my life, I was like, oh, I don't need more clients, I don't want more clients. I get to come back to this book and focus on writing it for a broader audience in a way that will hopefully be helpful to a lot more people than if I would have just plugged along and tried to write a book that was gonna be a fancy business card

to grow my practice. Yeah. But I was having these conversations with clients since like 2005, 2010, I always thought it was very interesting that when people meet with a financial advisor, financial advisors don't say, do you want to retire? They say, what age do you want to retire? We're automatically opted into this thing.

And most people say, I don't really know. And they say, well, why don't we just go with 65? Because that's what everyone else picks. And people say, sure. And then they get this number that feels Really big and unattainable it stresses them out it causes them to skip workouts and skip family dinners and and have less sleep and and And and really take them away from where they want to be and what we're seeing is that a lot of people are getting there

They're finding this retirement thing is not what they were promised It would be they don't feel the way they thought they were going to feel, and they're going back to work. And so I'm just trying to get the attention of people well before this point to help them realize that as long as you don't hate what you do, if you can find some work that you enjoy doing, ideally, you're going to do it longer than you think. And because of that, you don't have to save as much,

which means you now have more money and more time that you get to spend right now on the people and things that are most important to you. Yeah, I was really intrigued by the research in the book around like where retirement came from and how new of a concept this actually is. Like, you know, what, like the first retirement fund started, I think they're in your book, you say 1883 with American Express or something like that.

Like, it's, I mean, that's not that that's 140 years ago, 150 years ago. Like that's not that long ago that we retirement wasn't even a concept, wasn't even something that we thought about. And now all of a sudden it's like this goal that we're shooting for. Now, one of the things that I think is interesting is I have never even contemplated the idea of retiring. Like, I can't I honestly can't even imagine a day is I have never even contemplated the idea of retiring. I honestly can't even imagine a day

where I'm not doing something that is work, right? It might not be the work I'm doing today. It might be something different, but the idea of just one day turning the computer off and grabbing my mug and my pictures off my desk and walking out the door and never coming back and just I can't like I can't even imagine like what that life would look like. But I think also today and this is why I think this is so intriguing is we've been in a very inflationary state the last five plus years. The idea too that

you you're going to be able to get to a retirement age and know what that looks like, like what you actually need and that you're, like how do you even plan for that because of how crazy inflation has been? It used to be like what, three, 4% and you know, there was some calculation, but you know, when you're looking at years of 12, 15% inflation, I mean,

that has to mess everything up. Yeah, you know, one of my favorite books of all time is called Stumbling on Happiness by a Harvard professor named Daniel Gilbert. This came out 15 years ago, and I don't think he's written anything else since. But essentially what he's saying is that we all just do a terrible job of predicting what our future selves are going to want. And if you think about the assumptions that go into planning for retirement, that everything you just mentioned about inflation is true. And that's one component.

We also have to accurately predict what the tax rates are gonna be every single year for the next 25 years. What's your pre-retirement rate of return is going to be in your portfolio each year, probably. What your post-retirement average rate of return is going to be, among other things, including what year are you going to die?

What year is your spouse going to die if you're married? Are your parents in good financial shape and good health? All of these things that we have, it's akin to like picking a 10 game parlay on Fandle, right? And yet people are walking around living their lives on a daily basis, like they're gonna nail it and they're making all these choices about how to spend their money

and how to spend their time based on all of these things coming true. And we're gonna be wrong about every single one of them. So the one thing that I do for myself is I have a country club membership. I like golf. It's almost like, I'm not a big meditator. I've just never, I can't sit still for that long.

And I just don't, I mean, I get the value of it. I've just never, I can't sit still for that long and I just don't, I mean, I get the value of it. I've done it and I feel better afterwards, but it's just, I found that I'm just not gonna slow down and do it. However, going out and hitting a bucket of balls for 45 minutes and just that motion over and over again, I come away with a very similar feeling. I'm a little active and it really works for me and whatever. But there's this part of me that is like, like, dude, do you deserve, do you deserve to do that? And I think one of the, what you're really addressing is how to find harmony in our life today

and enjoying how we, you know, what we have in front of us today, as well as setting ourselves up and finding that so like when you when you're talking to someone about this concept how do you start that conversation with them because there's there's a lot of people I think that have my mindset which is like you know that's something all I don't deserve that until I've made it or I don't deserve that until I hit a certain age or I don't deserve that until my kids hit a certain age or whatever and we kind of we kind of push our life out into this future,

as you said, that we have almost no ability to predict. Yeah, I always like to start from the money angle, because I think people just really do not understand how much flexibility this frees up for them in the short term. There are so many people walking around that know deep down that they're not going to stop retiring, or stop working. There's even some people that know that consciously that they're never going to stop working, but they're still kind of living their lives based off the idea that they're going to

have this traditional retirement, that they need to save a certain amount of money. Like when they meet with their financial advisor every year, they're not saying, I'm going to work forever. They're just going along with the idea that they have to save this amount of money. So I share a story about a hypothetical guy named Tony in my book. And I say, Tony is 45 years old. He makes $150,000 a year, and he has $150,000 saved up for retirement. And if Tony wants to retire at 65, using all of the basic assumptions in our industry, 3% inflation, 7% return on his assets until retirement, 6% after and have him passing away at 95, if he wants to stop at 65, he has to save $2,400 a month in order to get

there, which is about 20% of what he's making which is a non-starter For most people if Tony says I'm gonna work until I'm 75 instead of 65 That number goes from $2,400 a month down to a hundred and ten dollars per month. It goes down by 96 percent If Tony says he'll work until he's 75 more years Which is I think likely to happen based on the number of people that we see re-entering the workforce after they retire, the number goes down to $600. It goes down by 75%. So once I share that with people and they're like,

oh yeah, like I've got this extra time and money, I can think about how I'm going to spend it differently. They feel better going to the driving range. They feel better taking the vacation. When I first start working with clients, hardly anyone comes in my office with their hand raised saying, I know I don't want to retire. So I'll humor them.

I'll ask them questions that they are expecting to be asked. Like, what are you going to do in retirement? I'm going to travel the world with my spouse. And I say, great. When was the last time you two went out on a date together? And nine times out of 10, they just sort of look at each other and they don't really know how to answer that question or someone will say I'm gonna play golf five days a week okay but you haven't been to the gym in four

years and you just had your hip replaced so when is this going to happen and I think what you probably see is the more time that we make for these things now the more likely it is we're gonna be able to continue to do them. So you go and hit golf balls, that's less time for you to spend on your business, but you come back to your business in a better frame of mind with more clarity, with less stress, you're being more productive there, and now you're also more likely to continue your golf habit well, you know, into your older age. It's so funny, dude, because when you're in your 20s and 30s,

like, and probably your 30s is where you start to learn the lesson. If you learn it is like you're just you're just go go go 24 seven. I do think there's seasons in your life where you need to press right? You need to press beyond what most people are doing. However, what I've found is that once you, and I think some of that is searching for your zone of genius, but once you figure out what your zone of genius is,

and you can start to monetize that, whether it's in a leadership position in a company, starting a company, you know, whatever, whatever your place is, and you can make some decent income, I've actually found at this point in my career, even though I'm capable of eight, 10, and when I need more hours in a day, I found that six hours is like if I work more than six

hours in a day, yeah, any of the hours past six hours of work, it's like bullshit. You know, my brain's not functioning. I'm not I'm not on top of my game. I'm not super creative. Maybe I can answer some emails, but I'm not getting anything done and anything that I do create in that time is usually something I'm then gonna have to rework or you know, I'm not super proud to begin with and that's a really tough. It's really tough to like to downshift. It feels like a downshift, but it's really not. Does it does

that make sense like I mean and I'm interested in your take on this. Like, I would rather at this point in my career give six hours that I know is A plus work. And maybe four is A plus and the rest is A minus B plus work. But like, then eight hours of C plus work or 10 hours of C plus work, which is I think what most people they convince themselves they need to do it even though they're not giving their best effort.

And one, do you agree with this concept? Two, have you found it? And three, like how do you start to reframe your mindset if you are that person that's still trying to grind and still burning yourself out and still not able to find that, that those places that you can get a little bit of your life back. Yeah, I think that the last chapter in my book is called investing in you. And I essentially say, hopefully, I've made a case for why you're going to be working longer. And if you agree, that means you now have this extra time and money that you get to spend on other things. And some of the things I mentioned there are taking better care of yourself and I think that in our society they we over emphasize

the long term benefits of things like sleep and diet and exercise and we under emphasize the significance and the impact of these things in the short term so yes like sleeping well is very good for you in terms of how you're going to feel 20 years from now but it's also extremely good for you in terms of how you're going to feel 20 years from now, but it's also extremely good for you in terms of how you're going to feel 20 hours from now. And I think that the best person for any of us to be getting advice from about anything is the most optimized version of us. And so many of us are not close to that at all. So we feel like we have to work all these extra hours to overcompensate for the fact that we're tired, we have brain fog, we're stressed out, we have anxiety, we're not thinking clearly. And if we were to take a step back and say, you know what, like, I'm going to make sure I sleep more, the quality of my sleep is going to be better, I'm going to make sure that I'm eating a gram of protein per pound of body weight, and I'm going to make sure that I'm getting exercise every single day. Yes, it means I have less time that I can work in my business.

But now this is a different version of me, a version of me that I'm really not entirely familiar with, that maybe I should give that version of me a shot to be even more productive and to get more things done and create better work done in a shorter amount of time. You know, it's funny, we talked a little bit in the green room and I've mentioned on the show in the past that like 2024 was an interesting year for me personally.

And I was chasing a lot of rabbits, trying to find cheap ways to feel good and all that kind of stuff. And like one day over the summer, you know, I'm probably like, four or five months into this maybe dark period of whatever. I like woke up one day, and I didn't feel good because I hadn't slept well and whatever. And I literally said like, I'm trying to feel good. Like that's the goal. Like I want to feel good. I want to feel like I have energy. I want to feel good.

And instead of just doing the things that will make me feel good, eat right, as simply as eat reasonably healthy, go to the gym four or five times a week and get a decent amount of sleep, I'm not doing any of those things and then masking the shitty feeling with some beers or smoking a joint or whatever.

And you're like, it just hit me. I'm like, how fucking stupid am I? Like, I know the thing. Like these things make me feel good all the time. These other things over here are these cheap little, you know, three, four hour hits of feeling good. Yet we always seem to move to the cheap easy. Like, how, and you know, and I'm sure you've had your

different struggles with different things at different times like everyone has. Like, how do you find we pull ourselves back to how do we convince ourselves to just feel good versus chasing the feel good with some sort of addiction or, you know, whatever, you know, for me, you know, I caught my eye to went through a bit of a period. You know, I'm probably overs know, I caught my, I too went through a bit of a period, you know, I'm probably oversimplifying it by calling it a midlife crisis, but that's probably what it was for me

for about a year and a half. And I kind of shook up the snow globe, marriage, you know, got rough for the first time, you know, in almost 20 years, I was, you know, becoming more short tempered. I realized that I found myself saying a lot of things like, I need to have sex with my wife in order to be the best version of me.

I need to have a glass of wine or a gummy every single night in order to relax. I need to have nicotine in order to focus. I need all of these things to feel a certain way. And by saying that, I'm also saying that I can't feel those things unless I use these methods to get there. And so I decided, and I don't recommend this, but I decided to sort of quit all of them cold turkey.

Not the sex part of my life, but worked on the relationship there. But like everything else, like quit cold turkey. And it became really difficult, like quick, cold turkey. It became really difficult, really hard for several months, but I started a meditation practice because you had never worked for me and it finally clicked. I started using Joe Dispenza's meditations and those worked really well for me. I just was able to think about patterns and why was I constantly needing something to

feel a certain way. And one of the things that emerged for me that I don't think would have emerged if I was constantly just feeding into my uncomfortable feelings with coping mechanisms is I just thought back to when I was younger, man, I thought back to, and I know you shared some of this in your story and your TED talk, but when I was in seventh grade, I had an entire classroom of kids chanting, who do we hate? We hate Derek.

And I had teachers telling me that I wasn't gonna be successful because I wasn't getting good grades. And I had girls shooting me down and telling me that I was never gonna have a girlfriend. And I just realized observing this energy in me that my entire life became one big giant, like, you don't think I can do something? Watch me. And I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water because

that energy got me a lot of amazing things. I'm married to an incredible woman. Our relationship is in an amazing place right now. I've got great kids. I have more friends than most adults I know, but I was still like feeling that energy. And it was still like, it was almost like every day I was waking up and my body was like, who are we going to start something with today? Because in order to prove someone wrong, you need an adversary. And so I've been like working and still am working to unwind that a little bit so that I can show up and create from not from a place of like wanting to get even with somebody but from a place of like just creating because it's what I want to do on my terms and for my reasons. Yeah that's really interesting so I struggle with that same thing because you know as you said it told my story in the Ted Talk and other places and like I have very similar right I was was the poor kid from the country. Actually, when I was younger, I was like chubby

and all this kind of stuff. So like my two nicknames coming into high school were Nassau, which is literally the town that I grew up in as a derogatory term. So like they use it as a derogatory term against me and Fat Boy. Those are my two nicknames coming into high school. Right now, Thank God that my

freshman year I grew six inches and all of a sudden I wasn't fat anymore because that solved some of the problems. But yeah, and then, you know, just my career and different things and like, you develop this chip. And once that chip sits on your shoulder, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what the success is. If you don't, as you said, like start to deal with it and start to understand where it's coming from, it's always there. Like you have a big win and you feel great for like 30 seconds and all of a sudden you're like,

okay, who am I gonna conquer now? Like I need to go conquer something else, someone else. I need to prove someone else wrong. And I struggle with that even today because I just, I find it to be such powerful fuel. It's like jet fuel. But I think, you know, and the way I've started to deal with it is like maybe, and I don't know this for sure, like I'm almost, I'd be super interested in your take having, knowing that you're kind of dealing with the same stuff is like,

I've kind of said like, okay, maybe this is just part of who I am for whatever reason, right? Maybe it's so entrenched in my personality that I'm simply not gonna be able to dig this out. So how do I take it and turn it from a negative into a positive? And the way I've been working through that here at 44

has been just simply competing against myself. How do I be a better version of myself? And the way that that has been positive for me has been sometimes that's being a little more understanding and less reactive to some crazy shit my kids do. Or not taking some hater online who, you know, comes after me for something that someone said on the podcast or whatever and getting emotional about it and just letting it roll because I it's more about my own performance, right? And I don't as long as I feel good

about it. So I mean, like, do you think you can you feel like you're gonna be able to deal with that and get rid of it? Or how or is it a tool that you use? And when you need it, you just pull it out of your tool belt, use that fuel for a bit and then you put it back in? Great question. So I think, look, I will say that I now feel just incredibly liberated knowing that I don't really need anything from anybody or any substance

in order to feel the way that I wanna feel. Like I'm going on walks with my family some nights and completely sober and it feels like I'm on drugs. I mean, it just feels like really good. And again, for me, when I needed wine or weed or nicotine or these other things in order to feel a certain way, I was basically saying I couldn't feel that way without them.

So being able to start feeling these things now has been really empowering. Look, there's a parable, there's a story in the Bible, and I'm not gonna get religious right now, but I will share this story because it's been really helpful to me. It's called the Parable of the Sower. And essentially it's about a seed

that falls down from the sky, and the seed is synonymous with Connection to God and feel free to call this like connection to the highest version of you There's four different examples of a seed falling from the sky and in three of the four examples It lands in the wrong place It land that it has it doesn't have the ideal situations to grow and it basically does nothing It doesn't have the ideal situations to grow and it basically does nothing. One out of four times it lands in fertile soil

and produces 100 fold is exactly what it says, 100 fold what was intended. So I just, I kind of got in this rhythm where I said a year, year and a half ago, if I want to connect with God, with source, with the highest version of me, I want to become very good at like the soil optimization game. I want to be very good at taking great care of myself.

I want to sleep well. I want to eat well. I want to feel well. I want to see how this version is guided. And look, man, this is a big part of the way this book came to be. This book really feels like I was channeling something from something much bigger than me. It wasn't difficult to produce once I got back into it. It flowed really easily.

And look, I'm, I'm resisting goals. My publisher's upset about this, but I'm resisting goals in terms of number of books sold, I'm resisting goals in terms of number of speaking events that I do because I just want to be open to where this thing could go. And my main goals are to show up when my book gets launched. I want to be in the best shape I've ever been in. I want the relationships that I have with my kids and my wife, my friends and God to be in a better place than they've ever been in.

And I just keep working on making sure that this is as optimized as possible. And I'm having really good results so far. So I'm doubling down and I'm gonna see where this you know how far I can take it. Yeah, I was listening to Tucker Carlson's podcast the other day. I like I like Tucker he he can be batshit crazy but I I really like him and and he was talking about he was talking about his faith and he said you know basically whether you believe in God or not, your soul is seeking

God, right? It is, right? And we find it in different ways. We can find it in, you know, we can pretend that we, you know, that we're secular, but ultimately when you look into how someone lives their lives, there's a religion in their life, like something in their life becomes a religion. We always have a religion somewhere, whether we call it God or not. I call it God.

I'm Christian and for a religion. We always have a religion somewhere whether we call it God or not. I call it God. I'm Christian and firm believer. And what I've, my point in saying all that is, what's been very interesting to me as I've gotten older and I've started to focus more on having a relationship with God, the more consistent that relationship is, the more at peace and in tune I've found my life to be. And that is not revolutionary information. You know, that's been said a million, probably 100 million times over the course of, you know, since Jesus, but it is 100% true that like, I find myself the most at peace when I am properly aligned with things that I consider bigger than myself, if that makes sense. Oh, yeah. it's about me, when the thing is I'm not making enough money, I don't have the position, not enough people are downloading my podcast

or whatever stupid thing is about me, my body starts craving sugar, it starts craving alcohol or whatever escape I can find. And when it's about God, when it's about, you know, when it's about God, when it's about my community, when it's about, you know, taking responsibility for the people in my company and making sure they're taken care of. And all of a sudden, it's like, miraculously, you don't need those things like your body just doesn't literally doesn't crave them. Yep. And, you know, I, you know, we haven't gone through these journeys. Um, like one, have you found that and two, how do you cultivate that in your life?

It seems like you might be going through it right now. Yeah. So look, it's funny you mentioned this because, um, the third chapter of my book is called happiness versus meaning. And I break down a lot of, and I share a lot of research around people that are that are pursuing happiness versus people who are pursuing meaning as it relates to retirement, but it applies in all areas of life. And so essentially there was a there was some research done where they they took a lot of people who half of them said I'm prioritizing personal happiness.

The other 50% said I'm prioritizing purpose and meaning and contribution beyond myself. And what they found was the people that prioritized happiness had a reaction in their body. Their body's response was the same response that a body has when it's dealing with chronic adversity, like the loss of a loved one, the loss of a job, inflammation markers went through the roof, immunity went down. These people were much more likely to get sick and dies is why you hear a lot of stories about people when they were retire, like they died two or three years later, like they lose their purpose.

And the people that that prioritize purpose, like they're here for something bigger than, than just themselves, bigger than like sitting on a beach and drinking fruity alcoholic beverages every single day, which I'm sure can be great for like a week or two, but at some point, I don't think that anyone is going to get lasting happiness from that. Their inflammation was low, their immunity was high. They were not here for the party, they were here to really continue to make a difference. And so ironically enough, pursuing happiness is a really bad way to achieve happiness.

And if you want to be happy, the data shows us like we just need to keep focusing on these things that go beyond us in our personal gain. And that is what's going to unlock feeling of bliss and happiness in our own lives. Dude, so this is so wild that you're saying this. So during the period that I've mentioned this, I don't mean to keep coming back to this, but it happened in the last year, so it's, you know, and I've worked my way out of it, so a lot of these things are like really clear in my mind.

During that time period, when I'm, you know, just felt very lost, rudderless, it was the first time in my life, I didn't know the next thing that I wanted to do. I didn't know, okay, I've always kind of known how I wanna contribute to whatever I wanted to do, and I literally don't know right now, right? Purposeless at that moment.

Maybe outside of making sure my kids were happy. Yep. You know, in Inca to place. I had this, I'll call it a testosterone scare. Like I, it's February of 2024. And it's, you know, I'm used to New York winners. I'm used to, you know, vitamin D deficiency. I'm used to the winter blues that happens up here,

which is a very real thing. You know, in Albany, New York, where I live, we see 66 days of full sun a year. That's it, 66 days. full sun a year that's it 66 days so like I'm used to what that feels like and how to navigate that and dude it was like I hit a brick wall I couldn't get out of bed no libido no energy did not want to go to the gym nothing like and I'm I'm a seven day a week guy when I'm dialed in, like, you know, in terms of working out. So I take this at home testosterone test

through one of the companies that actually Huberman recommends. And I find my testosterone is in the seventh percentile of men, the seventh. Basically I'm at zero. And like, so I call my doctor and I'm like, you know, at this point I'm 43. I'm like, I'm 43 years old, like pretty fit guy.

Like I'm not, like what the, what is going on? And so we start talking and basically she explains that like, and this is to your point about retirement, like she's like, when your body feels like you're done contributing, it essentially just starts shutting down. Like, it's just like, okay, you're done contributing, you know what I mean? Like you've hit your usefulness to society, like start shutting down. And it like, now, you

know, I took some I took, you know, some meds or whatever, I got myself back in track, and now I'm fine. But like, it was wild that in this moment, where I felt no purpose, no meaning, felt rudderless, didn't have energy, that my body was just like, he must be done. You know, we'll just stop doing the things that makes you like a man. It makes you, you know, in this case. And I honestly believe, and this is another reason why I would never retire, is like, I do honestly believe that your body is listening to you, and as long as you have purpose, have meaning, have a reason to keep showing up,

keep getting up in the morning that drives you, your body will do absolutely everything it can to make sure that you continue to show up. But the moment you like downshift into, hey, I'm just gonna coast, your body's like, we don't really need to keep going. We're good. And I have zero like evidence beyond, actually, most of the figures in your book are probably right there.

But like, I believe that's a real thing. And I think we have to be very cognizant of that, that we don't expect, hey, I'm gonna hit 62 and live for another 20 years in bliss, not working and being able to do all these things I want. Because as you say in your book, the year that when the retirement age was set at 62, the lifespan of a male was only seven more years. Yeah.

That's it. Yeah. Seven more years post-retirement. It was the average life expectancy. And you were getting a third of your income from social security, a third of your income from pension plans, which don't really exist anymore. And you had to supplement a third of your income for like six years. That's all you needed.

Like this was, we were never meant to come here to do something that we don't enjoy doing for 30 years to earn the right to sit around and do nothing at all after that for another 30 years. Yeah. So, you know, how do we, how do we start to really position this like tactically? Like if I'm sitting here and I'm going, I'm either that hand wringing grinder that can't stop, or I do have this false sense of this utopian life that I'm going to live when I hit a number. Like, what are some of the very maybe like first tactical things, even if it's just self awareness or an

exercise, or something that I can do to start to go, what do I really want? Like when you when you sit down, like, how do I determine like, what is it that I really want to do? Do I really want to retire? Like, how do I work through that mentally to start making these decisions? Yeah, look, I want to another good question. I want to double down and I have something else to add there, but I want to double down on the whole like, look, if you're tired, if you haven't been working out, if you're not eating well, if there's just a lot of stress in your life,

like I don't think that you should be calling upon this current version of yourself to be making important long term decisions about the future of the type of work that you're going to do and where you're going to live or who you're going to spend your time with. So I would really encourage people to spend a couple of weeks. I mean, I think that's all it takes to really make a big difference of committing to getting good sleep and eating well and let that version of you guide you in terms of how do I want to come at this? How do I want to approach it?

But look, ultimately, I would say that if you can find some work to do that is big P purpose, like that's great. And for some of us, we get to keep finding things to focus on and contribute and the work that we do to earn a living and it lights us up and it's how we want to spend our time. I don't, I think that like, I don't think everyone needs that. I think that what everyone needs is to not be doing something that sucks their

soul that they don't hate doing. But if you can find something, like I share a story about my brother-in-law has a friend who's got a job at a software company and he likes to work fine. Like he thinks it's pretty good and he likes his coworkers. He thinks that they're cool people. They have an incredible vacation policy that allows him to see Fish in concert 30 times a year, right? So going to these concerts is his passion

and he found work that allows him to do that, right? And now he might not continue to do what he's doing now, but he'll probably do something else as he gets older that will allow him to continue to spend his time and his energy and his efforts on things that light him up. Like I know people that their passion is they want to plan and organize the amazing two trips that all the friends take every single year or all the, all the, the big parties in the neighborhood or, and look, if you can find work that allows you to live out your, your passion in some other area that's great but

ultimately there's gonna be a lot of a lot of flexibility here I think by the year 2027 depending on where you get your information over 45% of the workers in the United States are gonna be freelancers there's gonna be a lot of companies if you have talents if you have skills and you're willing to to offer them they're gonna let you do it on your terms. So if you say look I want to work four days a week but I need all Friday Saturday Sunday I don't want to work summers I'm gonna take a two-year sabbatical and then come back at some point like you're gonna have these opportunities and during that time away during that

time off you know there's master classes, there's Udemy, there's all these other places, courses that you can go and learn new skills and learn different skills. And I think that there's so many jobs like that are gonna exist because of AI in 10, 15, 20 years that don't exist now. Like I heard Gary Vee the other day saying, and I agree, he's like there's gonna be a business in five or 10 years where people will pay you to go and walks with them. Um, like you have a certain topic of interest that they share. They want to hear your opinion on it and they're going to pay you 20 bucks to walk with them.

Yeah, I, I, I agree. I, I really like, I really like where you started to about spend some time and get your mind right before you make these long-term decisions. I think that's a really important point. I had a young guy listening to the show to randomly text me the other day. I don't even know how I got my phone number, but not that I cared.

And he's like, man, I'm struggling. I've been procrastinating. I'm ruminating on all these dark ideas and I'm not sure what I wanna to do in my life, whatever. He's like in his mid-20s and part of me was like, bro, you're a baby, like just keep going. Like you got a long way before you have to worry about some of these things. Like just keep going.

I didn't go to that room. He was in a place where I wanted to be very positive. So I'm just kind of like asking him questions like, hey, you drinking or smoking? No. I'm like, you know, what's going on with your sleep? He's like, I can't sleep, blah, blah, blah. And I said, well, are you working out? And he's like, no. I'm like, what's going on with your sleep? He's like, I can't sleep, blah, blah, blah. And I said, well, are you working out? And he's like, no.

I go, zero workouts. He goes, no workouts. I go, here's what I want you to do. Do not text me again for a month. Go work out four to five times a week for a month, and then I want you to text me. I guarantee the tone of your text will be different. And that was a little over a month ago,

and he texted me two days ago and was like, dude, I still don't know what I wanna do, but I'm sleeping, I'm feeling better, I'm not procrastinating on shit anymore. And sometimes it's just, get yourself in a in a position like You were the right things like it's you don't you can eat if you can eat fries Just eat reasonably well the rest of the week. You know, I mean like it's not I feel like we We've gotten into this black or white society where if I'm gonna eat healthy I have to be organic and you know vegetables and meat only and if I'm gonna work out

I gotta go seven days a week and have a program and it's like just do it start with a few things like start with just something small that gets you in the right direction and that momentum will take you there and then to your point then you once you're feeling a little better you can kind of pick your head up and look around and go okay what do I want to do? And I think this is something that I don't think we talk about enough is like the seasons of life, right? Like when you're in your twenties, just go do shit,

try shit, break shit, get fired, start a company, you know, go do, try different places in the country, whatever, whatever your life is, but like, like bang into things and see how they feel in your 20s. Like I think sometimes people get so hung up on, if I don't do my 20s right, then I'm screwed. And it's like, I'll tell you firsthand, I wasted my 20s. I had no idea what I wanted to do.

Yeah, I had jobs, but none of them were productive. None of them really set my course. I wasn't fulfilled by any of them. It wasn't until my 30s until I started to find those things. And now I find myself in a very good place, I work for a great company, you know, I get to talk to amazing people like you, I'm coming down to your book launch in a few weeks, like, you know, give yourself time and just incrementally grow instead of this like, if I don't do this now, I'm screwed. And then that puts you in a mindset of I'm screwed.

So now I'm not going to do anything. And then all of a sudden you find yourself 50 pounds overweight stuffing chips in your face while you're ripping down heaters and your life sucks. You haven't been laid in two years. Yeah, it's interesting. And we're thinking in our current situation, the way that we're currently showing up that these things are going to be really difficult.

And at first they are. But like for sleep, for example, I wake up now most mornings and the way I feel, I didn't know that feeling was on the menu a couple of years ago. I didn't know it was possible to feel that good and so for me like avoiding a glass of wine or two at night now it's less about oh I know this is really bad for me and it's more about I sort of traded one addiction for another like I'm more addicted to waking up and feeling amazing in the morning than I am from the feeling I'll get from having a glass or two of wine even like I'll show my age a little bit now, I'm 48. I went out last night with my family to a concert. It's 11 o'clock at night and there's a great pizza joint

right by the 930 Club in Washington, DC. And they all wanted pizza. And I love the pizza and it's really good, but I also knew that I have this conversation with you today. I've got a few other things that I need to do. And so it was just my body, my mind, my spirit, my soul, they were helping me in the moment

to make it not a difficult choice to avoid doing that. And so kudos to you for the advice that you gave that guy, man, and again, like I think all of these things are totally fine, but the more you do them, like the more you get your health right, the more you get your diet right, and the way that you feel in your body, how good that feels, at least for me, man, like I don't want to disrupt that. And it's almost like if I go in one of these benders and if I do drink a lot,

or if I do eat a lot of crappy food, then I'm going to feel like crap. And so it's helpful to be reminded in my body of why I might not want to do those things. Dude, and then to your point, you're chasing it the next day, right? Then you're having way too much caffeine to try to keep yourself awake or something worse. You got to take five extra nicotine pouches or cigarettes or whatever. You know what I mean? Then all of a sudden, you're chasing it the next day when you wake up in the morning and you are in that great place,

you're just, your body doesn't crave it. And I'll leave it with this, you know, what works for me is just, I have a very simple mantra that's nothing unique, but works for me is just act as if, right? Like what would the version of me do? That's a fucking rock star. Yep, right like that wakes up in the morning crushes the day You know on top of everything getting everything done getting back to people being the dad I want to be being the partner. I want to be beat, you know, etc, etc Like what does that guy do? Yep, and then just act like him. I'm not him Yes, I do fuck up all the time, right? I'm and I'll probably never be that guy because that might be an unattainable goal. However, if

I act as if I'm him, I make a lot more of the right decisions and I literally said pizza is another one for me to do. I love pizza like just about everybody, but it just does not work for my body. It just all the it, it just, I just hate, I hate the way I feel. So like, I just, when I look, when people are having pizza, I just look at it and I'm just like, I literally say to myself like,

the version of me that's a killer doesn't eat pizza. So I'm just not gonna do it. And it's like finding these little things and it'll be different for everybody, but you find these little things that you can say to yourself in moments. And man, it's amazing what one little phrase, one little thought can steer you away from these negative things. What I'll say is that the closer that you get to that rock star version of you though,

the less it's acting as if and the more it's actually just acting because that's how that person and how that version of you acts in those situations. Yeah, I completely agree. Dude, I cannot wait for your book launch party that you're having. I'm so excited. Excited. It's going to be awesome. Yeah, it's going to be great to IRL a little bit and just happy for you and everything you have going for the book. Tell people where they can find the book. Can you pre-order it now? Give them all the details and guys,

everything that Derek shares, make sure, you know, just scroll down, whether it's YouTube or wherever you're listening to the podcast, I'll have all the links in the show notes. Thanks, Ryan. Yeah, so the book is out June 3rd. It'll be everywhere. You can get books for the most part.

I'm giving away some bonuses, some pre-order bonuses on my website, DerekCoburn.com. And I'm already starting just to share and write a lot more even beyond the ideas in the book. It feels really nice to be in a place where I don't really have anything to sell. I just get to write and share and contribute. And I mean, maybe I will at some point,

but for now I just like being in a position of being able to give a lot of the wisdom, the ideas, the knowledge that I've been able to pick up over thinking about this topic for 20, you know, 20 some years. So I would love to connect with any or all of you over there and can't wait for my book to get out in the world and for, you know, hopefully some of the ripple effects that will create. Yeah, guys. And while you're pre-ordering, Let's Retire Retirement, also pick up

Networking Is Not Working, which is another incredible book that you wrote as well. And that was actually, when that book came out, it's the last time you were on the show. So we'll have to make sure there's not such a big gap between appearances because I love having you on. Our conversations are always awesome. But dude, appreciate the hell out of you. So happy for you guys.

I've read the book. I got a early copy, incredible. You're gonna take a ton away from it. And I'll tell you what else. This is a sneaky side benefit to Derek's book. You gain a lot of cocktail party fodder, like stats that you can use to sound super smart when you're in cocktail parties as well.

And I've already used a couple of them. So that's just a little bonus that you get as well. There's a lot of these little stats that you can use in cocktail parties if that's important to you. Oh, yeah. All right. Appreciate you, bud. Be good. Thanks so much, Ryan. Appreciate you. In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home